Do horses hate running?

I'm Manny, I'm Noah.

And this is Devin and this is no such thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments in yours by actually doing the research. On today's episode, we settle on an argument we've been having for nearly ten years.

I think it's kind of insane to say that horses don't like to run.

Most people that have a set perception about anything haven't spent very much time observing with any sort of open curiosity.

So good timing, the snakes are not yet.

Hi sound.

No, there's no such thing such thing.

So I grew up in a suburb in New Jersey, and like most suburbs in the Northeast, there's not much to do. So we spend a lot of time going back and forth to the mall at one point actually work at the mall, And to avoid a lot of the traffic on the main roads, we would take the back roads. And on these back roads there were a ton of horse farms, so we'd often be driving back and forth past horses, and I start to notice, every single time we would drive past these horse farms, they were never running.

I don't see, you know.

To that point, especially, I'd not seen a lot of horses in my life, you know, not up close, but we see all these pictures, all this what I'll call propaganda as children of horses running, being majestic. And I was like, how come every time when there are no people around on this farm, the horses are just standing still, mostly eating, not really moving around much at all, not even.

A trot, no gallops.

No barely a galls up. They're just standing there, right.

And I'm like, if I were to put a group, you know, and this is when they're together, you know, the families together is rare. I would see one horse alone. Usually there's two or three of them, and what do you call it?

A pen? I don't know what you call those things?

Like, yeah, I don't know.

Fenced in air.

This is how much I know about horse, right, And I was like, if I have that same area and I put three dogs at some point from all these trips, I would see those dogs running. And to this day, I have never seen horses run in person without humans telling them to do it.

Or forcing them to do it, So do it, okay?

So then I started to think do horse is even like running? Like I don't think horses like to run because if they like to run, and we'd be running when humans weren't around.

I guess I never really said this.

Out loud until we started working together, because there's always been something that's percolating in my mind. Yeah, and you know, if we're getting to our dumb arguments and have our dumb conversations. And I brought it up to both of you one day and I was like, actually, I don't think horses like to run.

So now all of our listeners are in the exact same position that no, right after you, but.

Think God silent, But think about it. Think about it. When have you seen horses run right in person? We're gonna get later. We will get to the videos, the documentaries, the movies. Yeah, so called, I got lots to say about that. But just when in your life have you just seen a horse just going for it, like sprinting, just like I'm running.

Oh, I like this, I can't say I have.

I've also, you know, like you, I haven't really been around the horses.

Yeah.

I guess it's tough for me to recall because I haven't seen any horses really.

So neither one of you have seen horses on a farm running on their own no, no, okay, I think we can maybe end the podcast. Yeah, so I guess maybe I should just say what, like to restate my opinion is, I don't think horses like to run. I think horses are good at running. I think they're majestic creatures. They're very strong, they're very powerful. They look beautiful running. But I don't think like in terms of like if horses got to decide whether or not they would like to run.

I don't think most horses they would never run running.

They would never run.

But this is just based on what I've seen, and you know, you know, everyone that I've talked to, I haven't talked to anyone who's said they've seen horses run for fun and said, I don't know very many horse people.

I don't spend a lot of time with a lot of horse people. But as a casual observer.

Look, that's why I bring up the dog example, right, because even if something man, he doesn't really fuck with dogs.

Yeah, man, he han't seen a dog run.

I've seen them run all the time. The dog example is pretty powerful. I don't remember this one.

Yeah, And it's that usually dogs running no human interaction.

You go to a dog park, all the humans. None of the humans are moving. The dogs are going.

Off, yeah, I mean the dogs they have you know, really fast bursts of energy. I wonder if horses on their own might do that, you know, And we're just kind of about it.

Like I have not seen it, not once, but like so I guess I think, yeah, where do we all stand on this?

I think it's kind of insane to say that horses don't like to run.

I think, Okay, so my initial initial my initial prompt was horses hate running, which is I that's a little strong. I am a little wrong, but sometimes you gotta ge people's attention.

You know. Yeah.

I think my initial kind of reaction to this is I would imagine that, like humans, some horses might like running, some might not.

I don't like running.

I'll do it for exercise, but there are some people who do enjoy running, so I will. I think my initial reaction would just to be that it's probably similar to and even so that's still a very small portion of what you do if you're a runner.

Yeah, that's true.

So it's like I mean thinking, like, you know, you you watch like a nature documentary, and we'll talk about documentaries more.

Especially but I'm kind of saying that.

But my point is that you only see kind of the extreme bits in those where you're not seeing most most of life. And this goes for humans as well as animals. Is pretty much doing nothing and then there's to him moments of extreme activity happening.

You know.

What I mean is like you watch physically documentary and it's like, okay, you see the the predator attacking.

Yeah, most of the time, these animals are just sitting around drinking water. Yeah.

So I kind of view that similarly to the the running where it's like, yeah, we'll run for five minutes, you know, kind of get our little moves on, and then yeah, we're just gonna chill out eat. Like why would we especially on a farm in the back roads. Yeah, there's not much going on, so yeah, we're just gonna chill.

Yeah.

I think we front it around early in the morning, you know, before the cars are coming back.

I think what's interesting about this question is that it is true that growing up, we are kind of led to believe that, like horses are running all the time.

All the time, ride like the wind, the bull's eye, horses like.

You run, the horses like you run the horses like to run.

Have you ever seen a video image of a horse not running?

Yeah?

Like, right now, I'm gonna type horse into Yeah, it's the default those into Google, and the immediately the first horse.

Is a horse is spounting, right.

And it's kind of interesting because it's with other animals.

But I'd say outside of like.

A cheetah, yeah, I was gonna see cheatah.

You know cheetah because we love to talk about how fast they are, so yeah, but those images we're gonna see any other animals, just.

Like we love to talk about it.

Love do we not?

Do we at When I was in middle school, I was talking a lot about how fast cheetahs were.

Insane, But we are fed this. Horses run, run, run, run, And I think part of it, part of it, I think is innocent, and that horses are very good at running.

So you asked this question earlier. Have you ever seen a horse running and in person? We haven't.

But there's you know, countless footage.

Of this footage. So yeah, let's talk about the footage.

So what do you think is happening about the horses that are running in the footage?

Okay, what type of footage be talking about here? Because there's just.

Being a field gallopy.

Usually where let's think about this, right, beautiful, majestic, the sun sun setting. What is usually the angle we see of these horses is it? Is it down below a bird's eye view point of view?

Wow?

Okay, so what we're we got a bird's eye view of the horses a right, So usually we get bird's eye views of things, especially horses out in the wild wearing something I like to call a helicopter, Right, you like to call them that?

Okay, I'm following them.

Let me excuse this. Helicopters quiet?

No?

Are those quiet machines? Can a helicopter just pull up here real quick? And no one noticed that a helicopter's outside?

No, they're really loud.

So you're saying the horses are running because they're.

Horses are easily spooked. That's like the everyone knows that.

Probably the second fact we know, Yeah, horses are.

You ever see the horses out there? Okay?

I have been to a horse show before. Once again, none of the horses doing anything. But besides when that people are making them do they're there? But you know to some horses they have the blinders on because they can't see something to the side, or they're lose their damn mind.

M okay.

So, and you got to think about horses in a wild survival. If something is coming, if a threat, a predator is coming. M hm, you, that's when you gotta run.

Go right.

Doesn't mean that every time they're running, it's only because of.

What you're asking me.

The question was about nature documentaries, right, So what I'm saying is that in these documentaries, most of what you're seeing is from a birdshot point of view, a helicopter very noisy, and the horses are running because they're running away from the damn helicopter.

What if you're at some other perch, like on a mountain top.

Oh okay, look, I'll also can see that horses run to get from one place to another.

Yeah, they must.

It's it's like, hey, we got to go over there and get some water. Run, let's run. That don't mean they enjoy doing it.

You know.

Why wouldn't they walk to the water.

Because it takes longer.

And let's just put this out there in terms of I don't know if either one of you have actually consumed anything in regards to nature documentaries, but they're all full of ship.

Yeah that I do.

That's kind of my point before all of nature documentaries, not even just in regards to horses, regards to all animals. They fake a lot of stuff in nature documentaries, the sound.

And all laid up.

Yeah, the I was listening to a story the other day, a podcast story. I didn't read it in the book, but thank you. What are what are those things called lemons?

Lemons?

Lemmons? Yeah you know that that.

Yeah, they don't actually do that, that's made up.

So what what?

So like there's this famous documentary of like a bunch of lemmings, like one. The idea is that one runs and jumps off a cliff and they're all so stupid. They're just like, oh, you did it. I'm gonna do it so that that's become like a saying.

Now, one of these is a nasty little rodent called the lemmings. There's an actual living legend or it said of this tiny animal that it commits mass suicide by rushing into the sea and droves.

Most people think it was popularised by this Disney documentary from the fifties, and this Canadian journalist like looked into it and he found that they legally like fake the whole thing. These lemmings were like brought in from a part of Canada where like they're not even native to you. And the filmmakers were like literally pushing them off the cliff.

They reached the final precipice.

This is the last chance to turn back, and over they go, casting themselves bodily out into space.

But it's all made up, Okay, physically pushing them off the cliff or like scaring them to jump.

I don't know, you know, for them off the cliff insane. You know this didn't come from nowhere.

Uh.

Lemmons do dissipate from an area, right, Like they go to an area, they eat up all the food and then they're like, all right, we got to get out of here.

Leave.

So the thinking is that like people saw this happening, and sometimes they do all like get all you know, lined up on the cliff when they're doing this, But they're not like meaning suicid.

They're not trying to fall off the Yeah, they're just trying to move on.

They're trying to just leave the area. It's time to die. I'm gonna see if I can find.

Yeah, knowing how set up in kind of facos documentaries are, it wouldn't surprise me if in this footage of horses running in the wild that they did something to me want them to run first before they I don't know if it's a helicopter scaring them, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did something. I also think something we're kind of ascribing human conceptions of liking and I don't know how to really talk about animals and the pleasure they perceive, Like do any animals do anything purely.

Because they like it?

Like even even we talked about the dogs running outside, I think I think they play, But I mean, is it or is it just like their bodies saying like you need to exercise and you're you have all this energy to use.

But I think he enjoys the act of running.

The only thing I would concede is to Manny's point, I think horses are more similar to humans than be getting credit for. I think they have different personalities. Some of those motherfuckers might like to run. And I think, you know, did we talk about the horses. We haven't even brought up the racetrack stuff because I know that's we all can agree that's bad.

Well, we know they're good at running. They're good at and they're being controlled and.

Their bread to run anything like they're being Their whole life is being reinforced to run. So I think that is a different type of horse than you can't a horse in a while because it's.

Like, yeah, literally your existence it's dependent on running. Like race horses. Yeah, I don't think you really have a choice on whether or not you like it. You just do it.

I think horses in the wild are There's probably some lazy horses. There's probably some horses who love to run and want to run. And I think if we had to like give horses a survey, I think more horses would not like running versus horses that enjoy running.

That's interesting, So why why do you say that?

Because I've never seen a horse run?

All right, So how would we try to get an answer for this?

Then that's the quest.

I think there's a lot of I think there's a lot of people who are invested in this, the truth not getting out.

It goes back to the documentaries.

Yeah, I guess a good question is why do you think, uh, it's it's been important for humankind to to beat into us.

That horses enjoy running.

To my earlier point, yeah, everything we do with horses involves them moving.

This is the first.

Domino if the true if the truth comes out that these horses are not really down for that and you are forcing them to do that. I think people have to feel very differently about the way that we interact with horses day to day.

So I think it's a lot easier to just say, hey, they're good at this. They like it.

They like when my daughter Susie is riding it every Tuesday for two hours and jumping over for stuff because that's what they that's what they would do in a while.

They just like doing that. So like, we're giving her the opportunity to do that. And I'm like, I don't think horses.

I think if you let that horse be left alone, then have a little Susie riding it, it would.

Not be running and jumping it.

It will be standing there eating some food, run when it needs to otherwise, leave me alone, Susie.

I don't want to just be out here running.

So we tell ourselves horses enjoy running to rationalize what we do to them.

Yes, we're saying absolutely, wow, yeah, absolutely.

How can we go about trying to get to the bottom of this.

We gotta find some people who are not in the horse industrial complex. After the break, we talked to someone who left the horse industrial complex and take a journey that made us reevaluate our entire relationship to animals. Uh hullo, all right, so we got a horse walking out to us.

All right, Fellas, we're back in this studio.

So we've had this question for a while, and I think sort of a tough thing with this question is finding the right person.

To talk to because, as we've discussed.

In Part one, in the eight hundred previous conversations we've had about this topic, there's a lot of biases, involves a lot very touchy issue.

On this issue. I don't you know, I don't really trust anybody on it.

But I think I can't even trust your own eyes.

Can't trust well, I can't trust my own eyes, which is why we're here. Sure, but I think I found the perfect person for this, okay, because she's someone who has experience on both sides of defense.

Let's say my.

Name is Ren Hurst. I've got a twenty year background as a professional horsewoman, relatively successful as both a horse trainer and a farrier.

I had to look up what the hell that is? E R F A R R I E R This shows how horse. This is someone who like trims horse, who's okay, like professionally, so you know, she was a trainer, She rode horse. She spent twenty years of horse.

Let's just for this, and what does she do now?

She left the She actually left the industry entirely. Wow, okay, why did she leave? What we're going to get to. So she grew up in Texas, represent manny was born in Dallas.

I didn't actually grow up there.

That doesn't count, but she joked that where she grew up there were actually more horses than people in her hometown.

I grew up in Rodeo Country. Usa, going to rodeos as a kid being around horses. Like most girls, I looked at horses as a symbol of freedom and power and beauty, and was, you know, obviously drawn to that for all the reasons that most people are.

So didn Ren went on to have a pretty successful career as a professional horsewoman. She said her transformation to where she is now then happened overnight, but there was like one really big catalyst that put her on the path that she's on today.

I ended up in this very esoteric school of horsemanship out of Russia called nipsar Off Autocle.

Thanks to the school's method, such relations between horse and men now turn out to be possible without the use of any special painful device in its mouth, without punishment, without any means of control.

And I had no intention of coming to the conclusions that I did, But I thought, here's a man, the guy that's leading the school at the time, that can do things that I've never seen done before. And I was really advanced in my own horsemanship skills, so that was saying something.

And Ren was shocked because she said, unlike what she was doing there today, what this guy was doing didn't involve any actual training whatsoever.

And for one, you have to understand there's all sorts of different ways to modify an animal's behavior or a human's behavior from the perspective of having a unequal power dynamic, where somebody has control of the situation and can manipulate coerce force. So I'm speaking to absolutely, in any forms of training, it doesn't matter how positive you perceive the

And then Reren actually took those tools and tried to put them into practice.

And I started working with this very untamed stallion that

So the school completely shattered Ren's worldview and her philosophy of like how humans should be interacting with animals.

Everything we think we know about horses is viewed through the lens of our own domestication, rather through the lens of actually understanding what it means to be horse much less animal.

So run does they'll have horses now, But she's not like out there riding them or like forcing them to run around.

I have undomesticated my herd, which basically means I have returned them to their own emotional sovereignty, which means that I have allowed them to be guided by their own intrinsic forces rather than my perceived ideas of what is good and not good for them. And that has rewritten my truth around what horses need, who horses are, and what is actually good for them. And when you spend a lot of time with wild or undomesticated animals, you get to have an entirely different experience of what it

The red pill.

Oh wow, we feel good versus the feel.

Red is operating on a different level. Y, she's on a different plane.

Let me let me get this straight.

So basically, Ren is making an argument as to why we shouldn't domesticate horses. And basically if the specific argument is that domestication is a form of like trauma and so like if you domesticate an animal, their development is constantly being interrupted, Yes, because we're interfering in their lives that they were not built well, they weren't built for us to do that.

And I think her takeaway is like we should just be focused on ourselves and not like trying to domesticate others, and that's including animals. But before we go too deep down nat rabbit hole, I wanted to ask her, you know, how the horses are behaving now that she's changed the way that she's interacting with them.

So I have a heard of twenty that I still care for. And this most significant difference is the herd is just very very peaceful. More, I mean, just all the time, like, they listen. They're very cooperative. They don't act like horses that have anything to worry about. Everything is easy to do. If I need to trim somebody's hoofs, if I need to do vet care, if I need to manage them, if I need to move them from

Now that that's how she behaves towards horses, like, that's her new kind of line of thinking. Did you ask her? Like if horses are running on their own more willingly or doing it less often because of that new dynamic. So basically, without the human interaction, what are they doing?

These guys run when they play, They definitely have bouts of that. We're all wake up and see the whole herd running around and rearing up and bucking, and they're just you know, feeling good in themselves, and it's intrinsically motivated, and you can tell they're being joyful because they're playing. There's also times where they get scared of something and then they run because it's instinctual. They never run because anybody's telling them to, because there's nobody to do that.

That is insightful to me because it's it's basically the answers horses do, like running when they want to run, which is I know that's not super novel, but like it does help me.

We're talking about it.

It's helpful because when most of the time horses are running, they don't want to. It's like a race or when we're seeing them or work or labor. Yeah, even our question in her art, in her view, is probably a form of domesticating the well yeah, well yeah, because it's the idea, that's the idea of the world that where horses.

Yeah, it's like the whole point of this question was to be like, everyone thinks horses love to run, I don't think they do. And it's like, so, then now we've gone to the other extreme of saying like, no, horses don't like running at all at any time, rather than like, I don't know.

It's kind of complex.

Sometimes individual creatures. Yeah, and there's different moods and different things.

And even all the horses that like to run may not want to run on one day versus another day.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it's the most logical explanation. Yeah, it seems like it makes the most sense.

Yeah, it seems like another kind of framing we had was if horses were left to their own devices, would they be running more or less? It sounds like the answer is less.

Yeah, I think that's true.

And even talking to people who I would say, like really disagree or run, they had a similar sentiment that like, no, horses aren't just going to be out there sprinting just because like they aren't like cross country runners.

That's not the case.

Yeah, I agree with that.

It sounds like even the horses that made like running probably aren't doing it for you know, vast lengths of time or across great distances, even if humans had no impact on their lives, which.

Is contrary to kind of what we grew up believing.

I really think that the more healed we become in our own animal body, the less domestication is even interesting. And there's a reason that wild animals out there aren't domesticating each other because they don't need to and there's no value in that. So when you talk to these other people and ask them that question, it's like, well, what happens when you remove all of your influence from

My love you, But I brought the gloves.

Yeah, ikay, great.

And to Rend's point, it felt weird for three guys to do a whole podcast about horses without us actually spending any time of horses. So we went back to those New Jersey back roads and visited one of those horse farms where this whole thing started.

Your destination will be on the left.

All right.

We were pulling up on the ranch here and I and we'll see some horses outside, and I will say, not a single one of them are running right now. In fact, not only are they not running their state and then completely still, I can't believe it.

We're okay, so one of them walking.

Okay, we got some let's go inside and see what's up or outside or go outside.

That's right.

We took a tour of Bergen County Horse Rescue with Aaron, who's the founder.

Give me a little.

So we're doing a podcast about whether or not horses love running.

Okay, and Jen who's the equine manager.

So good timing.

The snakes are out yet, Hi, satnerns.

So now all of it's gonna come over and say hi to us. Hey, and as soon as as soon as Saturn comes over here, Saturn is going to chase her away because.

Saturn's top horse and and all of us on the bottom. So now watch Saturn's years.

Ago to do.

She's gonna chase her away.

Out and Saturn's gonna come and say hi.

So yeah, they really, they have all different personalities. People will ask me that horses know their names, and they do, but I believe that they all know their names. But ninety percent of them are just going to ignore you anyway.

Some more cat cat Yeah exactly.

It's like, okay, all right, Murphy though, you call Murphy and he comes right on, and I swear he loves it. And we had him for probably two weeks and he already learned his name.

Wow, which is pretty wild. This is Murphy. Oh oh Murphy.

This is drop kick Murphy.

Okay, so Ione running in the corner. Now it's more of a trot. Okay, all right, all right, okay, I won't.

Call that a rum.

Definitely moving a little bit. But this is essentially like the equivalent of me, like trying to beat the crosswalk time yet the light, little dog and then I'm done after ten seconds.

Yeah, it's the weather.

This is more of a lazy day for them. The sun is strong, so you probably in a little while a lot of them will be laying laying down and sleeping.

Now you said, you know, you got to exercise them, so left to their own devices, I guess they're not.

There's the media that you see about horses is always about how much they are running all the time, and like, right, there's movies.

Are you know seriously? Well, yeah, I watch even some of the stuff, and you know, they're on these rides throughout the United States, and I'm like, like, the horses need to rest.

What hurt they?

Meanwhile, it's like a movie. I'm like, they better water those horses soon. Probably one of the most animals that there's a lot of misconceptions about Yeah, people don't know enough about them and the stuff that's out there for the general public. Israeli miss misinformed.

No such thing as produced by Manny Fidel, Norh Friedman and Me Devin Joseph. Theme song by Manny This is I've always been the first to say I love you by certain self. Our guests this week were Aaron and Jenny from the Bergen County Horse Rescue and Ren Hurts, who has a book out titled The Wisdom of Wildness.

Time on no such thing right now.

I've got to give it. I think a one point five.

Damn you said a lot of it is pretty hideous to me. That's crazy.