Music. What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Off The Mat's Podcast. Sorry, I had to think for a second because I just recorded So You Like Horror and it's still in my head.
So we're here on Off The Mat's Podcast and today's guest, as we are slowly, quickly getting to 200 for this episode 197 perhaps, is actually uh someone i know personally i know most of guests personally but a lot of my guests come from instagram just kind of like you know the remote friendship so this is actually a teammate the coach a friend and you know we we exchange horror movie trailers on facebook and it it occurs to me hey wait a minute let me let me get this guy
on here i mean he's full of wisdom and and info so my guest for this episode is none other than mr coach neil duke hello coach neil how are you and thank you for doing this pleasure to be on on the show i never would have imagined that this would be an opportunity never crossed my mind before but happy to be here happy to have the chat oh i'm i'm glad you know it's been something that's been on my mind for a while It's just kind of like, I think as like, I'm just rolling with the day.
I'm like, oh, I got to reach out to coach Neil. And then I'll make a note. And, you know, I just kind of move on with my day, drink some water, you know, watch a movie. And then like, then it comes back. It's like, oh, it's 1 a.m. I'm not going to shoot a message now. And, you know, so it's, this has been kind of a procrastination for a while.
So i'm glad we finally got to do this you know one of the things that always occur to me when when i'm thinking about like hey i want to have you on is like really just you know talking jiu-jitsu first and foremost because as much as i've learned from you you know i always feel like man this guy has like all this like jiu-jitsu wizard stuff going on and and knowledge like i gotta know like Like, where, like, how, why, like, what started you in this?
So if you don't mind, like, like, how did you come about jujitsu and, you know, just this journey? Well, I guess my first disclaimer is I am, I think I'm a certified OG in jujitsu at this point because I've been around for, for a good amount of time. But the first time jujitsu ever came to my attention was.
Probably in the early 2000s at one point i used to be assigned on andrews air force base i was an air force officer at one point and i would drive around camp springs and i would see these little handmade post posted signs on tree lines and power stations or whatever the case was and it would say learn jujitsu train gracie jujitsu and i just thought to myself well it That sounds intriguing because I come from like a martial arts sort of background.
I did have keto. I did go to when I was assigned overseas, all the usual karate, breaking board stuff and forms exercises, which I found at the time I was engaged in it. I guess it was OK. I thought I was doing something. thing. I remember when I was a kid trying to convince my father to enroll me in karate because I wanted to defend myself in school, for one, because I wasn't the biggest kid.
But I became disillusioned, I guess, with karate as a martial arts right around the same time I was learning about the possibility of jiu-jitsu because no disrespect to the karate and taekwondo practitioners but you don't learn a lot really how to defend yourself when you're doing forms and breaking boards so i see these signs gracie jujitsu and it's to lloyd irving's place and back then he was kind of new to the industry
but he had a school up in upper marlborough's maryland and i thought to myself and this was around the same time the ufc was just kicking off too right So you're seeing this little guy named Hoist Grazy. Standing up to the Kimo Leopolds and the Dan Severns and the Ken Shamrocks and just whipping some tail in his pajamas at that. I'm thinking, this little Brazilian guy, I mean, I'm probably his size and God knows I could probably use a little bit of his self-defense skills.
I'm thinking, I should try out this school. Longer story made short, I found where where Lloyd was operating his school in Upper Marlborough. And back then, it's nothing like it is now. I mean, now it's internationally known. Some of the best grapplers in the world cycle through his school. But back then, we were on carpet and in a very small space in Upper Marlborough. And I remember going to his class. And back then, jiu-jitsu had no chill.
Your first class there, you were sparring. and uh and i remember finishing up getting my tail whooped and i don't know how my tail was whooped and lloyd approached me after class and say hey you have fun you want to be back and i'm thinking my literally my muscles were quaking at that point and i'm thinking that was the worst experience i ever had but i have to come back so i'm like yeah so that's where my jujitsu journey started by just coming back that for that second class
and like i said it's been i guess maybe 20 years i hate to say that because all my young friends will say good grief you're you're ancient oh i don't think of it as ancient as much as it's you know seasoned yeah that's why i'm well seasoned i'm the rotisserie chicken that's been in been in that oven for a while. In fairness, my jujitsu journey has had its peaks and valleys based on injuries, based on family needs.
There've been times I've stepped away from it for months, sometimes a few years, but jujitsu is that your high school crush that you can't get over. And I always wind up returning to jujitsu one way, shape, or form. And I've been back now at it, at least for the last year and a half or so, I want to say, COVID kind of put a strain on everything.
COVID was a brilliant justification to avoid humankind. So I remember I kind of put it on the back burner for a bit until I finally said, I looked at the scale and the scale told me, Neil, you need to get your butt in the gym again. That's where I've been. Love this. Good. Good. COVID, I think was kind of a, I know for me, it was a wake up call. I think I just got in my blue belt and it was at a point where I was going as much as possible.
And one day my wife says to me, Hey, so your daughter hasn't seen you in a while.
And you probably need to like have more than one day off per week and i was like oh, i guess because like i was off on saturday because i worked and i come home from work and like you know my daughter's being put to bed and i go to the basement and then you know watch movies or, you know pose action figures whatever i do down here but like covet was you know in one way kind of a wake-up call I know for me but then at the same time I think it
it kind of put us all as grapplers for the most part kind of in a weird spot where we're like we do a martial art where we're up close and personal with with folks and you can't do that yeah it was it was a real dilemma. But like I said, I think I'm probably weighing in at around 186, 187 right now as I'm sitting here. But during the COVID days when there was nothing for me to do other than watch movies and snack, I was probably a good 20 pounds heavier.
And I became visible when I would look down with my toes and I'm like, hmm, that round mound there on my belly, I don't remember that from when i was youthful yeah it's definitely like riding a bike once you return you things come back quickly all the muscle memory and right now it's where i'm trying to perfect all the old muscle memories that i had all the information that's been taught to me over the years trying to,
have that seamless kind of jiu-jitsu at least that's the goal oh i mean i have enrolled with you and and god knows how long but i'm sure that there's still there's this fearful respect, like i think the last time i wrote wrote with you i think i was like coming into my own i was like okay i got this dude i got him and i i feel like for me i was just like overzealous and trying to pressure passion you just use my
weight against me it was like come on dude like like what are What are you doing here? And it just got swept him out and felt like, okay, I still got some learning to do, but we all do. You're always a fun role, though, because we always roll with each other with respect. It was never one of those spazzy situations where we're pretending we're chasing a medal or something like that. We have to go to work the next day.
That's always my approach to every role with everyone is, look, we've got day jobs, so let's just be cool.
And every so often you know like you know with huggy he and i would always have like those end of the the world roles where we're just colliding and scrambling and and you know by the end of it you know we're both smiling and laughing but during a role it's like he he he would refuse to tap to anything and i'm like dude like we're gonna get hurt like we like someone's got a tap he's like well it won't be me but you know
that that's like the rare case where i'm like okay like we're going to the death most people yeah it's like you know you have to be respectful you have to you know take care of your training partners it's like like i always say you break your toys you don't have anything to play with you know the next day yeah that's so right i mean, you could only do so many con versus king con you have godzilla versus king kong matches is before your body starts to feel the effect of that.
But the challenge for me now is as a brown belt. Letting other people work and then also kind of figuring out you know all the muscle memories all the techniques and using appropriate techniques and you know they tell you there's a white and blue belt don't use strength don't use strength use technique and that's kind of hard to do because everyone has a little bit of ego in the game and when someone starts pressing you then you're like okay i'll escalate as well
and i think i'm coming to the point now where i I can relax more and just appreciate the rounds more. And I'm finding it's really doing great for my cardio because when I first started, I was like 100 miles an hour. I wasn't going to beat you with technique or skill. I was going to beat you because I was just going to swarm all over you and go 100 miles an hour, which is great for 30 seconds or maybe a minute.
And now I'm learning that by just breathing and relaxing and just thinking things through, the rounds go by a lot quicker, not really tired or exhausted after rounds necessarily. And I just attribute that to having a different mindset when rolling. Plus, as a brown belt for the junior belts, you're somewhat of a target. And part of that is ego.
Go you know do i let this white belt get into a good position because they're going to think that you know i'm a tomato can like our old instructor used to say or do i just let them work in because i have no ego in the game i guess sometimes it depends on who you're rolling with too, there there's some there's some there's some dudes that need to just know that you're capable of of inflicting grievous bodily harm and then they're the nice
dudes who are like okay i'm just I'm just going to let this person work. Maybe I'll put them in a couple of difficult positions and help them through how they get out. Jiu-Jitsu is the ultimate equalizer because it doesn't matter what your background is, what kind of shape you're in. Everyone's equal once you get on the mat and everyone's capable of prevailing in a match.
The ego part is huge because I think about there's a couple roles I know that I have, even in the current day, where it's like, look, we're going to work together. Mother, but every so often I have to remind them I can, I can do bad things and then they'll don't get it twisted. They can do bad things to me too, but it's really a race. Then it was like, who's going to do the bad first, but you know, we're still respectful. Everyone's respectful.
And you know, at the end of the day, we just, you know, we talk about it afterward, like, Hey man, you know, you had me there. You're like, Oh yeah. I mean, I was concerned. I didn't think I had you there but no no you had me but then i also if you had me there i also had this here yeah okay so, it's all it's chess yeah it's weird for me to describe this and i've tried it with other folk.
But I think what keeps me in jujitsu at this stage is I'm still waiting for that moment of grand enlightenment where it's like the matrix of Neo when all the numbers, the binary system just come crashing down. I can stop bullets and manipulate time and space and everything, and jujitsu just becomes so understandable and relatable in a cosmic sense. sense. I'll give you an example where I first started thinking in this way.
Back at our old school over in Suburna Park, our old instructor invited this fellow black belt of his to do an instruction. And he was great. He was doing leg locks and all these different sort of things. But the moral of the story is after once he stopped teaching his techniques and everything, everything, he rolled with everyone in the class.
And he started flat on his back, folded his hands over his chest like Dracula, and just had his hands near his neck, maybe just to protect from obvious chokes and everything. And he said, okay, let's go. And I'm thinking back then I might've been blue or purple. I'm thinking this dude is going to allow me to just maul him and he's just laying on his back.
So okay clock starts and i i go at it and mounting and side controlling and doing everything in my in my powers and like try to submit the dude and it was he was like basically the steven seagal of jiu-jitsu he would just like flick me off and then start back over again flat on his back, and i said to myself ain't this the darndest thing ever there's another side of jiu-jitsu i just didn't realize and that's how effortless it could be and how yeah just how effortless it could be.
If you have a mindset that you're going to defend.
And you're going to use proper technique and i'm like that's that's what where i want to be, ultimately in jiu jitsu where i could just lay down allow people to work and nothing's going to phase me because i'm not going to be submitted but you know again ego and adrenaline and, a touch of testosterone get caught up in the mix and where you think you're going to have jujitsu nirvana you want you end up rolling with with someone who's you know in a life or death situation especially when
they start going for the feet that's yeah the feet are off limits for me because as soon as i feel anyone touch touch my feet i'm like okay now i have to turn it on because i i almost feel like then that's my ego there's like i'm not i don't want to get footlocked in any way, shape, or form or wrist locked. That's the devil's work right there. I will share with you that it was back in August of last year, I had a partial rupture of my Achilles tendon.
So I was down for a while and they tried to convince me to get surgery initially when I went for my consult and I'm like, slow your roll, let's get an MRI and see what's actually going on with the Achilles. And as it turned out, it was a partial as opposed to a full rupture. One of the legitimate options was just being patient, put in the boot, use cane crutches, whatever, and wait this out and eventually go to PT. I was blessed that I was able to rebound fairly quickly.
I guess August was tough. September was rough. October became tolerable. In November, I started having real progress. So I returned to the mat sometime in November and haven't had any ill effects yet, knock on wood. But if anyone goes for the foot, at that point, it's on. There, there was a open mat we had, I want to say three weeks ago, maybe. And we were just, I mean, for the open mat that we do, it's just drilling.
No, no sparring of any sort, just simple drill in which it's very welcomed for me. Cause I feel like that's something I don't encounter enough in my, in my own routines. So when I'm put in a situation where it's like, all we're doing is drilling, there's no other option. But one one of the guys there was drilling wrist locks and i'm just thinking it's like.
Why this like i didn't feel like something you should even be drilling because you have to have a willing participant to just say here go ahead and wrist lock me and you know i'm just sitting there thinking it's like you are you angry at us like who hurt you what like they you know you see guys they they work on leg locks and things and it's you know kind of catch and release but i'm just thinking like wrist locks like
what prison rules come on dude we're drilling like yeah those are prison rules wrist locks and certain foot locks are the last bastion of the coward and, occasionally i've become cowardly but it look i i try not to judge but when people go for wrist locks against me i'm thinking this person is emotionally vulnerable and hurt and they're trying to take it out on me for some reason yeah and i won't tolerate it.
When whenever i so i have a weird relationship with wrist locks because our our code instructor, He and I would roll every so often. And I was very, very, I felt like I was really good at defending the wrist lock. You know, I would tense up my wrist while especially rolling with him. And I mentioned this just in conversation. It's like, you know, but you know, that's the one thing I just can't tolerate.
And then I think I got comfortable with him one day. We're rolling and my hand is just dangling there. He wrist locks me. And then from that point on the rest of the week, just sent me messages with, you know, hands, like with the wrist circled x-rays with like broken wrists, like, like completely snapped. And it was like, so how are you feeling? And, you know, it's kind of like at a warehouse zero days since last incidents. So I had to start to take it back over.
And and when i returned to training kind of more frequently in the last year, you know one of our purple belts just did the most friendly wrist lock like it's weird to say a friendly wrist lock but he wrist locked me and he was so polite about it and just like i felt like i was mad i didn't talk to him for two weeks every time i saw him like you want to roll and i was like no i'm good i'm it just left the class was over but you know i had to start like kind of really thinking
about it i was like why like why are you angry about this you know they're using the technique but i just have really sensitive wrists is what it is and it i'm scared, you're probably like me and 90 something percent of all jiu-jitsu practitioners practitioners, after you leave a class, and if you tap to something that's either BS, or you tap to it because you were tired, or you tap to it because you used bad technique, the drive home is intolerable.
And it sticks with you until the next time you're in class, and you're thinking to.
Why did i tap there are only 10 seconds left in the round or why did i tap, and now he's this person's going to think that you know i'm a lesser version of myself, but yeah that's that's the worst feeling regret from from tapping to something that probably shouldn't have but again i know the the seniors in the game say if you're not tapping you're not learning and yeah i think there's truth to that if you're not challenging yourself,
And if you're not being put in bad positions, it means you're probably not in the right school or you're not with the right training partners because you definitely need to have that grind in order to advance yourself, I think, as much as I hate it in the moment. Yeah, I think with the wrist lock for me, that's the big tap for me is the wrist lock. Actually, I'm not going to put any names out there, but I know they're going to listen to this. And they know who they are.
I was put in a triangle and I was about to tap and a wrist locked me. The hand that I was going to tap where is what they wrist locked. It's like, you didn't give me the opportunity to tap. He's like, it's that that's, I don't know. I'm emotional, but whatever. And you know, it was a friend. That's what made it worse. It's a friend. So there used to be a black belt. in our school who was notorious for going for heel hooks. Now, he wouldn't crank them, but he would jump into the heel hook,
put you into, at least maybe it was just me, maybe he had it in for me. He'd put me in a heel hook, i'm not going to try to escape from a heel hook and roll out of it because like you said i gotta go work work the next day but he would put me in the heel hook then he would look at me and smile, it was like one of those catch and releases and i thought to myself you son of a i'm like a i think at that time i'm like white
or blue belted best and you're heel hooking me but it did lead to my refinement in the dark arts that was my motivation it's like this is what led you to the dark side Yeah, I was house Slytherin after that. Forget those nice guys in Gryffindor or whatever it is. Well, it's like they say, if you can't beat them, join them. So it makes sense. Much respect to leg lockers. I'm trying to refine my game every time, but it is the great equalizer, especially with guys who play open guard.
I find what you grab hold of their feet and ankles. It it changes their mindset as to how open their guard how much of an open guard they want to play, yeah that's that's a good reminder there because i not that i play open guard very well but there are times i'm just sitting there now i'm thinking you know what let me just not commit to that anymore just it could get ugly yeah you know know your training partners true i feel like i'm at a point now, when it comes to training partners,
I will roll with anyone just because, you know, that's what we're there for. And that's how you learn is you get that experience with many different, you know, you know, grapplers, but from time to time, I have to, you know, say, do I have any injuries going on? How tired am I? Cause lately the cardio it's better now, but you know, in the recent weeks, it's like, uh, you know, I'll get done with a role. I'm like, dude, I shouldn't be this tired.
And someone's like, don't say you're for a role. And I'm like, I don't know if I should like, and I'll say, yeah, come on.
It doesn't go well, but like, it is important though that like you said no you're training partners you know and it's okay to say no to a role every so often like i'm learning that now i just you know i'm gonna sit this one out, yeah i guess for the folks who are listening to not all schools are equal you just have to find the right school that fits your your your needs in jujitsu i started off with team lloyd irving I'm still with Team Lloyd Irving slash Crazy 88.
But I visited other schools, and I've even enrolled in other schools from time to time just to diversify my skill set. And there was one place where I was a newbie and doing some stand-up work. Well, actually, we started standing up. And I wasn't good at a lot of things, but I was good at not being taken down. And this particular blue belt was frustrated by that particular skill set that I had. So he kind of jumped.
It wasn't even like butt scooting. It was like jumping guard and then throwing his hips into my knees, which buckled one of my knees and like hyperextended it. It took me out for like six months. And I'm like, after that, I'm like, okay, if this dude's still around, this isn't a place that is going to be a safe environment for me. And I think I learned a little bit of jujitsu pack compassion after that. And that probably started for the first time slowing down.
I think there's a thing that comes with that, though, too, because like you said, not all schools are, you know, created equal. You know, you go to some gyms and, you know, it's super, you know, super casual, super laid back. You're definitely learning jujitsu, but, you know, kind of in a more relaxed set. And then you have your competition settings. And then you have still to this day some gyms that are just the Wild West. And they're just like, you know, anything goes.
Oh, you're wearing a gi? It's cool. he'll hook them. I don't think that's right. Oh, he's a white belt. Let the white belt. So hook. I definitely don't think that's right, but okay. Wristlock, wristlock, all the white belts. Like, dude, like I got to leave this jump. I can't be here. People are going to die. It's like a bad episode of survivor, except with everyone with jujitsu skills and just utter mayhem. I get it. I'd watch that. Hey, we can get this green lit. put together a little sprint.
I've seen some, some things on television. I'm pretty sure we can make this happen with stuff I've been seeing lately. It's like, Oh my God, they okay. That I've got some ideals with your training right now. You know, you said you just, you know, kind of returned back in November from the Achilles injury. Like how, how often are you training per week? Like once a week, it's been, And going, well, I'm trying to be cautious with the Achilles, but I try to get in at least once a week.
And I think at some point I'll get off my lazy duff and I'll go into two a week. Three a week would be really optimistic for me. Oh, I keep telling myself, you know, I really should like return to like competition. So maybe this summer, if my mind and body agree, I'll start considering doing like one of those international sort of competitions.
Because for me at this stage, as I'm getting more and more seasoned and the calendar keeps turning, I'm thinking to myself, as long as I continue to age gracefully, I could really wrist lock a bunch of people my own age, on the international scene or any of my other devious little tricks. I wonder, on the bigger stage, the Europeans just recently took place, I want to say this past week, maybe. I wonder what's their fill on wrist locks and if they got a good grasp on it.
Just out there rolling. I know we sent a couple guys over for Europeans. I know one of them is big on wrist locking because he forced me into a wrist lock.
I'm not that I was nowhere near what I thought was a wrist lock and somehow he grabbed my hand tucked it into his like like between his like shoulder and his like chin and wrist lock was like dude you could just use your hand you don't have to do it this way but like I wonder you know what that's you know what you know what they're feeling is over in you know Europe with with wrist locks and hell I mean even Brazil you know all right.
I think they're kind of mixed bag when it comes to leg locks and different things like that. But I'm always curious. They probably think those crazy Americans. I know one of our teammates won gold at the most recent Europeans over in, I guess it was in Paris. And I believe his stats were four out of five of his victories were wrist locks.
So clearly there's a cult demonic submissions that that apparently i'm a part of well, it sounds like it's pretty clear that over there they're not well versed in wrist locks then, it's like and i'm willing to bet the one that he didn't win by wrist lock he probably was going for it and they're just like here take the arm bar instead so it would have been five for five but But yeah, that's exciting, though, just the thought of considering coming back and competing,
maybe, because I know for me, that's something that's been kind of creeping in my mind is like, do I want to do this? And I think for me, the big part of it isn't so much the competition. I think it's the work to get to the competition now because it's a lot. So you definitely need that. Hone your skill set and advance your game before getting there and i get that.
So we'll see if the body cooperates maybe i'll as ll says don't call to come back, i can say that you know i'm the ultimate cheerleader i will tell everybody yo get out there i believe you got this i'll start seeing your motivational videos rocky soundtrack and everything and then like so don't you're gonna do it oh no. I'm not doing anything. I'm not crazy. I got stuff to do. I got action figures to buy. Why would I compete?
I'm nice. I'm friendly. I got a podcast. I want people to want to come on here and be my guest. I don't know about that. Somebody beat me so bad in competition. I was like, hey, you want to be on my podcast? They probably just looked at me like, no. No, we good. I'll listen, though. No, you won't. That hurts. But I'm glad to hear that, though. So, you know, one thing that I never knew this about you, actually, I don't think I knew it for a while, while training with you is that you're a lawyer.
It is so contrary to my work life persona that people who I've worked with who have found out they're like, what? That's crazy. But yeah, even from the very start, when I was first introduced to jiu-jitsu, I was practicing law as a very young associate at my first firm. And now I'm just in a place where I'm, I guess, one of the more seasoned attorneys within my legal department. And people probably think it's a little bit out there for me to be doing this.
But it actually, in a weird sense, has kind of helped. I'll put it this way. Most people, at least unless you're like semi-psychotic, don't like physical confrontation. I mean, we don't go out there to the Wegmans or to the Safeway with the mindset that, you know, I'm going to beat someone's butt over here or by the salad bar. No one thinks that way. Again, unless you should be locked up and you're just a burden to society anyway.
And I'm the same way. I don't do physical confrontation and actually just the verbal confrontation in practicing law is, I had to grow into that. Having practiced jujitsu, it gives you such a remarkable sense of calm during potential confrontational moments in life that I think it's really helped me with my own practice, to be honest with you. Things don't stress me out, even in the worst scenarios where, you know, when I was in trial and things weren't going necessarily all that well.
So I just would think back to a moment on the mat where things were really dire. And I'd say, OK, this will pass. I'll tell you this one funny story. I had this one expert witness on the stand, and I'm working my stuff with him and cross-examining him. And it was over the issue of reaction time. Basically, his side of the case was that my clients roughed up his clients prematurely. They exhibited excessive force and all what have you against his client.
The other part of the story was his client had rushed my clients and my clients reacted to that being rushed with putting hands on them, which I thought was somewhat reasonable. So my cross-examination of him was, you know, you would admit that, you know, in the span of 10 feet, you don't know what a person might be carrying. You don't know what threat they are. And he was trying to convince me that, you know, they should have employed like verbal tactics with this person.
And I'm thinking that wouldn't work. And one of my questions to him was, you know, he's sitting on the witness stand and I'm in the well of the courtroom questioning him. And I'm saying to him. If I were to approach him, you know, with hostile intent, would he admit that there's no way he'd be able to stop me before, you know, within 10 feet, 10 feet of space. And he said, Oh, I will put you on your back so fast.
Longer story made short. He also was a jujitsu practitioner from somewhere in Jersey. So we had a good chuckle about that after, after the fact that he was actually a really decent guy. And I'm like, You really think you put me down? He's like, yeah, I put you down. I'm like, I don't think so. But, you know, eventually maybe we'll hook up on the mat somewhere and we'll figure this out. But yeah, funny moments in the practice of law when jiu-jitsu and lawyering collide.
Oh, did you see that one viral clip of the dude who jumped over and attacked the judge? Yes. That was so wild. And I'm thinking, if I were the judge and he jumped over there, I would take an arm or I would wrist lock him or something. But the personnel in the courthouse, I was looking at the video and they were just so ineffective. effective. And it's just a constant reminder that the vast majority of the universe, when stuff goes down, like Cypress Hill says, but in more profane terms,
just aren't prepared for a physical encumber. And that's the beauty of jujitsu for me. I mean, the amount of self-confidence that it inspires in you, that you can be anywhere out with your family and your friends. And if someone jumps over the proverbial bench and tries to jump you, you're safe. I hope they have good insurance.
Well, it's also funny too, just the chances of, you know, know that situation being earned and both people you know practice jiu-jitsu which is becoming almost kind of a more common thing you know to to some degree you know i think a lot of people if they don't particularly stick with it maybe they've dabbled so they might have some ideal not a full ideal if they only stuck around for the trial but people are trying at least i've I've always thought,
and I never get in physical confrontations, I don't know, maybe it's just, either I look too reasonable for people to try to pick on me, or maybe I just am too beefy for people to pick on me. I always thought that if I ever got in a confrontation with someone physically and we come to find out that we're both in jujitsu, we'd be best friends and we'd go out and have drinks or something, because it really is a brother and sisterhood in jujitsu.
And I know it's a growing population, but still, you know, you kind of appreciate the journey other people are on too. I always talk with one of my co-hosts about he's a big boxing fan and you know we we talk about MMA boxing jiu-jitsu things like that and you know a lot of times the conversation comes up of you know just really you know you know what if this person fought this person that are not and you you know, they're always hypotheticals. And it's like, well, I mean...
At the end of the day, I don't imagine they're going to, you know, unless it's, you know, a paid fight, you know, it's something that's sanctioned, you know, most people who practice martial arts or any kind of combat sport for the most part, don't tend to, you know, practice it out in, in the open, out in the regular everyday life, because, you know, most of us are, you know, we, we, we know that violence now.
So we're like, this can hurt someone or, and, you know, also not just that you could get hurt no matter how well versed you are, you know, injuries can happen. And, you know, when we practice in the, in the gym, you know, we're all under the same ideal and we're doing things, we know how to roll and, and, and keep each other safe.
But if you're in a situation out in the street and, you know, you do something silly and end up in a bad situation, although you might, you know, come out on top, there's still matters where you could end up zigging when you should have zagged and, you know, get hurt. So I think a lot of us tend to, you know, use, you know, verbal de-escalation, but we know we have it in our pocket if we need it.
I think some of the most peaceable and well-adjusted people are my jiu-jitsu friends who have attempted to strangle me or put me in various locks or hill holds or what have you. Some of the more maladjusted people are the ones that really can't fight, but they probably watched a couple of UFCs and a couple of videos. When they see red bodies start hitting the floor, sort of mindset.
That's, that's always my favorite thing to hear is like, well, when I see red, I, I had a coworker, old coworker, they would say, I don't know. I mean, if I black out and I was like, if you black out, it's a cost you can choke out and you black out it. Yeah. There's a reason for it. It's always, it's just crazy. Cause I still hear people to this day still saying it, but those are also people who probably haven't, you know, touched violence in, in, in a way that.
But it's like when you see two guys at the bar fighting, it's two people who more than likely don't know how to fight. So it's like, you know, you'll hear things like I think there's a rumor of Jimmy Fallon getting into some scraps and they're like, oh, Jimmy Fallon can fight. And it's just a weird thing. You know, it's like, really? There are degrees to that, to fighting. Right. And I would make everyone could be dangerous for 30 seconds.
And then after 30 seconds that separates the degrees of your skill set i mean i used to box in college till like my sophomore junior year when i decided i was taking too many shots to the head and i needed to focus on you know graduation things like that and you know not have my folks waste money on my college education just for me to take punches every day but it's a it's a beautiful All martial arts have some degree of beauty from boxing to Muay Thai to jujitsu.
Jujitsu is just what's always captivated me because it's overused when you say it's you in chess. A physical struggle against someone else who has similar skill set and is resisting you is probably as close to an actual fight as you're going to get without the punches to the face or the knees and all that stuff. And for that, you can just do Muay Thai class or kickboxing class. But yeah, it gives you the ultimate sense of satisfaction and confidence.
I don't know where I would have been in life without Jiu-Jitsu. I probably would weigh it a whole lot more. Maybe I'd be lifting more and putting on gym muscles and saying body's going to hit the floor after I see red and black out. Maybe I'd be one of those gym bros. I hope not. Jiu-jitsu turned me from that. I was that when I came into jiu-jitsu. I was that guy. I was lifting weights, had muscles all up my neck. I was like, oh my God, what is this guy looking to do?
Then when I got choked with my own T-shirt. I realized, OK, maybe just maybe all these muscles ain't doing nothing for me. That's not to say strength doesn't have its place. You know, there is the great debate these days. But, you know, if you got a bunch of a bunch of muscle and you ain't got no skill, you know, you're just a target now for someone to show you the gentle art and fold your clothes while you're still wearing them.
So, I mean, unless you're that 0.5% of muscle and mass, like what's his name? Brian Shaw, you know, those guys who are like three, four pounds strong man competition. Yeah. They don't have necks and there are certain submissions you probably want to go for. Like arm bars are probably useless because their arms are the size of your legs. Anyway Those are like the point something percent of dudes That once they learn jujitsu plus their mass and strength are going to be terrifying.
Most everyone else, their cardio is only going to be limited to X amount of time. And, you know, I've always thought worst case scenario, I just employ the dark arts, wrist locks and elokes. Yeah. Well, again, there's a time and place for those and practices, not those, but if you're in a dire situation, sometimes you might have to shred someone's ACL, you know, just to remind them, Hey, guess what? The fight can always be taken to the ground, my friend.
But, you know, hopefully, you know, those situations don't come up, you know, where, you know, necessary. But like I said, or a lot of us, we try to deescalate using words, but we have it in our pocket if we need it. Yeah. Well, like you said, it's the gentle art. And for me, it's just a matter of learning and continuing to develop skill sets where I can just be entirely comfortable and just flow through my jiu-jitsu. I don't know when that's going to happen.
It could happen next week or it could happen years from now. But that's what I'm constantly searching for in jiu-jitsu is that perfect zen moment where everything just kind of flows together. The aha. I get it.
Exactly i think those come in like stages or steps at times because i've had like aha moments at like certain points where it's like ha i don't have to use all my strength like all right now that i'm not using all my strength and you get to the next aha moment aha like you know you got to keep moving you're like okay now that i've gotten those two things out of the way ha you know beat Beat a man on top. Like, yes, have a ground game, a guard game, but you shouldn't rely on it.
So I think there are always those phases, those steps as we go through our journey, at least for me. Those are those aha moments where I was like, oh, okay, now I get it. And then I was like, no, no, no, there's more to get. There's still more. There's always something else that you're missing. One of my usual laments is after I come home from a class, I start thinking to myself, wait a second.
And I knew something that I could have done at that particular moment that I'd been training like maybe five or 10 years ago. Why didn't I try that tonight? I'm thinking, oh, yeah. And then I've been in the game long enough where I know a series of different moves and possibilities, but I've forgotten a lot of them because I'm not training multiple times during the week.
And I'm probably not getting any enough buck during the week too, which is probably something I should probably start doing because part of jiu-jitsu is just having the right mindset and thinking through things. Everything is training. Including making some time for yourself to mentally rehearse your game, which is something I probably don't do enough of. I think note-taking is huge. I remember your Friday night class. There's one of the classes, I think I left my notebook and you would give me
your notes. You're like, well, here. I went home and stapled them into my notebook.
Notebook and then i have a second notebook that i write a lot of stuff like it's weird because i have one notebook where i take like post-its and i stick the post-its to the page i have another notebook where i write the stuff out and it doesn't make sense but it does to me it's like i don't know why it's that way but it's like you know i'll write notes on what in writing it out i I know for me makes it kind of like, cause I have to play it out and then like, remember, okay, this is what we did.
And Oh, that that's wrong. Let's take a few steps back. But I'm, I'm also trying to get better at when I'm away from the mat, incorporate and just like thought about it. My daughter, I think we're, well, I know we were putting her in like these acting classes now, which starts this weekend.
And she keeps asking dad you know can can you teach me some jiu-jitsu i'm like well i don't know if i should be the one teaching you jiu-jitsu like because i would be like the worst teacher for her just because she was like i hate jiu-jitsu i hate you it was like but but she's at the age now she's grown like size wise enough where i can kind of work some hill hooks on her her leg is big big enough.
So there's like, as I'm sitting, you know, on the couch sometimes like on my phone looking at like YouTube I'm like, now look over my daughter. I'm like no, her arm isn't quite big enough yet. Like maybe next year. But now I look at her leg and I'm like, but her foot fits.
So but, you know, keeping the thought of jujitsu, you know, away from the mat, you know, it's always one of those things that, i've struggled with but i'm trying to get a lot better at it myself there are times i catch like one of my old notes and i'm thinking to myself what what was i teaching how did i do this. Yeah. It's, it's, it's always beneficial to like a good training partner. You remember Ryan, AKA Kung? I was just thinking about him in that moment.
So I was thinking about when he was teaching us cross chokes and I still, there was like a way that he was showing us, I still do it to this day. Yeah, finding a good training partner.
We used to, even after the Friday night classes, we'd stay after a little while and just experiment with stuff, which helped out tremendously because you need that room to grow your game where you're not just the basics, but also learning situational awareness, what parts of you might be vulnerable to attack, and vice versa with your opponent.
But yeah, those are fun days. hopefully do be recaptured yeah it's it's it's weird now i only typically make it in on saturday and i'm you know starting to do the open mat on sundays now just to get that drilling in but usually during the week the issue that i would always have because i i like that after class you know just kind of five minutes after at least to kind of just ask questions and go over some some things,
but during the week, you know, it's always tough for me to get that just with the night classes. You know, I don't even go to night class anymore anyway, because by the time classes like ending, my wife has to get to work. So I'm like, I'd like, she's probably going to be late, but on Saturdays afterward, it's like, you know, we do open, you know, we have like kind of a 30 minute open mat. We just spar afterward. And then, you know, even after that, we, you know, We'll sit around on the mats
and just talk and then talk to things. Then the talk becomes like, here, let me show you. And then let me show you because, hey, let's drill that a couple more times. So there's evolution to it. It's all about the journey, my friend. Yes, yes. And I think that's something that. Is important and keeping people active on the mat and keeping people, you know, just invested in it is understanding it is a journey.
And if you're in this with ideal of, I say this with everything, podcast and jujitsu comic book collecting. If you're looking at this, we'll use jujitsu as the example there with belts. I'm here for this bill. I'm here for that belt. You're going to struggle. If you go into podcast and right out the gate talking about, I want sponsors and I'm going to make money, that's equal to trying to get belts.
You're going to struggle. If you go into comic book collect and thinking I'm buying this book for this value and that value and that value, you will struggle. And you like, you have to kind of come into it for that journey and really for the love of it. Like I, I wouldn't want to do jujitsu if I didn't like it.
If I hated Jiu Jitsu and I'm just still showing up every week to get wrist locked, you probably should like I don't know check my meds like this dude medicated what's wrong with him or if I'm you know you know collecting comic books spending you know five to ten dollars per book each week thinking like oh this is going to be the one this is going to be one all those books are still worth five to ten dollars.
Nothing's a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars just gotta have passion Definitely agree. One question that I used to ask and I want to get back to ask and and with you haven't been in the game, you know, since the early 2000s that I still, you know, would be interested in knowing, like when you started training, you know, early on. And, you know, you look at yourself from now to, you know, back then. Is there anything that you would say to your younger self on the mats?
You know, your current, you know, brown belt self say to white belt, you know, coach Nell, you know, what advice would you give yourself back then? Or would it wished if someone would have given to you? That's a great question. And it actually has formed my coaching mindset, because when I coach and I teach, I'm always thinking, what can I tell this person is relatively new to the sport that I wish I would have known?
What can I show them that I wish I I wish I could have learned when I first started to avoid the miserable first couple of years of getting your butt whipped. I would say if I were to meet my younger self, it was probably very spazzy. Strong and nimble, I would tell myself, just allow myself to be, or learn to be comfortable in uncomfortable situations on the mat.
And I think initially when I started, and it still creeps in occasionally, I was always trying to avoid a situation where I wasn't comfortable. Like I didn't want to be inside, you know, under side control. I wouldn't want to be under someone's mount. I didn't want someone to take my back. I always wanted to have top control if at all possible. And I always wanted to be on the attack.
But had I been able to convince the younger me to just enjoy the journey enough where you have to put yourself in bad situations and learn to breathe through it and just defend through it, I think that probably would have saved me some years of grief.
And actually, I will give a shout out to one of my OG friends, friends, Paul Greenhill, who is now a black belt and was one of the original OGs at Team Lloyd Irving, he used to have us do a session in class where one person could only defend and the other person had to attack.
And that kind of opened me up to the whole notion that because the persons who were attacking typically weren't getting submissions, and he would explain that if your focus is entirely entirely undefending, you'll probably defend and you won't be submitted. So it got me in the mindset of thinking, well, I just need to have this, that mindset.
Sometimes just give in knowing that for this stretch of time in this match, I'm just going to be defending because the person has got the upper hand and I just need to wait right out the storm until I can swap roles with them. But yeah, that'd be my advice. Just learn to get comfortable in bad situations and not freak out and use all your oxygen, your cardiovascular energy to try to escape. Let it go.
I wish I would have known that back then as well, because that first year, what's the first year of once per week and learning that probably at the beginning part of, you know, year two is like, oh, wait a minute. Like if I was here more often, I probably would have learned that three months in instead of a year in. So that's definitely.
Yes. Extremely important. There's nothing worse than someone larger than you on top of you, sweating on top of you, and attempting to attack your neck or whatever. And when you learn to ignore the pain and the suffering, that's when your jujitsu really takes off, I think, because you're always only a moment away from escaping.
Unless of course you've exhausted yourself because you know mentally or you're you're depleted by being in that bad situation i've always thought for like in ufc fights you see the five minute rounds and guys look exhausted and spent after five not because they're bad athletes and they're not in shape it's because of you know the psychology and the emotions and everything everything else that goes into fighting.
But some of the guys with the best cardio are just the guys who train at high altitude, but they're also guys who are incredibly relaxed when they're fighting. But if you're tense all five minutes, I can't do that anymore. I think last week, I was so like just...
Tired so like physically burnt out i think the last two rolls of the open mat sparring after class like i looked at you know my partner across from me was like okay why don't we do this and they got it like i didn't have to say anything they immediately picked up on the fact that this is going to be the most flowy flow roll that you've ever encountered and it was just that It was a dance. We were moving in ways where it was like, okay, we're just action releasing and just flowing.
That was one of the other blue belts with me. The white belt that I rolled with like that, they picked up on it eventually because they said, okay, this guy's not really attacking me. He's like, I was attacking, but I wasn't like, you know, putting my weight down on him or anything and mount, you know, I was like kind of giving him room to work with. And he was just trying to keep everything loose, keep everything flowing because we just got done with an hour class.
And then we just had 25 minutes or 20 minutes of sparring here, like six minute rounds. So let's just, let's just relax. Do you see, I I'm the sweaty guy in a gym and there's a pool right here. So I don't want to do this. And, and there is something extremely important to that, you know, relaxing and not being so tense. And, you know, it's funny because I think it's like, I wish everybody knew that.
But sometimes, you know, you can say that to people, but it just it takes practice, I guess, to get there. It does. You have to really commit yourself to the relaxation component of jujitsu. And it's not always the easiest thing to kind of give in to your ego and your aggressive mindset. But that's what makes the journey so important. I guess, and so worth it. Absolutely. Well, I feel like that's the perfect spot to wrap up here on.
So, Coach Nill, thank you again for doing this. Thank you for sharing your info. I appreciate you having me on. I've never done a podcast. I did radio way back when, but I've never done a podcast. So, putting this off, scratching this off my bucket list. You're still at Saverna Park, right? Yep. I need to come visit you guys at some point. I told Jose I was going to do that.
Yep we are there on saturday mornings and sunday mornings now i believe but yeah absolutely i would love the to roll with you it's funny because sometimes on saturday mornings you'll show up and it's a whole bunch of the old ivy league guys and it's like oh this is the og and i'm like oh og crew like i need to come here more and then i'll come the next week and it's like whoa whoa wait a minute there's a bunch of new faces and no old faces here anymore like you don't need to
text me let me know uh but yeah i'm putting it on my list of things to do and just let everyone know if they go after my left ankle it's on well i'm sure you know the crew that's there they know they those seems like okay we've got a jedi walking in here y'all better chill just relax Relax, but, but good, good. And, you know, you know, with this being your first time doing a podcast, I'm glad to, to have, you know, opened you to, to this world.
Hopefully I love to have you back on again, just to. You know, like the conversation was so casual and super flowy. It's like, you know, that felt like a flow roll. So that's us. We're, we're distinguished gentlemen. We, we, we flow. Hey, I'm getting there. Like I wouldn't go that far. So I'm distinguished yet. I'm a gentleman yet, but I'm working there. I'm working there, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I'd be happy to come back and I'll watch a few more horror flicks and give you
my opinions on that. Okay. You know, I'm all for that. As a matter of fact, After I get done here, I have to have my wife record an intro for our Nightmare on Elm Street episode. And then I got some notes to do for a found footage episode. So it never ends. Never ends. As long as you're doing what you love. Absolutely. And as always, to everyone listening, thank you so much. If you have any questions, concerns, criticisms, feel free to reach out.
You can find me at bjj.wiki on Instagram or off the mats podcast on Instagram. Either of those spots, mostly BJJ wiki, because that's kind of the major one. But, and also you can email me. I sometimes check them. Not a lot. You can email me at off the mats podcast. Or is it off the mats 2020 off the mats 2020 at gmail.com. I do check it. I promise you. It's just, I got a lot of emails. I got a lot of Instagram accounts. Sometimes I'll be forgetting things.
So, but the link will be in the show notes. That's it's much easier. And I love to give a big shout out to my crew over there at nerve rage radio, Bobby, Chris, Joe, Maryland, Phil, Ricky, Tiki. If you guys make this far every week, you know, the names. Cause I actually forget most of them. Thank you to those guys. If it weren't for them, I would not be doing podcasting. I started with them many, many years ago, and here we are now.
I had to do my own show because they didn't want to talk about jiu-jitsu. They want to talk comics. So I just made my own show. So thank you to Nerd Rage Radio. Go check them out if you're not listening to them. Also want to give a big shout out to my other podcast, So You Like Horror? It's about scary movies. And as you probably just heard, there's a Nightmare on Elm Street episode that is out. You guys should probably go listen to that.
It was a fun time talking with another grappler, actually, up there in Ohio, Chad Kuhn, up at Team East Coast. So go check that episode out. And Eugene Weaver, an author. So go check that episode out. It was a lot of fun. And, you know, we're prepping for a couple more fun episodes in the Cursed Films arena there. So we're going to be talking about Twilight Zone, the film or Twilight, Twilight Zone, the movie.
Movie and then we're getting ready to set up the omen as well because apparently there's some curse stuff going on they believe but twilight zone the movie it wasn't cursed it was just john landis was breaking some laws and they say it's cursed i say it was just bad bad judgment and last but not least i would love to give a big shout out here again to mr coach neil duke Luke, thank you for doing this. Had a great time. And I feel like I learned so much just as usual.
I'm always learning from you. So thank you for that. It's a lot of fun. I appreciate you having me on. I appreciate you making the time, especially on short notes. I just reached out to you the other day. You're like, yeah, I got this. Now I have to change the date. And you're like, I could do that too. Yeah, I work from home. So I'm a captive audience. Fair enough. Fair enough. So thank you for that.
And as always thank you again to all the listeners you guys keep listening and we're going to keep making these shows thank you everyone and goodbye. Music. Now let me see his song.