Hey, what's up. It's Devin today, or actually rerunning one of my favorite episodes, maybe the episode that birth no such thing. This is an og It was in your feeds a year ago, so most of you probably did not hear it. So here it is, do Horses Hate Running? Remastered? I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is Devin and this is no such thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments in yours by actually doing the research. On today's episode, we set on an argument we've been having for nearly ten years.
I think it's kind of insane to say that horses don't like to run.
Most people that have a set perception about anything haven't spent very much time observing with any sort of open curiosity.
H So good timing.
The snakes aren't out yet, Hi, se.
No, there's no no such thing, no such thing, no such thing, no such thing, no such thing.
So I grew up in a suburb in New Jersey, and like most suburbs in the Northeast, there's not much to do. So we spent a lot of time going back and forth to the mall. At one point, I actually work at the mall, and to avoid a lot of the traffic on the main roads, we would take the back roads. And on these back roads there were a ton of horse farms, so we'd often be driving back and forth past horses, and I start to notice every single time we would drive past these horse farms,
they were never running. I don't see, you know, up to that point, especially, I've not seen a lot of horses in my life, you know, not up close. But we see all these pictures, all this what I'll call propaganda as children of horses running, being majestic. And I was like, how come every time when there are no people around on this farm, the horses are just standing still, mostly eating, not really moving around much at all, not even a trot, no gallops, no barely a gallop. They're
just standing there, right. And I'm like, if I were to put a group, you know, and this is when they're together, you know, the families together is rare. I would see one horse alone and usually there's two or three of them, and what do you call it? A pin? I don't know what you call those things, Like, yeah, I don't know the fence. Then this is how much I know about horse, right, And I was like, if I had that same area, and I put three dogs.
At some point from all these trips, I would see those dogs running, And to this day, I have never seen horses run in person without humans telling them to do it or forcing them to do it. So do it, okay. So then I started to think, do horses even like running? Like, I don't think horses like to run, because if they like to run, they would be running when humans weren't around. I guess I never really said this out loud until we started working together, because it's always been something that's
percolating in my mind. Yea, And you know, if we'd get into our dumb arguments and have our dumb conversations. And I brought it up to both of you one day and I was like, actually, I don't think horses like to run.
So now all of our listeners are in the exact same position that no, right after you. But think about it, silent, but think about it.
Think about it. When have you seen horses run right in person? We're gonna get later. We will get to the videos, the documentaries, the movies. Yeah, so called, I got lots to say about that, But just when in your life have you just seen a horse just going for it, like sprinting, just like I'm running. Oh, I like this.
I can't say I have. I've also, you know, like you, I haven't really been around the horses.
Yeah.
I guess it's tough for me to recall because I haven't seen any horses really.
So neither one of you have seen horses on a farm running on their own. No, no, okay, I think we could maybe end the podcast. Yeah, so I guess maybe I should just say what, like to restate my opinion is, I don't think horses like to run. I think horses are good at running. I think they're majestic creatures. They're very strong, they're very powerful. They look beautiful running.
But I don't think like in terms of like if horses got to decide whether or not they would like to run, I don't think most horses they would run like running. This is just based on what I've seen, and you know, you know, everyone that I've talked to, I haven't talked to anyone who's said they've seen horses run for fun. That being said, I don't know very many horse people. I don't spend a lot of time
with a lot of horse people, but as a casual observer. Look, that's why I bring up the dog example, right, because even if something manny doesn't really fuck with dogs, Yeah, man, he has seen a dog run.
I've seen them run all the time. Example is pretty powerful.
Right, And it's like usually dogs running, no human interaction. You go to a dog park, all the humans, none of the humans are moving, The dogs are going off.
Yeah, I mean the dogs they have, you know, really fast bursts of energy. I wonder if horses on their own might do.
That, you know, And we're just kinda like I have not seen it, not once, but like, so I guess I think, yeah, where do we all stand on this?
I think it's kind of insane to say that horses don't like to run. I think, okay, initial prompt was horses hate running, which is.
That's a little strong. I am a little strong, but sometimes you gotta get people's attention, you know.
Yeah. I think my initial, uh kind of reaction to this is I would imagine that, like humans, some horses might like running, some might not.
I don't like running.
I'll do it for exercise, but there are some people who do enjoy running, so I will. I think my initial reaction would just to be that it's probably similar to and even so that's still a very small portion of what you do if you're a runner.
Yeah, that's true.
So it's like.
Thinking, like, you know, you you watch like a nature documentary, and we'll talk about documentaries.
More especially numaries, but I'm kind of saying that.
But my point is that you only see kind of the extreme bits in those where you're not seeing most Most of life and this goes for humans as well as animals is pretty much doing nothing and then there's moments of extreme activity happening. What I mean is like you watch physical documentary and it's like, okay, you see the the predator attacking.
Most of the time, these animals are just sitting around drinking water.
Yeah, So I kind of view that similarly to the the running where it's like, yeah, we'll run for five minutes, you know, kind of get our little moves on, and then yeah, we're just gonna chill out eat, Like why would we especially on a farm in the back roads. Yeah, there's not much going on, so yeah, we're just gonna chill.
Yeah.
I think what's interesting it around early in the morning, you know, before the cars are coming back. I think, what's interesting about this question is that it is true that growing up, we are kind of led to believe that, like, horses are running all the time, all the time.
I ride like the wind, the bull's eye.
Run, the horses run, the horses to ride.
Horses run.
Have you ever seen a video image of a horse not running? Yeah?
Like, right now, I'm gonna type horse into Yeah, it's the default, those into Google, And what are the images? Immediately? The first horse is a horse bounting.
Right, And and it's kind of interesting because it's with other animals. But I said, I'd say outside of like a cheetah.
Yeah, I was gonna see cheatah, you know cheetah because.
We love to talk about how fast they are. So yeah, but those images bring going to see other animals, just like.
You love to talk about love.
Do we not?
Do we not talk about When I was in middle school, I was talking a lot about how fast cheetahs were.
Insane, But we are fed this horses run, run, run, run, And I think part of it, part of it, I think is innocent, and that horses are very good at running. There they're you know, someone say, built to run. But I think part of it too, is that from humans very first interactions with horses, we like to make them do ship, whether that's pulling things, racing, racing, and in order for us to feel better about making them do that stuff, even just transit like yep, from one place
to the next. Right, that's a lot harder to do if in you her mind you're thinking maybe this animal actually doesn't like doing this.
So you asked this question earlier, have you ever seen a horse running? And in person? We haven't, but there's you know, countless footage.
Of this footage. So yeah, let's talk about the footage.
So what do you think is happening about the horses that are running in the footage?
Okay? What type of footage be talking about here?
Because they're just being a field galloping.
Usually where's let's think about this, right, beautiful majestic, the sun sun setting. What is usually an angle we see of these horses is it? Is it down below bird's eye point of view?
Wow?
Okay, so what if we're we got a bird's eye view of the horses, right, So usually when we get bird's eye views of things, especially horses out in the wild, wearing something I like to call helicopter, right.
Like you like to call them that.
Okay, let me ex this. Are helicopters quiet? Are those quiet machines? Can a helicopter just pull up here real quick and no one noticed that a helicopter's outside? No, they're really loud.
So you're saying the horses are running because they're.
Horses are easily spooked. That's like the everyone knows that.
The second fact, yeah, the horses are You ever see the horses out there?
Okay, I have been to a horse show before. Once again, none of the horses doing anything, but besides when the people are making them do. But you know there's some horses they have the blinders on because they can't see something to the side or they're lose their them mine. Okay, So, and you gotta think about horses in a wild survival. If something is coming, if a threat, a predator is coming you, that's when you gotta run.
Go that.
Every time they're running, it's only because.
Of what you're asking me. The question was about nature documentaries, right, So what I'm saying is that in these documentaries, most of what you're seeing is from a bird's eye point of view. A helicopter very noisy, and the horses are running because they're running away from the damn helicopter.
But if you're at some other perch, like on a mountain top.
Oh okay, look, I'll also can side that horses run to get from one place to another.
Yeah they must.
Yeah, it's it's like, hey, we got to go over there and get some water, let's run. That don't mean they enjoy doing it.
You know, why wouldn't they walk to the water.
Because it takes longer. And let's just put this out there in terms of I don't know of either one of you have actually consumed anything in regards to nature documentaries, but they're all full of shit. Yeah that I do all. That's kind of my point before all of nature documentary. It's not even just in regards to horses, regards to all animals. They fake a lot of stuff in nature documentaries. The sound is all made up. Yeah, the I was listening to a story the other day, a podcast story.
I didn't read it in the book, but uh, thank you.
What are you?
What are those things called lemons? Lemon lemmings? Yeah you know that that. Yeah, they don't actually do that, that's made up. So what so like there's this famous documentary of like a bunch of lemmings, like one the ideas that one runs and jumps off a cliff, and they're all so stupid. They're just like, oh, you did it, I'm gonna do it. Hm, So that that's become like a saying.
Now, one of these is a nasty little rodent called the lemmings. There's an actual living legend or it said of this tiny animal that it commits mass suicide by rushing into the sea and droll.
Most people think it was popularised by this Disney documentary from the fifties, and this Canadian journalist like looked into it and he found that they ligally like fake the whole thing. The these lemmings were like brought in from a part of Canada where like they're not even native to and the filmmakers were like literally pushing them off the cliff.
They reached the final precipice, this is the last chance to turn back overre they go casting themselves bodily out into space.
But it's all made up, Okay, physically pushing them off the cliff or like scaring them to jump.
I don't know, you know, they're forcing them off the cliff, forcing them off the cliff insane. You know, this didn't come from nowhere. Lemmings do dissipate from an area, right, Like they go to an area, they eat up all the food and then they're like, all right, we got to get out of here.
Leave.
So the thinking is that like people saw this happening, and sometimes they do all like get all you know, lined up on the cliff when they're doing this, But they're not like meaning suicide.
They're not trying to fall off the Yeah.
Yeah, they're just trying to move on something. They're trying to just leave the area. They're not like it's time to die. Well, I'm gonna say if I can find.
It, we'll put that in the show notes.
Yeah.
Knowing how set up in kind of fake those documentaries are, it wouldn't surprise me if in this footage of horses running in the wild that they did something to make the first before they take I don't know if it's a helicopter scaring them, but it wouldn't surprise me if
they did something. I also think something we're kind of ascribing human conceptions of liking and I don't know how to really talk about animals and the pleasure they perceive like, yeah, do any animals do anything purely because they like it? Even even we talked about the dogs running.
Outside, I think I think I think he loves running.
But I mean, is it or is it just like their bodies saying like you need to exercise and you're you have all this energy to use?
I think yeah, but I think he enjoys the act of running. The only thing I would con see is to Manny's point, I think horses are more similar to humans than be getting credit for. I think they have different personalities. Some of those motherfuckers might like to run. And I think, you know, did we talk about the horses. We haven't even brought up the racetrack stuff because I know that's we all can agree that's bad. Well, we know they're good at running. They're good at running.
They're being controlled and.
They're bread to run anything like they're being Their whole life is being reinforced to run. So I think that is a different type of horse than a horse in a while, because it's like, yeah, literally, your existence its dependent on running like racehorses. Yeah, I don't think you really have a choice on whether you like it.
You just do it.
I think horses in the wild are There's probably some lazy horses. There's probably some horses who love to run and want to run. And I think if we had to like give horses a survey, I think more horses would not like running versus horses that enjoy running.
That's interesting. So why why do you say that?
Because I've never seen a horse front.
All right, So how would we try to get an answer for this? Then that's a good question.
I don't think there's a lot of I think there's a lot of people who are invested in this the truth not getting out.
It goes back to the documentaries. Yeah, I guess a good question is why do you think, uh, it's it's been important for humankind to to beat into us that horses enjoy running.
To my earlier point, yeah, everything we do with horses involves them moving. This is the first domino if the truth, If the truth comes out that these horses are not really down for that and you are forced them to do that, I think people have to feel very differently about the way that we interact with horses day to day. So I think it's a lot easier to just say, hey, they're good at.
This, They like it.
They like when my daughter Susie is riding it every Tuesday for two hours and jumping over for stuff, because that's what they that's what they would do in a while. They just like doing that. So like we're giving her the opportunity to do that. And I'm like, I don't think horses. I think if you let that horse be left alone, then have a little Susie riding it, it would not be running and jumping it and it will be standing there eating some food. Run when it needs to,
but otherwise leave me alone, Susie. I don't want to just be out here running.
So we tell ourselves horses enjoy running to rationalize what we do to them.
Yes, we're saying absolutely, wow, absolutely.
How can we go about trying to get to the bottom of this?
We got to find some people who are not in the horse industrial complex. After the break, we talked to someone who left the horse industrial complex and take a journey that made us reevaluate our entire relationship to animals.
Uh.
Hello, hi, So we got a horse walking out to us. So we got some interesting responses to last week's episode about does religion make you happier? So we heard from Cody from Connecticut, who actually has a correction to you issue to Manny. Manny said that his confirmation saint was Saint Andrew because he's the saint of lost things. But in reality the saint of lost things is Saint Anthony. So be on the lookout for Manny's notes apology forgetting
that one incorrect. And then we heard from Ben and Omaha, who had a possible alternative to religion.
A lot of people in Europe have mentioned that European soccer has replaced your religion for them, well at least Christian and for them, I got football has become religion for them, and I mean it makes sense. For English soccer fans, they sting for two hours. They congregate for two hours every week together. Some people have season tickets for the generational so they've known the people who are sitting next to them at the seat. So yeah, if you wanted to look at something.
That was non giving thanks to some foreign human that may or may not exist, it seems like football flash soccer is one of those venues.
All right, fellas, we're back in this studio, so we've had this question for a while, and I think sort of a tough thing with this question is finding the right person to talk to, because, as we've discussed in Part one, in the eight hundred previous conversations we've had about this topic, there's a lot of biases, involves.
A lot.
On this issue. I don't you know, I don't really trust anybody on it, but I think I can't even trust your own eyes. Can't trust well, I can't trust my own eyes, which is why we're here. Sure, but I think I found the perfect person for this, okay, because she's someone who has experience on both sides of defense. Let's say, my name is Randhurst.
I've got a twenty year background as a professional horsewoman, relatively successful as both a horse trainer and a farrier.
I had to look up what the hell that is r F A R R I E R. This shows how little wind aout horses as someone who like trims horse who's okay, like professionally so you know she's a trainer, She rode horses, she spent twenty years of horses. Let's just say go for this.
And what does she do now?
She left the she actually left the industry entirely. Wow, okay, why did she leave? Well, we're going to get to. So she grew up in Texas. Manny was born in Dallas.
I didn't actually grow up there, that doesn't count.
But she joked that where she grew up there were actually more horses than people in our hometown.
I grew up in rodeo Country, USA, going to rodeos as a kid, being around horses. Like most girls, I looked at horses as a symbol of freedom and power and beauty, and was, you know, obviously drawn to that for all the reasons that most people are.
So.
Din Ren went on to have a pretty successful career as a professional horsewoman. She said her transformation to where she is now then happened overnight, but there was like one really big catalyst that put her on the path that she's on today.
I ended up in this very esoteric school of horsemanship out of Russia called npsar Off Outicle.
Thanks to the school's method, such relations between horse and man now turn out to be possible without the use of any special painful device in its mouth, without punishment, without any means of control.
And I had no.
Intention of coming to the conclusions that I did, But I thought, here's a man, the guy that's leading the school at the time that can do things that I've never seen done before. And I was really advanced in my own horsemanship skills, so that was saying something.
And RHN was shocked because she said, unlike what she was doing there today, what this guy was doing didn't involve any actual training whatsoever.
And for one, you have to understand there's all sorts of different ways to modify an animal's behavior or a human's behavior from the perspective of having an unequal power dynamic where somebody has control of the situation and can manipulate coerce force. So I'm speaking to absolutely, in any forms of training, it doesn't matter how positive you perceive
the training to be. And I switched that with listening, feeling, intuiting, and leading from an embodied place that made the animal feel very safe to be with me because I was not being dishonest on any level.
And then Wren actually took those tools and tried to put them into practice, and.
I started working with this very untamed stallion that was potentially really dangerous, and after having a long successful career as a trainer, what I was applying with this horse was completely dismantling everything I had ever thought to be true, and it completely shattered my reality, both as a horse trainer, but also just as a human being on this planet looking at what the fuck are we doing dominating nature in this way and separating ourselves from each other and
from the natural order of things.
So the school completely shattered Ren's worldview and her philosophy of like how human should be in here act with animals.
Everything we think we know about horses is viewed through the lens of our own domestication, rather through the lens of actually understanding what it means to be horse much less animal.
So Run does still have horses now, but she's not like out there riding them or like forcing them to run around.
I have undomesticated my herd, which basically means I have returned them to their own emotional sovereignty, which means that I have allowed them to be guided by their own intrinsic forces rather than my perceived ideas of what is good and not good for them. And that has rewritten my truth around what horses need, who horses are, and what is actually good for them. And when you spend a lot of time with wild or undomesticated animals, you get to have an entirely different experience of what it
means to be fully embodied animal. Our entire society is set up to keep you from doing that, because domestication is the intentional interruption of emotional developments so that someone can control your behavior, and that is the essence of capitalism and society as it currently exists. They still are selling you the field goods instead of the feel at alls.
She took the red pillow I feel good versus is operating on a different level. She's on a different planet.
Let me get this straight. So basically, Ren is making an argument as to why we shouldn't domesticate horses, and basically if the specific argument is that domestication is a form of like trauma, so like if you domesticate an animal, their development is constantly being interrupted, Yes, because we're interfering in their lives that they were not built well, they weren't built for us to do that.
And I think her takeaway is like we should just be focused on ourselves and not like trying to domesticate others, and that's including animals. But before we go too deep down that rabbit hole, I wanted to to ask her, you know how the horses are behaving now that she's changed the way that she's interacting with them.
So I have a herd of twenty that I still care for. And this most significant difference is the herd is just very very peaceful more, I mean just all the time, like they listen, They're very cooperative. They don't act like horses that have anything to worry about. Everything is easy to do. If I need to trim somebody's hooves, if I need to do vet care, if I need to manage them, if I need to move them from
place to place. We don't use any training, there's no manipulation, and yet there is a cohesiveness and a harmony and a cooperative state of being here just because they know that they are cared for and safe and don't have to you know, they know they're always going to be heard.
Now that that's how she behaves towards horses, like that's her new kind of line of thinking. Did you ask her like if horses are running on their own more willingly or doing it less often because of that new dynamic. So basically, without the human interaction, what are they doing?
These guys run when they play, They definitely have bouts of that, We're all wake up and see the whole herd running around and rearing up and bucking, and they're just, you know, feeling good in themselves and it's intrinsically motivated and you can tell they're being joyful because they're playing. There's also times where they get scared of something and then they run because it's instinctual. They never run because anybody's telling them to, because there's nobody to do that.
I don't think anyone can say horses love to run about any horse all the time, Like just like I can't say you love whatever you're drinking right now all the time. Like there are moments I love to run because it feels good to do so, but those moments are not consistent, they're not every day and it has nothing to do with who I am. And if anybody perceived that about me, I'd be like, you don't know shit about me, Like why would you even say that?
And that's we typically project. I mean, that's what domestication. It's like a constant projection of trauma from the human world.
That is insightful to me because it's it's basically the answers horses do like running when they want to run, which is I know that's not super novel, but like it does help me. We're about it, Yeah, because when most of the time horses are running, they don't want to it's like a race, or when we're saying yeah,
or work or labor. Yeah, even our question yeah in her art, in her view, is probably a form of domesticating that well yeah, well yeah, yeah, because it's the idea that's perpetuating the world that where horses.
Or do.
Yeah.
It's like the whole point of this question was to be like everyone thinks horses love to run, I don't think they do. And it's like so then now we've gone to the other extreme of saying like, no, horses don't like running at all at any time, rather than like, I don't know. It's kind of complex sometimes individual creatures.
Yeah, yeah, and there's different moods and different things.
And even all the horses that like to run may not want to run on one day versus another day.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's but it's the most logical explanation. Yeah, it seems like it makes the most sense. Yeah, it seems like another kind of framing we had was if horses were left to their own devices, would they be running more or less? It sounds like the answer is less.
Yeah, I think that's true. And even talking to people who I would say, like really disagree or run, they had a similar sentiment that like, no, horses aren't just going to be out there sprinting just because like they aren't like cross country runners. That's not the case. Yeah, I agree with that.
It sounds like even the horses that made like running probably aren't doing it for you know, vast lengths of time or across great distances, even if humans had no impact on their their lives.
Which is contrary to kind of what we grew up believing.
I really think that the more healed we become in our own animal body, the less domestication is even interesting. And there's a reason that wild animals out there aren't domesticating each other because they don't need to and there's no value in that. So when you talk to these other people and ask them that question, it's like, well, what happens when you remove all of your influence from
the horse? Are they still running? The answer is no, they're not, because their horses are so freaking traumatized that that's why they stand around and past yours allay and do nothing. And that's not black and white either, because the better a horse is loved and cared for, the better they feel in their body, and the better you feel in the body, the more you want to move it.
But that doesn't mean they're out there running around for the sake of running around, Because no healthy animal is unaware of the importance of the conservation of energy, especially a prey animal. You're not gonna have horses running around expending energy for no reason when they might need to
run away from a threat when it comes. But I mean, most people that have a set perception about anything haven't spent very much time observing with any sort of open curiosity at all about the thing that they're perceiving.
You might not need them, but I brought the gloves.
Yeah, I've loved you. And to End's point, it felt weird for three guys to do a whole podcast about horses, about us actually spending any time of horses. So we went back to those New Jersey back roads and visited one of those horse farms where this whole thing started.
Yeah, the destination will be on the left.
All right.
We were pulling up on the ranch here and some horses outside, and I will say not a single one of them are running right now. In fact, not only are they not running, there standing completely still.
Okay, so one of them was walking.
Let's go inside and see what's up or outside, don't go outside, that's right.
We took a tour of Bergen County Horse Rescue with Aaron, who's the founder.
Give me a little.
So we're doing a podcast about whether or not horses love running. Okay, and Jen who's the equine manager.
So good timing.
The snakes aren't out yet, Hi, Satners, So now all of it's gonna come over and say hi to us. Hey, and as soon as as soon as Saturn comes over here, Saturn is going to chase her away because Saturn's top horse and all of us on the bottom. So now watch Saturn's years are going to do. She's going to chase her away.
Oh wow, she's out, and Saturn's gonna come and say hi.
So yeah, they really they have all different personalities. People will ask me the horses know their names, and they do, but I believe that they all know their names, but ninety percent of them are just going to ignore you.
Anyway some more cat cat.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
It's like, okay, all right, Murphy though, you call Murphy and he comes right and I swear he loves it. And we had him for probably two weeks and he already learned his name. Wow, which is pretty wild.
This is Murphy, Oh Murphy, This is drop kick Murphy.
Okay, so Ione running in the corner. Now it's more of a trot, okay, all right, all right, okay, I won't call it that.
A ruck.
Definitely moving a little bit, but this is essentially like the equivalent of me, like trying to beat the crosswalk time yet light little dog, and then I'm done after ten seconds.
Yeah, it's the weather. This is more of a lazy day for them. The sun is strong, so you probably in a little while a lot of them will be laying laying down and sleeping.
Now you said, you know, you got to exercise them, so left to their own devices, I guess they're not.
They're hang Media that you see about horses is always about how much they are running all the time, and like, right, there's movies, are.
You know, Oh seriously, well, yeah, I watch even some of the stuff, and you know they're on these rides throughout the United States there and I'm like, like, the horses need to rest heard they meanwhile, it's like a movie. I'm like, they better water those horses soon. Probably one of the most animals that there's a lot of misconceptions about. You know, people just don't know enough about them, and the stuff that's out there for the general public is really miss misinformed.
I was gonna trying to eat your micah.
Yah h.
No such Thing as produced by Manny Fidel, Norh Friedman and Me Devin Joseph. Theme song by Manny This is I've always been the first to say I love you by certain self. Our guests this week were Aaron and Jenny from the Bergen County Horse Rescue and Ren Hurst, who has a book out titled The Wisdom of Wildness.
Thanks to our friends for their notes, Julia Lindsay, Miata Graf, Catherine Isaac, Sarah Floyd, and TRUTHYPJ from Search Engine Visit No Such Thing that show to see photos of us with Murphy at the Bergen County Horse Rescue and some of our wild horses hate running merch that we made back in twenty nineteen, Pa.
Pa, I've always been the first to say you lost me, But I want to know what it feels like for you to want me still
For someone I care about, someone who makes me sick, to work for this