You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. The first time I spoke with Ellie Sedgwick, otherwise known as the Volver Photographer, was in twenty twenty two, and this is such an interesting conversation that I know you'll want to listen to, and we're bringing it back to you because there is
a new chapter to this story. I asked Ellie for an update on how her project is going since the last time we spoke, and this is the voice note that she sent me.
Hey, Mia, it's Ellie. I just wanted to send you a little update as a lot has happened since we last recorded this podcast. I'm super excited to announce that my coffee table book, Flip Through My Flaps, an Exploration of the Volver, is finally, after seven years in the making, available for purchase and next week I will personally be packing each and every order from where it's printed in Melbourne, Australia. It's something that I'm so proud to be able to
put out into this world. The book aims to raise awareness of vulver diversity and it really breaks down the stigma surrounding women's health. It features the photographs and stories of over five hundred women, and it really dives into a range of readily important topics, from the complexities of our vulver anatomy to open conversations around sexual health, pleasure, motherhood, miscarriages. This book is something that I wish existed when I
was younger. So it was only two weeks before the book went to print that I ended up finding the confidence to do my own vulver photo shoot, and I was feeling self conscious throughout the shoot, and my friend who shot me used the trial print copy of Flip Through My Flaps that we had on us to bring to me and show me that what I was worried about was really normal. So it was really cool seen it out in the world in action and I used
it on myself, which is just amazing. I think that the statistics of people who have genital anxieties now are so large, so I really hope that this book can be used as a resource and a tool to show that we're all unique and that's what makes us beautiful. So yes, I'm very excited to be an author and for this book to be out on the shelves for the world to see. Big love for mom and me.
You're listening to No Filter, the podcast where people speak candidly about their lives and aren't afraid to be vulnerable. I'm me a Friedman and I don't like the word vulver. It's not to say I don't love my actual volver.
I obviously do.
I mean I guess I do. Let's start some cool stuff. I don't think about it that much, to be honest, and that is part of the problem. If you have a volver, for example, did you even grow up calling it that? I didn't. My mum, a feminist, taught me to call it a vagina, and that's the word I taught my own kids their penises and vaginas. Today, you're going to meet a woman who's mad about wolvers. She loves them, and she uses the word at every opportunity.
She's even turned wolvers into a well paid job, and wolvers have made her a little bit famous. So if you've ever thought to yourself, is my vulver normal or what the hell is an out yet, Ellie Sedgwick is here to set you straight. Ellie is a body positive photographer and entrepreneur who found it Comfortable in My Skin, a movement empowering people to love the skin they're in. But Ellie hasn't always felt comfortable with her own volver.
She's gone from being scared to wear swimmers to even considering labiaplasty, and now she drives around the country photographing other women's volvers for her upcoming book, which is going to be called Slipped through My Flaps. I'm not even kidding. Here's Ellie.
Ellie. What did you.
Call your genitals when you were a little girl?
Vagina always called vagina.
So you weren't in one of those families that had cute little nicknames. What did your mama teach you about your vagina?
This makes me feel a little bit sad, but my mom wrote me a message about a year inter comfortable with my skin, and she actually apologized. She said, I'm so sorry that I didn't teach you the correct terminology folver, because I obviously speak about that so much about how we should call it the right thing, and I had just done a post about what do you wish your
parents in school taught you when you were fourteen? Then my mum read her all, and she felt really bad because she's very sensitive, loving lady, and she was like, I'm so sorry that I didn't teach you what all volvers look like and wrote me this big message about it. So she was always very lovely, but I mean, she just didn't call it a volver herself.
Do you remember when you first became aware of it even having one, or that girls and boys had different bits.
I remember the first time I was insecure about it, definitely was in high school and I got a note from someone saying, do you have an Innie or an Audi? After I realized it was Evolver that they were talking about, I realized that mine was maybe different.
Was that note based on anything like It's not like in with no pants?
No, No, It was just this little boy behind me in class and he just scribbled it with pen and tapped me on the shold and gave it to me. And I don't think I was even sexually active then, so it was definitely not aimed at me on purpose. It just was the start of my insecurities.
And I'd never heard that terminology, certainly when I was a kid about the idea of innies and auties.
I grew up on the Northern beaches, and it's very much beach culture. And I served my whole life, and so I was always hanging out with big groups of boys, and I was out the back and were to often hear the chat about the girl's it's like the night before. And I do speak about this a lot. But two of my best friends growing up have had labiaplasty, one when she was sixteen and then again when she was eighteen, and then another one had it when she was eighteen.
And so I think that there was something about the boys we hung out with maybe and the girls that there was like this ideal way that your wolver should look, I mean mine. You can see it when I wear a bikini. And I photographed like, you know, four hundred people now, so I do know I have quite distinct laber and you can see it when I wear a bikini. And there was just like joke said that made me feel really sad growing up.
You said that your friend had a labioplastin when she was sixteen. Was this the nineties or the two thousands? How old are you really?
I'm thirty two, so this was the early two thousands. Yes, So I finished school O seven, so it would have just been a few years before that. She came and showed her mum and said like, why do I look like this? And her mum said, oh, I did as well, and I don't want you to go through what I did, feeling like it was not sexy, blah blah blah, and took her and gave her permission. And she doesn't regret it at all. She's actually happy with her laby a plasty.
But we always laugh and say, imagine if we all had spoken and they only came forward and told me because of comfortable in my skin or else. No one else knows.
Because it's not something that girls spoke about as teenagers.
Not really. I mean, it's definitely changed now. You can look on social media and find so much cool Volver diversity awareness. Yeah, but I think when we were growing up, and probably the same as you, a lot of my friends' mums when I started comfortable with my skin were like, what they all look the same? What are you doing? What do you mean? They all had that kind of response, and I was like, no, they don't.
The first time I became aware of the whole beauty standard around Volvers was and I worked in magazines and I was the editor of Cosmo, and I remember talking to one of the editors of one of the men's magazines in our same company, and he was telling me how they had to always battle with the senses because
they were legally required to. And the wording was extraordinary from the Bureau of Censorship seal the opening to a single slit, a single crease, a single crease, so they had to airbrush any protruding labbya from any image of a naked woman that they showed, and then they didn't disclose this. So my generation didn't grow up looking at poorn necessarily, But we saw naked girls.
In men's magazine except Playboy.
And People and Picture and those kinds of things, And what we never realized was that what we were looking at were not real human vaginas they were in most cases. Rush, Bob, we're going to have to do this a lot. Let's go straight to that.
What I was going to say just quickly about that is that a lot of sexologists, and you see a lot of people talking about this currently saying that porn is the reason why so many people are insecure. But I personally, and this is just speaking from my personal opinion. I'm the same as you. I had never watched porn growing up, and so I don't blame the porn industry. And I think that now especially, there's so much amateur porn.
You can find anything online, and so I don't actually think that that's where a lot of the insecurities are coming from.
Where do you think they're coming from?
Well, I think for me it was like not seeing other ones, and then, like you said, the ones that I did in Playboy or anything had been edited and photoshopped. And then maybe the few because I'm very bisexual, I've never been straight. Maybe the few girls that I was sleeping with when I was starting to explore had that kind of design of vagina, so they'd call it Barbie. That's how my journey went. That was the kind of wolvers that I first saw.
Tell me about the word ellie, I can't say it. I just don't like it.
Volva, you don't like it.
And I've been pulled up on this for so many years now, and I call them the Vulva police police, the Vulvar police of which you are a proud card can remember. Tell me why I don't like the word elie.
I don't know why you personally don't like it, but it took me. I've been capturingvolvers for four years now and it took me about three is to start saying it. And then now I can't not pick up on it, Like if I hear anyone say it's just I think because my whole world is pussy, just like vulva, vulva, vulva, and so I'm so in tune with it. As soon as someone says, for Janah, it just tingles me. I'm like, it's vulva. It makes me angry because there's such a big lack of education.
Well, yes, I know how I thought that volver was the name for labbia or for your slushy bits, like to me, it's a very fleshy word. Yeah, but can you explain the difference between a vagina and revolver for those who are playing at home?
While the vaginas the canal, so it's you know, where the inside the inside, yes, can't see it from the outside. Hampon goes in, babies come out, toy baby comes out, yeah, and then the volvers everything on the outside. And so so many people are using the wrong terms, having no idea and that's because we're not educated on our bodies, that part of our body, Like we just missed out on that. There's so much information on penises and everything else, but just not volvers.
So it's like as if we were calling a penis a scrotum, yeah, or testical.
Exactly why is.
That misinformation there? Because that's a bigger question, isn't it. Why did I grow up with a feminist mother who was very much about his the name that we call it because that's what it's called. And I had an argument with one of my best friends. We both had daughters, and we were in a shop trying clothes and I had a really short skirt and I said, oh goodness, you can almost see my vagina, which you would have
corrected me on. But she got angry at me because her daughters in their family, they called it a wink. And so her little girl, who was I can't remember five as the time, was skipping down the street going vagina vagina, and she's like, thanks so much for that, and she was really angry at me, and I'm like, it's important that she learns what it's actually called.
It's a body part, and also talking about it normally. Like my dad said this when I started comfortable in my skin. He was like, talk about it like it's
a body part, because that's what it is. And when you make things weird and nickname me, then it feels like you're being naughty talking about it, when actually it's just a beautiful part of our bodies, like our breast, and it's something that we should treasure and love and feel connected to, so we should be allowed to talk about it in the right way.
He used to be a preschool teacher.
I did.
It's quite the career trajectory you cash to becoming evolver photographer.
Oh, speak to me about Everyone's always like what did the moms say? And what does your boss say? And I'm like, I'm very open with everything I do. And it's so hilarious because all the mums would pull me aside one by one to be like, I want to be photographed, but don't tell the other mums, so you do both. I don't so much. I mean, I do steal nanny a lot of travel nanny, so I sometimes go back and drop into it because I do genuinely
love hanging out with kids. It's so much fun. But I do prefer hanging with the vulgar naked people capturing the volvers.
Who was the first volver that you saw other than your own?
The first volver I ever saw was Ella, my best friend, and we were quite best friend with benefits, with benefits, yeah, and so yeah, i'd say hers is the first I saw. We had a lot of fun, and what did you think? I remember thinking like, why does mine not look like hers? That's what I remember thinking. And then hers looked like a Barbie doll that I'd always played with when I was younger, and I was like, oh my gosh, I've
got too much skin down there. Yeah, let's say that's where a lot of the insecurity start.
Thanks Ella, But you didn't say anything to Ellen. Was Ella the one that got the surgery?
No?
No, no, okay, So you didn't say anything to Ella and she didn't say anything to you. No.
Well, this is the problem with volvers is because it's such a taboo topic. I never told anyone except for my sister. And then I went traveling around in my early twenties around Europe, and I came back and I remember sitting in the park with Nicki and I was crying and sister. Yeah, because I just slept with someone and I was like, what if they tell what I
look like? And I was like really upset. I used to do this thing, but I would honestly cry with people when I was sleeping with them, so sad for the person I was sleeping with, because I'd be like, what's wrong with it? It's so sad for you because you were self conscious. I was so self conscious of my volver. And so then NICKI said to me, there's this thing called Laba plusty, and I think you should get it because it's been so long now of you
being worried about this part of your body. And so that's when my road led down to going to cosmetic sessions in Sydney and it's so concerning. They don't even look at your body. They were just like, when can we book you in? And yeah, this is the price. Because I was young, they were like, maybe you can get under medicare. It's eight centimeters long. We can help you get it cheaper.
How old were you I must have.
Been early early twenties. And then when I went to finally have the surgery done, I went to India because I used to babysit in India on and off for six years, and the doctor I couldn't talk properly. I was just calling it like liposuction and pointing down like.
You were calling it liposuction. Yeah, when your sister Nicki, First of all, I don't have a sister. Do sisters look at each other's volvers?
Nicki was the best best big sister you could ever ever have. She was so beautiful. She just always showed me hers and as looked exactly the same, and she was like, who cares? Like who cares what the people think? And she did surf boat rowing, and she was like, you can see my outline when I'm in a bikini. She just said she never cared all the time.
And what about your mum.
Mom's not a newdicist as such, so she was never walking around the house nage. She talked to her about it though, No, which is weird because as soon as I lost my Virginia, I told her. I told her everything, But for some reason, I never told he about my insecurities.
So your sister didn't want to get labiaplasty herself. No, Nicky obviously knew that it existed, yes, and suggested it to you little did you know one of your friends had or two of you. I had it by that stage.
Yeah, And so then I ended up in this horrible situation with a cosmetic surgeon in India and he was like, with a yellow highlighter drawing on my legs because he thought I wanted my legs like it's actually I was going to.
Say, I don't think I'm learning a lot already about well my bolvaries, but I don't think it involves my legs.
And then he said after a while, I was very awkward, and I said, I mean, like here, not my legs at all. And so that's when like this hilarious moment happened that I speak about all the time. He went and got a mirror that's a circle, and he brought over to my face and made me put my teeth forward and showed me that for the same price as lavio plasty, I could have my jaw line fixed with a chin extension. And he was like, everybody sees your
face and only people you love seeing your vulva. And I was like, ugh, but yeah, I went in with one insecurity, came out with two.
Did you leave?
And I got yellow post its with all the prices, like of what a chin extension would cost, and what laby PLASTI would cost, and how long the bruising would be if I had to go back to work for a chin extension, all this weird stuff. And like me and my best friends we always send each other double chin self. These were like constantly doing that. So I remember later telling them like, oh my god, I almost got a chin extension. They're like, why would you change your face?
You know?
So it's kind of like, why would I change this? Why would I change this? It's just me.
So you walked out of there with some post it notes, yes, but nobody alteration.
Nobody alterations, which it is make you think again? Made me think again? He said to me, have you seen other volvers? Because I don't think you need this surgery. And I think I'm quite a natural, earthy girl, you know, I love I see beauty in everyone. And I think I was quite shocked that I would had even considered doing my face. I don't know. I just think it was lucky that he put so much pressure on, like fixing everything.
Wow. So it's like what he restored to you and your self esteem about your volver. He tried to take away with your face, but you just didn't pick up what he was putting down.
Yeah, I did not at all. And I also picked up where he was like you need to go and see others, and.
So then like you need to go and see other volvervolvers.
Yeah, this idea started where I should photograph heaps and like, it's really interesting because a lot of my girlfriends remember me one night at pizza and manly being like, oh, you know, like how cool would a book like this be? And this was like years before I started, but they
didn't know about my insecurities. And then when I actually did this Facebook post in twenty eighteen saying I'm going to create a coffee table book flip through my flats and I'm going to photograph five hundred volvers, and they were like, I remember you talking about this for years, but I never made it about me. I was just like, how cool would that be? Just to see real you was still uncomfortable. I was still very uncomfortable, and is that when people started to go, oh, actually, yeah, that
would be really cool. I'd love to see what other ones look like. But then you heard like also the jokes as well that were quite nasty.
Do you think that the word flaps? Can we reclaim that.
I have actually made jokes on my social media and gotten messages from people that I photographed being like, I don't find this funny. And if I'm a part of your work trying to change the narrative of how we joke about volvers, then I don't want my photos in it if you're going to do that. Social media is a very tough world. There's a lot of opinions.
Where did you stand on that?
Where did you I took the post down that i'd done, and I apologize, you know, I mean I photographed this person's well where she was so open to me, and I was like, if this has personally offended you, I will take it down immediately. But I do push the boundaries a little bit, I think because I find humor helps for me, and I think it's like you can say funny things as long as you just talk it. I talked about all taboo topics and I drop a bit of humor in so that it's comfortable for everyone.
Do you remember the first man who saw your FOLV?
I do, so this guy wasn't the first, but this is so long ago that it was on MSN, but his brother messaged me saying that his brother said my vagina looked like a track had run over it. I was really young, and so I think that plays a huge.
That would have been devastating.
Yeah, it was devastating, and I just remember sitting there being so insecure, and I held onto that comment forever for sure.
When did you finally let go of the idea of getting labiaplasty.
Actually, I'm very anaphylactic to seafood and I had a very bad reaction not long ago, and I went in to see a doctor in Bondi and the guy was telling me about all the things he can do. He was like, I do botox, I do laba plastic and I was like, I just need medicine to make my eyes not so swollen. I said, I can't get other things. I have this single comfortable in my skin. And he said to me, I'd do laby a plasty for you, because he wasn't listening, and I was like, no, Like,
I can't get labyo plasty. And now even if someone paid me, I would never get it because I've worked so hard to have the relationship I have now with my volver and like, I masturbate constantly, and I realized how many nerve endings are in there, and it's such a great pleasure too for yourself to feel good, and I would just never change it now.
Never are there nerve endings in there?
Tell me in your laby er?
Yeah, what does our laby you do? Well?
There's all sorts of funny memes, like obviously I'm a meme queen, and there's always the ones that say, like we've got eight thousand nerve endings. If you're going to get on a woman's nerves, get on them.
You know.
There's all these like hilarious ones. But there's so much pleasure down there. And if you go and see a sex sologist, for example, if you're feeling insecure of your LaBier, they might teach you how to massage you're inner labyer a certain way so that it feels really good, and to try and connect with it that way instead of like chopping it off to fit society's idea of what
a beautiful volver should look like. So there's all these great masturbation techniques and tools that I talk about in photo shoots and workshops with people to try and help them connect with their bodies rather than hate them. Because my body still looks exactly the same as it did when I had my big insecurities, and all that I've changed is my mind, the way I think and connect
with my body. So it's like I am a living example that you can change the way you feel without changing it under the knife.
That's incredibly profound and applies not just to our volvers, but to all aspects of ours, doesn't it physically all the things that we focus on what's wrong with ourselves instead of seeing what's right, I mean thinking about it.
I need to photograph so many people a week, and every single time they have a different story, there is always something I hate this. I hate this, I hate this, like people find so many things on their bodies to hate.
How did you start photographingvolvers?
So the first I ever photographed, I put up that post on Facebook. She was a midwife and she said to me, this is so crazy. I watched these mother's birth babies and they're not letting their partners stand at that end of the bed because they don't want to see their volvers or their vaginas, and they make them stand up here and She's like, this is something I'm so passionate about. So it was really cool that the first person who came forward, I was so awkward photographing her.
I was like, got her to stand still and just photograph her and then she was like, no, baby, you need me laying down with my legs bread like you need to get right in there.
Wow.
She's like, this is the part that people are self conscious of. For me, I was more self conscious standing up because my labya goes down and so that was like my personal thing that I wanted to see. But she was like, this is what most people are self conscious of.
Did you just do it with an iPhone?
My dad actually showed me a camera. My dad's a photographer, teacher, and a photographer helps a lot. And he was really funny because he has a stall at the local shops on the Northern Beach. It's a pop up store, and he said like people were coming in constantly being like, oh, love what Ellie's doing. Love what Ellie's doing. Love what Ellie's doing. And so he ended up actually understanding why I was doing it, and then he felt quite sad because he was like, we nurtured you with so much love.
We were constantly like you're so beautiful, you know, and he was like, I just can't get my head around how you felt so insecure. And he was like, I want to take you out for breakfast. So we went out for a beautiful meal, and he was like, if you explain to me from the start to the end of why you're doing this, I will give you like five photography lessons for twenty minutes a day a week. But I want you to get like a lawyer to protect yourself so that no one can ever you know,
it's like risky business what I'm doing. I've got so many private photos of so many people. And so Dad just got down to logistics and was like, I'll help you. And then he said, but I want you to become a good photographer. Don't want you to be an amateurer. He's like, I want people to love the photos that you take of them.
Interesting what your parents said, because it's something that a parent can't really reassure you about. Like your dad telling you you have a beautiful volver and you're a little girl is just not.
I think, because he's so earthy and canoes and ab sales and you know, hates makeup and that kind of stuff, and he's just thinks every single person on this earth is beautiful. Like every time I have a friend over, he's like, oh, you guys, looks so beautiful, even if we're in our pajamas, Like he does not see ugly in the world.
For women, we learn about our bodies, unfortunately by comparing them to other women's bodies, or by watching how other people react yes to our bodies.
Yeah, and then of course, like you and I have said, women so many times, but there's just people with wolvers. It's a whole big world. We've got to Chinese the right names for everything.
And well that's a very conversation because there are women who have evolvers, and then there are non binary people who volvers.
So I'm trying to include all of them in the project as well. Photographed two transgender women and it's incredible hearing their story. So the first transfer one a ever photographed came over at nine am and I told her that the photo shoot was going to finish it too, and she was having the best day of her whole life, like she could not leave my house. She was like just one more minute, like one more shoot, one more shoot because she was so proud of her vulver and
she just had the surgery. And most time when I photographed people, they apologize. They're like, oh, I'm sorry if I smell or I'm sorry if I'm sweaty. And she was just standing there pointing to me and like, how beautiful is it? How beautiful is it? How good does it look?
Like?
Capture me l like this? Capture me like this? She was so proud of her vulver.
I'm mea Friedman and you're listening to No Filter with Ellie's Sedgwick. When people come and book in to have their vulver photographed, is there a commonality in why they come.
There? Is there usually?
Is?
It's very often a comment that's been said in high school. That's why eventually, once I bring out the book and everything,
I want it in high schools. And I would love to personally go and speak to high school students because I'm like, you don't know the damage you're doing to people, Like it doesn't have to even be about the volvers, but I just want to get in there and be like, be kind, because one comment that's a throwaway in the bedroom can ruin someone's life forever and their sex life, which is so important and it should be something that
should be celebrated. So yeah, it's often a comment. And then there's about ten topics that people come forward for. So there's obviously, like I mean, I say obviously because I'm so used to it, But do you know what vaginismus is?
Very well, I don't have it, but there are many women that I work with who have vaginismus.
Yes, So the first time I ever photographed someone with vaginismus was actually my pa Jasmine. And it's often got a lot to do with a religious background or religious upbringings, or shame around sex or trauma. So her in particular was a religious upbringing, and so then the night of her wedding when she went to have penetrate sex with her husband, she couldn't get it in and just called them muscles. It was just closed. So you can't put in a tampon, cu gumba, whatever you want to put in.
Their hurts so much. They often say it feels like burning. But the thing is she'd heard that sex was painful, and so they kept trying and trying to trying, and because there's no education about vaginismus or hardly any education about what sex should be like at schools. No, it's changing, for sure. It used to just be like, don't do it.
And so she tried for ages and then went to see a pelvic floor therapist, which if you're having painful sex, go and see someone because they can help you so much.
They use little dilators to put.
Tiny ones in and then teach you how to relax the muscles in your vagina.
How would you find one of those?
You can reach out to me and I can connect you to people, for sure, But go see your local GP and they'll connect you.
Women come to you because they've got vaginismas.
And the chat too, well, every single photo shoot, I say like why are you here? And then after a while, because I've been doing it for so many years now, I have found out how many different topics there are. And then what I do is I create a support network group on Instagram for all these topics. So, like lynchin'sclerocious back to your vaginosis reoccurring thrush herpes, I just created my fortieth herpees group chat. I have a group chat for literally everything.
What do you mean?
So if someone comes to me in a photoshoot and says like, I have reoccurring thrush. I just cannot get rid of it. I'm like, okay, great, I've got like five groups on Instagram of people that have the exact same problem. So I can put you in there and you can talk about what helped, maybe natural remedies.
So you're like the Volver whisperer or the Vulva matchmaker, like the match on the roof, but with volvers. Yeah.
Well, I have the most engaging Instagram you've ever met in your life, Like it just never ever, ever stops. And so I have so many people that feel comfortable in that space. And every day I get a message being like I've just been diagnosed with general or herb is is a very common one, but whatever it is, they know that. I'll be like, oh, no worries, I've got a group for that. It's like a joke on my Instagram.
So we could have come to you to be photographed, like because they've got a recurring thrush or yeah I hope he's diagnosis.
And they might just want someone to talk to about it. And so when I do a photoshoot, I have six people in every group, and so they it's.
A group experience.
It's a group experience.
How did that come about? Because I imagine at first you only did one volver at.
A time, and then I was trying to teach at the same time, and I'd have one day off a week, and so then I was like, would have so many people wanting to book in? It's high demand. You would never expect it, but I have so many people try to book in. And then I started realizing that when I was putting in two or three girls or people together, they would be like, oh, yeah, this has happened to me, and then this has happened to me, and then they'd
be like, I did this to solve that. And so I was like, this is so beautiful watching people connect and share their stories and what healed them. And so I started being like, it's actually better when there's a bigger group.
And when they get to the photoshoot, are people naked in front of each other? Some people more shy, Like you must have noticed the way things tend to go, like do people start off shy and then walking around with my pants?
So I can, pretty much without exaggerating, tell you that every single photoshoot I've ever done. Someone has messaged me being like, I don't want to be naked in front of someone else. Can I go into another en to do my shoot? And I always say yes. And then it's not just like they come in and they get naked, like we usually do two hours worth of workshop activities and then after that, I say, okay, who wants to
be photographed first? And then that person has never kept their clothes often put them back on, like and so it's every single photo shoot they come back naked and they all stay naked. And I can't explain how I do it, but I create a very safe space and it's a slow process, and no one has ever put their clothes back on for the end of the workshop. They love being naked. They storm around my house, little venue, whatever I've rented, and.
They just love my parts.
Yeah, and they're showing each other like, look at this mole on my lady, are this is what I'm self conscious for. Last week we had a girl showing us her buttthole because she had a skin tag and everyone was right in there.
Wow, how interesting, Because I guess men see other penises from when they're young, like you know, I mean, boys are always pulling them out when they're little and then you know, wing outdoors or in a urinal or in a you know, group shower whatever after sport. But for women, I haven't ever seen a real life volver up close.
Yeah, they love looking at each other's after the photo shoots. They're always very happy to do that, which is so beautiful. Sometimes I let boys come. Sometimes people are like, my partner wants to come, is that okay? And I'll check with the group and if it's okay, then a partner group would say it's okay for it's group, or if it's like people that know each other, and then they're like, can I bring my partner?
I wish people could see my face. My face is just like okay, So I'm getting my volve of photographed and then there's gonna be other people there that I don't know, and I don't know the photographer, and also someone's bringing their partner, no problem.
It hasn't happened for maybe two years that a partner's come, but there was a while there where people were like, can I bring? But also some men are just beautiful and want to learn anat of me, and they I have men reach out to me being like, I love what you do and if I can be part of it in any way, shape or form, I absolutely will.
So I think it's really natural for us to lead down this path where we're like, oh, they just want to see, but sometimes boys do just want to learn, and like a lot of the stuff I teach is like, you know, connecting with your pussy and having good sex isn't about technique. It's about being comfortable. It's why it's
called comfortable in my skin. And so many guys are like, I want to learn to be a better Ellie, and I'm so happy to spend time with them and teach them what I know, because you know, I feel like I do have a world of knowledge and I want to share it. So men shouldn't be able to miss out on that too.
That's so true. And you know, I think that your book is going to be so brilliant because I was going to say, as mothers, how do we teach our sons and our daughters, Yeah, that the volvers that they see in porn, which they're going to see a lot of, yeah, are not necessarily natural. They've often been surgically enhanced or else. The women who go into porn are more comfortable because they look a certain way. How do we teach our kids about the diversity of exposure, like.
What you said in a safe way. So when I lived in Manly, I had all the photos printed out on polaroids and they were along every single bit of my wall, like there was just volvers everywhere. And obviously, because I had said to you before, I'm a preschool teacher and I would nanny all the time, and I would always speak to the mums and be like, you just have to know that if your child comes to my house, they're going to see a whole lot of volvers.
And I've had so many beautiful experiences with kids that are like eight, being like, look, this one's hairy, Like what color pubes do you think you'll have? And they love it. They giggle and they're like, oh my gosh, like I've got red hair. I've got this beautiful video of this girl and she has red hair and her mum has red hair, and she says, I think I'm going to have red pubes like my mom, and her mom was like cuddling her, I should show you the video.
It's so gorgeous, goodhou And so I just think it's like normalizing it in a really safe space. Yeah, and just like leaving flips through my flaps on the coffee table for them to look at when they're ready, and maybe when they're alone and they feel comfortable and they want to just flip through it. That's what I needed when I was younger. I'm just creating what I think would have helped me.
When you talk to straight men about volvers, what do they tell you? It depends if they're alone or in a group, or it depends on life speak about that.
I think that when they're one on one, they're often like, wear's the G spot was all the pleasure points? Like, so they want to know. They want to know better how they can pleasure a girl more. Definitely, they're very inquisitive, and so that's when I'm sort of like, well, it's all about communicating because I can speak for what feels good for me, but I'm not going to be able to speak for what feels good for the next person
you sleep with. So I love having these kind of conversation with my male friends just to be like it's okay to ask, but you know, sometimes they don't even know what to ask for. So are you by it all or am I yeah?
No, no, no, no, it's not yet.
I noticed when I have sex with a woman compared to when I have sex with a man, it's so different.
In what way is it different?
For example, my ex and I, when we had sex, it would be like a four hour magic thing of like you know, it wasn't even four play four play was the sex like we would.
Have sounds very tiring, Alli, No, no, but.
We'd have oils. We'd be blindfolded, for example, and we'd have oils just smelling them and like putting them behind our ears and have amazing zick plane and like starting with the body massage. And it was a huge like tease. And then I find when I have sex with men, not all men, they're on top. I'm bam, thank you, Ma'm roll over, go to sleep, not after care. Whereas with a woman. Hate to generalize, but we're lay in bed kissing for so long after either of us has orgasm,
be like, you know, debrief, how is that for? You did that feel good? I loved it when you did that. And then the next day, oh my gosh, remember when you did that? It felt amazing And the communication just feels so much better. So I love explaining this to my straight male friends, being like, talk more, ask what they want, Like, You're.
Right, because I was gonna ask. In straight sex, the male orgasm is kind of like the definitive end point usually, or that certainly was often we've been led to believe, you know, in everything that we've always seen in popular culture. But in sex between two women, it's not that.
Absolutely, it's no endpoint, and once you've orgasmed, you can still I don't know why, but when I have sex with the guy again, I'm just speaking from me personally, they so often just finish and they're done, and I'm not even close to done, because as a volver owner often we take out way longer time to climax and it's like they just don't even care about your pleasure, and I'm like, hey, I'm not at all finished, you know. And so so many people think that they can't orgasm.
I have groups for that as well. They tell me all the time like I've never had an orgasm, and I'm like, well, that's sad, that's sad, and you can. There's nothing wrong with you. Sometimes people do find it really hard, but I truly believe that we can all have really great, pleasurable sex. And sometimes it's not done in the way that you see in porn. It's done in like really slow, gentle activating all the senses or you know, whatever's your blue erotic print, like maybe kinks
what works for you or senses. You know. It's just everyone has a different way to get off and you just need to find what it is.
I wanted to ask you how if there's a difference in the way queer women and straight women feel about their volvers, because I interviewed Sophicacia and she had a labiaplasty. She was always very conscious of her labia. She hadn't seen any other labia except her sisters because she'd have bards and she had three sisters and they didn't have outias, and she did, and she was always self conscious and it was uncomfortable when she was wearing clothes or riding
a bike. And she said, now that she's queer and she's seen a lot more volvers, yeah, she wishes she hadn't done it because she realizes that she wasn't as quote mark abnormal as she thought.
This is exactly what I said to you. It's just a lack of seeing them. Like it's not even if you're queer or straight. It's like how many you've seen in my opinion, Like that's why I just plus this everywhere, like go on my website, look at it. I don't know.
I had someone do something credible for me once. They said to me after the third time we'd had sex, like why are you so self conscious of your vulva or I think he said pussy and I was like, I'm not and he was like, no, you are, Like you stand with your hands like covering your pussy in the shower, and you walked backwards to the bedroom and dropped your towel like you've put yourself in so many positions so I can't see you. It didn't matter if it was a boy or a girl that did this
to me. It's just someone that's like self aware.
I was going to say, very self aware that he's.
And aware of like the person that he was sleeping with. And I just like cried more than I've ever cried in my life, and he was like, let me just see what you look like. And for me, that was so healing. And so I think it's kind of like if you're lucky enough to sleep with someone that's having conscious, lovely sex and that wants to be there and wants to make you feel good. And then he went to so much effort to make me feel like beautiful because
he could realize I was self conscious. And then following that, I have had really nice partners that are women that do similar things. And so I just think it doesn't matter if you're straight or gay, it's just whoever you're sleeping with, trying and sleep with people that are lovely if you can.
The people you know who've had labiaplastis, have you photographed them?
One I have, but she doesn't want it to go in the book. She was like, this is purely a thing for you and me, and that's fine. Like often I photograph people and they're like, I don't want this to go anywhere. This is like a pure healing process for me. That's almost like delete the photos. It's the process of having them taken that is the healing for them. Yeah, exactly. And then the other one, she's very keen to be photographed,
but I just have not got round to it. But she's still very very self conscious, even though she's had the surgery, still hasn't had an orgasm at thirty two and thinks it's because of cutting off the nerve endings. But I've told her I as my own opinion, I don't think it's that because I know people that have had labiaplasty that can still orgasm. I just think that she is in like fight or flight motes still and she can't let go, and an orgasms all about letting go.
I should have asked you what people want to do with the photos.
A lot of them are proud to be part of the change that I'm creating, and everyone's got a different thing. Like so I give a poloid at each photo. Shit, So so many times people send it to me and they're like, it's next to my bed, or they keep it in their wallet as like a self empowered they give it to a lover, they frame it. It's pretty cool. Actually,
I have got come from my skin tattooed on me. See, and there's six people in the world now that have come to my skin tattooed on them, and so they're just like comfortable. My skin just represents like confidence and love for yourself. So I think it's the same with the vulb or they like carry it around the vulb of photo and they're like, whenever I feel like I'm not good enough or I'm ugly or different, I can look at this and be like, no, I'm beautiful.
Just finally, if someone's listening to this and they might be feeling very emotional because maybe they feel really self conscious about their volver and maybe they didn't even realize how it was impacting their sex life or how they felt about themselves, what should they do? What are some of the tangible things that they can do? I think talk about it. I'm a huge to who audy.
You can come to me. I put you in one of the groups message me. I mean I do this constantly. Every single day. Someone reaches out and says like I've just found you through this, like I've spent a whole life in hiding. I can't not even my husband of blah blah blah like seeming naked like, and I always try and then help them. It is getting harder because it's corresting like.
An angel on Earth, because that's a lot of unpaid work for you.
It's a lot of unpaid work, which is something that I'm navigating right now is that there's not enough of me to do the work I'm doing. But I do have a lot of groups where it's like these people are all self conscious of their volver and so I pop them in there and then I try and give like group advice and say this is what helped me, this is what you can do.
And if someone wanted to get their volve a photographed, You're probably are booked out, aren't you.
I'm onto us, so you can message me again and just see where I'm at right now. I'm in Tasmania. I flew in today straight off the playing to you maya very honored and then I head to I'm going all around Australia, so wherever you are. I do small towns, big towns do so many events events, yes, so each town. I mean I usually do like a dominate Trix event. What's that, Well, it's when everyone comes dressed in leather or as a dom but you can wear just all
black if you want. And then I bring in dominate tricks who teach different kinds of play because maybe you didn't even know you were into kink. You just haven't been opened up to the world. So we all have different levels of what's like kinky for us. It doesn't mean it's like has to be like painful play. It can be something in your mind that you find naughty. So I love teaching people different ways that they can
have kink play. So I do that through hiring dominatrix, and then we might have someone come in and teach the art of seduction. Everywhere I go, I fly in different people to teach someone something that's maybe a little bit taboo but could help their sex life or their sexuality a lot.
You're amazing, You're amazing. When's the book going to be out? And how can we support your work from the outside if perhaps we don't want to have our own volvers photograph, but we want to help support what you do.
So the book I have actually got enough folvers to bring out a book right now. But there is no diversity in this book. I do not know why I am struggling so much to get women of color, bigger women, elder women. I'm just seem to be photographing white bossie gal and so I do so many call outs. And not long ago, I went up to someone on the beach, this beautiful black woman, and I tried to explain her in a really nice way, and then I never heard back from her. She didn't check kindly to that, and
I was like, I'm never doing that again. I'm just like I I was so so innocent. I was just like, you know, if you want to just come and have your breast photograph or just like even do an interview on your sex like on my page, I'm just trying so hard and I'm not getting any diversity, all right.
So anyone who is perhaps a woman of color.
Yeah, I would love to do. Someone who has had female jes FGMFGM genital mutilation. I would love to meet someone like that to share that kind of story. Or you know in countries where they pull the LaBier, they want it longer, you know, just a different kind of story. And until there is a representation of every single person in this world in my book, I will not bring my work out.
Ellie was such a joy to chat with, and I really want to try and help her finish the book. So if you are interested in being photographed, especially if you have one of the folvers that she hasn't yet photographed for inclusion in her book, or if you just want to support her work more broadly. There's a link in the show notes, and there's more of my conversation
with Ellie for Mum and Maya subscribers. We've kind of done a bit of like a sealed section version of this conversation if you're old enough to remember magazine sealed sections. We talked about a fairly detailed explanation of how Ellie achieved the best orgasm of her life. We talked about vibrators, about sex. Take a listen, here's a little bit.
This one night, I was watching my reflection and I was dat sing and I was like touching myself. I wasn't intentionally trying to have an orgasm, but I ended up having the most transformative, back arching, like couch grabbing orgasm of my probably my life. And it was because I had been doing the mirror work.
And there's a link in the show notes to hear the rest of that bonus episode right now. This episode of No Filter was produced by GM moylan and the executive producer he lies Ratliffe. See you next week, Hm,