Episode 051: Oklahoma Bar Association President Miles Pringle

We've finally gotten the bar president to come back and talk to us again and , of course , that's the one and only Miles Pringle Miles . Welcome to the show .

I mean , I find it very helpful because I'm not able to read through every opinion and get some input from some high-quality attorneys on what those opinions mean . So I really appreciate it , thank you .

You're really taking on some big ones , miles .

That was a big game changer for a couple of years of just you know , just kind of trying to function on day to day , of having people not in the office and how do you run a bar association that way and then kind of trying to get back to what was a normal beforehand .

And now we're kind of looking forward and what is the bar that we want to need in the future , and so I'm hoping to kind of lay some groundwork for that . So bit off a lot , but luckily Jan is on the Board of Governors to help me so we're putting her to work too . But yeah , no , we've got a lot going on this year .

You currently work in the job that actually pays you as the Executive Vice President and General Counsel at the Bankers Bank , and we want to hear a little bit more about that in a moment , because I'm kind of curious about what the Bankers Bank is and what they do . This is the lawyer's law firm and you work at the Bankers Bank . That's right , yeah .

You know , again come from a family of attorneys and I'm the seventh attorney in my family and then my wife is not an attorney but her father's a judge and her sister's an attorney and so we kind of got them all around and so just being at the Bar Association lets me serve attorneys . But also I just like getting to know attorneys from around the state .

That's the best part is , you know we we meet , have meetings around the state state . That's the best part is you know we have meetings around the state and we have a lot of receptions and things like that .

And you know , having not gone to law school in Oklahoma , growing up here , but moving back and not having gone to law school , just making those connections is the best part . You know , the day-to-day functions of the OBA is important , you know , but the actual fun stuff is the relationships that you make .

I think we've got one chartered in Iowa now , but you know our focus is Oklahoma , texas and New Mexico and so we're state chartered FDIC insured , have all the regulations that you know any other bank that you would transact has .

But we're restricted regulatorily to our customers being other banks and so you know an example is a small bank in you know name , your town here in Oklahoma can't do like a $20 million loan .

So we take you know a piece of whatever's above their legal lending limit and so we can book that so they don't have to lose their best customers and we also kind of act as their back office .

We have a correspondent banking software we developed here in Oklahoma City that we use with our 250 direct customers but then also we license out to other correspondent banks .

So somewhere between a half to a third of the banks in the country actually use our software to do their ACH , wires , money orders , run a lot of the reports and you know you probably just don't think about it , but a bank actually needs a bank to get their payments done , to process their things . And you know a lot of these small community banks .

You know they don't have a lot of the expertise needed to keep up with a lot of the compliance obligations that they have , and so that's a lot of what we do is kind of be a back office and a bank for our banks .

You never know that we exist , we don't have an ATM , our lobby is not open to the public , but we really do a lot , and so it's really been fun . I've been here for five years now five years this month agreements , things like that .

But then also they've sent me to banking school and let me be an executive too , so help with the budget , help with strategic planning , things like that . So I've enjoyed being their lawyer and working with outside counsel and being an executive too . So it's been fun .

Their offices were at what's now the Alliance Tower at the 21st floor . I can't tell you how many hours I would watch on Northwest Expressway and try to pick a car that would get to the finish line the first and do all those races .

But yeah , my parents started their firm back in 1988 , and I worked there over Christmas breaks and holidays and stuff like that , and their main practice is representing community banks and they do consulting work as well as legal work for community banks .

My mom was a lawyer for the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency and then she was general counsel at the Oklahoma Bankers Association and worked in-house at First National , and so they do full service , anything from loan workouts to compliance issues , to you're having issues with your regulators , help you work through those issues or mergers and transactions .

It's just a niche area that not everybody knows all the ins and outs of . So I practiced with them for nine years . After I graduated law school , my best job offer was moving back to Oklahoma City to practice with them , and Oklahoma City was a new town by the time I moved back . I mean , I left and graduated high school in 2003 .

And we were in the beginning of the Renaissance and then got the Thunder and all these other things . There was like a new building every time I came back here and was a completely different town by the time I moved back and anyway . So I practiced with them for nine years and was a partner and wasn't really looking to move .

But then this job opportunity came up with the Bankers Bank and it was a couple blocks away from my house and I decided to throw my hat in the ring and I've really enjoyed it . But so that was my background beforehand , so I had a lot of banking experience too .

So we kind of have that co-op feel , but a for-profit model .

Can you just kind of maybe walk through the basics of how the OBA is set up , so it's governing structure and its authorities , those types of things , just for maybe some of our younger lawyers that may not be familiar with it ?

So the OBA was first formed by a merger between the Indian Bar and the Oklahoma Territory Bar in 1904 and operated in that existence in some variety or another until about the 1940s I believe , and at that time then the Supreme Court took the OBA under its jurisdiction , so it got closed out by statute , and then the Supreme Court issued an order creating , kind

of contemporaneously . That was a whole process that worked together , and so we're an arm of the Supreme Court . We're what's called a judicial agency , so we follow some of the rules that a government agency was .

Some of them don't apply to us because they don't apply to the judicial branch , but are a judicial agency and we're tasked with the administration of justice , regulating the practice of law . We have some other high if you read our rules .

Creating and controlling have some other things like trying to engage members and things like public education and creating county bars and working with county bars , and things like public education and creating county bars and working with county bars and things like that .

The main things that we do , though , on behalf of the court for regulating the practice of law is , you know , the maintaining CLEs . We've got our CLE department which puts on the educational materials and you can get it from the OBA or other places , and then we have our mandatory CLE department which actually keeps track of the hours .

So those are actually two different departments . People get those confused a lot . And then we have our general counsel's office which is pretty much like a small prosecutorial office . We've got Gina Hendricks as our general counsel and she has a couple of lawyers that work for her .

We have a couple investigators that work for her and you know carries a lot of the expense .

But you know , anytime there's a complaint against a lawyer her office investigates , maybe sending a letter or you know , if it necessitates her getting one of her investigators on the case , then they'll start doing that and making sure that people are following the rules of professional conduct and any other rules that apply to attorneys and moving that up the chain .

We've got other entities the Professional Responsibility Commission and the Professional Responsibility Tribunal which have roles in that process of making the rules and also , if there is a grievance that Gina's office thinks has merit moving it up the chain .

That way , ultimately the Supreme Court will decide on the attorney discipline , but the vetting process and the recommendations come through the Professional Responsibility Tribunal . So a lot of different things .

We also have an ethics council and I know I'm probably giving you more than you want to know right now , but there's a lot of different facets to what we have and to back up a little bit more too . So we are tasked with not only helping to regulate the practice of law and welcoming attorneys once they pass the bar exam .

We're what's called a mandatory bar and I know that you guys have probably talked about this on past episodes , but I think most states I think it's like 32-ish states have a mandatory bar where the state bar association is actually the entity tasked with the policing , the self-regulation , if you will , of the practice of law .

Other states have a slightly different model and it kind of depends and every state is just a little bit different . But they might have a voluntary state bar which does the meetings , the CLEs , the committees , all that function might be a voluntary bar and then the Supreme Court or another entity will do the regulation part . But we're a mandatory bar .

So if you want to practice law in Oklahoma you have to be a member of the Bar Association and most states do it that way , but not all , and so that's just kind of a nuance and one thing you learn about when you are bar president .

You get to go to all these meetings with the American Bar Association and the National Conference of Bar Presidents and the Southern Conference of Bar Presidents , so you really get a lot of learning on how other bar associations work and they're all a little bit different in what they do and their functions .

And you know , you've got a state like Texas which actually is set up pretty similar to ours but has 100,000 attorneys , so they've got a lot of different issues than we have . Or you've got Colorado , kansas , arkansas . Those are all voluntary bars , so like we're not even talking the same language sometimes when we're at these things .

So that's a lot about us and how we're set up and , if I missed , anything in there , jana , let me know .

So maybe just give a high-level overview of what does the Board of Governors do and who do they report to and who reports to them , and those types of things .

something like that , and that's allocated . And I don't think we've looked at how those allocations are in a while . We might have to revisit that at some point in time .

You know , kind of bite off what you can chew at any given year , but the House of Delegates chooses the leadership and when they're not in session which is just once a year at our annual meeting , then the Board of Governors takes over the governance of the Bar Association .

We've got I don't want to get the number two wrong here , but somewhere in the mid-30s staff-wise that are actually doing the day-to-day operations and whenever they need strategic directions just like any other board , would you know they submit reports financial , operational to the board of governors .

We can accept or point in different directions if we want to ask them to do something different .

And then we also have committees , you know too , that will take on specific functions , like we've got a bench and bar committee that you know is really focusing on you know how judges and lawyers interact and taking on issues like that but the board of governors they match the Supreme Court districts , so there's a governor from each district and then we have three

at-large governors that can be from anywhere in the state and then we have some officers which are the president , elect president and past president , so we've got 15 board of governors , I believe . And then the executive director is not a voting member but participates in everything too .

I think there is a lower amount that you pay in your first few years of practice , but most of us are paying the $275 a year , which has been the same dues for as long as any of us on this podcast have been a lawyer dues for as long as any of us on this podcast have been a lawyer .

I think I was admitted in 2003 , but I think I didn't pay dues that year . But 2004 is when they changed from $175 to $275 , and they have not been raised since .

So here we're going on 20 years with the same dues , and Miles wrote an article about this or a message about this in the most recent edition of the Bar Journal , the May edition , where you kind of laid out the history of the bar dues , the fact , as I just mentioned , that they haven't been raised in 20 years , and made the case for raising them .

The proposal I guess that's on the table now is to raise them to $400 . I think it was interesting in your message that I just referenced that you noted that the $275 amount established back in 2004 would be about $445 in today's dollars . So not even asking for an increase that keeps pace with inflation . So with that , what say you , mr President ?

I mean , I don't want to discount it , it's a 45%-ish dues raise , so it's not nothing , but it is time and it has been 20 years since we did our last dues raise and when we did it , in 2004 , it had been 15 years since the last dues raise and they raised it 57% .

So here we are , 20 years later , raising it 45% and again , yeah , an inflation-adjusted dollars would be . I think the 445 number I quoted in that article was for 2023 . And actually , since inflation has kept going up , it would be closer to 460 if you were going to just do inflation-adjusted numbers , which we're not doing .

But we've just kind of come to the time when we have to raise dues to pay for the operations . We're projected to lose a million dollars this year . The operations kind of functions at a break even and we've been benefiting that .

We have a nice strategic reserve that has been earning interest the last couple of years , but we have to put a new roof on our building , which is going to cost somewhere in the $500,000 range .

Our entryway is not ADA compliant and we have an aging population of attorneys , which I'll get into more in a little bit , but it is an eyesore but , more importantly , is not ADA compliant . People with physical disabilities have a lot of trouble getting into our building and so that has to be done , and that's about $500,000 .

We also have a lot of sewer issues because we have an aging building , and I don't even want to know what the bill is . I've seen we've had a lot of backers and diggers out there digging up pipes , and it just seems to be one problem after another . So we actually operate at a deficit .

We've been able to do that for a few years because we had a good dues raise in 2004 . We built up a nice strategic reserve We've been drawing down for a couple of years now . I also think we're kind of at peak lawyer levels as far as the amount of attorneys that we have , and that number is only going to go down , and there's a few reasons for that .

So we're just at a situation where I don't think it's financially prudent to keep drawing down that strategic reserve .

We've got to actually get into a net positive position , build up that strategic reserve a little bit more to get us into a spot where we can make better financial decisions , maybe invest more in our technology and the other ways that we do business . And you know , the price of everything's gone up .

I mean our employees , because they are great , deserve to get paid more . And I will say our employees can often make more at other places .

We offer some great benefits , but they like working at the bar , they like their benefits , so we don't have to pay them more than other places do , even though I think we need to be fair and competitive but we can't have a situation where it's just cost prohibitive for them to work at the bar association .

So we need to be real mindful and that our professional staff which actually gets everything done . We need to make sure that we're compensating them appropriately and again , we need to make some investments in technology and other issues . So fundamentally , that's kind of where we're at .

Where we need to do is raise Again you gave a lot of the history there and again $100 , we did 20 years ago . We're asking for $125 this time around , I think , because I've gotten some pushback from people saying $400 is a lot . Can we break that up over time ?

Maybe we don't do that all in one year and the answer is no , we can't , because we actually looked at some scenarios where we didn't raise dues this high and the problem is we wouldn't even break even in the first couple of years . We have to raise it to at least $125 just so we can get a little bit of a surplus in the first three years .

And then we'll be breaking even in year four and five , according to our projections , and probably need another dues raise after that , and maybe the board in the future will say okay , we don't want to wait another 15 or 20 years . Maybe we'll do a smaller increase at that time as opposed to doing $100 and $125 chunks .

And so I think that while I understand the people wanting to do a smaller amount and thinking that seems more reasonable , but when you step back and actually look at the financial position of the OBA , it just doesn't work to do a smaller amount . So that's just nothing . And then another thing that I've heard is well , kansas is lower or Texas is 275 .

And you know , again , as I talked about earlier , these aren't necessarily apple-to-apple comparisons . Kansas is a voluntary bar , so they don't have to run a prosecutorial office , they don't have to run an MCLE office , they don't have to pay for a lot of the technology that we have to pay for here at the Oakland Bar Association .

They also don't get a lot of the same benefits that we get , because if you're a voluntary bar , you have fewer attorneys so you're not able to negotiate as many member benefits .

So I think that you get more out of a mandatory bar anyway and you're not paying dues to two different places , because whether or not you're paying it to a bar association or to a different entity , you're still having to pay fees for the regulatory part of being an attorney .

Yes , they benefit by having you know attorneys , but we're the ones that are benefiting more from that , and you also probably don't want the strings that are attached once you start asking the legislature for things too . And then the other way is to do it through fees , court fees .

Again , I don't think that's fair , because court fees are often borne by the people who can pay them the least , and so I just think that's an appropriate way to fund our regulation of law . And you know , we're attorneys and it's a benefit and we've been benefiting from that , and so , again , I think it's totally appropriate for us to pay for that privilege .

So what's the bar association doing in the expense category ? Man ?

John Williams will tell you the previous executive director of the Bar Association that there were fewer employees at the OBA when he left than when he came in 2004 , despite the fact that our membership grew by 5,000 attorneys .

So he was able to do more with less and find efficiencies in a lot of different places and I think the reason why we were able to go 20 years is because we were so efficient and we're kind of to the bone . You know there's no more meat to cut . You don't need to make sure we're doing that .

But I do think that there are things that we can do by being , you know , strategic in our partnerships . You know whether it's better advertisements for our bar journal or at annual meetings and things like that . Those won't move the needle so much on the do side and you know our CLE department does a good job .

Maybe we can find ways for them to be more profitable even than they are . But again , that means we have to charge our attorneys more for the CLEs and I don't think they'd like that either . So that's a balancing act too , of where do you raise fees as opposed to just dues and where do our members get the best benefit out of that .

So it's a balancing act , but I think we've done the best we can of running a very well business-oriented mindset . That's why we're , 20 years later , coming to this dues increase .

So if you're unfamiliar , dear listener , with kind of how that works in Oklahoma , how we got to the system that we have , then I suggest you go take a listen to that and you can get all the background and the details . But it seems to be almost a perennial thing now that the JNC structure , it comes under political scrutiny , and this year was no exception .

So maybe you could just kind of tell us what went on across the road or up the road a little farther north from the Bar Association at the state capitol this year with respect to JNC and where that stands to state capitol this year with respect to J&C and where that stands .

I think part of it was probably the abortion-related decision that came out last summer , and so there was some more special interest groups that felt like it was a hotter issue , that were pouring more money into it on their side and trying to whip up votes that way .

And I do think that term limits , whether they're good or bad , does create a situation where you have to continually educate the legislators who are mostly not lawyers and not , you know , as familiar with our judicial selection process on why we have it this way , how it works , why we think it's better than other systems .

So there's just that continual turn of educating that way . So this year there was a bill in the Senate to put on the ballot for Oklahomans to move from the JNC process to a federal model where the governor would appoint and the Senate would confirm . And you know , I first want to say this too . I want to be clear .

I had a lot of really great conversations with legislators talking about this and , by and large , and I don't think I personally had a conversation where the legislator wasn't coming from a really good spot . I don't think there was any sort of you know bad intentions or anything on that .

I do think , you know , giving some perspective and history and explaining why we do things was really helpful in this process . And you know saying yeah , I hear what you're saying that not everything's perfect . There is no perfect system , you know , because this is something that people are involved with , and let me tell you why I think this one's better .

But the Senate wanted to move to a federal model . The Board of Governors voted because we have the ability , once legislation is proposed , to recommend it being passed or to vote against . You know , recommend it not be passed .

And we voted unanimously that it not be passed , and that allowed our legislative liaison to kind of do his education thing over at the Capitol and really proud of the job that he did and making sure that everybody knew what was going on .

A lot of this is just about communication too and people knowing you know who's got questions and so you can help answer those questions . It passed . The Senate then went to the House and went through the Rules Committee and went to a floor vote .

It was , you know , I think , a pretty hot topic up there , but I'm glad to say that you know , I think it died like 66 votes out of 101 , and there was quite a few abstentions in there . So I think our numbers , if you would have pressed those even more , would have been even better on that .

So I think we did a really good job of making sure that people understood the issues and understood why we do things the way we do in Oklahoma . So I'm really proud with the way that turned out . And you know the federal model is fine for the federal system . You know it's kind of hard to think of a way to do it differently .

I wouldn't say that I've watched those last few Supreme Court selection processes and thought that it was the most efficient or , you know , model . Some of them have kind of digressed into conversations and accusations that maybe aren't the most productive .

But also , you know I just like that the Oklahoma way of doing things focuses on professionalism and unbiased qualifications and that we're not focusing on who's got the best political connection , who knows the executive officer the best or has the most political sway . Send in your applications . We'll do an interview process , we'll do a background check .

Who's got the most qualifications , and that's what we kept on telling people is . This is the way that we do things here and that's why we think it's turned out so well , where we've had really high quality people come through . Not that everybody's been perfect and not that you're going to agree .

You know you're never going to agree with the way that judges rule all the time , especially if you're a lawyer , because you've got a 50-50 shot if you will . But you want to make sure that they're well-reasoned and coming from an ethical place , and I think we've done a really good job of that .

I think maybe I also read that one of the amendments being kicked around was setting an age limit , justices in particular . I think that was just at the Oklahoma Supreme Court level , but I don't know if that idea got any traction at the legislature or not .

And if you put in an age restriction arbitrarily , then you disincentivize attorneys who maybe have had great careers and would make great judges but are , you know , in their late 50s or early 60s and say , well , I can never vest , you know , in this system , why would I go take the bench ?

So I think you're disincentivizing a lot of really qualified attorneys from ever wanting to take a bench . So you know , it's conversations like that and saying you know there's some unintended consequences here if you do something like this .

sure that you know they know if they have questions about something that they can call you or getting on their radar to , so that they know that sometimes there are unintended consequences of these bills dealing with the J&C , or you know how judges are selected , or things like that .

And I think the retirement issue is exactly one of those things that would certainly be an unintended consequence of this , and it's not .

You know it was targeted toward justices , at least in its latest form , but it's been across the board before that , and so you know we got to have good district court judges too , got to have good district court judges too , got to have good associate district judges and special judges , and that sometimes means , like you said , that they've had a career as a

lawyer first , and so if you can never vest in the judicial retirement system , you know a lot of people are going to be turned away from that . A lot of your you know good lawyers who would be great judges .

So this is just our PSA to have those and develop those relationships with the legislators in your district so that when issues like this come up you know they're comfortable having a conversation with you about those things .

And administration of justice I mean it would be kind of odd to say that you know the association where all the lawyers are , you know that has the most knowledge on judicial issues can't do educating to the legislature . I mean I think it would be a detriment to the legislature and to our system of government if we couldn't talk to legislators on those issues .

But we're really mindful . On my six years this is my sixth year on the board . This year is the first year I think we've taken positions on anything . So we are not out there taking positions on anything other than administration of law and we are pretty narrowly focused on what that even means .

I mean , I think you could get pretty broad interpretation of what is the administration of justice , but we are very targeted in what that means and , janet , you can say what you think on that too . But I think it's important that we do weigh in . I think it's a disservice to Oklahomans in the legislature for them not to know .

You know what at least the Board of Governors thinks on these issues , because that's how we create better legislation that has better outcomes . I mean it makes no sense to me to sit on the sideline and have very negative outcomes take place and just be like , well , I wish they hadn't done that .

It's like , well , you probably should have talked to them while they were making those decisions . And so you know , we're not buying dinners or anything like that . We're not , you know out there . You know we don't even host , like golf tournaments , we don't raise money , we don't do anything like that . It's really an educational and conversational .

I think it's been at least in my experience it's been a pretty narrow focus , and even that , even a discussion about how judges are selected brings a spirited debate among attorneys , and so I think that the board , you know , does a good job of trying to talk about those issues before it votes , to say , you know , we are opposed to this particular bill .

Just because there's two attorneys in a room doesn't mean they necessarily agree that the JNC is the best system . And so I think , as a body , you know , it's important for us to have those lively discussions internally , and then , you know , take a vote and see where we land , and then , you know , we go from there .

And then the judicial conference kind of went and did their own thing and started meeting in the summer . And then the bar has always had its solo and small firm conference , which has always been a very well-attended event . And now we're kind of bringing all those things back together again , I guess .

And you know , I think both conferences have suffered from not meeting together at the same time , because we're all in this together , the judges and the lawyers , we're all in this together making sure that the work of justice gets done . And so it's been , I think , negative for our conference to have state courts in session , if you will .

I mean working while we're trying to have our annual meeting , and so , I think , trying to align it where at least we know , I mean , they might have federal court , but at least they're not going to have state court at that time .

So making sure that everybody's off at the same time , and then it's a real big benefit , I think , to say hey , please drive to . I mean , for the metro area attorneys it's a little bit easier , although I will say their attendance has not been great the last few years . So I'd like to see that up , but I think it's hard to say hey .

I think it's hard to say hey , I know you have a hearing on Friday , but we'd really like for you to be there all day Thursday in Oklahoma City , you know so , to have that scheduling conflict gone and then say and by the way , your judge might be there you can . You can , you know , talk to them outside of all these issues .

You know , obviously there are no ex parte communications but you know . But just get to know each other . Break bread , you know , and and break bread with attorneys that you maybe haven't gotten along with .

I mean , we talked about last year at our Board of Governors meeting , at the annual meeting , how many relationships you formed , you know , at events like this , where maybe you thought someone was a jerk , but then you , you know , broke bread with them , spent all the time like , oh , they're not that bad , maybe you got a little .

You could represent your clients better because you and those other attorneys had a better communication . So I'm really looking forward to that . And we're doing a more relaxed . The theme is summer school because we're going to be in Norman and it's in the summer , so I'm super excited for that .

It's going to be a little bit more relaxed , not a suit and tie mandatory for everything . We have traditionally had a president's reception . We are changing it , not just the branding . So the branding is a little different , where it's a welcome reception hosted by the president , because I think everybody kind of thinks president's reception , oh am I invited ?

Is it ? You know , coat and tie ? It's like no , this is for everybody , everybody at the conference . We've even invited the judges , so the judicial conference should be there as well , and we're making it a law prom theme to go with our summer school stuff and we got my so-called 90s band to play that . So I think that's going to be a lot of fun .

Oamic's hosting an event the first night , so there'll be a lot of fun things to do every night there . Oamic's event Wednesday night . Our welcome reception Thursday night with the judges . We'll have some CLE with judges and some without , because they are two separate conferences .

We want to be respectful that not everything is going to be together , but we're trying to do as many events together as we can and I think the embassy suites is going to be a really good location to do that and we're going to try to work in some family fun things too .

But again , I think , a more relaxed atmosphere , less scheduling conflicts in the summer . We're just trying to change things up . You know we are required in our bylaws to have an annual meeting . So it's going to happen .

And I had a lawyer say this to me because I was just kind of spitballing you know things , what's important , what's not important and he said you know , if you have to have this annual meeting , you should , one , not lose a lot of money at it and two , it should be important . I said you know what ? I agree .

So what can we do to change things up to make sure that people think that it's a valuable thing , that they want to be at and really kind of pour our resources in that ? So we're trying new things out this year . It's going to be a bit of an experiment , so bear with us if things are a little bit different .

We are all working through this together , but I'm really excited . I think it's going to be fun .

I think we might have a couple-year period here where we're kind of floating around , and so we'll establish a new normal going forward . But I was very cognizant not to disband the Solo Small Law Committee . That will have a place . They have a lot of great stuff that they do .

It just kind of didn't work out this year and we're trying to incorporate the Solo Small Law into the annual meeting this year . So they're in charge actually of a lot of the programming and making sure that we have fun events too . So we're trying to make sure that they're involved this year and that it has that .

You know that it's a blend between an annual meeting and the Solo Small Law Conference and I would expect going forward we will have one again . It's just this year . I didn't want to overburden the staff with that as well .

I mean , I hear you saying we might bring the solo and small firm conference back and maybe that makes sense as a smaller thing at some other point in the year . But solo and small firms need to be in the same room with our judges and with lawyers who work for the government or for big firms or who are , you know , corporate counsel or things like that .

I think that it's important that we're all there together because that's how we , like you said , get to know each other on a personal level .

And even if we don't practice against each other , that doesn't mean that I can't call so-and-so who lives out , you know , in whatever county , because we met at the annual conference and they can , I can send a referral or whatever .

So I mean those judges need to be interacting with the solo and small firm lawyers just like they do you know anybody else who might be going to the annual conference . So I think Miles already knows how I feel about this .

I'm a super fan of bringing these two conferences back together because I think it is so important for our profession and to bring the level of professionalism up for lawyers and judges to be in the same rooms together , to break bread together , to have conversations that don't have anything to do with any of the cases that are in front of them , but about

themselves personally , and maybe get to know each other on a level where it doesn't feel so contentious all of the time . So kudos to Miles .

You know we're going home to our bubbles , which is great . You know that we need . You know we have a separate life too , that we're not only attorneys . But I think it would raise everybody's game up the profession up , for everybody to get along better .

And I don't think younger attorneys and I say this I mean I'm turning 40 this year , so I don't consider myself to be an older attorney , but I guess I'm getting there but I see fewer and fewer younger attorneys at these things and you just kind of hear that they're not valuing networking and things so much .

I can't tell you how many opportunities and valuable relationships , both professionally and personally , I've made from going to these events .

And again , I said this earlier , the thing that I like most about bar leadership is going and making these connections around the state and then seeing them in the future and following up and said , oh , I had a great time with you out in Idabel . You know how's your family , how's the judge .

You know , oh , did you hear this funny thing that happened while we were out there ? And that is so valuable , and you never know when those connections are meaningful to you in a professional way , but it also , you know , makes us happy . I mean , we're all practicing law together . You might as well enjoy it .

So let's try to make it a little bit more fun . You know a lot of our stuff is really hard . You know people come to us with their hardest problems to solve and that's a lot of weight on your shoulders . So we're all carrying these different weights together . Let's at least get along and have some fun while we're doing it .

I think it's super important and I think that you know we're changing things up this year , you know , and seeing how it goes , you know , if the experiment fails , then maybe Association , our plan is 20 years old , so not only are we raising dues , changing annual meeting , fighting off J&C bills , doing all that stuff , we're also putting in a new strategic plan

this year . I'm really excited about that . I think it's really important for an organization like ours to be forward-looking . So we're going to be going to Ardmore for a few days in August to kind of formulate that Our old one was fine and it had a lot of great priorities , but it didn't have three and five-year goals .

And I'd like for our new strategic plan to have not only our aspirational statements and North Star , if you will , but also kind of say okay , where do we want to be in three to five years ? What are the things that we need to do ? So I'm really excited about that too . But anyway , thanks .

I want to thank you guys for having me on and , more importantly , thank you guys for the work that you're doing .

It's so important to put this out there and to let people know what's going on , who may not have time to read all the cases , and also our non-lawyers , who maybe don't understand the practice of law or are just in it , and so I think this is a really great service that you guys are doing and I appreciate you doing it and I want to encourage you guys to

keep it up oh , I appreciate that , thank you it is , it's , I mean it's .

There are automated forms to help lawyers in many practice areas , from estate planning to real estate , so check it out . At OklahomaFormscom .

You can find all of our past episodes , whether that be episodes discussing recent Oklahoma Supreme Court opinions or interviews of a number of fascinating guests , ranging from the Oklahoma Solicitor General to a referee from the Oklahoma Supreme Court , to many judges from the trial and appellate bench . Find it all on our website , oklahomaappealscom .

Until next time , bye-bye .