E228: Breaking Down A Real-Life Text Fight (pt 2.)

we have all had bad behavior and we have including us including us probably in the last week yeah not communicated well just not done a great job so i always like to say that because it's it's easy to read over another

couple's argument and be like oh my god why did you put it that way why didn't you say it like this you obviously shouldn't have done that but when you're in the moment when emotions are high like it's very easy for us to make mistakes we're all human so i just want to give this couple some grace that they're human too. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin.

I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience. And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours. Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more.

it's the sex education you wish you'd had today we're bringing back one of my favorite segments yes thank you i've already forgot the word i got you girl i know that look on your face when you're like oh my god i've made a horrible mistake words into the episode and i was like favorite what's it called segment Okay. Recurring feature.

So ages ago, we did an episode that was all about breaking down a text fight. We turned to our Instagram community. We said, okay, if you and your partner have gotten into a fight over text, a long one, not just a like, hey, you jerk.

You forgot to take out the trash. If you've got into a long fight over text, send us the receipts. We want to see the screenshots and we will walk you through exactly how you and your partner could have had this fight better. Like where you went wrong, where your partner.

went wrong specific suggestions like I just think it's so fun and it was in that original episode like it was so fun to play with a specific example and to be able to see it written out in front of us like it's I'll say like as a therapist.

it's it's always a different experience when a couple would come in to the office because they're trying to recap what happened but of course like our memories aren't perfect and there's always arguments about like well i said a no you didn't you said b no i didn't i at a you know so it's like you're never getting the accurate picture of what

actually happened unless they get in a fight like in the office in the office that that's what i loved about this text fight that we have the receipts word for word exactly what you each said and we can like break it down so we did this episode for the first time ages ago and we i think we said in the episode that was so fun we're totally going to do this again and then we forgot did we not i thought we've done a couple of these no this is only our second one wow yeah that's uh i'm

glad that we're doing it because i think that this is one of those things where it's like it's so i shouldn't say it's so easy it's so much easier to talk about communication in theory in like, okay, here's what you should do in general. Here's what you shouldn't do in general. And it's so easy to be like, okay, yeah, my partner and I were talking about this. We're on the same page about how we want to communicate about what to do. This is how we're going to handle X. when ABC happens.

and then when it actually happens in practice it's so easy for it to just all go out the window yeah you have these really good intentions and then hits the fan and we revert back to our conditioning to what we're used to we're comfortable with to you know the we got triggered and all these things come up so it's it's so much more helpful i think for people to have a real example in front of them and here we really get to marry

the theory with the reality. Yeah, and I just also love it because it gives such a great... opportunity for us to share communication tips like it's one thing for us just to say like you should use i language that helps your partner not be defensive but when you have like a real example in front of you of like

this person didn't did not say this in a great way here's why here's why and here's what they could have said to be better it's just it's so much easier to like see these communication tips like in the wild i think you learn better as a listener too so today we've got a brand new fight for you we got a brand new fight guys and definitely let us know if you like this format because when we put out another call for more fights over text I think we got like

10 really great examples that we could work off of. Yeah, people are fighting, babe. People are fighting. Okay, so here's what we're going to do. I'm first going to read you a little bit of backstory about this couple. The wife was the one who sent this in, and it's a husband and wife. So I think maybe I will read the wife, you read the husband, and we will pause along the way. to note what went right, what went wrong, what you could have said a little bit differently. And in typical fashion...

Vanessa's read all of this. No, I haven't. I read a few messages enough to see. I scrolled through and I'm like, okay, there's plenty of screenshots. So there's lots for us to work off of. Okay. We're on more even playing field. I was going to say per usual, Vanessa. has read all of this she requested that i not look at it so that she can get my my legitimate reactions in the moment but this is great we're both going to be both going to be giving our real honest reactions in the moment

Okay, so this is a married couple. They have four young kids. She says her mental load is enormous. Very important topic. We have a couple of other episodes about that. If you have not heard us talk about mental load before, she also struggles with her self-confidence right now. So what happens, what has happened in the past is that he.

initiates sex a lot more often his sex drive is a lot higher than hers and when she says no to sex she says it will cause problems like she feels like he gets mad at her for saying no he gives her the cold shoulder

So right before this fight, there was another incident of this. He initiated sex. She said no. He got upset. Okay. Great background. The table is set. Okay. Let's get into it. All right. Okay. So here's what she... says and we're we're going like left left to right with all these screenshots here right like okay just just making sure can't you go out want to deliver this as realistically as possible and sorry who's blue and who's black blue is the wife so i read blue you're black

Got you. Okay. You find... This is a good start. this is a great start okay so i'm like my my new media reaction is there doesn't need to be a fight that comes out of this. However, I will say, I don't know the backstory. This might be, you know, the partner might be thinking, like, the partner might have received a very similar message to this.

multiple multiple times they might be resentful about a whole variety of other things just this on the surface is like okay yeah that's like a really well thought it sounds like someone who has been listening to our podcast for a while or following us for a while because this is really well written very clear and very neutral okay so there are a couple of great things she does and actually before i get into it let us also say, when it comes to fighting,

We have all had bad behavior. Including us. Including us. Probably in the last week. Yeah, not communicated well, just not done a great job. So I always like to say that because it's easy to read over another conversation.

couple's argument and be like oh my god why did you put it that way why didn't you say it like this you obviously shouldn't have done that but when you're in the moment when emotions are high like it's very easy for us to make mistakes we're all human so i just want to give this couple some grace that

They're human too. Okay. So, but let's, let's talk about what I like about this. She's bringing up a deeper fear, which is she's showing her vulnerability. I'm afraid that you'll leave me. Right. She's also making it clear. I'm not wanting you to feel undesired. that is not the issue. And that really is the case in like 98% of the couples that we talk to.

Sex drive differences are not about one partner being less attracted to the other partner. It's all the other stuff going on in life that's getting in the way of intimacy. It's not an attraction issue. So I like that she points out, like, I don't want you to feel undesired.

desired she reminds him like the meds are one of the things that are causing her low desire she points out that she needs to feel connected in order to feel open to sex and it's been hard for them to find the time for like spending

quality time together and having cuddles. She says, I love you. She apologizes. And I hope we can start over tomorrow. Like this is all great. Okay. So what do we hear from the husband? I'm not going to leave you. If I'm having a hard time and not feeling good about myself.

being told that you aren't interested a bunch just makes it worse and me feel worse and why bother trying or asking or telling you i want you just because you will say no again because you aren't interested in me even upset i still wanted to spend time with you that's why i said we had time to play our game a bit okay what do you think Okay, well, I was thinking about this even in the last message where she's talking about, I don't want to make you feel undesired.

Clearly, this is a big sticking point with them. She has a lower sex drive. He has, you know, she's scared that he will leave her. I think he's scared that he's undesirable to her. He's maybe not naming that as a big fear, but clearly that's a big thing. She's trying to tell him, no, no, it's not about me.

desiring you so before we even get into like what he said i think like a huge huge huge important thing in their relationship just from like and i could tell this just from the first message before he even hopped in she has got to find ways to show him that she desires him beyond just sex or beyond just initiating sex because sex cannot be the only way that we validate our partner, the only way that we show them we want them because sex cannot always happen all the time. Yeah.

you know when things are good sure you can fall into a good rhythm but like Shit happens. Vanessa and I are in a, are in a season of life right now where stuff is happening completely out of our control, like family stuff, family health stuff. And it's a challenge. And like, I know. our our sex life is going to be less frequent most likely because we're both feeling like in tough situation there's tough emotions coming up with things that are happening in our life and so

That's why we cannot rely on sex as the one thing that gives us that feeling of, oh, my partner really wants me. So she has got to find other ways to show him. how desirable he is to her i think that so many of us are so scared to do that if we have the lower sex drive because we go oh my god if i do anything to validate my partner if i do anything to tell them how sexy i think they are or how attractive i think they are how much i want them they're gonna want sex

They're going to think I'm initiating. And so I think that we shut ourselves down from doing this for our partner. and that only exacerbates the situation because then it then it feels like oh my god the only possible way that i can feel wanted is if my partner says yes to sex yeah so it's like all you're doing is actually you are raising the bar every time you go oh i don't i don't want to give my partner a compliment

then they might want to have sex with me you're raising the bar you're making it harder and harder and harder for them to get what they need in your relationship and then on the flip side he has got to find ways to to emotionally connect with her that are not just sex and i know that that is a very common you know he he is a sex before connection type that does not mean that the only way he can feel connection is through sex that's just the default

my default my first choice when i want to feel connected is have a sex that doesn't mean that it's the only way so he's got to find other ways to create connection and i think like this is long term, this is going to be the thing that gets them out of this hole that they've dug for themselves.

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pillow at checkout that's code pillow at naturesunshine.com okay so the next morning that was at night the next morning she says oh and sorry i also like that he he reiterated like i still want to spend time with you and he also addressed the fear like i'm not going to leave you those are some good things that he did there yeah and and also

This is so tricky, but I mean, I think that he describes really well that kind of weird cycle that you can get into when you are the only one or almost always the only one initiating and the partner who is receiving.

the initiation see it seems like they almost always or they regularly say no this is such a common pattern that especially men deal with is the okay well you know i don't feel good when you say no i don't feel good about myself when you say no you say no fairly frequently so why bother continuing to ask because you're likely gonna say no and i'm only gonna feel worse about myself

And so it's easier to just not ask. And so he's, yeah, he's starting to kind of describe that to her. I mean, do you like the way that he described that? Or do you think there's a better way that he could have put that? I think there's a probably slightly better way that he could have put that.

um i i think like the saying like why bother trying or asking i don't like it feels it feels defeatist yeah it is very defeatist i think it's it's a different thing to speak to like hey, I just wanted some acknowledgement that it's really hard to be in my shoes, that I'm the one who does the majority of the initiating, and so therefore I'm the one who hears the, you know.

majority of the rejections and it's just hard to be turned down when i'm wanting to connect with the person that i love and i think this gets back to the comment that i made before if like she's got to find ways to make him feel desired that are not just saying yes to sex

Because I think what's underlying in all of this, he probably, he may not have realized yet for himself, but like he described kind of like the outcome of the situation that he's in, which is I feel less and less motivated to initiate sex because it feels like you're just going to say no. and I'm just going to feel bad about myself. But what's really underlying that is I'm not feeling very wanted by you. And that's really hard. Are there other ways that you can show me that you want me?

so i think that that is like you know that's like that's probably like the a plus way of communicating is if you can really think about okay not just like what is the dynamic or this you know the kind of like the spiral that i'm going through in my head but what's underlying that what would what would help

solve that and it's not just like because it doesn't make sense to be like okay well when you say no then i don't want to initiate so therefore the answer is that you just have to say yes all the time like that's impractical right so it's like you got to think about okay so what is what is practically

underlying all of this okay it's that it's that yeah i don't feel good about myself when it doesn't feel like you want me now you can't always say yes to sex so how can we find other ways to make me feel like wanted and desired by you because that's a really important part of a relationship okay so

Let's we got to move on. We only have one screenshot. We're going deep here, guys. We've solved the problem in two texts. No, I'm just kidding. Let's keep going. OK, the next morning, she says, is our marriage really not OK? Because I've said no. I don't love that. I keep looking back through this. I'm like, did we miss a message or something here? Because it feels like she kind of turned the heat up a bit.

unnecessarily yeah she's right this is a ratcheting up but i think this we see this so often in these in these types of scenarios where it seems like it seems like things are kind of okay and then one person out of nowhere it's like it's like oh i feel uncomfortable with where we left things so let's turn up the heat yeah

they're guilty of that too okay so she says is our marriage really not okay because i've said no i can't help that my drive is so low my medication really affects it it's not that i'm not attracted to you i am i love you and i love sex with you and our life together

Okay, got better. But still, it's like, where are we going with this? Yeah, but it's also kind of like, as you know, the way the same way that we said, it's a bit defeatist where he's like, well, why even bother initiating sex with you?

it also i'm not trying to diminish whatever meds that you were on but saying i can't help the fact because of my meds that that is defeated in its own way like yes things can impact your sex drive but you can't just say you can't just throw your hands up and be like oh Like I will never have a sex drive because of this medication that I'm on. Like, you know, it's just one thing impacting it. So he continues.

I'm not still upset that you said no. I'm upset that it seems like you don't think I'm allowed to be upset about it and that my feelings and needs are less important than yours. Sounds like he's been listening to our podcast too. You say no a lot more than you say yes, and I rarely get upset about it, so if sometimes I need the connection and validation more than others and still get a few no's in a row, then I'm going to be upset.

I'm not okay with being made to feel like that isn't allowed and my feelings aren't important. Okay, so here we really get to the heart of having mismatched sex drives in a relationship, which by the way... Every couple has mismatched sex drives in a relationship. But there is always going to be one partner initiating more often and therefore getting turned down more often. And... It needs to be okay for that person to be disappointed.

Because it's sex, we have this tendency to think of it as just this physical act. Oh, he's just horny. She's just wanting to get off. We really write it off. But imagine this scenario and what instead he was asking for is a date night. Mm-hmm. Hey, can we have a date night? No, I'm sorry, I'm not in the mood. Okay, he comes back the next week. Hey, I'd really love to have a date night with you. Can we do it? No, I'm not in the mood. Oh, we don't have the time. Okay, like...

We would be more empathetic to that, right? Like, oh my God, this poor guy is just trying to have a date night with his wife and she keeps saying no. Like we need to see sex in the same way, that it is a bid for connection. It's a way to be intimate and close with each other. Like what we're really looking for through sex is this feeling of connection. So it needs to be okay for the partner being turned down to be disappointed about it.

Now, the key is how do we handle that disappointment? So the disappointment has to be hand in hand with respect for the decision, respect for the no. So there cannot be any guilt tripping, any manipulating, any pressuring, any trying to get you to change your mind. If it doesn't have respect for the no, then we're veering into that's unhealthy, unacceptable territory. I also want to point out...

that Vanessa said disappointment. She didn't say upset. Now he is saying here, it needs to be okay that i'm upset i think that upset is if we're kind of like ranking emotions in terms of uh like how how serious or extreme they are i would say that upset because i'm upset is usually more of an active thing i am upset with you

versus i'm disappointed is a little more passive i'm feeling disappointed that that happened i'm disappointed that you said no you're not saying i'm disappointed in you i'm not saying i'm angry at you i'm mad at you i think upset is

is approaching anger territory. Like... because i worry that well different couples can use the word differently but i worry that she might perceive it that way he's written this down we don't you know he's typing this so there's no voice there's no like intonation so we can't tell like how much emotion is behind that word or you know what

If he's meaning, I'm like, just a little upset, like a little disappointed versus, hey, I'm upset. I'm upset that you're saying no. I think different couples use those words differently because I say you should be allowed to be disappointed. And for some people. they're like someone being disappointed in me is the worst feeling i could possibly feel so some people give pushback to disappointed so i don't want to like police the exact words but the vibe is like it's okay for you to be

down, bummed out, sad, like a feeling of like, hey, I had wanted to connect with you and we're not going to connect. And that's a bummer. Yeah. It's not okay to be like aggressive.

angry how dare you you're a jerk you know anything like that so it's more about yeah it's just more of a gentleness around the feeling okay yeah i just kind of wanted to flag that because that's a word where i'm not sure what direction are we going more in the i'm a little disappointed in a kind of passive way direction or i am i am getting upset and maybe mad and angry and or resentful at you those feel like two very different things i think the other thing i want to call out is that

He's basically saying, if sometimes I need more connection and validation, and I get a no in that case, then I'm going to be upset. That I think that really gets back to the comment. I'm going to keep hammering this home of like the underlying need for him is not feeling wanted.

and so what he's saying like i think what's a little tricky here is what he's saying is oh well when i'm in particular need of validation and you say no then i'm gonna get then i'm gonna have a feeling about it is is again he's talking about he's missing the next layer of the onion. Like what is missing is peeling that back a bit and being like,

I need to find more ways to get validation from you. Yeah. To feel wanted from you that are not just sex. To feel connected to you. Yeah, to feel connected to you that's not just sex because... Because what he's kind of saying here is like, ooh, if I'm feeling a little unsure or not 100% confident, everything is depending on this initiation.

And that's not a you don't want to be in a relationship where where the stakes are. You don't ever want the stakes to be so high where, you know, this feels like, you know, it's like. It's like fourth and goal in the fourth quarter in a football game, right? And it's like, we have to score. It's the only way to win. That's not what you want.

initiation to be like in your relationship but that's what is it feels like is happening here it's like he's like oh yeah if you don't say yes i'm gonna feel really bad about myself yeah so that's that's just not a good situation to be in yeah so i would tailor his response a little bit i would say

like hey i rather than i'm allowed to be upset there's a lot of like he's really asserting himself here i would go gentler with it and like he's saying like i'm not okay with being made to feel like that isn't allowed i would say I want there to be space in our relationship for me to feel sad.

bummed out, disappointed, whatever word feels good. To have feelings about it. For me to have feelings about it. And I want to feel like my needs and your needs are equally important. Like I want to feel like my needs are respected, even though they can't be met 100% of the time.

I think that would go over way better. Okay. She says, no, you're allowed to be upset and feel upset about it. It came out as anger rather than being upset. And that's where the issue is because it turns into me feeling like I'm obligated to do what you want to make you happy at the expense of my own autonomy. Great. Okay, we should have just read forward.

I had a feeling. I had a feeling. No, so they're okay with the word upset. Upset is fine with them. But she said it started to feel like anger. Yeah, but in this specific instance, she was feeling like he was angry at her. So she made that great distinction. You're allowed to be upset, but you're not allowed.

allowed to be angry and she really clearly laid out yeah it's making me feel like i have to do this yeah well i guess that's why i'm saying hey guys you guys might want to discuss what are like you might want to this might sound silly but you might want to discuss a bit more when i say the word upset what does that feel like for me when i say the word i'm angry what does that feel like for me when i say the word i'm disappointed or i'm bummed out what does that feel like for me and

It seems so basic, but like literally writing those definitions out and then, but that will allow you to calibrate. Okay. Because if you do that, I suspect he might be like, you know what? What's actually coming up for me in that moment? It's more like I'm bummed out or I'm feeling disappointed. And so it might be better for me to use those words instead, because what she's saying.

right there is okay yeah you can be upset but it was verging on angry so it's like if i'm ranking those words in their relationship i bet you bummed out is at the bottom upset is going to be in the middle and angry is on the more extreme end and so i'm saying upset is a little too close to angry where it's like oh if there's a little bit

you know, a little more spice with it is verging in angry territory. So let's recalibrate and kind of shift our vocabulary a little bit so that it's more clear. Okay, I have to give a quick little disclaimer here. If all of a sudden you were like, what was that weird sound in the background when Sander was talking? And now there it is again. We are currently...

Under construction in our home, there is some massive concrete jackhammering going on outside. We were very careful today. We planned to record the episode right when they take their lunch break. They've been taking a one hour, 12 o'clock lunch break. every other day but today they decided to take a 35 minute lunch break so we are just gonna have to soldier on because life is life and right now and so sorry if you hear a little

Fun little extra noise in the background there. I actually have no idea of how much it's going to get picked up. Let's just hope it's light. Yeah, maybe some of it can be filtered out. We'll see. We'll see. Okay, well, why don't you continue on with what he said? All right, so yeah, he continues. Well, I wasn't angry, just upset and hurt. Okay, she says, it makes sense that you'd be upset because that's how you like to feel close to me. I understand that it doesn't feel good to hear no.

Great. I love that. It makes sense is one of the best things that you can tell your partner when you guys are in a conflict, like about their feelings. Your feelings make sense. Even if they don't make sense to you, just say it makes sense. It's so validating. Like it's really good to hear as a partner.

um so i like well don't don't don't lie about it but it may not here's the thing it may not make sense to you but think about how that could make sense to them you're you're saying you know what i can see you're you're looking at it that way i you know i the way that you're thinking about i can see how that makes sense for you you do not have to ever say that makes sense to me as long as you can understand that that might make sense for somebody else that is the real key in so many couples

Thousands and thousands and thousands, probably the majority of couples get so hung up on that point in conflict that it's really not possible to improve beyond that. And it's like, and when you can't do that, there's no.

way that both people are going to ever come out of a conflict feeling validated so if you can just hear that and take that one thing away from this podcast that is huge so i like that she validates him that makes sense that's how you like to feel close to me it shows that she understands understands him and like yeah i understand that it doesn't feel good to hear no totally validating i love this but again they are focused they are focused on treating symptoms rather than getting to the cause

of these symptoms they are focused on i get that is the way you like to feel close to me so of course you feel upset that is a symptom of we don't have any other ways to feel close. We haven't developed other ways for you to feel close to me. So again, I'm just, I was going to keep getting back to this. I think I see, I see what is underlying all of this. And I think that they could.

In the future, they can avoid conflicts like this by getting a layer deeper rather than being like, hey, I'm upset that you said no because I don't feel wanted. And then you have an argument about that rather than being like, hey, I don't feel very wanted right now. Can we think about finding some ways that you could help me feel more wanted? I don't know if I necessarily agree with you on that. Like, I think that...

I think they needed to address this specific incident that happened. I would have a separate conversation at an unrelated time, not right after a triggering event that talks about what you're saying, like the bigger, deeper issue. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

wouldn't do that here yeah absolutely i'm not saying you shouldn't have done this what i'm saying is now that we have hindsight on this now that you've had this argument and you can look back we can review the tape and you can review the tape this is what i'm seeing so i'm not telling you you should have not had this now that you've had this we have the benefit of of hindsight

to be able to see okay this is what's really going on so this is what you guys could work on in the meantime to try to decrease the frequency with which you have these type of conflicts okay so then she sends a second message if i was her I would have just sent that first message and just let him respond because she introduces something different with the second message. She says, I worry that if I say yes when I don't really want to, then it turns into something else.

Yeah, that doesn't seem necessary because it doesn't sound like he hasn't yet expressed anything about, I wish he would have just said yes. Yeah. Yeah, and she's introducing something new that I don't think needs to be here. It's valid, but doesn't need to be here right now. I don't want you to say yes when you don't want to.

But if you make me feel bad when I get upset once in a while, when I've gotten no a bunch of times in a row, then you are telling me that you are more important than me. And I'm not interested in being part of that.

See, if she had just left it to the first message, she validated him so well. And now, but then because she dropped in that second message, now he's back to like, ah, I'm trying to get validation. He like missed the fact that she really was trying to validate him. Yeah. And I worry that he kind of took her message of, I worry that if I say yes. blah blah blah that he's thinking she's kind of subtly implying that that he's trying to manipulate her or that he's like trying to

Yeah, that that that he's trying to pressure her. Yeah. And it doesn't we don't know the history. Maybe there is a history of that. Maybe there isn't. From what I've seen so far, he hasn't said anything that's indicated like. like I wish that you would just say yes more or you know throw me a bone once in a while there hasn't been anything that's touched on that so I it seems like he's getting a little triggered because he's feeling like she's kind of trying to like

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Okay, she says, I'm not trying to make you feel bad for being upset. You're allowed to be upset and I'm allowed to say no and we need to be able to manage those feelings in an appropriate way. Okay. I don't hate it. I like that she reiterates again, you're allowed to be upset.

Then she continues. Nobody's feelings are more important than the others. Just because I'm saying no doesn't mean I don't love you and don't care about you. It makes it seem like your happiness in our marriage is tied to how often we have sex and there's pressure with that. Okay, but again, it's like...

Just, just stop. Like, I think this is the thing in when we have fights and you and I are so guilty of this too. It's like, we try to do too many things at the same time. When you're having a fight with your partner, slow the fuck down. Cover like half.

the content that you want to like one thing at a time or half a thing at a time yeah she said so many other good things but then it's like it's gonna get buried because now she's saying like oh well you know our marriage is all about how often you have sex yeah and Also, I mean, yeah, bringing up happiness is a real big, big wide thing. Maybe she could have said it feels like your ability to feel wanted or validated.

is tied to how often we have sex or really if she was being more accurate it would be fair to say it would be kind of coming out of nowhere but it would be fair she's pointing out what i've been pointing out this whole time it feels like your ability to feel wanted or to feel good about yourself is directly tied to how often I say yes to having sex with you.

But instead she goes, oh, you know, what he's probably hearing is she's saying, well, it just seems like you can't be happy unless we're having a ton of sex, which then it feels like that just feels like an impossible argument. It's like an unquantifiable thing that now he has to argue against too. And so, yeah, I would start to be, I would be getting real frustrated.

in this situation and i would probably but i wouldn't i probably wouldn't know why because it's hard to put your finger on that but it'd be like wait now i feel like i'm like fighting multiple battles like first i'm like now it's like i have to defend myself against pressuring you to have sex So I think also there's also a big gender dynamic here where it's like I'm really sensitive to that when as soon as you Especially as soon as I as a man as soon as I hear something that starts to feel like

Kind of one of those tricky gender things. Oh, you're a guy and you might be pressuring me to have sex with you. I'm going to get defensive because that feels like that's, hey, that's an important, that's really important to me. I do not want to be that guy. that's doing that and if you're kind of trying to subtly imply that maybe i am being that guy i don't want to be like defensive like hey you know like like hey that's but it's more of like hey

You've leveled this accusation. We let's make sure we cover it. I got to hear this out because this is really important. I do not want it to look or feel like I'm trying to gloss this over or I'm trying to like.

you know just kind of leave that you know that accusation that you lobbed at me there i want to make sure that we're because that's not like i'm not okay i'm i don't feel like i'm in integrity with myself as a man If that's kind of out there in the open as something that might be happening, and I'm not 100% sure.

what my partner's feeling about that so I think that that can be that is one of those tricky things and and similar with this like oh it seems like you can't be happy unless we're having x amount of sex that's another one where it kind of feels a little icky as a guy to hear because i'm like this is this feels like such a stereotypical male thing this sort of like accusation that's being leveled at me and i'm like

i yeah i want to i would want to really dig into that now i'm like okay so now i'm like finding a battle on multiple fronts where it's like okay we got to get to the bottom of this pressure you have sexing now we got to get to the bottom of this happiness thing like

and then there's also the issue of what we're fighting about to start with yeah she yeah so she's really just like opened up another can of worms in an already like starting to get complicated situation there's too many worms there's too many worms she also says

And what do you mean that you're not interested in the situation or that you're not interested in our relationship and marriage? Because previously, yeah, he said, I'm not interested in being a part of that. Yeah, I wanted to flag that.

to we moved on too quickly but yeah i don't know what that means um but that's uh that's another one like just like i was saying where like you know i don't love the fact that she kind of like made this one implication about the pressuring and then this implication about the like you can't be happy unless we're having enough sex that's that's a you know another one on the flip side where it's like he kind of left a little like

a bomb or a mine you know a landmine right there of like what does that mean because yeah it sounds a bit like he's like oh i'm not interested in being a part of yeah a part of our relation a part of what that's unclear

And that's going to probably blow up in your face later on. And here it is. And I also just want to call, we're getting to the point in text message land where it's like, how do you have a text conversation about three different... arguments yeah at the same time not to say it's easier in person and maybe it's a little easier in person because you can be like hey let's cover this okay now let's cover that but it's like in text oh god you this is

This is a challenge. Also, just don't talk about the potential end of your marriage over text. Yeah. That's a general good rule. Yeah, good idea. Good idea. Okay, so let's see what he thinks. I didn't say you weren't allowed to say no. I was upset but asked you what you wanted to do instead and then you got mad at me that I was upset. I got more upset and angry when it felt like you were making my feelings seem unreasonable.

Okay, so I like that he clarifies like this. I'm not trying to say that you're not allowed to say no. that's good yeah all right so then okay yeah i just said you know the problem with text is it's hard to have like three conversations at once at this point he starts using the respond to a message feature so in response to her message about like

you know nobody's feelings are more important than the other then he says well i won't be happy in our marriage if we don't have sex we already had that happen and seen how it went Okay, this is tricky because that is fair to a certain extent, but that is a very general... You got to say it differently. Statement that is not going to be helpful in that case. Don't say it like this. I would say...

Sex is one of the times that I feel the most connected to you, the most intimate and vulnerable with you. It's very important to me. And for me, that is a really healthy part of a relationship. Even that is a very key part. I don't think he even needs to say.

this because she's not saying i never want to have sex with you like i think he's just feeling defensive he's not feeling validated even though she's trying so hard to validate him he's feeling invalidated so he's he's like digging in even deeper

And it just feels like a jab to say, like, we already had that happen and saw how that went. Yeah, it's kind of like raising boundaries in situations where it's not actually... called for like it's like well don't worry like oh well just to make sure everyone's clear like i can't be in a relationship with you if we don't have sex oh just so it's clear i can't be it's like we're not talking about we're not talking about

ending the relationship yeah right now you know as of 24 hours ago i don't think either of you were thinking about ending the relationship so yeah having throwing those types of like oh well this is a deal breaker For me, when it's like we're not actually at that point yet, it's not helpful. It's like more kind of like landmines that you're just sort of throwing out there that someone might or might not bump into later on in the course of the argument.

so he drops that one there then he responds to the you know and what do you mean about the like you're not interested in that type of situation he says i'm not interested in a relationship where important feelings to me are marginalized and i'm made to feel second class with my feelings

This guy's really struggling to feel validated. I think there's a deeper history there. Well, it's getting back to what is missing. He's not feeling wanted, validated, needed by her. I think validation is a much bigger, much bigger, deeper... older issue than just the sex and not feeling attractive like there is there's nothing nothing in this conversation that makes me think she thinks he's a second-class citizen his feelings are not important like

so there's something deeper here there's a there's marva history and i think another thing i'll say here i i can't say i can't know if this is happening in their relationship or not but i know this has come up for me i know this comes up for many many men So I think that there can also be a dynamic in male female relationships where men typically were socialized to be less comfortable with feelings and expressing feelings and sharing them.

so as a result we don't engage with that type of stuff very often and so of course when we do it feels like a really big deal for us but at the flip side of that is because we don't have a lot of practice with it we often come in really hot or we come in in an unskilled way sharing our feelings and so i think that what can very often happen is i'm thinking

okay i don't usually do this but i'm going to get really vulnerable with how i'm feeling and that's going to be a good thing right like my partner wants me to be more emotional wants no more wants me to be more vulnerable i'm finally gonna do it and you're not realizing that you're doing it in a really unskilled way or in a potentially hurtful or harmful way

And your partner calls you out on that or your partner gets upset or has what feels to you like a disproportionate response. And so it can feel to me like, like, oh, well, God, I barely ever like.

share my feelings like this but whenever i do it goes horribly wrong or like you don't validate me and so it feels like they're not important to you but we're not recognizing that hey the issue you know the main issue is that i don't do this enough so i feel really i'm not i don't feel prepared for how to share this in an effective way that my partner is going to hear

in the right way and so it's kind of this catch-22 for for men of like how do we express our emotions when we don't have a lot of practice doing it so then she continues Okay, well, I'll just go off my meds then. Okay, don't make suggestions that you're not actually going to do. This is something that you do.

actually, that like, I used to do this a lot. There's an anxiety that comes up. You just want to like resolve the issue. And so you'll make a suggestion where I'm like, I'm obviously not going to do that. Like, I'm not going to let you do that. That's not a good idea. It's infuriating when it happens. happens it's like and like come on like you're not going off your meds because of your sex life so i don't i oh that makes me upset

So she says, and maybe we should try couples counseling because this has been a recurring fight. Great. Yes, you definitely should try couples counseling. Yeah. Okay. The thing goes, no, you don't need to go off your meds. Well, it'll help bring my libido back and resolve the problem. So why not? I hate to say this because I have been guilty of doing this a lot, but really making a comment like that.

is actually is i hate to say it it's just manipulative because what you're doing you're you're polarizing you're saying something really extreme So that you are forcing your partner to jump in and say, oh no, you don't need to do that. So, so that now, now the partner, so that like.

what's going on behind the scenes now is you're like oh well my partner now is totally on board with the meds so now because now you can be like the next time this happens you can be like you're like well i i told you it's all the meds and you told me that i should be on the meds And that's just a manipulative way to argue. All right.

So then he responds, because you said they help you feel better. Yeah. And if it ends with you leaving me because I'm saying no, then will I feel better then? Like, they're getting so derailed. This is going so off track. She said at the beginning, she has a fear. Of him, of him leaving. So it's like he has a deeper issue with validation. She has a deeper issue with fear of abandonment. Sounds like some couple therapy to talk about those issues.

not the sex the sex you can talk about after you guys talk about these deeper issues because honestly if you start to solve these deeper issues the sex thing will probably start to solve itself All right. So then he says, it has been fine and great for a long time now. I was upset last night, but I wasn't angry at you for saying no. I would have gotten over it in a day or two, except that you made me feel like I'm not allowed to be upset about it.

Before you had the meds was when we had less sex because we were less happy.

I told you a lot last night that you're allowed to be upset about it and I've said it a lot today. True. You're allowed to be upset about it. I love that she keeps reiterating it. It's okay to be disappointed being told no. It's vulnerable to initiate and I get that. It really felt... like I was being punished it's just the same we're now we're getting into like you know going around the cycling around saying all the same things like she's starting with the validation just leave it there

It really felt like I was being punished and you were taking it out on me because I said no because of how you talked to me after. Yes, you asked me what I wanted to do and you said it in a way that was hurtful. You said it, but you didn't act like it. You just acted like I was unreasonable. See, this is the reason why Vanessa is saying, it's great that you validated him, but then don't go into, it really felt like I was being punished because now instead...

He's not hearing the validation. He's instead jumping into, well, you validate, but then you accuse me of something and now I need to defend myself. So yeah, this is why that's not effective because she keeps saying the validating things, but then she keeps... saying other things. And so the validation never actually gets through to him.

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So then he continues. I didn't mean it in a hurtful way. I just wanted to know what you wanted to do. It came out frustrated because I was frustrated. If I was actually allowed to be frustrated, then you wouldn't get upset at me for it. oh i don't love if i was actually allowed to be i mean then you're you're putting her in this kind of weird position of like that that sounds like something you would say to like your mom oh if i was allowed to whatever

Well, we're all allowed to have our feeling. Like if he's upset, she's allowed to feel upset that he's upset. But again, it's like we just have to like validate the core experience. You're allowed to be frustrated. I was upset because it was like I was being punished for saying no. It's not unreasonable for you to be disappointed, but I don't think it's fair to treat me differently. We're going in circles. We keep coming back to the same thing and I don't know how we resolve this.

Well, I don't know what to tell you. I'm upset. I'm going to treat you differently because I'm upset. I'll get over it. But if that's how you are going to react anytime I'm upset, then it's just going to make me hide it. And that's what I did before and it didn't work. So we might as well stop now. When I hit it, you are upset that I hit it, so I don't know what to do.

We have been happy and good with the kids and having an okay amount of sex. And I've been trying to do less business stuff or cleaning or whatever and spend more time with you instead. So we have more time together with just us. Work has been crappy. Kids have been stressful for me lately. And I've been feeling.

attractive and shitty about myself and maybe you just aren't attracted to me they both can't help themselves from from continuing on but but i do think he might have said something in a way that she might understand it though about the attractiveness Oh, yeah. There's something for them to actually bond over here. They're both feeling unattractive and a lack of self-confidence. So there's something to connect with over here.

okay going back to him saying like i'm gonna treat you differently because i'm upset What does that mean? I'm unclear on what that means. They need to have a separate conversation of how do we handle disappointment in the moment? I think it sounds like...

they probably should give each other a little bit of space. Then he needs to go off on his own and like self-soothe, calm himself down. Then they can come back together and try to do something bonding and connecting. But I don't think it's okay to say,

i'm gonna treat you like is that like i'm gonna like oh well if i'm upset then i'm gonna be a dick to you like is that what you're trying to because i i think that yeah it's like if he had a moment to think about that like i i would if i were talking to him i would push him on this i'd be like so

What is it that you are trying to say here? Okay. Well, when I'm feeling, are you saying that when you say no to having sex with me, then I'm allowed to what? Like I'm allowed to call you names. I'm allowed to like.

be a dick i'm allowed to like get sarcastic or whatever like i think it's if you actually have someone spell out what it is they're trying to say very often you would realize oh yeah that's not really what i'm trying to say i don't feel i don't want to i don't feel right saying to my partner that oh yeah if you do x y and z then i'm allowed to do

all these things are act in a certain way. You, you, you quickly realize, oh yeah, no, I don't really want to be, I don't really want to be giving myself permission to do that in any situation. okay she says i understand not feeling attractive because i'm in that boat great i just really don't know what to do we keep saying the same things and i don't know how to go forward I don't know. I'm going to get upset sometimes just like you would if you asked to cuddle and I said no most of the time.

If I found some relevant podcasts, would you listen? Oh, I know it's coming. Oh, I see our podcast. Sure. I just don't want you to think I need you to say yes if you don't want to. i'd like you to say yes more because i love our sex but i wanted you to be into it just sometimes that means you are going to be saying no when i might need it more than just want it Okay, I like that she redirected the podcast. I like that he said yes. I'm not okay with this, like...

differentiating between needing sex and wanting it. Sex is never an actual need. Like it's not like, yeah, nobody's dying from not having sex. Like it's very, very important. It's a part of a relationship, but.

i'm a little confused by that statement and i don't love him saying like yeah they're i'm going to be more upset in the times when i need it yeah if i was talking to him i would want to really drill down on that and be like think back to the last time you felt like you really really needed it what what was under what was under that like what what else was coming up for you was it that oh i had a really shitty day and i had a lot of negative self-talk and i was feeling

Like I was really unattractive and I wasn't sure if my partner wanted me. That is very different from like, oh i had this unsatiable physical need like i where i just was thinking about sex 100 of the time all day like i doubt that that was a situation that really he's just feeling really down about himself he's feeling really undesirable or unwanted and so he pivoted into ah i know it will fix that sex but in reality it's like

you know, Hey, is there a way for me to come home to my partner and be like, man, I had a really shit day. I had a lot of, you know, I was, I looked in the mirror and I wasn't happy with what I saw. And I was feeling really down about myself, like sharing that type of vulnerability.

with your partner that your partner is gonna like be like oh my god like i i think you know if they hear that and be like oh man that sounds so tough like hey i think you're super attractive or like hey like let me cuddle you let me you know like let me help you try to help you feel better about that. That is actually going to be the emotional connection that your partner wants.

that's going to make her feel much closer to you and actually feel more open to having sex with you rather than you being like i'm feeling really down about myself the only way for me to feel better is for my partner to say yes to sex which she's unlikely to do Yeah, that's that's really tough.

Yeah. Okay. So we're going to wrap this conversation up here. Lots and lots of lessons learned along this conversation. But I think that like one other thing that's coming to mind is I think that she needs to do some initiating too. Yeah.

It's a big misconception that only the one who's turned on needs to initiate. Like we need, everybody needs to initiate. We have plenty of other podcast episodes about that if you want to learn more about initiation. But I think that would really help too if he's.

not the only one being put in that yeah i think she kind of mentioned because of the meds that for her it felt helpful for him to be doing the initiation because her sex drive is lower but i think that actually yeah you want to flip that around and not say that she needs to be doing all the initiation but i think that you know we talk about this a lot of finding ways to finding ways to realize that

Initiating sex doesn't have to be, I'm initiating sex because I'm wildly horny. It's that, hey, I want to initiate some closeness. with you i want to initiate an opportunity for me to get more in the mood what do i need to get more in the mood is it some emotional connection is it some combination of emotional connection and maybe some physical touch something that's maybe going to start giving me something to respond positively

too. So yeah, I think that that would be so, so huge because also that's going to help him feel wanted and needed too. All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening and join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.