You're listening to a Mother and me a podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. Hey there, Before we start today's episode, I just want to say that you are going to be hearing from some wonderful Muma Mea voices over the next few weeks as I work on another project.
Hollywayin wright, Claire Stevens a Nama Brown, who is the executive producer of this show, are all going to be sitting in my chair for a few weeks and doing the same wonderful interviews that you know and love from No Filter. There are some great conversations coming your way about red and green flags in relationships, sex and porn, addiction, escaping from a religious cult, narcissism, sobriety, and more. You'll be hearing from me soon.
Enjoy when we run away, when we see the first bread flag. It's not only that we just don't always make the best decisions. We actually lose our ability to be able to deal with difficult situations in our lives.
Our brain is like a muscle. You need to train it.
That's why you know, it's like a social skill that you need to develop, and yes, you have to face challenging situations your in life to become more resilient.
From mommea you're listening to no filter. I'm Claire Stevens, and a not so fun fact about me is that sometimes I can be a dirty, dirty gossip. I like to think that I don't engage in a mean form of gossip.
I'm more just like to think.
That I'm fascinated by people and their motivations, and really I'm engaging in quite high level behavioral analysis. But I probably have gossiped in a toxic way before, and who.
Amongst us as not?
And if I'm being really honest and just totally being forthcoming about all the flaws in my character. I also worry that I sometimes have a tendency to be a bit of a selfish friend. I'm always forgetting things like birthdays, and I'm terrible at gift giving. I sometimes think there can be what my guest today refers to as an imbalance of reciprocity in my friendships. I often feel like I'm the one who owes someone something, So are these
red flags about me? If someone met me and noticed these things, should they just run for the hills, because these are things that if you were on TikTok or Instagram and you saw a video about red flags, they might come up.
Am I just a walking, talking red flag.
Well, according to doctor Ali Fenwick, a very engaging behavioral scientist who has written a book called Red Flags, Green Flags, Modern Psychology for everyday drama, it's not that simple because in doctor Fenwick's framework, the red or green flags we see in someone else might actually say more about us than them. Like most people, I first came across the concept of red flags in the context of romantic relationships
and dating. So red, green, and even beige flags are everywhere, and we tend to use them as shortcuts to make judgments about people and to decide to just totally abandon mission when you're meeting someone if they say something or indicate some sort of behavior that just doesn't align with
what we think a good person does. We do get into flags in romantic relationships, but doctor Fenwick applies his work to all our relationships, including our relationships with our parents and siblings, our workplace, and more.
So let's jump in.
I started by asking doctor Fenwick what a behavioral scientist actually is.
Yes, a behavioral scientist basically studies the behavior and thinking and nature of human beings, either individually or within groups. And of course, as a behavioral scientist, you know, you want to understand what are those factors that really influence people's behaviors, either from the individual or from the environment. And we look at that because we want to understand why people behave the way they do, and also how can we influence people's behaviors to make sometimes better decision
for themselves. So I think that, in a nutshell, is what behavioral scientist does.
You're well known for the way you communicate quite complex psychological ideas on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and LinkedIn. I study psychology not at the level that you have, but I know that a crucial part of it is that ability to communicate science in a way that the lay people can understand. When did you start sharing your knowledge on social media?
And why?
Yeah, phenomenal question. Look, we don't really understand the gen Z generation that well, especially in the classroom, and we we also have a you know, because our work as a professor at a university, it was like, you know, how do we better engage that younger generation in the classroom, because their attention span is you know, it's more and more lower than you know that we're normally used to with adults, for example, the way they engage with content,
the way they have to be taught. So, you know, there was this question like, Ali, could you go and investigate this because you know, you're a psychologist here that our business school see if you can help us out a little bit. So of course, you know what what I thought, what was the best place to start? And I thought, let me just go online on social media.
I started basically just you know, looking into how people engage and what were they doing online, how are they communicating, how were they you.
Know, consuming content?
And then eventually I was like, know, could I try to teach people online or get across psychology in a way that is engaging to them in such an online environment, which of course is very different than what you normally
do in a classroom. And so I just kind of put that on myself to try it out, and of course, with a lot of trial and error, I eventually came to I don't want to call it a model, but I eventually found my way on social media to get content across in a very engaging way that really related to people, right, And I think that was the reason why I got online to start sharing my content and doing it in the way that I do today.
What year was it when you started to really lean in to your content?
Right? So I started this because the question came to me in twenty twenty twenty one around I would say, three years ago.
So post okay, so interestingly post COVID, so a time when people had actually leant into social media even deeper than they had previously.
Yes, absolutely, Yes.
Also during the pandemic, I was also very present on the news. You know, I was giving people a behavioral perspective to the pandemic, and so I spent a good year on the news talking about the psychological effects of the pandemic on people, or you know, how can we make working from home more effective? Or how will you know all kinds of phenomena that we saw happening in the world, like why are people going out and buying toilet paper for example. I was there to give people
a behavioral perspective to why that was happening. So I think that already started before the actual social media engagement actually happened. Once I started investigating that.
Question, and do you worry because obviously you're somebody with a very high level qualification, you're somebody with a lot of experience teaching, a lot of experience in research. Do you worry that there are some people who may misinterpret the research or use certain buzzwords from psychology and repackage it in a way that might be dangerous online.
I think you're asking a very valid questions. First of all, social media is an unfiltered environment, right, so anyone can jump in and just kind of put stuff out there, and that by itself is not always you know, it's you know, that could be potentially dangerous because you know, people are just saying stuff and you see people talking about you know, foods and nutrition and all these kinds of things that might not be even even that healthy
for you. So I think from that perspective, anything that you put online, you know, you should take it with a grain of salt. When it comes to psychology, I mean, of course, it's a lot of buzzwords and a lot of trends of course being thrown around left and right, and I often think that people don't really understand the underlying factors that underlie that, or if there's no underlying factors at all that underlie that. So, yes, that exists online. I also see the positive side of that as well.
I also think that because people now are much more aware about, you know, why people treat each other like they do in relationships, or why do people feel the way they do as an individual, I think people have become much more aware of themselves in.
The relationship that they have with other people.
And I think, you know, that is also a positive aspect of it as well. But you're right, you know, I think social media has this unfiltered aspect to it, which makes it sometimes you know, we need to be a bit more critical about what we see online.
Yeah, yeah, And I think that a lot of your recent work has been on red flags and how we approach them, and this idea of red flags, green flags, beije flags have It's been huge on social media and it's huge in just our conversations with each other.
Why do you think we are.
So determined to have the kind of verifiable red flags that we can look at.
Why are we drawn to this concept?
Well, look, we live in a very fast paced world nowadays, right, and so quick decision making is often heralded in today's society.
Work with friends and whatnot.
And I think that's one of the main reasons why people, you know, do very much like the kind of red
and green flag phenomena. The red and green flag phenomena initially started in the dating world, and why because a lot of people are very unhappy about their dating lives, and you know, many people don't want to commit anymore in relationships and and so you know a lot of people are getting very frustrated with that, and so it's always good to have a way of, you know, quickly being able to assess if a potential partner is you know, a green flag or a potential red flag in many different ways.
And that's how it initially started.
And so since then it's kind of, you know, it's gone from the dating world into other kind of social domains, so for example, work life, family and friends, romance and marriage. And people very much enjoy that, again just because they want to have quick and easy answers to you know, the dilemmas that they deal in their lives.
However, I should put a side.
Note to that. The quick decision making is also not good for us either, right, can trip us up, can lead to biased outcomes.
And so that's why, you.
Know, when when I wrote the book about red flags and green flags, I wanted to provide people with the red and green flags, the solid ones, you know, the well understood ones, the well researched read and green flags you know, and these are healthy indicators, and these are
unhealthy indicators of behavior. But I also wanted to provide people with a process as well, to slow down their thinking and to be more mindful and reflective or why they do the things they do, so that they can, you know, not only make the right decisions in the moment, but also can be more reflective about their behaviors and hopefully lead to better decision making in the process.
I loved that concept because something I worry about, and you've written about this, the idea that we're living in such a highly individualized culture that the way we're responding and interacting with each other changes because of that. And I think sometimes the way red flags are presented is you say a thing, you run the other way. And what I love is that your book entirely challenges that narrative, and your idea is no, no, no, no. You look at a red flag and there's kind of a there's a
process to follow. Can you explain what the process is when you recognize a red flag?
Exactly what I did in the book is I used red and green as an acronym. So red in this case stands for reflect, engage in deside. So don't run away immediately when you see a red flag. Now why do I say that? I think, and this is kind of the psychological effects of you know, quick decision making in today's world. You know, I think when we run away when we see the first red flag, it's not only that we just don't always make the best decisions, we actually lose our ability to be able to deal
with difficult you know, situations in our lives. Our brain is like a muscle. You need to train it. That's why, you know, it's like a social skill that you need to develop. And yes, you have to face challenging such your life to become more resilient.
And so that's why.
That the red acronym of reflect engage society is when you see a red flag, don't immediately run away because nine out of ten times it won't be something that you probably have to run away from. Because when you see a red flag in somebody else, it could mean that you might be the red flag. And so when you reflect on it, Okay, what's happening to me right now? Why am I feeling this way? Why am I getting triggered? Then you can start to engage with it, either engage
with it to figure out more. Is this truly a red flag that I'm seeing in somebody else? Or why am I getting so triggered about it? What's it about me that I you know that I don't like about this person? Or what I why do I see this in this other person? And so you start to reflect on that, and if you really reflect and become more introspective, you might see that it might have to do with something from your past or from a past experience, or you it's something that's inside of you and not in
the other person. And I think that reflective capability is something that we're losing in a world that we're you know, when we're just kind of pushed to make these fast and quick decisions.
And that's why I wanted to provide.
That method there so that people could definitely become more mindful about their interactions with people. Because I also feel that you know, not just what we see in the dating world, but also what we see with friendships and family. People are so easy to let go of people nowadays, and human relationships are the cornerstone of our health, of our mental well being, you know, of our success in life.
So I think that's the main reason why I came up with that, with that process to help people improve their decision making.
I loved that concept that sometimes is actually reflecting something about you, and that there's a bit of a symbiotic relationship between what you're bringing to that particular red flag exactly. Then you've got a green flag, and there's kind of a process around that and your idea around what a green flag actually means?
Can you break that down absolutely?
So, as I mentioned before, green is also an acronym in the book, So green stands for genuine, respectful, elevating, empathetic, and nurturing. So basically, green behaviors have all or some of these attributes related to it. And so when we think of a behavior, can that behavior be elevating, could it be nurturing?
Is it respectful?
And so that's a way for us to evaluate if something is of unhealthier behavior. But also what I say in the book is that we, you know, having also us ourselves, we need to also make sure that we nurture the green behaviors that we see in people, because we often take them for granted, and when we you know, our brains are being naturally designed to identify warning signs in our.
Lives as a way to keep us alive.
So we're so much more tuned to the negative than to the positive. But if you want your positive behaviors or of that of others to continue, it's also so important to nurture those behaviors as well. And that's something that I think often gets forgotten this whole discussion around green flags. It's like you need to nurture them, you know, don't just take them for anted, you know, do something
about that positively reinforce that behavior. I really like the fact that you listen to what I was saying, but also to what I was not saying. That really made me felt heard and listened to. So in those kind of interactions that you can have with people, you can also feed that back, and I think that's just another great way of sustaining positive relationships with people and ensuring that you know, those green behaviors continue as well.
Yeah, I think you really added kind of a depth to that concept of green flags, because you can just think it's something that I like, and then breaking it down, there's a really deep psychological reason why we like it. You do divide the book into four sections. There's one on family and friendships, one on work relationships, one on dating, one on romantic relationships.
And at the end of the book.
You've got a bit of a kind of quiz about that you can do with a partner, any kind of person in your life. And I to look at some of the questions and it sort of gets you to look at your own personal red flag. So I thought I might bring two of mine to you, and I'd like you to help me work through them. So first my first red flag gossiping.
OK.
And when I read what you wrote about gossiping, you go into why we gossip, which I thought was great because that really validated why I do it in the first place. But do you want to kind of take us through when gossiping turns toxic at like when it is a red flag and when it's okay.
Well, look, gossiping is part of human nature, right. We all like to gossip. And I think also what I mentioned in the book when I talk about gossiping, is that there's you know, different cultures have all the different types of names for people who gossip, and it's so ingrained into us cross culture. And so gossip serves a purpose in society, right, It's a very important purpose because it's a way for us to kind of feel also a little bit more safer when we feel uncertain, so
we talk about things and we share things. It's also a way in the past, it was kind of like a more of a social control in a sense within
a social system. If we wanted to make sure that people didn't do things that were bad for our survival within a social system, within a social group, then of course gossiping served as a way to punish people if they did something bad, right, and so you would be kind of no, I wouldn't say outcasted, but it was a way to have people understand, you know, ware you contributing to the social group that you belong to or not.
And so again it's interesting people don't often think That's why I love going so deep into the construct of gossiping and what it serves again when we feel unsafe or you know, for example, in the workplace, when a lot of change happens, people gossip, right, And they don't do that because they have bad intent.
They often do that because they kind of want.
To bond with people. They're very uncertain of what's really happening to them, and so they talk and said did you hear about this? And did you hear about that?
And so it does serve.
A psychological purpose for why we engage in it. Now in the book, I dicyct gossip into two parts. Right, positive gossip, Yes, it exists. Positive gossip exists. So people, if you're out there listening, please do gossip, but do it in a positive way, and of course read the
book to find out how to do that. So positive gossip is actually, you know, where you kind of you know when people say, well, your your reputation precedes here, right, we heard such great things about you, and and you know, you share stuff about the other person that you know, is you know, we'll put them in what we enhance the reputation and is something positive that you do. That's kind of more of the positive gossip that we engage in, which is always a good thing to do because again
gossiping is part of human nature. But again gossiping can also be very negative. So when isn't a red flag is when you are using gossip to intentionally hurt somebody or their reputation. Unfortunate thing about gossip, either with friends, family, or in the workplace, it's hard to it's hard to go again, especially when it becomes part of a social construct or you know, it becomes part of the of the social discussion. You know, how do you go against
gossip when it's not true? And so I think, you know, people should be aware of why they gossip in the first place. It's more reflective. I am I gossiping because I'm scared I want to hurt somebody?
What's the reason why I'm doing this?
That's not always easy for somebody, first of all, but I think it's very important to become more aware of why you gossip. And then second of all, you know, what is this gossip serving? Is it serving me? Is it serving the other person? Am I trying to be vindictive? You know? I think that's that's when when it's on the negative end, that's when I consider the gossip to
be very negative. Again, coming back to in summary to saying that there's a positive aspect to it, but there's also very much a negative aspect to it, and I think as a guideline, where you hurt someone intentionally or you're trying to ruin someone's reputation, you know, that's that's when I definitely say it's a red flag, watch out for that.
And I think one thing I've noticed in social situations around gossip is that if people are gossiping and you kind of want to go against it, so say they're all having a shared reality of a situation or a person and you want to go against it, you can feel quite disagreeable and as though you're going against the social cohesion of the moment, and.
That's really hard.
And so I think you write quite a bit about people pleases and how people pleasing comes up in when it comes to all sorts of red flags. And I think when I read about gossiping that came up for me that I thought, sometimes it's a way of kind of making a social situation more comfortable that you're like, oh, just join in and agree because I want people to
like me. But I think we all know deep down when we are gossiped too, we're pretty sure we're going to be gossiped about and it's a pretty gross feeling. So I found that discussion of red flag fascinating. The other one that I wanted to talk to you about is the idea of being a bit of a selfish friend. So you write about the friend who doesn't reciprocate. That
social relationships are based on reciprocity. That the idea is, you know, you buy dinner one time, I'll buy dinner the next time, and that goes for you know, levels of disclosure, that goes for all sorts of things.
I wanted to ask you.
Sometimes I think of it in terms of love languages that for example, I'm not a gift person. I don't like to receive gifts, and I don't I'm terrible at giving them because they're not important to me.
With things like that, if I'm.
Not a person who's going to give gifts when I've received them, or if I'm crap at organizing so I never booked the dinner, Am I a walking red flag?
No? No, Look, I mean look, as you mentioned, every relationship you know is based on this level of reciprocity.
It's what strengthens human bonds.
I do something for you, you do something for me. It doesn't mean that you know, there's there's there's various types of way of how we reciprocate to people, and you know, it doesn't mean that, for example, in a love language context, for example, that you know, I gift giving is something that somebody your partner might like and another person doesn't like. But it could also just be words of affirmation. It could also be a you know, physical physical touch. It could also be something that you
do for another person. Doesn't have to be exactly in that kind of and you know, in the same way like I invite you, you invite me. Of course that should happen, but reciprocity happens, especially when the relationship becomes more complex and more deeper, that you reciprocate in many different ways. So it doesn't have to specifically.
Be that you give something back and me to be at the same level.
Maybe in the beginning of relationships and friendships you do that, but over time that changes, right, And in the book, I also mentioned about the emotional bank account that you build up with people. So and what is an emotional bank account? So basically, you know, you know, exchanges don't always happen in a fair way, and I mean or in a balanced way. Sometimes ticket in families and relationships, you know you need to do a little bit more for somebody else, or someone else does a little bit
more for you. But if you've already built up an emotional bank account, you know that you can trust another person and that you you know you've got a very strong and long term relationship with another person, then there's something of a buffer there, as it may, and that buffer becomes your emotional bank account. So when there are times come that you need to give more, you do, but you do always still take into consideration that that
will be reciprocated over time. But what can happen, and this is where the red flag aspect comes in, is that sometimes people get so used to you giving more than you actually taking and that unbalances the power relationship or the relationship you know in general, and then eventually it becomes like, oh, I'm expecting you to give this to me, And that's when you know, I think it's a good warning sign, a red flag to watch out for it when you know eventually things are not being
reciprocated anymore.
After this short break, doctor Fenwick and I discuss the challenge of toxic relationships with parents stay with us. There's a red flag in the book around the unavailable or unreliable parent, and this I know is huge in a lot of my friendships that people really struggle with how they are meant to engage with a parent who didn't give them what they need. Can you explain how you approach that red flag and the nuances that come with it?
Oh? Yeah, Look, I mean I don't think that the chapter that I wrote. I think that was chapter number two that I wrote, the red flag number two. You know, it doesn't do complete justice to that, to the whole field of you know, neglect, abuse and not being not getting enough attention from a parent in your childhood. There's so many consequences to that, right, and so what I do do in that chapter is I do highlight some
of the consequences. Again, I provide that psychodynamic perspective, So how that you know how your childhood and how for example, you know, having that experience not having the right you know, upbringing or not getting the right support as a child can actually have a huge impact on how you form relationships, but later in life, how you attach to people, emotional regulation, and also how you see yourself right, in terms of self esteem.
Do you think that there's a clear way to tell.
When it is time to end a relationship with a parent that because there's a big kind of trend about talking about cutting people off and when to just walk away, and you know, we know it Mayo. When we write a story about that, we get huge engagement, We get huge amounts of feedback from our audience saying that they are dealing with that. How do you, as a behavioral psychologist, think that somebody should go about making that decision?
Look, that is a really personal decision, right, I mean breaking off of parents. But I do now see that you know a lot more people are thinking about it. Look, I think this is again, I'm going to bring it back. It's a personal question, back into the kind of red flag analogy. If your parental relationships, your family relationships are hurting your well being, your physical and mental well being, then I always say you should try to take distance.
And it's not easy and it's not possible for everybody. We need to be mindful of that as well. Right, everyone can just say, oh, I'm going to say bye to my parents, But at the same time, I think we're also saying goodbye too easy. And that's where I want to challenge sometimes this idea of just you know, I've got an argument with my parents or my parents
don't accept me as I am. But you know, everything takes time, you know, and then eventually it's about how you deal with your relationships in the future that actually make relationships successful. And again I come back to kind of this idea of that relationships are you know, your ability to form and sustain relationships is it's a muscle
that you need to continue to strengthen. So distancing, I would always say when it comes to family, distancing is always, you know, is a good option if things are really not working out for you again, mental physical abuse, distance yourself.
Let's talk about siblings.
You know, there are so many siblings that I think more siblings actually take distance from each other and even speak to each other again. And actually that you know, kids distance themselves from their parents or let's you know, completely disconnect from their parents. But I do think taking time out and giving people time to become the person that they need to become, or to become more aware of why they behave the way they do, I think
is really really important. I think time can heal many things, but not everything. But also at the same time, it's really important that you also consider, you know, how you want to continue relationship with your parents, maybe at the top point of time that you're really in a big argument with them, that you take distance from them, so I don't want to see you again. But maybe also there's parts of you that say, you know, you're still
my mother, you're still my father. You know, I might not respect you anymore, or I might not you know, I love you anymore, but you're still part of me and I and I you know, I definitely want to see if we can find a way in the future
so we can sele that. But again, there are many situations that we know of that are very terrible, like very abusive kind of relationships and where people really can't you accept anymore of being part of their lives or even wanting to be connected to them, and then those extreme situations. I do believe that, you know, completely distancing yourself from a parent is a viable option, But I would like to challenge this idea of you know, oh,
you have a fight this distance to shell from them. No, I think with family it's a little bit harder than actually with maybe with friends.
Yeah, yeah, I think sometimes people misunderstand boundaries a little bit. Where for example, I think a lot of people find that your relationship with your parents can be really complicated and quite loaded. And I always joke that when my siblings and my parents all get together, we.
All regress to who we were as teenages.
So sometimes you bring out the worst versions of each other and I become somebody that I'm not usually, and I annoy my brothers, and there's all this stuff going on, and you can kind of look at that and find it, you know, think oh, this is uncomfortable, so I'll just avoid it all together. But that idea of actually building a muscle, because they're also the longest relationships that you
have in your entire life. Something else that comes up a lot in the social media space is this idea of the narcissist or a psychopath and what you're meant to do when you encounter them. And people love labeling people nists when they Yes, yes they're not as common as TikTok would have you believe. But the idea around psychopathy, for example, is that these people are not capable of empathy.
They are cruel they'll create chaos, they'll use whatever emotional disclosures you make to them against you, So run away. What's your idea when it comes to those types of people that people really recognize as being narcissistic or kind of emotionally or just devoid of empathy.
Well, I mean it depends.
Look true narcissists, right, people that actually have narcissistic personality disorder, or who are psychopaths or very I mean, the prevalence in society is very low. Right, psychopathy is about one percent of the population. And again, you're right, just mention that we're so at the moment that we don't like something about somebody, we immediately label them as a narcissist. Right, Oh you don't do something for me, Oh, you're a narcissist. And I think that's the thing that we need to
watch out for. So true narcissist if we engage with them, or a true psychopath. I mean, the best thing to do here is to stay away from them. And I think that's if you look at all the literature, and there's also there was an amazing book written called Snakes and Suits, which talks about psychopathy in the workplace. You only find psychopaths and narcissistem in prisons. You also find them in the boardroom. So there's different environments where we
can encounter narsis. But you know, I think one of the guiding principles around dealing with narcissists is to try to stay away from them. They can be very destructive. If you try to go against them, they'll make it their lives sometimes to go against you. So I mean the key takeaway is stay away from them. I mean, that's that's the best thing that you can do. Or try to avoid them as much as possible, don't try
to engage with them. That you know, I think would be the best advice, and I would even repeat in that perspective. But identifying narcissists and psychopaths, I mean, again, we can identify traits. What's very interesting is, you know, bringing it back into the boardroom situation. They often say that, you know, organizations tend to, you know, to have more narcissists than the average population does. But some studies and actually quote that in the book, you know about let's
say one to five percent of narcissists and psychopaths. You can actually for social paths, you can actually find in an organization. But up to I think one study that I quoted was about twenty percent of some executives actually have narcissistic traits. So in some way these kind of narcissistic traits are being appreciate it especially when it comes to business and profit and do we always need to
have empathy at work? Now? It seems also when we look into leadership literature that the higher we get into positions, the more power that we achieve, the less empathetic we become. So again, is your boss a narcissist or is he or she showing narcissistic traits such as less empathy towards
other people? Because you need to make bigger decisions, I think that we need to be very careful about what we label as a being narcissistic or psychopathic, But from true narcissists I think we should stay away from.
But yeah, the whole study, all the studies that.
Talk about the impact of power on our emotions and decision making and on our behavior is fascinating because to some extent they resemble narcissistic traits and also psychopathic traits.
As well, because you imagine that it's just those types of people go into those types of roles and then they thrive in it because you it's easy to make a decision about mass redundancies when you don't have amphithy for the people you're making redundant. But it's interesting that it can actually work the other way, that it's that power that then changes how you see people.
And exactly.
You write a lot about workplace dynamics and our behavior within it, and you talk about how it's particularly important to put boundaries in place at work because issues can arise when you become friends with your colleagues. And this is something in an all female workplace where it's creative and you're sharing personal stories. I have always ended up being friends with the people I work with. Can you explain how that can become an issue and how you're meant to walk that line?
Oh, I just I recently got quoted in the CNN about this, and they use the headline that I said it was like, becoming friends at work is not the norm.
People are just there to make money, into care, to take.
Care for the success. And I stand behind that cot, I stand behind that car, and I'll tell you right. Look, of course, when you spend a lot of time with your friends, with your colleagues, you become close with them, and yes, you can become deat buddies and you can become really really good friends.
It can happen, of course, it can happen.
But at the same time, you know when people and this is why I kind of put out a bit of a warning sign, is you know, people are in the workplace to make money, they're there for their career, they're there for their survival. And I would say the majority of times people don't really show up with their true face. We all go to work with our professional identity on, with a professional mask, and so do we
really get to see the real person who's there. Maybe the person can be so lovable and nice and shows us that, but I don't always think that the person has you know, will show up as the real person workplace and you never know why they do that, right, but we do know that they're there to make money
and career. Some people might misuse your trust in the workplace to advance themselves or you know, in some occasions also to make sure that you might get fired or not get promoted so they can stay there in the workplace or get that promotion that they feel that they deserve. So I kind of want to say that it's when we try to build friends in the workplace, we're not building friends based on the social norm. We're also building
friends based on the market norm. And I think that's something that we need to be more aware of and the fact that a lot of us don't bring our full true self to work, and I think that's where, you know, we need to be a little bit more mindful. Not saying that we definitely can't make friends at work, but we just need to be a little bit more mindful about you know, that people are not always showing up as they are, so take your time, you know.
I'm not saying that you can't make friends.
Take your time, get to know your friends, get closer to them, but always, you know, be a little bit mindful about making friends in the workplace.
I think that's the that's a really interesting perspective that because there are people that come to work and you think they are very boundaried that it's like, Okay, you come to work and your life outside of work is your life. And I'm always kind of jealous of those people because I'm terrible at it. But you're right, that it can blur the social dynamics when there's power and money and ambition involved, and yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. Another example that you have for a red flag in a
workplace is a workplace not respecting your boundaries. And you kind of talk about how people It goes both ways that a workplace.
Can you know, ask can you work on Sunday? Can you work on Sunday?
But when you actually break it down and get people to reflect, you've got to ask you the one who's actually struggling to set the boundaries yourself?
Are you saying yes?
And I'm definitely the kind of person who is a people pleaser and perfectionistic, so I want to I'm like, yes, yes, yes, I'll do all the things. And then you're sort of like, hold on, I feel like my boundaries aren't being respected.
What kind of.
Things can we do to make sure that we're setting up that dynamic where things are really clear?
Well, I mean that's also very hard thing to do. I mean, you can have you can have policies in place, and you can have good work practices in place, you know, and some teams and some organizations do an amazing job at that, Like they say look at five o'clock, you go home, or you choose which do you want to work from home? You balance things like yourself. But not
every organization can work that way. But I think the key thing here is first of all, good work hygiene, so understanding of having good practices in the first place and policies, but also allowing flexibility in there. I think that's so important because people, again it comes back to that kind of law of reciprocity. If I give you more flexibility, you probably will give me more of your
time in return. But when you can do that and when you cont that, so I almost say that to work with boundaries, sometimes it's also good to give people the flexibility to make their own decisions and then people might go a little bit more for you without feeling that they're actually overstepping their own boundaries.
Yeah, and perhaps that's one of the reasons it feels like the workplace has changed a little bit in recent years and people are getting a little bit more you know, the whole quiet quitting trend, and people are getting a lot more strict about what they believe a workplace is entitled to ask from them.
Because I think at least that during.
COVID, the workforce did a lot to help businesses in that you know, all of us were like, Okay, we'll change our lives to work from home, and we will. You know, some of us had to move into a different kind of place where we had an off where we could work from home, which was not something we had ever had to do before. And so it's sort of like, you know, the workforce felt like they had adapted, and then you look at your workplace and say, okay, well.
What are you going to do for me now?
And I think gen z who have come in sort of post that work change are then having a very different experience and.
Very confused about what work was like before.
And not not kind of expecting it to be a Monday to Friday nine to five situation.
Well, look, I think there's a lot to be said about that. And you know, during the I think the.
Pandemic when we you know, this term came up called the Great Resignation, and you know, people are like disgrundled with having to work so much and dealing with the enserrtainty of COVID nineteen at the time.
But one of the reasons why.
A lot of people actually left at the organization is because that disgruntleman already existed prior to the pandemic. So you know, people were very already very.
You know, not that engaged. If you look at the Gallop surveys.
That came out, you know, completely disengaged, you know, highly disengaged or disengaged. In total, it was the majority of the workforce. And so people already very unhappy with this kind of hustling, like you had to work so many hours and you know, go over time, and you know, I think what COVID did is made people more reflective, made more made them more mindful of what's really important
to me. I have a virus out there that is going to potentially kill me, and you're asking me to work twelve hours a day sitting in my home.
No, thank you.
I'm going to take care of a parent or a cat or whatever. So people changed their priorities. And why a lot of people, not only did the workforce laid off a lot of people, why a lot of people decided just to quit, is because they were already very unhappy with how things were going. And I think this changed the dynamic right in terms of the relationship and the power between the employer and the employee. Now you said something interesting about gen Z because of course now
you know, I talk about it in the book. You know, quiet quitting has become a new phenomena quiet holiday, and I didn't mention that in the book. But that's also a big thing where a lot of people are just kind of, oh, you told me I can work remotely and then their own you know, the Bahamas and wait a minute, so you're.
Supposed to be working.
I am working, but where are you.
I'm like, I'm in the Bahamas right now. So that also has become a thing.
And I think that the gen Z generation just from their mindset is their parents were the Millennials maybe gen xers, and they saw their parents work so extremely hard, they often didn't see their parents at home.
And they have grown up now in a world where you know.
There is there is no certainty for them in many different ways, financially, work wise, relationship wise. So why should I give my ole when I'm not getting anything in return. So they're prioritizing mental health, they're prioritizing their personal lives, you know, as much as possible.
And you know, many people don't want to have the nine to five job.
They see that a nine to five job can't even pay the bills nowadays. So a lot of younger people nowadays want to become actors, They want to become influencers. So they do the job because it potentially might get them to do them something else in the future. They don't feel that connection and commitment to the organization, but at the same time, they do expect you know that that you know that they're treated well and that they're
not overwork. They have a good manager, there's you know, there's diversity and inclusion policies in place that you know, help them feel that they can bring their whole sales to work.
Otherwise they're going to work for you.
And I think that that dynamic has forced organizations to rethink their strategy when working with employees, especially in a post pandemic era.
When we return, doctor Fenwick and I dive into dating. Did you know that most ghosting happens on the third date because I didn't stay with us. I want to briefly touch on dating because, as you said at the beginning, that is where a lot of this red flag stuff
started from. And you talk about some of the dating red flags, and then apply that same process, and I wanted to talk about some of the parts of dating that are particularly contentious and how you can make a decision about whether or not that particular thing is a
red flag for you. One thing I've heard from a lot of men, and I've never asked anyone about this, but I've heard from a lot of men, and you write about it in the book when you're seeing someone and you can't make a decision about it because you're not feeling anything. And I'd never seen this acknowledged and I'd never seen it normalized.
Can you talk me through?
So, if you're seeing someone and you feel nothing, how do you decide whether or not that is a red flag or whether that's okay?
Wonderful question.
Let me give you a bit of some context to this point.
That why I mentioned it in the book. So I'm a very data driven person, and the twenty four chapters that I wrote are based on my most viral content that went viral on all my platforms, meaning that these were truly topics that people I'm most concerned about. One of them was I don't feel anything anymore right? Oh I like you, my mind says I like you, But my heart says nothing, you know, is there something wrong
with me? And so I broke that down not feeling anything into potential red flags and green flags and why can happen, you know, from reasons of mental health issues all the way to what people don't realize, for example, is over usage of social media and on mobile phones, and you know how basically that overstimulation of dopamine can lead to us not feeling as much as normal, And so people don't realize that, And so I break down in that chapter, why is it that a lot of
us are not feeling anything? Sometimes it's just temporary and we deal with it and it passes by. Just think of a stressful moment, death in the family. You know, it's just kind of like a coping strategy. Sometimes it could be something more serious, and then that's something that you need to kind of further investigate with a medical
professional and see if there's anything wrong there. But it could also just be for example, because we're just feeling so overwhelmed and you know, at the same time, you know, we're just using also we're using our mobile phones too much, and there's and I provide some insights from studies there also that you know over mobile phone usage and social media over usage actually can lead us to feeling much
more less and feeling much more numb. So I wanted to in that chapter to explain when is feeling nothing a potential green flag and when is it a red flag, so that people can become more mindful, because on social media, the response is when I came out with because I made a video on that on that topic, it was like, you're so right, why am I not feeling anything? It's
like I've become completely numb and why is that? And that's why I wanted to provide some perspectives there and also what we can do about it and how we can start feeling again.
And so say you are dating someone and you objectively you're looking at them and you think I find them attractive, I find them interesting, I enjoy our time together, but I'm not feeling anything. How do you overcome that? And how do you make a decision when there's not that gut instinct.
That's well, I mean again, the reason why you're not feeling anything in the first place, It could be multiple reasons there, right, So that needs to be that needs to be thoroughly investigated, which sometimes requires also a medical professional to see as well, because if you don't feel anything at all, it could be an indicator that something else is happening with you.
If it's just.
Because of how you're living right now, you're just kind of living your day day by day, you're going into the motus of things, and you don't really spend a lot of time of going very because I think that's one of the big problems nowadays, is that we're not building deep enough connect right We're not really getting to know the other person.
If we're very quickly deciding.
That, you know, we don't want to you know, I don't want to be with you because I see this first red flag where you know, I just like to keep it very superficial and let's just keep it sexual. You're not really getting to know the person at a more emotional level. And I think that is also another reason why we might not be feeding things.
Because we're it's a quick forable.
We're happy with the exchange that physical and intimacy exchange, but we're not looking for something much more deeper because our lives are busier. We have our friends, you know, that we want to invest in, and we.
Don't want drama. I think a lot of people are now saying.
To themselves, I don't want drama, so I don't want to deal with relationships. But again, that mental muscle comes to play the moment we just keep things superficial, less likely we are to build a more deeper emotional connection. So coming back to your answer from that perspective, I would say, spend time.
To get to know the person that you're dealing with.
Understand your compatibility beyond the physical compatibility, look for spiritual compatibility, look for emotional compatibility, value compatibility physical, well, not physical I already mentioned, but look at other kinds of compatibility with another person so that you can get to know each other.
Do you think the other part of it is, because I've heard you talk about this that with dating now, we feel like we constantly have infinite options. So when we are seeing someone in the back of our mind, we're also thinking, yeah, but there's also a million other people in my phone, Like, do you think we're not kind of getting that depth because we're a little bit distracted.
You hit the nail on the head. I think one of the reasons why people are finding it hard to find someone they can be with for a longer period
of time. Is dating apps have created this illusion and I emphasize the word of loosing here because it is an illusion that there's so many other options out there, like there's a limited less amount of people that we can connect with and date with, and so when something doesn't go right with a person that we're dating at the moment, we just get you know, we get rid of them.
We don't like them.
Oh it's too much drama, so I'll just move on to somebody else. I think that's one of the major reasons why people are finding it much more harder.
To date in today's world.
Then again, they're losing their ability to strengthen their social muscle or their mental ability to kind of deal with challenging situations, which then becomes kind of like a vicious circle to the extent that eventually you get so used to switching partners that eventually you I mean, I won't say it becomes impossible, because it's much more harder to build more sustainable relationship with every every relationship, you know, every long term relationship is going to deal with some
form of drama, right, and some a little bit more than others, and especially love relationships because when we are emotionally connected romantically connected to people, you know, parts of our past and attachment styles of course immerse and and you know, I often like to say that when we fall in love, we should also be mindful of not to falling in love with the good things about people, but we also need to fall in love with people's
developmental spaces as well. You know, We're part of being in a long term relationship is also helping each other to heal in that perspective, to build trust and to learn again. And I think a lot of us in today's world are probably because we're just there for the transaction. We're so much more focused on the pleasure and not on the complete you know, the completeness of being with
somebody else. And then when that comes out, you know, and it eventually does in every relationship that comes out to some extent, you know, then people get afraid and they don't know what to do, and then again that pushes them away as well. So this is why I wrote the book. I can see this from a behavioral perspective happening. I think it's it's a scary development, But I do think we have the skills and capabilities inside of us to go against it and to do something about it.
So that's why I really.
Want people to become more mindful of their interaction with people and make the most understand that, Yeah, you know, challenge is part of our lives, and you know, we need to if we want to form strong relationships, we need to do a little bit more than just bouncing from one person to another. But technology, unfortunately today gives us the feeling that we can replace people easily. But the other thing that I also mentioned in the book is how technology has been designed and how that also
makes us more willing to mistreat people. And that's even more concerning.
I loved hearing about that in the context of dating, because I think we hear it a lot about social media and the fact that we kind of dehumanize people. But it's so true that on an app, I mean, even the idea of ghosting someone is quite dehumanizing. You're no longer really seeing them as a person with feelings, and like you're seeing them as a text message that yeah yeah, yeah, and just just as an option rather
than a fully fledged human being. And I think that that's such a such an interesting thing to look at The last thing I want to ask you about is something that has come up a lot in recent years, which is ethical non monogamy. And we've heard more and more about open relationships. And I really liked the breakdown of this because there are some context where somebody asking to open up a relationship could be a red flag and there are some times when it could be a
grain flag. Could you break down what someone should consider when they're thinking about opening up a relationship.
Yes, you know, the open relationships has become is increasing, right, the amount of people that want to be in an open relationship for multiple reasons. And again I think also because we believe that there's so many people out there and you know, try before you die. Let's say, yeah, yeah, yeah,
this kind of this mindset that is emerging. And so even people that have been in long term relationships nowadays are saying, you know, you know, they're proposing either to open up the relationship and sometimes even deciding if that's not going to happen, just to kind of break up and move away. And I think a lot of people that receive that question, that's why I wrote that chapter. Is that what you you do when your partner asks you should we open up the relationship? And this is
again a very personal question. I address the phenomena of why people are opening up with more their relationships and and what you can do about it, like, for example, if you're if you're not okay with it, then just say no, right then, I don't want this.
It doesn't fit with my values. This is not something that I'd want.
And are you okay? Are you? Do you stand behind your decisions and also understanding that that might end your long term partnership or your relationship. But again I also put in you know, suggestions and talking about how you can consider maybe having an open relationship. Now I'm not promoting it, but I'm saying how you can consider it, and and saying, well, look, you know, I never thought about that. I am, I really care about my relationship.
One thing we also need to be mindful of is every long term relationship, you know, people's needs evolve and change happens to everybody, and sometimes that comes also to the to the intimacy level as well. And so I I think it's really good that a partner can voice their evolving needs to the other partner instead of cheating, because to you is the worst thing that you can do.
So voice your.
Interest in your desires and discuss that with your partner in the most respectful and mindful way possible. If your partner is open to that, then at least you know, then discuss it and see how that works. And so in the book I also say, well, if it's something you like, you'd like to try as well, go ahead
with it, but also put in some contingencies. And this is where I kind of, you know, I add some kind of gray areas into it, like put in some contingencies and say I've tried this, but I don't like it. And I also want to agree with you that if I've tried it and I don't like it, that we can go back to where we were or decide to
move away from each other. So what am I trying to do there is I'm trying to open up that conversation in a way that can help people to navigate that discussion and not just be a black and white discussion.
For some people it's a.
Yes or no. But because more and more people are asking this in a relationship, how can you navigate that discussion? Because maybe it might just be a moment, a moment, a momentarily thing of a partner, and maybe that partner probably you know, will be okay to stay with you,
even not opening up the relationship. It's about having the dialogue and having the conversation and doing that with being as least triggered as possible, because every relationship is about communication in the end, and that's kind of what I wanted to provide in that chapter, to help people know how to navigate that conversation.
Yeah, and I think for a lot of people it would be you might have an instinctive reaction to for it to feel like a rejection or to feel like chating when when it's not. And I mean, I think a thing throughout the whole book is the complexity and the nuances in relationships and the fact that you have to tackle them if you want to build really really strong, long lasting, deep ones. I want to thank you so much for your time today. I could speak to you forever.
Should we should do a follow up?
Yes, definitely, definitely. I'll bring I'll bring some.
New red flags that I've discovered about myself. I hope doctor Fenwick takes me up on that offer. So do you feel like you've had some of your ideas challenged, like you have a bit of a more nuanced and considered understanding of what other people's behaviors mean and how to interpret something that might be screaming red flag but might actually be a good.
Opportunity for some self reflection.
After this conversation, I'm far more inclined to pause when I encounter a red flag in someone else, and to think twice and have a bit of a moment to look within before bolting or judging, or, as I've been known to do, gossiping, and that's the bad kind of gossip. I'll probably stick to the positive kind that doctor Fenwick says is okay. Whether it's at work, or with our
families or in romantic relationships. There's an increasing trend I've noticed to set boundaries that might end up isolating us, and doctor Fenwick's work is a powerful reminder to err on the side of connection, of empathy, and of learning more about others and about ourselves. The executive producer of No Filter is Nama Brown. Audio production and sound design
by Jacob Brownd. Maya Friedman is the creator and the host of No Filter, and it was a joy to sit in the big chair for her Today, I'm Claire Stevens.
Thanks for listening.