Intimacy and Non-Monogamy: Embracing Embodied Choices, Ep. 44

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Hey, I'm Ellecia,
your non-monogamous relationship coach.

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Welcome to the podcast where my friends
and I chat about our relationships.

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Enthusiastic non-monogamy,
polyamory, swinging, kink, and our lives.

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You'll get a candid peek into
what makes it worth it to live life

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outside the box.

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And in case you're still wondering,
nope, we’re not monogamous.

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Hello. Hello.

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Hello.

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After 28 years of pure monogamy, my guest
today dove into a sexuality community

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to explore something different during
what one might call a midlife crisis,

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only to find herself
with a primary relationship

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that created a load of freedom

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and challenged her to know the difference
between her edges and her boundaries.

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My guest today is Kim Holden.

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She's an intimacy and relationship
coach and a breast cancer survivor

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who's dedicated to helping other survivors
renew their joy through connection

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to their body,
mind and soul in a new and meaningful way.

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She also guides singles and couples
to untangle the feelings of unworthiness,

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shame and invisibility to connect

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with their power and their confidence
and their unique flavors.

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And Kim and I today are chatting

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about exploring sexuality
and relationship dynamics.

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After you've been through a divorce
and practicing tools

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to recognize your own personal

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yes and your own personal no
when you're making decisions and examining

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the difference between your edges
and your boundaries in relationships.

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There's so much good stuff here.

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I hope you enjoy.

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So I'm super glad you're here.

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Thank you for making time
to come and chat with me.

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Yeah, Thank you.

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It's a it's a stretch for me to be on
video, so I'm looking forward to talking.

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Oh. Oh, I love pushing people's edges,
but not their boundaries.

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Yeah.

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There's such a difference.

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Excuse me.

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So I would love to ask you

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a few questions about yourself and your

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your experiences.

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And I'd also like to hear about your work
because, well, like we were talking about

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before I hit record, there's
some pretty cool things happening there.

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And some of the clients that you've worked
with and how you've helped them.

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So first, why don't I ask you what your

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what your experience is with non-monogamy?

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I was in a relationship
that ended up being marriage

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related for almost 28 years.

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Pure monogamy.

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And when that closed and ended,

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I realized that I wanted something
different.

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And, you know, when you're coming off
of a divorce, you're not sure if that is.

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You just want to rebel or you really are
suited for something different.

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So I dove right into a sexuality community

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and explored on my own

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and ended up finding people and really,
you know, relationships and partners

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that were completely new and and exciting.

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It really woke me up.

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So it was a midlife crisis,
but in a great, awesome way.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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So and, and I, you know, continued
to grow and develop from there.

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We've we've done everything from,
Oh, my gosh, this is stressful.

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Pulling it

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back into monogamy until we're clear

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to touch related things
to emotionally related things

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to sexually thing sexually related things.

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So I feel like I've done a good job

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of exploring personally,
and I am so grateful to be

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in a relationship, a primary relationship
that creates freedom.

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Freedom to choose. Freedom to communicate.

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Freedom to complain.

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Freedom to say when I'm scared and freedom
to listen to the same.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Oh, I love that so much.

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I mean, that's kind of a whole, like,

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regardless of the structure
of the relationship, that's kind of I feel

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like the whole point of relationships
is to have really good friendships.

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Uh huh. Right.

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Well, relating, relationship, relating,

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you know, And even in monogamy,
you know, I,

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I think it's important
that and I experienced this in my own,

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um, my own personal
and then professionally, you know,

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being able to talk about erotic fantasies
or desires or.

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Oh, my gosh, did you see that?

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Like, that was totally turned me on.

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And being able to talk about it
and not act on it is still,

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um, a part of that growth cycle.

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And being able to,
to be connected to your partner

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even when something else turns you on
and you can share it.

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Yeah, I think that's important.

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It really is.

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It's one of the things I tell people often
who come to me who are like

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they're having

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the conversations
around opening their relationship or,

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you know, they're starting down that path

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and it's like they forget that.

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And I think a lot of us do this.

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We get excited about a thing
and we just want to do it.

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You know,
we want Christmas morning to be here

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and forget about all the parties
beforehand.

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And I'm like, you can actually just
just have the conversations,

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have all the conversations
or do the flirting part and nothing else

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and see how you feel like you can do
just a little bit of it.

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You don't have to go straight to

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orgies.

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Right?

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And you might not ever go straight
to the orgy, I mean.

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Exactly.

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Well, it's like you mentioned right

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when we started, there's a difference
between an edge and a boundary.

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And I think, you know, to sort of slip
into the professional piece of me,

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um, that's, um, I as an intimacy coach,
I talk a lot and work

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with couples
a lot on connection and communication

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because they're like,
Oh, are you a sex coach?

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And I was like, Yeah, I could be.

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But if you have this peice down,
the sex part will be easier.

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You might even find it on your own.

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Um, but the edge might be flirting.

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It might

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be platonic dating, you know,
it could be so many things.

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And we think that, oh,
if you're open or you're non-monogamous,

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it means that you're having sex
with all the people that you like.

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You know, it's like, Oh.

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No, not, not really.

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Yeah.

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That's fun. I love it.

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I love it. Um.

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I love that you are talking about

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communication and connection.

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That's what you said, right?

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Communication and connection.
Yeah. Yeah, That's my thing.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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The one that I add to that that I think is
really important is clarity.

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I agree.

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Yeah.

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That's
what I'm always with clients and like,

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clarity, connection and communication.

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You get those down and like everything
else will, will work itself out.

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Uh huh. Yeah, you're right.

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The clarity, I mean, there's
such a difference in saying

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I want to go out on a date period.

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Versus.

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I want to go out on a date with and when.

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And these are the things I anticipate
and this is what I'm feeling.

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And how are you with that?

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Like,
what do you need to be okay with that?

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Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And also, here's.

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Here's what I'm hoping to get out of it.

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Like, Yeah.

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The why Oh, right.

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Yeah.

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You know, I've been in.

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I've been in that spot
where I've been, uh,

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there's been an argument
or a disconnection of some sort,

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and, you know, like, Oh, well,
can I pull this card?

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Maybe I'll just go out
and it doesn't feel as good

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to to use that card
when I don't feel good.

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Mm hmm.

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It doesn't feel good
to my primary partner.

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It doesn't feel good to the person
I'm connecting with.

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And it definitely doesn't make me feel
better.

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My why wasn't to feel good.

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It was to to be resentful or hurt or angry
or to get back at something.

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You know, it took me a little while to.

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To realize that was what was happening.

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Yeah. Yeah. To recognize that.

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What do you think?

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What do you think?

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Helped, like.

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Like how.

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How did you find that.

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Coming back to feeling good?

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You know, it's. I have, um.

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I have a tool called Remember to Remember.

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And it's five five things,
and I keep mine on my phone,

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and they feel pretty much
they stay the same.

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But I always evaluate and see.

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So it's can I feel good in myself

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before I connect with just the, you know,
going out to lunch with a girlfriend

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or having a conversation or having that,
you know, extra date or whatever?

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Um, do I have I done the work to make sure
that I'm clear and that I feel good?

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And when I feel good,
I mean, I'm in my body.

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I'm not harboring anger or resentment.

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I'm not hiding anything, you know?

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And some of those things.

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Remember to remember who you are
is what I call it.

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But remember to remember is for me, are
have I exercised, have I been outside?

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Have I played with animals or plants?

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Have I listened, made or participated
in music in some way almost all the time?

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If I do want
or any combination of those things,

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I feel better.

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Oh, that's so good.

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That is so good.

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Like, like what is your what soothes you?

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What brings you back into your body
and out of your head and over thinking.

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And I always I always say
we're just giant toddlers, right?

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We need. Have you slept?

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Have you. Eaten?

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Are you ill?

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Do you need cuddles?

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Like what are your big
human needs that need to happen

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so you can process
your emotional needs? Yes.

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And how many of us don't?

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I mean, it's a practice
and a skill to realize, Oh, actually,

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I just need somebody to hug me.

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Or, you know,
can we do the dishes together?

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and, you know, play Pinky in the water,
like, whatever it is, Like

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the realization that that's what I need

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was a was a big aha moment for me.

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Yeah. Oh, that's so good.

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I love keeping a list
like that on your phone.

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That's really good.

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I always recommend like,
like what are your,

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what's your plan
Like your partner is going on a date

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and you know you're going to have feelings
about it. What's your plan?

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You're just going to sit and watch movies
and be sad or what are you going to do?

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That's right.

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Yeah.

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My very first teacher was like,
you know, if if partner is going out,

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you get something to do
that feels good to you.

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This is not a time to be texting.

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This is not a time to be crying.

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Yeah,
you do something that feels good to you.

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Yeah. Yeah, totally.

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Totally.

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I also I love the

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like, being able to ask for what you need.

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I remember
my partner often will say, well, like.

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Like maybe I'll be making dinner
and he'll say, Yeah, what can I help you?

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And I'm thinking,
That's way too much work.

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Like just to give you a list of things
that need to be done.

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I don't know. I can't think of that.

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And I finally start going, actually,
if you just sat in here,

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like, sit in the kitchen and talk to me
while I'm doing this, like,

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I'll be so much happier.

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Yeah.

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Just finding those solutions.

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Uh huh, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I agree.

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I love it. Um,

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you were talking about,

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like, feeling good or feeling better, and

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I wonder how.

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How can people

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like, like when you're in it,
when you aren't

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feeling good, it's
hard to remember that you ever did.

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Yes. Right.

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Like it's hard to remember that
anything was ever good.

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So how do you find finding, like,
recognize

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when that shift is happening

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or how to make that shift happen?

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Um, mine.

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I'm pretty.

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I'm a Scorpio, so I'm like.

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Me too!

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Happy Birthday. Thank you.

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Oh, but I it's pretty.

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It's pretty plain and out
front and evident.

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When I'm not doing well,
I don't hide anything.

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You can, you can see it. You can feel it.

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Um, I have learned to also besides
to remember, to remembers

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and you know, like even a side
note with that,

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my partner is like, have you gone outside
and played in the dirt today?

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Because he knows if

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I'm outside
and I'm doing something in nature

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that I will come back in 30 minutes later
in a much better state of mind.

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But I also have a couple of,
um, goddess friends,

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like women who are in my tribe
that we know each other

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and I can message and go,

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you know,

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I think the world's going to shit
right now and I'm in the middle of it and,

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and they'll say, Tell me,
what are you feeling?

00:13:40:16 - 00:13:42:17
You know, so they don't try to fix it.

00:13:42:17 - 00:13:46:05
They just hop right in there and witness
until I go, Oh, oh, right.

00:13:46:19 - 00:13:51:00
Like the sky is blue, the grass is green,
Oh, this is what's happening.

00:13:51:00 - 00:13:53:02
And then they'll be able to say,
What do you need?

00:13:53:14 - 00:13:57:23
I think that's important, having community
around and, and cultivating that,

00:13:58:13 - 00:14:01:06
um, so my list, um,

00:14:01:22 - 00:14:05:17
and I'm not one to rest
when I need it, so I'm

00:14:06:08 - 00:14:09:02
stopping and having a cup of tea

00:14:09:08 - 00:14:14:01
or sitting in the hammock outside,
um, sitting at the piano.

00:14:14:01 - 00:14:16:12
I love to play some things like that.

00:14:16:12 - 00:14:18:08
That doesn't take long.

00:14:18:08 - 00:14:20:19
I mean, it's always like, Oh,
I'm too busy, I'm too busy,

00:14:21:03 - 00:14:25:11
but really, it only takes about ten
or 15 minutes to begin the shift.

00:14:26:02 - 00:14:28:21
Yeah, that's so good. Mm.

00:14:28:21 - 00:14:31:21
I love that.

00:14:31:21 - 00:14:34:13
Before we hit
record, we were talking about

00:14:36:06 - 00:14:38:10
what happens when

00:14:38:10 - 00:14:40:22
one partner

00:14:40:22 - 00:14:43:13
wants to open a relationship
and the other one isn't so sure.

00:14:43:13 - 00:14:46:01
And you, you had some really good things
to say about that.

00:14:46:01 - 00:14:50:23
And so now that we're recording,

00:14:50:23 - 00:14:53:21
I'm curious
how you help people navigate that.

00:14:54:19 - 00:14:58:02
Uh, it's, it's a tough one, right? Mhm.

00:14:58:09 - 00:15:00:10
And it's pretty common.

00:15:00:10 - 00:15:04:01
Um, if we were all cookie cutters
it would, this would not be hard.

00:15:04:13 - 00:15:09:07
Um, I think the number one thing is
that I've noticed

00:15:09:07 - 00:15:12:12
is that people don't know how

00:15:12:12 - 00:15:15:04
to recognize or feel or sense

00:15:15:19 - 00:15:20:20
that they are a yes
or a no to something, a back to the

00:15:21:03 - 00:15:24:05
the edge or the boundary, you know,
is this a hard no.

00:15:24:16 - 00:15:28:15
And, and it's okay
if it is, let's look and see why.

00:15:28:15 - 00:15:30:05
Where did this come from?

00:15:30:05 - 00:15:32:15
Is this you know, is this something that

00:15:32:15 - 00:15:36:13
and general generationally
been handed down?

00:15:36:14 - 00:15:40:07
You know, was this something
that was religiously embedded

00:15:40:10 - 00:15:43:00
into your thinking and your belief system,

00:15:43:09 - 00:15:46:13
or is this something
that just absolutely won't work for you?

00:15:47:00 - 00:15:51:01
Um, but being able to know why,
knowing what your hard no is

00:15:51:08 - 00:15:54:19
and then investigating and staying curious
rather than judgmental

00:15:55:08 - 00:15:57:23
about why that's there.

00:15:58:07 - 00:16:02:15
Um, and being in your body,

00:16:03:01 - 00:16:07:11
you know, I love to use the word embodied,
but the general public

00:16:07:11 - 00:16:10:15
sometimes doesn't quite know
it as the same way I do.

00:16:10:24 - 00:16:15:08
And when someone is what I call triggered
and, you know,

00:16:15:08 - 00:16:19:05
the part of the brain that makes sensical
decisions is not working.

00:16:19:05 - 00:16:21:20
Um, things like where are you?

00:16:22:11 - 00:16:24:05
What do you have on?

00:16:24:05 - 00:16:26:01
When was the last time you ate?

00:16:26:01 - 00:16:28:04
What color's the wall?

00:16:28:04 - 00:16:29:16
Where are your feet?

00:16:29:16 - 00:16:34:16
Just things like that
can usually start to bring them back in.

00:16:36:01 - 00:16:36:23
Another one I

00:16:36:23 - 00:16:40:00
love is I do these, um, tantric

00:16:40:04 - 00:16:44:07
learning circle events where I just share
different little tantric tools.

00:16:44:07 - 00:16:45:13
Don't only we practice.

00:16:45:13 - 00:16:46:14
And then by the end of the night,

00:16:46:14 - 00:16:50:03
2 hours, we we string them together
to create experiences.

00:16:50:15 - 00:16:53:18
But one of the ways is closing your eyes

00:16:53:18 - 00:16:57:18
and imagining, um, we've done it
a couple of different ways.

00:16:57:18 - 00:16:59:23
One is imagining a first kiss

00:17:01:18 - 00:17:02:17
did you want it.

00:17:02:17 - 00:17:05:14
Or did you not?

00:17:05:14 - 00:17:09:05
And then noticing what you,
if you can remember it and recall

00:17:09:07 - 00:17:14:00
where you were, what you were wearing,
um, how did it feel?

00:17:14:12 - 00:17:16:15
What did you think about it afterwards?

00:17:16:15 - 00:17:18:15
You know, then you get a yes and a no.

00:17:19:10 - 00:17:23:15
Another one is a food that you dislike
and a food that you like

00:17:24:02 - 00:17:27:11
and sort of meditating and going
through the food that you dislike

00:17:27:11 - 00:17:30:10
and noticing what you feel in your body,

00:17:31:01 - 00:17:34:10
your thoughts, your respiration,

00:17:34:10 - 00:17:38:10
you know, all of that, um, can indicate
you're leaning towards it yet.

00:17:38:15 - 00:17:42:00
And then that would be the no
and then something that you love.

00:17:42:07 - 00:17:43:21
So for me, it's tiramisu.

00:17:43:21 - 00:17:47:02
I love tiramisu. Mine’s creme brulee.

00:17:48:06 - 00:17:49:23
Oh, we're Close.

00:17:50:20 - 00:17:53:16
But, you know,
I can close my eyes and, you know,

00:17:53:18 - 00:17:55:21
just take myself through that journey of

00:17:55:21 - 00:18:00:05
I see the coffee on the bottom
and it's soaking through the cake

00:18:00:18 - 00:18:04:19
and I can see and my mouth starts to water
and I can see

00:18:05:06 - 00:18:07:24
the cream is not too thick
and not too runny.

00:18:08:08 - 00:18:12:22
And the first taste says, oh, my gosh,
they use the perfect amount of sugar

00:18:12:22 - 00:18:14:12
and I'm drooling.

00:18:14:12 - 00:18:16:14
And so then that's my yes.

00:18:16:23 - 00:18:21:17
And so then being able to have a baseline
for what your body does when you're a yes

00:18:21:17 - 00:18:24:20
and no
so that you can begin to notice that

00:18:24:20 - 00:18:27:05
in other situations.

00:18:28:10 - 00:18:32:04
So long answer,
But I think it's good practice.

00:18:32:04 - 00:18:33:07
I think having ways

00:18:33:07 - 00:18:37:07
to use tools in different ways
until you find the one that suits you

00:18:38:13 - 00:18:39:12
is important.

00:18:39:12 - 00:18:44:06
Um, another one I love to use
is if you stand up and close your eyes

00:18:44:06 - 00:18:47:10
and you say, Um,
I know where I learned this.

00:18:47:18 - 00:18:50:07
My name is, my name is Charlie.

00:18:51:05 - 00:18:54:04
And your body will either
immediately, slightly

00:18:54:04 - 00:18:57:01
lean forward or backwards,
and then you take it out.

00:18:57:05 - 00:18:58:13
Close your eyes.

00:18:58:13 - 00:19:02:00
My name is Ken. Mm.

00:19:02:00 - 00:19:05:05
And if your body's clear, you'll get a
yes or no.

00:19:05:15 - 00:19:06:21
Yeah, right.

00:19:06:21 - 00:19:08:21
And then, you know,
you can make a decision.

00:19:08:21 - 00:19:09:11
Uh huh.

00:19:09:11 - 00:19:10:06
I love that.

00:19:10:06 - 00:19:14:02
I love that first of all,
you just made tiramisu super fucking sexy.

00:19:14:11 - 00:19:17:13
So thank you for that.

00:19:17:13 - 00:19:21:04
Um, yeah, that embodied. Yes or no?

00:19:21:05 - 00:19:22:16
I learned a couple.

00:19:22:16 - 00:19:25:02
I am notoriously in my head

00:19:25:11 - 00:19:29:10
and a friend of mine
was I went to an intuition

00:19:30:17 - 00:19:33:18
weekend retreat a few years ago
and she was like, Fuck me.

00:19:34:01 - 00:19:35:15
Like, have no idea what's happening.

00:19:35:15 - 00:19:38:02
You've no idea what's happening,
like, below your neck, right?

00:19:38:02 - 00:19:41:05
And so the one I like, she we were doing
lots of different things and she goes,

00:19:41:05 - 00:19:44:04
okay, here she handed me a quarter, right?

00:19:44:05 - 00:19:44:17
Yeah.

00:19:44:17 - 00:19:49:04
And she was like,
she had me flip a quarter,

00:19:49:10 - 00:19:51:10
flip a coin to make a decision.

00:19:52:09 - 00:19:55:19
And she's like, just like
I have a question, like any decision.

00:19:55:19 - 00:20:00:03
I'm going to eat sushi tonight
or tacos tonight

00:20:00:19 - 00:20:05:23
and flip a coin and pay attention
to how I felt like in my body, in my guts.

00:20:05:24 - 00:20:06:11
Right.

00:20:06:11 - 00:20:09:08
And for me,
it's like very like low in my belly where

00:20:09:08 - 00:20:12:10
I feel it and,

00:20:12:14 - 00:20:14:18
you know, and I if I got heads four

00:20:14:18 - 00:20:17:18
for sushi and that's what it landed on.

00:20:17:18 - 00:20:22:13
And I had this like a feeling,
Oh that's what my no feels like.

00:20:22:13 - 00:20:25:02
And it doesn't matter
what the quarter chose it.

00:20:25:06 - 00:20:28:03
I was able to pay attention to my body
and go, Oh,

00:20:28:07 - 00:20:32:15
that's what I really want and really start
making decisions that way.

00:20:32:15 - 00:20:38:01
Like it took a lot of practice
doing that. Yes.

00:20:38:06 - 00:20:41:03
Yeah, I love and there's so many like you
said, like you said,

00:20:41:03 - 00:20:44:00
I mean, we could talk to ten people
and get ten different ways to.

00:20:44:00 - 00:20:47:05
I love that I think that's another benefit
of having community

00:20:47:10 - 00:20:50:07
and these little practice
events on a regular basis.

00:20:50:23 - 00:20:55:19
Um, the other thing that, that almost
always comes up when couples are trying

00:20:55:19 - 00:20:59:14
to make this decision
or investigate or get curious about it,

00:21:00:23 - 00:21:03:09
is that 0 to 60

00:21:03:23 - 00:21:07:16
we are, we are monogamous
and we're having sex with everybody.

00:21:07:16 - 00:21:11:08
We see like, you know,
it's from one extreme to the other

00:21:11:15 - 00:21:15:09
and not being able to slow down
enough to, um,

00:21:15:17 - 00:21:18:00
to break it into bite sized pieces.

00:21:18:14 - 00:21:19:21
Yeah. Wow.

00:21:19:21 - 00:21:23:18
Can we just go people watch and talk
about what we find attractive

00:21:23:18 - 00:21:27:16
and other people, strangers.

00:21:27:16 - 00:21:30:11
I think I want to go out

00:21:30:11 - 00:21:32:10
and watch a ballgame

00:21:32:10 - 00:21:35:06
with a friend
just to see what happens and.

00:21:35:18 - 00:21:37:00
And being able to break it down.

00:21:37:00 - 00:21:40:11
Um, if the chance to hold their hand
feels good.

00:21:40:17 - 00:21:43:08
Um, I want to do that.

00:21:43:08 - 00:21:45:20
Like, you know, there's just so many ways

00:21:45:20 - 00:21:48:01
that you can have bite sized

00:21:48:20 - 00:21:51:11
nuggets to begin to explore

00:21:52:01 - 00:21:53:02
and then come back

00:21:53:02 - 00:21:56:19
and, you know, the biggest,
the other biggest thing is we've never

00:21:56:20 - 00:21:59:24
this has always been compared to cheating,

00:21:59:24 - 00:22:02:07
which I don't like that word at all.

00:22:03:02 - 00:22:07:14
Um, but being able to check back in
when it's over,

00:22:08:01 - 00:22:13:01
yeah, I think is just huge because it
then you get to dispel that.

00:22:13:01 - 00:22:17:03
I somehow cheated
or you have somehow cheated

00:22:17:13 - 00:22:19:16
because we've now connected over this.

00:22:19:22 - 00:22:21:12
It can be unpleasant.

00:22:21:12 - 00:22:25:19
We can decide not to do it again
or we can decide to change it or how we

00:22:25:24 - 00:22:26:18
approach it.

00:22:27:19 - 00:22:29:04
But it doesn't make you wrong.

00:22:29:04 - 00:22:30:24
It doesn't make you a cheater.

00:22:30:24 - 00:22:32:19
Mm. Yeah.

00:22:32:19 - 00:22:34:23
All right. I just went on a tangent, but.

00:22:34:23 - 00:22:35:20
I love it.

00:22:35:20 - 00:22:36:06
But the other.

00:22:36:06 - 00:22:39:13
Thing about being able to reconnect
and talk about it afterwards is it stops

00:22:39:13 - 00:22:42:20
the stories
that we have in our head, right?

00:22:43:00 - 00:22:45:09
Maybe the person that went out
is having this story about how now

00:22:45:09 - 00:22:47:12
their partner is going to hate them
and they're going to lose love,

00:22:48:11 - 00:22:50:19
and maybe their partner
is having the story about what

00:22:50:19 - 00:22:53:16
an amazing time they had
and they will never come home again.

00:22:53:21 - 00:22:54:23
And then you come back,

00:22:54:23 - 00:22:57:16
you talk about it, it's like,
Oh, oh, actually, that was like

00:22:58:16 - 00:22:59:19
none of that was happening.

00:22:59:19 - 00:23:01:22
And this feels actually much better
and normal

00:23:01:22 - 00:23:02:15
and we're back together

00:23:02:15 - 00:23:06:11
and all of those fears and anxieties of
are now smaller and.

00:23:06:23 - 00:23:10:07
Yeah, yeah.

00:23:10:07 - 00:23:12:13
Yeah. Have you um.

00:23:12:13 - 00:23:17:08
Yeah well, and it's hard
to the other pieces it's hard to imagine

00:23:17:08 - 00:23:20:03
if you've been entrenched in monogamy,

00:23:20:18 - 00:23:23:06
um, that you can actually

00:23:24:07 - 00:23:26:05
have relationships of,

00:23:26:05 - 00:23:29:12
of care and loving and attention

00:23:30:07 - 00:23:32:17
and maybe, you know, sensual

00:23:32:17 - 00:23:35:11
or sexual things for multiple people.

00:23:36:10 - 00:23:39:03
And, you know, when people ask me that,
have you ever.

00:23:39:04 - 00:23:40:06
I love this story.

00:23:40:06 - 00:23:45:00
Have you ever read a children's
book called I Love You The Purplest? No.

00:23:46:07 - 00:23:48:13
You're going to have to look at this.

00:23:48:13 - 00:23:51:15
I can't I'm
not sure of the author's name right now,

00:23:51:15 - 00:23:54:23
but the title of the book is
I Love You The Purplest.

00:23:55:11 - 00:23:57:12
And it's not even her most famous book.

00:23:57:20 - 00:23:59:21
Um, but it's the the story.

00:23:59:21 - 00:24:04:06
It, as I recall, is
looks like a single mom with two sons.

00:24:04:22 - 00:24:08:06
And the author has, um,
it was the illustration

00:24:08:14 - 00:24:12:24
and the way they use
words has described both children

00:24:12:24 - 00:24:16:14
as things of blue
or things of a red nature.

00:24:16:14 - 00:24:22:09
So a fiery red, active, talkative boy
and then a more can, you know,

00:24:22:19 - 00:24:25:18
a slower, introverted blue boy.

00:24:26:03 - 00:24:27:22
And of course, it's a children's book.

00:24:27:22 - 00:24:30:24
But, you know, every night
when she puts the boys to bed

00:24:31:19 - 00:24:34:17
saying she spends time with each of them,
and they say,

00:24:34:22 - 00:24:38:03
who do you love the most?

00:24:38:03 - 00:24:41:02
And she always says,
I love you. The purplest. Hmm.

00:24:42:02 - 00:24:42:22
I just love that.

00:24:42:22 - 00:24:46:17
But I always share that story
when couples are thinking about that

00:24:46:17 - 00:24:50:14
and that question of if they if you love
someone else, you won't let me.

00:24:51:10 - 00:24:53:20
Mm. Yeah.

00:24:53:20 - 00:24:58:02
I was like, We do this with children
and pets all the time.

00:24:58:02 - 00:25:00:08
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:25:00:08 - 00:25:03:21
Oh, I love that. It's

00:25:03:21 - 00:25:06:02
Barbara Joosse.

00:25:07:02 - 00:25:09:15
Mm. Is it. J-O-S-S-E?

00:25:09:17 - 00:25:11:15
J-O-O-S-S-E.

00:25:11:15 - 00:25:14:22
So I actually don't know how to
pronounce that, but this looks wonderful.

00:25:14:22 - 00:25:15:17
I'm going to have to check it out.

00:25:15:17 - 00:25:18:23
My kids
all the time ask me who their favorite is.

00:25:18:23 - 00:25:20:08
And I'm like, Yeah,

00:25:20:08 - 00:25:22:07
I don't have a favorite,
but you guys have to work

00:25:22:07 - 00:25:24:21
to stay up in the rankings
because it changes moment to moment.

00:25:28:14 - 00:25:32:00
Real life!

00:25:32:00 - 00:25:34:01
Oh, I love that so much.

00:25:34:01 - 00:25:36:06
Oh, it is. It's true. It's like there's no

00:25:37:20 - 00:25:39:23
every single relationship

00:25:39:23 - 00:25:42:23
is so unique and has

00:25:44:07 - 00:25:47:09
one of the things
that I recently really like

00:25:47:12 - 00:25:49:02
and I've been talking about this
for several years

00:25:49:02 - 00:25:52:08
and had to experience it myself,
but like the idea of

00:25:53:22 - 00:25:57:05
going on similar dates, right,
Like going to the same place

00:25:57:05 - 00:25:59:22
with two different partners
on two different dates.

00:25:59:22 - 00:26:00:06
Right.

00:26:00:06 - 00:26:03:13
And that can create a lot of insecurity,
a lot of jealousy, envy.

00:26:03:17 - 00:26:05:18
I mean, just FOMO,
like a whole bunch of different

00:26:05:18 - 00:26:06:23
feelings can come along with that.

00:26:06:23 - 00:26:09:10
Like, Oh, I don't want to go there because
you already took someone else there.

00:26:09:13 - 00:26:12:01
You already got to experience that thing
with someone else.

00:26:12:11 - 00:26:16:06
And I'm like, every everywhere
I go and every person I go with, it's

00:26:16:06 - 00:26:19:03
a completely different experience,
not just because of who I'm with,

00:26:19:03 - 00:26:20:24
but even like it's
a different time of day.

00:26:20:24 - 00:26:24:03
There's a different waiter,
there's different special on the menu.

00:26:24:03 - 00:26:26:17
I'm sitting at a different table, I'm

00:26:26:17 - 00:26:29:22
having very different conversations
and a very different energy.

00:26:29:22 - 00:26:34:11
And like every single aspect of
it is different except for like the name

00:26:34:11 - 00:26:36:02
of the restaurant. That's it.

00:26:37:05 - 00:26:39:01
Yeah, right.

00:26:39:01 - 00:26:40:16
Oh, that's, that's really good.

00:26:40:16 - 00:26:44:12
Because, um, for a long time as I came off

00:26:44:12 - 00:26:48:10
of being divorced,
I also thought that I thought, Oh,

00:26:48:22 - 00:26:53:01
I either can't do that or
I need to do that and make a new memory.

00:26:53:21 - 00:26:56:14
And I was like,
There's nothing wrong with having two.

00:26:56:14 - 00:26:59:00
It took me a while to get there,
but there's nothing wrong with having

00:26:59:03 - 00:27:01:08
two completely different memories.

00:27:01:08 - 00:27:04:09
Yeah, yeah. For experiences. Yeah, that's.

00:27:04:16 - 00:27:05:09
And they are.

00:27:05:09 - 00:27:08:17
It is a hard one to get over
and another one that I know

00:27:08:18 - 00:27:10:19
has not been a thing for me,
but one of my partners.

00:27:12:02 - 00:27:14:17
It was a first time like,

00:27:14:17 - 00:27:17:21
oh well you, you, I wanted to experience
your first time doing that

00:27:18:22 - 00:27:19:21
was your first.

00:27:19:21 - 00:27:21:02
I wanted to see what it was like

00:27:21:02 - 00:27:23:18
when you saw that the first time
or when you tasted that the first time.

00:27:24:08 - 00:27:30:00
But like the first time, time's not always
the best time in a lot of situations.

00:27:30:00 - 00:27:30:17
I am much.

00:27:30:17 - 00:27:35:22
I am much happier when I'm comfortable
with the thing and I know what to expect.

00:27:35:22 - 00:27:37:12
Yeah, yeah.

00:27:37:12 - 00:27:41:02
Well, and being able to share
the first time experience, right?

00:27:41:18 - 00:27:42:02
I mean,

00:27:43:01 - 00:27:46:04
you can
share that with your other partner.

00:27:46:08 - 00:27:47:09
I mean, you can.

00:27:47:09 - 00:27:50:04
Yeah. Yeah. It's my first time with you.

00:27:50:04 - 00:27:51:23
Uh huh, exactly.

00:27:51:23 - 00:27:53:03
Yeah. Oh, that's a good one.

00:27:53:03 - 00:27:53:13
I have.

00:27:53:13 - 00:27:55:04
I haven't run across that one yet.

00:27:55:04 - 00:27:59:05
Yeah, it's good.

00:27:59:05 - 00:28:02:04
I am curious when you.

00:28:02:04 - 00:28:05:18
I'm curious,

00:28:05:19 - 00:28:07:01
what have been

00:28:07:01 - 00:28:09:24
the biggest challenges for you

00:28:11:12 - 00:28:14:04
in in moving from monogamy

00:28:14:04 - 00:28:17:01
to non-monogamy
and how you just how you navigate

00:28:17:10 - 00:28:21:15
life and relationships?

00:28:21:15 - 00:28:24:20
I think the Oh, I'll go with
first thought, best thought,

00:28:24:21 - 00:28:28:15
the first thing that comes to mind
and it still rears its head

00:28:29:12 - 00:28:31:20
is what other people think.

00:28:32:04 - 00:28:35:10
That only knew me as in monogamy.

00:28:36:02 - 00:28:36:22
Yeah.

00:28:36:22 - 00:28:39:20
You know, do
they not talk to me because of that?

00:28:39:20 - 00:28:41:03
You know, it's a story.

00:28:41:03 - 00:28:41:16
Yeah.

00:28:42:04 - 00:28:43:15
Yeah, right.

00:28:43:15 - 00:28:46:13
Um, what will my family think?

00:28:46:13 - 00:28:48:06
What would my children
think if they find out?

00:28:48:06 - 00:28:50:24
Like, you know, um,

00:28:51:09 - 00:28:55:19
and yet this is not a common dinner
table conversation

00:28:56:11 - 00:28:58:20
with most people.

00:28:58:20 - 00:29:02:01
And the way I've navigated that so far is,

00:29:02:12 - 00:29:06:04
is having that tribe
and that community around me

00:29:06:15 - 00:29:08:22
with similar beliefs and similar

00:29:09:04 - 00:29:11:13
safe ways to have those conversations

00:29:12:03 - 00:29:14:16
so that I don't feel like
I'm always bottling it up.

00:29:15:13 - 00:29:18:09
Um, I mean, that's how I met, you

00:29:19:18 - 00:29:23:13
know, that was a huge step for me.

00:29:23:13 - 00:29:28:20
I had I had actually signed up
for sex Geeks summer camp years ago before

00:29:28:20 - 00:29:31:11
pandemic and didn't go

00:29:32:07 - 00:29:36:03
and just watched it
every year sail by and thank you.

00:29:36:06 - 00:29:37:12
Oh, that's just not for me.

00:29:37:12 - 00:29:38:08
Oh, I can't do it.

00:29:38:08 - 00:29:43:11
Well, you know,
and I ended up going with a friend and

00:29:44:03 - 00:29:47:20
and just it was so enlivening.

00:29:48:06 - 00:29:48:18
Yeah.

00:29:48:18 - 00:29:52:08
And refreshing to be in a room with sex

00:29:52:08 - 00:29:56:04
positive people who want to educate
and make the world a better place

00:29:56:16 - 00:30:00:01
so that it's safe
to talk about these things and.

00:30:00:09 - 00:30:00:23
Yeah.

00:30:01:17 - 00:30:02:19
Mm. Yeah.

00:30:02:19 - 00:30:04:18
Our campers were next to each other.

00:30:04:18 - 00:30:06:07
Yeah! We got to camp next to each other.

00:30:06:07 - 00:30:08:14
That was so much fun.

00:30:08:15 - 00:30:09:09
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:30:09:09 - 00:30:11:22
It was cold and fun. It was amazing.

00:30:11:22 - 00:30:12:22
It was so cold.

00:30:12:22 - 00:30:18:14
Oh, thank you, Reid. Oh.

00:30:19:09 - 00:30:19:23
I love.

00:30:19:23 - 00:30:21:10
Okay, I'm curious.

00:30:21:10 - 00:30:24:17
I the thought of, like,
what will they think?

00:30:24:17 - 00:30:25:17
What will people think?

00:30:25:17 - 00:30:31:05
Do you carry that further?

00:30:31:05 - 00:30:32:04
What do you do?

00:30:32:04 - 00:30:35:13
You go, well like, here's
what they'll probably think.

00:30:35:13 - 00:30:38:11
And then. And then. And then.

00:30:38:15 - 00:30:44:10
And then I'll die alone.

00:30:44:10 - 00:30:46:15
Um, yeah.

00:30:46:15 - 00:30:50:05
That the stories spin, you know, mostly.

00:30:50:05 - 00:30:52:00
That's why that's why I.

00:30:52:00 - 00:30:56:09
There's such a demarcation between friends
I had before and friends I have now.

00:30:56:09 - 00:30:58:01
That's why people don't talk to me.

00:30:58:01 - 00:31:02:10
Yeah, I and it's not true, but I create,
I spin that story

00:31:03:00 - 00:31:05:23
still somewhat regularly.

00:31:05:23 - 00:31:08:14
Um, that's why nobody will ask,

00:31:09:24 - 00:31:12:06
Is this against the law? Um,

00:31:13:07 - 00:31:14:18
am I just kidding myself?

00:31:14:18 - 00:31:18:10
And will every, you know, everybody
be upset and I'm actually cheating and.

00:31:18:15 - 00:31:21:01
And I'll be alone and have no partners.

00:31:21:06 - 00:31:23:22
I Of course. Yeah, yeah.

00:31:23:22 - 00:31:24:13
Yeah.

00:31:24:13 - 00:31:28:03
I do a lot of the, the, you know,
like what will people say or what

00:31:28:03 - 00:31:29:00
will they think?

00:31:29:00 - 00:31:33:06
And then I try to make it a practice
of carrying it on like, you know, oh,

00:31:33:06 - 00:31:36:14
if this person finds out
then they're going to think I'm

00:31:36:24 - 00:31:38:03
a horrible person

00:31:38:03 - 00:31:39:22
and they're going to have
a lot of judgment about me

00:31:39:22 - 00:31:43:13
and then they're going to tell
someone else, and then I'm going to get

00:31:44:04 - 00:31:48:01
I don't know, people are going to start
yelling at me on the Internet

00:31:48:01 - 00:31:49:02
and then they're gonna

00:31:49:02 - 00:31:52:18
shut down all of my social media channels
because I'm a horrible slut

00:31:52:24 - 00:31:55:09
and then I'm never going
to make any money again,

00:31:55:09 - 00:31:59:06
and then I'm going to be homeless and
then everybody's going to stop loving me

00:31:59:11 - 00:32:00:12
because I won't be able to,

00:32:00:12 - 00:32:04:22
I don't know, brush my hair
and then I'm going to die alone.

00:32:04:22 - 00:32:09:03
Or like, like I try to go all out, like,
as ridiculous as I can,

00:32:09:03 - 00:32:15:02
because then I come back to, like,
I'll actually whatever it's fine.

00:32:15:02 - 00:32:17:07
I hadn't even thought of that.
That's awesome.

00:32:17:07 - 00:32:19:04
I I'll have to try that. Yeah.

00:32:19:04 - 00:32:19:19
Because, if you keep

00:32:20:00 - 00:32:23:00
going with it, you go, Well,
how much of this do I actually care about?

00:32:23:00 - 00:32:25:20
Like, like what's,
what's really going to happen here?

00:32:26:07 - 00:32:27:11
And my, my,

00:32:28:11 - 00:32:31:01
which is not advice that I give people
because it's

00:32:31:01 - 00:32:36:13
just my way of coping in life is when I am
anxious and nervous and scared.

00:32:36:22 - 00:32:41:19
I go bigger and louder and harder
and I just like shout from the rooftops

00:32:41:19 - 00:32:46:09
because I, I like feign confidence

00:32:47:10 - 00:32:52:04
so that nobody knows how scared I am.

00:32:52:04 - 00:32:55:23
So everybody knows
because like I had no other way to do it.

00:32:56:24 - 00:32:59:16
Is that is that how
the name of your podcast came about?

00:32:59:18 - 00:33:01:16
Which I love by the way, huh?

00:33:01:16 - 00:33:02:23
Yes. Yeah.

00:33:03:18 - 00:33:05:01
Nope! We're, Not Monogamous.

00:33:05:01 - 00:33:06:00
Whatever.

00:33:06:05 - 00:33:06:19
Get over it.

00:33:06:19 - 00:33:07:05
Let me just.

00:33:07:05 - 00:33:09:04
Let me just. Make this super clear.

00:33:09:04 - 00:33:10:15
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:33:10:15 - 00:33:14:01
Because what people were going was like,
What's happening?

00:33:14:17 - 00:33:18:13
So, you know, and I'm like, well,
if you have a question like,

00:33:19:00 - 00:33:21:15
let's talk about it.

00:33:21:15 - 00:33:27:00
And what I found is the more open
I was about my life,

00:33:27:00 - 00:33:31:01
the more people that I never would have
like, never would have thought like

00:33:31:04 - 00:33:33:06
I'd be like
these people would never talk to me again.

00:33:33:06 - 00:33:36:09
The more those people go like,
Oh, wow, that's that's really fascinating.

00:33:36:09 - 00:33:39:06
I haven't told anybody this, but, uh,

00:33:39:12 - 00:33:43:23
so much of that, so many people are like,
Oh, I feel like I can open up to you.

00:33:43:23 - 00:33:45:23
And in ways that I have not been able

00:33:45:23 - 00:33:48:01
to open up to other people
because I have all those same fears.

00:33:49:05 - 00:33:50:12
Wow. Yeah.

00:33:50:12 - 00:33:52:08
And that is intimacy.

00:33:52:08 - 00:33:55:17
I mean, now you're
you're starting around in my field, right?

00:33:55:17 - 00:33:58:20
Like we we talk about this in our women's

00:33:58:20 - 00:34:02:16
group
all the time is when you can do a check in

00:34:02:16 - 00:34:07:01
and share exactly where you are
and what's happening.

00:34:07:02 - 00:34:10:01
Your fears, what was juicy and gorgeous.

00:34:10:01 - 00:34:12:15
All of it. All of it.

00:34:12:15 - 00:34:16:16
It gives permission for somebody else
to feel what they need to feel.

00:34:17:01 - 00:34:19:05
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:34:19:05 - 00:34:23:19
And feel like it's acceptable
and they won't be shunned and.
It's safe.

00:34:23:24 - 00:34:27:02
Yeah. Left in a desert alone forever.

00:34:27:02 - 00:34:29:14
Mine is Is dying in a tent by the river.

00:34:29:14 - 00:34:31:15
Yeah. With no electricity, you know.

00:34:31:15 - 00:34:32:23
Yep. Yep.

00:34:32:23 - 00:34:36:03
Yep, yep.

00:34:36:03 - 00:34:40:07
So dramatic.

00:34:40:07 - 00:34:42:16
You know, And it's that same thing in,

00:34:44:04 - 00:34:47:15
in romantic relationships and honing
in that communication piece, Right.

00:34:47:15 - 00:34:53:07
The more the more open and honest
you can be and have that be acceptable.

00:34:54:04 - 00:34:54:13
Right.

00:34:54:13 - 00:34:56:07
Like the more
you can hold space for your partner

00:34:56:07 - 00:34:58:16
and your partner can hold space
for you and hear all the things,

00:34:59:08 - 00:35:03:08
the easier it gets and the more intimate
the relationship becomes.

00:35:03:22 - 00:35:05:22
Oh yeah, well, because you're not.

00:35:05:22 - 00:35:07:23
There's no room to make up a story.

00:35:07:23 - 00:35:09:06
Yeah, you know.

00:35:09:06 - 00:35:11:22
Oh, he didn't come to bed
and he slept on the couch

00:35:11:22 - 00:35:15:10
because he doesn't want to be in the bed
with me or whatever.

00:35:15:21 - 00:35:16:04
You know?

00:35:16:04 - 00:35:18:19
He's like, No, I passed out.

00:35:18:19 - 00:35:20:02
Why didn’t you wake me up?

00:35:20:02 - 00:35:22:24
That?

00:35:22:24 - 00:35:24:08
Aren't you glad I'm sleeping?

00:35:26:05 - 00:35:27:05
My back is really sore.

00:35:27:05 - 00:35:28:17
It would have been great
if you had, like, woke me up

00:35:28:17 - 00:35:33:12
and had told me to come to bed.

00:35:33:12 - 00:35:33:23
Yeah.

00:35:34:13 - 00:35:36:15
The truth versus the fabrication.

00:35:36:23 - 00:35:39:05
Oh, totally.

00:35:39:18 - 00:35:42:02
Oh. Oh, oh, yeah.

00:35:42:16 - 00:35:44:04
Oh, oh, I was just going to say that.

00:35:44:04 - 00:35:45:17
Well, it's another.

00:35:45:17 - 00:35:49:17
It's a I mean, in the
in the energy of baring it all,

00:35:49:17 - 00:35:54:18
but another one is when you get this new,
when I get this new relationship energy,

00:35:55:08 - 00:35:58:03
um, you know,

00:35:58:03 - 00:36:01:09
the mind just spirals
and it's like oh wow.

00:36:01:17 - 00:36:03:10
And I even had someone asked me, Well,

00:36:03:10 - 00:36:05:12
so are you scared
you're going to fall in love?

00:36:05:12 - 00:36:08:12
And I was like, I wouldn't do this
if I didn't think I could fall

00:36:08:12 - 00:36:10:10
in love with everybody. Yeah,

00:36:11:10 - 00:36:12:05
yeah.

00:36:12:11 - 00:36:14:22
You get to choose what you do with that.

00:36:14:22 - 00:36:16:07
Right? But then.

00:36:16:07 - 00:36:18:15
But then the thing is, you know,
it's like, Oh, wow.

00:36:18:19 - 00:36:21:00
Well, what happens if what?

00:36:21:03 - 00:36:22:22
Oh, but I can't do that.

00:36:22:22 - 00:36:24:17
But what would happen if I did that?

00:36:24:17 - 00:36:27:11
I mean, it's just this constant

00:36:27:11 - 00:36:30:20
analyzation that happens
because it's something new.

00:36:31:12 - 00:36:34:05
Yeah, it's funny to me.

00:36:34:12 - 00:36:36:12
I mean, and I'm. I'm guilty of it too.

00:36:36:12 - 00:36:39:15
It's funny to me how we have this

00:36:39:15 - 00:36:41:16
story or this,

00:36:42:24 - 00:36:44:09
you know, like the relationship escalator.

00:36:44:09 - 00:36:48:12
But we have this idea
that, like, once love is involved, once

00:36:48:12 - 00:36:52:06
you have big feelings,
now you have to make a bunch of choices.

00:36:52:06 - 00:36:55:05
You can't just have the feelings.

00:36:55:05 - 00:37:01:00
If you have those feelings,
it means X, Y, Z is a bunch of promises

00:37:01:00 - 00:37:04:20
now, and there's a bunch of ways you're
supposed to show up for that person,

00:37:04:20 - 00:37:06:19
and there's a bunch
of ways that you have to

00:37:08:01 - 00:37:10:20
make these
commitments that like nobody's saying,

00:37:11:01 - 00:37:14:16
nobody's saying you have to,
but we all just have this kind of belief

00:37:14:16 - 00:37:18:10
if that has been hammered into us
and they aren’t the same belief,

00:37:18:10 - 00:37:20:12
everyone has different beliefs
about what it means.

00:37:20:12 - 00:37:22:05
Right? Right.

00:37:22:10 - 00:37:26:11
But like, what if you fall in love?

00:37:26:11 - 00:37:29:11
And what they aren't saying
is because if you fall in love,

00:37:29:11 - 00:37:32:05
then you have to make a choice
to change your life.

00:37:32:10 - 00:37:35:24
And and love has to conquer all obstacles.

00:37:36:03 - 00:37:39:21
And love has to mean
that they're the perfect person for you.

00:37:40:02 - 00:37:41:04
And like this.

00:37:41:04 - 00:37:41:19
Whole.

00:37:41:19 - 00:37:44:11
Narrative
happening in the unspoken part of it.

00:37:45:12 - 00:37:47:10
Oh, that's so good.

00:37:47:10 - 00:37:51:00
I mean, and I hear the echoes
of marriage vows, and they're right

00:37:51:11 - 00:37:52:24
that we've all been trained.

00:37:52:24 - 00:37:56:11
I mean, you know, it's, oh, wow, you're
going to get married and have babies.

00:37:56:11 - 00:37:59:13
And to have two and a half dogs, picket
fence and whatever.

00:37:59:13 - 00:38:02:00
Right?

00:38:02:00 - 00:38:05:16
Oh, yes. We write songs About it.

00:38:05:16 - 00:38:08:10
We have nursery rhymes about it
that we all know. Yes.

00:38:08:19 - 00:38:09:19
I forgot.

00:38:09:19 - 00:38:10:20
I know, I remember.

00:38:10:20 - 00:38:13:16
Oh, but.

00:38:13:16 - 00:38:14:13
Why can't we?

00:38:14:13 - 00:38:15:11
Yeah, it's right.

00:38:15:11 - 00:38:18:01
Like,
why can't you just have big feelings.

00:38:18:20 - 00:38:20:19
Yeah. And enjoy them.

00:38:20:19 - 00:38:22:12
Yeah. Oh.

00:38:23:17 - 00:38:24:22
I actually.

00:38:24:22 - 00:38:26:07
I assume you know who?

00:38:26:07 - 00:38:28:22
Esther Perel is. Yeah.

00:38:29:22 - 00:38:32:08
The sexiest woman alive.

00:38:32:08 - 00:38:34:04
I love listening to her voice.

00:38:34:04 - 00:38:34:23
Oh, my God.

00:38:34:23 - 00:38:35:21
Isn't she amazing?

00:38:35:21 - 00:38:38:24
But I read a quote from her

00:38:38:24 - 00:38:42:03
a couple of days ago,

00:38:42:09 - 00:38:44:17
and I'm going to share it with you
because it's so good right now.

00:38:45:10 - 00:38:46:22
She said. A truth.

00:38:46:22 - 00:38:49:13
There's no love without fear of loss.

00:38:49:13 - 00:38:52:20
So if you want to experience
intense connections, you have to know that

00:38:52:20 - 00:38:56:22
those feelings must live side by side
with the fear of losing that love.

00:38:57:23 - 00:38:59:19
Oh, I just got chills.

00:38:59:19 - 00:39:01:08
Oh, yeah, I read that.

00:39:01:08 - 00:39:04:07
And I was like, Oh, that's so good. Like,
you just got to.

00:39:04:07 - 00:39:04:23
Yeah, okay.

00:39:04:23 - 00:39:07:09
What if I fall in love
and eventually it'll end

00:39:08:04 - 00:39:10:10
everything ends eventually,
one way or another.

00:39:10:10 - 00:39:12:24
Like. Fine. As far as

00:39:14:13 - 00:39:15:14
I'm. Yeah.

00:39:15:14 - 00:39:17:14
Oh, that's good. That's good.

00:39:17:14 - 00:39:18:13
Yeah.

00:39:19:02 - 00:39:21:06
Well, otherwise it's the contrast, right?

00:39:21:16 - 00:39:24:01
If there's no contrast,
you just end up being best friends

00:39:25:10 - 00:39:27:17
or great work buddies.

00:39:27:17 - 00:39:28:17
Yeah.

00:39:28:22 - 00:39:31:01
Yeah.

00:39:31:01 - 00:39:32:22
Oh that's so good.

00:39:32:23 - 00:39:34:19
I haven't I. Yeah, I haven't.

00:39:34:19 - 00:39:38:20
We read, uh, we did a book club
on Mating in Captivity years ago.

00:39:38:22 - 00:39:39:22
Oh, yeah?

00:39:40:03 - 00:39:41:07
Yeah. I love her.

00:39:41:07 - 00:39:41:21
Oh, me too.

00:39:41:21 - 00:39:45:23
Rob and I got to see her
speak here in Seattle recently.

00:39:45:23 - 00:39:47:21
A couple of months ago. Oh.

00:39:47:21 - 00:39:51:04
I got to stand up and hold a microphone
and ask you a question, and it was just.

00:39:52:03 - 00:39:52:24
Oh, I'm curious.

00:39:52:24 - 00:39:55:04
Why did you ask her now? I can't remember.

00:39:56:01 - 00:39:57:18
Oh, what did I ask her? I.

00:39:57:18 - 00:40:00:01
I don't remember now.

00:40:00:01 - 00:40:01:24
I wrote it down, but I don't.

00:40:01:24 - 00:40:04:04
You got
you got to stand there and talk to her.

00:40:04:12 - 00:40:07:02
Yeah, I got to talk to her
and she answer my question is she

00:40:07:07 - 00:40:08:09
she does this cool thing

00:40:08:09 - 00:40:11:13
where she'll take five or six questions
and not answer them,

00:40:12:03 - 00:40:16:10
and then she'll start telling a story
that weaves the answers all in

00:40:17:01 - 00:40:18:10
and she'll be like,
That was the answer to you.

00:40:18:10 - 00:40:19:15
And that was the answer to you on this.

00:40:19:15 - 00:40:22:09
Let me ask you one more question
about that. And she's brilliant.

00:40:22:14 - 00:40:24:01
Like brilliant.

00:40:24:01 - 00:40:27:15
Wow, That was cool.

00:40:27:15 - 00:40:28:22
That's holding.

00:40:28:22 - 00:40:30:17
Well, yeah, it was impressive, but

00:40:32:19 - 00:40:34:07
is there anything.

00:40:34:07 - 00:40:34:22
Oh, wait, no.

00:40:34:22 - 00:40:39:03
First, I want to ask you, what is
something that anybody can do for free

00:40:40:06 - 00:40:42:15
to help them have a healthier

00:40:42:15 - 00:40:47:21
relationships?

00:40:47:21 - 00:40:52:13
Do for free to help them have.

00:40:52:13 - 00:40:55:17
My one of my first things
is to sit across from each other

00:40:55:17 - 00:40:58:02
and do eye gazing left eye to left eye.

00:40:59:00 - 00:41:01:02
Oh. Yeah.

00:41:01:04 - 00:41:05:09
So your breathing,
your blood pressure, your heart rate,

00:41:05:09 - 00:41:08:21
all of that will eventually

00:41:09:18 - 00:41:10:17
regulate.

00:41:10:23 - 00:41:13:05
Coregulate. Syncing up.

00:41:13:15 - 00:41:14:13
Yeah.

00:41:15:09 - 00:41:15:23
I love.

00:41:15:23 - 00:41:19:17
And then there's all sorts of things
to play off that that you can, you know,

00:41:19:17 - 00:41:25:08
the tantric position of the yab yum
where you're entwined around each other.

00:41:25:08 - 00:41:28:00
You line up
all of the energy centers in the body.

00:41:28:09 - 00:41:31:09
Um, the other one I love to do
is have couples,

00:41:31:18 - 00:41:34:19
after
they've done that turn and be back to back

00:41:35:10 - 00:41:37:23
and see if you can feel
the other person breathe.

00:41:38:22 - 00:41:39:23
So you're,

00:41:39:23 - 00:41:43:08
you can begin to decipher vertebrae
with the breath.

00:41:43:08 - 00:41:44:00
I mean

00:41:45:00 - 00:41:46:06
yeah.

00:41:46:06 - 00:41:47:22
Oh, that's beautiful.

00:41:47:22 - 00:41:49:13
No cost at all.

00:41:49:13 - 00:41:51:18
Yeah. 15 minutes.

00:41:51:18 - 00:41:54:24
I love, I love it.

00:41:54:24 - 00:41:57:21
Is there anything that you would want
to share

00:41:57:21 - 00:42:04:07
with the listeners
that I haven't asked you yet? Um.

00:42:05:01 - 00:42:05:14
You know,

00:42:05:14 - 00:42:10:08
it has nothing to do with non-monogamy,
but it's a big part of me right now.

00:42:10:17 - 00:42:15:11
I am nearing
18 years as a breast cancer survivor,

00:42:16:09 - 00:42:21:10
and I am writing a digital course to help

00:42:22:14 - 00:42:26:10
women who have been through breast cancer
in the medical realm.

00:42:26:18 - 00:42:27:06
Yeah.

00:42:27:06 - 00:42:30:06
And you, you know, you

00:42:30:06 - 00:42:33:03
sometimes they lose partners, sometimes,

00:42:33:09 - 00:42:36:12
you know, many times
you're thrown into medical menopause.

00:42:36:23 - 00:42:43:11
I just want that piece noted because
that piece we talked about embodiment

00:42:44:03 - 00:42:50:04
renewing joy with with these women,
because everything changes.

00:42:50:04 - 00:42:54:09
It's not just your physical body
that changes your hormones, change

00:42:54:09 - 00:42:58:03
your emotion, your spirituality,
like so many things change

00:42:58:11 - 00:43:01:13
and not being able
to get back into your body

00:43:01:24 - 00:43:04:23
and remember what brings you joy is

00:43:04:23 - 00:43:09:13
the to me is the crucial foundation
for maintaining

00:43:09:20 - 00:43:14:16
or creating a relationship with this
terrible disease in your background.

00:43:15:07 - 00:43:15:22
Yeah.

00:43:15:22 - 00:43:18:24
I know that’s not a lot to do

00:43:18:24 - 00:43:21:18
with non-monogamy, but it has a lot to do
with the things we talked about.

00:43:22:04 - 00:43:23:21
Yeah, yeah. And is

00:43:25:03 - 00:43:27:17
needed and relatable for a lot of people.

00:43:27:17 - 00:43:29:03
Thank you.

00:43:29:10 - 00:43:30:05
Yeah, so good.

00:43:30:05 - 00:43:32:20
Thanks for listening.

00:43:32:20 - 00:43:35:09
Oh, I have one more question.

00:43:35:09 - 00:43:41:07
There is a segment that I hold aside for
our supporters of the show, our patrons.

00:43:41:07 - 00:43:44:20
That is just the tip and it is.

00:43:44:20 - 00:43:45:13
Love it.

00:43:45:13 - 00:43:48:00
What is your best or favorite sex tip.

00:43:59:00 - 00:44:00:03
Oh, that's beautiful.

00:44:00:03 - 00:44:01:20
Thank you.

00:44:01:20 - 00:44:04:17
Mmm, so good.

00:44:04:17 - 00:44:06:10
Thanks for asking.

00:44:06:10 - 00:44:09:06
Of course, thank you so much

00:44:09:06 - 00:44:11:07
for coming on today.

00:44:12:10 - 00:44:13:07
I enjoyed it.

00:44:13:07 - 00:44:15:18
Thanks for making it easy.

00:44:16:10 - 00:44:18:00
And that was Kim Holden.

00:44:18:00 - 00:44:21:00
You can find her links in the show notes.

00:44:21:07 - 00:44:24:21
And if you want to hear her,
Just the Tip sex tip

00:44:25:10 - 00:44:29:02
for subscribers of the show
at patreon/notmonogamous.

00:44:29:02 - 00:44:31:08
You can go there
and become a friend with benefits.

00:44:31:08 - 00:44:33:02
Or a lover to Nope!

00:44:33:02 - 00:44:38:02
We're not monogamous and hear
all of the behind the scenes stuff.

00:44:38:02 - 00:44:43:07
I want to give a shout out to K and B,
who just became our most recent lovers

00:44:43:09 - 00:44:46:23
and will get to join me on a call

00:44:48:00 - 00:44:48:21
this month.

00:44:48:21 - 00:44:50:07
Well, every month

00:44:50:07 - 00:44:55:17
on a call for like asking questions
and getting coached and just chatting

00:44:55:17 - 00:44:59:17
about all of the things that a lot of us
don't have anyone to really chat about.

00:45:00:03 - 00:45:02:21
So join us.