Polywise - A Deeper Dive Into Navigating Open Relationships with Jessica Fern and David Cooley

Welcome back to another exciting episode of Nope we're Not Monogamous , and I'm super excited about today's conversation . It promises to be nothing short of enlightening and transformative . Today we're joined by two extraordinary guests , jessica Fern and David Cooley , whose journey through polyamory and their groundbreaking work in the field have inspired so many .

Jessica , you might recognize this name , jessica Fern , the author of Polysecure .

She brought us a profound understanding of attachment theory in the context of non-monogamous relationships and more recently , alongside her co-author and partner , david Cooley , they wrote Poly Wise , providing even more insights into the world of ethical , non-monogamy polyamory , essential non-monogamy . You know non-monogamy , but this episode's more than just about books .

It's about the stories , the experiences , the challenges and the triumphs that lie behind the pages . It's about diving deep into the psyche of relationships , emotional intelligence and navigating the intricate world of polyamory . So buckle up for a fascinating ride . You're going to enjoy this , I am sure of it . And real quick .

Before we dive in , I want to share something special with you . If you're enjoying the podcast and you want to be a more integral part of our community , why not consider becoming a member of the exclusive Patreon family for Nope we're Not Monogamous at patreoncom slash not monogamous .

By joining the Patreon community , you're not only keeping the show running , but you gain access to behind the scenes content , exclusive perks , and your support means the world to me and it's what keeps the podcast going strong . Enjoy , that's what we want . Amazing , awesome . Okay , jessica and David , welcome to Nope , we're Not Monogamous .

I am so so , so , so Thank you . You're welcome . I thank you . I'm so excited to chat with you guys . I've been a big fan of Jessica's work for a few years now . It was really cool . When I read PolySecure I was like it was so validating . I was like , oh my God , this is what I've been doing , Converting all this monogamous stuff to non-monogamy .

And now and now , reading PolyWise , I'm like , yes , so good . I'm excited to . I've already started putting some of your restorative justice framework into action with some of my clients , which I'm very excited about . So , anyways , welcome .

Like I wanted to know what people were actually doing before they gave you the advice . That was really good , but they didn't necessarily follow themselves , and so I just love to chat with people about their experiences and their lives and how they come to be giving this great information and advice . Right ?

So I would love to hear , yeah , Thank you I would just love to hear . It's like there's so much good information , but like what'd you really do , right , right . So I would love to hear about your guys's what non-monogamy means to you , your relationship philosophies , or what do you got going on .

We then got married , we had a son , we opened up , we were polyamorous together , we got divorced , we lived apart . We now live together and we are so right now , in this iteration , we live together , we are life partners , we're creative partners with this project . Being co-authors , we kind of live in this house .

We have a few acres , so we run a property together as well . Yeah , and it's a sweet spot and we have , you know , from we would be like polyintimates , and each of us have partners that live outside of the house that you know we have relationships with , that , we all have relationships with .

So it's it's a pretty nice moment for us and there's been a lot of ups and downs not easy moments , you know in between .

Like you can't be friends with your ex or you can't be business partners , or you can't , or if you get back together , it's it's now forever , Like there's so everything's so black and white and I love this like flow you guys have had and that you're sharing .

We were focused on a lot of things like gender equality and what does that mean ? Like , how do we deconstruct sort of some of the fixed gender roles that are typical ?

We also talked about the recognition that getting married for us wasn't necessarily a forever thing and that that felt good , actually , right , that there , you know , some of that was my avoidant stuff for sure .

But there was also a component , I think , that wisely knew that we would and we , I think we framed it this way in moments of we may grow to the point where being together in this marriage doesn't make sense anymore , and can that be okay ? And that scene is sort of a fatal thing .

One was , yeah , I've been dealing with a relatively severe form of autoimmunity since I was 19, . Right , and so I've had to compromise health , our whole relationship , and you know that's come and gone in different levels of intensity . And we had our son was born . He's now eight , right after he was born , which , you know , that's a gauntlet to go through .

That's a total initiation for any relationship , right . You know , it's like the kind of even if you are monogamous , to go through . Having your first child is just such a process that can rock the foundation of any relationship .

But then , right as that was happening , I got really , really sick , like almost died kind of sick , and that really put just insane amounts of pressure on our relationship , you know , and on Jessica in particular , yeah , on each of us for different reasons obviously , and that took a toll .

And so going through being new parents me almost dying and having to figure that out really left some significant scars . And then those things never really got integrated and repaired . And then we opened and it was just like all that shit . You know , even things before our son and before that issue with my health all came out once we opened .

How did , or how do you build emotional intelligence to get to the point where you're reconciling all these things ? Great , question . That makes sense , COVID brain .

And I think that's what I see in my relationships with my clients and their relationships , like if the importance and significance of our emotional intelligence right , it matters right , there's usually very little repair if there's low emotional intelligence . If there's low emotional intelligence , there's a lot of reactivity and defensiveness .

Like , how do you develop the ability to recognize what needs to be repaired and then repair it and then keep moving forward ?

And then one day I was just , it just blew the top and I was done , but he didn't know any of those things that were building and building and building . So he had no opportunity to repair because by the time I hit my thresholds I was done , right , and that was a huge wake up for me .

Actually , I was like , wow , right , because my emotional intelligence was pretty low in that relationship where it was like I didn't know how to communicate things that were bothering me , I didn't know how to speak up for the things that I was needing , and then by the time all of that came to the surface , there was no repairing it .

Those patterns were too long , like it was too much . And then I could see

for him he was just shocked , right , he was like whoa , what can't we fix these things ? And it's like they're not fixable . Right , I'm done , you know , like I can't deal with this anymore .

And so I really vowed to myself first I don't want to do this , I don't want to experience that and I don't want to do this to someone else right to like break someone's heart in this way . You know where they thought like we're good , we're in this amazing relationship and I'm actually not happy at all .

And so it was initially this very mechanical agreement I made . If I think of a like , if something bothers me once , okay , I can still keep it internally and I'll try to work with it Like is this really an issue ? How can I see this differently ? What can I maybe change ? And if I think about it twice , maybe I'll speak it up .

But if it happens a third time in my mind , I have to speak up about it . It was so simple and just like . That's the agreement . You know , if I've thought about it three times , even if it seems petty and like silly or like I'm worried that I'm too needy so that's a big part of emotional intelligence too is like our relationship with the inner critic .

You know that says we're too much , we're not enough and keeps us from being expressive in relationship .

Or or I just , you know then , just holding things in , holding things in and there's like this non congruence , right , like like they're . They think they're being chill and cool about things , but really internally they're they've got this struggle happening and that energy is there .

You know a lot of what the work that Jess and I wanted to do with the book is to really kind of zoom out to some of the macro causes of why people have challenges in their relationships . What are the socialized influences that we bring to our individual relationships ?

And for me , there's this real disconnect between our lived experience , ie our feelings , needs and wants , right in the capacity to own those and communicate those in relationship . And for me , this is this is huge , it's massive . How many people are struggling with this ?

And the stigma that exists around sort of naming your needs and wants and relationship in the way that we're really quick either internally for ourselves to downplay those or dismiss those , or right that the partners are sort of giving a shit for it and sort of treating our in treaties as problematic .

You're bad , you made me feel these right , and even if we can like logically go , well , that's not really what happened . It's almost like like we have to come up with this justification and then , and then you're fighting , and then you fight . Yeah , absolutely yeah .

wrong , there's this blame , back and forth , you know , or this enabling through rescuing , and so that would be a good like if you're on the drama triangle , often we all get on it , yeah , and so that's my emotional . But the emotional intelligence piece is oh , can I catch that ? I'm on it and do I have a way off it ?

Right , can I communicate more about my feelings and needs , or communicate in ways that aren't judging and blaming ?

You know , and I think that's one of the things that's really cool about non monogamy is that I feel like it's really in part inspiration and in part by necessity . It's a process through relationally , through which people are really pushed to develop emotional and relational intelligence .

I think that's one of the coolest things about it for me is that it's an invitation . It's a very powerful invitation to grow at that level .

But this intentional pausing to tune in and to like check in with my parts and ask

what's going on here , yeah , that feels like one of the most important things is sort of caring for the interior , basically .

Like I really see it as one of the single best ways to develop deeper levels of intimacy . And I think the deeper I go into exploring conflict and how to operate within its realm differently , I'm seeing like , wow , this is the single best way into levels of intimacy . I don't know if we can get any other way .

And so I'm really curious about what helps us do intimacy well Excuse me conflict well , like what allows us to step in and lean into conflict instead of sort of away from it and see it as something threatening .

And for me it's really like what allows us to stay curious when we're triggered Like for me that's been this really big sort of divide line in terms of skill level is like what actually , in the moment of trigger feeling your nervous system be activated allows you to stay present and engage with the person with whom you're in that trigger dance .

And for me that's a really big thing .

And so the things that allow me to do that curiosity , to stay curious with someone that I feel triggered by is sort of recognizing okay , what about my nervous system needs to get sued or tended to right sort of going back to that question of needs and wants , like what do I need which is really a self awareness thing in the moment to stay feeling safe that

I can give to myself and often it's a really simple thing , kind of sort of what you're alluding to , jesse , and it's just like tuning in and taking a breath and sort of calming my own sense of agitation or threat response , like yeah , I'm okay , I'm good , this is not a problem , this is uncomfortable , this sucks , this is bringing up a lot internally , but

I'm actually good and I'm really curious about what's going on for the other person here , and so doing that inner work to reduce my own threat response to sort of the situation at hand , so that I'm able to stay engaged in a place of curiosity about what's happening for the other person instead of making assumptions or just attacking or shutting down completely , has

been really some of the most important work for me .

You know , often these are people are not , these are strangers , so they don't even have the incentive of being family , necessarily right , or even friends , and the stakes can be very , very high in those circumstances .

And so , time after time , sitting in these tension filled circles , it was really a great opportunity for me to start really observing my own nervous system in response to other people's tension Right , and in some of those circles people are rubs Like I've had clients scream at my face Right and it's like I have the clarity that it's not about me .

They're activated because what's happening in the space ? But it's really this amazing opportunity like , okay , interesting , this is happening right now . What's my default sort of instinctual response and how much power do I have to negotiate that and do something different ? That's potentially counterintuitive in this moment .

So that really was a massive eye opener in terms of what's possible for regulation in a tension filled space and it makes me think about martial artists or something , and it's like you learn how to really deal with your body's instinctive or fight or flight responses .

One of my favorite quotes is from I don't remember who said it , but I think somebody talking about Mike Tyson . Right , it's like you can step into the ring with a plan , but all that goes to like what your plan looks like after you get punched in the face is a whole different game , right , and I love that idea , that image , yeah .

So that feels like a relational intelligence piece as well of what's going on in the interior of my loved one that doesn't look very loving towards me right now . Yeah , yeah .

And I think that's a really important thing that practitioners should be offering clients is what's your litmus test for knowing whether or not you're blended with a part or not ? And I remember you saying , jess , if you can be curious , then you've still got access , then you're still connected to your mature adult self .

In that moment I'm like that's absolutely right . I think that is sort of the single best piece of reflection that someone could have to know whether or not they're really where they are in themselves in any given situation , especially attention-filled one .

I can't remember how painful it was , so I don't know if there's any of that happening like after the fact , you know , but I do think overall it was fun . Of course there's moments where it's just hard to like .

You know there's deadlines and all of that kind of stuff , but I think we really enjoyed the creative and intellectual process of flushing out and , you know , unpacking things together and we have a good groove of like what our strengths are . So usually like I'm writing ahead and then Dave's coming in and maybe refining or editing or

adding , yeah , and then for his chapter we had to flip which . That was different .

was a lot of fun , you know , in terms of the exchange of ideas , and I think we've gotten to a really good place where it just feels easy to lean into each other's advice or critiques .

You know , I remember we've done projects in the past writing projects and there were sort of some starts and fits and bumping of egos , not so much but to a certain degree Whereas with this book it feels like we've gotten to a really cool place and I just never felt that , you know , I never felt like we were ever tussling over anything .

I remember some , you know , moments where we're having to debate whether or not something that's been written needs to get cut or augmented or changed , and it just felt , you know , there's so much trust for Jessica's sensibility , creatively and intellectually . It's just like , yeah , okay , true that , like the way that you're explaining that and contextualizing that .

That makes sense . Okay , yeah , let's cut it . You know , instead of feeling like , no , that's my baby , you know , I think it probably also helps that you wrote an incredibly successful book on your own already , but there's definitely credence to give .

But I think in general , even if that wasn't the case , I think , you know , just trusting each other's sensibility creatively is really huge .

I skimmed over the PDF and now I'm listening to the audio book and I just love hearing the like like here's Jessica Ferns voice , who I've been listening to for a couple of years , right , and then hi , it's David here .

He pops in with his very , like , very vulnerable moments that I so , so , so appreciate , Like going back and going OK , I can look back now and go here's what happened . And now I can look at it and go , oh , oh , I see it .

Just , I love that because it's I want everyone to read it , because I'm like , look , I can see my clients and I can see my partners in so many of these things . I'm like , oh , look , this guy did this . And like , they , they , they , they look back and go this is what I should have done . Yeah , I love it .

disproportionate amount of women coming to the work and really being the initiators in relationship , and we really wanted to set an example for men to lean in right and really see a masculine voice taking accountability and acknowledging some of these things that can be really hard to do .

This level of vulnerability that I think is hard for a lot of men for a lot of reasons . You know , particularly the socialization of what it . You know what it means to be a man or masculine these days , and so it felt important to do that and to make my kind of .

You know , I become the fall guy in some ways , but I think it was important to do and it's authentic in terms of you know , the stories that were recounting . Yeah , it's really beautiful .

But there were moments in writing the book where , because we were telling our story and even though it was maybe a story that we knew , it's so different to write it out and moments where I think we both got even more healing about our past than , like , I maybe didn't even think , oh , I need this .

But in the process of us writing or then talking through , or there might have been one or two moments where we're like I don't think it happened that way and we had to , like hash it out and realize what , what is the coherent narrative here ? That there was like a deeper healing around our past too .

I had several male clients recently say to me after listening to the book , or reading the book you know , especially in the in the last chapter , there's a very open and descriptive expose on just the challenges that I faced , like how hard some of the moments became for me and how low it got for me , kind of my dark night of the soul with opening the

relationship , and they're like them talking about feeling seen in a way that was so healing , was really validating for me and really moving . And I remember , you know , on working on that piece , like I was crying , like while writing that , like openly weeping , reliving some of that and it was so good it was . I didn't , I was .

I was actually surprised by that and have never had that experience in writing something . Usually it's a much more cerebral experience and so there's something sort of very healing for me to be able to connect that much somatic and emotional experience into writing , and so I love that . I really feel grateful for that .

I love it . What ? And that's my listeners , you must go read the book . It makes all our work easier .

And , yeah , what I see is that it's , it's both .

It's not one or the other is that many people truly feel this to be how they're oriented , and there's a lot of negative consequences to not living out that orientation .

Same thing on the other end of the spectrum people feel more wired for monogamy , and that feels like an orientation to them , and I think it's important that we allow that right , that that's valid , and then for many people it is it's a choice that they can go in and out of . They choose . Sometimes .

They don't choose other times , or they wouldn't have chosen it all , unless they're . It was only because their partner wanted to open up , or their partner felt that they were orientation , and then they step into it as a lifestyle and they're like okay , I can , I can do this , even if it's not easy sometimes .

Yeah , but I think this has its larger roots , this question and sort of this debate that our identities aren't valid unless they are not a choice . And it's like why is that the case , right ? Like why can't my identity be completely valid and even legally valid , right , even if it's twice , right , right ?

We inherit it , the structure , the infrastructure of the identity , from where we're from , but then that at some point there is the opportunity to change all that . I think one of the most fascinating things about this question for me is , even along this spectrum that we're naming you can change A person , a person who was identifying as I am .

Polybiorientation can switch . I've seen it right For years . They're like this is my reality , I was born this way , and then that's changed . And then on the other side , I've seen the other flip , where someone was like drug kicking and screaming into polyamory because of a partner , and then now they're like this is who I am . It could not be another way .

I mean , statistically , that's what we would say is most people espouse monogamy and don't actually practice it , right ? Or many people say that they're straight and their behaviors are far from straight behaviors . Yeah , yeah , that is so real . Yeah . So what's our actual behaviors ? What is our actual lived experience ?

And then , how do we identify and how congruent or not are those things ?

He was a linguistic specialist in particular , but he used that in the context of politics and helping people understand the ways that metaphors and language are used to really control sort of the movement of public decision , and so one of the things that I really loved was the ways in which he helped people understand that the metaphors that they're using to describe

a situation are really setting a template by which action then sort of naturally flows as a consequence .

And , by extension , one of the things that I do with clients is really try to get people to understand that there's a literal nervous system consequence of the metaphors that you use , and so if we think of something as a battle and we start using a battle or a fight , conflict , sort of metaphor for what's happening , your nervous system is going to respond and

set itself up for that kind of experience , right , and so it was interesting to think about sort of and he was sort of comparing sort of classic definitions or ways of thinking about life like in the West versus the East .

Right , I'm using those terms very , very generally , but East and West but in the West is like we love combat narratives right , everything's hard , everything's a challenge , everything you're fighting against . Right , the hero's journey you're conquering some evil . Right , there's that good and evil binary that really is embedded in so much of our mythology in the West .

And so he's talking about older . He's talking about older societies like India , where they're sort of move beyond that kind of binary in terms of good and bad . And there's more . You hear people talking about life as a dance and just think about , like , what does that feel like to think about life as a battle versus a dance ?

What does it mean to show up to a battle versus a dance ? And how does your nervous system , literally , what's your somatic experience in relationship to those metaphors ? And so I think , yeah , what is I like to say ? Conflict ? Conflict is an invitation . It's not a battle , it's an invitation to deeper intimacy .

I'm like well , okay , like it's not baking , it's not a science , it's not , you know , it's not chemical reactions where you have to have the exact ingredients . It's more like making stone soup , where all the partners bring whatever they have on hand and you all throw it in a pot and see what you get , and then somebody maybe add some salt and some .

You know you get a little coaching or therapy and that's a little basil , like you just kind of see what you need after you throw everything in the pot , but the cooking metaphor feels really nice .

Because so much of what people are doing , especially moving from , you know , a monogamous paradigm to a non-monogamous paradigm , is like just makes your brain kind of boil , Like trying to figure out a math equation Like what am I doing ? What am I supposed to do ? What's the right answer ?

I guess I'll just go do that and be honest , because that seems like the right thing to do . I didn't know anyone who is ethically non monogamous . That just wasn't a thing . And then , a few months later , I met my second husband and fell in love and and he was like you're the one . And I was like , no , I'm not .

He's like no , no , no , also , I'm , I'm polyamorous , I'm dating this couple , I have this long term partner . And I was like , wait , what ? Hmm , how do I do this ? So I was like here's what I wanted , right , to go and go and be free and and have autonomy and adventure .

But also I knew that I was very jealous and possessive and like those traits didn't serve me in any positive way . So I knew I was going to have to tackle those . So there was like this real struggle between like , here's what I want .

I can see where I want to be , like the other side of that river , and yet here I am , like , constantly falling in the water

, trying to step across with jealousy . And so it took a lot of , you know , healing attachment wounds , healing past relationship wounds .

Lots of breathwork , lots of masturbation , you know , self love and just really , I think the most important thing for me was holding on to my the North Star , like my vision , like what it was that I wanted , where it was , I wanted to be , even though my body was like , no , you're dying and everybody is out to get you and nobody loves you and everybody hates

you . It was like , but I know that it's possible to get there , so I'm just going to keep doing , you know , just going to keep journaling and keep doing breathwork and keep loving myself .

And it took a couple of years , you know , and we were very actively non monogamous along the way , but , like , I have a couple of blog posts where I talk about how I cried every day for a year , like , like literally , because it was really hard but also so worth it . But , yeah , jealousy . Short answer .

It was a little bit ethereal because it wasn't an exact desire , but it was the opposite of what I had had before , right , like it was autonomy and freedom and , and it's so easy to fall into , like really codependent patterns and lots of people pleasing and lots of abandoning my own needs and my own desires and like just tripping over my own boundaries and ,

like you know , basically not having any for love . And so it was really really important to me to to maintain my , my own desires and autonomy and and sense of self in relationships . So , was that like North Star ?

I'm I now identify as polyamorous , but at the time , the first few years , I was like , nah , I don't think that's real , I can't fall in love with multiple people . But he was very polyamorous , he was .

I mean , I went through him , him going through NRE multiple , multiple times , him going through breakups , like all of that , and I was just like , oh , that seems like too much until I and so like I wouldn't go and like date , I would have sex with people , but I didn't have like emotional dating with people because I couldn't , I don't , don't , didn't feel like

I had the , the energetic output or the energy available to me to manage my emotions around what he was doing , around feeling jealous and insecure , and also manage my feelings of like guilt . And am I doing something wrong or am I not being loving if I'm going out and falling in love with people ? Right , like I couldn't do both of those at the same time .

I had to deal with one at a time , and so it was probably four years that we had been together and open , five years , six years before I actually like went and fell in love and had another relationship .

And then he was on the other side now dealing with something new for him of me being polyamorous fully in in in what I was actually doing , rather than just in name . So so , yeah , it was very much like here's what I want . I have to . I have to figure out how to be okay with you having it so that I can then have it , yeah .

Right , I was like , okay , here's where I'm at here . This is within our agreements , this is , you know , like we're good here , but I'm gonna stay right here and let you have your feelings , his feelings being this raging river all around me working their way through .

And I was like I'm just gonna stay right here until it calms down before I make any moves or changes or go and do something else . Right , it was like I'm a rock , we've agreed that everything here is good and you're having all of your feelings , and I'd let him work those out before I moved on to the next .

Okay , now I'm going on another date or any progression of a relationship . Right , it was like , okay , let's work this out first , but you have your feelings , because I know how they feel .

Right , because that's what I had needed . It was time to integrate , time to feel calm again .

Without the experience of going through your own work , you would have just okay , you're hurt , this is hurting you , I'm out , right .

It's kind of the two extremes that I see is like people either do that , they cave in and like my needs , I'll just negate them and let them go so you don't hurt , or they're like sorry , I'm doing me , and you're just gonna have to kind of figure this out as we get dragged through the mud together right Versus integration .

What you're talking about is integration , and that's one of my favorite words around these kinds of experiences with new partners is can we slow down , let our partners feel what they need to feel , have what they need to have and integrate and how just that facilitates moving forward in a different way ?

But I know that on the other side of this , it's worth moving slow , it's worth maintaining stability , and if I am experiencing NRE with someone who can't tolerate me moving slowly , then we're not compatible .

But with all of this strength it just won't be as fricking fast right , but it will be solid , you know , and it will be there , and how much relationship destruction happens from going too fast .

And it's like we have to like recalibrate , then what is the goal ? And so that's what I was really asking about what's that North Star , what's the goal ? You know , and that clarity , I think , is really powerful .

Thank you , thank you , yeah , so I've been really excited for this and I am loving PolyWise . It's so good , so good . Thank you , If people want to find you , how can they find you ?