'Tiger King,' Virus Make Wildlife a Bipartisan Issue

Bloomberg Law. I'm your host, David Schultz. So we all know that the coronavirus pandemic is hey big deal that's putting it mildly, and scientists believe that the pandemic started from a so called wet market in China where live animals are sold. So dealing with wildlife trafficking is a pretty big priority for a lot of people. Additionally, a lot of people have been watching a show on Netflix

about wildlife trafficking called Tiger King. I certainly have, and it is created a lot of momentum for this issue. Here to talk with us about what Congress might do as a result of all this momentum is Dean Scott. Dean you and reporter Stephen Lee wrote a story about what's happening on Capitol Hill. And one of the things I got from your story is that the sale of live animals in the US is way way less regulated

than I thought it would be. Can you describe the regulatory scheme for this and just how many different groups and entities are responsible for regulating wildlife trafficking here in

the States. Well, there's basically a tremendous I would call it a sort of byzantine arrangement here between federal regulators, local and state regulators when it comes to the sale of a couple different things exotic pets in one bucket, and then you have illicit or even illegal wildlife trafficking, which the Fish and Wildlife Service working with the State Department and even internationally with INTERPOL, the international organization that

sort of looks at a lot of illegal international efforts. And then when it comes to your markets, the markets that you might see in some urban centers in the US that mix let's say, the sale of live poultry that might have seafood or live lobsters, crustaceans, that tends to be in either the regulatory area of the state or even the local health department. So we even found that within the USDA, there's actually different sections of the

USDA that regulate things that go to market. For example, one group at USDA regulates the welfare of animals that are sold and many of them later butchered. And then a different part of USDA, we sort of call it the cutlet regulators. They come in and regulate, you know,

the things that come out of the meat factory. So what we found is that basically there's already a complication between the intersection between illicit wildlife trafficking and the so called web markets, and then there's further complication between all of the groups within the US that tried to regulate the different components of those Yeah, I mean from your story, the story that you and Stephen wrote, I got the sense that it's just sort of almost a coincidence that

this virus started in China at this web market, that you know, the regulations in the US are pretty lax, and that you know, it could have easily started here or elsewhere. I mean, is that what are some of the concerns that lawmakers that you talked to were expressing about the sale of wildlife here in the US. Well, the conditions of the markets in China, and they're not just in China. Some of the pandemics that we've been focusing on in the last twenty years. Have it originated there?

And these concerns came up earlier with the SARS virus. And when you think about it's not so much the seafood market. We don't really consider our markets here in the US wet markets, but you know a market with fish on ice that you might see those aren't as much of a concern in the sense that or as long as they don't mix. The sale of mammals, the sale of bears, the sale of exotic pets, many of many of these can be endangered. And in the US

you might think, well, is that really a concern. I mean, in the US we don't see a lot of this trafficking on the streets or in markets. That may be true to some extent, but you do see the US is one of the biggest traffickers of illicit wildlife in the world. And that's why we have pretty big, big sections of not just Fish and Wildlife Service, but enforcement arms of fish, Wildlife Service and State Department and these

other groups working on those issues. And those are the kinds of things where, for example, you still see to this day the sale of rhino materials ivory. You don't have to go that far in some urban centers in the US to find works of art quote unquote that are made from that material. Well, that kind of leads me perfectly into the next question I wanted to ask you,

which is that what is Congress doing about this? I mean, one of the things I got from your story is that a lot of key lawmakers who sit on very important committees, this is on their radar and they're very concerned about it. But it sounds like the main thing that's going to come from this is that the Fish and Wildlife Service is going to get more money. Their budget is going to be increased. Is that the sense that you get, And if so, by how much more

money are they going to get? That's right? I think I think you're going to see a lot more interested in this. What you see with these big global events, or at least events that really sort of rock the economy or impact health and safety, is you see congressional

tension spike. And I think with any any issue, and this is not to be cynical, but any issue that's as large as this with the pandemic, you're going to see a lot of parts moving on Capitol Hill to say, look, we have a piece of the response to this pandemic. What are we doing about it? And is this a

chance to raise the profile of our issue. I think if you can make a good case that that you can make a good case that wildlife trafficking is a concern that we all have and it has to be part of a pandemic response, you can make a pretty

good argument that that funding has to be increased. And I'd also say that you have have a lot of folks in the conservation arena and a lot of the congressional representatives who basically have been pushing for this for a long time, working with a number of interesting sort of Republican voices Lindsey Graham, but also other Republicans who

have been reliable allies on conservation. But they also have a sort of second interest, which is they do see this as an opportunity to raise some of the issues that have been going on with China and our relationship with China. Wow, that actually, that is really strange. People who both want to be conservationists and also tough on China, and I guess they're teaming up. So we're going to take a quick break now. But when we come back. We're going to talk about, of course, Tiger King. We

can't avoid it, but stay with us. We'll be right back. So we're back, and we're talking with Dean Scott about what is going to be happening on Capitol Hill with wildlife trafficking in the wake of the virus and in the wake of Tiger King. So let's get into it. You know, the show is a big hit. I watched it. I can't say I loved watching it. I think I love to hate to watch it, but it's a big de people. A lot of people are talking about this, and this is the kind of thing that can really

create momentum on Capitol Hill. You know, you were talking about agencies getting more money in their budgets, but do you think we'll see any standalone bills policy changes as a result of the pandemic or the attention around this

TV show. Yeah, it's interesting, I find you know, the interesting thing about this show is number one, it came at a time to you know, focusing on this issue of keeping big cats, and I think kind of exposed Whether you think that's interesting and fun or whether you think this raises really big concerns about about private citizens

basically collecting big cats. And I think what's interesting is the timing of the release of that program on Netflix basically coinciding, not purposefully, but it just coincidentally happened to coincide with what we're seeing with this pandemic. What I think is unclear is whether the result of the show, the kinds of concerns that it prompts, are necessarily going to be pushing for Congress or for states to do something about it. I think there's a lot of when

I talk to people who have watched the show. When I watched the show, when you know, when I sort of look at the reaction it's having in terms of its audience, some people think it's perfectly fine to to to be able to have it's sort of an issue of conservative versus liberal government. Yeah, well, I mean, and even one of one of the scenes in the show itself was that some of the characters who are advocating for tiger breeding and you know who keep tigers, were

lobbying on Capitola Hill. They held an event with Representative Don Young and Avid a sportsman himself. So this is, you know, an issue that has already been on Capitol Hill, even before the show came out. Yeah, and there's a federal bill that came out of that, the Big Cat Public Safety Act, to stop they call it cub petting, but essentially the development of tiger cubs into sort of pets, and then that drives a certain amount of breeding and ownership.

At the end of the day, you get pets in backyards. And I do think it's an issue that we're going to hear about on Capitol Hill. Part of this, you know, as always, you know how many times when we're having a conversation about this, does it not come back to an election? And we have a big one coming up in twenty twenty, and so we're going to have You know, this is not beyond the realm of possibility to see

the Senate flip. I could see that I could see issues like this coming to the fore, and you know, when you have a huge number of lawmakers. There were hundreds of lawmakers on this letter, senators and members of the House basically urging the World Health Organization and other international groups to really put pressure on China to eliminate these wet markets. The wildlife component, the illicit trafficking of wildlife and the sale of those being part of that push.

I think that's not going away. I guess I hadn't thought about that until you brought it up. But you're totally right that it's an election year. You have a conservation angle and you have a tough on China angle. It just seems like the political incentives are all pushing in one direction for both parties. I mean, it's that makes me think that there really is going to be a lot of action on this sometime this year. Yeah.

And although we have seen this issue before with wet markets and with pandemics, but nothing those pandemics pale in comparison. Something is going to have to be done about that intersection in those markets, this trade of mammals and and illicit wildlife being slaughtered or sold. I think we're going to see a lot of pressure here too in the US. You know, the US, it does not certainly have the

kinds of wet markets that China has. On the other hands, on the other hand, were not perfect either, and the regulators here are stretched thin, and there certainly is not a very cohesive approach to make sure that a local market is being looked at by local and state folks regularly and then how those animals are treated is being addressed at the federal level. That's not really happening, and I don't think anybody can really make the argument that

it is all right. That was Dean Scott talking about a story that he and Steven Lee wrote on wildlife trafficking. To read the story, or to just read about any wildlife or environmental news in general, go to our website Newstop Bloomberg environment dot com. Today's episode was produced by myself along with Josh Block and Marissa Horn. Parts Rebellion was created by Rachel Daegel and Jessica Coombs. The music for Parts Rebellion today was a Message by Jazarre and

Upstate by Henning Schmidts. They were used under a Creative Comments license. Thank you everyone for listening. Taxes and accounting are complicated, but finding a good tax podcast shouldn't be. I'm Sirivlusu and I'm Amanda Icone. Listen to Talking Tax, the podcast that breaks down all of these issues on a weekly basis. Every Thursday, Talking Tax will explain the latest issues for you, from what Congress is working on,

to legal rulings to the global digital tax debate. Download and subscribe to talking tax wherever you get your podcasts,