Why are headlights so bright?

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There's no such thing, no such thing, such thing.

Touch So the other day, it's about seven o'clock at night, I was I was out on long Island visiting the family, and I was driving back to Brooklyn, and this time of year gets start pretty early, which is fine for most of the driving until I live by this expressway we called the Jackie Robinson. It is notoriously a difficult

The direction that's gonna go.

But in my mind, I'm like, this feels so unsafe, and I'm like, is this something I know?

I'm getting a little bit older.

I turned thirty two and last year I'm like, is my eyesight.

Just so bad?

Or is is this just like a thing that everybody's lights are just way too bright nowadays? It's making it really hard to see.

No I have that. I've had so many similar experiences. There are a lot of roads in Ohio that don't have street lights. You're only relying on your headlights.

It's like when you're driving upstate.

Yeah, yeah, it's not just unique to Ohio, I suppose. But I also have a stigmatism is very common. You have it as well. Noah's been blessed with great genetics.

I think I bad eyesip, but not that way.

And uh, you know, at night time when I'm driving, I so often I can't fucking see and I feel a little crazy. I don't know if this is true, but it feels like it's gotten worse over the past like ten fifteen years. I've been driving since age seventeen, and I don't remember it being this bad.

I don't either, and that's why I'm like, is my eyesight getting worse or the light's getting brighter?

Yeah?

Right, because I.

Used to remember my parents complaining about driving at night, right, like, yeah, you.

Know, driving and that's hard.

And I used to be like, what are you talking about, Like it it's a little bit darker.

Yeah, it's darker. It's harder than the day.

Yeah, time it's fine and you can see. Yeah, And now I'm like, oh, I get it. Yeah, like I don't like driving it, like I only drive at night when I absolutely have to.

Yeah, my mom my mom My mom says she won't drive at night anymore at all, Like.

I expect it, yeah, because like I'm when I'm driving at night, it is just sort of like hoe I don't crash.

Yeah, fully putting your life at risk.

Yeah, it's like I cannot see.

And it's not just people with their highb on, no, you know where it's like that's a whole other issues exactly too bad. But it's like, all right, those are people being inconsiderate. Yeah, the whole other issue. This is just regular lights.

Regular issues, regular headlights.

Now it seems like everyone's headlights now are like those really bright lights you would see when we first started driving on like those pickup trucks that you'd be like, what type of who is this like for like off roading that they would be using on like you know, like a normal street. It's like this is too much. Now it feels like everyone that camera has those lights now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then sometimes I'm like, you know, when I'm driving my mom's car is kind of nudes a few years old. Am I contributing to this? I don't even know how her.

That's the funny thing, right, because I like to say what y'all doing? Yeah, but I never I've neveryone else is this moment and not think.

It could be the case that like like no one thinks it's them, yeah, of course, but or it's like it's great, Like, wow, these lights look fantastic for.

Me, like being able to see so yeah, like oh am I blinding everybody, But I'm wondering, you know. It's like I guess it's great when you're driving when there are no other cars, right, yeah, because that is true, Like on I have experienced that on like when you're driving a newer car versus an older car on like uh, like you know streets like Ohio or upstate somewhere where there's no street, like you.

Hit the high beings and it's just exactly yeah.

It's like I can see the entire road, but then you don't think about, oh yeah, what are the other people who are seeing me coming at them? See, especially like we're saying we're not even talking about hypings, we're just talking about regular highway driving.

Yeah, we've all accepted the facts that we're just temporarily blinding each other when we pass each other on the roads, and that feels bad.

That's something that's like it's everyone like I can't I have no idea where I'm going and I'm just following the person in front of me and hopefully I don't crash, and like we're all just like I'm like at first, I was like, Oh, it's just me being anxious, you know, like it's chill out like everyone else obviously can see they're driving.

Yeah, not hundreds of accidents around me. I don't know.

I feel like a conspiracy, Like what does this concerted effort to do brighter lights?

Where?

Why?

And then Yeah, I'm also wondering what like the danger levels are, like the risk?

Have people been.

Hurt by this?

Yeah?

And I'm curious to know if this is a US issue or world wid like are we the only ones suffering through this or in you know, in Europe and Asia? What's it like over there because we're driving you know, Japanese cars, Yeah exactly? Or are they making them different for us versus over there?

Right?

Is this legal?

Yes?

How is this legal? How is this legal? Is this legal? Or are people like it? Are we dealing?

Like is the brightness of the lights just stock at this point?

Or is everyone? Is it?

Like I'm not a car guy at all, So is everyone just changing their headlights and making them super bright?

And I'm just not yeah like getting the upgrade? Yeah exactly brightness?

Yeah, Like I'm I'm gonna go buy some lights off Amazon and you know, take it to the shop, Like are people doing that or is this just like out the box?

This is what the cars are coming with now.

Such after the break, we talked to someone who's been obsessed with car lighting ever since he was seven years old.

Okay, we're back.

I'm Noah Devin.

So we're trying to figure out why the hell headlights seem to be so bright and why is there so much glare when we're driving on the roads at night. So I spoke with one of the industries leading car lighting experts. So can I have you just start by introducing yourself.

I'm Daniel Stern. I am the chief editor of Driving Vision News, which is the global vehicle lighting world's technical and trade journal of record.

He first realized his fascination with headlights when he was seven years.

Old and my father was driving me somewhere after dark. I think it was maybe like a like a musical presentation, was in first or second grade, and he showed me how there was a low beam for when there were other cars around, and high beam for when the road was clear, when it was empty.

So that was the root of it.

And then many years later I went off to school in dark rainy Oregon at the University of Oregon, and it seemed to me that I really could not see as well as I thought I should be able to when I was driving after dark, and so I started sort of poking around into how headlamps work and you know,

For it, to be honest, I thought the solution air would be pretty simple, just like turn down the LED lights and then you'll get rid of glare. But after talking to Daniel over the last couple of weeks, it turns out this issue is way more complicated than any of us anticipated in and wide so complicated. You have to know some of the recent advancements we've made of car aliding technology.

Starting in nineteen forty, all vehicles in the United States had what are called sealed beam headlamps.

There for our purposes, we'll fast forward to the nineties.

In the mid nineties, high intensity discharged headlamps came along. Now you can have three times more light within the headlight beam, and the light color was it had a radical shift from sort of a warm white to a cold white, a bluish white, and that started that There was a spike in glare complaints when that happened, and the official response was, yeah, you'll get used to it.

You're only noticing it because they look different. Just look away from the glare.

And then in the early to mid two thousands, LEDs advanced to the point where we could use them for headlamps, and so headlamps once again grew brighter and bluer, and the glare complaints spiked, and the same response sort of came down. Yeah, you'll get used to it. It's not really hurting out, you know, it's just just look away from the glare.

And today our most headlamps led.

Yeah, and new cars are pretty much all designed new cars trucks as these new road going vehicles are pretty much all designed with LED headlamps right from the start.

All right, So for our question, why is headlight glayer so bad? The first culprit LEDs. So the first question I had for him is our LED lights just brighter?

Right? Is that the issue? The lights are just brighter?

So this may be, you know, a dumb and obvious question, but our LED headlamps technically brighter.

Well, it's a little.

Difficult to answer that question has asked because this isn't really when you say brighter and you think of it in terms like you're in your dining room and you turn the dimmer up or down to make the dining table brighter or dimmer, this is a lot more complex than that. A headlight beam isn't just a floodlight or a spotlight that you know that is brighter or dimmer. It's actually a very complex pattern of light with areas

So I'm actually gonna share this video if you guess that'll sort of exemplify what he's saying.

Here, Great, because that didn't make any sense to me.

Or yeah, when it's shining on the wall to a little bit before, just like pause it on that, Okay, I mean trying to break in this down because I know this is kind of hard to visualize, especially for a podcast. But imagine you're shining your headlights in a garage on a wall. You're probably thinking of something similar to a flashlight, right, like pretty even light, maybe a little bit more oval or rectangular, because these are headlamps versus a flashlight. But that's not really the case. So

Oh okay, so the gradient is like you're on one side of the highway driving north, the other side of the highways driving south, and the gradient is blocking people who are going south from like being blinded by your light exactly.

Yeah, because if it was all that intensity, it would be really impossible to see.

So it's really very complex.

That said. Yes, in a word, yes, today's headlamps are their higher intensity, They put a lot more light out, They put out much wider beams.

For our purposes, we'll say they're brighter, although technically, you know, I don't want I don't I don't want Daniel to yell at me.

Yeah, it's not so simple.

They're more intense.

Is that a good yes, Yeah, we'll say intense.

I don't know if people be okay with that. And then there's another reason why they appear so bright. You talk about how with led lights it's more intensity from a smaller I don't know with the technical term for it, but like a smaller opening, right, it's coming from a smaller space.

Yeah.

The technical term is luminance, and in real simple words, it means how right something looks. You can also think of it as light density. If you have a certain amount of light coming from a small area, uh, it's going to look brighter than that very same amount of light coming from a large area because that given amount of light with a large area, it's spread over a over a big surface, whereas with a small area it's sort of condensed into a point instead of a large surface.

If you have a.

Tiny little hole at the end of the nozzle you're going to have like a jet stream.

You can you can powerwash.

Your driveway if if you have a big sort of a big watering looks like the end of a watering can, sprinkling end of a watering can, well you'll have a nice sort of gentle rain shower, same amount of water, but it's but it's behaving very differently and light does the same thing.

It's a really good visual way of thinking about it, all right. So that's the second reason why LED's a pair rider is because the light.

Is coming from a smaller opening.

And then the last culprit is the color blue.

This is really interesting, actually, there's a lot of really sturdy science showing that for any given intensity white light that contains more blue creates much greater discomfort clayer than light that has less blue. So with that on the table, it's been found that just to put rough numbers on it, if you have two headlamps that measure say a thousand candela, the candela.

Being the measurement unit for intensity.

Two headlamps putting a thousand candela towards an oncoming driver's eyes. One of the headlamps is a halogen lamp and it has sort of a yellowish white, warm white light color. The other headlamp is an LED. It has a cold white,

This was really crazy to me, right, because our eyes are more sensitive to blue light, so it appears brighter to us, but it actually doesn't help us see any better, and then it just causes more glare when we're on the road.

Well, so then why why do we have them?

Because it looks cool.

Okay, yeah, that's true.

So let's recap for LEDs. Yes, they're more powerful than previous headlamps. They are here to be brighter because they're coming from smaller openings.

Uh.

And then we got blue, which creates more glayer. And it also brings us to our second culprit, which is called headlight.

Aim hhmm you know what that is.

You don't want to be headlight aim.

I can guess if you want.

And yeah, I guess.

I've noticed some headlights have like lids on them, all right.

Is it like the direct spot where it's most intense closer closer.

Yeah, you guys didn't do the research.

What I looked like a car lighting specialist, all right.

So we talked about blue. We talked about how people like the look of the blue lights.

Right.

A lot of people with older cars will go out and buy LED light bulbs and put them in their older cars.

Hmm.

I remember that with like James Bond movies, they made it a point for blue lights in the head.

Blue lights, right.

So Daniel said, there's a very big problem with this, which is the LED lights are not designed to go in these older cars.

You can go on Amazon eBay. You can walk into parts stores all over the place you can buy these LED bulbs claiming to update your halogen headlamps. In the United States, the major brands market them with a nudge in a wink, saying, you know, these are only for fog lamps. Don't put them in your headlamps, right because fog light bulbs are not regulated in the United States

And look how bright they are. It's a different kind of legs.

It's very much like putting on somebody else's eyeglasses. You might find someone else's eyeglasses that look terrific on your face, but because the lenses are not for your eyes, you're not going to see properly, and you're going to give yourself a headache and you're going to injure your eyes

On the road.

Back on this alignment bit, right, so people are getting bulbs that aren't meant for their cars. Is there also just an issue with alignment period with people who have led headlamps initially, very much so.

And it's not just with people who have legitimate lab headlamps. Headlamp aim is, by a giant margin, the primary main determinant not only of how well the driver can see, but how much glear they're throwing around. And headlamps, as they have evolved over the last five six decades, as they've grown more and more intense, they've grown more and more sensitive to miss aim.

This could be from something small like say you have a lot of people in your car, so you know, the car shifts a little bit, so not the lights aren't.

Exactly where you're supposed to be.

It could be from when you're driving, if you hit a bump, if the road is angled a little bit, or it could be something that you know over time, your headlights shift.

In the past. You know, a headlamp of the nineteen sixties or seventies, maybe eighties, if it was aimed you know, a degree or two this way or that can't really exert a huge change in the amount of light that the driver had to see on the road or the amount of glare they.

Were throwing around. Might look a little brighter.

As it passes you, but it's still a low beam headline. But a modern headlight beam which is very wide and has a sharp cut off at the top.

Of the low beam, where below this.

Cutoff line is very high intensity and above the cut off line is low intensity is dark. Low beams have such high intensity below that cutoff, the low beam aimed a degree or to too high could easily qualify as a high beam.

But that explains why we were saying. When the first time we talked right it felt like, why are people driving around with their high beams on. Right, It's like, oh, no, they're not. Their alignment is just off and the low beam now is you know, so much more advanced than it was in the past that it feels like people have their high beams on when they're driving at you.

Wow, this is this is nuts. That's huge because I had no faith in humanity.

Really thought everyone was just driving around.

I thought people were just like their eyesight was getting worse to something and they're just ripping the lights on like every time.

That's what it felt like.

Yeah, feels like headlight aim is not part of the inspection process. So when you go get your car inspected, headlight aim is not something that they're checking.

Yeah, the the aim is super important, and unfortunately it is almost impossible in North America. We just don't pay attention to headlight aim. It's almost impossible anywhere in North America. Even if you're standing there with a fistful of cash and saying, somebody, take my money and aim my head lamps correctly, it's really hard to get it done.

People had to auto shop aren't trained for that.

No, it's a really request exactly, at least in the US.

And some states you don't get your car inspected at all, like the Great State of Ohio.

That's why people get uh, the car is registrated in Ohio, right, the shitty cars really?

Yeah?

Oh my god.

Okay, So to recap, because led have lamps have such a small margin of error before they create a ton of glare, alignment is super important. But in the US this is not something we traditionally care about. And then, lastly, so our last rezone. Why is glare more intense now than it seems like it used to be?

Part of it is.

Us as we get older, and this is really unfortunate. This really sucks. As we get older, we need a lot more light to see any given thing, and at the same time, we get a whole lot more sensitive to glare.

So when we're.

Sixty, we need about triple the light that we needed when we were twenty to see any given thing under any given conditions at night, and we are massively more sensitive to glare. So, you know, if only one of those two things were true, it would be really easy to fix. But both of them are true, and so if you address the one thing, you aggravate the other.

So we're more sensitive to light, yes, and need more, I need it more. Yes, it's not a good place to be.

Is not a good place going to be.

This dichotomy sort of speaks to the really, really tough situation that the United States federal government finds itself in right now. They have to balance people seeing with also thinking about lair, which makes it harder for people to see. So I was curious, like, are is somebody working on this, you know, someone in the Trump illustration, like going to create a rule that your headlights can be only but so bright because you know there's so much claire in it's causing a huge issue.

And he said that something like.

Lair is both hard to define and then also hard to make.

Rules for the fact is this is this is not symmetrical safety situation. Yes, glare can be unsafe, absolutely no debate about that, and reach sure can be uncomfortable, but.

It's not a one to one thing.

Unfortunately, up to a fairly large degree, more light from the headlights means better safety, means less likelihood of a crash. So let me sort of address how this knot is tied. I think Unfortunately, for a long time, particularly in North America, there's been a tendency for the official response to glare complaints to be you'll get used to it or you won't, but just look away from it, just deal with it,

Can't do that in North America.

You have to say, well, here is concrete proof of the costs of glare in terms of the crashes that it actually causes, and so can we can regulate to the degree necessary to countervail those costs and that damage. It's essentially impossible, and so that's why we have so much less regulation of headlight glayer in North America than they have in Europe and in Asia and Australia and other countries that use a different regulatory system.

So you're saying that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, so they have not addressed this glare because there's not a lot of concrete sort of numbers that we have that glare cause x amount of accidents. Therefore we need to address it by doing this.

That's exactly right.

But it gets a lot more interesting than that, because for most of the twentieth century from the dawn of electric headlights on cars. Europe had much more stringent glare control than the United States did.

Can Europe actually save us? We'll find out after the break in Europe they have much more stringent their controls. Okay, so here's three things that Europe does that we do not do. Number one, so their headlight aim is much lower than ours.

You're in your Honda Civic, You're in your Chevrolet Corvette. You're in You're in a car. Well behind you is a pickup trucker, an suv, and it's head lamps are right, and they're way up in the air, and they're right even with your car's mirrors. Yeah, you're gonna get blasted. The rest of world regulations do two things to address that. You can't you can't completely cure it because this is just physics.

Yeah, some cars are taller than others.

Some cars are taller than others. The regulations in the rest of the world do two things to limit that. They have a lower maximum headlamp mounting hype and they say if you have a headlamp that is mounted higher,

Number two, So inspections in Europe they have headlight aim as part of that process, you know we talked about in the US, we don't do that.

They have periodic vehicle inspections that include headlamp aim and adjustment. The cars with high output headlamps have leveling systems to compensate at least for vehicle loading, and the fancier systems compensate for irregularities in the road.

And in number three, they have this magical system called ADB.

ADB a dB.

What is ADB, you.

May be asking, Am I am actually a dirty bastard?

Yeah.

ADB Adaptive driving Beam has been around for it's getting on for two decades now in Europe. A good ADB system can give the driver thirty meters about one hundred feet greater seeing distance without more glare than a low beam,

And for those who.

Don't know what ADB does is it takes that high beam pattern and it puts dark spots and slices in it, following the locations of other road users' eyes.

Gotcha, Okay, so there's a if there's an oncoming car, it'll try to limit the amount of light that's going into that oncoming drivers.

Hot, that's exactly right.

Listen to the lengths that Europeans go through to just like have like basic care about each other. It's so crazy.

This kind of blew my mind when I found out this was a thing that existed, especially because we talked so much about clear Obviously, he said there's some limitations to it. Yeah, if you get in a city and there's just cars everywhere, Yeah, there's only so much it can do, and there's you know, then it.

Just results back to the lot.

But I was like, oh, this is really interesting because it's a combination, but it also reduces glare. It seems like best case scenario, right, It's like you get as much visibility as possible, but you're also not obstructing other people driving.

It used to be.

Just in high end cars, but now it's in you know, like the version of a camera essentially, so it's in all all the cars. We do not have this technology in the US, So.

This isn't it's not like a regulation, is it, Like, do they need to have it?

It's optional.

Yeah, But because it's so, but it's common, yeah, yeah, I mean why not.

So if you're, for example, Toyota and you're making the same fucking car, but one of them is going to Europe and ones going to the US, they're like actively keeping ADB in the European one and not in the American one.

So I looked into it, and this is true. We have cars in the US that have ADB functionality, but it's been disabled. As people have been complaining about glare, there's been a growing movement in the US to get ADB.

ADB movement in or version of ADB in the US.

The US devises and promulgates its own regulations, which are in many cases quite different to the rest of world regulation. When it looked like ADB was going to gain traction and be a thing, NITSA went to the Society of Automotive Engineers.

So the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration otherwise known as NITSA told this group, hey, translate to European ADB for US regulations. And the group was able to do it in record time.

And NITSA said, yeah, thanks, but psych we're not going to use that. And then things got really interesting.

So here's what we get to President Biden in his infrastructure bail, which eventually became an infrastructural law, Congress tilled NITZA, Hey, actually you need to adapt this ADB system that that group put together. Is this actually Joe Biden's legacy instead of the stubborn old man who refused to drop out when it was clear that he shouldn't be running anymore, can he be the president who saves us from headline Blair turns out Now NITA said they're not going to use that system.

We're instead we are going to devise our own standard.

And they are saying we're not going to do it because actually we have a version that is more stringent than the version that you guys found off on. So I was like, Okay, more stringent, So yeah, maybe it's even better. Sure, you know, we do a lot of things better over here exactly, so maybe we're going to have a better version.

It exerts requirements that don't exist in terms of system design, construction, and testing it in the rest of the world regulation, and so it makes for a more expensive of less performance system.

So you're saying that they're thinking that their system is better because it is more restrictive, but you're saying that what they're proposing is not going to reduce GLAR more than the Euro version.

It's actually going to do.

It can't because the sort of a key difference is that the rest of world system says that the shadows for other drivers on the road that the system creates shall be as dark as possible.

The US specification says you.

May not make that shadow any less intense then a regular static lo being would be at that same point in the beam. So if the other driver or the other road user happens to be in front of your car in a location where a regular lo being would be very intense, well there's still going to be very intense. It will be less intense than it would be from a high beam, but it'll still be very intense because it's as though it's a full intensity.

LOWBOO is the baseline in the US version of what they're proposing here, that's right. I can't do anything less than that, whereas in the europe system, like you said, you can get as close to as dark as possible.

That's right.

Maybe NITSA looked at everything and had a good reason for deciding that the US needs a different ADB system that that does not reduce glare as much and is more expensive to make.

I reached out to NISA for comment, but they didn't respond because it's going to be more expensive and it seems like not as effective. It doesn't seem like automakers are going to voluntarily adapt the system in the US anytime soon.

Well, I think I think we will see it.

I mean, and the first US system is on the road.

The Rivian has it, Okay, I don't know anything.

About the the how how good the performance might be of that system by having driven it, so I definitely think it will be offered on premium, high end vehicles at a high cost. I don't think it's going to filter down to the popular priced vehicles.

Yeah, no one is. He doesn't have much hope for it. But there's another curve ball, what's what next run. Even in places like Europe that have ADB and you know, think about glare a lot more than we do in the US, glare complaints are still going up.

Wow, this is a gut punch.

This is.

This is hard to hear. So they've got all these precautions, all these regulations and all these stipulations are still and people still feel like we feel.

The fact that glare complaints, headlight glare complaints are up all over the world, even in countries with stringent glare controls and leaving ADB aside for the moment, because it's it's still most cars still just have low even HIGHBI

So if you had the wave of magic wand that it is its first two things you're addressing. You're you're changing the color of the headlands, and you're you're making a rule about luminance.

Ooh, that's a tough question. I often think about it in those very terms. What you know, how many wishes do I get with this magic wand before it burns out? I think it's it's a really tough call.

If I only get one.

But if if I only get one, then it really has to be. I wave the magic wand and poof all cars headlamps are aimed correctly and kept that way no matter what.

Okay, Now if you start to tell me I have two.

Or three, you'll give you three.

Okay, great, all right?

So that was that was That was my first one that you know, I waved the magic wand once poof all vehicles have their headlamps aimed correctly and they stay that way.

No matter what. Ye two and three.

Yeah, they're probably going to be a limit on luminants, which is going to mean headlamps have to get bigger again. They can no longer be this you know, tiny little strip of light or tiny little you know, three dots of light and uh, sort of roll back this this incessant trend towards bluer.

Light, get a get a warmer white light color.

So I asked him where do we go from here?

We just screwed.

He compared it to kind of like pollution and the evolution that I had right, Like, pollution was bad for a while and then eventually people are like this kind of sucks.

We don't want to live this way.

Yeah, and it was enough of a ground spell and then things started to change. But he's like, you got to be careful with this stuff because it's not a simple solution. And a lot of people think glare is so easy to solve, just do X, but it's not science backed. He says, science is slow and incremental. You're not going to have change overnight, right, so, and you need to make sure to change that you were asking for actually backed by science, not motion based.

And yes, glare is infuriating. It's infuriating. You can't get in the car and go to the grocery store for a carton of ice cream without getting assaulted by headlight.

Claire, that is infuriating.

And it you know, you spend time on Facebook or Reddit or wherever, and you want to vent and you want a rant, and it's easy to get on side with these charlatans, and they wind up sort of using up all the oxygen in the room and polluting the discussion space. I want to make it really clear that light clear is real. Yeah, it is a problem. It is a very complex problem because about all these moving parts and real lives are at stake no matter which way you go.

But I am.

Optimistic because I see political will developing. I see groups of respectable scientists really thinking about the problem in ways that they haven't before. And so I mean, leaving aside the fact that we're at the start of at least a four year period where regulators and regulatory agencies are are on the chopping block and scientists are likely to be muzzled, leaving that aside for the moment, if we can sort of carve out that luxury, I am optimistic.

Yeah.

I mean it's interesting just kind of honing in on the why don't we just make them yellow lights instead? Like I do wonder if that's just a kind of a taste thing that could seems like the most realistic thing to actually change like based on just habits or taste where people might think it's cool and retro even to have like that more natural light thing. So maybe just out of that more than the safety glare issue.

Well, they're shooting the new fast and fears now right, call it then, Diesel. Yeah, let's tell them, Hey, man, for these l eds, we need to We're gonna do some yellow light shit, get the kids thinking that yellow is cool again.

Yeah, it's your point.

I think I would love to make yellow cool again.

Yeah.

Maybe that's how we change things.

Up Fast eleven or twelve, whatever it is.

Yeah, I don't know which.

Were they might be. Yeah, I think it's eleven.

When they were just like, well, we're gonna shoot this in La now.

Yeah, no such thing. As produced by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, and me Devin Joseph. The theme song is by Manny. Additional music this episode provided by Certain Self. Special thanks to our guests this week, Daniel Stern. Daniel, thank you for the countless hours texts, emails you sent back and forth to make sure we get everything right for this episode.