SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, monogamy, polyamory, relationship, learning, person, community, partner, feel, color, white, experience, engaging, racism, non monogamy, tendency, polyamorous, marginalized identities, talking, hear
SPEAKERS
Kyra, Ellecia
Ellecia 00:00
Hey, I'm Ellecia, your non monogamous relationship coach. Welcome to the podcast where my friends and I chat about our relationships, enthusiastic non monogamy, polyamory, swinging, kink, and our lives, you'll get a candid peek into what makes it worth it to live life outside the box. And in case you're still wondering, nope, we're not monogamous. I'm no expert on racism. But I am a person who's always learning and growing and challenging my own internalized racism. I consider this podcast and my other platforms to be absolutely anti racist. So while this may not be a topic I addressed very often it is a topic that I feel passionately about. So today I'm sharing a conversation I had with my friend Kyra. Kyra is a solo poly relationship anarchist, and a person of color who's passionate about hard cider and social justice. Kyra is a child care and birth worker of color living in Seattle with her two cats and her turtle. And in her spare time, she grounds herself with reading and nature and loved ones, and is just a phenomenal human being. And I'm really excited to share this conversation with you. Enjoy. Okay, so the first thing I want to ask you is, what does non monogamy look like for you? What kind of labels do you use? Or what's your What's your story?
Kyra 01:36
What's, what's my thing, um, so I am a relationship anarchist, and solo polyamorous. And the most basic way that I can explain relationship anarchy is that you negotiate each of your individual relationships, whether they're platonic, family, romantic. And then you kind of design the intimacy levels, and what the structure of those relationships look like, you negotiate it with each person individually. And then the idea is that all of your relationships are on the same playing field. So one is not stacked above the other. With solo polyamory, I enjoy having multiple romantic partners. But I kind of value my autonomy very highly. So the ideas that I am first are really shipped with myself. And then the rest of those relationships kind of follow. And so that is by no means super comprehensive, but it's the very basic overview both of those. Yeah, that's, that's what that looks like. For me. I found out about the terms from a couple of friends that I knew were polyamorous. And I was talking to them at the start of me learning about polyamory. And they were like, Oh, that sounds a lot like this. And so I joined some Facebook groups, and I learned more, I read some articles, and it just fit me really well.
Ellecia 03:12
Yeah. Were you were you like, doing the monogamy thing prior? Like for a long time, or?
Kyra 03:19
I was, I will say that before I was in polyamory, I single for a very long time. Like we're talking like six years. I hadn't. I hadn't dated anyone. And so before that, before my single period, yeah, I was definitely in monogamous relationships. I did not know that. There were any other options available?
Ellecia 03:42
Right? Totally. Like, God, if I had known you could do something else sooner.
Kyra 03:49
You know, and I grew up really conservative. And so it was kind of in that mode for a long time. So I have to be honest with you. I don't know that had I been presented with polyamory that I would have jumped into it. It may have sounded really interesting and intriguing to me, but I don't think that I would have given myself over to it. Um, so there was a little bit of deconstruction, that kind of led to me being able to feel open about accepting that.
Ellecia 04:17
Oh, yeah, I'm curious. I'm curious about that deconstruction, like, how does that... Well, the thing I was gonna ask you was like, what was the biggest challenge of like, moving into ethical non monogamy and like relationship anarchy, but like, I feel like it is that deconstruction.
Kyra 04:35
Oh, my goodness, that was definitely a major part of it. I actually, like having hindsight, I realized that in deconstructing like my conservative upbringing, and I grew up in like very evangelical, charismatic, mega church world, Christianity, and in deconstructing that I actually came to terms to a place where I felt like a lot Christianity is based on a Jesus that is created and like a white man's image and what the white man's ideal is and what it looks like for success for him. And I found that I really felt like, if you're reading through the Bible, Jesus doesn't really seem to place as much hierarchy or level of importance on other people the same way that we do. And so I feel like my deconstruction with Christianity led me to trusting in the principles that eventually led me into relationship anarchy before I even knew what that term was. And so I was already kind of in a place of building intentionally building more community and not placing hierarchy on my friendships and allowing myself to experience really deep intimacy in my friendships, versus this idea of like, you have this one romantic partner, and they are your source of emotional and physical and mental support and well being. What I found, while deconstructing was that Jesus has a tendency to spread that out to everyone, and he never counts anyone out. So, um, I was kind of starting to get into living my life in that way. And so that's why when I was looking into polyamory, I was like, Well, I would do it like this, I would want a more community based approach to it. And then someone was like, Well, that sounds a lot like this. So it was really cool. It felt like pieces falling into place. For me, it was really exciting.
Ellecia 06:32
Oh, my God, I love that so much. It's like, what an intentional way to build relationships rather than just falling into whatever is offered up in front of you, that might be good enough, in a few ways.
Kyra 06:47
Yeah, exactly. Right. Because I mean, there's not a single relationship that you have that cover like, community for you as a whole person is just, I have found at least for myself, that has not been possible. And so in a lot of ways, I felt like this, like a new spiritual journey I was on, challenged a lot of the values that we place on like the family system, and what it looks like. So I'm very much into doing platonic parenting, where I, if I chose to raise a child, I would choose to do it with someone that also wanted to raise children, but I wouldn't be romantically involved with them. And I love the idea of living in a home with one or more platonic partners that I'm raising children with, and then having my dinner table open every night to people in my neighborhood to come and join at the table. And just building community and relationships and being really intentional about the way that I live in my space.
Ellecia 07:53
Yeah, yeah. Oh, man, that's so good. I love that. I feel like, I don't know, I feel like a lot of us grow up with, like, half of that. Probably not most of us, but a lot of a lot of us grew up with, like, you know, some sort of community around the home. But but it is very, like, hierarchical. Right. Like, I can only offer support to people if they're involved in me in this particular way.
Kyra 08:19
Exactly. Or, like just involved in, like the things that spark your interest. Um, like, I've learned, like to place value on people that just don't look like me don't like, have the same interest that I do. And just you experience so much more of life that way. And there's a lot of things I think that's one of the beauty aspects of polyamory is that you can meet so many different people and learn to love life the way that they do. And you just learned so many different things. There's a lot of different perspectives that exists. caveat here is that this absolutely excludes any kind of like harmful behavior, like racism or sexism. Of course. We always have to add that in the like, fine print. But yeah,
Ellecia 09:08
yeah, let's just name that. Yeah, totally. I wonder what is the difference or like the challenges of dating is a relationship anarchist or solo polyamorous, rather than a standard way?
Kyra 09:26
I would say right off the top of my head. I'm thinking you know, that there's a lot of misconceptions. I think when you start using where it's like relationship anarchy, I think that can sound really scary to someone that has no idea what that is. The idea that relationship, anarchists are not intentional or caring about the people that they come in contact with that they're kind of a hit it and quit it. movement. Which is not what that is. I feel like
Ellecia 09:57
Unless you both agree.
Kyra 10:00
Okay, yes, exactly. you negotiate in your relationship with someone? Yes, absolutely. Um, but I think people kind of imagine it to be someone that comes into their life and under the pretense that there's going to be intimacy and connection, but then that person is just going to walk away, and they have an easier time doing it just because they're relationship anarchist, I think it's actually quite the opposite. Because the idea is that you are investing in, you're taking a lot of intention into what your relationships look like, and how they're structured.
Ellecia 10:35
Yeah, I was talking to some folks the other day on on the podcast, the millions who are also relationship coaches, and we were talking about relationship anarchy, and he had said that he actually labeled himself a relationship autonomist. Which was, I mean, really, I think, like, the main piece of that was kind of taken the scary word out of it, right? Like, like, the autonomy is what was really important to him. And I really resonated with that. And then the other thing is, a lot of times I see people use the label solo polyamory, when really they're just dating, right, like, like, they're just people.
Kyra 11:20
I think one of my favorite parts about solo polyamory is that there's a there's a big thing in that community with not cohabitating. And I'm a pretty extroverted person, and I enjoy community and I enjoy being around people, but I do also value like my space. And so having kind of a sacred space, for me is really important. I think, even if I was cohabitating, with someone, I would have like a separate bedroom. So that way, I just have a space that is mine that I can walk into, and that it's intentionally set up to kind of be geared towards what brings me peace, and a sense of safety. So, you know, it's, it's fascinating to me, like, there's like actual science that supports that we sleep better on our own right, and kind of in our own separate space so that we can be, you know, everyone has a unique sleeping setup. And so you can gear the space towards what's conducive for you sleeping plus, like just the noise reduction, especially if you have like a partner that snores. And that's not sleeping with you. I mean, you just sleep better. But usually in our society when someone mentions that they don't sleep in the same bedroom as their partner. It's like a red flag for us, right? We're like, oh, my god, they're having problems. No, I'm actually just sleeping really well at night. Which like, don't get me wrong, I do actually enjoy spending the night with people occasionally, like I don't mind having someone sleep next to me and it can actually be really nice and help further intimacy and things like that. But just not every night. I need to be able to retreat back to my own space. So like I sleep with a humidifier. I like it cold. I've got a I've got a very specific setup.
Ellecia 13:11
That's totally relatable I at any given night. There could be anywhere from one to three people in my bed. I've really come to love I used to get really anxious about nights that I was sleeping alone. I I just I was really worried about it. And then and then I got really used to it and I sleep so well when there's nobody else in my bed and when especially when I kicked the cats out. Like I sleep like the dead all night. Yeah. Okay, what is the most inappropriate, awkward or intrusive thing someone has said to you about your relationship style? Yeah,
Kyra 13:52
This is a fun game. I'm like, which one do I pick? Um, I don't know if it was super intrusive. I just I think that the maybe the thinking behind this particular question that I got was like really intriguing to me. Someone had asked me I was I was I had mentioned that I was dating someone and had shown them a picture. And they said, so you're polyamorous for them like so they can have like other girlfriends. And I thought it was really interesting that the immediate assumption was that I had in some way, like given up my wants and desires to cater to a guy and that I was that they were kind of it was kind of their way of like trampling me underfoot. Um, and, you know, I let that person know that, you know, I actually was like this before I had met this person and rather we kind of just met in in a space that was similar and we kind of Just both were in the same space where we agreed that this is the way we wanted to live our lives and, and thus, that added to us building a relationship together. Um, but I thought it was really interesting that the immediate assumption was the, you know, I was sacrificing like my well being to like be in the structure, which to me says a lot about the way that we view women, their sexual desires, their relationship desires, whether or not they have autonomy, whether or not they can use that autonomy well. The way that we question women as a society making relationship choices for themselves, and whether or not like women can make healthy choices for themselves when it comes to relationships. And so it was just, like, watching kind of what I felt like was just sexism, like unfold in front of my eyes was, it was really interesting. I had not gotten that yet. And so um, and I'm sure it won't be the last time but I thought it was really fascinating, because I felt like there was so much baggage that came in that one question. Um, and I could be absolutely wrong, but I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that it's usually women that actually initiate having open relationships. And so I think it's fascinating that the assumption is that men are kind of more dominant in that area. I think, if you're in any polyamory communities long enough, like you're going to learn pretty quickly that, um, I think men actually have a tendency to usually struggle with, with finding dates, and, and really getting into the community at first, there can be a lot of hesitancy and things like that. So...
Ellecia 16:47
Yeah, yeah, that's, that has been my experience in my work coaching people around ethical non monogamy is that more often it is the woman who is more, either is the one who brings it up and desires it or their partner is. And they're just like, yeah, okay, and then they just move through everything so much faster and get to the other side, like, Alright, cool. I'm ready. Let's do this. And then their partner is like, wait, I thought this was just gonna be this really fun thing where I got to have threesomes with multiple women. Wait. Yeah. And I've heard that too. A lot. Actually. The whole sacrifice thing, like this idea that like, Oh, well, that's great for him. But like, what about you? I got that a lot, which not only is super sexist, but totally invalidated the relationship that I have with my girlfriend. Like, as if same sex relationship is not a real relationship, or it wasn't like it, the whole thing kind of is mind boggling sometimes.
Kyra 17:59
Yeah, I think I try to like give a lot of grace, because I know that if someone has never been approached with the idea of polyamory before has not seen it done in a healthy way, then there's just so many misconceptions. And there's like so many questions. And it's, it's almost comical kind of being on the other side of it, where you have like more experience and navigating polyamory, and then we're just non monogamy in general. And then you like listen to people that have no experience with it, and the kind of questions that they ask. And sometimes it sounds so silly. Like, what do you think this is like? You know, like, I'm not like, involved in the debauchery every five seconds, like I do normal things that people do.
Ellecia 18:50
Actually, no all I do is fuck all day long.
Kyra 18:55
Even if you were like non monogamy, you know, it's like it's not dirty. It's just another way to engage in relationships with people. And if that looks like having sex all day long, then that looks like having sex all day long. And that's, that's for you. Like, that's okay. Um, yeah, I think if you're going to approach non monogamy at all, like, there's a lot of deconstruction that you have to do just, we internalize monogamy so fast. Um, it's incredible. Yeah.
Ellecia 19:26
I mean, it's like, generations and generations and generations of our ancestors that have created this culture of what of like an expectation of what relationships are supposed to look like. And yeah, you know, and we've been trying to like, deconstruct that for quite a while, but it's such a slow process, because there's so much resistance and so much fear and so much. Just really fear, I think, yeah. Yeah.
Kyra 19:58
One of the things I think learned and like decolonizing like, the way that I practice, non monogamy is that a lot of like indigenous communities, a lot of like communities of color have been practicing non monogamy for a long time, it's been really successful. And that is part of their history. And it wasn't really until, you know, the there was colonization from like Eurocentric Western like theology where this stuff kind of like starts to happen, right, where it's like, it becomes the new normal, and people like, can cling on to what they were indoctrinated to very hard. So I have not finished exploring that, that that train of thought, but, um, the more that I'm learning about it, the more that I'm seeing that, you know, this has been done successfully, we just, we just haven't had the pictures in our faces. Very much. And so and unfortunately, we've some of those communities, you know, colonization has, like, put them in absolute destitute, and so we've we've cut ourselves off at the knees by not, by destroying the stories that we could have had that would have been able to, like, shown us happen navigate this in a healthier way. Um, and so, you know, I feel like there's a huge lesson to learn there. Right. Um, and like, just sitting with the weight of that, I think is I think it's really powerful.
Ellecia 21:25
You know, one of the reasons I two reasons I wanted to have you on one, you're awesome. The other one, like, you are one of the few people that I know, who is very outspoken not only about polyamory, but also about like racism and decolonizing relationships, and that whole thing and so, I really, that that's really what I was excited to talk to you about. Yeah, yeah. I wonder, I wonder if people even know what that means.
Kyra 21:57
Probably not. You know, I will say like the I'm still exploring what that means. So, um, so you know, ask for grace here while I talk about that. So I guess for context, like I move through the world as a biracial black woman, and so I'm half black and half white, and I am melanated light, so I am not very dark presenting. Um, however, I still experienced racism. But it's not going to be to the same degree as someone that's darker than me. And so they're just easier to target, the closer your proximity is to like blackness, like, the more that you're going to experience, that's kind of just the reality of it. And so, there's a lot of things that I'm learning, you know, off the top of my head, racism exists literally in everything, it's, it's in everything, it's permeated through everything, even when you think that you're not doing or saying something that's racist. I mean, it's kind of like guess again. One of the things that I've learned, I'm coming into polyamory is just the representation generally, when you do like go online, and you research about polyamory or non monogamy, you're going to find a lot of pictures of white people. Um, and the assumption, I think, sometimes is the people of color do not engage in non monogamy. And that's actually not very true. Some of the largest, like, polyamorous communities I'm a part of, are centered on black people. And, and some of a lot of the content that I actually follow from people that I think give great advice are people of color. So, um, they are here, and they are loud and clear. But we have a tendency to value whiteness. And so I think sometimes I hear from people like, oh, there aren't people of color that practice polyamory, like we are here, we're just hiding in our safe spaces. So we don't have to battle like the onslaught of correcting people's behavior and things like that. I would say for me, um, I am dating someone that's a white right now. And I am learning a lot about building trust. And, and also that, you know, you know, coming into this, that when you have a partner that's white, and you're a person of color, that it's inevitable that they're going to say or do something that is going to is going to hurt or just be a mess up when it comes like to racism, but I think I underestimated how painful that could be. Because I realized that I trusted you know, you want to trust that this. This is the one person that wouldn't to do that. And so you're quickly reminded that they're a human being and that you know, the mess ups do come and they do happen. But what I place a lot of importance and value on is how they respond. And so this is kind of intersected with me learning how to move outside of trauma, and outside of like a trauma based line of thinking and learning how to communicate my needs, communicate, where I've been hurt, and then trusting that my partner has the capacity to hear what I'm saying the empathy and the compassion to respond, and the desire to want to do better. And so having this practice of rupture and repair, when it comes to racism, and experiencing that, not just with my partners, but also just within like non monogamy community as a whole, finding those people that in your community that will listen, when you say like, that wasn't okay to say that hurts, I found that it can be it can be rare sometimes that sometimes people do put in the work. I think, um, when it comes to non monogamy, some of the like just major ticket items that you find are just people of color, being fetishized, you know, people want to date them want to date a quote unquote exotic person. And being biracial, I can get pretty, I can take that pretty hard, because being biracial gets fetishized quite a bit. And so it's like you have the you have the lightness and the Eurocentric features, but you look quote unquote, exotic at the same time. And so having people approach you from that mindset, I have a tendency to shut that down pretty quick. But just I think running into behavior like that, running into behavior where people are just like blatantly unsafe. And they haven't done any processing work where they are like, learning how to accept people that are just different.
26:54
People can say some really harmful stuff. And there's someone that I follow on Facebook and I don't want to butcher her name. I'm going to do my best I think it's Levitica
Ellecia 27:07
I think it's Lavitaloca I could be wrong I read it with the other "l" in there.
Kyra 27:14
I apologize if I've sent your name wrong. Absolutely correct me, I have. One of the things that they posted really early on, that I've been I've held on to is that coming into non monogamy is likely going to be your first time where you engage with different marginalized identities. And it is your job to do the work to learn how to engage with those different communities, whether we're talking about LGBTQ plus, whether we're talking about disabled people, whether we're talking about people of color, um, you have to own that there is some unlearning that you have to do because it you know, those marginalized identities abound a plenty when you walk into non monogamy. So and if you're a non monogamous experience has been that you've only encountered cis het white people, I feel like you have to start asking yourself questions like why am I only encountering this when they're when someone else is saying that there are absolutely tons of marginalized identities that exists within this community? And you have to start asking yourself the hard questions like am I a safe person for those people to exist around and be their authentic selves. So I would say that engaging in non monogamy for me personally, I have had the most exposure to learning about disabilities than I ever have had before in my entire life. And it was, I would say, a huge blind spot for me, I did not think in terms of how being able bodied, it gave me so much privilege. And so you know, we always like to think of like people being handicapped, but being in the disabled existence. So it's also a whole spectrum. There's so many different ways that disability exists. And so educating myself and learning has been for me a pleasure and a joy. But yeah, it was something that's definitely new. So,
Ellecia 29:11
yeah, I think there's something really powerful about just being able to admit that you don't know what you don't know. Yeah. Right. Like, we have this, this idea that, like, everything I was taught, and the lens that I view everything through must be truth. Because otherwise, there's this, you know, like, the shame or fear that I don't know a thing and now I'm stupid or and I think people get really defensive, like, and just won't admit, like, there's things I don't know and like, I'm totally open to learning about them, and I'm probably gonna fuck it up. And I'm probably gonna say stupid shit, but like, I'm okay with being corrected and being taught and learning from those mistakes. And I think there's a huge block there.
Kyra 29:57
Yeah, your ego can resist that. Like, just engaging in that level of humility a lot. And I think it's like, it can be a protective mechanism for some people, right? Like you are just protecting, like, you're just protecting yourself and your idea of what the world looks like. And I think for some people to admit that they don't know everything, it means that their world is unsafe, because they do not understand or they don't know what's coming up. And you don't have the ability to, you don't have the predictability. It kind of takes the stability away for some people, I think, and so just hearing that it's possible that you might be wrong about things. You know, I feel like I, I've seen some people get really malicious, when you start pointing out, like, you know, things like, hey, this, the way that you're talking to me makes me feel uncomfortable, or the way that you've done this actually really hurt. I think people get to a place where they, you know, they want to stonewall it, because they're just protecting themselves. And their idea of who they are and what their images and so it starts to get really personal really quick. And it's hard work. It's really hard work.
Ellecia 31:11
Yeah, yeah, there's, um, I was gonna ask you about rupture and repair? Hmm, do you have any suggestions or tools that somebody might use, because that's something I talk about a lot in communication and relationship. You know, I
Kyra 31:30
actually can't talk about this without crediting my current partner, they are, like amazing at rupture and repair. And so I would say that rupture and repair is something that is more new for me practicing, I grew up in a home where there's a lot of trauma. And so I'm still unlearning of the things that I learned in that environment. And one of the things that I learned was the second that there is a rupture, it does not get repaired. And oftentimes, you just leave, you just walk away, or things just fester and build up. And so my coping mechanism was to experience someone something that hurt, and then put it on a shelf. And then we just don't address it, and we mask it, and we're really good at hiding it. And then you wonder why you're always angry or always sad about things. You're like, I have no clue. One of the joys that I have experienced with my current partner is that the rapture moments are inevitable. They come up in small ways and big ways and medium sized ways it happens. Because we're human beings, and we're all kind of living from our own previous emotional context. So, you know, occasionally, we bumped shoulders. And the ways that we have worked through this is kind of sitting face to face with each other, usually on my couch. And we kind of just take turns walking through things from our perspective. And I would say that we're really good at trying to keep things as calm as possible. And by calm, I don't mean that you don't show that you're angry, or you're hurt. I mean, that even in that hurt, and that anger, you are not disparaging the other person that's sitting in front of you. And so I would say this takes a little bit of training and practice, right? Because sometimes you're feeling really intense emotions. And then on top of that, you're experiencing it from someone that sometimes we feel like, shouldn't be capable of hurting us this way, right? Like, we should always be able to trust their safe space. And so just kind of vocalizing what things look like from our perspectives. And sitting there and then trusting the other person's perspective. And they're a credible witness to their own experience. And kind of moving forward. From there, I would say that it's okay to be slow in moving forward from rupture, while you're repairing sometimes, sometimes slow is the best cadence that you can take to take care of someone else's feelings, of being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes. And consider for a moment that while your perspective is true, and reality for you that their perspective is true and real for them at the same time. And so these two different perspectives have to be able to exist the same time and be true and valid. And then of course, if we're talking about relationships that have involve more than two people, then you're adding more perspectives, right? I think, for me, staying in therapy has been really helpful because then I have someone that I can go to for advice and to be very honest, saying like, did I handle this correctly, or my therapist or a relationship coach like you can provide just a healthier perspective, then something that you're something that you're not seeing? So I remember one of the first things that I had kind of encounter with my partner that was really worrisome to me because we I'd never experienced a point at that moment in our relationship where, you know, I felt like my needs weren't being met. And I talked to my therapist about this, and we kind of laid out a plan of, let's make sure we vocalize the needs, and then let's talk once you vocalize them, and once I did, and my partner sat there and said, you know, thank you for sharing this with me, here's some clarification because in my mind, I had filled in some holes for their side of the story that were not true. And they were kind of able to provide the, you know, correct filling for those holes. And, um, they made an effort to kind of meet my need. And, you know, my therapist showed me that, practicing the rupture and repair process, helps build trust and help build intimacy, but also, like, I was learning personally, that repair was possible. And so I had not experienced that in my background before. And I would say that, you know, I trust that person I trust, I think people in general, a little bit more, because I'm used to having to defend myself all the time and protect myself. And now like, I see that, you know, when those moments happen, that I can trust people to make an effort to put in the same kind of energy I am.
Ellecia 36:24
Oh my god, that's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. Yes, that is, I think that that's the like, the essential piece for really good clear communication and creating this a container of safety in a relationship is, is yes, the the ruptures are inevitable, right. Like they're gonna happen, you're gonna, you're gonna hurt your partner, we're because we're all human, it's just gonna happen. Like being able to sit down and listen to each other and hear the other person's point of view. I loved what you said, that they're a credible witness to their own experience. Fuck, yes, that's brilliant. But yeah, every time you're able to repair, every single time you're able to repair, it tells your nervous system, this is safe, I'm safe here, it's okay. And then every time it's not as big and upsetting and overwhelming, because you, you then have a lived experience of this is actually probably going to work out just fine.
Kyra 37:16
Yeah, I would say that, for me, abandonment, trauma is pretty heavy, I'm still working through it. And there's nothing like in getting into relationships that like forces you into a position where you have to practice the things that you've learned. So like all those years that I was single, I spent so much time in therapy, and I spent so much time learning about trauma and how to heal from it, and yada yada, yada. And the light bulb went off when I heard someone say that you have to have community around you so that you can actually practice what you're learning. And so engaging in a relationship where I practice, my partner goes on vacation, or they are not around me 24 seven, but they still come back and they still love me the same and they still adore me, you know, they the distance does not equal loss of connection, which has been a hard one for me. And I would say that didn't really get activated for me until like, kind of late after I'd been dating my partner for a while which I was really surprised at how for me It felt like it came out of nowhere. But I got to a place where I was struggling. And then I also got to the place where I realized that when we would hang out and they would leave I was not I was not feeling the drop as much like I would feel this almost like emotional high and like giddiness when they were around. And then when they left, there was kind of this drop. And for me it felt like it was just a loss of connection, right just the distance. And I have a tendency to date partners and have friends with build friendships with people that are introverted, require alone time and introspection time to be able to recharge themselves. It's something that I've had to practice with a lot of my relationships where I have to be able to like, be on my own sometimes, right? I have to find things to engage myself and maybe even use that time to be introspective and sit and learn about my own self and my own needs and wants. I have had to learn that that drops that sometimes that came after spending time with my partner didn't mean that you know, I was completely alone. Or that I'd be alone forever and just coming back and being able to do something else with them later in the week was has been really helpful. So there was so there's hope for those of you that experience. I have, um, I remember like one day I just realized that it had been a few times I had hung out with my partner and I wasn't wasn't feeling the drop. And I was like, Oh, I made some progress here.
Ellecia 39:57
I can completely relate. Yeah. It's kind of a like an anxious attachment thing to, to feel that, that loss of connection and I can completely relate. And it is, it's one of those things that you can start to heal. And when you're doing the work, it's amazing when you can look back and go, Oh shit, like I used to get really upset and really feel, feel this absence. And now I'm like, Oh, I'm actually just living my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
Kyra 40:24
Yeah, your nervous system has the ability to repair. Like, you have neuroplasticity, like your brain can rewire things, you know, you're building different, those different pathways, and you're learning how to use healthier coping mechanisms. It is hard, it takes time to develop, but you're so thankful for it when you start to see like the fruits of your labor show up. And so
Ellecia 40:46
they're worth it.
Kyra 40:47
Yeah, it's like you read those things. And then you have to, like actually do those things. It's very different, two different things, um, and learning about it can take work where it can be hard. Yeah,
Ellecia 40:59
totally. I remembered what it was. I was gonna say earlier, when you were talking about, like indigenous communities, and the cultures that have had, like, open relationships and walking marriages, and essentially polyamory built into those cultures for so long. And then we, specially Americans, especially white folks do not see that hardly at all. One of the people I was going to ask you, are you familiar with Kim TallBear?
Kyra 41:31
Yes, I am.
Ellecia 41:33
I love their work so much.
Kyra 41:35
Their work is amazing. I absolutely encourage anyone to get into that. And I first learned about their work actually in a relationship anarchist community. And so their workout referenced a bit and so I started engaging with it. And this is where I remembered. That's right. I do remember learning that the different, like different communities of color have always been engaging, and non monogamy, or like, just some communities of color are a lot more focused on or not focused on, but are just not patriarchal, like our society is. And it's really liberating to learn about it, you know, there is like credibility to people of color and their experiences and the way they move to the world. And the way that they do things works. Like, I think one of the biggest things when it comes to white supremacy is that my therapist calls it white narcissism, where everyone has this tendency to think that whiteness is the right way to do everything. So anything that falls in line with what that looks like, which is usually patriarchal, and etc, etc. People have a tendency to only establish credibility to just a very white lens. And so you look at communities of color and their experiences, and people have a tendency to discount it, you know, you hear people using language, like, that's ghetto, things like that, like they just discount it and kind of toss them off to the side. But those communities have been practicing non monogamy forever. And they're fine, and they're doing great, and their communities are thriving, even though it doesn't look like what you know, our society would stand like based on success, but their communities are healthy, and they're happy, and they're thriving, where they're at. And so, you know, it may not look like whiteness, and may not look like capitalism, but they're doing awesome. You know, learning to decolonize polyamory and kind of getting back in touch with just your roots, I think, for me has been really important, you know, being unapologetic about being a woman of color, being very unapologetic, when I do encounter racism and just kind of confronting it right then and there and, and being bold about that, you know, I don't let people talk to me a certain way and that it's taken a long time for me to develop the confidence to do that. But I don't have a problem removing people's access to me if they can't be respectful with their words, or if I have to ask them to be respectful and educate them and they choose not to engage with doing that work. And that's been hard because I have lost friends in the non monogamy community. I have absolutely lost friends there. One of my favorite things is asking for perspectives on non monogamy and then only asking people of color and I've done that a couple of times in like major non monogamous forums. If my question, you know, kind of hinges on my experience with being a woman of color, then I don't actually take in advice from white people about those experiences and that has a tendency to ruffle a lot of feathers I've gotten my posts and comments reported a lot for being divisive.
Ellecia 45:03
Am I being divisive or do I just have boundaries?
Kyra 45:06
Yeah, exactly. And so like being unapologetic about it, you know, experiencing racism like in my personal relationships and having to address it with friends and romantic partners, and being really unapologetic about No, I did experience this I'm not going to let you Gaslight me out of saying that, Oh, I'm so sorry. I guess that wasn't racist. You know, um, I remember going to a party, well it wasn't really a party was a dinner with a group of people that were non monogamous and had said something like, you know, America was built on the backs of slaves, and then immediately someone throws in, you know, that I wasn't that they tan darker than me. And, you know, just kind of like what I said made them feel uncomfortable. So now we have to figure out some way to knock me down a couple of notches. And to me, that's white supremacy, like trying to reassert yourself over the top of me. And so I think one of my biggest challenges has been, I used to be a major people pleaser, I would say, but I still do that. And, um, you know, I have a tendency to do like the fawning response and things like that. And so, it has been challenging for me in non monogamous circles to be viewed as like an aggressive, angry woman, because I speak out about issues that make people feel uncomfortable, and to kind of be labeled as like, she's too aggressive for our environment, and things like that. And to kind of take care of myself, I make sure that I am still engaging with like, communities of color, that are centered on non monogamy, because it's my safe space. And they understand, and I don't have to battle that as much there, but kind of just reminding myself that not everyone is for me, and I am not for everyone, and that I don't need someone else's validation for my experience to be real. And that, you know, I can take my own word and trust myself about the things that I've experienced and run with that. And so I would say that, you know, I've just been really unapologetic about kind of challenging people on their views and why they do things. And, like, I live in Seattle, which is a liberal, white area. And so a lot of the people that I meet on dating apps are white men. And so I will occasionally run into people saying what they think is really well meaning our intention, and then I kind of have to correct it right then and there. Because the reality is, is that if we are going to get engaged in a relationship, or a long term relationship, that relationship is going to be sustainable through you doing the work to unlearn those things, and being willing to hear what I have to say, that takes a lot of energy sometimes, right? can be exhausting. So I try to take care of myself.
Ellecia 47:57
Yeah, I read a quote is, this isn't a direct quote, cuz I didn't write it down or anything. But it was from Kevin Patterson, who wrote love not colorblind. And he had said, If I am in partnership with someone who's white, and they can't teach other white people about racism, then they aren't actually my partner. Yeah, I just thought that that was really lovely. Like, like, the the line like, here's what you have to meet, right?
Kyra 48:25
Yeah, I, for me, it has really been I'm just, I can only date, like people that are absolutely committed to character development is for me I think is really what it comes down to that as a base goes for anyone that I date, but for white people in particular, it does include like, um, it does include racism, and for the white men that I date, it's also going to include sexism, right? Like, and then there's, there's so much stuff that it's going to include and them not being uncomfortable with hearing like correction and things like that. I think that you don't know better until someone tells you right, so I try not to be shy about letting people know like what you said was racist, and what you said wasn't okay. So that was an opportunity for the growth is there, but how they respond to that is usually what I take into account. And I am not shy about letting people know if they're telling me that my experience isn't real. And just saying like, how do you have the ability to even gauge that right?
Ellecia 49:34
Yeah, you can't tell someone that they aren't hurt by what you said. Like You don't? You don't know what's going on for them.
Kyra 49:41
Yeah, yeah. And just yeah, I think the reality is, is that if you're white, like you're absolutely going to say something that's racist. It's, it just is what it is. You're going to do something that's racist, but having the humility to just listen and put in the effort to unlearn is the most important and also just, it costs energy on your partners, and when they have to educate you, and teach you how to do better. And I think respecting the energy that is put into that, and looking for some way to level that out, if you can, I think is really important. There's a huge thing in communities of color, where it's like, would you date a white person. And because like, sometimes people of color have dated white people, and you bring them to an event that is centered on that community of color, and then that white person says, or does something that's really out of pocket, and it shifts the atmosphere at the event, and then you're the person that brought that uneducated white person to an event that was supposed to be safe. And so being For me, being mindful of this kind of spaces that I bring my white partners to is really important, because at the end of the day, I'm also black. So just dating white partners that are committed to doing the work, I will say that one thing that I discovered that I did not know about myself recently is that I actually do have a limit of how many white partners I can have any given time I do, I do have like a limit. And I'm kind of gauging where that limit is at. It just there's a certain amount of energy and work that goes into dating someone that's white, and even the most well meaning well intentioned, woke white person that tries really hard, you know, messes up. And so it just hurts like it just it's different than someone that you don't know, that says something racist, it hits in a very personal place. And then you have to almost kind of step aside from your hurt and still give that energy to help that person understand how to do you better. It's really emotionally taxing. And so like, I've realized, like, there's a limit for me, like I can't, yeah, because I only have so much capacity. And so I have to honor that.
Ellecia 52:01
Yeah. And it's really wonderful that you can recognize that. Right? And like an honor that in yourself. I mean, we just we have this like lifetime of work ahead of us. I mean, more than a lifetime, we have this lifetime of each of us a lifetime of work ahead of us on, you know, just undoing so many of the things that we've been taught that we don't even know that that's what we were taught, because we just think like, that's just normal. That's just what everyone does, or says or, like, that's just normal. That's just my life. That's how I grew up. But we don't know what we don't know, right? And then and then, and then we're told like, Oh, this thing, you shouldn't say that, or you shouldn't do that, or you shouldn't believe this thing. And we're like, what, what do you mean? I don't understand. Right? And so it's like, it's like a lifetime of work that needs to go into like breaking the molds that we were formed in.
Kyra 52:53
Yeah, it is similar to unlearning monogamy, right?
Ellecia 52:57
Yes, exactly.
Kyra 52:59
Non monogamy you can hit some depressing moments where you know it's like how do I unlearn x y&z How do I unlearn codependency for instance, I think like especially for me healing from trauma and even just like in this even follows us decolonizing anything because I think that like in white supremacy in order for white supremacy to thrive there is forcing other communities to be co dependent on them so I feel like white supremacy white supremacy becomes dependent right on the people that have forced us to serve under it under itself. So when you get into non monogamy like you you learn very quickly that codependency does not work very well. And I'm sure you'll do like episodes on and couples privilege and things like that, but oh my goodness, like, it's so funny because, you know, I do a lot of research on things. So before I even engaged in non monogamy, I researched my little heart out. And so I knew what couples privilege was, I knew the very classic signs of what it looks like and then you get and then you date someone that's you know, you date someone or you you know someone that's married and is engaging in non monogamy and you realize that couples privilege presents in literally everything is always there, um, and learning how to navigate that. It's been intense. But as far as like codependency, I would say coming from a background where I was raised in a lot of trauma and I was very codependent on the people that put me in that kind of environment. I've almost come to like, despise it. In a sense, because I feel like it made me very weak and vulnerable to people that did not have my best interests at heart. And I do say that some of my attraction to relationship anarchy and polyamory comes from me not wanting to be codependent And so and there's a balance there like being having healthy community and having a healthy amount of reliance and dependency on healthy people that you're in community with, and then not overdoing it. Right? There's like, there's a line.
Ellecia 55:15
Yeah. So you don't want to go hard and dependent you want interdependence.
Kyra 55:19
Exactly, yes, that's the word. So like, you know, your actions. And the things that you say and do does affect other people. And you are responsible for the ways that you've harmed others. But also, you're responsible for the ways that you've taken care of others, right. And being intentional about taking care of the people that are in your neighborhood, in your community in your space. I think that's really important. And I think if you walk into non monogamy with the mindset of, it's just me, and I'm on an island, and I only affect myself, I think that you're gonna have a very hard time. I think you may have to have a reckoning point where you realize that some of the ways some of the methods that you've used to promote that may have harmed other people that, you know, maybe you weren't intentionally trying to harm them. But yeah, I feel like a lot of the harmful stuff I've seen happen in non monogamy is from people kind of engaging in what has been called emotional libertarianism. So it's where it's this idea that you're not responsible for the way that you affect others is kind of very basic.
Ellecia 56:35
Yes, like a lot of that, like, like, you're responsible for your own emotions, and how you how you, you know, and it's funny, when I was growing up, my mom would say that to me, like nobody else can make you feel a certain way. Like, like, you get to decide. And I mean, like, but I didn't understand it. Right. And I think that's what happens is people don't understand that there's, there's a balance and a fine line, like, like, yes, you You are in control of your inner world, in the sense that, like, you get to set up your own boundaries, and you get to choose who you let in and you get to choose who you allow to influence you. But like, also, you can't just, you're not an island.
Kyra 57:16
Right, exactly.
Ellecia 57:18
Your going to impact other people.
Kyra 57:21
Yeah, like any kind of like, leadership position I've been in or just engaging in non monogamy like, I feel like it's taught me a lot of humility in the sense of like, being quick to listen and quick to just apologize. Like if someone says that you've hurt them. Like, and not apologizing just to get it done and over with, but like, listening to what someone has to say, and then offering your apology, and trying to understand their perspective, that can go such a long way. Like sometimes it sucks for us. And we have to realize, like, oh, I've done something that hurts someone else. But you know, the realities and your human being, it's inevitable, it will happen. And so, you we have to just kind of predetermine, like, what kind of people are we going to be when someone says like, You hurt me?
Ellecia 58:13
It is, it's like, I think that might be part of why we're here is just to spend our lives growing and becoming better, better humans.
Kyra 58:22
Yeah. And that has sometimes been hard for me because I came from a home where I was made responsible for everything. And so sometimes I can see my resistance to being like, I don't want to be responsible for everything. Everything is not my fault. And so, like, again, staying in therapy has helped me get a better balance at being responsible for what is mine, and then not taking on the labor of other people, right, like you're not a pack mule for other people's emotional labor. And I feel like if you're dating anyone that is a cis het man, like I would say like because of sexism in our society and our patriarchal views. I would say that in general, their partners take on a lot of emotional labor just in teaching how to do things or just how to give emotional labor and then if you are a person of color, like you know not allowing yourself to be that emotional labor pack mule for other people's like white guilt or taking always taking on the labor of teaching people how to not be racist, sometimes you can tell them to go read a book or go read an article go figure it out, or require them to pay you for your time honestly.
Ellecia 59:37
I'm curious if Do you have anything that just comes to mind? Any resources for people to start that work of decolonizing polyamory
59:50
Okay, so definitely Kim TallBear or not Yeah, so definitely Kim TallBear. Love is not Colorblind is another another good one by Kevin Patterson. I believe his last name is Patterson .Yeah, yeah, okay, um, that one's. And then, and I suggest this lightly. If you are on Facebook and you enjoy jumping into Facebook groups, there is a huge group called Black and poly. And that group is open to black people and to allies. So they don't can't it's not a group that's only for black people. But the the, the the few things that I would say is that if you choose to come into that space, please remember that you are a listener first. And that before you attempt to participate in anything, number one, like please make sure that you've done the work and that you know what you're talking about. And number two, if you are inclined to argue with any black person on about anything dealing with their experience, don't. You know, again, they're credible witnesses to their experience, but sometimes just sitting and watching the things that black people say, or just any person of color says, and just, you know, there may be things that you do that you didn't even realize was causing a drain on someone else's energy, you can learn a lot by just listening. So engaging in there. Polysecure is a fantastic book. And it is not extensive on talking about decolonizing non monogamy but it does touch on it. And so I do think it's important. I do think that that would qualify as a good reference. It'll be good for you anyways, um,
Ellecia 1:01:32
Everybody should read that book. It's the best relationship book written.
Kyra 1:01:36
Yeah. It is fantastic. And at the moment, that is pretty much what I would. What I could recommend that is non monogamy centered. But I will tell you that any book or article that is written by a person of color, just on their experience in general is going to help right because you're learning about how to communicate with people of color, you're learning what their experience is like so you can be aware of how you move in their space. I can give you a list of people that I engage with online. There's polyamorous while Asian there's polyamorous black girl. Lavitaloca. Okay, so Lavidaloca Sawyer is a fantastic research. And she's a phenomenal black woman that has talked a lot about non monogamy. Um, there is a nother one called Polyphilia. Is that how you say that?
Ellecia 1:02:31
Yeah, yeah, I think. Australia, I think, right.
Kyra 1:02:36
Yeah. And she's a woman of color, and her polyamory stuff is pretty, pretty on point and then Red Table Talk. Which, yeah, if you go to Red Table Talk, there is an episode on polyamory. And they feature a woman named Gabrielle Smith, and her content is fantastic as well. And then on Instagram, Apparently not. Um, but I will I will send you I guess a list. I guess I could say you can post it with, with the with the podcast. And yeah, so be looking for that, at least you will. We'll link all that information up for you.
Ellecia 1:03:22
I love I love the suggestion of like, just following and listening and in, in these communities and spaces. That's been probably the most powerful for me. Just listening, just watching the conversations that are happening. And in particular watching when white people are called out and then they lash out and get defensive and just watching like, this dumpster fire that goes downhill. Like almost every time I'm like, holy shit, like you started out like you sounded like you really were well meaning and just kind of confused. And then all of the sudden you sound like a really terrible person. How did that happen?
Kyra 1:04:05
It's really activated. Yeah. Yeah, it is eye opening. You're totally right. I'm so sorry for cutting you off. I would say like it, you know, like, like I mentioned earlier, like, racism, it literally permeates through everything. And so just simple things like kind of white people using anger as a means to scare a person of color into submission after they've been after their behavior has been addressed, or they've been called up for something or being spoken over by white people that are trying to get their point across and maybe my point of view conflicted with theirs and so they kind of step over me or having some of my verbiage like co opted or having people explained to me what I must have really meant and the one thing that I like I deal with a lot. In non monogamy circles, in particular are white tears, particularly from white women, I, that one I think has hurt me the most. Because again, like I struggle with this thing where people want to set me up as this really aggressive person, where it's like she attacks and she harasses. And it's like I just said something that made you feel uncomfortable, you know. And so, like, I don't think that I've ever really experienced as much in any other community where the second a white woman cries, I am like, the evil is evil person that attacks like this white woman. And those tears can be weaponized pretty efficiently. And it can be really harmful. I would say, for me personally, like, just emotionally and mentally, for my nervous system can be pretty rapid stuff like that and I. that's a that's a pretty sensitive topic for me. But being mindful that if you're engaging with a person of color, and non monogamy, and they say something, and you're tempted to get angry, and lash out, or cry, to just pause for five seconds, and you know, there's nothing wrong with crying, but you do have to be aware that those tears are weaponized because of the system that were built up on, right? Removing yourself and taking a moment to think about it. And again, just not questioning a person of colors experience. Like, I feel like what you're talking about where people start off really well meaning, and maybe they're just asking a question, and then like a personal color comes in and like answers the question. And because they're a person of color, the tone is perceived to be more dangerous than if a white person would have said it. And then all of a sudden, the white person is like, you're, you know, either they like get really angry, and they blow up at you. And then they start to like, dismiss your perspective. And they get angry, and they come for you with the torches, or they start crying. And then you have other white people that join in the thread and start patting the other the crying person on the back. And all of a sudden, you're the evil person that came in and said that, you know, America was built on the backs of slaves. Whatever it is that you said, and, you know, yeah, it's if if a person of color says that you've said something that's racist, they're right. Like this. It's okay. Like,
Ellecia 1:07:22
Yeah, and you just go. Oh, I said that thing? Yeah. Let me figure that out. Oh, thank you, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. And like, yeah, and to educate people, myself included, I like I said, I've I've watched a lot of these conversations happen in real time. And, and you are brilliant in your, but one, the eloquence and the way that you speak to people and the patience that you have, and the effort you put into educating people. It's, I mean, it's brilliant. But it's also like, I can see like, there's so much energy that goes into it. And I mean, and it's not just racism, it's sexism, it's deconditioning, monogamy, it's all of these things, and being able to come in and say, say something in this really clear way that honors everybody's humanity is a total gift. I love to watch you do that.
Kyra 1:08:29
Thank you, I totally needed that. Because I will say that, like, it gets so draining sometimes. And I've actually had to remove myself from some communities, just because the onslaught was too much. And it almost gets to a point where you feel like you're like this one person trying to fight a tidal wave. And so like, in the effort of self preservation, I've removed myself and like, you know, from my perspective, I never know if like, the stuff I'm saying is like, seen in a positive light. And so it helps to hear, like, hear those things. But you can see that I do take the intention to acknowledge everyone's humanity, right. I'm not just going off and to like, disparage people, I will go off but but you know, I do acknowledge the humanity and I try to move with empathy and compassion. And I understand that sometimes, white people just genuinely don't know. And like, they're just going through the, like, someone's disrupted my ego and my perspective on this, and it feels uncomfortable, and I haven't done enough work to learn how to respond to that in a healthy way. Like, I know that the response is more about this more speaks more about their own selves than it does me. But it still hurts. Still takes a lot of energy sometimes. So
Ellecia 1:09:43
yeah. Because, again, human. Yeah.
Kyra 1:09:49
Yeah, exactly.
Ellecia 1:09:50
Yeah, you're beautiful and wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yes. Thank you.
Kyra 1:09:57
Yeah, thank you for creating the space.
Ellecia 1:09:59
Ah, you're welcome!