Why are slurs making a comeback?

Hey, folks, this is many here. I'm genuinely ecstatic that you're tuning in for episode three of No Such Thing. Quick content warning, though this episode features language that may be uncomfortable to hear. You probably guess this by the literal title of the episode, but in many cases this language is not censored. So if you don't want to hear any of that, now's your chance to back out. Otherwise, enjoy the episode. I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is No such Thing a show where we settle our dumb

Touch thank touch touch than.

All right, So I'm going to start here with kind of an acknowledgment, an acknowledgment that a lot of us were using slurs when we were in middle school, elementary school.

High school, high school.

Okay, I'm not going to go that far into college. I remember, specifically in middle school, you know, I was in the Halo two lobbies like that. That was not a safe space, so to speak. You were getting racial slurs, homophobic slurs, the R word just flying left and right, every other word, especially when you would lose, which I never did in middle school and in high school, in my experience, you started to see the usage of these

From but remember to the community.

Yes, yeah, but I remember him taking me to the side once and being like upset that I was using it. Back then, you're using the F word. You're not talking about gay people, and so this is what I'm trying to tell my friend at the time, and he's saying, actually, I know you're not talking about gay people, but the word originated as a slur of gay people, and you mean to describe someone who's stupid or ignorant. But you're saying this word that was meant to make me feel bad.

Whoa For context, for people who don't watch sports, there's always been I guess reports and players accusing Celtics fans of using slurs.

Oh yeah, more specifically the N word.

Yeah, in Boston sports.

Yes, Boston sports. Yeah, more widely.

Yeah, So they're in there. Lebron is you know. I love Lebron, He's my king, my idol. But he was he was maybe complaining a little bit too much about a particular foul, and these guys were just letting it the I was blown away by what they were saying, and I was like, holy shit, we're in Manhattan. F word, our word, your mother is blah blah blah. And I'm like, whoa, now it's turn. I couldn't understand the power of these

Using that degree or an attempt to maybe.

Yeah, But I was still surprised at the high usage rate within that conversation, and that's when I was like, Okay, something's going on here. So that's kind of been my experience. I'm curious what your guys's experience with hearing these slurs are.

So yeah, obviously we have a lot of the same friends, so I've noticed it in our friend group as well. But I'm seeing on Twitter like people are saying, like, hey, if y'all noticed a lot more people are using the R word. And then that new FX show the English teacher was in the trailer.

The kids this year, they're not into being woken all the way around.

They're saying the R word again.

So it's reached, you know, FX writer level of popularity.

Now it's not just the US thing.

But did you guys like use slurs growing up? To be honest, and this is not me trying to.

I really like never used I'll say the only time I've ever used our word is like if I'm by myself gaming and it's it's it's at myself, like wow, I'm frustrated, and I'll say it.

But like and I'm not gaming on I'm not on.

That live you're talking. That's darker, to be honest, it's much darker.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not I'm not doing this to pay myself in a nicer life. But when you were growing up, that was just never kind of part of the Like had friends who would use use them, and but it was just like I just never.

Did our word for sure used to use it, I would say, not as often, yeah, but I would say, yeah, high school, early college.

I was sort of like, all right, you gotta stop saying that.

And then I feel like everyone had in your circles people who would I don't even say, like police these words, but like would call you out for using them m hm. And I think, you know, you get tired of people calling you out, you eventually stop using it.

Yeah, it's not like you're going to die on the celfa. Yeah, for what reason exactly? You know, all right, we've established the three of us are woke kings. We don't use the words anymore. But how do you ever like read a tweet or something that has these words in it and find it funny? Like oh, yeah, yeah, okay, we're on the same page about that. I'm asking because I was maybe two years ago. I crashed through the TV

What was the line, Governor, It's so nice for me to come with us, to come for Jonah jonan Oh Ryan has as much chance of becoming president as a stack of retarded raccoons in a trench coat.

And it paints such a vivid picture that line.

With all of these words, right, like they're able to communicate something so quickly, Like what other words could you put in that place to get that joke across?

Yeah, it's the way punchiness of it. Yes, well, I'm only bringing this up for validation.

Yes, I just want you to tell me that I'm allowed.

To laugh at this, Okay, So why is the question? Why do we think this is happening? Why are people using slurs so freely? Again?

So, I mean I think it's just kind of a blacklash to a kind of hyper policing of language I've seen in the past, say, fifteen years. I mean it goes back further. I mean, like in the nineties you would hear it as just political correctness. You know, there's a line of acceptability of what's okay to say or not to say. We heard it recently about the election with being told to use the word Latin X or you know, people talk about homelessness or unhoused people and it's like.

Yeah, people experiencing homelessness.

Yeah, and it's these things that are ultimately harmless, but they also don't necessarily do that much to help any maybe disenfranchised groups. If you want to be called this, I'll call you that. If you don't, I'll try not to. I guess there's a pendulum that swings, and you know, it'll go back and forth, and I'm sure we'll see it change again in the future.

That to me would mean then that there's kind of like an overlap. There's like people on the left and people on the right, and there's a middle where it's like anti political correctness like groups. Because I'm I'm mostly interested in why people on the left are bringing these words back. I feel like people on the right maybe never stop saying them, or the usage rate dropped, but not all the way. But like people on the left, I feel like it are. That's where I'm like, this is interesting.

All right.

So we wanted to hear from some people who have been using these words again after not using them for a really long time, and so we did this call out and we got a few responses. I do want to note like how hard it was to get people to agree to do this, Like everyone had a million questions whether they would be anonymous. Who are you telling about this?

Which is very interesting, right, because I think it speaks to like to know as earlier point where we are with this, that people are fine using it in their trusted groups, but they don't want to be outed as using it to the public.

Yes, that was the prevailing sentiment from everyone who responded, except one person who was like, if I'm going to use these words, you should put my name on this, and I was like, I'm not gonna do that.

Maybe a protection.

Protection You're.

That's interesting.

So we'll play a few sound bites of people who sent in some voice notes to us about why they use these words. Again, but one of the responses I got is in text form, and I'll just read that for you guys. I'm gay and a woman. I just want to be clear this is I'm reading. I'm reading someone's response. Let's just the Yeah, I'm gay and a woman. So I think it's funny if I call someone a pussy as a slur, or if I say the word faggot. A few years ago, some of my best friends started

Do you boys think referring to gay people as fags and today's world is acceptable.

Because we're not referring to gay people. You can be gay and not be a fag. Yeah, a lot of fags aren't gay.

I happen to be gay. Boys.

Do you think I'm a fag?

Do you write a big, loud Harley and go up and down the streets ruining everyone's nice time?

No, then you're not a fag.

I'm a thirty year old white male. But to hear people like project their own moral comp this on you know, so your life is like is like really reductive. It's more reductive than, in my opinion, like saying the thing you know, because it's like, how the fuck do you know? It has been either a white guy telling me that it's like you know, something you've never been through. It's like you neither has have been through it.

You know, I am a twenty six year old woman through our private contexts where I'm with my friends and we know each other's values, and I wouldn't be friends with them if I believed like they were bad people who dislike people with disabilities. That word in a way that is very clearly ironic and not in a way

For three guys who are looking for an answer to why people are using these words. Again, we are in luck because after the break, we're going to be talking to someone who did a story about this. All right, we're back. This is Manny.

I'm Noah Devin, and we have a.

Very special guest. Mia DeGraf, is a deputy executive editor at Business Insider, and she was actually the editor of a piece about this very topic, the return of slurs. And she also happens to be my girlfriend. So there's some light nepotism going on here, but you're actually uniquely qualified to talk about this.

Yes, yes I am.

Recently, Mia, you put together a story about this very thing that we're talking about, the return of slurs. Tell us how this story came about.

Yeah, so I'm on a team that it's you know, I'm a health editor, but our work spans into psychology as well. So a psychology reporter who I was speaking with and she was like, I feel like everyone's saying slurs and it's liberal, lefty people. And I was like, Oh, this is so true, and it's a vibe shift that I think everyone has seen you hear it around. It's like on Twitter, like random people saying it, but I haven't seen like a definitive article that really charts like

It's not like a data point that's like, actually, you know the R word is up.

Right well, because all of you know, I've been in a science journalist for like ten years and everything we do is like you know, using studies and data and all that kind of thing, and this is the kind of thing you just can't measure because it a moves so quickly and be it's like really specifically developed online and it's people who you can't really identify who they are or like they because this is what Julia Pukachevski, the psychology reporter who came to me with this idea,

And I were like, what, like admitting to using it?

Yeah, like what words do you use? And they're like, oh, yeah, I say things are gay or I use insert random suzz and I'm like why and they're like, because it's funny. And then to each one, I'd be like, oh, can we talk about it like officially and they'd be like.

No, that's so similarity to the issue we ran into, right, yeah.

This is like and I was like, okay, fine, whatever, And then Julia tweeted about it. Her tweet got screenshotted and meaned and just like she got completely dunked on Twitter, people being like oh you cop and like what's da da da da? But then and so then I was like, Okay, well this is maybe slightly backfiring.

I just sent her out into the.

But then it was so crazy because she was then showing me like a lot of the people who were donkey on her on Twitter, were then privately dming her being like, I have actually lots of.

Thoughts about Oh that's exactly, That's exactly these types of people I'm talking about.

So it was interesting, but it was definitely like something that really identified like that something was there because it was something that we'd seen online. I think the real step up for us that made this like a big story is that like movies and stuff there and it's like becoming very mainstream, especially when you see like all of the Democrats like really trying to get in on memes and stuff, and then everyone's trying to use this

I can. I cannot bring myself to watch that movie. What is the joke? And you I was not expecting to see you here. I thought you were you know, retired, regarded retired. Oh he pronounced.

It pronounced retired to make it sound like the word. And then the guy's like what and then it's like this.

Is like when we were in elementary school.

And this is the kind of joke that you would get in like a really bad like Seth Rogan movie two thousand and three.

Yees, don't disrespect Seth like that. Now this is like a Royan Reynolds movie from the two thousand Reynolds.

Still it's like it's swung right back. Oh my god, I could do.

This again, blacking. I'm curious, like what were your findings, Like you set out to dive into why this is happening? Is there a real answer?

We went through one angle, which is like what is the history of these words? Like when were they starting to be used? So the R word didn't come about as like a slur until like the sixties and seventies, and didn't really step up until like, you know, the nineties. That's where I really got going. But then you can see ways in which things started to get policed, like like very specific ways, Like there was a black Eyed Peas.

Song, Oh my, let's get it started.

I remembered it as they had changed it because it was offensive.

True, Oh that's how I remember it.

I just assume that's what it was.

Yeah, I know they changed it. Because it was going to be in the two thousand and four NBA Finals or something like, they were going to be playing that song and then I guess the networks but like, we

I'm curious, like how much of this shift, if you know, like, is it coming from bottom up, from like the people, or is it like kind of mandated by Like it makes sense that the NBA and all these corporate people would want to be very safe, But then does a shift like this where now it's acceptable for the Deadpool movie to have this.

Like is that influencing us or are we influencing them?

Do you know?

Like, I think one of the most interesting things about this is that there are so many more bloodlines, and I think that's actually part of the reason why people really wanted to harness this, like speaking of the bottom of angle. It's like, you know, left wing people being like I don't want you to make any assumptions about who I am just because I look queer or am left wing. All these ideas of the left being like very pedantic and very kind of like gatekeeping what is right,

Now.

Roses Law takes the idea a step further. It amends the language and all federal health, education, and labor laws to remove that same phrase and instead refer to Americans living within intellectual disability.

That it was basically removing the R word from like standard language, and that was like there was a huge campaign for it, and that actually made this huge shift and it was really part of like you know, the Obama administration and this new kind of woke kind of moment where people were talking about what you should and shouldn't do, what you can and cannot say, you know, and like Obama coming in, everyone's like this is a new era of hope and like and we're doing the

I feel like at a certain point, saying you shouldn't say that thing.

Was like radical and wild.

Like I remember this is like an early Kanye interview when he's talking about how like in hip hop, like it's cool to like call people gay, and like you see f Wort and he's like, I have a cousin who's gay.

It's like I would really discriminate, Like I use the word fact, fact, fact, fact, like.

Always a condescendant.

I'm my cousin told me that another one of my cousins was gay. And at that point, it's kind of when the turning point where I was like, Yo, this is my cousin. I love him, Like I've been discriminating against gays. It's like do I discriminate against my cousin.

And it's just like this is not at a time when people were like homophobia and hip hop is like to be a problem. But at the time, it was like whoa, Like this dude's radical. He's like pushing against the green in the same way that he's like I'm wearing a poet. Yeah.

I was going to say, it makes sense. There's a lot of other things around him, especially at the time.

But then you know, and the means, why now you have this opposite of like Okay, if everyone thinks that that is the acceptable thing to do, then the new way to stand out is to be like Hitler's actually kind of cool.

You know.

It's like, what's the I'm supposed to say this out?

Yeah?

Yeah, so yeah. I think it was like there was a shift where everyone started to be like, okay, actually we wanted to do things differently. And then you have just the advent of social media, which is huge, and like that's around the time of Obama, like you know, Obama's presidency and that all kicking in and you start to use Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and all of these spaces

So.

I think that actually created this Like that was something that we found through reporting the story, through speaking to experts, they can really pinpoint that, like twenty ten to twenty twelve, there was a real shift in terms of people being like, oh, I can't just say this stuff and it has no ramifications.

Okay, So we're seeing how the return of slurs is kind of a response or over correction of the sensitivity levels of the twenty tens, you've got the Black Eyed peas in the NBA, You've got Obama leading the effort of getting the R word out of medicine. Social media appears and it opens people up to these new perspectives and then people are kind of just revolting against this after that. But the piece also talks about the Red Scare podcast and the effect that it probably had on

Yeah, the red Scare is something that's come up with literally anyone everyone we've spoken to about this pretty much. I mean some people not, but like most people who are like liberal online people were like, oh, well, obviously the red Scare.

Yeah, I guess I'd like to take a hard line right now and say that I think it's fine to say retarded, and that everyone who thinks it's not fine to say retarded it's probably pretty retarded.

So the Red Scare was this podcast. It's two women who turned themselves as bohemian layabouts. They're kind of like really capture what you would call the bag left, where they're kind of like coming at things from a socialist perspective and really taking issue with like the centrist part of the Democrat Party that's like these kind of really polished, flashy people who are also like raging war in the

This Dasha, you were making the point that retard is a descriptive, not an invaliative. Yeahfuire, It's not like saying the N word or the F word.

It's a word that describes what it means.

Yeah.

So a lot of people and who responded to your survey cited them as like inspiration for why they are using slurs.

Well, it's really tricky, actually, I think anyone with language, like it's hard to identity exactly when you started using a word or how you could try to construct it. But I think ultimately people people would just say like, oh, well remember that, like it kind of lives in the same world as that. So it was definitely like a point that people would cite as like, oh that existed, And that's definitely a part of my understanding of this

Are crazy, I'm clicking on that.

But it's like we did just we didn't want a story about a marathon runo who pooped herself while she was running and there was a fox, and like it's still the highest red story I've ever published, which is cities. I think that's like a aside, but like people are really drawn to taboo and it feels like, oh, it's something I shouldn't do.

But I'm online and it was a thrill.

Yeah, and it's private, like this red Scare podcast is just on it's like it's in your ears. You feel like you're sitting with them talking and they're just saying it to you. Yeah, it doesn't feel like it's a big public thing.

It's like your social circles that like, you know, hopefully people feel like they're part of our social circle.

Yes, right, yeah, so it's like your friends.

It feels like your friends are using it, so you may be more open to using it.

Wow.

Well, I feel like we have learned so much. Thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for having me. Yeah, thank you, and I'll see you later. All right, So we just talked to Mia. We learned a lot about why slurs have returned. Curious, like where do we where do we go from here? Do you think they kind of stick around as this kind of fad or do they go away soon? Is this like a pendulum? Like where do where do you guys land on this?

I think it's going to be like we're you know, we got another Trump presidency, So I think it's going to be I think we're going to see things continueing swing in this direction for a bit. And I think, like all things, it's going to get old. And I think it's already getting pretty old quickly. But I think it's not going to be this shock value that people think it is right now, and then it's going to get less interesting for people to be able to use it.

Yeah.

I think as much as maybe the war on wokeness has been won for the moment, I think it'll just take different forms, both pro and anti, and that you know, like me, as a guy in my thirties who never really said these words, I'm I'm not really.

Going to adopt them now.

That would seem to be it would just be kind of strange and and you'd be flacing. I mean, it comes off as pretty try hard and like, yeah, you're like regardless, you're trying to just be insulting. I guess so for me my day to day, it's not going to change anything.

Yeah, I wonder if like some of these words, like not like slurs, but like a word like gay, Like I see a lot of straight people saying things are gay now, and I think that's probably gonna stick around in the sense that like the power of the word is lost. I saw Ice Spice posted this meme that had the effort on it and then like very shortly afterwards deleted it. So I wonder if like you still can't be like a celebrity and doing it, or you

Thing, So, we're doing a podcast about whether or not horses love running.

Okay,