Hey, everybody. Welcome to non trivial. I'm your host, Sean McClure. In this episode, I challenge the idea that discipline is what's needed to achieve successful outcomes. Discipline requires we act against our instincts and willpower. Anything so opposed to our natural evolution can't be right. I believe that what looks like discipline in successful individual goals is really just the behavior people take on when they put themselves in the right environment.
I argue that the most important decision we can make regarding how to accomplish anything is what environment to place ourselves in. Let's get started. Damage would probably agree that a certain amount of discipline in life is a good thing. You can look at people who appear. To be more disciplined and it looks like some, you know, good things are going on in their life, right? It might be related to health and nutrition. Maybe someone has got a pretty good physique.
They obviously go to the gym a lot. And it looks like this is someone who has a decent amount of discipline in their life because they're going to. Have to get up every morning, or. Maybe they go every second day, whatever it is. But they're obviously kind of dedicated to going to a particular area that allows them to lift the weights or run on the treadmill or do a little. Bit of both, whatever it is. And this looks like a disciplined individual. If you look at someone who has.
Maybe an advanced degree in education, you. Might say, wow, that must have taken. A lot of discipline. That person had to go through, obviously quite a number of years of advanced education. And that's no easy task. There's a number of exams to pass. There's in a lot of cases, genuine research to do and maybe the publication or defense rather of a thesis at. The end of it that would take a lot of dedication.
Different people's vocations right, their jobs where they find themselves in life in just about any kind of definition of success, whether that's just being content, being happy, or maybe it's a bit of financial. Success again, health, nutrition, maybe some kind. Of peace of mind or whatever it is. When you look at a person who seems to have accomplished a decent amount. In their life, we would usually attribute that to discipline. And most of us probably agree that.
Discipline is a pretty good thing. That makes sense. And what is discipline? Discipline is just generally the ability to stick to something for a long period of time, right? And more specifically, maybe it's kind of a habit or a set of steps. That we come up with on a regular basis. Maybe every day we get up, and maybe the discipline is to get up early. And then maybe we have a schedule that we kind of follow.
And we believe that if we follow that schedule and we do this every day, that the good outcomes are going. To well, there's going to be good. Outcomes from that, right? And that's discipline the ability to remain fixed on kind of a habitual set of steps throughout our day in the hopes that it will lead to something good. And it seems like people who do. That are quite disciplined. And again, I think we would agree that discipline is probably a good thing to have in life.
We could debate how much, but in general, discipline seems like a good thing. I think a lot of us work towards that. I think that we all kind of feel like maybe we should have more discipline in life because there's a lot of things that we want to do that we want to accomplish, and we know it takes a great deal of. Effort to do that. We might want to learn a second, third or fourth language. We might want to get better at, I don't know, calculus or random matrix theory.
We might want to be better at public speaking. We might want to have more muscle. We might want to lose weight. We know it takes a good deal of effort to accomplish this, and you've got to kind of get up every day and apply yourself to it. So mentally, it seems that discipline is what we need. But is it really discipline that is leading to good outcomes? It seems to make sense, seems almost obvious that you got to get up every day and follow a set of steps, and you got to do that.
Even if your steps change and you. Keep kind of rejiggering it to something. Different, it's still discipline, right? It's still the ability to kind of go against maybe what we would more naturally be inclined to do. But that's what I take issue with. This idea that in order to have successful outcomes, you have to go against. That which you are naturally inclined to do. I don't know if I don't believe that's actually the case. And I'm going to argue in this.
Episode that successful outcomes are not actually. Coming from what look like discipline. In fact, when you look at someone. Who'S getting more muscle by going to. The gym all the time or losing weight, maybe eating healthy, maybe they're meditating, maybe they're learning another language and they're kind of following these steps, they're dedicated to some kind of almost formula, if. You will, every day, even though it looks like that.
I don't think it's actually discipline that is reflecting that kind of behavior, what we observe. I think it's something different. Okay, but I'll get into that in a bit. What I mean but for now, let's. Just talk about how unnatural discipline seems and that this is kind of problematic. Because I'm a big fan. I talk about a lot on nontrivial, how we really need to align ourselves to nature, to what is natural. I think when we do things that. Are more commensurate with our natural surroundings.
And the way we have evolved over. Millions of years of hominid evolution that. That makes a lot more sense that we will actually be far more capable, whatever it is, learning languages, being more. Fit, being healthy, being what looks like discipline, right? But I don't think it's discipline because discipline is very unnatural. Now, why is it unnatural? Because it goes against how we feel, right? I mean, we think of discipline as kind of working against our more natural inclinations.
00 every morning, the alarm goes off. I'm still tired. My body is kind of sending me signals that maybe I should still sleep. But we fight against that and then we get up.
00 a.m. And that's your thing. More power to you. But you could take a number of. Examples where this is the case where either the alarm is going off at.
00 A.m. Or the book that you're. Supposed to read is staring you in the face, or the course that you need to take is on your computer. It'S on a bookmark. You look at your calendar and says you're supposed to study this or do. This or go to the gym. It's going against how we naturally feel. And I think that's kind of the point of discipline, at least how we interpret it.
Some people might define discipline slightly differently, but the majority of us, we've kind of culturally defined discipline as this thing. It goes against the way we naturally feel. That's why you're fighting. That's why we tend to think it's a good thing. In other words, discipline itself kind of seems like an accomplishment, right? Because the people who are able to rise above their motivations and not just. Rely on how they feel that particular.
Day, but they kind of go against that and they believe in something bigger. That's noteworthy. That's to be commended, right? It's commendable that someone could rise above. Their kind of the basic instincts and. Just apply that discipline every day, but. It still speaks to the fact that it's unnatural. Why would the human body evolve and the human mind for millions of years the way it does?
Why would our natural, whether it's being tired, not being in the mood for something, maybe wanting to take a different approach to being physically active or to learning a language, maybe it's more natural. To the system is kind of saying. Here'S what it takes to gain muscle or to lose weight. But actually what I would rather do is go for the canoe ride or. Go swim in the lake or do. Something, whatever it is, right? Or maybe the gym is what you find naturally attractive.
But a lot of times what we want to do naturally, especially in the. Moment, goes against the recipe approach of discipline, right? And something seems off here that doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem commensurate with nature. And so what I'm going to argue now is that when you look at successful outcomes in people, I don't think it's really discipline, even though it looks like discipline. I think what it is, is people placing themselves in the right environment.
So we are adaptive creatures, right? We arise to the challenge. And if you put yourself in the right environment, you tend to take on those kinds of habits, those kinds of behaviors of your surroundings, the ones that are just commensurate with that environment. And then if you're in it enough and you keep pushing, you tend to be fairly successful at it. So maybe what looks like discipline when.
00 every morning, maybe. They'Re in an environment where it kind of makes sense to do so. I don't know what that is. I guess the farm might be an example, right? Like somebody maybe they literally hear the rooster going off. Or just the nature of the work is that you kind of get up early. Because if you don't, there's going to be some consequences to not doing that. Right? If I don't get up early, I'm not going to be able to whatever it is, ten the pigs or stack the hay or whatever it is you're.
Doing on a farm. And if I do that too late, I'm going to run out of time for the other. It's not so much that it's discipline, even though it looks like discipline, this is a very disciplined person. They're getting up early. They're tending to all these tasks across the farm. It's the fact that they're in the. Farm, they're on the farm. It's the fact that they want to make money by being on the farm, by whatever it is, raising the cattle. And tending the pigs and selling the.
Wheat or selling the meat or whatever it is. It's being immersed in the environment that makes what looks like discipline just a natural byproduct of being in that environment, right? Someone can look very physically fit. Maybe they do a lot of what we would call cardio, right? They're doing a lot of running, but. Maybe they have a really beautiful trail in their backyard and they love running in the nature and they love kind of working up a sweat. And it's more about actually having fun.
And doing what you're interested in and. Having an environment that almost kind of forces you to do it. But forces isn't really the right word. It's just kind of something that stares you in the face and when you get up and you look at that trail and you look at that running path and you see the other people that are running on the path, it's kind of like, why wouldn't I do the same, right? It's an environment thing. You're in the environment that compels you.
To take on a behavior that a lot of people would say is discipline. I think you see this a lot. In learning as well. Somebody might just be really attracted to learning about different cultures. And it's kind of interesting to think about the different languages that they speak and they might want to immerse themselves in those cultures because maybe they like. To travel or they just like to learn.
And then as a byproduct, they end up learning one or two additional languages because they kind of have to speak it to really know the culture. Right. You can't pick up on the nuances unless you really learn the language. You can't just have someone translating all. The time because that's too slow. It's not so much that they wanted to learn the other language. They probably did, but it wasn't like.
A disciplined approach, well, now I'm going to go get that language app, and I'm going to study every day and practice every day. It wasn't this kind of slowed down recipe formulaic approach. It was just immersing yourself in the culture because you like culture, you want to learn. I want to talk to these people. I want to know the nuances of. How they do things. And as byproduct of that, I end. Up, quote unquote, practicing the language every day. But it's not in that academic sense.
It's not because you're poring over books. And studying syntax and grammar of the other language. It's because you're immersed, right? And you can use this for any example. People who write a lot. I would argue if you kind of are in an environment where maybe you're. Communicating with a lot of other writers. Or maybe there's this expectation in your workplace to write a blog post every day or every two days or every. Week, and it just kind of ends.
Up being a byproduct of being in the right environment. And I think that's what it is. I think that when we look at. What appears to be discipline in people doing things that we're not, but maybe that we want to be doing right, we're not physically fit enough. And I think about what it takes to be as physically fit as that person. I'm looking at someone that seems to have a lot of discipline. I wish I could speak five different languages.
And when I look at that, wow, that person must have really taken the. Time to do that, and therefore they must be disciplined. Nutrition, any example you can think of. And it could even be like meditation or something contemplation. And this individual has a very steady mind, maybe a very calm mind. And even when things get really flustered. They seem to kind of be able. To break down the situation in a. More kind of calm and maybe rational. Way, whatever it is.
And man, that must take a lot of discipline because they're spending time on introspection every day in quiet contemplation, whatever it is, and so that's a disciplined mind. Everything just kind of looks like discipline when it's not something that we're doing ourselves, but that we want to do. Right. I think I talked about in a previous episode about kind of like that target based life, right?
It's good to have, let's say, heroes, whether that's in fiction or just people, you know, because they show you what's possible and they often reflect behaviors that. You yourself want to take on, right? I'm not big on hero worship by any means, but it's good to have kind of individuals you can look at. And say, yeah, it's not exactly who. I want to be, but there's attributes. Or characteristics of those individuals that I. Think would suit me. There's that kind of true self versus.
Maybe the other kind of self. The true self is the person that. You might not be right now, but it is still the true you because you want to become that person, right? So we look at different people doing different things, and I should speak more than one, two, whatever, languages. I should be more physically fit. I maybe do want to get up early or whatever it is. But I think it's when you're looking.
At those people, it's because you're looking at people who have placed themselves in the right environment and they might not even know that. They might not even be thinking about. It in those terms, right? It might be a military person who's. Going on about how important discipline is, right. But what maybe they're failing to realize is that you are in the military, right? You're in this environment where there is that group cohesion of many individuals doing the drills.
You are in an environment where there is this expectation that you're going to show up on highly complex and highly. Uncertain scenes and be able to still. Perform and be able to rescue or to defend or to fight or whatever it is. And you're constantly being kind of brought up and placed into that environment. So it's almost like, how could you. Not have these behaviors that look like discipline? How could you not be physically fit? I mean, even a prison or something.
Somebody might come out more physically fit from a prison. Why is that? Did they take on a bunch of new discipline in the prison? Well, no, it's probably because there wasn't. Much else to do but lift weights. And eat food and I don't know. They might even come out more wise. Because maybe there wasn't much more to do than contemplate. Or maybe there's a negative version of this. Right. But the point is that if you.
Place yourself in the right environment, you're going to take on what looks like discipline naturally, because that's how people are. Humans are not really about following recipes. There's a reason why what we think. Of as discipline feels unnatural because it is unnatural. It's not really how people work. And so again, as I'm arguing in this episode, I don't think it's discipline that you're looking at when you see people dedicating themselves and persevering something, in.
Something to the point that they have a successful outcome. You could chalk my PhD up to discipline. And in some sense, yeah, that does make sense. It did take a lot of work. I did have to persevere for a. Number of years, and I had to. Do original research and publish articles and. Defend a thesis in front of a. Panel of experienced professors and all this kind of stuff. So was that discipline? It doesn't feel as much as discipline. As it was just what I was.
Naturally interested in doing and what I thought was fun and what I was eager to just kind of accomplish. More to the point, being in an. Institution that facilitated that kind of behavior, right? For better or worse, right? You're in an institution and you're expected to do research. You're talking to other researchers. You have a lab staring you or whatever it is, or a computer staring you in a face every day with the expectation that you do this kind of work.
You're in an environment where what looks like discipline is going to be a natural byproduct. And if you do that for five plus years, you're going to get the PhD, assuming you have the undergrad. Right? So it's kind of just a natural byproduct of being in the environment. I've always kind of liked the social aspect of going to the gym. Not that I'm necessarily particularly fit, but. Whatever fitness I do happen to have. I like kind of being in the gym and being around people.
Even if you're not talking to them. And being in that environment you're seeing. Other people kind of sweat and work out and be determined to lift the heavy weights, and it's kind of impossible not to do the same thing yourself. You're not just going to stand there and do nothing or walk on a. Treadmill and not get the heart rate up. You're in an environment and if you like just going to the gym in the first place, even more than working out, then guess what?
More often than not, you're going to be working out and achieving some level of fitness. Right? So education, fitness, I use the language example, the farm example, whatever it is, things that look like discipline, in my opinion, are really just placing yourself into the right environment. Don't worry about fighting against. So actually, what it is I would say is that it's not fighting against something natural, right.
It's actually doing what is quite natural and commensurate with nature and complexity, which is to adapt to our surroundings. In other words, the choices that we should be making in life are not. So much what discipline do I need? Or what set of steps should I be following every day? Regardless of my level of motivation? I think it's? What environment should you be placing yourself in? This is what we need. We need to place ourself into the right environment. That's the decision point.
That's what's natural. That's what will be fun. That's what will feel good. I don't think looking at someone who. Gets really fit is looking at someone who kept fighting their natural instincts or motivations. I think they were following what was. Fun and what was good to be. Around, because they placed themselves in the right environment. The decision point is around the environment, not some set of steps that go against how you feel that go against your motivation.
So let me use kind of another example. If we think of maybe the quintessential kind of example of discipline, you might. Think of, like, sages from, like, thousands of years ago or something, right? Or, I don't know, someone like Socrates. Or know, we think about some of. These philosophies, like Stoicism and things like this, or whatever it is. I mean, any religion can choose their. Kind of particular person or historian, right?
And you look at people from maybe thousands of years ago, and they kind. Of get portrayed as, like, the sage. Or someone being really wise. And they must have been very, very disciplined, right? They must have been living a life. Where they avoided the temptations and they maybe stuck to a strict diet and maybe were doing nothing but contemplation in a cave for, like, years on end. Or something like this. And it appears as a very, very strict discipline. And how did they achieve that discipline?
But let's also keep in mind that there wasn't a whole lot else to do, and there was nowhere near the. Number of temptations or things that could. Distract you that there are today. I mean, that's just the reality. Today. We have the Internet. We have the supermarket aisles. You can get any food. Things are constantly in your face. And whether it's physical or food or. Sexual or whatever it is, we're just. Absolutely bombarded with these messages. And to be disciplined today would be.
In a completely different category of discipline than what it would have been back in the day. I'm not saying there weren't challenges back in the day. I'm sure there were, especially related to survival and things like this. But the reality is, if you look at the environment of the so called. Sages from the past, they weren't coming. Up against the absolute onslaught of stimulation that we have today. And again, let's think about the definition of discipline.
We tend to think of it as something that kind of goes against it's almost like the avoidance of temptation, right? You could think of discipline as just. Being kind of summarized in that sense, right? The temptation to sleep in, the temptation to overeat, the temptation to just sit. There instead of exercise, the temptation to. Just kind of do something that might seem more natural, where, in fact, the. Discipline would fight against that.
But if you think about the sages or whatever you want to call them. From thousands of years ago, they didn't. Have all those things. And so the reason why I'm saying. This, it doesn't mean they're any less of a person, but I don't think. They were particularly successful in their whatever it is, meditation or contemplation or being wise. I don't think that was the case because of discipline.
I think it's because they were placed in this environment that was absolutely commensurate with that kind of behavior. Not everybody, obviously you still had the people that deviated and did the wrong. Things, but the ones who were particularly. Successful were in that environment. And I think it is that much. Harder today to be in the right environment. But it's much better to know that the decision is about placing yourself in. The environment than it is to think.
That the decision is about fighting against. That which you naturally feel. Okay. I think the decision point is about. Choosing the environment as opposed to trying to come up with a set of things that you may or may not be motivated for. And I think this is good news, because I don't think what I'm saying. Is I don't think it takes going against what you're motivated in to be successful. I think you can actually achieve success. By choosing the right environment, whatever version.
Of success that might be. So I think it just comes down to making decisions about the environment that you want to place yourself in, as. Opposed to trying to figure out what. Kind of supposed discipline you need to accomplish the outcome. Put yourself in the environment. Put yourself in the environment before you have any so called discipline or skills or whatever you think is necessary to accomplish the outcome. The primary decision is to just put. Yourself into the environment.
If you want to learn a language, put yourself in an environment where the only way you could survive is to learn that language. If you want to be fit, put. Yourself in an environment where every day. You get up or every few days. You get up the equipment or whatever, or the trail is staring you in the face and there's other people involved. Become part of a group that motivates each other, and it just becomes a. Lifestyle that this is what you do. There's no way that you could not be fit.
If you want to learn a particular topic or whatever it is, maybe you need to join an institution, or maybe. You need to join some group. There's all kinds of examples. But the point is, the decision to make is to put yourself in the. Environment and then let the rest fall in place. And I think when you look at people who are successful in any definition of success, it's not because they are disciplined. It's not because they are able to.
Rise above their emotions or get away from relying on willpower and somehow just stick to some logical structure in life. And as long as they do that every day, then eventually the good stuff happens. I don't think that's what it is. I think that's what it looks like. To a lot of people, because that's. How we tend to think things happen. That's how we think successful outcomes happen. There must be a set of steps to get there, but it's not a. Recipe approach like that.
I think it's just people being in the right environment where the success or the behavior that you want to attain, the characteristics that you want to have. Are a natural byproduct of surviving there. Okay, so choose the environment. Pick what you want to become and choose the environment that will get you there. And that's it. Okay, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time. Take care. Pal. Oisha.