Sexual Safety in Non-monogamy with Evalene Dacker-MD

Take a listen . Hey , I'm Alicia , your non-monogamous relationship coach . Welcome to the podcast where my friends and I chat about our relationships enthusiastic non-monogamy polyamory , swinging kink and our lives . You'll get a candid peek into what makes it worth it to live life outside the box .

And in case you're still wondering Nope , we're Not Monogamous have you ever felt awkward or uncomfortable talking about STIs and sexual safety with a new partner , an existing partner ? Anybody at all ? I know I sure have . Today I'm being joined by Evelyn Dacker-MD , a Latinx American sex positive integrative family medicine physician .

She created the Safer Sex Communication Model , stars , to help facilitate open and honest sex conversations .

She's a consent and sex educator , sexual health activist and a TEDx speaker , and she's talking to us today about her STARS framework , but also about love and polyamory and relationships and how to stay grounded when you're feeling new relationship , energy and how she mastered compersion .

Evelyn is she's active in creating a safe space for LGBT , qia , youth and adults and helping people through illness , trauma , life transitions towards finding balance and joy . She incorporates a multidisciplinary approach with principles of gratitude and pleasure to support her patients when they're creating their own wellness .

And , in addition to practicing medicine , evelyn was the executive director of Sex Positive Portland from 2017 to 2020 . I am ridiculously excited to talk to her today because I've been a fan of her work for quite a while . I think you're going to love this conversation , and not not only love it , but get a ton out of it .

Enjoy there , it is Perfect , awesome , okay , well , welcome . I'm really , really excited to chat with you . I've been following you for quite a while , actually , and , as I'm sure you know , my podcast is Nope , we're not monogamous , so the things I love to talk about are sex , love and non monogamous relationships . Good , I like to talk about that too .

Yeah , and I actually teach a . How I found you ? I teach a group sex course and I was like a big part of this needs to be sexual safety and STI is and you know all of the information that people need to have . And I think someone sent me a link to your website , to your stars website . Okay , yeah , and I was like , oh my God , who is this ?

I need to know more . So I was kind of fangirling over you and was like you know , I should just ask her to come on the podcast .

What's your relationship structure style that you associate with Such a good ?

You know , I was one of those people that was non monogamous before I got married , then had this stretch monogamy and thought , oh , all the issues in my marriage could be solved if I go back to being non monogamous , which , as if anybody who's read polysecure never works . It just doesn't ever work . And I we ended up .

I ended up leaving my marriage about five years ago and since then , since 2014 , I consider myself polyamorous , which is a form of non monogamy .

It's very heart based and I have , you know , it's interesting navigating the world as somebody who's polyamorous to and I'm , you know , one of the one of the things I've been thinking a lot about today is that I have a new partner who I'm falling in love with and thinking , like you know , because I'm polyamorous , I have another serious relationship and you know ,

a bunch of lovers . People don't really take it as seriously and sometimes I'm like , oh , maybe I shouldn't take it as seriously , because when we're monogamous and we have one person that we're falling in love with , oh my God , that's the whole world right .

And when I tell people I'm falling in love , and they're like , yeah , but you have , you know , this person and that person and I'm like , yeah , but it's being polyamorous , it's still very significant and it's still really meaningful and it's still really exciting .

So , yeah , I'm not looking to like get married and I'm beyond having children or you know , I'm not looking for that one . So it's just interesting . So I'm polyamorous and I have a long term relationship of about five years .

I have a common relationship also that's about five years long , and then I have a couple of other common relationships and then I'm falling in love with somebody now .

I like I have been non monogamous like for about eight years , and when I met my husband now similar I was married monogamously for 13 years and then , when we split , I was like , actually I don't want to be monogamous again , like that's just not what I want to spend another 13 years doing .

And so my husband and I have never we never were closed and but I wasn't sure if I was polyamorous , right Until I fell in love with someone else and I was like , oh , okay , actually now I see , now I see what it is , but I just I wasn't sure .

You know , and there's something about when you're monogamous that like all of these assumptions come with love , like now it means we have to do all of these things , and when you take that expectation off the table , it's like you get to I don't know , just enjoy the falling in love part more .

And really I was listening to this podcast , this other podcast a friend sent me I'm forgetting the name of Glenn and Doyle , somebody very famous and they were talking about like falling in love and landing in love , and I loved that . I was like , oh yeah , I really . To me , I think the goal of polyamory is landing in love .

One is all the neurochemicals , right dopamine , the oxytocin , all that yummy stuff . But there's also this element that we project with to other people and that's where expectations comes to . And then , when we're in that , if we have other lovers , how does it affect and land on our other lovers ?

And how do we navigate NRE biologically , spiritually and , you know , physically , and still be in that love relationship with those lovers that you land , have landed with already , right , that you're landed in love with because they are so important .

And so it's been really interesting for me to be in this situation because it's been a long time since I fell in love .

I have the somewhat of a clinical detachment to that because it's like , oh , this is what's going on and I find it actually it very dysregulating to my nervous system . You know , I don't sleep , I don't eat , I don't like that .

But what I have found that's really helpful is to for me to recognize that those are just passing phases and to really work on not projecting all this like fantasy on this other person and at the same time , being really grounded , honest and authentic with my current , you know , primary partner .

I keep we don't live together , so we don't have a marriage , but it's so important that he understands that he's still important , that I am still going to make time for him , that I am , that you know I'm not going to just throw him out because I have this new and shiny thing , and so I think that just you know , making those choices and kind of showing up

for him . It also keeps me really grounded in what it is because I have this other beautiful relationship that's healthy and that's , you know caring , and then I have this new shiny thing . So it's it's , you know navigating . That is it , in a way , the first time .

I'm kind of doing that , even though I've had multiple partners in the past and even other , you know , co partners . I don't really like using the hierarchy . It just still was different . It was like they were both , like I was NRE about both of them at the same time , and this time I'm not .

But actually the most important part of stars is knowing those five elements for ourselves and what they are is our sexual health , sti status , what turns us on , what we need to avoid , our relationship intentions and expectations and our safer sex etiquette , or how we're going to create a safer sex container together .

And it was really exciting for me to have some new person that really has never done stars or talked about it , you know , and to have to start a relationship with that , and it was great . I think that also was key to keeping me from floating away too much Because you know we really we got into it .

I was like when I first talked about what my relationship you know intentions are and desires , I made it very clear like what am I ? Not what I want him to want , but what are mine .

And maybe he can't meet it and that's okay , but knowing like , oh , this is actually the kind of relationship I want to have with someone and being able to express it to them without fear just was so amazing . I mean , it really opened up this whole way of communicating .

And then you know also , my other partner knows and is part of that conversation in a way as well , looping them both in .

For my own life , since I've started doing it , it has made all of like . When I don't do it with a person is always when I like trip up with them , like , oh no , you got to , let's go back , let's start over . Okay , what is it that we want , what don't I like you know .

So I find that having this pre relate , pre intimacy talk also makes my personal polyamory just really quite , I hate to say easy , but kind of easy .

I was trying to learn more about sexuality to bring to my patients and I was kind of doing a little blog . So I took this class and they were talking about this like elevator speech and I was like that is fascinating . There was about 15 things that they were supposed to talk about . But I was just like , oh , my God , why don't we do this ?

Like this is something I have to teach all my patients . So I went back and I would be sitting there writing all these things , like talk about these things , and I'm like this I need something that sums it up better . So I came up with stars . And again , stars is our sexual health and STI status , and these are the things that we .

I believe that if we learn to communicate these five things to each other before we actually have sex and it's not just hookups , it's like any kind of relationship , it's like it's like maybe even sometimes a friendship .

I don't know , but , like you , probably would don't need the sexual health part , but sexual health , our turn ons , you know what are our desires , what is it we want in relationship ? But also , like , how do we like to be touched ? What turns us on ? What are our arousal patterns ? Are they ? Are you super sexual ? Are you kinky ? Are you more tantric ?

You know , like , what is it that you really seek ? Because we don't . Everybody kind of just assumes that everybody's just having , like , penis and vagina sex all the time , and that's the only . And then the next one is avoids , which are boundaries . What are the things that you don't want to do , or are just no-nos

, or even like , like . For me , I have three like major no-nos and they're don't yell at me , don't call me names and don't hang up on me . You know , so , like , that's one of my right . Those are some of my avoids and if and I make that very clear in the beginning , but it's also like don't slap me without my consent .

Or , you know , don't put , don't ejaculate on me without you know , without having a conversation , for you know , like some , some pretty simple basic things that people don't talk about . But then you find yourself in the situations and like , oh my God , that really pissed me off , right , so right , knowing our boundaries .

It's also a really important place that if we've had prior trauma and we could maybe it's a little door to open up and talk about that with a person , because , especially people who are raised as women , when we get into a , you know , sexual trauma space , we tend to either fawn or freeze and it's very hard for partners to pick up that you may be dissociating

and you're maybe in a trauma response then . So it's so . I believe that , just like knowing what happens to oneself and letting your partner know before you even get any close off is just going to save so much heartache .

And then there's a relationship , intentions and expectations , which is probably my favorite and maybe the hardest one , because you got to really know what the hell you want . And sometimes , like I have somebody , I have some partners , all I want to have is sex and that's great . So like we just know that that's what our relationship .

It's still very love based and sacred , but it's just a different flavor than somebody who I want to actually go deep with in a more , you know , energetic or spiritual way with a person so , like you know , you can have different intentions and expectations from other people .

I also like that place to talk about aftercare , which is like some of this talk doesn't just come from that first safer sex talk . It also evolved through kink consent , swinger consent , polyamorous , like .

I just took all these concepts or all these sex positive subcultures to really try to bring it out to the mainstream , because man , could you just imagine how great things could be if we knew this stuff about each other .

So that's why stars really excites me . The last S started out kind of like oh , what do you say for sex protocols ? But it's actually changing . It's morphing into , like creating a safer sex container with another person . Like , what do you need to have this container that you can become authentic ?

So for someone , if I was just going to go hook up with someone , then I would want to know okay , are we going to use condoms ? How much alcohol , or are there other chemicals that are going to be in the mix ? And how do we negotiate that I don't have to worry about pregnancy anymore ?

So that's not important for me , but for other people it could be it also . But it's bigger than that , because it's also about like , how do we keep ourselves safe within intimacy and co-create it with another person ? And sometimes it's hey , let's make sure that we have check-ins , or and are we meeting each other's needs .

Also , knowing , I think , that one of the things for me personally that stars is so important is it empowers me .

So if I'm with a partner that I do this whole talk with and then they don't listen to it , or we're in bed and then they do something that is obviously like that goes against it , then it empowers me to be able to say , oh , this isn't going to work out and I'm going to step out . That makes sense ?

You know just everything that if we actually start talking about these important elements before we ever get naked and then we know that they're important things to talk about throughout our relationship , yeah , yeah , I love that .

You want me to tell a stranger my STI status , or you want me to tell a stranger what turns me on ? By the end of the class every single person is like that was fantastic , because I got to hear other people , I got to practice and now I'm going to go home and I'm going to do it with a friend .

And then find a friend or , if you're in a relationship , say , hey , let's do this together . We've never really done this . Let's sit down and do . Make it a game . I have done it as a game on Tinder dates . I have done it with friends .

I mean , it's something that could be easily modified , but practicing it makes it so much easier the first time you do it . That's why it's so nice to do the workshops , because it's usually the first time people do it and then they feel so much more comfortable doing it .

If we could get them to start talking about it , oh my gosh , I really believe we're going to decrease sexual assaults , we're going to decrease non-consent touch .

I feel very motivated by really wanting to decrease I mean one of the big reasons I want to decrease sexual assault on college campuses or for young adults , for people between the age of 19 and 25 , who do have the greatest risk of sexual assault , and when that happens at that age , it could impact everybody's entire life and your own sexuality and the ways that

you feel about your body , etc . Etc . So for me , that's what really keeps me every time I get tired and I'm like , oh , I'm never going to get anywhere , nobody's going to care , nobody's listening to this , how is it going to get out ? I just remember like , no , I have to keep plugging away because I really want to try to make an impact .

Absence based sex ed just keeps us controlled and doesn't really teach us how to have relationships and even how to own our bodies or be in our bodies , right yeah or know that you're even allowed to have pleasure .

a physician , it feels like sometimes all I'm doing is telling people not to have pleasure . Don't eat this , don't have that , go exercise or two , you know we got to stop smoking , like just everything . So , like you know , and and that is not helpful .

I think that by actually recognizing how much pleasure , how important pleasure is , how important pleasure is to get us out of our head and into our body , and how much better we are living this life when we actually share space with this beautiful thing we call our body .

I coach polyamorous people and non monogamous people and in all the realms , but in this group sex course I love to give people a framework that they can go into , have essentially an elevator speech like memorize , so if they're in a , at a party or something that they can just bust things out quickly in a conversation before they start swapping bodily fluids .

And so one of the questions that I get asked a lot there are is about totally lost it . What was the question ? I know what it , I know what it is , it'll come to me , oh what ?

One of the questions I get a lot is if the STI is that are commonly tested for can be transferred orally , because everybody talks about condom usage and nobody talks about dental dams or gloves or any of that .

But then we start thinking that's what we need for everything , right , that's what we need for . And it is true , like , condoms definitely help with gonorrhea and Chlamydia , syphilis , but they don't have what things like herpes or HPV , all those other viruses . And then , you're right , what do you do about oral stuff ? Could you get things orally ?

Genitals , of course , and how do you prevent the oral transmission ?

Like , if somebody is not having intercourse but they're doing oral sex on a person and they have gonorrhea , and they think , oh , I don't have to worry about gonorrhea because you know we're not doing any insertions , but you can get gonorrhea in the back of your throat , you can get Chlamydia in your eye , right ? So what do you do ? How do you prevent that ?

Well , the second thing that the CDC says is you should be monogamous , and if you keep being monogamous , then you should abstain . Right , that's how you prevent it all . So a lot of these things are difficult to navigate .

When you're sexually active and there's certain bacteria and viruses and , you know , parasites that are transmitted through close contact , you don't have to have sex , it just through close body , body contact . You're going to pass things on to each other , but you can also pass , like staff , infections , but we don't consider that an , you know an STI .

So what do you do other than wearing like full body latex or abstaining ? I mean so really , the answer goes back to like why it's so important to do that . The star stock is you just get routinely tested . You get routinely tested . You get tested everywhere that you have a point of insertion .

So like , if you are having oral sex , even if you're not having genital sex , you should get tested in your throat for for gonorrhea and chlamydia . And then you know , okay , that's okay , you should get tested in your genitals and if you're having anal sex , you should get tested in your anus as well for those , for those bacterias .

And then you know routine testing for syphilis and HIV , depending on your , on your status , which brings us to the two other . You know , there's the two . There's hepatitis , which you can get tested . But the two other H's that are kind of the nemesis of all STIs , and that's herpes and HPV . Hpv is , you know , the common cold of STIs .

I just assumed that you have it . You had it and if you have it you're going to find it and it's going to be treated and it's going to go away . People really kind of make a much bigger deal out of it , but it's because now we're testing for it . So now people are like all wrapped up around it .

Before the testing was available , which you know , the testing only really became available universally maybe 15 years ago . Oh , okay , it's pretty new . I think it started being tested in the 80s , but routine testing probably started about 15 years ago . So so now we know , and now we're all worried about HPV .

I'd say don't worry about HPV , there's no way of decreasing other than vaccinations and just you know , just being as careful as possible . So then that leads for herpes , my favorite STI . Only because it's so . I find herpes really interesting , like as a virus .

I find it interesting as well as how people relate to it , and I find herpes is the metaphor for all of our sex fears , all of our sex guilt , all of our sex shame , like if you could put it in one bottle and put it and make it into a virus . It's herpes .

Because people feel that , like if they get herpes , they they're dirty , they did something wrong , they're marked for life right , because they have a virus .

But if they got chickenpox and they get a shingles outbreak which is practically the same thing I've never heard anybody be upset about that it's like , oh yeah , that sucks , it's painful , I'm unhappy , but I've never heard somebody be like I'm a pariah now Nobody will ever love me because I have shingles .

But they do with herpes , with herpes simplex , and so I think that my best answer for that is really examine where your fear comes from . Examine where that fear and that risk tolerance of like no , I won't be around anybody with herpes . Why , what does it mean to you and why is it so traumatic ?

I feel like there's ways that we can minimize transmission , and those ways are you know by somebody , by talking about it , by using antivirals , and really the people who get the most herpes are adolescents , because they're not talking about it Right .

And then black people , latinx people have a very especially women have a much higher rate , and I think that's also because the cultures . We just don't talk about sex and we don't talk about things . And then we like , oh , if you get it , then you're really , you're stigmatized for it . Yeah , there's no good .

You know , the blood test , the serum blood test , is the best we got , but it's very problematic Because if you come back showing that you have an antibody and we all know what antibodies are now because of COVID if it shows that we have antibodies , well , I guess that means that we've had herpes . So I guess if we've had herpes then we could transmit it .

But the truth is we just don't know because it's not studied well enough . Most of the studies that were done were done , like you know , 20 years ago . We haven't had any really good studies on how , if people have positive antibodies , are they shedding , are they transmissible ? We just don't know . So it's hard for me to say , oh , yes , you have herpes .

Are you transmitting it ? Possibly , but how you know ? But possibly not , and what do you do about that ? And for me it's like okay , and what does that matter If you haven't had an outbreak ever , or if your outbreaks are so low or if you're on antivirals .

So I don't mean to minimize it , but I really , really just believe that so much of our fear is tied into our sex negativity and what we're doing , and that we're doing something that brings us pleasure , but our entire life . We're told that we shouldn't be doing it and we shouldn't be doing it with more than one person .

And if we get this it's because you know , because we're slutty or because we may miss it . Yeah , I never have a good answer for people like I can't . I don't have a great like oh , yeah , be tested , or yeah , don't be tested , or it's definitely not part of the STI panel , it's not recommended . So most doctors will not order it .

You , if it's really important to find out , if you've had those antibodies , and the other thing is like the antibodies could cross react with other herpes and other herpes viruses . So sometimes it might show that you have the antibodies but it may not be from herpes simplex . We just don't know . And so those false positives are pretty high .

So most doctors won't order the test . Most doctors , if they ordered the test , they don't know how to read the test and then they'll say , yes , it's positive and go live with that .

But if it's really important for a person , especially a non monogamous person , to want to be tested because their polycule wants it or whatever reasons , then there is something in the CDC says that if you have multiple partners that you can get the test . It's one of the five reasons to be tested If you have multiple partners .

So I always tell people if you really wanted to tell your doctor the CDC says that if you have multiple partners you can get the serum test and then that person , the patient , should go do some work and understand how the tests are read . In fact , if you go to my website , even the stars website , I have a little on my own website , evelinedakkercom .

I have a herpes handbook and I have an STI handbook that kind of explains how you should read the tests , if you would . If they do the one test that I the most useful test and it's called herpes select and then find doctors , if you can , that are sex positive and know how to counsel people and how to deal with disclosure and yeah , and try to recognize .

You know we're in the middle of a pandemic where people don't even people who are dying don't believe exists so and yet herpes is like such a horrible thing .

You know , like like there's so much information and nobody knows what is factual or not factual .

It not probably it will be much milder than if you didn't have anything . If you have type one on your lips , never had it , generally it could also be milder because you have some of the antibodies . So having type one could almost be protective .

The thing that I always tell my clients is if you like , if you're having sex , you're taking a measured risk , absolutely .

So , yes , if you're going to begin a sex party , if you're going to do a hookup , if you're going to do anything , you're taking a risk . And and you take a risk with more than just us to ice , right , you're taking a risk emotionally , you're taking a risk physically in other ways .

I mean , doctors are uncomfortable talking about sexuality because we're not taught it . So a lot of people . And we're taught , you know , monogamy , abstinence , condoms , the whole big spiel and not real life stuff . But when doctors , just like any other people , realize that there's so many normal people who are non monogamous , it normalizes it , yeah .

When people realize , oh , there's so many people who like kinky sex , it normalizes it . We , it just normalizes the fact that we all are human . So if you are , if people are within a doctor that they can communicate their specific needs , find another doctor , mm hmm , I mean , it's happened to me I've had , you know , doctors .

I'd be like , hey , I need an STI panel . And and my doctor's like , oh , I'm not sure how to even do that . I'm like , oh my God , but you're married , right ?

you're a female body , oh , it's fine , it cheated on you . I had somebody tell me that when they get called about their positive Chlamydia test , they were kind of like the doctor was like kind of rough on the man but was really sorry for the wife . You know , and she's like you know what ? It's fine , we're non monogamous , don't you know ?

Like the assumptions people make , so , yeah , so you know it's better to tell your part , your , your doctor , upfront . You're not monogamous , you want to be tested , you want to be tested regularly . If they could just do a standing order so you don't feel .

You know , you're not made to feel like , oh , I have to call every three months or six months and get my testing , just like , make it so it's normalized . This is who I am . I'm doing it consensually and it's part of my health care .

So taking care of our health , talking about sexuality , talking about pleasure , talking about what we need and what me , and even going into the dark places and talking about our trauma , is all reinventing love .

That's what I did too .

It's their body who cares . I don't think that has to do with hierarchy or couples privilege . I think couples privileges is like if telling one partner they can't fall in love when it becomes controlling , and if they're using condoms as a method of control , then you got to look at that . What's behind that and is that toxic or not .

But if you're using barriers with all everybody else except your primary or the one person , why that's fine to what you need to do , right . And so I think we can get carried away with oh , that's hierarchy or oh , that's couples privilege . I mean , we live in a world that is hierarchical . We live in a world that the couples privilege is everywhere .

We live in a world where white people have more privilege . I mean , let's just recognize that that exists and then let's be able to make our own choices and how we want to live our lives . I don't want to tell people they can't do that , because I don't want people to tell me that I have to conform to their standards . I'm not going to .

I choose not to be hierarchical , but it doesn't mean there are people that I spend more time with . There are people that I choose to , that I'm closer with . That's just natural .

So for me that's why I consider myself polyamorous , because it's really about here . It's really about my heart . Yeah .

So she's the only person that struggles with it and is not liking it . But I honestly have never , I think , because I've just set myself up to just be me , you know , and I just try to be me and I don't try to hide things , I don't try to throw them in people's faces .

But you know , when people ask me questions like , oh , how do you deal with jealousy ? Or like how do you , you know , what do you do about SCIs ? And I'll always answer them and I think I'm naturally a much more compulsive person because I really enjoyed love . I really do , I enjoy loving people .

So , like , I don't like getting jealous because it just gets in the way of that .

Now I've got a lot of work to do because those aren't traits that , like , make my life better in any way , and so , yes , I completely agree that , like , I don't want that to get in the way of love .

All of a sudden there's this boy taking away your friend , or you have a crush on a boy and he likes somebody else , and I decided that rather than be jealous , I'm going to be happy for them , like I'm going to be happy for my girlfriend that she has a boyfriend and I'm going to be happy for that boy I have a crush on , that he's liking somebody else

and that she likes him . I'm just going to be happy because if I really like them , I should be happy for them . So I don't know , I just kind of taught myself that at a really young age and it's actually made my life much easier as a polyamorous person .

People are not going to put me down because of that in the same way they would put somebody else down . And you know , I and it's such a weird thing to have , like you , go to school . I didn't go to school to have this privileged position . I actually just love what I do .

But I have , you know , being a woman , being a woman who is very selfless , like I'm really self assured , and I come off very confident . And then I have , and then I'm a doctor . So you know , and I , you know , I have a certain level of attractiveness . So , having all of that package together , people aren't going to come up and be nasty .

And I'm nice , I try to be nice to people . So you know , people aren't going to be , and if they do , they do it behind my back , and when they do that it's about them , it's not about me .

and empowering thing to do is recognize that it's not about them at all . It's about the person who's doing it . And if , instead of the shame or guilt , if you could turn it around and be compassionate for that person who's throwing it at you because they're suffering , because they're in a place of shame and fear , it's them , it's not you .

If you are non-monogamous and you're doing it because it's the right thing for you , and if you are living your life in the most authentic way with great pleasure we don't . We have one life in this body and so like , why not try to make it the best you can ?

There's so much suffering , we struggle so much , so if somebody is throwing it at you , it's because they're suffering .