The Morning After and Federal Agencies Hang in Balance

election here in the US yesterday. Maybe you heard about it, and we decided to just get a few reporters on the line and chat it out and find out what's going to be happening with the environmental agencies that we all cover, regardless of the outcome of the election, which as of this moment is still unknown. So I'm joined here today by Stephen Lee, Bobby McGill, and Pat Rizzuto, who are all on Bloomberg Law's environment desk. This conversation was recorded a few moments ago, and let's get right

into it. Of course, we don't know who the next president is going to be, but let's start with Stephen. Stephen, you know, if Joe Biden becomes the next president, what does the EPA look like? Who would be even leading the EPA. Well, I'm going to give you three names on the shortlist for EPA chief. One is Mary Nichols. She's the chair of the California Air Resources Board. She's

been one of the Trump administration's biggest adversaries. She's the person who has pushed back really hard on things like the EPA's decision to take back California's waiver to set its own greenhouse gas limits from cars. She's also former EPA Chief of Aaron Radiation under President Clinton, so she knows her way around that agency, and she also has the support of a lot of national environmental groups. So you would have to say that Mary Nichols has the

inside track on the job. Two other names. One is Heather McTeer Tony. She's the former Southeast Regional Administrator of the EPA under President Obama. And she makes sense because she has worked hard throughout her career on environmental justice issues, and we know that's going to be a top priority of the Biden administration. So if Joe Biden wants to make good on his promise to take action for fence

line communities, then Tony makes sense. The third name, Jay Insley, Governor of Washington, You'll remember he ran for president this year and his campaign was very heavily focused on climate change. He actually asked for an entire debate on climate change. So he's a guy. He's got a national profile and a good amount of, you know, star power that could

raise the profile in the APA. One wrinkle is that he also won his re election bid for governor last night, but it doesn't mean that he's out of the running for the Biden cabinet. That's a great point, and I'm glad you brought up environmental justice because I actually want to go to Pat now and talk about what the situation would be on environmental justice if Joe Biden does end up becoming president. You know, this is an issue that the Obama administration, I think, tried to do a

lot of work on. The Trump administration received a lot of criticism for not doing enough work on this issue. Would that then switch if Biden becomes president, Pat, Well, if Biden were to be president, every single person I've interviewed expects environmental justice to be front and center throughout his administration, not just an EPA, but in other agencies.

And let's just look at what each candidate said when NBC's Kristin Welker, who moderated the last presidential debate, asked them about the people who live near oil refineries and chemical plants who are scared that they're getting sick from emissions and often can point to ill neighbors to show why they're scared. President Trump talked about the vast amount of money chemical and oil finery workers earned. Well, there's truth in that they do tend to be very well compensated.

But those highly compensated workers don't tend to live on the fence lines of the factories where they work. His reply didn't address the issue. Vice President Giden understood exactly what Kristen was talking about. He said, my response is that those people who live on what are called fence lines are worried by things like the oil slicks they see on the car windshields and the illnesses they see

their neighbors facing. So he said, quote, the fact is that is those frontline communities, it's not a matter of what you're paying them, it matters how you keep them safe. You impose restrictions on the pollutants coming out of the factories. That's the position he's going to bring, right I want to shift to though, because you know, the e p A is not the only agency that has a big impact on the environmental policy of the federal government. Let's

talk about the Department of the Interior. If Biden were to, you know, pull this out and become the next president, who is on the short list to head up that department? And you know why? I guess so there are three names that that keep coming up for potential Interior Secretary under a Biden administration. One would be Senator Tom Udall, who is stepping down after at the end of the year.

He would would follow along. His family, of course, is well known for its conservation His father, well Stuart Udall, who served as Interior Secretary under President's Kennedy and Johnson. Tom Udall's uncle was Moe Udall, another former senator known for his conservation legacy. Ah, I hate, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I I have to point out that my childhood home in Tucson, Arizona, was a five minute walk from

Moe Udall Park, So shout out to Arizona. And speaking of Tucson, another name we've heard is Representative Rel Grijalva, who represents UH Tucson. He's also the chairman of the House Natural Resources Committee. You know, they're they're not commenting on, you know, what their intentions are if Biden wins. But another so, Tom Udall is from New Mexico, also from

New Mexico. Another name we we hear is and has been recommended by environmental groups is deb Hayland, congress woman from from New Mexico, and she if she were to become Interior Secretary, she would be the first Native American Interior secretary we've ever had. And uh so those are the three names that that that come up, and all of them would would you know, pretty uh soundly shift the focus of Trump's from you know, Trump's fossil fuel

agenda to a more conservation oriented agenda under Biden. Well, that was an excellent segue there, Bobby. But I want to stick with Bobby and Stephen for just a second because I want to talk about again sticking with the scenario if Biden, you know, does become president, would we just see a continuation of the policies that existed at these agencies, the EPA and Interior from the Obama administration. You know, would we have Sally Jewel two point zero

or you know Gena McCarthy two point oh. Let's start with Bobby. Do you think that you know that that would be the case. I don't think so. Actually, I think that they would take a step beyond that. Actually, I think that, you know, climate change would become much greater focus in my management decisions and and so I think that's it's climate change is going to be a major focus, much more so than than in the Obama administration.

But also environmental justice. I think that uh, Native communities throughout the West and and and in Alaska will have probably a much greater voice in lend land management decisions. And uh, you know you're going to see you know, more public plans protected. And I think that, you know, it's it really is going to sort of build upon the Obama administration's legacy, but will also you know, rolling back, you know, the the deregulation efforts that the Trump administration

has taken over the last four years. Stephen, you know, it seems like Bobby is saying that, you know, we won't have as Sally Jewel two point zero, Well, we have a Gena McCarthy two point oho at the e p A. If Biden becomes president. Well, Jena McCarthy was really aggressive, and I think that you know, the broad course that the Democratic Party wants to chart for the e p A really hasn't changed that much. I mean, it's the same basic agenda on clean air, clean water,

renewable energy, sustainability on down the list. So the goals are broadly the same. But if anything's different now, it's that there is a greater sense of urgency. In part because Joe Biden made environmental issues such a big part of his campaign. There's to be pressure on him to follow through on those promises. And of course we are running at a time to do something about the effects of climate change globally, and there is a growing awareness

of that. And then you add to that the fact that they've got the Biden administration is going to have so much work to do if they want to undo the rules the Trump EPA put in place. So even if the agenda hasn't really changed, the urgency I think is greater now. They're going to need to staff up quickly and be really efficient and effective and professional to get things done quickly. Pat I wanted to ask you about another one of the sort of signature environmental issues

that we've been covering a lot. It's not climate change. It's p FASSU, the toxic nonstick chemical that has been sing or being found in a lot of water ways and water sources across the country. If President you know, if President Trump loses his reelection bid and we get a new administration, do you see a radically different approach to regulating p fas. Do you see the federal government taking a much bigger role, or do you see that we have this state by state approach continuing on? Well,

a couple of things. First, p FAST isn't one chemical, It's a huge group of chemicals. Yes, that's right. We are very diverse in the ways that they may affect people, may affect the environment. And I think we need to look at both scenarios. There's so much uncertainty in the election at this point. So if I look at a second Trump administed straation, what I would foresee happening is some regulatory action on a couple of the pfas ones known as PFOA and p FAST, some sort of limits

on those nationally. P four was the one in Dark Waters. In the Dark Waters movie, p FOSS three m phased out in the early two thousands, so almost two decades ago, and PPA quickly did a backstep of regulations so that it's very hard for any other company to make or import them into the United States that p foss line. So I see him taking action on drinking water because so many states are regulating it in so many different ways.

It's a real conundrum for industries. So it's just crying out for a national approach, and I think his adminised stration will take that. Whether it will take specific action on other p fasts or beyond drinking water is, according to the people I spook to, far more of an open question. He's far more likely to continue researching the chemicals. The Biden administration would be expected to act more quickly on more p fasts, definitely issuing drinking water regulations, possibly

on hazardous waste. Hazardous waste just has so many implications. It might not come as fast as some of his supporters would like, and his actions may not be as comprehensive as some of his supporters would like because they are such a big group and hundreds of them are really important to many, many different industries. So a Biden administration is likely to rely on the science, and the science may not support a class based you know, every thing with the name Pete Bass attached to it gets

thrown out the door. That's a good point. Pat also made another good point, which is that the election outcome is far from certain. Uh. President Trump could uh definitely still win another four years. So Bobby and Steven I wanted to talk with you guys about what the your agencies that you cover will look like, you know, if we have another, you know, four years of Trump. Bobby, let's start with you. UH will the current Secretary of the Interior, UH, David Bernhardt? Will he stay on? And

if not, who do you think would repla him? Ultimately? I we don't know yet. There's just not haven't been able to get anybody on the record to talk to me about UH Bernhard's intentions, So we don't know, and it's not entirely clear who's going to replace him, you know, I think if if he decides to step down. So it's just too early to say, uh, but I think, you know, if whether he stays on or not, we're going to continue to see sort of a doubling down

on the deregulatory agenda. In a second Trump term in the Interior Department, We're going to see you know, even more expanded oil and gas development or leasing and uh, you know, and there are gonna be some things I you know, I would expect that some of the things that that have sort of been off the table so far, such as public lands disposal and that sort of thing, you know, reducing the size of even more national monuments

and and uh, you know, various things. I think we're I think we're going to see a little bit more of a focus on that. I think that's more of a possibility. And so you know, again it's just doubling down. I think a few other things we might we might see are you know, uh, continued implementation of its National Environmental Policy Act rules, uh, with less and less credence given to the public's voice, less transparency about federal lands decisions.

Those are those are the rules that determine you know, all the documents and studies that the federal government has to do before it makes a move that could affect the environment. Right and you know, a lot of environmental groups have challenged decisions, uh, you know, land management decisions and whatnot in court, and courts have said that you know, these these decisions have have violated NEPA and various other

laws depending on the case. But you know, uh, you know, industry tells me that this is going to be a chance, you know, a second Trump term is going to give the the Trump administration a chance to fully defend itself in court and to you know, expand upon the you know, the fossil fuels or energy dominant's agenda as it says, in a second Trump term. And finally, Steven, let's finish with you. If the president wins reelection, Andrew Wheeler, I would imagine would stay on at EPA. But the question

is for how long would he stay on for? I mean another four full year term. Uh uh, that would you know? I guess it's impossible to say at this point. But what's his future looking like and what would be the future of the e p A under you know, another Trump administration. Wheeler has recently said he wants to stay on, and I get the feeling that President Trump is happy with his performance. He has done a good

job of executing the Trump agenda. So there's no indication that he's going anywhere, at least not not anytime soon. If the president does win reelection. So if that, if that happens, what's the EPA's next big policy push. Andrew Wheeler has said recently that in the next four years, the EPA is going to focus on what he calls community driven environmentalism, by which he means breaking down the silos when the agency looks at air, land, and water

issues in communities. He wants to address things like brownfields, grants, and environmental justice issues, air quality issues all at the same time in a holistic way, and he says this is going to be helpful to frontline, low income communities of color. He's also said that he wants EPA to help states permit projects faster because the new bottlenecks are going to be at the state level. Now that, as Bobby just said, you know, NITA reform is on the books.

So when the EPA is renewing state delegated programs, according to Wheeler, they're going to look not just out of state's enforcement statistics, but also they're permitting programs. And whether that means the e PA will actually revoke permitting authority from states that take too long to issue permits, that remains to be seen. But we do know that this administration believes in federalism. And then the final thing I'll mention is that the the e PA is going to

do a separate science transparency rule for each statute. This is the rulemaking that's still in the works that I mean. I won't go into all the details, but basically, environmentalists don't like this idea because they think it's a way of handcuffing future e p A administrations from you know, finalizing rules. Wheeler has said that this is all about transparency, and he says that if there's a separate science transparency rule for each of v p A statutes, that's going

to mean there's less of a chance for litigation. It's another thing that the e PA will work to finish if Trump wins reelection. They do have a lot of work to do here because these are separate rulemakings. And they're also going to do the same thing with cost benefit rules, creating a separate one for each of their statutes. So those are I think some of the big agenda

items if Trump wins reelection. Even just to add to that, I've heard that that science rule is one of the first things Biden would toss that gives you an idea of sort of the potential outcomes here depending on what we find out or you know, what we learn when we know who the next president will be, and two weeks from today will be back here on Parts Revillion.

We're going to take next week off for Veterans Day, but if we do know who the president is at that point, we will be sure to let you know. If you want more environmental news, check us out on Twitter. We use a pretty easy to remember handle. It's at Environment. Just that at Environment, and I'm at David B. Schultz if you want to discuss anything with me today. This episode of Parts Rebellion was produced by myself and Josh Block. Parts Rebellion was created by Jessica Coombs and Rachel Daegel.

The music for today's episode is a message by Jizarre and Smoking Monkey by Tom Hillock and Nicholas Baskovich that were used under a Creative Commons license. Thank you everyone for listening, and thank you to you three for joining me on this post election morning. Hi. I'm Laura Carlson, and I'm dropping into your feed to tell you about Prognosis, a new daily show from Bloomberg. Monday through Friday. We'll spend a few minutes with you every afternoon to help

you understand life in the time of COVID nineteen. The show was available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. So come back every afternoon for our coverage and stay safe.