Why can’t adults order from the kids menu?

I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is no such thing. The show where we settle our domb arguments and yours by actually doing the research. This week we look into a severely underdiscussed form of discrimination upheld by the food industry.

They can tell me no if the reason is like we have to kill one kid, if we can.

No, There's no no such thing, no such thank such, Thanks.

Touch, thank touch, thank.

So.

We have a fourth mic with us today. Kate Lindsay, internet culture writer and co host of ic y am I Slate's Internet culture podcast.

Slate's Internet culture podcast.

Welcome to the pod, Kate.

Thank you so much for hiring me. This is a dream come true, mostly because of the topic I like. No one's ever allowed me to speak on it before.

Yeah, now's your chance. So this week's topic came from a conversation we had when we first launched the podcast a few months ago.

I can tell you what happened. Shall I tell you what that?

So?

Two years ago, three years ago, a dune was out. I can't say which one, but I know I was in a movie theater.

To see a dune.

You're watching, Timothy, Yeah.

Yeah, it was one of those places where you could order food by writing out a card and get like full meals, like you know, way beyond the whole popcorn thing. And so they have a very expansive menu. And I, like, Manny grew up as a picky eater, and so there are some foods that us picky eaters know just like really hit different. And one of those meals is chicken fingers.

Yeah.

And so it was either that the adult menu did not have chicken fingers at all, or they had some version of it that was like kind of an abomination, Like it was like Dorito crusted.

Yeah, yeah, like not what I wanted.

But I saw on the kid's menu they had just your bog standard chicken tenders and fries, and so I wrote my little card kids chicken tenders and fries, and they took it. They went off, and then like a minute later, someone came back and they kneeled down.

In front of me. Yeah, they didn't even write it.

They kneeled down and said, that's like that's from the kids menu. We we can't serve you that. And I was like okay, and I got something else, but like I mean, at that point, the rest of Dune was out the window.

For it was ruined.

Did you push back at all?

No, because that's not my personality. The movie was playing right, and so it's like, yeah, I didn't want to like start it, and like I'm much more of the vibe of like I'm just gonna really resent that for years and years and then talk about a podcast.

But it was just like humiliate.

It was like that's for little kids and you're a grown up, and and I just felt so dumb, and it just more so started a larger type of crisis for me of like why can't I do this? I felt very libertarian all of a sudden. I was just like I don't understand the reasons. More so, I don't understand why it's inconsistent in terms of whether or not you're allowed to because there are some places that don't care because it's on the menu.

Other places care.

But now, because of that experience, I am so scared to do it again. And ever since then, it's just been it's just been in my brain all the time because sometimes either they don't have it on the main menu. It's like something really simple that you want that you're like perfect, or you know, you just want a kid's portion, because sometimes you're not there for a full meal, but you want a little something.

You would think that you are giving an establishment X amount of money. Yes, you just get something from their kitchen, no matter you know what, however they label it, you can.

Believe I've thought about every which way.

I really try to make sense of this, because it's like, okay, maybe it's less expensive, but I could show up in order just an appetizer that's allowed.

Yeah, and so it's.

Not like a price thing.

Yeah, and I.

Want to give you my business.

And because I think, to me, the reason, I can't figure out what the reason would be other than someone who's like, well that's all grown up, and I don't I don't understand, right, right, just give me a little bit less Like at a certain point, I'd be like, okay, can I pay for the adult verd?

You give me the kid? I don't know.

It's just it's there, it's available. I don't have to order anything, but I want to order this.

Yeah.

It just feels like an infringement of some right, But I haven't really been able to nail down which one and make a real kid.

Yeah.

Yeah, they are not answering me when I email them.

I feel for you deeply.

I'm somewhat of a kid's menu connoisseur, so to speak, like like I go I'll go to Thankfully the coffee shops aren't saying no to me. But I'll buy a coffee, iced coffee or whatever, and I'm just like, can you just fill it up halfway?

Right right?

I don't want to drink this whole thing. And I know it's crazy because I'm paying for the whole thing.

I never drink it.

A small coffee filled that half.

I'll just feel like, you know, I've done this.

I don't. I'm not going to drink it, give it to someone else.

I've done this. I've done this with wine.

I've been like, can I just get like a half glass I should take? Can I get a kid's size?

And I'm not asking to pay less? I'm not so yeah, because I'll put it in the fridge or whatever and I won't drink it. I'll just sit there for days and I have to toss it.

Your coffee mm hm oh what that kids menu stuff?

Do you get there?

Kids?

Men order from the kids menu?

Ever?

Yeah, I do, I would, and I do. It's separate from wanting the kids item, it's what it speaks to what Kate wants. Yeah, it's like this portion, I just want a smaller amount. And so for at Chipotle, for example, I'll get the kids menu tray and it's just like a tinier portion size of their regular item and it costs less for this. But yeah, at at fast food places, this portion size, the kids size is filling me up and it's cheaper.

Yeah, And if it's something just have different things. And I don't like the insinuation that my palette should be more evolved and offering it to me, they're like, no, you don't get this because it'll always have like Caesidia mac and cheese, chicken tenders, like all the hits, quite frankly. And then they're relegated to the kids menu and if you get an adult one, they've fucked with it in some way. They've like they've added something to like make

Devin, do you ever want to do this kid's menu stuff?

The only time?

No, I need to go.

The only time I have thought about doing it, but I'm too embarrassed to do it. Is at an ice cream place.

Oh, I will tell you right now.

An ice cream place is, in my experience, the only safe place to do it. They will give you kids, no question asked that they don't go do you have the kid waiting outside? Yeah, they will just give it to you, And right they don't. They don't give it to me and then come back and whisper. And actually they allow that they understand. But I find that anywhere where it's like a sit down restaurant, they will not do it, even though I can see right there that

If you've felt like you need a reasoning on why would you feel better about them telling you now?

Or I guess it depends what the reason.

They can tell me.

No, if the reason is like we have to kill one kid if we get like if it's that, then like sure, okay, I.

Won't get it.

Yeah, I'll consider it.

Yeah, like every time we give a kid's menu item to an adult, we have to kill one kid.

I'd be like, all right, I'm amazing.

It's a cost things in because they're usually cheaper and they just want to force you to order something that's more expensive.

Yeah, because you're the adult.

But that brings me back to like I could just get an appetize them.

They're not coming over like you need to get a made advertizer.

Yeah, but I will say, just to play Devil's advocates to the thing, I literally just said sorry, if you get just an appetizer. They some some places are certainly annoyed that you're if you.

Go to a let's say, sit down restaurant and you just order French fries.

Yeah, I think it's a capitalism thing because if people realize they don't if I if they let me do it, it's.

The news is going to spread.

And then and like big big Food wants us to think that we have to order a huge portion and that's our only option, and there's we can't get anything cheaper. We have to do the most expensive thing and maybe OURFK is right.

You guys back to that episode.

No, it's people are already mad about us our case.

Listen, listen, I don't care someone's behind all this about us needing to get like huge portions and absolutely no compromise, even if like you have the ability and I have the money and the palette for it. I think we've established a certain price and portion size that if people were to realize they could scale back that.

Restaurants are scared. They're scared of me, and they're scared of what I have to say.

Scared. So I'm not a kids men you guy typically, but you know, in preparation for this this past week, and I did go to a mall. Oh wow, I went to a an ally a popular family restaurant chain by myself, saddled up to the bar with the mission of ordering off the kids menu.

I'll reveal the results of this later, but it was quite an experience.

Yeah, for now a man alone.

Well, I'll say this. I wasn't the only one, believe it or not, but after the break, I go behind the scenes of the kids menu industrial complex to find out how the youth monopolized the small portion chicken tender market. All right, so we're back. I talked to a few people during that ad break. One is an anonymous server at an undisclosed dining movie theater chain which may or may not have been the one that showed Dune those years ago.

I am a server at a i'd say popular dining movie theater. So the kids menu stuff is pretty standard fair. You've got like tots, chicken fingers, burger pizza, and almost call it like snack bar concession type food, nothing too crazy. At a certain point in the evening it becomes adult only. They want to be, and I think they are successfully a place where you can go get a drink, watch you know, a cultured movie you're going to not see like a bunch of families or a bunch of kids.

Some role play. Sure, it's five pm, I'm going to catch sinners solo. I want the kids tots. I write that down on the thing. You come by to pick it up. Yeah, how does this go? I might recommend something during the greed. If they're like, oh, I want the kids burger, I'd be like, oh, well, we could we have this adult burger. You know, it's got X, Y and Z. It's a little bit nicer, it's a little bit more elevated, and might try and push them towards that. But if they're you know, writing on the card,

But if you're going to make a really crazy sting about it, and you know, i'd probably got the manager is something if you're being really rude or completely unreasonable. From a business perspective, the policy makes sense from like a personal perspective, like now you should you know, whatever you want, it's fine, no moral judgment. If you are five year old and you want, I know, that's totally there's nothing wrong with that.

It seems like it's very like employee to employee. And by the way, I know working there sucks, so like, uh, I it's you know, I know, I know it's not their fault.

I know it's like it's someone else's.

But I would say the delivery of my rejection was not like, hey, it was it was it was delivered.

Like a personal problem. It was yeah.

I think if they had said, like, we don't serve it right now, that would be fine, But it was like you can't, you can't have it.

I didn't like if there was a kid next to you, they could have maybe right.

Right, that's the thing, and so I would I would have been seeing with him, like it doesn't work, Like who am I to lose my mind? But the thing it was making me think about, weirdly is the changes people want. It it comes to like phones and social media and tech and like kids on phones.

But like the thing that would be better.

For the people is the thing that's less profitable for the companies, which is like basically to scale back, Like we're in like and there's a real need to scale back and they're never going to do it.

So now that this.

Feels like the same problem where like we've gone so big and like that's what we're known for, and now people are coming up against you, like actually I don't think. I don't think I want to eat this much. But now it's like, you know the business reason. I'm glad to hear he personally has no problem with it, because I do personally have a problem.

With the movie feat. The thing's complicated because obviously you don't need to get any It's it's tricky to use this as example because they obviously want money from the food too, that's part of their model. But like you can easily go to one of these places all the time, and not have any food. It's not their primary function obviously, so it's interesting that even they have kind of these restrictions.

And I appreciate the effort that he was saying about, you know, discouraging kids from coming, because every kid, every kid except for the one I eventually will have, is the worst thing in the world. So like, I do appreciate that, But it's like what draws me, Isn't that it's for children draws me to right, that it's the smaller and so I'm like so like like, yeah, it's like call it something Colone else.

I don't know.

Yeah, I like the mini bite size like munchkins.

Yeah, I can't remember. That's the service perspective. Now our deep throat pointed is something very important. Just follow the money touched upon earlier. So next up, I spoke with Laurie Rakozzi. She's an associate principle at TECH covering the restaurant operator in food service industry. She's gonna help a zoom out a bit and how the numbers actually crunch out. So first up, I wanted to know if kids menus have always been around.

They really kind of started popping up around prohibition. There was maybe some incidences where there were kids menus before that, but in Prohibition, operators were looking for a way to make up for those lost profits, and so they decided they might open their restaurants more to families and children and women, and so that also started popping up back then at places like the Water for Storia, Marshall Fields here at a kid's menu, So it was just some

Do you have any idea on what those menus would have looked like back then.

Prohibition arrow and the kids' menus first started popping up. They were typically mirrord what the adults reading to smaller portions, so you might have seen a very sophisticated menu at the time. You might have seen like pork chops or layup chops and chicken, and it just served in smaller pieces.

And today we see a parallel.

So restaurants use kids menus as a marketing tool to bring in families and boosting their check averages. Last year there was a seven point one percent year over year growth in kids' menus, so more restaurants are offering more kids menu items. So here's where it gets tricky, like our anonymous server said, and Laurie confirmed that these items are often lost leaders. There's gonna be a tough pill to swallow.

So even though they may be actually you know, lost leaders in a way to have a kid's menu, they may be you know, at margin or maybe even be unprofitable, they're actually bringing in They're relying on parents to come in and then spend that money, or research shows it tends to be either at margin or you know just you know, slightly under just assuming the kids aren't coming in on their own buying kids meals, there are going to be parents there, and so they're willing to take

Restaurant, so they're unprofitable. So while the restaurants offer the items for the restaurant to survive, they need parents to be ordering some parent food too. And they're very lucky that ten year olds don't usually go to restaurants by themselves.

Okay, so basically all right, they're offering the kids menu knowing that it's not making money to a like be nicer to the community or whatever. Offer the stuff for kids, but be because the adults are coming.

Yeah, it brings like if you have you've got two kids, and you're either going to not go to the restaurant or go yeah you know so, and then that means you need to order some real food otherwise it's a total wash for them.

What happens when I bring my kid and we're both getting kids the doors.

The real reason to have a kid, I'm realizing is that now finally I can like have there there.

You can't say no to me anymore. I'm not giving them anything.

Yeah for me?

Yeah No, I see this all the time with like family bloggers and stuff that they'll make dinner and the momble you should just eat whatever she's fed the kid, I'm like, sounds perfect, Like it's gonna be chicken fingers like all that, all the things should I love. And finally, no one get mad at me for it, because there's a child right there with yeah, yeah, yeah.

I dove a bit into the restaurant profit margins to see how slim these margins actually are. This is dat from the NRA, the National Restaurant Association, to be clear. So, the most significant costs for a restaurant are food and labor, so those each account for about thirty three cents of every sales dollar, and then the other costs like expenses, utilities, admin, processing fees, everything else. It was about twenty nine percent of sales, so that leaves about five percent or five

And we're seeing kind of the effect of this, Like there's so many like really good restaurants around us that have been closing. But what confuses me is that those places are always busy, and so I was like, why are these places closing down if they get a lot of customers? And I think they you know, they can't raise their prices because people won't go there, but then they also can't like afford the rent or whatever.

Yeah, so the kids menus are lost leaders. They bring in customers, They build brand loyalty. You can think about places you went as a kid that you might like still, So it's still worth it on some level just to build that sort of community around the restaurant before we go on, does you know hearing the flight of the restaurant industry at all?

And it's okay if not, No, it doesn't.

Here's what that makes me think about the play of the restaurant industry. I don't I feel bad about that, you know, in general, of course, I don't feel bad about my role in that. Wanting to order from the kids menu, because it makes me think a little bit about tipping, which I'm generally very I'm very pro tipping, but the tipping discourse, you know, people should be getting paid a living wage, and it is such a like twisted move that they've somehow outsourced the responsibility to that

Things are really expensive.

If you if they let you order from the kids menu,

But then it's easy.

It's just the same type of like coverts switch around, where ITA's like my inability to get like smaller portions at a appropriate price is a symptom of a bunch of higher problems in society, but that when you go asking why can't I do this, you know that the answer is, oh, because you need to support restaurants. As if I had any part in sort of all the things that changed, including starting a pandemic, I had no

Yeah?

And so it's just like like sure, I understand that in this specific scenario, if we're looking at this layer of it all, like yes, if I were to do that and insist upon it, they wouldn't make money.

But I actually have nothing to do with that situation.

Well, you're a proponent of smaller portions, so you you would you would be, in theory, be happy with, you know, an adult burger. But let's say it's a six ounce burger instead of an.

Eight ounce, right right?

Like yeah, Like so, I mean I.

Don't know if that saves the money.

I don't know what would happen.

To society if, yeah, if the portions just suddenly got smaller. But I think I, yeah, I would be It's also like never, it really is not about the price. It is about what it is, how it's smaller, and it's sometimes it's just a bit more straightforward, and that's what I want.

Yeah, all right, So we've learned about why kids menus are restricted to kids. Let's talk solutions after the break. So we're back. So we're gonna talk about potential solutions to the kid menu conundrum. But first a bit about my own experience at the mall. All right, I'm outside the restaurant. I'm about to go in, trying to get a seat at the bar and see how the kid's mini thing goes. So I walk in. You know, some great music's playing by a Jelly roll or someone trump Sure, Benz Boom.

It's yeah, it's like, I go up, get seated.

Immediately, it's pretty empty, a few couples in there, some another guy at the bar chilling. They don't give me the kids menu. To give me the.

Regular about that, because it's a big Well do you remember when you were at the age where they stopped giving you the kids man, that was a big that was like, oh, I'm an.

Adult, like a.

Oh yeah, I kind of didn't like because that was fun to do it as a kid.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I wish they had more of.

Those at least of the episode is like, and I should be able to draw.

On that can't cost them. Yeah, so anyway, so I'm looking at I don't they don't give it to me. But then I'm just like, all right, So lady standing there, I'm just like, oh, well, can I just have a kid's burger? And then is there any way I can just get like a kid's size cheeseburger, And without any hesitation, she goes sure and puts it in. What I was shocked?

Wow?

What?

And I hadn't ordered anything else, Like it's not like I got like I got to be here afterwards.

But you have a kids burger and one beer. It's a time that kids could feasibly be there.

It was like noon.

Yeah, so maybe that that that could be part of it, you know, And.

Maybe because they weren't busy, you know, but I was. I was because I wanted to go buy myself for that reason, to be the most challenging.

To be the most version of the its like, you.

Know, if I was with other people, okay, not everyone's going to get the kids to think.

You know, and you two go, how was it like size wise.

And I mean it's the size of it. So it was I took a picture. Was small. I mean the burger was definitely smaller than usual, and like not as many acoutreman.

You know, not as elevated, not elevated really at all.

Patty cheese, lettuce, tomato. I don't think there was onion any all the hits. Yeah, and then good portion of French fries. Sure, pretty excellent and more than I would think for a kid's Like, it didn't feel like they give me a kids portion of the fries.

It's a grown as man order.

And yeah, this guy's gonna get we gotta film give regular exactly.

It sounds like what the inside source at the movie theater was saying, where it does kind of depend on who the employees at the time. This woman just sounded like she didn't give a ship.

Yeah.

So so I mean I think that's another you know question here is the inconsistency.

Yeah, because I mean, you know, you say, you know, you're not.

Someone who's gonna throw a fit about this, obviously, but yeah, and like or like you're at a restaurant now you don't want to ask, And part of that is because you have no idea, what reaction, what's gonna happen? Let's talk about solutions. So I had some ideas that I'm curious how you guys feel, so like some of them we've already kind of touched on. So like you would be, would you be happy to order a kid's meal but

Four is a lot. It was two dollars the cost of the But here's the thing. Yes, I would be okay with it. It's not my ideal situation.

Yeah, I would.

I would do it though if I they just but if I saw it, they would need to say it on the thing because it's always like for twelve or under, and then there's another bit of fine print.

Like plus plus four for adult.

Yeah if if the kids men, you plus the surcharge is still cheaper than the adult item.

You're in fine.

Yes, yes, okay, that's.

Because I want less food, but I also want to pay the a fair price for it, right, what.

About just paying for a half portion? That's my golden standard.

Yeah, I just want half of the thing and I want to pay half the price for it.

Like in some cases, yes, it's like I want the very specific, picky eater food that they have. But for the most part, and because I'm just sort of i'm you know, I'm solutions orientated. If this would just if we could all agree on this, and I'd be happy to settle for just half portion, yeah, of adult adult food, because.

Then they're not necessary They're not technically losing money on that deal. They are not making it as much as they could if they forced me to get the adult thing.

De My thing is you kind of alluded to it. But just right on the menu, who can order what?

I think? That's right. That's what we need is transparency all over.

This is only for.

How hard how hard line are.

These right, it's like twelve and under. But sometimes it's not like only twelve, it's like twelve.

Like this is designed twelve year right, right?

Maybe what they have menus and they say like for kids only, like adults can order if you're yeah, if you're not with a kid.

Yeah, And I'll obey that, but also have my problems, Yeah, but why can't I You can have your problems with.

The menu, Yes, exactly, it's not okay, now this person, at least we know the rules of engagement.

Yeah, I asked about during COVID, so many restaurants that wouldn't normally have takeout started offering that because one people couldn't go into the restaurants. So that's kind of something that Lori, the industry analyst, was kind of suggesting as a workaround. Yeah, obviously it's not the same as dining. But if you really want this food and you're going to pay the surcharge of the takeout thing, but if you need that tender meal, you can get it from the.

The place is getting like just in order for like a diet cook and envisioning like a kid on the other end, like exactly replacing the.

Order and they're paying. Like but yeah, so that's something where the industry is shifting, and maybe you know, on a long enough timeline, out of pure necessity, you will be able to disorder anything. Mm hmm, that.

Will yeah, Because yeah, I mean, ultimately, I feel like I'm cooler with the idea in general of like restaurants being a bit more expensive if the people who work there are paid fairly and you're willing to pay, and that supports it, like on one condition, you allow me to order from the kids menu, because you've made it sustainable for you, Like, I will pay the sustainable price.

I will pay for.

Whatever makes it work for them for them to give me just basic chicken fingers and fries.

I guess I wonder how many adults actually would want that.

I know how in this room there's fifty percent in the general population.

I wonder what it would be. I think it would be fifty. It's probably one.

You know, like those those things that would do with like de Jorn did, where people be like, oh my god, I love this restaurants.

Actually we would do that, but we would put people and kids portion yeah, what do you think? And then they're gonna go it's fine.

That was the kids that the kids, and guess what you're paying?

Yeah, or ten dollars more for that.

No, they would leave so happy. They would be like, oh my god. And but that's again big food doesn't want.

To just know that.

Hells than.

No such Thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Our executive producers are Kate Osbourne and Mangeshatza Cadur. The show was created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, and Devin Joseph. Theme and credits music by Manny. Our guest this week was Kate Lindsay from the Icy m I podcast and embedded newsletter. And thank you to our experts in the field, Laurie Racodzi, anonymous movie theater employee, and my amazing server at Apple Piece. We couldn't have done this without you.