Should the internet be a public utility?

I'm Noah, I'm Devin, I'm Rachel. And this is no such thing the show where we settle art arguments and yours by actually doing the research.

This week?

Why do I only have one option for Internet? And it's a bad one.

Then they pull out their little iPad and say, yeah, we don't offer the service, but glad to know you're interested.

Yeah, you just wasted both for our time. There's no no such thing, no such thing, such thing.

Okay, we are back this week in lieu of Manny. We are joined by Rachel ascona journalist and founder of Throwing Spaghetti Media.

Hi, Rachel, thanks for having me friend of the pod.

Yeah, that's your title. Do you have Internet?

I do have Internet?

Oka, and do you like your ISP?

Not particularly?

Okay?

Why not?

I don't.

I feel like it is constantly crapping out.

It doesn't reach some of the rooms in my apartment.

Oh I love that.

And they're like, oh, I can't go through the wall.

Why why I could not go through the walls?

That's an issue because my apartment has walls exactly the Internet. Yeah, of course I have Internet.

And how is that for you?

I'm old school, so not only do I have Internet. I also have cable all in one I got.

I got the bundle bundle.

Yeah.

I like watching my sports, my Mets, and I don't want to have to figure out how to do that on the internet, So yeah, I have both. I had Optimum for a while. It was pretty terrible, but it was my only option for most of the time. I was at my apartment, so I would call them and complain and I would say, basically, well, what the hell are you going to do because you can't get anything else, And I would be like, you're right.

But I'm still upset it's not working.

It's similar deserts, like you know, signal issues. There'll be times where it's just down for no reason. I've been weather related. Over the last couple of years, I've had for as and bios, which started out really strong. When I first got it, I was like, whoa, this is so much better. It's fiber or whatever they're saying, and it was in the beginning. Lately it's been not as great, but yeah, like I don't want to switch back to Optimum, so I'm kind of stuck.

Yeah, cross, I also have Internet, but sometimes I don't. Unfortunately, when I want, you know, I'm paying for it, and this is my issue.

And as someone who has the video, call for you. You haven't drop out.

It's been much worse slately. Yeah, he's been bit at bad.

Welcome to this column, may be recorded.

How can I help you today?

My internet is out one moment please, So you're dropping out on calls, they won't give you the day back, No.

Good luck trying to call get your money.

Yeah.

So yeah, that's what I've tried to do. Then I run speed tests with this company. I'll run them, I'll take screenshots every you know, ten minutes or something, so I have a document because I've called in the past. They say, okay, we can't do anything. I'll be like, oh it's been bad since Tuesday. I'm calling on a Friday. So they're like, well, we can't do anything because we didn't run the test. Then so they don't they don't believe it.

They must know.

And then yeah, it's like you're saying, they know I don't have another option. No, So the best I've got, like after begging for you know, spending basically my whole day on the phone with them, They'll give me like five dollars back and I'm paying, you know, over one hundred dollars for this. I've upgraded my service, so I'm getting one gig just to hope that I can even get half of what they're offering, because that's kind of

To pay me.

And if I can't, you know, upload a video can be a problem.

I'm on the phone with someone I'm gonna lose my job. I'm gonna lose my job and I'm gonna have to move. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm not gonna be able to pay you anything. Well that's basically what I'm saying.

I'm hoping just like you know, And they're like, first of all, my wife was the account holder. They're like, who are you talking to? I say, the account is Julia. They're like, so this is this is not Julia?

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Yeah, that's what I said.

I was like, you don't know who you're on the phone with Julia can have also like why would I why would.

I be calling?

I don't know what I would even be doing if I wasn't suffering from there.

Yeah, like I'm doing.

This to upgrade someone else's internet. But yeah, once I had a basically restart the whole process because they didn't believe that I was my wife, which was it's true, you are not. They were right that I'm not my wife, but they don't they don't. They shouldn't have known that. What's what's wild is that's like my my smallest issue

I've had this.

They're asking to get interest so then maybe they can push for.

You would think the people because I've had this too, They come to your door, they say, hey, do you want they were doing this with me your actual door, Yes, yeah, they're in the building, not even know how we got up here before walk up.

Yeah, that's actually very impressive. Who let you in first of all?

But then you coming they're off here and they're talking about, hey, yeah you thought about switching, and so yeah, I've thought about it.

But lest that chuck.

You guys don't offer the service.

I think about all the time.

The little iPad and say, yeah, we don't offer the service. But glad to know you're interested. Yeah, you just wasted both for our time that you could have looked that up earlier. How don't you know this? You're walking around here for the company and you don't know that you can't service men.

I want to know if you know these ISP's counts where you know in my neighborhood, say Crown Heights, Brooklyn, I only have one option?

Why is that not a monopoly?

Sounds like a monopoly to me.

Yeah.

So after the break, we're going to talk to someone who hopefully can answer some of these questions for us, and maybe I'll be better equipped to find a new.

Internet provider without moving.

Here's hoping.

All right, we're back. I'm Noah Devin Rachel.

We're talking about ISP's aka Internet Service providers and why I only have the option of one to try to answer some of these questions and hopefully maybe work towards solutions. We're going to talk to Emily Stewart, senior correspondent at Business Insider.

Hi, Emily, Hello, thank you Pard having me.

We'll introduce yourself a little bit in some of the reporting you've done.

Yeah, so I'm a reporter at Business Insider. What is my beat? Who knows? What do I cover?

I write about consumerism, right about the economy. I do sometimes write about scams, but more like the scam that is capitalism, the big scam, which is like where the ISP stuff comes in. Like candidly, a few years ago, I was very mad at my internet company and I was like, well, this is stupid, Like how in the world is this happening. I live in like one of the biggest cities in the world. Yeah, I'm like this candy, this difficult, and like, you know, that is the scam

So Emily, can we first start how are internet service providers set up in the US?

How are they made?

I mean, like as much as like we think of the Internet now as like Wi Fi right, like it's actually physical infrastructure and cables, and I think, like that's like I am not an Internet how it works expert, but I think sometimes like people forget there's kind of like a backbone of like fiber off the cables that going across the country, and then you get into like

Guy, being like when are you coming so that I can have cable?

And if you think about the names and like the companies you have, your cable company and your internet company are the same company, right, Like if I want cable, which do I want that nowadays?

I don't know.

Some people do. They're probably my internet company too, and even my phone company.

Yeah, we just already had the cable lines and we kind of added it.

I mean, we've had the cable lines. But it is like, you know, it's an ongoing project. Like I'm really started this like five years ago and it was like one in five New Yorkers doesn't have Internet.

Like that's not the case anymore.

Like I was talking to somebody versus the city this morning and I was like, you know, or does everybody have the Internet now?

And she was like, well, like yes.

But some of them can't afford it and some of them don't want it. But like, you know, I think a lot of the issue is this is like a big infrastructure project when you think about it, like you have to dig up streets, you have polls, like, you have all of these things. And so I think kind of the story of the Internet, not only in New York but everywhere. It's like once you've dug up the street and you've put in the cable, nobody wants to go behind you to do that again. So like a

AG and T do you guys want it on this too?

Like nobody's doing that, And so I think that's the issue, and like, you know, this is kind of like a rural urban problem, like I think sometimes like we hear a lot about rural broadband, which I know is not really like what we're talking about here, but like they are like different types of issues in rural I don't know, like Idaho, they don't necessarily have broadband because it's not lucrative for like a big company to send out the internet out there, right, And in like urban areas, it's

In a situation that we're all in separately. Did Optimum just say like, hey, we're going to take this area. How did that land grab happen?

Yeah?

I mean a lot of it is like you know, a city will say, or a municipality whatever, we'll.

Say we need internet here.

So like you make a deal with a company and you say, all right, we're going to let you come in, and like maybe we'll give you some subsidies, maybe we won't, or maybe like you'll promise up in order to like wire up our city or our area.

You will give us like a public access TV channel like whatever it would be. And there's a lot of it's cable too.

Yeah, and so now you like wind up in a situation where there's just all of these like natural monopolies. Basically, like I said before, like it kind of makes sense to some extent. Yeah, if you build out the whole thing, like you're not going to be super eager to let somebody else do it. It's also a little bit complicated because a lot of states also have laws that saying, like certain municipalities can't do their own broadband, and so like we really kind of let.

The companies take over, and companies.

Don't want to compete, right like, they want to make as much money as they can for as many people as they can and deal with as few competitors as possible, and so like we wind up with this situation where like, yeah, maybe this has happened for a reason, but also like is this ideal when you are calling your internet provider and like begging for a discount.

So I asked how internet service compares to public utilities like electricity, gas, or water. Emily said, the stronger comparison is to the mail, meaning we don't think about the postal service as a utility, but if it was completely privatized to the reality is many areas like say rural Montana simply wouldn't have the mail because it wouldn't make

So does it mean in a practical sense, Let's say, let's say electricity or water, right like, so, like, you know, New York State is building the infrastructure, you know, for the most part, for those things. And then if you're building a building, obviously you're you know, building the pipes

Right, and like maybe we will give you some subsidies or like make some special agreements with.

You, but like incentivies you to do that, right, Like, hey, also if.

We give you a bunch of money to build out these lines and like, oh, you guys had other expensive views on Like there you go. And that's kind of I think then the story like across kind of the Internet being built out of like you know, companies are making deals with cities, with states, with governments, and like you know, a company's incentives are just different.

Yeah, and like it's yeah, it's basically purely a market thing where it's like we know tons of people live here and need internet, so we'll provide for them. It's not like we all agree everyone agrees people need water, Yeah, so let's get the water. There's most people want internet, and people will buy it, but it's not a necessity in the same way, yeah, or as we see it.

Yeah, I think as we see it is probably the key because I think it's like now become almost as much of a necessity to live, to work, to pay bills, to literally do so many things that even yeah, even somebody who's disconnected theoretically, yeah, banking something like you, there's so many things you do need it for that It's like, at what point are we going to realize that it is actually a necessity the same way electricity wasn't always a necessity?

Ye, right, Well, if you like, think back to the pandemic, even with those pictures of kids sitting outside of a McDonald's schoolwork, those were kids that didn't have.

Internet at home.

After the break? Am I fighting a monopoly?

Can you first define and we've thrown around a little bit, can you define a monopoly?

And then I want to see if this is one.

I mean monopoly is basically like a company where it's the only game in town, and like in town, I.

Mean like a specific market, not in the world.

I mean you think about it in a lot of different ways, Like a lot of people would say, like Amazon is a monopoly, right, like in terms of just e commerce, and like it as much as like maybe Walmart's a competitor, like is it I don't know or like to beers the Diamond Company for a long time was the monopoly. Sometimes when I think about monopolies, I also think about this sounds born like oligopolies, which is sometimes and I think it's a lot more common across

And like I am a little bit of a monopoly.

Not like I try not to be liked, but like it is one of those things when like when you start to see it, you see it everywhere, when you realize that like what you think is like your cute little craft beer.

Is made by is owned at least by Anheuser.

Bush's so crazy it really is like, oh man, like there's no such thing a small business.

Right, you're seeing a different label. Yeah, yeah.

Do you think monopolies are bad and why or what are the issues?

I think this in an ideal like healthy economy, we want competition, right, And the big problem with a monopoly or noologopoly is when companies don't have to compete when they have so much power, consumers lose out, workers lose out, et cetera. The way that we kind of deal with monopolies and like anti trust policy right now is very much the consumer standard. It's like, is the consumer spending more money? And if they are, then that is bad.

Bad right.

I think also though, like sometimes we don't think about the other.

Consequences of monopolies, Like it's also.

Bad for labor, right, it's bad for wages if you have a ton of power and workers can really work at one company like there you go, or like suppliers, like if you want to sell out Walmart, you have to do what Walmart says.

The same thing with Amazon. Like I've done a lot of reporting.

Like talking to small businesses most of them will say, like you with Amazon, it's like a real trade off, Like I have to be there because otherwise I will not reach people. Also like I have to deal with you know exactly their terms in terms of how much, but could they take in terms of their return policies.

Can you tell the story about the diapers company with them in Amazon, because I feel like this company time time again of like Amazon wanting to get into a space and then just lowering the prices and then like basically buying out the company.

Yeah, So basically it was like twenty ten, Amazon sees this diaper company, Quizz, and was like, hey, hey, like we would like to buy you, Like looks like you guys are doing good work, and like the company's like.

No, no, we can like do this on our own. We'll grow on our own.

And then Amazon like turns around and launches basically its own version of this diaper service, and it like kills the company and they ultimately have to agree to be sold to Amazon.

Let's check in on some of today's top corporate news. According with to two people rather with knowledge of the matter, Amazon near an agreement to buy Quitsy, this is the owner of diapers dot com and soap dot Com, for five hundred and forty million dollars. Amazon found an unlikely competitor in the company, which in its early days simply brought I don't know the place of diapers to costco

And I think that's why, Like Amazon is like a tricky one, and they will say like we're absolutely not on a novel, like look at how we keep prices low, and like sure, but also nobody can compete with Amazon, like you have to be on there, and like you know, they also say they're keeping prices low, which sure, probably, but also like there is a world where I think at least a reasonable person could say, if there were more Amazon's, would prices be low? Or because you can

Basically, I feel like the price on Amazon aren't even that low anymore. Like when it first came a thing, it was like, oh my god, you're paying nothing for all of these products. And now it's like the same price, if not maybe a little more than like me going downstairs at the convenience store and like figuring that out.

Yep.

Following that, can we kind of broaden out on us anti trustpowe, can you give us in broad strokes maybe how attitudes have changed as far as the government's role in it over the past century.

Yeah, I mean I think that, you know, like anti trust policy dates back to eighteen hundred and nineteen hundred.

It's like it's Clayton Act, the Suremanact done.

Like there are certain things around like right, like if two companies are emerging, like, yeah, is that anti competitive?

Does that mean there will be less competition that they will be bad?

The big story, at least like in modern day is like kind of what's happened since like the seventies and eighties, an I trust policy became like much more market focused, kind of like the market will take care of itself.

Like I don't know.

And then you see, like under the Biden administration, you have Lena Khan come into the FTC and she's pretty aggressive, doing big cases and you know, trying to like enforce these antitrust laws, and she has a different kind of theory of the case.

The idea is that if a company is being abusive towards its customers, those customers can go elsewhere. But if you see a persistent pattern of a company raising prices, degrading service, making it impossible to actually get somebody on the phone, all these big and small ways that the consumer experience is worse and you don't see defections. Similarly, you can see the same thing on the worker side.

That can be direct evidence.

Of monopoly power, that companies are at a stage where they can make things worse without losing out in the market.

And even like the Trump administration is keeping some of these cases around against like Meta against Google. But I think, you know, we also have to realize the courts have a role in this as well. Like just because the DOJ Susan says Meta you shouldn't have been able to have Instagram and what's that doesn't mean that like a judge is going to agree.

So then from here in Brooklyn and I can only have one option for Internet. Does that qualify as a monopoly in your eyes and then in the eyes of the law?

I mean, I think so, I don't think it's in a monopoly that the FGC or like TISS Games, like the AG of New York could like come after and be like yeah, But I think that like in general, I guess I will say on the Internet, I as a person who also has one option, like it is getting better to some extent with wireless, and like five G.

Basically is that like an exact competitor. I don't know my neighbor you sits a T Mobile Home Internet.

Yet if went to a T Mobiles wireless five G network, so all I got into was plug in one court T Mobile five G home Internet.

But so this idea of five G is that, hey, you don't need to get internet installed in your home with a router and the Wi Fi because we're gonna use the same basically the same way you get internet on your phone.

Yeah, it's essentially hot spotting.

Yeah, you can get for your computer through that same Is that the thing?

Yeah, I mean that's the thinking.

And like I feel like T Mobile is constantly like, don't you want to come over here?

And it's like, I know, is that is that good? Is it as good?

And I think that's the question. But I do think you can't look at the situation here, like in your own little neighborhood and say like this is a monopoly and maybe it's not like exactly Optimum's fault or Whoever's fault they're doing this like they're enjoying this situation and like you are not.

Okay, thank you.

So I'm gonna accept that the Internet is a monopoly. How's the US approach to antitrust? How does that differ from like Europe and other in Asia and other areas around the world.

You know, Europe in general has just been more aggressive on corporate power. I read a book by this economist named Thomas Philippon, and he talked about in France with the Internet specifically, what they did was put in a regulation that required Internet companies to lease out like that last mile I was talking about, of their wires, like like a little bit, and that would let competitors come in.

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

Did you know that Mint's unlimited premium wireless for fifteen dollars a month is back and that is like basically the big phone companies like AT and T wouldever have extra space or whatever, and they will let other players get in.

And offer a cheaper option. So that's something's like mint Mobile, the.

Bigger company in this instance, they just don't want to spend the time or resources to use that last mile.

Well, they have some marketing I mean, like on like the phone that it's a marketing thing, right, Like I don't know how many people like are like I saw Ryan Reynolds, but like it does allow them to like get into like more niche markets and as like, you know, as much as these companies, you know they are very big, there are markets that they want to get into, and like if that's a way to get in, like sure, so.

Then say in France or some or somewhere else, do they tend to have less of these issues as far as people not having choice for internet?

Do you at least it's cheaper and I mean it's cheaper, but also like you'll have like more options, and that's ideal. Like it's not saying like, oh, these companies can't exist anymore. It's like you should like play by like fair rules of the game and like a lot of these companies we know have like a lot of ways of keeping competitors out.

So that's how we kind of wind up where we.

Are policy wise.

If you know, they give you a big pen tomorrow and you get to write up some policy for the United States.

A big beautiful bill.

Yeah, well to fix the internet issue for me, for Noah specific, Yeah, what would I mean, like, what.

Are these sorts of policies you think would help?

Then, Like do you think would be more of these kind of last mile things or what?

A few years ago I did a little bit of a pronoun like Tattanooga, Tennessee, and I think they're like kind of a good example of what you can do that's actually like kind of small, and like this is one where like maybe the answer is like yes, we make like the Internet of public utility.

But basically they did is they had like.

You know, they're electric grit or whatever, and they were like, we're going to use this to create like a public Internet that's like pretty cheap for people like ten months a month or whatever.

Chattanoogaans will now be the first to have a community wide five er optic network delivering up to ten gigabits of Internet service. It's the first of its kind in the US. It will be offered to every home of business in a six hunt mile area. A study recently released by UTC finance professor Binto Lobo shows the GID network helped the Chattanooga area generate at least twenty eight hundred new jobs and close to nine hundred million dollars.

And they did it, and they really had some like pushback, like one of the big telecom companies like sued them, and they did wind up with like some limits, like they weren't allowed to do this, like outside of the cydy limits.

But I think like that's something that could really work.

It's like, you know, a town doing this now, Yeah, problem there is like something like twenty states have laws like saying the municipalities can't do this.

That is the power of lobbying. So you know, that's a tricky one.

Rural broadband is a very popular thing to say politically, and there have been a lot of efforts at that. The tricky part there is sometimes these companies like get these subsidies, get these plans, and like does that mean they are building out necessarily?

No?

You know, so that kind of stuff. It's something that really has to be taken care of it every level. Like yeah, it feels to me like if we could just have these companies have to lease out at least some of theirself, like that would help a lot. Like and I'm not asking for eight internet providers, but I feel like if I just had two, like I would have exactly like I could call and be like I believe and they wouldn't be able to like, you know, you're not.

That's all I want to because even if even if they gave they offered me the ten dollars horrible internet option, I would I wouldn't use it, but I would be happy that it's there.

It's all. It makes me feel slightly better, all.

Right, So I guess for now the best thing we can do is call and hope whoever's on the other side take some pity, and then maybe I'll be writing to the mayor about this last mile is the shame?

Who should I talk to about government?

Is? Like?

Is anyone advocating?

You know?

So we know the lobbies are part of why this is an issue.

Are there any lobbies for me?

I mean there aren't, Like there is some actional like in New York on like at least helping for paying like I think at the state level, there's.

Some stuff going on, like it's hard.

I mean, if only because like I mean, we have it like in New York we have like a giant budget shortfall right now, right and like as much as I wish that, like Zoron Number was like I need bios to also come to Flatbush, like it is not

It's like the building next door they are like the apartment upstairs will take years.

Yeah, but yeah, otherwise I think, just like call and like I don't know, should you be nice, should you.

Threaten to leave? Yeah? Try and like get the other.

Person's vibe and maybe they're having a good day and then you can have a year of a discount.

Before it's bad again.

And I did make my wife add me as an authorized user of the account, so I don't need to hide my anymore change to be like vague when I'm saying, like, do you have the account?

Is Julia? Yes, I'm calling on behalf. Yeah, well, thank you, Emily. This is great.

I can't say I feel better about the situation, but at least I know something more.

I'm sorry.

We're not not doing something so simple and easy.

It does just suck.

That doesn't make feel letter. Maybe I'll move to Chattanooga.

Yeah, maybe, I mean it's probably nice there.

I'll get some space.

So this conversation was very informative, validating, and pretty disappointing as far as the state of my internet situation. And then guess what happened while I was editing this episode together.

My internet went out.

So I did what I've done many times before and caught up my ISP.

Welcome to me.

This column may be recorded.

How can I help you today?

My internet is kind of going in and out today, and I want to make.

Sure it's fixed.

And I would love to get a, you know, any sort of reimbursement because now I have to redo a bunch of work and I'm a worried, you know, I won't be able to get my work done today.

I might lose my job. I was extremely frustrated.

I've done this song and dance dozens of times and received pretty much nothing in return.

I'm just plased to tell you I'm very sorry about what happened. I know he wants to be very portating for you. Yeah, not to worry.

I'm gonna do my best much, but this time was different.

I'm gonna apply you a credit and it's gonna view the same amount of credits for five years. Your bill is going to be a object onto it dollars for the same internet speed you have right now?

Okay, so lady, are.

You some much that the order for you and everything is good to Is there anything else of you that's just you?

I know that's all. Thank you.

You're welcome, sir. It was a pleasure to speak with you today. Make God bless you and hold you up on the book.

So maybe a competitor is moving into my neighborhood. Is five G wireless or Ryan Reynolds taking over? I'm not quite sure. But to the benevolent customer service king on the other side of the line this time, no such donation. Salutes you, thank you for your services.

Hows hows hows how's thanks?

No?

No, Such Thing as a production of Kaleidoscope content. Our executive producers are Kid Osbourne and Mangesh Hotz, a Cadur. This show was created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, and Devin Joseph Theman. Credit song by Manny Fidel. Our guests this week are Emily Stewart and Fill and co host Rachel Ascanazi. Visit No Such Thing dot Show to subscribe to our newsletter for related links and more. If you have feedback for us or a question, our email is

It really helps a lot and we'll be back next week with a new episode.

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