Is recycling a complete scam? (PART 1)

What's up nst heads. So, this right here is part one of a two part episode. The second part is out now as well, but this is the one you should listen to first. It is part one, so enjoy and make sure you tap into part two to finish the story and without further ado. Part one of two on the Big Truths and Big Lies about recycling. I'm Manny, I'm Noah, this is Devin and this is no such thing the show where you settle our dumb arguments and

I No, There's no no such thing.

No touch, thank.

Touch, thanks.

Touch, thank.

Thank so.

This week is a topic that we've been thinking about for a while, and a listener of ours also had the same question recently. Liz asked this, does recycling do anything or does it just make us feel better when we put things into the bin and send it away. This is one of those topics that for years I've thought about, and you know, every few months I feel like I would see a news story a headline come by that said basically like the truth about recycling, and

Hi, guys, nice to see you.

Mind introducing yourself.

I do a podcast called Smart Girl Dumb Questions, which I'm realizing there's no such thing as a.

Ormo.

But yes, years ago, I did write or actually it was a video with The New York Times the Great Recycling Con. I can't claim to be a recycling expert, and I can't say that that has changed my behavior as.

Much as it should have. So yeah, so don't spoil anything. Yeah, we'll get into that later.

Except for the word con.

I do have that out.

That's okay, that's just that's a New York Times editorializing. Yeah, to begin, how do we all feel about recycling?

Well, how do we feel about it? Yeah?

Like emotionally, yeah, I mean do you do you enjoy it?

Do you do it?

I don't even have any guilt about not doing it.

No, I do I do it. I think.

I think I try to recycle too many things. I feel like most of the things i'm quote unquote recycling or putting in a recycling man probably don't get recycled, but in my mind I have to do it.

Everyone. Once in the blue, I'll.

Get like a plastic container from like a takeout place and throw it in the regular garbage and I feel, you know, like you just killed really shouldn't do that.

But recycling is annoying.

The most annoying thing about recycling is that the recycling can is never as big as the garbage can. But then the recycling stuff takes up so much more space, so it's like, yeah, so it's like a big inconvenience in like your home, all right, And then you're like, why am I even like does this even work?

And how when you're sorting, how are you sorting? How much sorting are you doing? Just recycling bin for everything.

I have one recycling bin for everything.

My apartment building does not short in anything, so I'm not shorting stuffcause y'all all short stuff. So that's when you go downstairs to put into the bins. There's just recycling bins' just supposed to be cardboard and paper supposed to be separated from the plastic. But they don't do that, so I'm not doing it either. Yeah, somebody, somebody will figure it out at some.

Point or not.

Job creating your job exactly, I'm creating a shorter but I try to, you know, I try to fold up my boxes and do that sort of thing. I guess my overall emotion around recycling is I I think it's fake. I don't think it is actually happening, But I do do it because I feel like I don't want to be you know, you're not going to be the one who's I'm not problem exactly. I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. If down the line y'all aren't doing what y'all supposed to do, that's on you. But we talked

I was I was looking.

I was looking at the filtering.

Exactly, but I was gett you know, it was time to replace the filter. So I'm looking at the filter, they'd be like, can I recycle this? And then I read the box and it's like, oh, you can recycle it if you put it in a box and ship it to wherever and then we'll recycle it for you. And I was like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. I have to ship something so you can recycle it. Doesn't that offset the whole purpose of recycling?

If not overc It's like, it's not like a drop off location.

No, it's like in New York City.

You gotta you gotta mail it off, mail off my filter to get recycled. I think the carbon footprint of me mailing it offsets me recycling, and they.

Don't send you a new one or something. It's not.

For me recycling.

What about when you have like takeout and you're rinsing the things to recycle them, when you're using so much water and you're like, does this thing even recycle? I gott to rinse it because you can't put your dirty debris in that.

Yeah, you gotta clean it up.

I was dealing with this just last night because Monday is garbage and recycling, and my basic view is that, Like, I want to be a good citizen, but they make it too difficult. Every week I'm pulling up bag. Yeah, and so I just found myself doing this last night and I was like, this is terribles. I don't want to do this anymore. The drop off location for my Brita filter is the garbage can. I'm not doing any extra work. I think the government should make it a little bit easier.

But if they gave you a replaceable filter for free, if you recycled yours, what do you recycle it?

Like? Would I ship it and you get a replacement.

As opposed to spending nine dollars?

I don't know.

I'm also not good with money. I'll just buy like I should just that would be the smart thing to do.

Yeah, but I'm a timers money guy to yah where I'm like, oh, I got it, like print a label and like I'll s throw it out.

The British should come with a package that you mail it out, and it should come with two so that way you you know you always have one immediate.

All right, Chief Strategy Britt is listening, and you know I don't need to do this anymore.

I'll the sponsor I'm very aligned with you all where it's like I separate, I put the things in the bin. My garbage areat my building is not separated at all. So it's just like it's going with God. From the little headlines I taken in. Yeah, I don't think this is going anywhere. At some point I thought, Okay, they're sending it to China, and maybe China's doing it.

Mm hmm.

I don't know this with absolutely zero knowledge about what happens after I do my recycling.

Yeah, but it does make me feel better about buying glass bottles of coke.

You have a plastic bottle coke there.

It doesn't taste as good and doesn't recycle as well apparently. But but here's an anti feminist moment, which is to say, I actually, really, when I'm in a relationship, don't deal with recycling or trash. I feel like those are man duties in a home.

I'm not going to saying the case in.

My home, right, Yeah, well, like I'm not getting canceled.

We'll be canceled by my wife.

He doesn't want to get canceled from his new Brida job.

Job. And then I think we should also say this varies right like city by city and state by state, like in New York, I mean, are super like I've gotten in trouble multiple times for recycling something incorrectly, and then my super will be like, look, if you keep doing this, we're gonna get fine.

Yeah, buildings are supposed to get fine for cycling correct.

So now I'm recycling so that he doesn't get fined, not necessarily to save the earth. I remember there's also some stuff where you're supposed to put all their cycling in a clear bag for slack bags for.

The trash so they can sort through it.

And then you know, I've heard other people say their buildings are definitely on them about this, and then it obviously varies so much where it's like this can't be that big of an issue if and a lot of buildings aren't doing.

This, But in other countries all over the world, like it's very in the UK they will actually find you if you if you don't compost, like they'll find you as the owner and or the unit.

And in Europe, I mean, they're.

Just they're much like I think, they're just much better about these kinds of common good.

Problems and separate bins and stuff to.

I've noticed even in Australia's like there's a water shortage, showers are going to be like six minutes. Imagine telling Americans they can only shower for six minutes.

Don't tell me that we've already for three amount of time than we do.

Yeah.

Three, not for water, not for water, not for.

For antibacterial reasons, yeah, and just health washing away your naturally like what you need versus what you want.

Go away to put it like that shower thing just comes up every episode. It sounds like we're all aligned. But let's do a vote. Does anyone here think recycling works? And I would like to believe it's doing something, But in your heart of hearts, uh, you know, I throw this out. What's happening? You gotta be doing something right. They're putting it in a different place than your garbage, is what I think is happening.

I think a very small percentage of stuff. Actually.

I think in the beginning, when we were like in elementary school, when we were recycling, I feel like that was the golden age.

I think feel like they were really psychling.

Do you think that's because you were in middle school?

No, I think that they were actually doing stuff back then.

Around down to the c I feel like where he was doing.

The issue now.

Back then, not everything was recyclable, and we weren't, you know, like we had a limited amount of things that we were recycling. Now every single thing is recyclable. Yeah, which there's just too much stuff. We're not using this much.

When I was a kid, it really felt like just like soda cans.

In Santa Claus was a live guys.

I mean, I have to say, I don't know that the technology has gotten worse with time.

No, I'm not saying it's gotten worse. I think we just have more things that we're trying to recycle.

We used to, like recycle those plastic bags from Zachermarkets and stuff. I think it existed, we just weren't the ones consuming them and we didn't. I feel like it works with glass and aluminium, but when it comes to plastic, I think it's like I forget the number and I don't want to scoop it.

Like I feel, Yeah, my guess is material by material, there's a variance. But I think kind of what I guess what Devin is saying is because there's so many things we're expected to try to recycle, and I think that complicates matters even more.

But when you're when we're kids, I do think I thought recycling was magic. Like I thought, if you have sneakers, they will one day become a basketball court, you know, or like if you have a plastic bag one day become a park that and like everything was beautiful because Captain Planet.

You just put it in and it comes out something new. But I will say this for the purposes of this episode. If it turns out to be the case that this is not really doing anything, I'm going to be writing a very strongly worded letter like we are doing so much work to or Mudania, all right, why we're well, I mean we're doing so much work at home. I would be devastated to find out that it's not really doing anything.

But what if we find out I think this episode, outside of the laundry episode, has the biggest chance to change my personal behavior. Yeah, because if it turns out it's not doing anything, then I'm not reciting what do anymore?

Throwing the garbage, It's all going to be in the black bag. Yeah, they're not gonna be black check.

Maybe you should over your ears for the rest, will you stop buying stuff.

That's I think, like, that's.

Gonna be my story when my super comes around, I'm gonna be like, actually, I don't purchase anything to recycle. That's why you're not seeing any recycling.

I'm a real environmentalist who writes strongly worded letters.

Yeah, on Tuesdays.

Well, why don't we answer some of these questions after the break, we're gonna hear from an advocate against the big plastic industry.

Oh all right, fellas, I need you to help me with a problem that I got. You know, usually we're the ones helping other people with their problems. But I'm about to go abroad and I'm going to watch Met games. Noah, how can I watch them?

That's a tough one.

Maybe get a really large telescope.

I don't think that's the best way to do it. Manny, do you have any solutions on how I can watch Mets games?

You broad I think I've got a slightly more practical solution for you, Devin. If you use nor VPN, you'll be able to change the location of your laptop's IP address and watch the content with no problem. What about my privacy online? I'm worried someone's watching me. First of all, no one is watching you, Noah, but in case someone was watching you, NordVPN provides you with privacy online, leaving

Sounds comfy.

So many I've heard about these VPNs and how they're super slow?

How do I make sure my internet is not throttling?

If you want to use a VPN without slowing down your internet, Devin, You're gonna want to use NordVPN because whenever I use it, I don't see any buffering or lagging while I'm streaming my favorite content.

How do I get NordVPN, Devin?

If you or our listeners want to get the best discount off of your NordVPN plan, go to NordVPN dot com slash nst. Our link will also give you four extra months on the two year plan, and there's no risk because Nord has a thirty day money back guarantee. The link is in the show notes. That's NordVPN dot com slash nst We are back. I'm Manny, Noah, am I allowed to say my name is now you are, yeah, and we are figuring out the truth behind recycling. Wow,

So my name is Davis Allen. I'm an environmental historian by training. I work as an investigative researcher at the Center for Climate Integrity, where we provide support for communities that are holding big oil accountable through litigation.

So Davis Allen has working on this for years. His group has put out a bunch of really in depth reports investigating plastics and recycling and kind of some of the what they would say are lies of the big oil industry. We're mainly focusing on plastics recycling for the purpose of this. The main kind of thesis is that recycling as we know it is basically essentially a pr

You feel better.

But throwing the stuff in the garbage.

Who do you think packed for all those ads used to as a kid when you're a hunky doory recycling.

All we check the credits to Captain Planet.

I don't know.

It's green heartbreaking. If there's something sinister behind Captain Planet, I don't know. I think they're well, yeah, I will look at that. Quick side note here, I did look into it, and Captain Planet is innocent, so don't worry about that.

Greenwashing. Greenwashing.

Yeah, I didn't know about this, so first I opened up with a big one. I asked Davis. One of the most common misconceptions about recycling that it does anything, it works, Yeah, that exists.

I think the biggest misconception really is the idea that because of recycling, a disposable consumer economy is not a major environmental problem, because it perpetuates a feeling among people using these products that there isn't really a major environmental impact because whatever the product is just getting cycled back through system and turning into a new product. And that's unfortunately just not how recycling works. In the vast majority

So basically there's a misconception that recycling is offsetting some of the more gross things we do with consumer products. But in reality, it's just like what like a drop in the bucket compared to Yeah, and basically like kind of what Naima was saying, where we have this image from middle school where it's like you put the thing in the bin and then it comes out as a new product. Totally you don't lose anything. Yeah, just like

So the biggest problem with things not getting recycled is just that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to recycle the vast majority of plastics, recycled plastic, once you have it as a new sort of material, a new raw form of plastic to be turned into something is pretty low quality. It's well suited for things like trash cans, ironically, recycling bins, plastic crate that holds the materials that are getting shipped, things like that, but it's not the kind of plastic that is useful.

For most applications.

The reality is, when we're using all these plastic products, they have pretty particular specifications for what they need it to be able to do, and recycled plastic doesn't meet most of those specifications.

So that's basically how recycling does or doesn't work these days.

It's a scam.

Way did this story from the New York Times. It was like twenty nineteen.

But it's like the cost of making a new plastic bag from like a plastic bag is much higher than just making a new plastic bag, So why would a company then make a plastic bag from an old plastic bag or whatever the case may be in sir, So, yeah, it enables consumption because we feel so virtuous, we have like a little halo. This guy is going to take the halo off our head.

Truly. Yeah, Ask what are plastics and where do they come from?

Yeah? That I don't know.

Actually, plastics come from many different raw materials. Some of the materials are natural like water and air. Some are growing things like corn and potatoes. Others are minerals such as oil, coal, and limestone. From these various raw materials, chemists derive many different chemicals, which, when combined properly, will form plastics.

There's often the misconception that plastic is one thing. In reality, there are thousands of different chemicals that make up plastics, So they're really an extremely broad category of materials that happen to share some key characteristics. I'll say, in particular, the vast majority, something like ninety nine percent currently are made of fossil fuels, and they're engineered to address lots of particular use cases. But yeah, there are a really wide, diverse group of materials.

But they just make it like they create it in a lab.

Yeah, yeah, from oil downstream stuff that they don't need to like pump into the vehicle.

Yeah.

Okay, Yes, this is a dream of the future. Get out of such dreams has come all that we call progress. So in the years ahead, dreams like this and many more will become realities.

So now we're going to kind of go back and do a little history lesson on plastics becoming disposable. So I was curious, like when did people even start to care about single use plastics and waste. Disposable plastics were introduced post World War Two. Before that, plastic was largely seen as a more durable material, so products like radios. Then the plastics industry realized they would make more money if they made disposable ducks instead of one as you

In the report, we talk about an instance in the fifties in which many infants choked on plastic dry cleaner bags were killed by plastic dry cleaner bags in a single year. And that was a particularly interesting example where you see in a one moment in time it go from a durable concept of plastics to a disposable one, because you literally had DuPont, who was making the bags, telling people you can keep this bag, you can do all kinds of things with it, you can cover your

Good Evening, a unique day in American history, is ending, a day set aside for a nationwide outpouring of mankind seeking its own survival. Birthday, a day dedicated to enlisting all the citizens of a boutiful country and the common cause of saving light from the deadly byproducts of that body the fouled skies, the filthy waters, the litterardary.

The first Earth Day was a catalyst for so many environmental movements, but it was especially significant for the plastic system, where people recognize this stuff is ending up in the environment, and it was a first backlash against disposable plastics. That was a catalyst for the industry trying to figure out, what are we going to do? How are we going to resolve this new public relations nightmare, And they initially go to landfilling and incideration and then just looking into recycling.

Right from the beginning.

We have docks from the early nineteen seventies where the Society of the Plastics Industry, which was working on behalf of all the big plastic producers, was trying to figure out is recycling feasible? Basically, is recycling something that could offer solution. They didn't really promote it early on because their initial finding was no, it's not.

A good solution for plastics.

So it really only came later that they began to promote it as a solution.

So in short, it's basically like Earth they happens, people are like, hey, this seems pretty bad. Then they're like, okay, we'll just burn it all and everyone's like cool. And then after like twenty years, people are like, oh, maybe burning stuff isn't so good, and then they're like, okay, we can we'll recycle. And that's kind of lines up with us growing up with all this recycling propaganda.

Yeah, nineties prime.

Recycling that the baby story is so much bad, I'm sure as a new father.

Oh yeah, oh my god. I mean every day I'm like, am I gonna kill this baby by accident? I can't believe. So what do the even dry cleaning bags, like the bags or seed would come back in? Yeah, big ones.

But y'all remember when we were younger, it was a big thing of our parents being like, never put a plastic bag over your head. Yeah, I'm assuming it's because of this that story are their stories?

Wow?

I mean I can't believe, like this industry is just like surviving and writing like baby killings.

Development in the industry is a like a pr move. Yeah, oh yeah, fix some previous mistake. Okay, So we heard a lot about what plastic is, how we got so much of it, and how we landed where we are today. As far as recycling being a big sort of solution to deal with it. After the break, Davis is going to tell us why he thinks big recycling is basically a fantasy made up to guilt trip little people like you and me to take responsibility for a disposable consumption culture that's mostly.

Out of our control.

So now we're going to dive into Davis's main piesis that recycling is a way to push a narrative of guilt onto us, the consumer, rather than looking towards the big oil companies actually producing and profiting from all of this plastic waste. And remember this is just part one.

I think that is true.

I think that's the exact trajectory of what happened really, they knew that recycling was not viable for the vast majority of plastics, and they knew that it wasn't a solution. Even when plastics can be recycled, that process degrades the quality, and so it's not something that can keep happening over

And I'm like, none of us can avoid using plastics.

They have made it virtually impossible to not rely upon plastics every day. You know, the vast majority of these things don't need to be plastic, but it remains a really effective business model to make people feel bad about it while also continuing to produce endless amounts of it.

To be honest, rereading the report made me feel better because it's like, Okay, well, this is kind of it's not all my fault, you know, you know, backwards away, it's kind of like, okay, like, I know I don't soar it perfectly, but it's out of my hands.

I think that should be the takeaway really. Of course, it's incredibly demoralizing to you realize how we have been lied to and manipulated and all of these things. But at the same time, it's, yeah, you see how this stuff happens. You see the way that they were talking to each other at industry conferences and things. This is not the fault of the people using the plastic in the vast majority of cases, and there's just nothing you

In my own.

Life, I have still adjusted some of my behaviors and I like try to reduce my plastic.

Usage in various ways. But I also recognize that's mostly for me.

That's mostly because of the way that it makes me feel about it, not the fact that it actually is contributing very much. Because these companies are making just ungodly amounts of plastic and we're not part of that in any way. The recycling thing is a distraction. It's not anything to do with the actual problem.

I mean, there you go.

That's a good word. That's a better word than colin. Actually, yeah, that's a really good over here.

Yeah, I think I feel like that's you see that so much, especially with any climate related things, Like think about flying, It's like, okay, I could not take a flight my two flights a year that I take. Meanwhile, you know it's like people in charge of these things are flying every day.

Yeah, the carbon off sets, you can just buy carbon off sets that seems like a distraction too.

Yeah, you're probably, yeah, and it's.

Like someone making money. Why I'm paying more money to offset?

Like why me.

Someoney tell you to you know, not use your air conditioner. It's like, okay, I can see the argument here. But also there's all these gigantic buildings in Manhattan that are running twenty four seven. It's like, maybe we should start with someone else.

But that's different even because like by not I mean like I actually do do those some of those things, because I feel like, okay, if if everyone were to do this action, then this thing would be This is like even if you do this action, this action is dumb, so you're just wasting your time.

Action is nice, which, to be.

Clear, you should still recycle, especially blast aluminium, especially plastic bottles that are of the recycling kind. But yeah, like I but it's actually just like wasting my time and making me feel good and letting me continue to purchase, which is so bad.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean there's no real way to avoid plastics efficiently.

Although like, do you what we think if we made like a plastic free town, it would be a really like people would want to move there, Like I should we do that, Like, I think some people want to live in a plastic free zone for their health and well being and for their virtuosity.

You could like create a little plastic neighborhood.

One of the bigger questions is just like how much stuff that we quote unquote recycle actually gets recycled, So that would be the recycling rate is the term they used to study this.

So first give.

Here's a definition of recycling rate, and then what the actual recycling rate is for the United States.

A recycling rate is the percentage of plastic that is entering the waste system that is getting recycled i e. In our case, mostly almost all mechanically recycled, so that means grinding and shredding the plastic down into small bits and cycling it through a system in which it gets basically melted down and turned into a new plastic product. Yeah, it's the percentage of the plastic entering the waste stream.

For plastics, what's the current recycling rate in the US.

For plastics, the recycling rate is close to five to six percent. The highest the plastics recycling rate has ever been was nine percent. But at that point it was a little bit deceptive because it counted a lot of plastics that were being shipped to China to be recycled. But there's a lot of plastic being shipped to China that was never going to get recycled. They have the same sort of economic limitations that we do, and that number was deceptively high for a bit.

So it's more like it's not recycled, but it's more out of our hands.

Right.

It provided a very easy way for us to pretend that things are being recycled in the same way that people talk about wish cycling on like an individual level, putting something in the bin thinking maybe it'll get recycled. We were doing that as a country, you know, engaging in some pretty major waste imperialism.

And we still do.

It's just not to China anymore, because China decided that they don't want to accept our trash anymore. The rate currently in the United States is probably around five or six percent.

And Davis went on to tell me that certain plastic products have a higher recycling rate. So a pet bottle, think of a typical soda bottle, is recycled at around thirty three percent, which is on the higher end of things, whereas other types like polypropylene aka plastic number five might be as low as one percent or even less.

Wait, I'm so confused.

They wanted to make up a number of how much they were recycling, and the highest they could make up.

Was nine percent.

That's like that that's like basically giving yourself, like all the advantages of being like okay, well let's say this and thet'll say.

That, but like nine percent is the highest they could eke out, Like if you're going to tell lie, it would be like ninety nine percent.

Before you played that clip, all I was asking for was ten percent recyclable rate, meaning I recycle is actually going to get recycled. I couldn't even get ten percent.

Well that's not you know, that depends on like the average math of what you consume. The plastics are fewer than and some of the plastics are thirty three percent.

A lot of these water bottles do some service for the country. I can't believe that five, five to six percent every numbers Ye crazy. Yeah. When I heard that, I was pretty shocked. It's just like it's so it's like I can't believe how much time we've spent thinking about this. Yeah, and then you know, Davis mentions the incineration some countries counting thats recycling to well, we got rid of it, we turned it into dicycling, it into toxic.

I actually felt.

Sad for the plastic as he was talking about it, like it was pretty dehumanizing, plasticizing, like they.

Crush it and they do this.

And you asked me earlier about if doing this interview changed my habits. Yes, and the answer is no, But did you think about changing him? Not really, I mean changing your habits would not do anything, I guess it.

I kind of knew that when your answer to reading the report was like, oh, thank god, it's not my problem.

Yeah.

I like that confession.

I like I like reasonable items when I can. But I remember I'm a small man and you know, a big world. That's my knock off from your show.

World. You know what, I think you can use this like reduce reuse. Recycle is like in dating, so you should reduce the number of people you date.

You can reuse your you can go.

Back to your accents, great classes, emergency, and then you should recycle them because like I try it so much. When like it doesn't work out, well, I'll be like, oh, you know, but I have a friend that I think and people don't.

People don't like that.

Well, you yourself will say hey, I know for me, but like I should date my friends.

I say, like, it doesn't seem like this will be the thing, but I have a friend because I like it's.

Kind of nice because it's like it's still a stamp of approval.

Yeah, it's a standard approval, but I don't think people like it. But like, but and it's also like, actually might work out because you friend is kind of I've always thought the idea that you can't date like your friend's access is kind of screwed up because your friend is like like you with a tweak, Like maybe that tweak is what's needed to make your.

Probably someone who was upset the person that you were saying that to you're breaking up with the guy your friend.

I already said it. I waited like two extra like that.

I was like, I had this thought, but I thought I was, like they should be together, So.

Take it away. From the We're gonna away from.

Takeaways branded on men single men?

Okay it in the dating world, Yeah, I mean I bet the efficiency rate would be way higher than five.

I'm telling you reduced for youse recycle your men that And you know what the thing is, because like plastic gets less good when you recycle it, but like men get more good after we did.

That's true because you make them better.

We make everybody gets better after a relationship men, women, whatever, Like.

I don't know if everybody ran through.

That's the idea, learn something.

Hopefully there should be like a cooling pod exit crazy ex girlfriend ratio come to anyway.

Okay, so that's it for part one. Now scroll down and click on part two to hear the rest. In part two, we hear more about what happens with the plastic when we put it in the bin. We'll go on a field trip to a recycling center to see what's going on.

It looked like some shit out of like future.

Yeah, and talk to a representative there to see if recycling is actually a total scam or not.

So there's the statistic that everyone loves to like run at me with their hands flailing in the air only nine percent of plastic gets recycled, So I just want to explain that statistic because it's a bit misunderstood.

This is just the beginnings such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope content. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hatakader. This show is created by Mandy Fidel, Noah Friedman and Devin jose Femine. Credit song by Manny Fidell, mixing by Steve Bone. Thank you so much to our guests Naim Moraza and Davis Allen. Make sure you check out Niama podcast. It's called Smart Girl Dumb Questions. It's very funny, very smart and very good. You can go

And a lot more.

You can find the link in our show notes and on our newsletter, so please let us know what you think. And lastly, don't forget to jump into part two as soon as you can. Thanks nos nos noss.

No such things.