Biden Environment Goals Collide With Divided Congress

what Biden wants to do? Or can his nominees even get confirmed by the Senate? Those are all questions we're going to be asking here in Washington, DC and also on this podcast over the next few weeks and months now. The last time the White House switch from Republican to Democratic was back in January of two thousand and nine, and back then Democrats had huge majorities in both chambers of Congress. That it is most definitely not the case

this time around. So naturally one would think that means Biden will accomplish little on environmental issues, but that's not going to go over well with a lot of the environmental activists that make up a part of the Democratic Party's coalition, and especially not the Sunrise Movement, a powerful youth led group that has a lot of sway on climate change policy. To discuss this, I rang up Dean Scott,

a Bloomberg Law reporter who covers the environment. We spoke yesterday afternoon about how Biden's administration will differ from Obama's on the environment, and we also talked about Biden's selection of John Kerry, an Obama administration veteran, as a Special Presidential Envoy for climate change. I was not necessarily thinking John Kerry was going to come back to play a

role in this administration. As I'm sure you know, John Kerry, the former Senator from Massachusetts, chairman and also a Secretary of State, worked on the Paris Climate Accord, was fairly intimately involved with that, and I certainly saw an enhanced role for him on the climate issue, maybe even the

global stage once Biden was elected. To see him brought into the White House, and he'll be the first climate official ever with a seat on the National Security Council in this sort of new position, I think that's a really interesting signal that really provides a really interesting place for John Carry to serve a role in this administration. So it seems like by choosing Kerrie for this role,

Biden is really elevating the issue of climate change. However, You've also done some interesting reporting on the pick of Cedric Richmond as a senior White House official. He's someone who has been much friendlier to the oil and gas industry. Can you talk about that. Yeah, the Cedric Richmond appointment, you know, to some role was expected because he's a Democrat.

He was very involved in Biden's campaign, and so there was some expectation that he might have some role in this new role as a sort of victual advisor for engagement. The idea is he'll reach out from the White House and be sort of a point person to interact with the climate advocacy community, but also business groups, other folks

that want to bring things to the administration. Representative Richmond's positions in part because he represents Louisiana, a district in Louisiana he basically as has been criticized as being too close to fossil fuel interests, and his appointment actually drew some some some backlash from the Sunrise Movement and some other activists on the climate climate issue, and I would point out some interesting things about him. One is in

the area of carbon capture. You might recall there there has not always been a lot of affection from Democrats because that's that's I guess, that's seen as like, you know, a way to allow the continued burning of fossil les instead of sort of phasing it out right, That's right,

that's how it seemed by particularly for critics. Those technologies haven't always been embraced by Democrats, but in more recent years, Democrats have signed on to increasing the tax incentives for carbon capture, and so looking at Represented Richmond's support for this, I think that provides another voice for carbon capture in this administration. And I would point out Joe Biden's platform makes at least a cursory mention of carbon capture as

a solution. So you mentioned the sunrise movement a little bit, and I want to get more into that, but first let's talk about the EPA itself. You know, again we're talking here on Tuesday afternoon of Tuesday, November twenty fourth. We don't know who the head of the EPA is going to be yet, but it does seem like Mary Nichols, the head of the Californi the Air Resources Board, has

the inside track. What are you hearing from sources about this are is everyone wouldever one be pleased with Mary nichols appointment or would there's be some people who think

that she's either too radical or not radical enough? Well, I would say between Mary Nichols that connection to California and the work that California has been out front in terms of, you know, establishing a cap and trade program, doing many of the things that have not been possible in Congress, it basically puts her on the vanguard I think for a lot of people in terms of her ability to move some climate action out of e p A and sort of restart what was a pretty active

EPA on this front during the Obama administration. Who are also still hearing the name of Washington Governor Jay Insley on the short list. But I also think there are some names that we just haven't seen some other names. The reason I'm reason and I'm hedging a little bit is, uh, the the John Kerrey pick and some other picks outside of the environmental area have have surprised some people. So I would not be surprised to see some other names,

you wouldn't be surprised to be surprised. Yeah, I think sometimes in this area, when we're talking about transition for a new administration and and and who's who's the hot name, We've been down this road before where it winds up

not being any of the names that we're hearing. But I think the important issue there is is if you're Joe Biden, you're going to want to have somebody that sends a signal to the climate environmental community that you're serious about EPA providing a significant role and occupying that space for climate change, because, as you know, we're we have real questions about who's going to control the Senate

and very close margins in the House. So there the the question now is what can Biden do on his own for the next couple of years on climate change if we're not almost certainly not going to have a massive climate change bill, or at least an ambitious one that might have been possible if Democrats had won you know, three, four or five six seats, as some people were predicting

before election day. So it sounds like I'm kind of reading between the lines of what you're saying here, But It sounds like what you're saying is that the you know, environmental activists and people sort of on the left in the environmental movement, particularly the Sunrise movement, you know, of climate activists, it sounds like they'll have a pretty big influence in who the Biden administration chooses to lead its environmental agencies. Is that is that your understanding? That's I

think they have some inputs. Certainly they're looking that it will be a signal to them. The only caveat I would throw out there is is if Democrats are in the minority, or even if they win the two in Georgia and thus barely control the Senate with fifty seats. Either way, you're going to have some difficulty in getting cabinet people through the Senate with that kind of margin.

So I would I would make the point that maybe some of the more ambitious picks for climate change that really would would make the Sunrise movement and other climate advocates really happy, those might not be on the table simply because Biden has to fill a cabinet. Oh well, there goes Bill mckibbon's chances of becoming EPA administrator just vanished. Let's sort of talk about policies now, not just people.

You've been doing some interesting reporting on the Clean Power Plan, which was listeners may recall the Obama administration's big attempt to kind of rewrite the rules for the power sector and make them more climate friendly. They didn't go well, which I'm sure we can get into, and of course, you know laid dormant during the Trump administration. But will they be resurrected under President Biden? Is that something that

you're hearing? Well, I think from the folks that I've been talking to, you're going to see a resurrection of the effort, or let's say the big thirty thousand foot plan, the idea that EPA should have a role in regulating power plan emissions and some other missions for that amount. For that matter, I think you're going to see them forcefully returned to that arena. There's no doubt of that, particularly since we don't have Democrats with big margin controlling

the Senate and possibly not controlling it at all. That puts a lot of onus, on EPA and on Biden to get some of these things done using existing executive branch authority. And if that sounds like deja vu, That's pretty much what Obama's plan was a couple of years into his administration when it appeared, you know, they were they were not going to be able to get the cap and Trade bill through, and the Obama administration decided to sort of take what people call it a go

with a loan approach. The problem now is the game plan on the field has already been executed during Obama to try to regulate power plants using a very broad reach for EPA not just to the power plant sites, but all the way out into the grid. The problem is it was stayed by the Supreme Court, and there are real questions with an even more conservative court that

exists today of being able to run that game plan again. Yeah, I mean, it's it's easy to forget, but we're talking about a really kind of novel theory of administrative law and about what the executive branch can and can't do without laws being passed by Congress. And you're right, I mean that, you know, it's very possible that if the Biden administration tries to do that again or something like that,

that the Supreme Court will step in. And you know, it is anyone's guesses to what will happen there, right, Yeah. And and because it was already a conservative court that stayed Obama's Clean Power Plan over three years ago, what you have now is is you have an even more conservative court now that's more like six ' three instead

of five to four. So there's there aren't a lot of questions about whether, you know, even if it was possible to just you know, wake from the dead Obama's Clean Power Plan and and and you know, put new garments on it and dress it up as something new, I don't know that that would really have us necessarily the court. There are options, and I'm sure they will

look at other options. The consensus seems to be that they may go back to using the same authority that they've already used, but maybe just somehow change the scope of what they're regulating and just come at it from a different angle. All right. And finally, you know, President

elect Biden was vice president under President Obama. Of course, and it may be too soon to say this, but do you think that from an environmental standpoint, the Biden administration is just going to be a kind of replay or retread of what happened in the Obama administration, or do you think Biden will bring some markedly different policies and perspectives to the environmental field than the President Obama did.

I think one thing that will be different is we're not going to be staring off from a position like Obama did coming into office in two thousand and nine with hopes of doing big climate legislation right off the bat. As you recall, that was like one of three top priorities for his administration. We're not going to have for President elect Joe Biden time or the political will, I

think to do that big of a bill. So in a sense, I think what we'll be doing with Biden is we'll be getting rid of some of these early years of effort that we saw under Obama, where you know, we test what can be done in Congress, try to negotiate,

try to get Republicans on board. And there is an argument even out there now that having more of a divided Congress can be a very good sort of garden for growing deals that don't seem to get done in Washington, even when you have control of things Captain Trade being a great exam sample that in two thousand and nine, where they had control of all arms of government, still couldn't get it done. Yeah, and so actually I was

thinking about that. It's hard to remember now, but Democrats really had enormous majorities in both chambers and they had the presidency. That's right. And instead of that, you're already saying, I mean, Biden hasn't even been sworn in yet, and we're already tempering the expectations for what he can get done. So there's this tension there. There's pressure for him to deliver, frankly, a lot more or get us on a path doing a lot more, and without having help from Congress. That's

it for today's episode of Parts per Billion. If you want more environmental news, check us out on Twitter. We use the handle at environment just that at environment, nothing else. I'm at David B. Schultz. If you have any family recipes you want to share, I'm always on the lookout. Today's episode of Parts per Billion was produced by myself and Josh Blocks. Assistance on this episode came from Anna Yugananov. Personal willing was created by Jessica Coombs and Rachel Daegel.

The music for today's episode is a Message by Jazar and Road to Memphis by Paul Pushara and Emmanuel Jambonet. They were used under a Creative Comments license. Thanks for listening and Happy Thanksgiving. Taxes and accounting are complicated, but finding a good tax podcast shouldn't be. I'm Siri Vlusu and I'm Amanda Icone. Listen to Talking Tax, the podcast that breaks down all of these issues on a weekly basis.

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