Do audiobooks count as reading?

I'm Manny, I'm Noah. This is and this is no such thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually doing the research. Today's argument began with a tweet the question do audiobooks count is reading?

I don't care what you call it. I honestly don't.

Do you actually comprehend content the same way when you're hearing it versus reading it?

I feel like I forget what I read very quickly.

And lastly, I have a confession to make to a friend.

I'm going to tell you something now, Rich, okay, and this is full transparency here.

What would you say if I told you.

There's no no such thing, no such thing, no such thing.

I'll hop in here because I came across a tweet that I dropped into the d MS, and the tweet was do audiobooks count is reading?

And I just commented no, so many.

What do you think if someone tells me they read something but they actually listened to it. I don't feel like they're defrauding me or anything like that. I haven't listened to many audiobooks, but if I did, I think I would be okay telling someone that I've read them. The end of the year and you're making a list of all the books you've read, you would put Prince Harry's book on. I would put Prince Harre you listen to it exactly if I had listened to it.

Okay, So now you obviously believe that listening to an audiobook counts as reading.

Yeah, if you know I've listened to the Prince Harry You're a Catcher in the Rye.

That's a book I've read. I know the book.

Okay.

So my goal this year was to read twenty four books. I didn't read twenty four. I got to like twenty twenty one. You're telling me if I listened to twenty four audiobooks that this year would be the equivalent of me reading twenty four books.

Yeah, I would totally accept that. If you were like, if you posted that is insane.

You posted your listen, We're like, here's the twenty four books I read. And we're talking about a semantic issue.

No, no, no. The question was do audio books count as reading? Yeah?

Reading, But I guess it means what does reading mean to you?

Reading means to me? What reading? Yeah? Exactly, It's like, what is the definition of reading.

It's a very small view of what reading really is.

I think it's a very you know, reading is one thing, which is reading, all right, But these are books. Huh, there are audio books. Yeah, but it's the same, it's the same content.

We do you think people are obscuring the fact that they listened to me?

Yeah, this is my whole The real reason I have a real issue with this is because I think people just need to be honest about how they're consuming media. And I think the people who listen to audiobooks and want to pretend that they read the books is because they are slightly embarrassed that they listen to the book and they didn't read it, because otherwise, why won't you just say, yeah, I listened to that audiobook. This person was clearly asking because she was putting together some sort

So you want people to make two lists, then yeah, what like if I put together It's like, I'm not that interested in seeing any lists.

So now it's like you're gonna ask me to look at two. I'm not saying medium.

I'm not saying that, right, Like you can you can make one list and say here's the things I read and listen to this year.

So I think a question for Devin here is what is it about the act of reading that you feel is more valuable than listening to an audiobook?

What is the difference between reading and like listening to an audiobook? Is that like I can't read and walk my dog at the same time, Right, I can't.

Read, But would you if you could?

I mean, yeah, if I could, I would.

I mean, but.

It's like we talked about this the other day. People don't read books.

Reading is not an easy thing to do, like making time for reading, especially now having the intention span to read. And I think no, rightfully or wrong for people look at people who read a lot of books, and then if I might, then someone who may read one book a year, right, Like saying I read one hundred books this year is very different than I listened to one hundred audiobooks every morning.

I listen to.

Let's say, two hours of like between like NPR and w NYC and like the daily Right. So if I said, okay, I'm not going to do that every day. I'm just gonna make those audio books. I can get through a lot of audio books any year.

So basically this is like a work ethic thing. I mean, yeah, you're looking at it as a time inge.

I mean I I do listen to the occasional audiobook, Okay, I mostly read books.

Yeah, you know, in.

Your definition physical paperback books. I'm looking with my eyes.

It now feels like such a brave thing to say, Like, I do listen occasionally. I keep a list just so I can look at what I've read this year.

Okay, list.

I can look at that list, and I don't mark off the difference. You know which ones you read, yeah, and you know which ones you listen to.

So Devin is making a point about like transparency and honest. But another question around this is like, whether you're reading or listening, do you feel like the information is being retained in the same way? For example, if Noah listened to Killers of the Flower Moon and Devin read it, do you feel like you're coming away with such a different experience.

So I don't think like because I read a book and Noah listened to a book, that means that I necessarily have like retained the information better. I just think it's like probably processed in a way that's different. But I also like there's there's books that I read that

You'd have forgot everything that happened in that damn book.

And that's why my friends be thinking that I'd just be skimming through the pages because they fuck trying to ask me about a book.

I can tell you what the fuck happened in that book.

And if like there's some stuff that I read just like fun that I'm not paying that close attention to, like that happens and I instantly forget what happened. And there's like some audio stuff that like I'll be listening to that like maybe I'm paying a bit more attention to like this American Life episode where I'll be able to retain more information. So I don't know. I think that's a long way of saying I think it depends.

It can go both ways, like I've read books and then reread them and then just you know, whether it's just the mood you're in when you're doing it or whatever, you might just be able to absorb the information better, whether it's just like you're in a different headspace. And then there's also books that like I've done both at the same time, where like I'll have the physical copy, but then I'll have the audiobook on my fo some

Oh wow. We had a conversation where Rich about it.

For context, Rich as a friend of ours we used to work with.

I just want to reveal on the podcast here that you didn't say I listened.

I also listened to the audiobook.

Me. Well, I'm speaking my truth because that's how I feel. It's it's the same thing.

The conversation was literally about how he couldn't get through reading the book, what.

His habits are like, maybe he reads two books a year. I read a lot of books.

I'd read that exact conversation.

Is my issue with people who want to claim that they read audio books. It's like one man is saying, Wow, it's really hard for me to get through reading this book, and you're like, yeah, it was kind of easy for me.

I didn't like three.

Well, I didn't brag about it listening. He asked me how long it took. I gave him an answer of a.

Time about some very important information, which is you listen to half of it.

Yeah, well I know every fact in there, so I'm not saying, you know, once again, it's not about comprehension.

To me, it is about comprehension.

We keep going back to this where it's like you're talking about people being worried about how they're going to be perceived.

Yes, right, that's kind of what this is actually about.

Yeah, this is about people's perce So it just depends on how you want to present publicly. I guess I don't like in that moment with Rich for example, I wasn't being self conscious. I just wasn't thinking about it. I was beyond being self conscious. I was on a different plane. It was not even a thought in my head to mention it because it's irrelevant to me.

Just to distill the argument, a little bit here. Basically, Devin, you feel like people are self conscious about this because they feel like listening to an audiobook is not as prestigious as reading a book.

You got to see what's important to you. It's like a challenge for me to like find time to read.

To me, there's something I don't know, still sacred about getting outside of the sort of digital world we live in to read words on a page. Well, you didn't ask Noah how he feels about it about do you think reading is more sacred than listening to an audiobook?

I can't say necessarily.

I think that, Like I think if you're actually focusing on the words and focusing on listening to it, you could still have the same experience, are a very similar experience, if not the same one, But as far as comprehending and connecting with it, I think generally you could even even something that is like maybe on a more sentence by sentence level, kind of that more literary sort of thing.

And to play Noah's advocate a little bit, you know, please, like like the passing of information via word of mouth, like that's long before books and writing, Like that's an ancient tradition that's a right. I ever heard of the Odyssey.

DEVI Well, what what do you personally think, though you said, I mean, at the end of the year, if you read ten books versus listening to ten audiobooks, what do you think is more valuable reading?

Okay, reading with us? We can't look, we can.

Look.

I think there's I think the thing here, right, is that we all want to pretend like audiobooks.

Are just Again, it's like what we say is valuable, That's what I would that's what I would prefer, and that's how I would get the most out of these books for me.

Mm hmm.

But I think this is that classic sort of like everyone wants, you know, like we all want to pretend to be like inclusive.

And blah blah blah.

That's what I'm doing when it comes down to it, It's like, well, me, personally, I prefer to read. But like if you want to say, like audio books is reading good for you, you're saying I'm being too woke.

Yeah, I think I think that.

Basically, it's like people absorb these things differently.

Agree, Yeah, just own the way you're absorbing it. Like if you're listening to an audiobook, just be upfront about it.

So Devin's main concern is more about the presentation of it all. He thinks people are embarrassed to admit that they listen to books because it's quote unquote easier than reading. So we're going to do a couple of things. Now, We're going to do a test to see how reading stacks up versus listening as far as retaining information. And I'm going to try to talk to an expert about all of this stuff.

All right, we're back. I'm Noah Manny Devin.

Last time we spoke, we were arguing about whether or not audiobooks count as reading.

So we just really quickly say where we stand.

Devin, Why don't you say where you stand?

Audiobooks do not count as reading. They count as listening to audiobooks.

And to me, they're the same. You get all the same stuff out of them, so it's reading to me.

Then, I remember, what do you use in on this, man?

I remember being kind of agnostic.

I think.

So what we've done since then is I wanted to get some real answers on this. I reached out to an expert on the issue. I wanted to find out how reading comprehension is actually studied and what differences there are between reading and listening.

My name is Virginia Clinton LaSelle. I'm an Associate professor of Educational Foundations and Research at the University of North Dakota, and I specialize in digital reading and flexible reading modalities.

She published a meta analysis a few years ago looking at forty six different reading versus listening studies, oh with over forty six hundred participants, so she's kind of the perfect person to ask about this. She had an interesting motivation for why she started the study to begin with.

I will say my motivation for this study was I was in a book club on campus and somebody very sheepishly sad, I've been listening to the audiobook. Oh I'm sorry, Like, and I've been. I've been doing so much driving it just worked better.

And I remember just.

Thinking, why are you so embarrassed about that?

We're all busy academics.

We're doing something extra, you know, you're meeting and talking about it and contributing.

I've learned something. After that, after that SoundBite, I'm on, if you're in a book reaction, like, I'm like, okay, I don't care what you call it. I honestly don't. You're in a book club.

The whole book.

If she's able to come and actually say things difference. I get like the information relaying, but that feels like a book club feels like kind of a sacred.

Yeah. But I guess the point is like if she hadn't said that, would the other people in the group even know this thing?

Was like, what are you end the book club for it?

Because you all read these pages or because you're reading this book together and learning about the story or whatever. It's like, if you're able to talk about it, then it doesn't.

I viewed as twofold right, Like the book club holds you like accountable for Okay, I'm going to have to finish this thing because I'm gonna have to go and talk to people about it. So it forces you to make time to read the book. To your point, I think in terms of the discussions, sure, I don't care if you've you know, like I can talk to I could talk to someone about a book if I've read it and they've listened to it.

And I'm not gonna be like, I'm sorry speak to people who have read the book.

You're not like the book club goes it doesn't go any differently if you listen or read it, but it just feels like a weird for whatever reason, that struck me as like wow in a book club.

Yeah.

I asked her what these experiments typically look like, and it's pretty simple. The participants will read or listen to a selected tech. Sometimes there will be different parameters, like you have thirty minutes to do it, or it'll kind of shift you through one phrase at a time to keep you at a certain pace, and then you'll answer multiple choice questions or do something like write down everything

So I think we should start with Devin's score.

Yeah, Evan read read the story using a visual modality.

So I got one wrong.

Wow, that's pretty good.

Okay, So what my score was eight? One wrong? So I got a ninety five percent.

That's great. Wow, that's strong a strong start. No, how did you do on your test? Well, I got.

I read the book using a you know, auditory modality.

And I got an eighty nine percent. I got two questions wrong, damn on two only two, So it's kind of the arbiter here. I think it does mean something that Devin got one more question right than Noah. However, I'm I'm thinking like one question to me, I don't know if I can attribute that to like reading being that much better of a method of information, where.

He might just be smarter, Devin might just be built different. We have not thought about that.

This specific test. I don't know if this the results like stats wise, Devin wins. But I just don't know if I can really say which mode is retaining the information better than the other one. So I asked doctor Clinton Lassell to explain what's going on in your brain when you're reading.

There's two processes that are going on in our brain. In what's called the simple view of reading, there's decoding, where you look at the text and you're able to determine what those words are, so you can see the word, the thch the letters, and then you know that means the And then there's the comprehension aspect, where you're taking the meaning from the text and creating an idea of

That kind of lays out the two step process that goes on when you're taking in a text. I asked, you know the big question, which is what's the difference comprehension wise between reading versus listening.

They're honestly not that different. Obviously, the decoding process isn't there. You're not having to look at words and figure out what those letters mean, but instead you're listening and you have to figure out those sounds make words. Now, because we learn how to listen from infancy, but we learned how to read a little bit later in our lives, we forget that that listening process actually takes brain power

So you heard it there. Reading and listening are actually very similar. But listening is so much more natural to us since we've been doing it longer than we've been reading. Obviously, now we kind of overlook the work that we do to turn sounds we hear into words with meaning.

That's fair, which I thought was really interesting. And I suppose that's the other side of the exam that you two did, which is like, yes, Devin got one more question correct, but Noah still got seventeen out of nineteen. Yeah, So it's not like listening to audio. If I came in ten of.

Those right out of yeah, you know, I wouldn't be here sitting talking to you guys. I'd be like, we're scrapping this episode too, shame. One thing she does mention is like, yeah, when we're talking about more complicated sorts of things, they do see more improvement for visual reading. Part of it is like you're more likely to go back and reread things even if you don't think about it.

So like on a page, you probably.

Reread it few sentences, even if you don't feel like, oh, actually I'm going back or even pausing.

Yeah, like that's what I was thinking about when I was doing this test. It's like I was stopping and like okay and saying to myself, Okay, gotta remember that character's name because it probably will come up and it was, and then reading again. Whereas if you listen to an audiobook, yeah, you can pause and rewind, but it's like it's a lot more complicated of a process.

She also said to where we're talking about driving and this sort of thing, there's obviously different levels of distraction. So it's like you can be distracted reading a paper book. If like your kid's running up to you and bugging you all the time or whatever. You know, your phone's next to you and going off in the same way. Where if you're driving and you're going down a new route that you don't know and you have a book on, yeah, you're probably not going to get a lot of it.

Pick up that stuff.

She also mentioned some other reasons that audiobooks could be a an option.

I know, also, there's a lot of functional diversity. So obviously if you're visually impaired, audiobooks are going to be a better option for the most part. But there's a lot of other functionally diverse individuals, you know, things like having battlethritis. Holding a book is painful, listening to a book is not. There's a bill curve of how active and how much somebody moves in general, and you know, people like my daughter don't have ADHD, but they are

She ended up bringing up about schools and reading loss, where you know, I'm asking about all these different things, and she's like, yeah, well, like especially when you're talking with students, like, ultimately you just want them to read. However they're going to actually read it, because that's going to be better than if they just totally skip the

To do, is the learning objective teaching them something specific to reading? Or is it about the content or the story structure, or the plot or the background knowledge. If it's the learning injectives don't have anything to do with the actual modality specific language skills, then if an option is available, giving that option would probably be a good idea.

That's kind of her view as a educator. The more you read, the better you read, and that just goes for everything.

And she says the more you read in terms of like actual reading or your your pretender reading.

Reading, the more you read, the better you're a good doctor there, Yeah, yeah, good doctor. So those are my main takeaways.

So I mean, I guess the big question is does this change your your opinions on this at all?

Manny?

Why don't you go first? As we know at the beginning of this, I was kind of ambivalent. I've never minded when someone, I guess I've never known actually, so someone could have told me that they read a book and they could have lied, probably probably lied, But if they were lying, I don't think I would have minded. Now I do care, but I'm still in the middle because I don't. I don't mind, like I truly don't mind how people will describe how they read things. So

Yeah, I mean, I'll say, even as a you know, the audiobook advocate here, I was a bit surprised at the comprehension levels were essentially the same. I kind of expected that reading on paper would be a lot higher if there was going to be a difference, So I was surprised when when I learned that that there's not that much of a difference. But yeah, I mean, even as someone who would listen for me, it felt like

I think, See, I know it came up very strong because I still feel very strongly that people who listen to audiobooks should just say they listened to the audiobooks.

But for me, it was never about the comprehension part.

Because like I said, there's like some of the stuff that I consume, I feel like the best is audio based stuff, Like that's the stuff that like keeps my attention at times the best. Like it's the mode that like I had default to in terms of like entertainment. Right,

To the audiobook. What are you going to say? Like I didn't comprehend the information in the same way.

Well, I do say that as far as if I came across someone say I'm having an open conversation now and it comes out.

I listened to it. Yeah, I read an audiobook.

I think I now I'd be like, well, actually, first of all, you know, listen to this podcast. But also I'd probably be like, oh, you might be surprised to learn that it's actually, you know, the.

Same same COMPREHENSI as far as comprehension.

But so, you know, maybe for me still there is something about reading, the ritual of doing it right, the fact that you can't do a while doing other things.

Yeah, it's still holds a special place.

But yeah, you know, if someone wants to come at you saying like you're an idiot because you listen to the thing, it's like, no.

Yeah, actually I'm not.

I'm an idiot for other reasons, not because of that.

I think the audiobook Listen of the World, after listening to this episode will feel more empowered to be more transparent. I've got to lie about how they consumed that book. Yes, and I think that's a beautiful thing.

Exactly we changed the world. Before we end the episode, I think we need to do one more thing.

I think I know what you're talking about. I don't think this is necessary.

I think we need to call over it.

All right, let's do it.

Rich.

Do you remember last year we got burrito's? Yeah, and then we I think we went bowling.

We did go bowling, I remember vividly.

Do you remember what we talked about while we were walking from the burrito place to the bowling alley? Yeah?

We were talking about Oppenheimer. The movie had just come out, and I was saying like, yeah, I just got the book, and you were saying, oh, yeah, I already read it. And I was like, wait, really you had time to read all of that and you're like yeah, I just spent some time, like really dug.

Down into it.

And all right, So I'm going to tell you.

I'm going to tell you something now, Rich, Okay, and this is full transparency here.

Yeah.

Yeah, what would you say if I told you that? Listen?

I completed the book, but I listened to about twenty five percent of it as an audiobook.

What's your reaction there?

Okay, So it kind of seems like where you're going with this is that maybe Manny and devonor are trying to say that like your opposer or something. Yeah, but no, I actually I think this is like innovator.

Yes. Well, which, there was a moment of the conversation you guys had last year where you mentioned how hard it was to get through some of the chapters. Oh yeah.

Rich was very impressed by how quickly you had finished it.

He's like, wow, you've read that in three weeks.

So actually, wait, yeah, now I'm being swayed. Yeah, keep going, Devin, keep going.

Noah just said yeah, And I remember to look on his face when he said it. I turned around during this part in the conversation because Rich was like, wow, that's really fast.

You read it that fast, like three and.

I was impressed.

He was like yeah, And I looked at no Space and I could tell I was like, it looked like you were lying. Wow, it looks like something's happening in his eyes.

But I'm like, that would be a weird, Like, no, he's not going to lie about reading a book.

I just want to clarify my position now too. I thought I kind of I am feeling a little bit manipulated. I'm feeling like you were kind of playing into that idea of you are the book guy in.

This in this relationship here listen. You asked the question, and I answered the question. I answered, you know, I'm feeling a little betrayed. Yeah, that's what I expected.

It kind of seems like you were doing it for like nerd quote. I think the real question that you're not getting at is if you're if you are an audiobook person, are you going to be upfront about it?

If you're like, I'll.

Tell you this, yeah, this new book, like yeah, like I read this, but it's like, no, you you did it. You you listen to it. That's fine, but I think people need to be upfront. We need to normalize about audiobooks.

Listen in the future, in a scenario like that rich where someone's prodding me for details on the speed and pace of my reading, I'm gonna go listen, do you have do you have a second? I'm gonna say, sit down, I'm gonna explain to you exactly which pages I read, what I listened to, and how thank you, and I'm just gonna come clean from now on. I'm not gonna, you know, just needs the shoulders say you know, like you know, I'm not that smart.

You know whatever, it's like, We'll just move on.

We need honesty in this country.

By the way, since we recorded, Rich has become an avid audiobook listener.

There's No such Thing Thing.

No Such Thing as produced by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman and Devin Joseph.

Theme song is by Manny.

Our guests this week where doctor Clinton Lassell and Rich Filoni. Thanks to our friends for their notes, Julia Lindsay Media de Graf, Katherine Isaac, Sarah Floyd, and SUTHIANPJ from Search Engine. Please visit No Such Thing Dot show to check out some audiobook recommendations from Rich. And Lastly, this was our first episode, so please make sure to follow and subscribe wherever you're listening, drop a five star review, and the next episode is live.

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