Can you change the mind of a conspiracy theorist?

I'm Anny, and this is no such thing the show where we answer our dumb questions and yours by actually doing the research. On today's episode, we're trying to figure out what exactly it would take to change the mind of a conspiracy theorist. There's no no such thing, such thing touch thank Okay, So I'll start this episode off with a story that happened to me recently. I was home in the Great State of Ohio a few months ago.

Uh.

And so we you know, group of friends, and I went to a bar, a couple of drinks in we're talking about politics, sure.

And lovely conversation to have you have a couple of drinks.

Especially in Ohio. Like the people I'm talking about our liberals, but like they definitely think about politics differently than we do.

Yes, you know, living in our coastal elite environment.

Anyway, I can't remember how the conversation got here, but I made a joke about Pizzagate. Do you guys remember what Pizzagate of course, basically, you guys were on round zero.

Yeah, Me and Noah went to college in DC, and.

I used to work right next door to Commet Ping Pong, so I knew a lot of people who worked there at the time.

Yeah, and then but.

Yeah, it was crazy because then we were working at BI when Pizza Gate happened, right, and then here I am editing a video about it, and there's people I knew and used to work with and see every day talking about this horrible thing that happened.

Yeah. Quick summary. During the twenty sixteen election, WikiLeaks published all these emails from the Hillary Clinton campaign. Conspiracy theorists went through the emails and claimed that they deciphered some kind of coded references to child abuse. They decided that one of the locations of this abuse was in the basement of Comet Ping Pong, which was a pizza spot

Is this so grow up, you grew up with this guy kind of.

I mean it's one of those like in the friend group situations around, Like you know, back then in high school you're hanging out with people because you're in the same homeroom.

Yeah, because you don't have a deep connection.

But did you get the sense from him that this was his vibe in like high school?

We certainly in high school would talk about like.

Loose Change or yeah sure, yeah, yeah.

So if you don't know listeners, Loose Change was like a documentary that came out back then about how and why and the evidence that nine to eleven was an inside job. And I think like believing that nine to eleven was an inside job was like a like edgy thing for me, as like a fourteen year old to think. Obviously, once I grew a few more brain cells, I realized,

Oh yeah, I remember watching it on Google Video. Yes, it was for YouTube, so is I just remember the interface. But that's how LEAs changed, I think was maybe predominantly shared. Yeah, I came out, which I think was like two thousand and five six. But yeah, I remember watching him just being like, wow, this is it's blowing my mind right now.

Yeah, no one doing anything about that.

Yeah, but it made me think about how easy it is to believe this stuff because they'll they'll say something that's like, well, you know, the mathematical burning point of a blah blah blah, and then you see they put a week screen we were fourteen. Yeah, yeah, I wonder if that was just like kind of the starting point.

Yeah.

But outside of like that interaction, No, I never really took him to me. He's like a like sports fan.

Yeah.

Yeah, he's not saying things on a daily basis.

It's not what his social media. Yeah, and I and I think there's there's maybe something to the fact that, like we were a few drinks in, Like I don't know that you would just be bringing that.

Up at work or whatever.

Yeah.

A few sentences into this interaction, I was just like, WHOA, how do you get to this point where you believe something so wholeheartedly but you fold at even the smallest amount of pushback. Yeah, because obviously the evidence is not an existent, but conspiracy theories like Pizzagate and nine to eleven was an inside job. Like, those are very serious topics and theories that have probably led to real life

Have you guys heard about you know, Jim Morrison from The Doors, the rock band.

No, I'm sorry, there's some white ship.

Kim. We're talking to two black guys.

From The Doors.

Resident White of the podcast. Falcimore played him in a biopic in the nineties.

But oh okay, I do actually notice they think he's still alive.

Yeah, so he he was like part of the twenty seventh Club, which are like a bunch of rock stars who passed away at twenty seven. Anyway, there's a theory that he's still alive and is just living a quiet life. Is like some guy named Frank in like Syracuse, New York.

Wow, Wow, did you watch the documentary.

I think there's a I haven't watched it.

There's a documentary, and then there's a new story of conspiracy.

Yeah, that team I think earlier this year.

I would love to watch them, because one thing I will do is fucking watch a lot of Like I don't ever believe in any of them. But there's a YouTube channel called the I think it's called the Why Files, and it's just this guy who goes really deep into random theories and then at the end he tells you why they're bullshit.

Interesting?

What is another one? When I was in high school, actually I was in the International Baccalaureate program, so I kind of like AP but a little bit more vibes based versus versus objective kind of fact knowing. But one of my final papers actually was about the conspiracy that there were two shooters during the JFK assassination. And they talk about this in the movie too, that like if there were only one shooter, the trajectory of the bullet

I'm pretty anti conspiracy theory as a person. I watched this change.

And for you know, forty eight hours, thought that George Bush did nine to eleven and then, like you said, you like think about it for five more seconds and you're like, actually, no, that's not what happened.

Yeah, And like some of it, some of the deep, like the deeper conspiracy theories have like the nugget of.

Yeah, well yeah, yeah, that's that's the thing.

Because even to go back to the nine to eleven stuff, Yeah, okay, was George Bush in their planning nine to eleven?

No?

Is there something too?

You know?

Okay, they knew something was gonna happen and did less than they maybe would have to prevent it.

Yeah, because of other factors.

That's more of the believable side of the conspiracy theory, Like some of the some of these theories are more fun than the other ones were. Like I think just the political environments changed so much, where this stuff is so much more prevalent at high levels, where like I

It's like, it's just not funny anymore.

It's not funny because you have to think, You think about, like what would it take for someone to believe something like that.

And then there's actual harm done, you know, versus like, yeah, if you think there is flat, yeah, no skin off my back and.

You're an idiot. But it doesn't affect my life.

That's crazy. But it's like, but truly doesn't matter.

But to me now it's like it used to be funny when Bob was the one die exactly believe that, But now the issue is I feel like it's representative of so much other stuff that's happening where it's like, oh, it's not funny anymore, as so many people think the world is flat, because it's like, yeah, it's representative of likely it don't matter.

Everyone thinks they're the smartest person in a room.

I read a good book about the I think they just did.

They did a Netflix documentary of it about the Manson murders, and it the theory of this book is that Manton was like a informant for the government, and then also he was basically let loose, like they knew he was doing all these crimes and stuff, but they say they let him do it to kind of poison the hippie movement. I think a lot of times these things aren't as complicated as we want them to be. Yeah, and there's it's more like a negligence than an active conspiracy.

Yeah.

I think you hit the nail on the heather because it's like, there are such things as conspiracies. The things that are conspiracy theories are like the more dumb things. But obviously governments and organizations have conspired to do nefarious things in secret, and they fuel conspiracy theories. It's just that very few of these theories ever turn out to be true.

Do you give us an example.

Yeah, So the Tuskegee Experiments, for example, was of like forty plus year long study with the goal of tracking the full progression of in a black community. They recruited

I guys, this is rich.

Nst heads know me as rich from episode one. I think that the US military or US intelligence, so maybe either like the Air Force or the CIA, is actually behind or at least fueling the whole idea that Area fifty one was where aliens were like dissected and UFOs tested and all of that, because we do know that

To spy on them.

I think that Benjamin Franklin was a grifter with a great pr team. I live in Philadelphia, so his image is everywhere. To a degree I find suspicious. He's credited with inventing basically everything from electricity to bifocals to modern day fire insurance. And I don't believe that one little guy achieved all of this alone. He was never actually president, but was somehow always there as an advisor and Elon Musk kind of fraudster, the ideas guy with a big checkbook.

My theory is that Michael Jackson was a costrato. I think there's a lot of reasons for that. Obviously, you know, his voice never changed. He was making a lot of money as a kid with a voice that hadn't changed yet. I feel like I'm going crazy because it seems very obvious.

Hey, guys, be fine of your show here. I have a conspiracy theory. The cosmetics industry is totally evil. That stuff is essentially junk, synthetic junk. They selled you that, and then they selled you the remedy to fix that damage they have caused. The cosmetics industry is selling you at the same time the poison and the cure.

I think that Tesla cyber trucks are a government contracting play. So Tesla does not care about these cars meeting some big consumer market. They don't need to sell well, they don't care about bringing down the price. Doesn't matter to that. Tesla is happy to have these kind of high rollers kind of test out their weird car, and then in a few years their plan is going to be to secure some government contract and make the cyber truck the official state car of the US.

That's my conspiracy theory.

Like I said, maybe not that spicy, but I'm very attached to it.

So there's actually a pretty funny study that came out of the University of Oxford. It took a look at the viability of some of the more popular conspiracy theories, like the moon landing hoax for example. Basically, they wanted to see how many people would have to be involved in such a conspiracy and also how long it would take for that conspiracy theory to fall apart, because someone

That's pretty impressive. Eleven and three. I would think not all being paid.

Well yeah, I mean I think about a couple of months if that oh yeah, that being said not to be that guy, but not everyone at NASA needed to know that it was fake.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good point. But I would say that maybe if someone at NASA who wasn't involved with the moon landing, they're probably still smart enough to know how many people it would take to put someone on the moon. Yes, and so if they knew the team size or whatever, yeah, you might be able to be like, well that's fishy if it's only taking five people.

Yeah, yeah, only on this project.

Yeah.

Another conspiracy theory that this study looked at was the suppression of the cancer cure. So this idea that these institutions could find a cure for cancer or already have a cure for cancer, but won't release it because they can make more money by treating cancer, that would take three point one seven years to fall apart, according to the study.

Well that one, it's like, no, you just say we have the cares, it's gonna cost you a lot of money to get it.

Well, have you guys seen Common Side Effects on HBO?

No, I need to.

Yeah, I'll recommend this to our listeners. Basically, it's this animated show. It's by some of the people who did King of the Hill, and it's about big pharma suppressing a magic mushroom that's like a cure all for all kinds of diseases. It's really funny and it's also really smart. It makes you think a lot about how the healthcare system is set up in this country. And honestly, it's hilarious to hear the voice of Hank Hill being like a pharma executive.

They brought me in, a CEO with one job settled a huge fucking lawsuit that's coming at us because of the depression and the suicidal thoughts that were a side effect allegedly of spumaiva, which you know, no one talks about how much arthritis we alleviated.

But fine, So the he's in I wanted to discuss this today is because I recently listened to another podcast called Alternate Realities. It's by a friend of mine named Zach Mack. He's a reporter, a journalist and a podcaster. And the whole show is about trying to convince his father to stop believing in kind of QAnon conspiracy theories.

It's called de Niana's freedom of speech. No, it's called num of speech. It's misinformation. Now, who gets the right to label it misinformation? When all these things happen, then you will realize that I'm not as big a crackpot as you think I am, and that these are not conspiracy theories. These are reality. You're going to go, wow, that's amazing. How did he know that?

That was a clip from Alternate Realities, a three episode story that you can find on NPR's embedded series. We're here with the creator of that show, Zach Mack. He's a producer, he's a journalist, and he's a homie. He's a friend of the pod. Thanks for being.

Here, Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me.

I listened to the show. It's incredible. It made me tear up. It made me, you know, roller coaster of emotions. But for people who haven't listened to it, could you give us like a little premise, you know, walk us through what happens.

Yeah, my father has been falling down the conspiracy rabbit hole over the couple of years, last few years, and a little over a year ago I had confronted him about it, and of course he didn't want to hear me. We had just been having these same like circular arguments. And what he did next surprise me, which is he challenged me to a ten thousand dollars bet that ten of his predictions, they're very like politically apocalyptic predictions that he all believed was going to come true by the

And you know, so it was, yeah, could you.

Just lost like a couple of the his what you were betting on it? Just like maybe three or four.

Yeah, So some of his predictions were like the US would come under martial law, that Donald Trump would be reinstated without an election, that all of these top Democrats like Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Joe Biden would be rounded up and convicted of treason. It was all very like politically apocalyptic, you know. He thought that a electromagnetic pulse device would like wipe out all digital communication across the US.

And is this this is officially like q and on stuff or is a lot of it outside of Okay.

Yeah, a lot of it is qan on stuff. A lot of it is just like the right wing greatest hits fantasy. I should say. My father is like a Christian conservative. Yeah, so it's it's like kind of playing in that sphere.

That sphere.

But some of it is just like mainstream now, you know, it's all very mainstream at this point, but yeah, it's a lot of the greatest hits. None of the things is like are like, we're like things that you hadn't heard before.

Yeah, Well, I was just telling them a story about like an old high school friend of mine who has all these beliefs too, about like the Pizzagate and stuff. But my kind of interactions with him are very brief. It's like, all right, yeah, you you're kind of crazy, but uh, I'm going home now. But I can't imagine what it would feel like for someone to have these beliefs and it's someone you like grew up with in

It was?

Really?

It was.

It was like the hardest thing I've ever had to do emotionally, Like it was. It was just very challenging to like write and piece together this series and even just having to like cut tape of hearing my sister crying over and over and figuring out how to position that into an episode.

It was.

It was very strange for me as a producer. Normally I'm working on things that have to do with like pop culture or tech. I'm never reporting on my own family and my own emotional state. So yeah, it was it was quite challenging to make. But it was also really beautiful because before we started the series, my father and I were just having circular arguments.

That were going nowhere.

Once we agreed to make a show and I had to interview him, the dynamic of our conversations changed completely and we were able to have like really deep and meaningful conversations and just talk without arguing, and I could just listen to him and try to understand him a little bit better and how he got here and we got closer.

We were not close.

Before the series, and we got closer than we ever have, and we've sort of been able to talk about things that we never could before.

This is incredibly refreshing to be able to have these kind of conversations with you.

Do you feel like I know you now better?

Oh?

Absolutely? Was?

That was like the real benefit, like the positive that came out of it, but it was super challenging to make Like emotionally.

Yeah, did you feel like the show gave you like a framework to talk to your dad? Like what was the difference in the conversations, Like why did you feel like before you were talking in circles and then during the show you felt like the conversations were more productive?

What was that difference?

Yeah?

I think because when we were talking in circles, I was just being like in emotional son, I was just being like in an upset family member, Yeah, and trying to win an argument, totally totally trying to win the argument and prove how stupid he is.

You know, it's just getting We were just getting like really routed up.

Yeah, And then once we started the show, I had to approach that differently. Right, you can't just like scream at somebody on the mic. I guess some people can't,

I want to talk about some of the research and experts that you interacted with YEA to produce the show, But first we're doing this episode because we want to find out what exactly it would take to change someone's mind. You felt like the perfect person to talk about this because you set out to do that in your show and I'm not gonna spoil everything. I think everyone should go listen to it. But it's probably no surprise that like the ten things that your father laid out didn't tappen.

Oh yeah, he was zero for ten.

Yeah yeah, far far far yeah. And so I'm curious, like, after this experience, what do you personally think it would take. I mean, is the answer simply just like a more of an open mind from the conspiracy theorist.

I think it depends on who you're talking to and what they believe the more.

When I started this whole process, I sort of just thought, oh, my dad just has the wrong facts. Let me just go get them the right facts and replace them, and he'll be on his way and we'll be set. And that's just not how it works. That doesn't work at all. You really have to be almost like investigative and understand what are these beliefs doing for them? You know, what are they doing for them? What are the things in their background maybe that like transpired that kind of got

And yeah, is the idea that like, for example, we not your dad, but like a conspiracy theorists, if they are getting maybe a sense of community from being on like all the forums or whatever, is the idea that maybe if they found a sense of community in you know, some in some other facet of their lives, that they might not be so inclined to believe the theory the conspiracy theories totally.

One of the experts I was talking to who's Who's a former evangelical pastor, and he was talking about how his parents were into a lot of this stuff. A lot of the QAnon stuff, and they were talking about it all the time and how Obama was the Antichrist and all this stuff.

And then he said they moved to.

A retirement home in Florida and like had this really great community and they're golfing and they're drinking, they're hanging out with friends, and he just said, they.

Just never talk about that stuff anymore.

Doesn't mean they don't believe it, yeah, but they're just they don't need it. It's it's not of interest. And so I think a lot of times when you see like conspiracies, they are doing something like some of the things that they do for people, Like the main reasons are access to a community or it's it's.

Also like access to esoteric knowledge.

It's like I know something you don't know, so it kind of elevates you in status, like I'm up on this. And you see that behavior all the time, Like it's not just conspiracy theories like you see it with hype beasts. Right, I got these special sneakers, you can't get these rights. It's fulfilling the same need, just in a different different space.

I don't know how COVID got out.

You know that is really interesting because in the interactions I've had with my kind of like the friend that I grew up with, there always does seem to be like an air of like condescension, a little bit of like, oh, actually you would feel like I felt if you did.

More reading, Yeah, right, if you were on my level.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's like the J cole fan Yeah, yeah, exactly, But you.

Have to be on a specific level to enjoy this music.

This music is good if you're really smart.

Yeah, it's exactly like the J cole fans, Like you just see it in all these different spaces, and some people choose to get there through conspiracies, but other times it's sneakerheads or ja.

Yeah.

When you were saying that, I was thinking of, like I feel like when you read interviews, it's like someone who used to be in like the KKK or something, and it's like a lot of times it's like it doesn't seem like they actually even care about race. It's like they had some upbringing or whatever. And then it's like they're lonely. And then there's some older guy who's involved in this stuff and they take them under their wing and then it's just like boom, seems like a fun thing to do.

I guess yeah, it's like it's like more like you're just bored and like need friends.

One of the things I've seen is that with with QAnon, that and a lot of these conspiracies, they cast you as an active participant in the conspiracies. It's like, hey, you're not just some dude sitting on the couch. You are a soldier in a secret war that's being fought behind the scenes.

Like you are important.

So it gives you a sense of importance or it casts like a lot of times it's like these people are lonely or you know, maybe they don't feel of use, and suddenly they're cast as like a protector for their own family.

Right, It's like, I know this secret knowledge.

I have access to this secret knowledge, and now I can inform you and thus be of use again. And that's like that, that's a really compelling.

Yeah, just hearing about it.

Yes, where do we sign up?

One question I have is like, there's there are probably a lot of people in your position, like people who's paying parents are kind of deep into this, or maybe they have a sibling. You know, what would be your kind of advice for someone who's in this scenario?

Yeah, I mean, since I've put the project out, I've heard from literal hundreds of strangers who are like, I'm going through this exact same thing, and I realized how ununique my story was, that this is just millions of households across across the country. My advice would just be try to be curious about what's going on. You know, it's to the extent that you can be empathetic, be curious,

And that's the really.

Tough pill to swallow, because it's really hard to change someone's mind, especially most deep beliefs don't feel like choices. You know, you think about the things that you believe deeply, you would probably feel like you don't have a choice in that matter. I couldn't just tell you, like, Manny, believe this differently, Yeah right now, you it's it takes

That's a really good point. I mean, I'm trying to think of my deeply held beliefs. Like, for example, if if one of you guys are like, well, here's a couple of reasons why universal health care actually might not work, I was I be like, actually, I hear you, but I still think we should do it. Yeah, they're like foundational belief and we've.

Been trying to get him to back off this.

Well, think you and I have a similar deep belief.

You couldn't get us off that we believe like Lebron James is the greatest basketball right, Like what would it take?

It would have to be like one hundred or two hundred years from now, or someone has built like someone has built like a system where we can actually test it out where you go back in time put Lebron James. Yeah, that's what that's what it would take for I would have to watch it. I would have to watch peak Michael Jordan beat the peak Lebron James.

But then you're talking about one on one, which is a whole different game. And does Michael Jordan have access to the diet plan that Lebron is on and all, like you know nutrition.

Yea one hundred Michael Jordan's us.

Things you believe deeply don't feel like choices, and so it's it's really hard to change someone's mind.

So it's the goal then to just like make it manageable. Like you're talking about those people who move to Florida, right, It's like they may still believe it, Like the parents maybe still believe it, but let's not talk about it at dinner, you know, like you guys, that's your thing.

Well, yeah, and even like in your family, obviously, the dynamics between you and your dad is different than your sister and your dad, and your mother and your dad, and you know, it seems like you and your dad are closer than you were before. Your relationship seems in some ways maybe better but different clearly than his relationship with the other people in your family.

I mean, how does that feel?

So, I mean, just to be clear, when I got into this, it was to change my father's mind. Like, I didn't get into this to be more patient with him. I got into it to win a bet and to try to change his mind, to pull him out of this rabbit hole. I think as the year went on there there was a new level of understanding of how he got here and why he's here, and also a deeper understanding of how difficult it is to pull someone out, and a little bit of a just an acceptance of

Like, I think this is.

A real problem that we have to work as hard as we can to fix. And it's not just hey, be nicer and more empathetic at the dinner table, right like that that helps me with my father in our one on one relationship. That does not help the country and the state that we're in.

So some of these people with these beliefs are starting to become elected, so.

A lot more urgent. Yeah, I think, well.

Great man, thanks for thanks for coming to hang out with us. Be sure to go listen to Alternate Realities. Where can people find that?

Yeah, Alternate Reality is on NPR embedded. Uh, that's that's where. That's where to hear it.

Great, all right, we're back. What did you guys think, Well, you know, obviously I listen to the series.

Yeah, but it is still a little depressing to hear that you can do all this research, all this work and it's still basically impossible.

Yeah.

I think I was really I was most moved and convinced by when he was talking about, you know, replacing someone's need for community. For example, if someone is in these like online communities and they basically are there because they need a sense of community, you might be able to replace that community with something a little more healthy, and then they might not be as susceptible to the

It's like, well, even if you're wrong about something small, like how many times have you been in a dumb argument and you just don't want to say you're wrong because you're embarrassed, you know, and it's.

Like show it be some minor things.

Yeah, It's like it could be some minor thing like oh, yeah, you forgot to take the chicken out of the fridge or you know what I mean, it's like something stupid like that, and just like, oh.

No I didn't and it's like.

Yeah, it's like just a dumb thing like that, and like okay, so this is much more extreme, but like that makes it even harder to then back down from because it's like, well, now I've been talking about this for years, yeah, you know, alienating my family or whatever. It's like, yeah, I'm not going to just be like you know what, I read this article.

Mm hmm, you're right.

It is so hard. I think it's like something about it must be just human nature, like something that's so hard about being like actually I was wrong about this thing. But I remember some of those early arguments we used to have at BI when we talk about them today, I don't even remember what my stance was. That's exactly and that and that goes to show you how much I didn't care about the actual argument, but I just wanted to argue, and like wanted not to say that