[00:00:00] Today we are talking with Leonore Chia.
[00:00:03] She describes herself as a field guide to the inner world, helping people transform their sexual and emotional patterns to have better relationships and more personal power.
[00:00:14] Full [00:00:15] disclosure, Leonore is my therapist and has been over the last seven years in which she has guided me to become a better version of me.
[00:00:24] Our conversation revolves around those that might relate to being highly [00:00:30] sensitive, empathetic, or having type C coping patterns like conflict avoidance, emotional suppression, and people pleasing. Leonor describes how these patterns show up and can be a liability in [00:00:45] relationship, and she also offers us many ways forward.
[00:00:48] This is a tender conversation between a therapist and a patient, and I believe it depicts what a type C transformation journey can look like. Leonor wanted me to say that [00:01:00] since we've known each other for a long time, well, before she became my therapist, this conversation, she shares more openly than she usually does within a therapeutic frame.
[00:01:10] May this podcast be a catalyst for you to [00:01:15] become the better version of you just bursting to step forward.
[00:01:20] [00:01:30] [00:01:45]
[00:01:57] Kathy Washburn: Welcome, Leonore Tjia.[00:02:00] How are you?
[00:02:01] Leonore Tjia: I'm great. Thanks for having me.
[00:02:03] Kathy Washburn: It's so nice to be here with you. Leonore is my therapist. This is like the big what do you call that? The big reveal. [00:02:15] This, this is how, this human being is how I have been able to transform my type C behavioral traits.
[00:02:23] And Leonore has done such a beautiful job in helping me [00:02:30] Embrace them and not look at them as these negatives, but actually embrace them and kind of turn them and let their light out. So, helping me paw through the darkness, we have come through the light together [00:02:45] around my type C personality traits.
[00:02:48] Leonore, would you like to describe yourself in any other way that I've, then? The one I've just introduced you.
[00:02:56] Leonore Tjia: Sure. Yes. Well I, [00:03:00] I'm looking forward to doing a voyeuristic podcast interview with you and maybe I'll just say. We've known each other for quite a number of years now, I think seven, eight, eight years, and you've seen, you've actually seen me in many [00:03:15] different iterations of my, my own career and professional development, because when we met, I was working as a sex educator, doing a lot of experiential sexuality work mostly with women.
[00:03:25] And so we. Kind of met in that realm and then you've been in, [00:03:30] we've been in each other's lives as I then did the internal family systems therapy training and developed a practice working with people around IFS and parts work and over the years have evolved, a perspective around high sensitivity and [00:03:45] empathy and trauma and gender and feminism and sexuality that has coalesced in, you know, things you were working on and also reflects a lot of things, material of my own that I've been exploring.
[00:03:57] So it's been [00:04:00] it's been a very fertile collaboration over the years. Kathy, I'm so happy to be doing another
[00:04:05] Kathy Washburn: tour with you now. Yes, it certainly has. And I love the fact that you highlight those different elements, the sexuality, The internal [00:04:15] family systems and part work, parts work, and just your path through, through this whole process, both on an individual level and the path that you help others walk on.
[00:04:29] And you [00:04:30] always meet people where they are. You have met me in several different states of being. And the the presence that you hold in each of those. [00:04:45] Is I think what has allowed me to kind of rebirth as a, as a new version of myself. And I'm always so grateful for that. That presence and that I actually look for it and other people now.
[00:04:59] So [00:05:00] you've set a pretty high bar and so the 1 thing I just want to highlight that type C patterns. Just to reiterate, and people can refer to another podcast where I interview the [00:05:15] researcher, Lydia Temeshock, who came up with that language. But it's a pattern that reflects a fragile means of coping and it's often characterized by repression or a [00:05:30] decreased recognitions, recognition of one's own needs and feelings, particularly sadness.
[00:05:37] Thank Anger, which you and I have worked on extensively, with a reduced emotional expression [00:05:45] and a sense of dysregulation. And so this spoke to me so loudly, this highlighted who or how I walked in the world for many, many years of my life. And [00:06:00] this element of empathy or being an empathic. person who feels it all or a highly sensitive human.
[00:06:10] I think those two things of these, this way I came into being in this [00:06:15] sense, this oversense almost, is a good thing. It has lots of gifts and opportunities, and it has some reckoning and, and you've helped me reckon that. But I want to just [00:06:30] ask you, the people that walk in the world that kind of associate with this empathy, empathy, or I'm an empath or I'm highly empathetic.
[00:06:38] Is this something that we're born with, or, or is it something we acquire as we go through life.[00:06:45]
[00:06:45] Leonore Tjia: Yeah, I think it's important to kind of explore the language about this. Because I like that the definition of the type C personality really phrases it in terms of coping and defenses, coping mechanisms and defense mechanisms, repression, dissociation, [00:07:00] limiting emotional expression.
[00:07:02] I would say what I have seen and felt in my life is that there are certain types of people who seem to have just a higher than usual. Sense of empathy, ability to [00:07:15] notice and attune to other people, and notice what's going on, and a greater sensitivity to emotion, emotion contagion, if we want to use a more specific term.
[00:07:25] I think, and I think I don't think that I don't think that it's like[00:07:30] I think it's very multidimensional and it appears in different ways. So I think we can understand it in a few different ways. I was initially exposed to it through the lens of or through the language of the highly sensitive person, which was developed by a psychologist named Dr.
[00:07:43] Elaine Aaron, who did a lot [00:07:45] of research around. This is like a. Sort of personality I guess you could say a personality type originating from, like, a more sensitive nervous system.
[00:07:54] She, I've become aware, has become, there's some critique of the [00:08:00] highly sensitive or HSP lens around like, is this what about neurodivergent people? Because she kind of differentiates it from autistic people who are originally thought to have low empathy and [00:08:15] that's been challenged and is being challenged and explored differently now in much more, much less ableist ways.
[00:08:22] Thanks. So there's like the whole piece around neurodivergence and how neurodivergent brains experience can be, you [00:08:30] know, experience more sensitivity, more, um, a different kind of threshold than the neurotypical norm. I think you can also look at the socialization pieces around, in my experience, it's more women than men that [00:08:45] identify with these traits and show these behaviors, but also we live in a patriarchy where women are, assigned more care work and relational and emotional labor, and we are just, we are trained our whole lives to perform that, and it's part of, honestly, our cultural [00:09:00] complex of what it means to be a good woman.
[00:09:02] Mm. So, simil on the other side of that is men are, you know, trained to dissociate and shut off from their emotions, that it's seen that it's weak and unmasculine to do so. So [00:09:15] men who have this, men who have these gifts have their own uniquely gendered liabilities. And then I would also say, I think in my experience, marginalized people around really any axis of [00:09:30] marginalization.
[00:09:30] When we go through life being trained to center out someone else's experience that our experience isn't the norm and isn't the dominant narrative, you know, it's Paula Ferrer said that the oppressed usually know a great deal more about the oppressor than the oppressor knows about [00:09:45] themselves. There's also a certain social dimension to this sort of attunement to others and how that plays into safety within, you know, within power and privilege.
[00:09:55] So I think that some of it is innate, like there definitely is a mixture of [00:10:00] wiring and also our different experiences and the ways we are embodied and how that interacts with the world.
[00:10:06] Kathy Washburn: Yes, so it can come from so many places and there are some gifts, a lot of gifts to being an [00:10:15] empath people with high empathy or high sensitivity.
[00:10:19] Can you name some of those gifts? Yeah, for
[00:10:22] Leonore Tjia: sure. And before I go there. Can we dive into the term empath a little more even?
[00:10:27] Kathy Washburn: Yes, please. Yes. And maybe even help us [00:10:30] to differentiate if there needs to be between highly sensitive and empath. Yeah,
[00:10:35] Leonore Tjia: I think that their empath is a pretty imprecise term that I see being used in different ways.
[00:10:42] And the other thing that I didn't name [00:10:45] that I think should be named is trauma and just going through relational trauma. The ways that that trauma can increase our sensitivity and ability to track and notice others, usually from a place of assessing [00:11:00] safety. Mm. Yeah, and I, I, there's a, I think there's like some, some jokes and some memes that I've seen around like, are you an empath or do you just have complex PTSD
[00:11:10] Kathy Washburn: Right, right. Those two things would lead you down that same [00:11:15] path of being hype, hypersensitive to the world around you to keep yourself safe. Totally. Totally,
[00:11:23] Leonore Tjia: totally. And, and I think also, I just want to name, because it really is important for me to look at these things in a social context. [00:11:30] We know that long term experience, long term exposure to privilege compromises people's mirror neurons, which is to say people with more social privilege, the research shows actually are less empathetic and less generous than people who are [00:11:45] marginalized.
[00:11:45] And so I think there's a way where these dynamics may show up in some places in life and not in others. They may show up very strongly in personal relationships, where we might struggle to set boundaries and be able to be in touch with our own [00:12:00] feelings in relationship and really identify with being an empath and an empath in that realm.
[00:12:06] But then there may be other dimensions in which we have quite a lot of privilege and power in which we're actually quite insulated from these, from certain [00:12:15] other challenges. Does that make sense?
[00:12:16] Kathy Washburn: I think so. If, if I'm hearing you correctly, it's, there's some places where we put that protection over us and become another [00:12:30] word for this, not to, not to like throw more in the pot, but this others directed identity where it's so important, or it's, it's so, It's so ingrained for whatever [00:12:45] reason to read the room or, or assess another's emotions that it almost becomes I can only feel through the feelings of other people and this is what you've helped me through.
[00:12:59] [00:13:00] You know, when I first started working with you, somebody had that we were working together with asked me what I desired. And I remember the conversation and tears are just pouring down my face. We were on the [00:13:15] phone, and she let silence go by and, and came back and said, repeated the question, you know, what do you desire?
[00:13:23] Do you understand the question? And I was a little offended. And I said, of course I know what the word [00:13:30] desire means. I just. I don't, I don't desire and you've helped me see like I didn't have access to that because there was such a rote path of acquiring my own feelings through the feeling of [00:13:45] others as a way to safeguard myself, which I did in relationship, but then other places where I felt confident in my abilities.
[00:13:54] I, I did not need that and I could feel, but often those [00:14:00] feelings of a sense of pride, or ability would get knocked down in my own being, um, because of lack of confidence and we've worked on that, but I can see how I was a much, [00:14:15] I handled myself much differently in areas where I felt I had agency.
[00:14:21] Leonore Tjia: Totally. Yes. And, and I guess where I'm saying this to normalize that experience of feeling quite quite like a sense of agency and self [00:14:30] efficacy in some areas of life and some relationships and then some places where it's really not there.
[00:14:35] you. Because so much of my work is, has been in sexuality.
[00:14:39] That's often a place where people, You know, people sort of decompensate and [00:14:45] feel less skilled than they want to be and less skilled in other areas of their life. Yes,
[00:14:50] Kathy Washburn: and I think that's a beautiful segue to highlighting the gifts because the gifts of this, highly sensitive empath [00:15:00] personality can come out in a much different way when we do feel we have agency.
[00:15:05] Totally.
[00:15:06] Leonore Tjia: Yeah, totally. Yeah, I know. I think that I've heard from quite a few people that Susan Cain's book quiet, controversial, like a [00:15:15] watershed moment for them and just. Just being validated that it's okay to be an introvert,
[00:15:20] Kathy Washburn: you know, just
[00:15:22] Leonore Tjia: being validated that that's okay. I mean, we do live in a culture that is very invested in performance and excellence and [00:15:30] achievement and where the loudest voice wins and.
[00:15:32] I mean, really, we live in a very patriarchal, you know, capitalist racist society where certain expressions are just, or we see very limited expressions of what it means to be powerful. And so I think even the idea that, like, [00:15:45] you know, being emotional, but emotional intelligence is part of good leadership to be, like, really, like, studied and researched and, like, justified.
[00:15:56] Which is really quite depressing, I think it really speaks to where we [00:16:00] are as a society, how wounded we are as a society, that the gifts of being this way are so derided. So, I mean, it's, I think it's a huge part of, of, it's a huge part of care work of, you know, of building [00:16:15] relationships and intimacy in which other, in which people feel seen and noticed and cared for and where relational healing occurs.
[00:16:23] It's a huge part of, I think, being able to, you know, create meaning in relationships and meaningful [00:16:30] experiences, and being able to create deep, rewarding kinds of intimacy, and being able to pass that on to next, to between generations. It's a huge part of loving animals, and loving the earth, and loving [00:16:45] the more than human realm, and being open, being sensitive enough to, Really feel the aliveness of the earth and the magic of, of the earth and to be deeply inspired by art and music.
[00:16:57] That's part of the, I know Elaine Aaron talks about that [00:17:00] in high sensitivity and links, you know, empathy and that the German word. I'm feeling of like, feeling into something of how people like us tend to be. We're just, we're very easily moved by art and moved by music. And as much as it [00:17:15] can be so hard to be sensitive to all the, the.
[00:17:18] Yeah. The horror and cruelty in the world, also to just be easily moved by the beauty and the just the, the exquisite things of life,
[00:17:28] Kathy Washburn: you know.
[00:17:29] Yes. [00:17:30] What do you, what, what are the
[00:17:31] Leonore Tjia: gifts to you? I'm curious.
[00:17:32] Kathy Washburn: Well, it's funny because when I first started all this work, when I met you, I was also going through this positive psychology certification program. And one of the first things we learned, or we access is [00:17:45] this personal strengths. And we did this via character.
[00:17:49] Strength survey, which I use with almost all of my clients, because I realized that for so long this others directed way of being, or [00:18:00] this, this, sense of, of feeling like Being able to feel with other people, but not be able to feel for myself. It came with kind of a dissolving of who I [00:18:15] was in my own value.
[00:18:16] So this, I don't say silly, this personal strength survey that is done by the VIA Character Institute, VIA stands for values in action, so just. Discovering for [00:18:30] myself or validating. Oh, yeah, I have good and right inside me and and that does describe me and the way that it works is you answer all these questions and there's 24 character traits and they are.
[00:18:44] [00:18:45] After you finish it, they're ordered one through 24. We all have all 24. It just highlights, yours in the top to the bottom. And so my signature strengths, the top five strengths, uh, [00:19:00] three of them. I mean, I can tell you all of them, but three of one of the number one was kindness, which I have learned with you that that also means kindness to self, not just being kind to the world.
[00:19:13] Another is a [00:19:15] tender appreciation of beauty and excellence, which at first. I thought, yeah, I mean, I like, I like cool things. I enjoy nature. I'm like a 5 year old. If you go hiking with me, [00:19:30] I'll stop and take pictures of mushrooms or just be with the mushroom or lean on a tree, but it also. meant that I have the ability to appreciate the beauty and excellence in other people, [00:19:45] which I do naturally as a way of, I think, assessing like, am I safe in this?
[00:19:53] But I, I tend to lean towards the, am I safe in the, these are the good things in this person versus [00:20:00] am I safe in this person? Is bad in these ways. I hyper focus. I think yeah, the beauty in other people.
[00:20:09] Leonore Tjia: Yeah. Can I say something about that? Yes. I really like what you're pulling out there. So 1 thing I [00:20:15] hear is just a greater like relationship with all.
[00:20:18] Kathy Washburn: Which is,
[00:20:19] Leonore Tjia: I think can lead us to really spiritual places as well, just a deep, you know, spiritual and embodied sense of awe, like the interconnectedness [00:20:30] of things. And also this the ability to hone in on what's beautiful, which, can be so great. And also, I've come to see, like, for all of us who survived the emotional horrors of childhood, I think [00:20:45] that sometimes was a way we got through it by just, like, putting attention on what's beautiful.
[00:20:51] Like, you know, for me, it's like, you know, poetry is huge. Being a teenager, reading poetry, memorizing poetry, it was just like a huge lifeline, like a way of [00:21:00] weaving a lifeline through what's difficult, through putting attention on what's beautiful. And over time I've come to see like, oh, sometimes I really miss the other things, like it's harder to hold attention on like what makes me [00:21:15] uncomfortable.
[00:21:15] Or what feels unsafe, because if I really tune into it, like, for a long time, I actually felt a lot of resistance about beginning to look at my high sensitivity, because I was like, oh, I'm not going to be able to, like, do all the things I want to do, and like, I don't want to stop drinking coffee, and, [00:21:30] you know, it's like, I don't want to look at this stuff, because there's so much that makes me feel uncomfortable.
[00:21:35] It actually took a long time to establish enough safety in my life to start to look at places where I feel unsafe. And so that [00:21:45] I've seen also how that, the sort of relentless focus on what's beautiful can also be a way we keep ourselves in. Dysfunctional status quos.
[00:21:57] Kathy Washburn: Yes, that sounds very [00:22:00] familiar.
[00:22:00] Yes, yes, and what I think what you're, what you're making me think of is this self awareness, sometimes to pop the cork on that awareness of, oh wow, yeah, I'm doing [00:22:15] that thing, or this. I do this thing because it helps me feel safe. And you've helped me. I can't even begin to explain the levels of self awareness that I have.
[00:22:26] It's, I, we just go deeper and deeper [00:22:30] and deeper. And those layers that we peel off of, sometimes keeping a cap on it because what's under there is really fricking scary. And it's really not meant to delve through in the [00:22:45] vortex of my own brain. It's not healthy. And I tried for years to just write it out, you know, just write it out on a piece of paper, but actually to have somebody witness what I'm writing [00:23:00] or what I'm feeling.
[00:23:01] And holding space, and then opening doors to awareness of, oh, this is why I might hyper focus on the good in people [00:23:15] that it kept me safe. Totally,
[00:23:18] Leonore Tjia: totally. Yeah. And also in there, I hear you naming the self reliance which I think easily comes with this of like, when we're able to. Do things that make other people feel good [00:23:30] and feel comfortable.
[00:23:32] A lot of our value can be associated with what we give in relationships. But we can be really at a loss about how to get, like, how to meet our own needs and how to, you know,[00:23:45] how to be vulnerable and be met in relationships. So that can lead to or I think it goes hand in hand with another childhood pattern of just the self reliance, like.
[00:23:53] Things are out of control. So I'm just going to like manage what I can on my own. Yeah. I see how that leads to a lot [00:24:00] of, you know, people like us. Yes. Oh, here's the problem, but I'm going to fix it on my own, and I'm not going to like share it with anyone until I have the answer figured out. Right. Right.
[00:24:10] And often just like, you know, feeling kind of unmet, like just often, I think [00:24:15] also sometimes it's just an adaptation to being in the world where it's unusual to feel met around this kind of quality of emotional attention, like enough listening space to really unfold, like a [00:24:30] nonjudgmental presence.
[00:24:31] Someone with enough insight to help us make sight of and make a sense of things.
[00:24:36] Kathy Washburn: Yes, yes, that the, the liabilities of having this, this highly [00:24:45] sensitive, empathic, almost sometimes others directed, uh, for me, it left me just feeling insignificant. And, and needing to live through other people. So that validation [00:25:00] of, of making other people feel better or life easier or and just ignoring my own needs.
[00:25:10] The self
[00:25:11] Leonore Tjia: neglect. Self neglect and [00:25:15] martyrdom. Would you say?
[00:25:16] Kathy Washburn: I would definitely say martyrdom. which, in relationship one in particular I was called a martyr once in the early part, the early part of the relationship [00:25:30] I had two very young babies and I really needed help, but didn't Didn't know how that it worked really well when it was me on my own what you were just describing like self reliant don't need but then my world [00:25:45] started getting bigger and I couldn't handle it all.
[00:25:48] And when I was asking for help, I was Probably doing so in a very passive aggressive way, not clearly communicating because that was super scary to me. So [00:26:00] I was, I was called a martyr and I had to look the word up and I looked the word up. I was devastated. Were you angry or you were not then cause I've not been able to, I was not able to tap [00:26:15] into anger.
[00:26:15] No, no. It turned right into resentment. Okay, so
[00:26:20] Leonore Tjia: maybe I'm more of a shame. Yes. Semi resentment is a shade of anger, but
[00:26:25] Kathy Washburn: yeah. Yeah, that's as close as I think I could get to. [00:26:30] And there was a, how dare you? Yeah, there was a, how dare you? And then there was a resentment of him being able to be and do whatever he wanted to do anyway.
[00:26:44] And [00:26:45] me kind of allowing it like, wow, okay. I kind of asked for help, didn't get the help and now I'm a martyr. And so it was like the victim I played victim or played into that victim. Which [00:27:00] further entrenched me in the don't ask for what you need, you're not going to get it anyway, so just do it yourself, figure this out.
[00:27:08] Yes.
[00:27:09] Leonore Tjia: Your value is in what you do for other people, but you have to do it on your own and [00:27:15] perfectly and like never make anyone feel
[00:27:17] Kathy Washburn: uncomfortable. Yeah, which is a huge liability and gets really, really expensive. Very
[00:27:24] Leonore Tjia: expensive. I think that's very deep for white women in particular, too. I'll say, I think there's a way that the [00:27:30] race and gender come together in that.
[00:27:32] Like, it's your job to make everything perfect for everyone else, and, you know, you're not allowed to be angry or have needs.
[00:27:39] Kathy Washburn: Right. I remember having an argument with a friend of mine. [00:27:45] About the women's movement and saying and it was really her mother's words when she was talking. She's like, my mother tells me, you know, her generation, they fought, you know, for this women's movement.
[00:27:58] And I remember saying [00:28:00] to her, well, they left something out because yes, they gave us the ability to do it all. We were educated. We have a place, a place at work, still not. On par with [00:28:15] our male peers, and we can have children and we can have it all, but they forgot to give us the support to have that happen because there's no child care and.
[00:28:26] If you say you have to leave for your child, there's 10 [00:28:30] men giving you the evil eyeball, like, how dare you, especially if , their wives have chosen , to stay at home and it was just. This bizarre, you can have it, but let me, let me make it as hard as [00:28:45] possible. But don't you dare say that you don't have it because I worked hard.
[00:28:50] It's almost like women against women in this really tenuous relationship and no fault of [00:29:00] the generation that came before me. Or the, I see the generation, which you're a part of, of the one, uh, it's just kind of this weird. Still patriarch of the patriarchal still is [00:29:15] so embedded, so embedded when we try we try to move the needle and you make so much progress and and still there's this element that leads leads to a being a liability [00:29:30] for our own health and.
[00:29:32] And sense of, I think it's deep
[00:29:35] Leonore Tjia: for for women in particular, in the domestic matters of love and relationships and sexuality, because I think that, you know, as I said [00:29:45] earlier, the ways that women are trained to be the emotional caretakers of relationships creates a power differential and a skills differential in heterosexual relationships.
[00:29:57] And, and if you're [00:30:00] someone, if with a type C, if you are a woman with a type C personality, that amplifies it even more. Because then there's even less of a feeling of innate. And I use this word very intentionally, healthy entitlement [00:30:15] to your own needs and well being. There's less of that. There's less of that.
[00:30:19] It's even harder to take a stand for that. And it's even more normal to be in a relationship where the other person is not really collaborating and also caring for [00:30:30] your needs. And well, for caring for your well being.
[00:30:33] Kathy Washburn: Right. We attract what we most want and
[00:30:36] Leonore Tjia: we're prone to getting into very one sided relationships and, and not seeing how we are, how we do that.
[00:30:43] Kathy Washburn: Yes. Yes. [00:30:45] You are instrumental in helping me see, how this high empathy or. Highly sensitive or type C becomes a liability in relation in [00:31:00] relation. Can you talk about the four ways, or four of I'm sure this is list is not exhaustive for ways that you see how this shows up in relationship. Yeah,
[00:31:14] Leonore Tjia: [00:31:15] I, it's, I think there's more, but, you know, I sat down to do some writing about this and four just kind of came out.
[00:31:21] So one is. Definitely, definitely that it's very hard to set boundaries or just take a stand for what you need because it's very, very hard to be in touch with our own [00:31:30] needs. As we've been saying and the other another is that we I think they're really all sort of connected and expressions of the same thing we tend to suppress ourselves for the sake of the connection.
[00:31:39] So, if I, if I need something that I know you, can't give to [00:31:45] me easily. And I know that, if me bringing that up is going to cause conflict, or maybe just make you feel uncomfortable, I might just not bring that up at all, because really what it boils down to is that it [00:32:00] makes me uncomfortable to see you having these.
[00:32:02] hard feelings. And that can lead to these sort of bizarre experiences where then I might even be comforting you about how it's okay about how you're not meeting my needs.
[00:32:11] Kathy Washburn: Oh, so true. Which
[00:32:14] Leonore Tjia: is, I [00:32:15] think, a pattern that's, I think it's a manipulation really when one person repeatedly shame, shame spirals after being given feedback about something that a way they Could do better in [00:32:30] the relationship if they consistently go into shame and so that the other person has to is drawn into comforting them.
[00:32:38] I've actually come to see that that's quite a manipulative move there, even if it's not intentionally done. But yes, I think in these kinds of [00:32:45] dynamics, it makes it very easy for people like us to just sort of not bring things up the conflict avoidance is, you know, a big part of this learning, you have a healthier relationship with conflict is really critical.
[00:32:56] It's, it's imperative. For a [00:33:00] healing journey around this because when we don't have that, we're, we're just very likely to keep getting into one sided relationships and doing these. So that's the third one, the tendency to have one sided relationships where we really aren't, it's [00:33:15] not mutual. The care, the care, the emotional attention, the flow of resources and support is not mutual.
[00:33:22] And the fourth one is that an even more sort of escalated version of that is just being in rescuer dynamics [00:33:30] ourselves, where we derive self worth and feelings of self esteem from rescuing, helping, saving someone else. Which can turn into enabling
[00:33:41] and keep kind of continues dysfunctional cycles.
[00:33:44] Kathy Washburn: Yes,[00:33:45] we've gone through, you know, it's been a long 7 years and I keep telling you, I'm going to write a book. We're going to write a book together. And I think the name of that book is going to be called my lifelong love letter because it [00:34:00] really has. The work has led me to a level of self love.
[00:34:05] I did not know existed that self care that self love and the boundary setting. I'm just going to [00:34:15] touch on each 1 of these in relation to how we've worked together. This. How it's so hard to set boundaries, you know, a lot of people will look up like, okay, I want to have a better relationship. I need to set [00:34:30] boundaries, but if you're not in touch with your own needs, that is literally going to Lowe's for milk and eggs.
[00:34:38] You're just never going to find it there. And it's not even possible,
[00:34:44] Leonore Tjia: right? [00:34:45] Yeah, I think we're in a point culturally where the idea of having boundaries or being good at good with boundaries is sort of yeah. entering the public consciousness, but being able to set boundaries requires being in touch with your needs.
[00:34:57] Kathy Washburn: Right, right.
[00:34:59] Leonore Tjia: And [00:35:00] that usually itself is like a big, it's a developmental task for people. It usually takes some
[00:35:05] Kathy Washburn: work to get there for sure. Yes, and the other element of, setting boundaries require, it does, it [00:35:15] requires conflict. I mean, there's an element of meeting people, and not demanding it's going to be this way or that way, or what you've helped me learn and, express in relationships [00:35:30] is asking for what I need and realizing.
[00:35:33] They too have the ability to say no, and that is no reflection on me. That's their own stuff. I mean, before working with you, if somebody said no to [00:35:45] me in any uncertain terms, it was, why am I so bad? Why don't they like me? Why not? And it has nothing to do with me, but that could only come from this underlying self love of [00:36:00] I'm okay in myself, by myself.
[00:36:03] Without this person,
[00:36:05] Leonore Tjia: yeah, Marie Bowen talked about that in family therapy is differentiation like, you know, that like I exist and I'm okay, regardless of how you feel about me in this moment [00:36:15] and that with that is like, that I can, I can make a request and, you, you can say no but you're, you're allowed to have your own feelings and responses about how I am being and what I'm saying.
[00:36:27] In what I need and that, that neither [00:36:30] invalidates the other, which is for people like us, us type C, you know, highly sensitive folks who I think we, we merge so easily. I think that's really at the core of this type. We merge easily, we easily merge into landscapes and into [00:36:45] art and music and we can merge into people into beautiful moments of shared intimacy.
[00:36:50] And shared trance, I would even say. And so in that way, a lot of like, the self, a lot of the advice you get in couples therapy about like, how to be more [00:37:00] empathetic, how to like, listen better, is actually really hugely misplaced for us and potentially even quite... quite harmful because we don't need to learn how to merge better.
[00:37:10] We need to learn to do the opposite. We need to learn to differentiate.
[00:37:13] Kathy Washburn: Oh [00:37:15] man, that is super powerful. And what are some ways to learn how to differentiate? Oh man. Yeah.
[00:37:24] Leonore Tjia: I mean, I think therapies, you know, therapy has been really helpful for me. It's something I work on a lot [00:37:30] with clients, just, I think putting attention on it.
[00:37:32] When you start to put attention on how much am I emerging automatically, you'll probably start to see a lot. I think life gives us a lot of opportunities to explore. You know, I [00:37:45] think it's, it's always about, I think, creating relationships where it can, where it's safe enough to notice these things and try new things.
[00:37:52] And for a lot of people that, that might not be accessible outside of working with a professional in some way. I think [00:38:00] really creating the safety around it is, is key to be able to develop the skills and, you know, let it feel messy. But I think it just can even start on very, very micro levels of just.
[00:38:14] Tuning [00:38:15] into like, what do I need right now? And I think really working with the body is super powerful on this. I think when I started to look at this, I know, I remember having experienced once of, I was walking down the street with someone with whom I was in quite a merged codependent.
[00:38:28] Kathy Washburn: problematic [00:38:30] relationship with and I was like
[00:38:31] Leonore Tjia: holding her coat or something and like something was uncomfortable with my shoes and part of me I had that like I want to like stop and fix my shoes but she was talking and I was listening and [00:38:45] it just It just felt so hard to, I couldn't really stop, I couldn't actually say like, let's stop, I need to, and I remember that something happened where she like did that, like there was something she needed to adjust and she just stopped us and did it.
[00:38:59] And I remember [00:39:00] like, really clearly seeing in the moment that like, I didn't feel entitled, like I didn't feel capable of attending to like a physical, tangible need the way that someone else did. And that was when this awareness [00:39:15] started to come online, where I was like, wow, I really am stuck here. Yeah, and at the time, I had a lot of shame about it, and I think that's another thing that makes it hard, is like, for a lot of us, there's just so much shame in these things, that it's been a journey to create enough self [00:39:30] acceptance where I can really just like, look at it with a lot of curiosity, but...
[00:39:34] Yeah, I think just starting to come, just starting to, our, our bodies have a lot of needs. So the more attention we can put on the needs of our bodies and the sensations of [00:39:45] our bodies and just being more present with ourselves, because I think that's, you know, dissociation is very common for types like us.
[00:39:52] Hmm. Be a real, working with the body is a real portal of
[00:39:58] Kathy Washburn: healing for this, I find. [00:40:00] Yes, that was, that has been a huge step and I the bulk of our work together and, and really stuck. And, you know, most of us are taught to live from the head up where we're educated. [00:40:15] It's all about the knowledge. And we start to almost disassociate with our own bodies and, type C behavioral patterns.
[00:40:26] Exacerbate that even more and [00:40:30] depleting our immune system where it can potentially lead to disease.
[00:40:36] Leonore Tjia: Yes. Yes. Totally. I mean, what would you say has helped you and your, your own differentiation work? I think
[00:40:43] Kathy Washburn: the self pleasure or [00:40:45] learning learning again, I mean, I think I lead towards my portals of entry into this work are always in a positive light.
[00:40:55] I don't know why that is. Maybe it's just the safety, like the positive [00:41:00] psychology, the learning, my personal strengths, the, the pleasure factor. Allows me to then get to the pain.
[00:41:08] Leonore Tjia: Mm hmm. Totally. That makes sense. So, the work that you've done in your sexuality and around self [00:41:15] pleasure has been very resourcing for you.
[00:41:18] Yes. That was quite resourcing for me as well when I encountered that and started to... I think because the pleasure work brings in a lot more vitality. And I think also it's like what a lot of us need to just be like, yeah, [00:41:30] it's okay to be me. I'm feeling pleasure in my body like I'm, I can, I'm increasing my ability to feel pleasure and like run pleasure and turn on and sensual presence and like, we need a way of [00:41:45] being with ourselves.
[00:41:45] That's like, resourcing and rewarding and not just like, I'm present to the shame. I'm present to the inadequacy. I'm present to how not effective I
[00:41:54] Kathy Washburn: am. Gosh, yeah, we have a lot too much of that. So to outweigh it [00:42:00] with. That pleasure and be, and then being able to articulate in safe places, like asking for what we need, because we know what we know what we need when we're able to experience self pleasure [00:42:15] versus the, the old, like, let me just see if telepathically this other person can discern.
[00:42:21] Where to touch me, what to do, what, you know, putting the onus on somebody else, on the
[00:42:27] Leonore Tjia: other person, right, which is such a [00:42:30] heterosexual thing in particular. I think what this is helping me see that, like, a lot of the pleasure work you and I have both done is really a lot about female sexual agency and taking responsibility for our pleasure.
[00:42:42] So we've both done a lot of work that's like. [00:42:45] Really learning what do our bodies want and need, what feels good, like how do we understand our own bodies and pleasure response and be able to communicate that and expand how much pleasure we can feel and I think all that builds a lot of taking responsibility [00:43:00] for our experience, but in like a positive way, in a way that's very like resourcing and rewarding.
[00:43:06] Yes. Yes. Which
[00:43:07] Kathy Washburn: helps us be in reciprocal or, or expect reciprocal relationships in [00:43:15] other
[00:43:15] Leonore Tjia: ways. It definitely clarify clarifies it more when it's not happening from the other side. Yes.
[00:43:21] Kathy Washburn: Yes. Which you've witnessed me on many occasions where it's doesn't feel safe to be reciprocal or to be in [00:43:30] that reciprocal relationship.
[00:43:32] And my defense is. Freeze. So to just stop and stop myself from feeling anything and just serve the
[00:43:43] Leonore Tjia: other person and serve
[00:43:44] Kathy Washburn: the [00:43:45] other person. So I almost take myself out of the ability to be reciprocal, right? You shut it down yourself. I shut it down myself. And slowly learning how to not do that. Yeah.
[00:43:58] Leonore Tjia: Unwinding. Yeah.[00:44:00]
[00:44:00] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. Even if that means being angry.
[00:44:04] Leonore Tjia: Yeah, about something that's not working for you. Yeah, or if
[00:44:09] Kathy Washburn: or about when somebody doesn't treat me very kindly. And, you know, before I [00:44:15] would just freeze and kind of absorb it and then almost go to this place of, Oh, wait, I, I really do want them to like me.
[00:44:23] And our work together is like, do you though?
[00:44:27] Leonore Tjia: Like, do you, like, is, what if that [00:44:30] wasn't the only option? Like. Ari, do you want to be invested in this person's
[00:44:34] Kathy Washburn: approval? Right, right. I don't have to be, and it's not, it's not attached to who I am on my own. It's again that, that self [00:44:45] acceptance, giving myself permission to be where I am, knowing that I'm just one step closer.
[00:44:51] I don't need to boil the ocean all at the same time. That we haven't even talked about
[00:44:56] Leonore Tjia: perfectionism and how much that is.
[00:44:59] Kathy Washburn: [00:45:00] Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's another element.
[00:45:03] Leonore Tjia: Yeah. I think that that can really come up in the freeze response to of like, I need to know how to do this and I don't know how to do it. So I'm just stopping and I think a big part of the healing work we've [00:45:15] I've seen definitely seen you over time grow and your ability to just be like, this is where I am right now.
[00:45:20] Like, just each step meeting each step with curiosity. And less like frustration about like, I'm not where I want to be, or like, I want this to be [00:45:30] solved.
[00:45:30] Kathy Washburn: Right. And I have, you know, that I'm such a mad fan of Rick Hansen's work in neuroplasticity. And I do, I do practice what I preached there where when I do experience something [00:45:45] different where I was able to take myself out of the freeze.
[00:45:50] And. Respond differently and be able to, you know, speak my feelings clearly, even, even if it's going to make somebody [00:46:00] else upset and really letting that sink in. Like, wow, the world didn't end. The person didn't blow up and turn into smoke. Like nobody died. It was a safe thing to do to just give my, my [00:46:15] brain, this other path that I can You can say to somebody, Hey, that didn't feel so hot.
[00:46:22] Yeah. It didn't make me feel good. And, and letting it be witness. Like, wow. And most of [00:46:30] the times people are like, wow, I didn't even realize I hurt your feelings. Right. With the people that I'm in relationship now, who I think I'm gathering or attracting a different level of person. And I don't know if previous years, [00:46:45] that was.
[00:46:45] What I was collecting.
[00:46:48] That the other thing I wanted to, well, actually, before we leave that topic, I just think that it would benefit the world that is listening to [00:47:00] understand that you and I have, created a type D. Personality, which is where we want to move to and that is like don't fuck with me, you know, like really feeling strongly about [00:47:15] me mattering and my feelings being important and.
[00:47:18] Because I can now feel them. I need, you know, I, it's an act of self respect to ask for what I need when I feel them. So that [00:47:30] type C transformation leads you into this type D, which I just think is such a thing to aspire to. Right? Yes. Yes. And I also wanted to get your thoughts. I write a lot [00:47:45] about the difference between therapists and coaches.
[00:47:49] I'm a coach, and I often recommend that people Also see a therapist and some people I say what, you know, what you're dealing [00:48:00] with is not in my purview, go see a therapist. But I find the most powerful as when you're working with a coach and a therapist, because the therapist is helping you with that how I became and how that's [00:48:15] influencing who I'm being in this moment.
[00:48:17] And the coach can kind of help you. See the, the good in you and, and kind of futuristic with the help of a therapist. So it's, it's this [00:48:30] sustainable model of health that I don't think is touted enough because, and people just like you and I both know a type C personality or people with these. Traits often they're the last [00:48:45] person that they're going to invest in because just their way of being has always been, I got to, I got to serve the people outside and around me, I come last.
[00:48:56] So I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that, on that model [00:49:00] and kind of ideas to help people get started. Yeah.
[00:49:05] Leonore Tjia: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, right? Because more and more there's, there's people. Getting trained in therapy modalities or working on license, which I have [00:49:15] done and do. And, then there's people who, I feel like the, the lines between coaching and therapy, are keep getting blurred.
[00:49:22] Yeah,
[00:49:23] Kathy Washburn: and they can be dangerous. I mean, we both have been in situations where the people helping us[00:49:30] could not really hold it.
[00:49:31] Leonore Tjia: Yeah, right. I think it's important to. And anyone you work with really assess their understanding of the
[00:49:38] Kathy Washburn: role that they hold and
[00:49:39] Leonore Tjia: like, really look at what is, what is the agreement between what are we [00:49:45] doing?
[00:49:45] Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, I mean, I think, I think that working, I just, I'm a big advocate of just working with, really giving yourself permission to explore and find the practitioners that are right for you. Hmm. And it can be really [00:50:00] different in different seasons of life, you know, I mean, broadly, as I understand it, like the people who, who coaches can really help with more like future oriented work, like figuring out your goals and your visions and sort of assessing how effective you're being in that, [00:50:15] which for, you know, works for people who struggle to take action on their own behalf, I think can provide like a lot of motivation and resource that can be really helpful.
[00:50:27] You know, and also like not all therapists [00:50:30] necessarily do a lot of work with the past. Some people, some therapists really are much more here and now, present, or really working with the body in a here and now way. But it always contains the imprints of the past too. It doesn't necessarily have to be [00:50:45] talking about, talking about the past in more traditional talk therapy, psychodynamic ways.
[00:50:50] But I think it's so great to just, Be open to finding people that can meet you where you want to be met and, that feel right for the season of life that you're [00:51:00] in. Sometimes we, we can focus on those us perfectionistic overachievers, can kind of be more oriented towards the goal orient, more go, sorry, go more into the goal oriented approaches because it's uncomfortable to look at [00:51:15] what's not really working.
[00:51:16] Kathy Washburn: Yes. Yes. Another way not to invest in yourself.
[00:51:19] Leonore Tjia: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm a supporter of a great diversity of professionals who can hold different, you know, different perspectives. And I certainly have quite a, a large pantheon [00:51:30] of practitioners that I work with as well. It's been very supportive and necessary for
[00:51:35] Kathy Washburn: my own healing.
[00:51:36] Yes, I agree. I love the way that you answered that, because having that, I mean, I'm stupidly rich with people that [00:51:45] support me in so many different ways, that all, it's like a perfect perfect. Perfect. collision to help me get to where I'm going. So there is not one, and I love the idea of whatever season in life that you [00:52:00] are, because it changes, right?
[00:52:02] It
[00:52:02] Leonore Tjia: really does change. Our needs change so much in different seasons. And I would just say, you know, to, to anyone who's considering finding a practitioner to do some work with, just really find someone [00:52:15] who feels like the right fit for you. Relationship is always the most important. Element in the efficacy of any modality.
[00:52:23] So really looking for someone where you are going to feel seen and met and understood and partnered with [00:52:30] and clarity about what are the goals and. Where it feels the way that you want it to feel,
[00:52:35] Kathy Washburn: yes, and and strongly knowing that you can say, no, if any of those things are not met[00:52:45] in the world of practitioners.
[00:52:47] We'll support support that if that's a place to practice to say no, that's a safe place to practice in most cases. Now, your hairdresser, if you ditch your hairdresser, that's a little more challenging. [00:53:00] I broke up with my hair, that woman that used to do my hair for years, and then she moved places and I saw her again.
[00:53:07] I was like. Huh. I felt so badly. She didn't. She didn't. She was kind of pissed off, but yeah, practitioner, [00:53:15] not so much. Yeah. There
[00:53:17] Leonore Tjia: is a big journey of self advocacy just around navigating healing professionals, isn't it? I mean, I know you've worked with your work with the medical industry and medicine and doctors are so many paternalistic attitudes [00:53:30] that can be really kind of re traumatizing around the type C stuff,
[00:53:34] Kathy Washburn: honestly.
[00:53:35] Mm hmm. Definitely. Oh, it's always a pleasure. I feel like we could start our own little Netflix series like Jonah Hill did [00:53:45] and just have these candid conversations about highly sensitive empath type C. Perfectionism and go to town. So definitely would love to have you on here [00:54:00] again.
[00:54:00] Leonore Tjia: That's great. I'm definitely down to be your queer millennial therapist
[00:54:03] Kathy Washburn: representing this.
[00:54:08] Welcome. Welcome. I'm going to ask you a question. I asked you three years ago. I ask it to all. All [00:54:15] the people I interview, but I've watched you change just as much as I've changed. So I'm thinking a different answer might be there. If I were to crush your essence up and put it in a pill, what effect would you [00:54:30] have on someone taking this pill?
[00:54:31] Well, does it have to be
[00:54:33] Leonore Tjia: a pill? Can it
[00:54:33] Kathy Washburn: be a tincture? Oh, definitely a tincture. Damn. I feel like I'm more of a
[00:54:38] Leonore Tjia: luscious potion
[00:54:39] Kathy Washburn: than a pill, personally. You are more of a luscious potion. There's no [00:54:45] doubt.
[00:54:45] Leonore Tjia: I think I'm more of a luscious potion and I think it would be, it would, there would be a, the subjective experience of ingesting it would feel quite seductive.
[00:54:57] Ooh, but while it's At [00:55:00] its work inside you, you would experience like a deep, these ancestral awakenings into like you would feel your lineage to your lineages and the earth coming alive. And you [00:55:15] would like feel the earth in a very tangible, sensual, sensuous way. And, yeah, I would definitely. There would be like a big, there would be a surge of creativity and a surge of vitality [00:55:30] in, in a bit of a ferocious way.
[00:55:32] So it might make you seem a bit dangerous to other
[00:55:35] Kathy Washburn: people. Dang, could I put my order in for that? You and I have both found ourselves in the last year or so in the beautiful [00:55:45] state of Vermont. And I think that both of us were attracted in a similar way. Which, makes that, that result of that tincture possible just everywhere you walk, you know, you're walking on the roots [00:56:00] of a tree.
[00:56:00] I mean, it's just underneath your feet everywhere, which. That connection. I'm going to, I'm going to make that connection a little more clearly when I take my dog for a hike later, because I do believe that that's what's [00:56:15] available. When you're open to that connection, I like the ferociousness. Yes, we start, we will start manufacturing this tincture.
[00:56:25] With the contact information [00:56:30] that you'll find in the show notes, because I know that this is, this is exactly what you experience she holds such a beautiful place for allowing you to just be. Messy in [00:56:45] whatever it is that you're dealing with and helping you rise through the mist of it instead of, go underwater.
[00:56:53] It's a self love that is, I think the other interview that I did with you, I think I called it [00:57:00] radical self love. Did I? Yes. I think so. Mm hmm. And that's what this is all about, really getting radical about your own self love so that you can tap into the [00:57:15] absolute beauty and gifts that come from being an empath, a highly sensitive person, or one that can긍 Relate to type C behavioral patterns.
[00:57:27] There's another side.
[00:57:28] Leonore Tjia: There is [00:57:30] definitely. Yeah, that is the foundation of so many more rewarding relationships and experiences of being in the world.
[00:57:39] Kathy Washburn: Yes. Thank you, Leonor. Anything you want to add? No, just
[00:57:44] Leonore Tjia: thank you so [00:57:45] much for this lovely tour. It's been, I, I received the flowers from you and I'm really grateful for everything you've brought
[00:57:52] Kathy Washburn: into my life as well.
[00:57:54] Yes. Until next time, because I know there's going to be a next time. See you in [00:58:00] another three years. Yes. Let's make it sooner than that. I have a feeling we're going to have the requests to do that. So you be well, my friend.
[00:58:08]
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