Welcome to Playing With Fire, the podcast for people who are ready to custom build their love. We're talking about Non-Monogamy, however you design it, as an individuation opportunity. Want to leave the default and make your life spectacularly you, you're in the right place. Can we have an amazing group program? I absolutely love it. It's the best. I love being in it.
But when I say group program, so many people are like already they packed their eggs, they've shut the door, they're like no, no thank you. First off, I am not going to share my private business with a group of rentals. That's not happening. Second, my stuff is special. It's different. And also, I don't even know whether I need any help doing this opening up stuff anyways. And let me say, I actually agreed with you. If those are your thoughts, I agreed with you several years ago.
Several years ago, I was working as a coach, I was working privately with everyone and getting good results. I enjoyed the results I was getting, but something seemed like I was struggling with something. Because I thought at first I was struggling because I just, I do like to teach. I like to be in groups of people where I'm guiding, leading where I can. But then someone challenged me on the idea that private work was actually a good idea for this.
And they challenged me by saying, well, don't you tell everybody that they need to find community? Yes, I do. We even work on that. In the private work. That's a good point. And so many of my clients were struggling because they didn't have community and they didn't know how to find community. And some of them really couldn't find community or not in ways that felt safe to their body minds. So I gave it a whirl and I started the year of opening.
And it turns out that I actually now require my private clients to be part of a group. And I want everyone to listen to this episode of playing with fire because it is unlike any other. This episode is the voices, actual voices from people, five people who have already completed the year of opening. Five people coming in from very different walks of life, different backgrounds, different desires, different needs, different imaginations of what relationship are.
And this is just their can-ed share about what they didn't know, they didn't know, and what they got out of the process of being part of a group. Even if you're not going to do the year of opening, I would listen to this. I would listen to the stories of how people experienced the shift, the paradigm shift, from a monogamous mindset, from a monogamous paradigm that ruled their whole way of thinking to what if I co-create relationships with everybody I want to, in the ways I want to?
It was so much fun to listen to everybody's stories. I heard them along the way in each cohort, but listening to their own reflections of how that all landed for them was fun. It was really exciting and fun. So this episode is like we said, five different people. There are two couples and one individual who went through on their own, and what we've done is we did these interviews individually, and then we've created a panel-esque episode out of them.
So you can hear these different voices and different answers to the questions. I hope that you come away feeling like you understand better what it's like and why someone would courageously take the step to be in a group. I hope that you can learn something from the moves, the things that people said they didn't expect, the ways they didn't know they were going to be changed. So yeah, dive in.
So what was going on in your life when you first came across Jolie's work and entered into the year of opening? So I was in a newish relationship very much madly in love with my partner, still am. But I had recently come out of an abusive marriage was unpacking a lot of trauma, and I was with my partner, we were long distance, and we were both kind of, we did not want to be, we met each other not wanting to be in relationship.
And I was the one who was like, well, we could just be non-monogamous. And at that point, I had been dating a lot of people, or not committed to anyone person thinking that it was not thinking that it was non-monogamy, but just kind of very casually dating people. Which by the way, I love that, not enough people recognize that you still get to date casually, and that doesn't mean that you're non-monogamous. Yes. These are two distinct experiences. For sure.
And I was just not exclusive is what I would say. And I was open with people about that. But I had read Polysecure. And so I told Ryan about the book, et cetera. And he read it and he was like, this is amazing. I didn't even know that this was possible, like life like this is great. And that was before we even ever met in person. And so, plashword, we say that we messed up and fell in love and we did not, we did not mean to, we didn't want to.
But we found ourselves both of us processing our own relational trauma, well also madly in love with the other, while also wanting the long distance was not traditional, especially me having kids and not having a plan to move closer. And then also on top of that, the non-monogamy, and I was dealing with just so much pain.
It was incredibly painful and I was constantly questioning whether or not I could do a relationship with that way because it felt like I was either lying to myself or putting myself through undue pain. And I didn't know if this was a trauma response. I was just, I was coming up against all the things. And so Ryan actually found you on Instagram. And you were offering free, meet with me for free. And he signed up and then he told me, he said, okay, listen, I just signed up to meet this person.
You can come with me if you want or not, but I figured what's there to lose. And I said yes immediately because I was looking for someone to tell me that I wasn't crazy or to either be like, oh yeah, this isn't for you. Like, oh honey, yeah, right? And I probably trust other people with opinions. That's a really hard thing to do when somebody is not, like when you're not sure, like to view that from the inside and say, I don't know, is this even possible?
Is this, am I actually damaging myself to get now what you don't know? So important, but also a lot of us are only exposed to people who have a monogamous paradigm. So to only get their perspectives, even if they're wonderful therapists, wonderful helpers, wonderful friends, if their bias is going to make it impossible for them to not, yeah, have a opinion. Right. Well, it's like, oh, here's the problem. I have a guy. You know, stop poking yourself in the eye. Look, you can do it. Right.
No, since this is, since like the science and research is so monogamous based, like, it was even scary to Google. Yeah. Yeah. As even people who I would say consider themselves to be non-monogamous professionals, there were still ones that like the framing of it and the approach of it. I didn't, I was like, there's so, I don't, I don't quite trust it, you know? And so, yeah, it just felt like there was a lot of scary stuff out there.
And as I was learning to trust myself again and believe myself and reconnect with myself, I just was in a very tender place. And so that's where you both enter. Okay. In a tender place, I think that's really familiar for others. Like, whether you were, whether that someone brought this to you and you're like, wait, you want me to what now? Because that'll bring up your tenderness. Or whether you're like, I think this is what I need. But you said you were unpacking your trauma history.
You're like, you're doing your work. And frequently, non-monogamy or the introduction of it happens at a time when we're also unpacking other stuff. Like, that's not uncommon. The question for me is, can you hold the tension of like, yep, I'm going to do both of these things and which means I'm going to have to pace myself. And I can't just try to be this perfect polyamorous person. I'm going to have to allow both of these paths to unfold simultaneously.
Which by the way, I think you did a magnificent job of holding that and naming it and not hiding, not trying to hide it or be perfect in group. You know, trying to like, no, no, I got this. I got this. I can do it all. Yeah. I appreciate you saying that. I don't know how I could have done it otherwise. Also, it's like, I'm going through this too. I remember you telling me, I think when we first met with you, to give you a year.
You know, and I see it's similar to like the MVAs of like, I think I made an agreement with Ryan or to myself that like, I wasn't going to break up with him. Yep. And I feel like we, I don't know if there was, if there was that as part of group, but like in that year, like, and. And so like that kind of that container created the safety for me to rail against it as much as possible. Because then I was like, okay, I'm going to choose to trust Jolie.
Even if I can't trust myself in this moment, I'm going to choose to trust Jolie. And at the end, you know, like, I'm like, no, this is not for me. At least like, I know that I, I did it, but I can't fully know that if I don't allow myself to just feel at all, to just go for it. I was floundering. I had been in a triad at the time and we had tried a couple of different resources, including group therapy. That kind of devolved into a blame Bobby kind of session, which wasn't very helpful.
And I knew that we weren't, there was a lot we didn't know, but we needed some kind of guidance. We had tried to look up resources on the internet. But again, we just weren't all on the same page. The triad fell apart. My husband at the time. Ended his relationship with my girlfriend and his partner at the time. And our marriage was on the rocks. And I wanted to find some resources to help us to just have a better relationship with each other. I feel like something had gone awry.
And there was a day long, I found it on Instagram, a day long session. And I'm drawing a blank on the name of the, of the influencer who is, who is also poly. But they had a day long session and Julie's session was one of these. It was Elizabeth Cunningham. That was the name. Yes, Elizabeth Cunningham. And in that day long session, I was taking so much notes. Like I write in my iPad and I was, it was an excellent session.
And after that, I followed up with Julie because I, her work on, like the stuff you were talking about with jealousy, like that was one of the things that really was striking for me. And I kept thinking, yeah, I know jealousy is mine to deal with. I just don't think it's only mine to deal with. Like I think there were some parts that were the responsibility of my partners. But I couldn't, like I just, I knew I needed to name something, but I couldn't name it.
And then listening to your session, Julie, I was like, I think I can find some help there. And that's how I reached out and got in touch with you. I really appreciated, I remember those early days. I really appreciated you being so vulnerable and real about how much pain was present for you. It was not, I remember thinking this is a person who knows that something's wrong, wants to put in the effort, wants to do the work, but maybe doesn't even know where.
Like we're to begin because so much had gone off the rails. Yes. It's a hard spot to lean into and I'm, yeah, I moved that you were willing to show up for yourself that way. I feel like everything had just gone so wrong it couldn't get a whole lot worse. I might as well get into it and do the hard stuff and hope for better. We were pretty confident we were 100% empty nested at that point.
So right, our children were grown in flown although there was like a six week stint where one of them came back for a little while in the middle of the work. So I was pretty sure it wasn't positive, but we were in this space of, you know, we got married when we were 23. So let's even go back to that space. Yeah, just right. That could be a whole another thing.
But so fast forward to now it was what a year and a half ago at this point, we found ourselves in this space of okay, we have a great light, but one of the areas that felt like there was still some room for growth and deeper understanding of ourselves was in how we related to one another sexually. So we were in that space and we were also like we, I have a friend who had recently stepped into the BDSM community and really dear friends.
As she was going through that, she was sharing all of her learnings and processes and it was some point along in talking to her that she sent me your TED talk. The good old conversion talk. First introduction was and honestly that was probably two years before like we were ready, right? So then there's something that came into the field, it was there, but there was no like initial like oh my gosh, we got to do something about this or with this, right? It was just kind of there for a while.
Do you want to add anything? Yeah, and we were kind of to speak for me, you know, emptying, nesting and then I felt like we were stuck in a routine of sexually, you know, just the same thing over and over a different day and it was getting boring to me. I wanted to explore more into myself and what I really wanted and was drawn to like Kankin, even considering my sexuality, all kinds of things, just like everything was you know, up for grabs to explore and you know, then we found out about you.
I think we were coming home from somewhere and we took your little quiz about how to you know, which is the quiz that you open your relationship. But we ended up having a call with you later that week and you know, it just kind of snowballed you know from there and you know, I just love that you both took your time. There was no rush, you were presented with the idea that there was exploration, but you didn't rush, you allowed it to unfold.
Yeah and we're, you know, we've been doing the same thing, you know, in this marriage just you know, with the relationship escalator, you know, and we're looking for, you know, thinking outside the box and you know, so that's, and we were still, you know, we were still very happy to get you know, that's what I would draw a real highlight on there.
You when I first talked to you, I remember you both just being so in love and so happy and so successful by all the outer measures that the world could possibly ask of you. You've done all the things and you were still doing them. You there was no, oh, you know, this just doesn't work. You appeared to really want to up level in some way and you kind of didn't, you seemed to me like you weren't even quite sure what that meant exactly.
Yeah, we didn't know what it meant, you know, and we were very intrigued to, I was very intrigued to, you know, learn what we were going to learn from the year of opening and even though not knowing what we want to do with it. We tried to be succinct with that a lot, but I had been, it started a long distance, open relationship and I had been going on for six, seven months, something like that. And it was my first experience with it.
I kind of heard the concept before, but when I met my now partner, the first time we talked on the phone, she just kind of mentioned it and gave me a book to read. But I was in a place where I did not want a relationship. That's the last thing I was looking for. I was recently widowed and just kind of in a place where I just didn't want to be responsible for somebody, I didn't want to be in a relationship.
And so I was just kind of dating and having fun and I ended up falling in love with somebody. And we kind of talked through a way that we could kind of both be our own people and still see what we had together. But you know, by the time I discovered Jolly, we had been doing it and we were okay. But I would call it rudderless, just kind of being buffeted by the storm and just kind of like taking each wave as it came. And a lot of how we operated was, well, we don't really know what we're doing.
We don't know what our boundaries are. I just, I was in a place where I didn't know what I wanted or didn't want until I experienced it. And that was working ish, not really, but kind of. And I discovered, I think it was the pillars of opening and kind of read through it. And I was like, oh man, there's a guide book here and I read a handful of books. But it just, you know, there's reading a book and then there's experiencing life.
And so I would say that like, you know, I was practicing nonmenogamy, but I didn't have a coach to use the sports reference. Just very fresh and just kind of, you know, doing whatever came up. So what was happening for you in that experience? Did you feel, you said rudderless. Did you feel enthusiastic about it for yourself? Like were your concerns more about your own experience or about like continuing in a, in a, in a particular path with this new person who you were caring about?
Now I was, I was really excited. I was excited for me. I was excited for all the opportunities that I felt that I had. And I was, I was excited that I felt that I could fall in love with this person. And not feel trapped or caged. And because of that, one thing, we had a motto early on that was just, fuck it, hurt me. And so I was just excited to be doing all of it. I felt fresh and new and exciting. And there was a lot of pain and a lot of, you know, difficult moments.
But overall, no, I was, I was thrilled and I was enthusiastic and I was able to, relationships I'd had previous to that. I felt like I was always kind of keeping an arm out. And I would, you know, I would bring somebody in, but only so much. And if they kind of reciprocated to that level of, okay, let's, let's push this back a little bit. And with what we had kind of talked through initially, I didn't feel that.
And I was so excited to just like fully profess and explore all the feelings I was having for this person without being worried about the door shutting behind me and just, you know, the, oh no, admit a terrible mistake. So no, I was, I was definitely excited. So that, maybe that brings us to our next question. Yeah. So, so what were you hoping to learn or change? I was looking for mostly ways to deal with what was going on inside of me.
I was feeling a lot of jealousy, seeing my girlfriend get things from my husband that I had wanted in my own relationship, but thought I could never have. And so I kind of just accepted that. And I was also an individual therapy at the time. And one of the things I was working on was actually voicing my needs. And so it's like the intersection of, of me stating what I needed, but also understanding the dynamics of being in a triad.
It was, I wanted to, I wanted to find a way to, to make it all work. I felt like I was, I was juggling and the balls were in the air, but they weren't all equally weighted. And so it's just like, I didn't know how much effort to put into whichever parts. And like I wanted help figuring out, you know, okay, this, this ball is a little heavier.
You want to put a little bit more effort here and, you know, just to understand how to, to move things in a more balanced way because it wasn't, whatever we were doing wasn't working.
Yeah. I'm, I'm curious, Bobby, what, when you were in that stage where you were doing your individual work and naming, I feel like you're naming that you were in the midst of a lot of justice jealousy, feeling and actually seeing you had lots of evidence that your partner could do was able to do the things that you'd been asking for, but they weren't willing or able to do them for you. How, how did it shift for you to start having a place to at least name that?
Did that help change it or, or wasn't actually frustrating? I really don't know how it felt for you to come to the awareness, to have what, we put a name on it, but now you have to look right at it. How did it feel to look right at that justice jealousy? So by the time I had gotten to the point where I could identify that what I was feeling was justice jealousy, the triad had dispandaled.
My husband and I were already in the separation phase of divorcing, but I remember a part before that, before we got to the divorce stage where I was like, okay, all right, he just doesn't have it in him for me. That's okay. It's okay. I just wanted to hear some kind of confirmation that, you know, it just wasn't there. That I, that I just, I feel like I needed to hear the confirmation that it wasn't there so that I would know that it's okay to seek it elsewhere.
But we were in such a dynamic where I couldn't get that confirmation. And even when I got to the point where I asked for what I needed, I was like, okay, I see that you don't have this for me. While I was going to be in your program, actually was not going to be dated. That was one of the things that I stated going into the program was just like, I wouldn't be dating. My focus would be on our relationship, you and me husband. And I wanted to put the focus there.
But when I identified that, okay, you didn't have this, this care and nurturing and romantic way of giving in you for me anymore. I wanted to be able to seek it elsewhere. But it's not like I needed permission. I wanted some kind of acknowledgement that that he sought within himself, that he didn't have that for me and that it was okay for me to go find it elsewhere because I shouldn't have to give up my desire to have those needs met because he isn't capable of doing it for me.
And so it was just like, that that's what I wanted from there. Yeah. I heard you then and I hear you now, I hear you now with all the wisdom of now many, many months, having worked actively on this, the wisdom of seeking, wanting validation, just of what you were like, I feel this, I see this, this looks true. Can you, my partner, just validate that this is true. You don't need to fix it. And you validate that this is true so that we can make a new normal together.
We can negotiate some new path together. And I want to acknowledge that it didn't go the way you wanted. And not all relationships continue when faced with a true reckoning. And I give you a lot of credit for sticking with the work of learning relationships in the face of not getting that validation, not getting to hear, hey, no, I'm not available to provide you with a romantic connection. I'm not available to provide you emotional validation. I just, I saw you choose yourself. I did.
I can't imagine a stronger choice to make in the face of all that pain when it might have been tempting to people please defon, to lean in and just sacrifice or murder yourself to the relationship, not even to your partner, but to the cause of the relationship was really courageous to watch. Like in short, everything. I'll use like a work analogy or school or any time if you are the best at what you're doing in a room of people, that's a very difficult way to learn.
And you can learn, but that's a tough slow road. If you drop yourself into a room of people who are all much better than you, you're going to learn very quick and you're going to see, you know, a ceiling you never imagined. And so I think, I think really what I was craving and what books couldn't provide is just real every day people and the things that they were working through.
As well as not that I leaned on, you know, necessarily other people's experiences, but it was nice to see people who had been in similar situations and had come out of them and had moved beyond that. So I don't know that there was anything specific that I came in wanting to learn, but I knew that there was a lot to learn. That's a good spot to be to know that you don't know what you don't know yet. And you just need to be in some context where you could be exposed to it.
That's a strong learning position. That's a strong learning position and the idea of coming in like, I don't know what I want to learn because I don't know what there is to learn, but I'm going to pay attention. Like coming in like that, that's awesome. Yeah. And it showed. I want to offer back that it showed in your approach to you would sometimes have some either resistance or some like, I don't know, I don't know that that makes sense.
And I would, I witnessed you allowing yourself to be in the resistance of it or in the, in the, I don't know whether that's going to work. And to just stay there and not force yourself to pretend that you already knew the answer or you already had it figured out and just be in that uncomfortable place of not yet knowing. And from my position as, you know, a guide in that moment, watching you do that also fed the group.
They watched you sit in that discomfort and I saw other people respond like, wow, okay, maybe we can just be with this and not lose hope that there will be a beyond that there is something next. So that was something really strong that you brought to the group. And I'm grateful for it. Thanks for saying that. I think a memory that spurred is that particular time. I was also really open to being challenged. I felt so confident about my relationship.
But I also knew that there were a lot of things that, you know, from the outside may seem, you know, that we start again. I wanted people I knew and trusted and loved to with care challenge every decision I was making because I felt so confident that I wanted them to find something. Like, if you find something, I'm happy to hear it because I don't want to hide from anything. I want everything up front and taking that into the class like I was ready to be challenged.
And if there was something that I didn't agree with or that sat wrong with me, I wanted to sit with that and find out why and just take that, take that heart. Yeah. Well, I know it mattered to me and I watched it change how some people who were experiencing a resistance that would have been more passive. Like, I'm just engaging. I'm going to drop out. I'm going to drop back. Stay more present.
Yeah, you helped demonstrate that in the group, it was okay to challenge because as Jolly was saying, there are people who are like, no, I shouldn't challenge. I shouldn't like, you know, rock the boat and you're like, I have a question. I have a concern. I'll have a thought. I don't think that's going to work at all. I think it's going to work. And so everybody else got to observe that and then relax into asking their own questions.
And that also got, like, give me a chance to be opposed, which I really appreciate. Like, when I'm, when I'm in that, like, educator role, there's a power dynamic there and some people just will not say, like, that's not working for me. That explanation doesn't work or I don't think that that holds water in my situation at least. And one of my goals is to show that these are just, these are consciousness methods. Like, you're just, you're going to apply them to your own relationship.
I'm not the expert of your relationship. I'm an expert on relating. And so you provided that pushback that let me make the space more courageous. And I can't do that without people to be in that spot of like, yeah, I'm going to push a little, I'm going to be a little resistant. And I'm just really glad we get to also name that here because I think that's something that people don't always expect in groups.
They expect that the, the, the guide, the teacher to be like, want to be the expert and not be challenged. And that's very much not how I hold myself. But how do you show it? How do you demonstrate it other than in class? So this was an interesting question for me because I didn't know what I was getting into and because we were just totally, totally novices, beginners in this whole realm. And you know, coming from a conservative upbringing and, and of all tradition and everything.
And so I guess the, the main thing I was hoping to, hoping to learn from this experience is, how can we do this and then still have, and still stay happily married and still have a great, you know, relationship that we've always had. And if anything else, make it even stronger, you know, because of our new knowledge and this new way of thinking outside the box for us, you know, that's, so, so yeah, that, that was kind of what I wanted to learn. And my, it's different.
But I kind of thought it might be what, what was on your mind? What did you want to learn? So right though, mentioned the kink arena. Right. So when he brought that up, I wasn't, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I guess I wanted to understand whether I had the capacity for that and what that like may or may not look like because my initial thing, and probably also kind of why I was looking into this was, well, maybe if this isn't something I want to do, I can outsource it. Right.
I can give that job to somebody else is kind of energetically what was going on for me there. And I, so I guess I was hoping to learn whether I had the capacity to be in an open relationship and if the answer was yes, kind of what that would really look like. Yeah. I, I hold in such tenderness the idea that you were willing to just be in the question. And I think what you just said is really important, just being able to entertain your capacity. Right.
And that brings me to that first pillar of opening that we talk about in the salon. Can you be in self consent for the exploration? You don't have to decide to do any particular thing in opening or in BDSM or anything, but if you can consent to be in being in the exploration, then everything opens up. That's it's beautiful. And I, I love learning, right? And my, my North Star for my life is the term know thyself or is the phrase know thyself. Like I want that's my deepest desire.
So as the work started unfolding, I could see that this was also a path to knowing myself at a deeper level. So that was really when the buy-in happened for me when I saw that that was going to be part of it. Yeah. So I got to ask the follow up then, was that your experience? Do you know yourself better now? Yeah. And I still think there's more to learn. I agree. I agree.
Yeah. The two of you consistently demonstrated that you were in, you're in that constant learning state, which was beautiful from my perspective. It was wonderful to witness. And I watched you go through some discomfort and stay in the well. I can at least be in the learning, even if the things we're doing right now are uncomfortable. I can tell you. You were, you were role models in that way. Absolutely.
We saw you, yeah, sit your way through discomfort, picking up everything you could to learn about yourselves. It's really beautiful to watch. Thank you. Thank you. So that's an interesting thing because I don't feel like I approached it thinking, what do I want to be different? I think, I mean, I guess this is similar to the same thing, but I wanted to figure out, I came in wanting to figure out whether like am I non-minimum? I know. Um, but then also like, am I hurting myself?
Am I, you know, am I crazy? And then also are like, how can I do? I don't want to say do this better in like be better, but like how can Ryan and I, we were working so hard already. We were, we had read so many books. We'd already on our own without anyone telling us, had already written a relationship agreement, like very early on. That was kind of like, we need to have this on paper because there's just so many moving parts.
And I think I was like exhausted by like trying to figure it out and like second guessing myself and then also like reading all of the stuff and just being like, well, if they knew our situation though, would they still be saying this? Yes. And so like, I wanted to have that, I wanted to be able to bring all my doubts to someone and be like, okay, yeah, but I don't think you've encountered this case in your research.
You know, I appreciate that so much because we really do all come with the, like we have unique histories and then we're bringing two or more people together in one constellation and stuff is going to get unique. So that's not incorrect. And the uniqueness does not necessarily mean that it's insurmountable. And but we need, I think we actually need that. I think it's beautiful that you were willing to entertain the question when you were already exhausted. You were already tired. So way to go.
Thank you. Thank you. It was, it was a, like a different kind of a job, not exhaustion, but it was a different kind of work. It was a relief to not have to guide, to not have to like be on our own and figure that out. So having, having, again, I think I borrowed container from you. I don't know if I've been used, if I used that before, but having this, the container of the group.
And I guess like what, if I think about what I wanted to be different is I wanted, I wanted more assuredness in myself that for myself that I could pursue a relationship like this, like a non-monogamous relationship, apart from like, because I wasn't evaluating whether I wanted to be with my partner, I wasn't, I wasn't, whether I wanted to be with Ryan.
It was like, I wanted to figure it out for me because it felt like there was just so much going on that I was like, this feels like there's something here, but I can't put my finger on it. And so I think I entered just like wanting to have that support and have people who had done research, you know, who were professionals, that I could regularly bring things to and kind of like keep, just keep, have a safe place to work it out.
So we've talked about the container, what was it like to be a part of a group all talking about all this relationship stuff? I mean, I think that that strikes to the previous question of what I was looking for and that was kind of secondhand real world issues and some of them, I don't want to say, you know, unsolvable, but you know, really difficult things that people were working through.
I just, I didn't have people who are understanding of me being non-minogamous, especially after being widowed. I feel like I got kind of a pass when I would tell people that, like, oh, of course you're doing that now. That's the not a makes answer.
You should do whatever you want, but I didn't have anybody, if there was anybody I went to confide in, I felt like I had to get them up to speed first and even then they still weren't fully, you know, at a level to be able to talk through difficult issues. And so having people willing to share things that were going on in their lives in this area, just to sit and listen was huge. I mean, that's probably the biggest draw for me.
And I think as any group does, it took some time to build, but you know, over the months and kind of the gentle shares and stuff, it relatively quickly became a really safe space for just about anything. And it was really comforting to have that community and just to kind of, again, not being the smartest person in the room, being able to have, here's a situation that I'm dealing with, can anybody speak to this? And you know, having multiple people be like, yeah, I've dealt with other time.
I'm dealing with that right now. Here's what worked for me and here's what didn't, and maybe it'll work for you and that doesn't. And then I don't know if this is necessarily the group, but kind of having that, I know that once a week at this time, I have this space that I can have it. And so even when I'm not there, I know that it exists for me. And especially on the days where I didn't feel like saying anything or I didn't even want to be there, it was nice to just kind of sit and listen.
And it was also a really good way to, as somebody who, you know, it felt rudderless or being buffeted or the fucking hurt me ethos of like, let's just do things until they feel bad and then kind of work back and we can figure out boundaries that way. Just listening to other people talk and hearing something, we're like, oh, respect, that will never work for me. Like I've just discovered a boundary and I didn't have to do something that hurt me to find it. I just love that so very much.
I feel like when I'm talking to people about being in a group and they're, and they're feeling scared about sharing their most vulnerable stuff. Like yeah, but one of the things you'll, you'll potentially get is that moment where you don't hurt yourself for your partner because you witness someone else going through something and we so rarely get to do that in our mundane lives.
And I watched it happen in Yerko, who are in particular, like there were several times where somebody said, oh, well, I'm not going to do that. So thanks. And I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that's happening right now. And it's something that I think it's hard to believe will happen. But also you were very vulnerable about like just saying what was. I remember witnessing you, Andrew partner, just call yourselves in on like, hey, I'm out of integrity in this boundary holding right here.
I'm out of like, and using that safe space to be a place to just say, yeah, we're going to mess up. Can we now do that and be witnessed? And it was, I mean, you were creating something with them. I can't do that. Like I can't do that top down. You have to do that together. I can just provide the space. So I'm so grateful you were willing to.
And I want to clarify one thing in there is that it's not there were things where somebody would share just a facet that they loved about their relationship. Like I'm not talking about bad things are being out of integrity. Like somebody would just like, oh, this is my favorite part of like how I'm doing my relationship. And that would strike me. I don't want that. That's right. So it's not even more. I love that even more.
Yeah, like something that you could celebrate for them, but still be like, oh, yeah, with absolutely no judgment. I'm so glad to hear this because now I'm able to be like, oh, yeah, now I know that I don't want that for myself. And and then also things that I'd be like, that sounds really difficult, but maybe there's a part of me that wants wants to do that. Maybe that's something I could work on in the future, but just that whole range that I would have never been to exposed to otherwise.
You know, I we mentioned to you that we're in the plant medicine community and those groups can get very intimate where you're sharing very vulnerable. And so I've I've gotten my feet wet in that those spaces. Now, however, you know, in this was a completely different space that, you know, we I had no knowledge of or expectations of, you know, I just didn't know what I didn't know.
And then being in the, you know, the zoom group with a bunch of other new people, you know, it was, you know, helpful that I had been in the, you know, the spaces to get me through that. But it wasn't didn't seem too challenging, but the group in itself, it seemed there was a little slow to warm up. It took several weeks before I felt connected with the group.
And then, you know, by the end of the year, it's, you know, like when I've done, you know, the all cohort you're opening community calls and recognize someone from a course, hey, how you doing? Good to see you. You know, it's, you know, your family. And it's, it's, it, it merged into that family. Like we're on this bus together and take it to the end.
And just, you know, supporting and, you know, in the chats outside the chats, you know, through, you know, just, just, you know, continued support for everybody. And, you know, there was a wealth of information that the community supported when we had questions. We would just pose it out and then throw it into the, like, the signal space and, you know, got great response and feedback there. It's, so, yeah, I had a very positive experience with the group.
You know, even though it was, you know, slow to build the ramp up. Yeah. I love the slow build. It's, it's can be like at the beginning, it can be like, okay, who's going to be first? Who's, it's a little like going skinny dipping. Who's going to take off their clothes first? We know we're, we know what we're all here to do. Who's going to do it? I love that. I love that. And you know what?
I would say, I think Laura went first in our group and helped build community consistently, showing up to like just, okay, I'm just going to, I'm going to share this raw question, this thing I don't even know and like really helped build the, because I can't do that alone. I can only do it when everybody decides, okay, we're going in and it was awesome to witness. Yeah. I like group work, right? I have a background. I'm a certified life coach and I've run groups.
So it was nice to be on the other side of the table for that, right? Like I just, I know that shame happens in community, so it has to be healed in community. So that's where I think the group format is exactly the right format for this kind of work because it's one thing to sit alone and do the work and do all the things. But until you put it in practice in community, it's just like that's really where all the magic and the healing really happens.
So I, the group was never, the group work was never going to be a problem for me. Like that was, like it was more the, the content of it, but I knew once I could make peace with the content that being witnessed and, you know, there's wisdom in a group. So kind of to tag back to what Bill was saying, right? The one we can particular, I feel like we're talking about is when we were trying to figure out how to have the conversation with the kids.
Yeah. And how much group wisdom, how it was, like we pulled pieces from things, a lot of people said that created the space for us to be able to do that. So so really brilliantly and, you know, like we're celebrating how it went. It's, that was amazing to watch. And I think it, it actually, it's something that I get to witness throughout all the cohorts. I get to witness when there is, there is a wisdom in a group that is so much more than you could ever get out of a book.
It's why I don't sell my curriculum as a standalone course because I really believe that it is the collective wisdom that just creates something because that, I remember that moment and it was this weaving together of different people's experiences and their empathy, their deep empathy for your worry, your concern and your excitement and, and just being present to that. I remember just feeling like there's the tapestry of wisdom, right? They're just coming together.
No one person could ever create that, that is the beauty of group. It was amazing. It was, it was incredible. It was so, so helpful, so validating. It would not have been the same one on one at all. Because it really helps to put your own shit into perspective and to see like the things that other people are going through and just to be like, oh my god, like not like a, well, I thought I was screwed up. Kind of, we're like, oh my gosh, okay, well, it could be a lot harder right now. Oh, yes.
And that is true as well. And I mean, I'm sure that like, I, I, I, I saw other members like group, other members of the group, their faces when like certain things I would bring up. They're like, oh my god, yeah. So I think we all would have to do each other. Just it normalized it. It normalized the individuals and that that showed up role as we all are, but like complex, kind, amazing human beings and to have them like vulnerable, just expose all of these parts of their lives as well as as me.
It just like, it was an incredibly safe space. And it felt like it very quickly became not about whether I can do this relationship in this way with Ryan. And very, for me, like, very soon became like, oh, this is like serious work on myself that I need. And I'm doing it in community. That sums up my, like that was my, my, my, that was the hope. And I designed it and it is the thing I most frequently say to people is like, I, I know you're imagining my, like my private works expensive.
I, a lot of people are like, I wish I could, I wish I could afford that, but that's a lot. I'm like, okay, but the secret is this is a tenth of the cost and it's, it's more effective that that's the secret that like, it's hard for some people to accept that that's true, but time and time again, I hear at the end of the year, like, oh, you were totally right.
I needed to have people around me sharing and normalizing and creating a place where I could just say the thing and also witness my hard spots with my partner. When do we get to do that? We just don't, especially amongst peers. It's different when we're doing it in a therapeutic relationship. But when a peer says like, oh, I see, and I see you holding yourself accountable. Cool, way to go. Show me how, show, now show me. Like, let's, let's all witness this together.
I watched the two of you do that and really call yourselves in and be vulnerable to the group. Just saying like, yep, here's where I messed up and I want to, I want to be held in this space in my truth. And yeah, I just, I appreciate it so very much. It was really, really, really powerful. And I think one part that was very important for me was just with like all the questioning I was doing, you know, and also being someone who is an intellectual, does a lot of research. I can poke holes easily.
You know, if it's just like, well, I'm like, yeah, Jolly, of course, you're going to say that to me because like, that's your job or of course, you're like pro non monogamy. And you do a great job of saying like, I just want you to be open to choose, which I appreciate.
But to see, it's one thing to have someone tell you like, oh, well, I've seen this instance or that instance, but to like actually experience it and have people write and then to see the transformation in others as you're also doing it, I do spumps all over right now because it's just, it's incredibly powerful. I literally do too because that's, that is something we can't, I could not do that. And that's what you all create. Every cohort comes together. Twenty people or less.
We come together and create something that I could not create. I couldn't create it alone. I couldn't create it even with Ken trying to like somehow duct tape the container together. It's, it is something we literally co create. And then every cohort has its own vibe, has its own lessons. And I love that. I love witness. I feel very lucky to get to witness it.
But I, I really loved seeing how watching someone else make a mistake and like a mistake that they call out and they're like, ah, this is not who I meant to be. What could we possibly get from another adult human? There would be more valuable than that. Like that is, that is true growth work in witness. Yeah. Amazing. I think the existence of the group actually made it possible for me to do the work. What was happening before I found the year of opening was that I would be processing on my own.
And when I would have those moments of panic, like when I, when I recognized within myself that I had some codependent tendencies, like that hit me so hard. And we were still in the triad at the time. And, and I didn't have like the, the, the support that was there wasn't the support that I needed to, to help me deal with the fact that I just identified that in myself. Like I've tried myself on being this independent woman. I don't need nobody.
Um, and then to realize just like how codependent my relationship with my husband was, um, like that hit me really, really hard. And I think that being in the group, being able to share in this, it felt like such a safe and welcoming space in which to share what was going on with me. Not only could I get validation that my experiences, even though there were my experiences, they were, they were legit. They were, you know, very valid.
And, and that kind of helped me to, to go deeper within myself to explore what was going on under the surface, under the layers, to just keep peeling back the layers. Uh, I think the container of the group really helped me to do that because, you know, when I would get together on a Wednesday night, I knew that I was going to be sitting in there and I was going to be doing some work.
And yes, I would pick up the work again at some point during the week, but I feel like there was just this window of time where I could be vulnerable. And then I would close the window and I would get back to life. Um, and, and I didn't have to be carrying it around with me. Like, if I compare how I was processing when I was in group versus when I was reading the codependency book and doing the workbook and, and, and how heavy that felt doing it alone, just, it, it's night and day for me.
And so it's like the safety of the group that it really was that it was the safety of the group that I wasn't going to spiral into. I wasn't going to go down that rabbit hole of, of just like, this is so hard. This is so hard. This is so hard. This is so hard and not see any kind of light. Um, I think having it containerized in the group really helped me to be willing to do the work. That makes total sense to me.
I, it actually, it's reminding me too of a, you were one of the first people in that particular cohort to just decide to, what I, what I witnessed was you stepped in with both feet and, and your partner had joined with you originally and did not step in with both feet, did not want to show up for the unpacking of, of the, of the, all the stuff. We have to unpack our stuff in order to move forward.
And I watched you as, as that partner decided not to step in and then decided to leave the group, let, let alone your relationship, but just leave the group situation. I watched you do the thing that, that create, it's the thing I can create a space for it to happen, but, but people have to then do the hard thing of, I'm going to tell you all how this is hurting. I'm going to tell you how this is hurting and trust that you will see me, a person who has, yeah, made mistakes.
And I wish I'd done things differently sometimes, but hold me, see me, just, just see me. You don't need to tell me whether I'm good or bad, just see me. And I saw you like create some of that group energy by showing up that way. You, you created what became a really fantastically intimate cohort from my perspective. I felt like, that was the approach I went into therapy with as well.
I felt like if I don't bring up the thing that I need to unpack in this safe space, I'm never going to unpack it. And so it's just like, if I'm going to show up, then I'm going to show up. And I felt like there was so much going on inside of me. I needed to show up because it was, it was, it was eating me up inside. And I needed to work through it and I needed, I needed support to help me work through it. Yeah. I'd like to ask a hard question. And you might want to answer it, you might not.
It's totally okay. But let me grab some tea. Yeah, exactly. You know, it is not uncommon for me to have someone be interested in your opening as a way to save a marriage. That's because they've already opened, sometimes because they're trying to open as a way to deal with other issues. And you showed up and you were very clear that things were already on the rocks. It was really difficult in your world. And you've already been clear here. It didn't, that relationship did not continue.
And I'm curious how you would, like, how would you conceptualize that now? Was that good, bad, would you count that as success for you? Like, there's no words. I could put it in my own words. Like, what I think happened, but how do you conceive of this experience? I think that, like, I look at where I am today and how I am in relationship today. And I would say that the work I did within myself was successful. But my time in the program was successful.
I feel like I'm in an intentional relationship. And that's what I wanted. I wanted to be in relationships where my partner was choosing to be in relationship with me, where I was choosing to be in relationship with my partner, not that we were bound together by kids or a house or a mortgage or a legal structure. Like, we were actively choosing to be with each other. And my partner right now, like, also has done his own work and continues to do his own work.
And I feel the consciousness of that choice. And the emotional safety that it brings. And I feel like that's something that I hadn't realized was as important to me as it actually is. And it was through doing that work that I was able to really recognize where my values lay in terms of being in relationship with someone. And there was significant misalignment between me and my ex-husband.
And I feel like if he had stuck with it, we would have been able to unpack together because we did have a strong foundation. We were married for 15 years and it was 15 good years, mostly. But I feel like if we had done the work together, the outcome could have been different. I'm satisfied with the outcome that I got from doing the work. Yeah. I am incredibly proud of the work you did.
Not because you did it with me, but because I watched you choose to, you could have just like pulled the covers over your head and said, this is too hard. I now I need to deal with a divorce. I need to deal with healing from that. And I watched you just like stick with, I want my relationships, all of them to be better. And therefore, I want to know how I'm showing up. You did the self-awareness piece. Full-throated. You were so...
And I still see you like every time we connect, I'm so impressed with how you are continuing to speak truth. You're continuing to speak it to yourself and to hold the parts of you that are in opposition, that aren't on board with the way things are going. And that's hard, but I see you doing it and I'm just so excited for what that means for the world. Like you as a person being in the world, like just a skilled human at relating. I'm way to go, way to go. Yeah, thank you.
I'm looking forward to being in more relationships so that I can just, you know... I basically got my master's in relationships now, so we should totally date. That's it. That's just, that's basically my swagger on apps now. It's just like, I've done the relationship work. It'll be good to date me. I, there should be a badge. There should be a little U badge. Then we should just make a badge. Like you've been verified. Good job. I like that things.
Yeah. Yeah. The Bobby, Bobby gets my stamp of approval. Yeah. So, I have one last question for you and you can get as specific as you want around this or not. You might be more, you know, you might take a more high level look, but I'd love to hear about something that you learned or something that we practiced that made an impact on your relationships.
Maybe one of the tools that we learned that particularly landed for you or one of the methods that you started employing or a way that you look at the world differently. So, I want to say, girl, I was thinking about that today because I regularly think about this.
Honestly, so I will say I think one of the most powerful, treasured things was the Inter Council work and how I was reconnecting with myself and that inner work, I did not realize how many parts of me were screaming and getting just like poked at because of this relationship structure that just kind of, you know, poked everything that your society tells you that all of these things that were just kind of in there just started to like flare up.
And so, this very safe, gentle, playful, ongoing exercise of just being curious about who and who in you is talking, who's showing up, who's upset right now, giving them voices, allowing them to speak. Along with unpacking trauma, it was like coupled, it was just beautifully like supported. Instead of like feeling like it was competing, I was like, oh my god, this is what I meant to be doing right now. What a feeling. Yeah. And I've also taught that to my mom, like, giving you credit and stuff.
It's like, it's like, and now I'm like, which part, like we talk about our parts to each other. Yeah. Yeah. And this is why the inner council exists because I wanted to take complex psychology, Jungian psychology out of the analyst room. But I have to say, I got goosebumps when you said that just being able to ask yourself who in me think about my own beloved therapist, their green, he taught me to sit with that question when I hated it and to really personify.
And I had learned it in grad school, but then he taught me to sit with it in a gentle, playful way, like you're saying. And now that is exactly what I was hoping out of the inner council, rather than making it like, okay, so we're going to, like, we're going to therapist this. It really is designed to be a way for you to play with it. And my hope is that we all start taking this into our friendships and in with our children.
Oh my gosh, using that with my children, I don't know what you, but game changer to just let them know they don't have to try to be one unified whole. Like it's just too much burden. So I'm so grateful. So two things immediately come to mind for me. The first of them is looking at the purpose of a relationship. And when I start dating someone, my time is limited. I am essentially a single mom. I have my kids half the time. And I volunteer a lot because that's like part of my self care.
And so I look at the relationships that I'm exploring and what the relationships are bringing for me, what purpose are they fulfilling for me? And am I also able to fulfill a purpose that is relevant to the person I'm dating? And that has led me to deescalate a couple of relationships. But that's one of the things where I don't want to ever get into a relationship again where it's routine, where we're just in it because we're in it. Like it has to have a purpose.
So that was one thing that came up for me. Another thing that came up for me was the inter council. The inter council work just really, like that that landed so well for me because it helped me to really have conversations with parts of me that weren't getting a voice. I wasn't processing thinking of things from that perspective. And I have some inter council members that are more vocal than others.
But like that work, that I think is the thing that I still use the most right now, that and the NSI drills too, actually. Like I had a recent conversation with my ex-husband and I was amazingly impressed how, you know, just how well my nervous system just remained regulated during the whole thing. Whereas before the body of before would not have been able to get her words out because her emotions would have just been so much they would have choked the words. And so technically three things then.
Yeah, I love it. Bobby, they're right there. They're right at the top. You're using them. And that's the thing. We talk about this at the beginning of your opening. We talk about how, so this is, we want this to be practical. You need to go use all the, everything that's relevant for you. Go use it. And there's a lot of stuff we present. But it's, each of you has to decide, okay, what's landing for me? And what am I then going to actually use? What are the tools that matter for me?
I love, I mean, who needs NSI tools, the Neurosomatic Intelligence tools more than somebody dealing with someone we were in relationship with that we are no longer in relationship with. If we were in conflict before, we're going to be in conflict after. And when we have kids with them, we got to do it. Like I use NSI for my, my ex relationships all the time.
I'm so glad you're finding it a source of resilience because it's not about, it's not about doing it perfect, but a source of resilience because you don't deserve to suffer while you're having those conversations. Yep. I agree. I also, the way you did inner council was so, I still, like in our, in our group chat, you know, our group chats keep going. And I love hearing you, name those inner council members who are like, oh, we get stuff to say. We have stuff to say. We need to be heard.
And that's one of the ways that the community too can, when you, when you're at those parts of you, those voices, those pieces that weren't able to be heard even by you, it's great to hear them yourself. It's another thing altogether to have them feel witnessed by others. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's amazing. So I love that. And I love that you've been so willing to name, call it out and say, here they are.
I love that, that, that the group in the chat, like they, they have gotten to know my inner council members as well. And so it's like, when, when I'm sharing from the perspective of this council member, it's like, they get where I'm coming from. And that, that is, that is, it's not magic necessarily, but it's pretty dog enclose. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, it's definitely the magic of community and, and intimacy on the level of friendly, like the friendship intimacy that's built. And, uh, yeah.
Like seeking community outside of your dating pool. Good job. Oh, yes. Um, yeah. So where, where, where to start with this one? Um, I think like most practically the, the tools that I learned were kind of the biggest game changers. Um, just, uh, learning how to alert myself to being elevated. And learning how that, learning to just kind of keep an eye out for that in my body. And realizing that in myself before I start acting on that, um, that, that is invaluable.
More specifically the, uh, amago dialogue, um, was such a, like an instant game changer in, in my relationship. Um, I'm chatty and I can get really, I can get defensive, but I also feel like I have the answers. And so with those combined, you know, if my partner is bringing something to me, I'm immediately kind of all over them. Well, actually I meant this or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and, and just learning to sit and listen with the first time we did that together.
Um, it, it was like a revelation. Um, and I think we both felt heard and understood in ways that just hadn't happened before. Um, yeah. And that's a funny one because it can feel so clunky and then you do it, you're like, oh, right.
And I know it doesn't work for, I know it, it, you know, can work for not every tools for every person, but like for me and just how, um, how much I just want to explain myself, um, and how that was just, I was kind of stepping on my own feet and kind of smothering my partner with that. Um, so that was, that was you. I identify with that. Yeah. The, the, the Amago dialogue felt like magic to me. Mm-hmm. Oh, there's a whole other way this can go.
Just a way I never imagined once I stepped away from, like you said, that, that explaining that'll come later.
And, and not even, and not even using it all the time, but knowing that it's there if you need it and just being able, hey, do we need to have, you know, this specific style of conversation around this or not and being able to separate those out, um, helps like daily and then, you know, we have them, you know, maybe once a month, uh, you know, because we're able to, okay, no, I, I do feel hurt. We don't, you know, but just having that in the toolbox. Huge. Yeah. I like that.
You're differentiating between sometimes we hit a, we hit a speed bump. We got it, and we can acknowledge it and, and, and just knowing, yep, we got it. But to know that you have the tool also allows you to name, like, oh, this is a, uh, this is a problem that deserves applying the tool. Let's go. Right. Right. Right.
And, and, and, yeah, and if the, uh, if the topic has come up, you know, kind of more than once, or we start getting into anything circular, um, you know, we both know that we can, we can move to that. Um, and that, uh, we're not just going to spiral into that forever. We can do something about it. I love that. Um, I have, if I can share one more. Please. Um, projection and projection recall, um, was, I, I felt like, um, we're just going to use a bad analogy.
So I won't, um, uh, I was projecting so much and I just had no idea that that's what I was doing. And it took a lot of work and I finally got there and I noticed it in the moment. And then from that moment on, I started noticing it more and more. And then, um, once I was able to realize that and, you know, kind of feels like I, I confessed it to my partner.
Like I, I could see the weight lift from her through the realization and I was just able to, you know, so much of this is just a big, a big thing I learned. Is a lot of this is just on me and that's, that sucks to learn because it's so much easier if it's not your, no, that's, that's your stuff, man. Like you feel and do, it's like, oh, no, I have a lot of work to do here. And it's, it's doubly insidious because what I was projecting was, uh, my ability to be in a non monogamous relationship.
And, um, once I was able to see that and work through that, I just like so much of our conflict was kind of born out of that. Um, and I still have a long way to go with it, but that was, uh, uh, that, I don't know if you called it a tool, but, um, totally, I definitely do. Yeah. And it is. It's like a double edged sword or maybe, I don't know, a double edged bandaid because it does. It's like, oh, this sucks. It's all on me. On the other hand, there's something I can do to change it.
So there's this other side. Wait a minute. I actually have some influence over this and I can make things better. Right. And projection is just, it, it, it, it, it, it's so rotten because it's just taking all these things that are about me and that I need to work on and then putting them on my partner, making them think that they're feel that they need to work on that. And so I'm not doing the work and putting it on them.
And it's just this confusing, ugly, blaming mess and having that kind of drained away. Um, yeah, huge. I, I really appreciate you naming that and I want to verify that using it as a tool. So we, they know that word projection, we use it casually in, you know, common language these days just like, oh, he's projecting, they're projecting. But to, to think of it as a tool is to really empower yourself. Like, oh, it's, it, the projection is going to happen. That's natural.
It's a normal psychological process, a crappy one that we don't really love. But there it is. Like it's for a reason. It's so you can see your unconscious material. But the tool is I get to recollect it. I get to go do the recall on that. Bring it back and, and reclaim what is mine. And that's the piece that, that doesn't get talked about. And so we wind up in that cycle in our relationships that goes on and on and on. It's in for, yeah, like a whole 50 year marriage. And then we die.
So, way to go do on the work. Because it is, it's, the projection is the first step in a cycle. There's like this loop. And if you don't close the loop by recollecting the projection, that, the, the tool of like, okay, let me take the next step. But if you don't even know there's a step to take, you just keep, it's just like, it's just bouncing back and forth on mirrors. It's bouncing back and forth. It, it helped me to visualize it like I'm just asking her to hold on to like stones.
And so each thing is just like I'm putting another, you know, four pound rock in her back back. She's got to walk with it. And I'm four pounds lighter, even though it's my rock. And then, yeah. It's realizing that's happening and then recollecting like taking that back. Yeah. I love that. It's, it's a gift. And the thing is, it's what lets you get to know your actual partner. Like, because up till like when are projecting, we're not knowing our partner. We're knowing our projections on them.
Yes. So the, the joy of finding out who that person really is every time I take that rock back. And we have to keep doing it. Because we'll just, you know, we, that is the ongoing work relating. Yeah. Let's, we'd go. That's a really good point in that that I've forgotten to is because when you're doing that, you end up like correcting your ways based on your own projection. So you're, you're adjusting to what you actually need. And your partner's just, you know, kind of left there.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's, it's very solopsist sort of thing. Yeah. And I projected against each other for like three years before we really started to undo it. Didn't even know who we was. No, no idea. And it's like just a mirror. And then we started working on it. And we didn't have like, it wasn't as clear as Jolie has made it. But we worked our way through it. And it was like, Oh, there you are. Fascinating. That's like, Oh, you're not me. How amazing.
It's, it's nice to finally have a relationship with someone else. Right. And I'm going to be a little bit more of a mirror. What I found really interesting is, you know, when we learned everything, there was so much material. And, you know, we, we did it at a methodical pace. And, and so it was just a whole bunch of skills and everything.
You know, so when I, we, you know, came out of that, you know, we had all these skills and, you know, well, now it's time to put them into practice, but didn't exactly know how that was going to be until I, you know, I, I've been on a couple dates and all the things come up that we learned about. And I was like, aha, that's what that's for it. You know, we, you know, so we had an, a great, a mega dialogue, you know, they've said, I didn't know what that was. And now I do.
And now I know how to use it. And so wonderful tool. And it really helped us, the Neurosomatic Intelligence Drills. And I got, you know, that, that's, that's like magic. You use them at work. Yeah. And it's, it's a, it's a shame. The, the one that works the best for me is the demon clock. So I'm back in my office, clocking around, you know, and I love that so much. I've never been happier in this moment right now. And I'm very happy to have you around.
So yeah, and starting to really see the value of, of the things that we, we learned when we're putting it into practice. So yeah. So, what about you? Yeah, I agree with all that. And the, the specific tool I want to tag because like I have taken it, like you gave us the tip of the iceberg is the inter council. Right. So I have taken that and I'm studying IFS now and I'm looking at like, so that's to me where this whole know thyself, right?
So in some of the stuff we've been going through recently, I'm like, holy cow, I have a part that wants revenge. I had no idea. That's a good idea. People pleasing Laura has a part that wants revenge. I love that for you. So right, like I was like, okay, I love revenge. I see you. What do you hear to teach me? Right. We have a whole conversation. So the, the inter council and the work with the parts has just been priceless.
The, the greed. Yeah. I, I loved watching the two of you take to that individually because I, if I remember correctly and can remind me, if you, if you saw something else, please tell me, but I remember thinking that the two of you were, were pretty strongly enmeshed. There was like, there was your couplehood and I could see that there was a desire to differentiate, but it wasn't happening.
And then we got to the point where we did inter councils, which is just a way that I teach the basics of recognizing our multiplicity, right? And IFS internal family systems is a great way if anybody's listening is like, I need that right now. It's out there. You can go Google it. No problem. But I watched you to like see your, your selves differently and start expressing yourselves differently. It really seemed like it, it pealed apart some of the layers.
Yeah. So I could see you differentiated too, which was beautiful, wonderful. I'm very curious as we wrap up, if you, if you were going back to that beginning time when you were like, should we do this, should we bother? Like is this worth, because the thing is, it's mostly the time investment that I hear people being like, it's another thing to do in the midst of a busy life. What would you want to know back then if you could just go back and tell yourself?
If it's the time investment thing, it flies back. And you get into this nice routine every week where you're, so it, that's what I found. But yeah, I guess when you first start like anything, you've been like, oh my god, a whole year is to be like that. Yeah. And it does fly by. And the lessons we got out of it were just so valuable for us. And we didn't even know what we wanted to do, and it's still working its way out.
But we have those skills in place, and we have the resources and notion to go back and look things up, which I've done. And yeah, it's, I'm doing it again. Awesome. Laura, what about you? So for me, it was just the late hour. It wasn't the time commitment. Like I struggled a little bit with, I'm not really in bed at that time. So I wasn't, because I saw it as an investment in myself.
And so for me, building that kind of time into my calendar is already a priority and already something that I do on a regular basis. So it wasn't the time. It definitely wasn't the money I felt like it was priced very, very, very fairly, right? Because like I said, I know coaching work and, right? I know that. Yeah, my goal has been to make it accessible. I want more people to have this in their grasp. I want to say from my perspective, you have achieved that, like that, and it feels accessible.
I think that what I would tell that version of myself, if I was spring in her ear, like, I would just say to her, you know, I know you don't really know where this is going. But trust me, right? Like you'll get to the end of this and feel like you've got more than your money's worth out of it. That, you know, the value is going to be more than you can imagine. Oh, that is so worth listening to again. Just love hearing their voices.
And thank you to everyone who participated and answered our questions and shared their stories. Yeah. And you're standing right where those folks were standing months and months ago. I want to encourage everyone right now. Go to yearofopening.com. Grab your seat at my next free salon. Book a call with me to talk to me directly. I enroll cohorts three times a year. There are four cohorts that enroll, but three times a year.
And so it's really important that you book your call now, even if the next cohort enrollment date is still a ways away because you'll start getting support and being part of our community calls and our community chats as soon as you join. So get yourself a call. Go to yearofopening.com. We talk to you all the time. It is absolutely imperative to me that we get to hear from you as well. Yes, please. So we'd love to invite you to join us. Join Kan and I. We're holding monthly. Ask me anything.
You can show up. Bring your questions from podcast episodes, from your relationships, bring questions about non-monogamy, about individuation, about relationship skills. We would love to share space with you. We're hosting these AMAs free of charge for our podcast listeners. You are the playing with fire community. It matters a ton to us that we connect with you directly. Oh, I would so love to hear your questions. Oh, it would be so awesome.
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