Why don't men ask follow up questions?

I'm Manny Noah, and this is no such thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually doing the research. On today's episode, we're asking why men don't ask follow up questions. We're gonna be talking to masculinity expert Liz Plank, who helps Noah, Devon and I figure out how much we actually know about each other.

You should know who their axes like, who their like last breakup was with.

That's interesting and gives us a very special assignment. There's no no such thing such thing. All right, boys, I think we're all congested up today. Apologies to the listeners.

Sounds sexy today, sound a little nasty.

It is funny. We're all how did this happen? At the same time. I haven't seen you guys.

In a while, and then it's been a minute.

I wanted to start off this episode by playing a TikTok.

I'm going to order a beerd woman.

Now, I'm good.

I just got out of rehab, right, Okay, So how Samantha, how's married life?

Oh?

I didn't tell you we got divorced.

You want to put together like a little parlay for this weekend?

Hell? Yes?

What do you want to do It's like fifty dollars something. I just got fired from the firm last week. Maybe it was two twenty five. Fuck it, Fuck it, dude, I got hit by a city bus last month.

All had the settlement.

Money just came in.

I got you.

Yeah. So that video is a joke, obviously it's hyperbolized. Yeah, but it's still resonated with me because I've definitely been there before, Like I've like we have male friendships like this. I would like to think that the three of us are like a different breed of man, like a morse, like a like more sensitive, I think than the average person. Who we do ask each other follow up questions. We

Watching that video, I was thinking, like last week I was I had a call with a friend of ours that we used to work with, and you know, then we're just chatting and and he was like, oh yeah, like you know, like my wife's having our second kid in April. And it was like he was like, oh yeah, I wasn't sure if I mentioned that or not. And it was like, oh, like that's a pretty big big

Kid in three months.

Yeah, I'd be shocked for It's like, oh, yeah, I guess it just means we don't really talk that much.

Yeah, do you guys have like close friends who you think this kind of applies to this, this phenomenon, I guess you'd call it.

I don't like the prize, so I think it's different.

If it comes up in conversation, I will ask follow up questions if that person brings it up themselves, yeah yeah. But if someone doesn't come to me with the information, I'm not someone who's gonna ask that question. That's like going to make somebody uncomfortable.

That that's exactly how I feel, And I think that's to me, that's what it is, Like, I'm.

Overall a pretty live and let live sort of.

Yeah, guys, So it's like if someone wants to talk to me about something serious or whatever, like whatever, Like I hope I'm receptive and you know, someone they'd feel comfortable talking to me about anything. Yeah, but like, yeah, I don't want to put someone on the spot in that way if they don't want to open up to me in that way, because that's how I kind of feel where and sometimes there's things where it is helpful for someone to kind.

Of push you, yeah, to be like it.

Yeah, I mean this is just it is good usually to listen, yeah, be pushed into maybe an uncomfortable conversation of course, and open.

Up in that way.

But yeah, like in a normal setting, it's it is uncomfortable, and I don't want to put that on someone else.

To do it, like if they don't want to naturally.

You know, how much of this do you think is gendered? Like the other day, I was listening to my girlfriend talk on the phone with her sisters about I don't know, like our week, and she was really going into detail about certain things that I was like, no, not nothing like offensive, but no, no, it was just like oh wow, And then I thought about if I talked to my siblings and they asked me how my week went, I'd be like, it was good, it went to work, Yeah, yeah, everything was fine.

Oh yeah.

I noticed this all the time.

When I talk to my mom, she tells details about like what she's done for today, or just like a story at least sometimes I'm like, okay, I don't even.

Know that level of detail.

Yeah, but she yeah, she'll go into she'd be like, oh, yeah, you know, I pulled them in the park lot and then this thing happened, and then I was talking to this person and they said this thing. And to your point, when I'm talking to people, like if people are I'm like kind of straight into the point because I'm always thinking they don't care about this. Yeah, let me just say what's essential. I think you know, this is you know,

Yeah, and contextualizing things before the story even begins.

Yes, So like I run into this a lot with my.

Sister or with me, where like there's a lot of like lore that happens first and then you get the story that whereas I would just start for exactly the beginning of the story before we.

Even get into it. You got to know that, like.

Yeah, yeah, but then it's ends up being helpful.

It's like much better storytellers that.

No.

Yeah, I've definitely had a like similar situations where you know, I'm hanging out with some guy friend and then I go home and you know, I'm talking to my girlfriend and I'm you know, say, oh, like he told me this about X y Z. And then she's like, oh, and what about you know, a normal follow up and it's like, yeah, I don't know, I didn't ask kind of none of my business, I guess, but.

Yeah, maybe you can find out when he's.

Maybe you can ask the followup questions.

We all getdrinks together, and yeah, we can get to the bottom of Yah, it's like didn't come up.

So you know, it's not just a meme, right, there's like a lot of a lot of literature on this. As a few examples, Bustle dot com head why don't men ask me more questions on dates? So there we've been talking about conversations with friends, but a lot of this phenomenon seems to be in the dating world. Uh, San Diego Magazine, Why don't men ask questions on apps?

Courts?

The gendered way we ask questions is terrible for both men and women. And so it's definitely something that's like real and happening.

I feel most of the conversation or literature I've seen around this has been more so in terms of dating.

I've seen less sort of.

Conversations around well until more recently friendships, which I find to be more interesting.

I think.

I don't know. For me, it's like the.

Dating thing is just so many, so easy to ask follow us because you don't know anything about this person.

That's all you have.

Yes, that's more confusing to me.

So you're you're either monologuing yes and not asking anything about the other person or yeah, I mean yeah, it's like there's not really much else you can do, and one person is just gonna literally talk the entire time, which happens, I suppose.

And look, and maybe we should get people who have dated or went on dates of all of us. Yeah, response, because obviously we're biased, because we're saying.

Oh, on dates, we all ask follow up questions.

Yeah, but it's us. Well, I certainly remember, like years ago, I was we didn't even go on a date, but I was we were like kind of it was leading to a date, I think. And I remember, uh, that woman telling a friend of mine that I talked too much or something in our in our interaction. Oh, but then I remember, I just remembered it totally differently. So just to your point about like the bias that we have in our own heads, we're probably so interesting to ourselves in our heads.

Maybe the people were dating or like these dudes don't ask any following Yeah.

Yeah, And I think there's probably something to it where in a dating scenario where you don't know the other person, I can think of dates I've been on where I think I've overtalked in a way because the other person seems to not be maybe giving me anything. So it's like, well, that's just what it is, and then got nothing you know, spoiler,

And the other reason I'm more interested in this dynamic when it comes to friends than dating is because dating it there's so many variables of like people are nervous on dates, they might be doing things they wouldn't normally do when you're when if it's your friend who you've known for years and you still aren't asked follow up questions,

Well, yeah, there's a time and place for things too. I mean that's a lot of it too, where it's like, yeah, of course it's great to everyone should have some people they can open up to and talk to. At the same time, you don't want to be the guy who every time you're getting dinner, now it's like you're hearing all my drama and my deep.

You know, it's like not everyone needs to be that for every person, or should.

Be so as a little as a little uh game. I guess if I told you, guys, uh that I just got out of the hospital, what would you what would your reaction be?

Damn?

Yeah, No, I'm doing all right.

What happened?

Uh?

Got in a car accident?

Yeah?

So these are you guys are close enough to asking follow up questions? You're not just like, damn, I'm sorry. And then that's where the conversation ends. I just wanted to test.

You, guys.

Great does I'll be throwing a real one out in real life somewhere. Yeah.

Yeah, in a while, do a project veritasas.

All right, we will be talking to Liz Plank.

Uh.

She's an expert in many things, but for the purposes of this episode today, she's an expert on men in masculinity. She's got a famous book, I would consider it famous by now, called for the Love of Men From Toxic to a More Mindful Masculinity. And she's gonna hopefully break this down for us. That's after the break.

Can you guys hear me? Now?

Hey, good you too.

First of all, thank you for doing this. Huge helps us. We brought you on for this central question why don't men ask follow up questions? But first, I was curious in your experience, how have you dealt with this? Have you run into this in your personal life? Are there any notable incidents that you can remember?

Like far too many probably to recall, if I'm gonna be honest, if you're a woman going on.

Dates with men, I think particularly it is just yeah, part of a part of the ex I think, to become like a late night host, like where you're just like, okay, I guess I'm David Letterman, like I'm just gonna ask you questions and make you feel great about your life, and while I just entertain an audience that doesn't exist and.

Get absolutely nothing in return. I think in terms of first dates, it is just so rampant. I think it's it's a real epidemic of like going on a date and then leaving and being like, Wow, this man does not know a thing about me and like and and had a great time, which which you would have a great time, right if if you just talk about yourself, I'm sure you'd all have a great time. But who Yeah, when they want to go on a second date, you're like that was great. You're like, what was it?

Do you like?

Tell me one thing? Like you want to quiz them you get one reason why they like you? Do guys think about that on dates.

I've been out of the game, so to speak, for a while, but yeah, like back in, you know, in that time. I think I would notice on the few occasions where I felt like I've talked too much, I would notice, like when it was too late, I guess, like towards towards the end of a spiel or something like that. I'd be like, oh, wait a second, I

Something that I think women, you know, could do better, right, and and sort of practice is like being being less people pleasing, right, and being less focused on making the

We've established that this is happening in like people's dating lives, but it also seems to be a phenomenon in conversations from one man to another man like who are friends? And I'm curious do do men and women behave differently in conversation? Like do we have different goals?

Goals?

What?

What has your experience and your expertise told you about that kind of dynamic.

Yeah, there's this you know concept that women tend to have face to face friendships and men have uh sort of side to side friendships. So it's the idea that you know, women usually will tend to go to brunch together, go to dinner, you know, do get smoothie and be face to face and really be connecting, I think in a more intimate way. And men tend to go see you know, like a basketball game, or they go to the bar and they're sitting at the bar right so

One thing you said that kind of blew my mind is that concept of face to face versus side by side, because now I'm like thinking back on like most of my friendships with men, and it is like we're always there's like some central thing happening that we're both experiencing versus you know, sitting across from each other at a table and talking. We'll be seeing it watching a game or a movie or something like that.

Do you think it would be weird if you were like, do you want to get dinner instead? Like, do you think that that would be difficult?

There are a few people, a few men in my life who I could go to dinner with or go grab a drink where we're sitting across from each other, but like the vast majority, you know, I would be like, yeah, there needs to be a basketball game. Why?

Why? Why? I think is it safer?

Like when you're at a dinner, it's like you and the other that is the entertainment for tonight. And if you don't have anything to say, you can't just be like, well, we're just going to be silent and watch this thing happening.

I can't just like list basketball players. Yeah, well you can.

Yeah.

Yeah. There's this sort of ranking, right that is inherently there in all of these conversations that somehow like female friendship is sort of better than that male friendship, right because it's more intimate because it's face to face. And I think that there are also downsides to some of

Yeah, there's this kind of consensus that it's a lot easier for two men to become friends than it is for women. But that actually makes sense if the depth of that friendship is very surface level. It feels like Toddler's becoming friends versus a very intentional interaction that you want to have.

It's like you're at the you know, like you're at the park and you're like, well, we both like this slide friends, Yeah, let's meet up and like go down the slide. And then sometimes we won't like go down the slide for you know, a couple of months. But that's fine because I don't expect to do anything with you besides like going down the slide, Whereas.

With women, it's like, why haven't you gone down the slide? Why aren't you here? Like are you mad at me? Like, let's talk about it, let's meet up outside of the slide, like it just would be Again, it's very I would never like ever want to trade places, but I like,

Yeah. So when it comes to kind of this central question, there is this socio linguist named Deborah Tannen who kind of offers up one explanation, which is that the goals that men have in conversation are different than the goals that women have in conversation. And you touched on this a little bit, but she she mentions that men are trying to exhibit knowledge and skill storytelling, joking, or imparting information, whereas women are more often trying to develop connections and

Yeah, I love I love her as a researcher, I think, yeah, she provides really interesting insights and and certainly yeah, like and again, if you think about how we reward women and men in our society, men are rewarded by, you know, against status, right, like how much money do you have or how successful are you? How much knowledge do you have? Right?

Better than you.

Again, I'm not saying that when men do that it's like super attractive to everybody, but it's definitely of transgression, right of how women are supposed to act. So yeah, it's not just that we have those like proclivities, but that we are rewarded, right socially for you know, indulging in those proclivities and like and sort of engaging in

So we've learned that men, or heterosexual men at least, are simply kind of socialized to extract certain things from conversations, and those things differ greatly to what women are trying

I think that's what it is, where it's like, I don't want to put you in a position where you feel weird or like I'm trying even though it's like normal information and't I wouldn't feel uncomfortable if you asked that follow up upon me, But I don't want to be the person putting you there.

But it's also that putting a man into in a vulnerable quote unquote position has different implications than putting a woman in a vulnerable position. Right, if I were to see yeah, female friend cry or tell me that she's yeah hurting, and for me to'd be like, oh my god, what's going on? Like, you know, and for her to be emotional or be vulnerable like that's not a threat to her gender identity. It's not a threat to it's it's not transgressive, right, like in a way that it

So that's actually a perfect segue into this segment that we want to do after the break. Basically, Devin, Noah and I would like to think that we know each other pretty well, partially because we do ask each other follow up questions. But we want to put that to the test, and so, Liz, we're gonna ask you to come up with three things that you think good friends should know about each other, and then the three of us are going to take that quiz and see how

Live?

We're here with special guests Liz Plank. Why don't we go ahead and get started with question number one?

I feel like you should know your best friend's middle name.

I think, yes, we're already losing.

Yeah, I'm thinking of.

I'm sweating basic. So why don't we start in the in the order of how we say the name show? Yeah, So I'll go first. You guys gotta have to guess my middle name, okay, or do you know my middle name?

I thought I did, but now I don't.

Well, this one's already hard because my family is from Eritrea, and the naming convention there is so much different than it is in the Western world. Basically, you don't have a family name necessarily, you do like your lineage.

You get your name.

Your middle name is your dad's name, and your last name is your grandfather's name. And so my dad's name is blank blank Fidel, and growing up, we were hanging out at his auto repair shop, Fidel Auto Repair, and I've been using that as kind of my professional stage name, even though the way it works in Eritrea is that my middle name is my dad's name and my last

Benjamin Yeah, yeah, Well it's.

Pronounced differently exactly ben yam.

Okay, Well yeah, we had no shot.

That Yeah all right, No, uh, isn't it something like Clark or something like that. It's something that's way more.

Let's just start with I don't want to say it, but b oh is it also it's.

Not Benjamin, is it? Holy shit? All right, we are failing terribly.

I know that's funny.

Damn all right, Devin.

Devon's already got two first names.

You guys should kind of notice one. I know.

I feel like I definitely will have known it once I hear it.

There's a I will say there's a celebrity connection, not actually not why actually yes, but why we've talked about it.

Devin James.

Yes, yeah, I like Jordan.

Devin James, and just for the listeners, the three of us are huge fans of Kevin James.

We've seen him live and.

So wow, that's hilarious. I don't think I knew that, all right, So Liz would be pretty disappointed in us so far.

Hey, we got it right, Yeah.

No, no, no, but now I'm actually gonna remember this. The problem is we just didn't know that.

But it's like middle names are tough.

Yeah, they don't come up really no, okay.

Number two, they're astrological signs, like I feel like you need to know which kails it, you know their birthday.

I don't know.

I don't know the signs either, but vague I think I can get your guys' birthday. So let's let's start with mine.

Yours is this is kind of She's unfair.

It did just happen, but the party was not on the day.

Okay, yeah, the eleventh.

Al right, so we got Manny all right. Noah is August the first, who almost aid third? And Devin is September seventh.

That's correct.

Wow, killed it all right? Liz not happy for question number one. Liz very happy for question number two. Question number three is kind of spicy.

You should know who their exes like, who their like last breakup was with. You should be able to give a one line at least about why the breakup happened. That's If you can't, I'm gonna die. Are you serious.

Previous breakup and why?

And why? So?

And now are we considering literally the last person you called a partner?

Or that's what I was going to ask. Is this a situationship?

Very based on you know, I would say more serious?

All right, so we'll start with me.

I have no idea.

It's not a trick question, it's it should be easy.

Yeah, wow, I thought there had to be someone someone else.

Yeah, yeah, okay, why I have no idea?

I mean this one, this one's hard too, because it's like there's not one reason.

Yeah, why where do I beg give?

It's actually one hundred. I mean, I don't think that it was one person not a good match. Yeah, I think for a long we were young and stupid.

What year was that?

Actually I remember it vividly because it was during the World Cup, so it's twenty eighteen, broken, I remember, Holy shit, I remember the eighteen Yeah, whoa.

I guess that makes sense if then you had a couple of years of nothing and COVID.

It wasn't nothing, it was Yeah. I remember of the World Cup being like kind of saving my ass in terms of just like, oh, a big breakup happened. But now I'm yeah, I'm a huge fan of the beautiful game. All right, all right, Noah, is this the obvious one?

Probably?

Yeah.

Now I'm blinking on her name.

And I'm kind of blinking on her name is Yeah. The why, to the best of my recollection, I don't know. She just kind of didn't seem about it that life.

Yeah, yeah, I don't think we saw an eye on what we wanted at the time.

So, yeah, it ran its.

Scores as well. Fair fair enough, Devin, We all know this one because it was big news.

This is.

Correct, Okay, the reason why though, I mean, I guess there's a couple of reasons.

There wasn't like a big fight or anything, so it's not as fun.

Yeah, that was a good one, because this is the issue.

I think the issue with this is we're we gave ourselves the easy way out. What do you mean because we said relationships in that situationships?

Oh yeah, situationships.

I think if we asked, she would know all her friends sitationships.

Yep, yep, that's true.

And I'll also say it's interesting because like we're saying things but like that was never a conversation we had.

Yeah, yeah, Like I remember.

You texted us, Yeah, you told us he broke up.

Yeah, And I think we were both like, oh, damn, that's crazy.

That's crazy. I think in the text I remember saying something stupid like damn end of an era or something.

That was pretty good. Season finale.

Just when you thought this episode was over, Liz had one more challenge for us.

When's the last time that like one of you three shared uh difficulty, like a challenging situation, a relationship issue, a work issue.

Well, it's Funny you mentioned earlier that men don't give themselves a chance to go deeper because they're always watching like a basketball game. Because Noah and I literally made plans to watch the Lakers at a bar after this.

Yeah, I won.

Not be sharing any personal information out there.

Why don't you guys share a personal each share a personal struggle that's going on for you, and then you can talk about how it felt.

All right, well, then I can go first. Mine is this this medicine I've been taking?

Oh yeah, so last year.

Hey, I won't bore you guys with the actual conversation, but I will summarize it. Basically. I talked about the complications I'm having with some medication taking. Devin shared that he's trying to find a balance between work that he loves and work that gets him paid, and Noah shared that he's been trying to identify what his priorities are these days. The conversation lasted about thirty minutes, and then we talked about what it felt like to share these

Obviously, because of the construction of this, it's a little different because like, yeah, not that we're forced to do it, but it's like it's being set up in a different way. We're on mics, I mean, but you know, and yeah, I don't think it was like I'm not pouring out the depths of my soul, you know. But at the same time, it's like, well, these aren't things that we really would talk about normally. I don't think I would

I guess. It's also the way you talk about something where like if I had brought up the medicine, if I was like a couple of beers deep or something, I'd be talking about in a completely different way than like sharing that what I'm struggling with, right, Yeah, yeah, so it does help, I guess to be like, Okay, here's what what's going on? Yeah, versus you know, just shouting at someone over loud music.

Yeah, but it was it's nice to do.

Yeah, I'll probably be sharing more in MI nend or trying to keep the door open a little bit, versus being like, oh that sucks, yeah crazy, well, like my chicken tenders already, you know, like you know what I mean, Let's have some fun and try to just be a little more open or receptive to that in case that is what someone's looking for.

Yeah, you know, in that moment.

Yeah, it certainly it did prove kind of Liz's hypothesis, but I guess it's not necessarily hers. But she was talking about how we're just kind of socialized differently than women, and we're socialized to want different things from conversations. It never occurred to me to tell you guys that medicine thing, because I don't know why. Maybe in my head, I'm like, they don't why would they care about this? Or like but yeah, just never occurred to me.

Yeah, I agree with No, this didn't feel like a groundbreaking like, yeah, I don't know this is their right circumstances for us to have.

Like, yeah we would, Yeah, and I don't know that it was of the.

I do think to Know's point, it will be in the back of my head now because it seems like we're all open to talking about stuff.

Yeah. Yeah, it's just like.

We don't want to prod so it puts more of the like the person telling the thing just has to volunteer more information. Yeah, that's true in our dynamic, like that's the only way we're gonna Like I think if one of us volunteered more information, then we would.

Ask more questions.

But pretty surface level, we're just sort of like, cool, Yeah that's all you match, mat Yeah exactly. So I think after this, yeah, I'll maybe be more proactive about if it's a thing I want to talk about, opening the door a bit more like.

Yeah, next time Devin breaks up with a girlfriend of eight years, I'm gonna ask.

Why thanks for listening to our confessions. This was no Such Thing by Manny, Noah and Devin. The theme song was produced by me Manny. Thank you so much to our guest Liz Plank, whose book For the Love of Men is out everywhere. If you thought that this conversation was even a little bit insightful, you're gonna love that book. If you like the show, we're asking you to give us a five star rating on wherever you're listening. We're doing this show by ourselves and could use every little