Jackie-O On What She Wishes She'd Known About Divorce [re-release]

You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hey friends. Earlier this week, you may have listened to my conversation with Jackie O and her friend and manager Jemma O'Neil, where we spoke about Jackie's addiction, how she got into it and how she got out of it, and how a phone call to Gemma really changed her life, and how that friendship.

Saved her life.

I think you'll also enjoy listening to the conversation I had with jack just a few months before this, where we talked about really different things like divorce, dating, and money. It was a fascinating conversation. Have a listen, hope you enjoy. Jackie O is on the dating apps at forty eight years old and single after her second divorce. You wouldn't expect someone as famous, as successful, as rich, and as powerful as Jackie O to be on Hinge, and yet

To really love this conversation.

Jack I should probably know my first question, do you not? No?

I know?

And I don't have notes in front of me.

Good.

We are delayed by a week? Yeah, because can I say why you cancel last time? Yeah?

My fault?

Actually, So I went away to Western Australia to swim with the whale sharks and stupidly did not put sunscreen on and I broke out in I reckon about nine cold saws on my lip, and the morning I was like, oh God, do you guys film this.

And put it online? And You're like yeah, and oh no, it looked ridiculous. So we postponed, it didn't we.

And it's interesting because radio and podcasts didn't used to be filmed, I know, and that's one of the things I loved about them, and I've heard you say recently. Now it's more like TV. Now you've got to do your hair makeup before you come in. What's that transition been like for you.

It's been a slow one, which is good because it didn't happen overnight, so they'd film little bits here and there.

But I agree.

I used to love radio because you didn't have to worry about what you look like, and now it is pretty much doing a TV show every day. You have to be mindful that it's going to be on camera. It's going to be on all your socials and people are going to see it, and people comment, people comment, they love to have a say, and whilst that should never drive the fact that you want to be presentable, it does.

In the back of your mind.

You're just like, I better do my hair today, Like I look like a wreck people are going to see now. So it's changed so much, but it's been a really gradual progression over the years, with radio being an anonymous to now completely front and center.

Yeah, how has that changed your getting ready routine in the morning. I mean, I know, if I's obsessed with asking breakfast TV and breakfast radio presenters what time you get off and what your routine's.

Like, I knows the number one question.

I'm going to be Betty basic. So let's get that out of the way.

So four AM, and the routine is very quick. Actually it's usually half an hour max, I'd say, just to kind of blow dry their hair real quick and put some makeup on, So it's not too bad.

I guess before it was maybe five five ams, so.

It's added an extra hour.

Well, I've also moved further away, so that doesn't help. So we've stuck on a little bit of time needed. So the alarm, unfortunately, is now going off with four.

Why do you have to drive to the studio? Why can't you do it from home?

You can, and it's there ready to go in the bedroom. I've got a little office to the side. But you just don't feed off the energy of everyone around you in our office. We just have a great team and it's very different, really feel that kind of disconnect when you're at home. So Kyle and I hate doing it from home. But if we have to, we will. If I've slept in or he's sick, we can do that, but we would much rather not.

You've had an amazing year, You've launched a whole new business. How are preparations going for Gwyneth Riving?

Well, they're good.

Actually, we're really sort of deep diving and in the process. Actually this weekend, jem and my bestie and I are going all in and really nutting out how we want it to kind of be formatted and where we want to go with it. I mean, we know we want to touch on a lot of things because she's such an interesting woman. She's had this incredible career in Hollywood, and she's grown up in Hollywood. She's had very high profile romances and marriages, and then she's built this empire

What's it like dealing with someone who is at that level of fame in terms of the people around her, what's required.

It's actually been so easy with Gwenneth. We asked her what her rider was and or we got back was bottled water.

That was it? Nothing else? Does she want nothing?

I know, it's almost yeah. I think the story is that there is nothing. But I was surprised. She's very low maintenance. She is really keen to wear an Australian designer on stage, and there's really been not much else. Everything's been smooth sailing with her and her people, which is I mean for our first one, we got lucky.

I think.

I'm sure down the track we'll have some bumps along the road, but this one's been very very easy.

Why start a business, I don't know.

I think for me it's something I've always had in the back of my mind that I don't just want to always have only radio. Radio can't be the only thing that defines me because one day that's going to end, and who am I. I think a lot of people struggle with their identity when they've had a very long lasting career that they love and that they're passionate about.

It had to be the right thing.

And I think working with my best friend, who I've worked with before, so I know.

We work really well together, this just seemed perfect.

To be honest, I've been thinking about you and partnerships because you're obviously so inextricably linked with Kyle and now Gemma, and I thought that's interesting that when you chose to do your own thing away from Kyle and Jackie oh Brand, you chose to do it with someone else again, not by yourself.

Oh okay, yeah.

No, with besties, because it's the two of them.

Okay.

I feel like I'm talking now to my psychologists. Welcome, I bet you have some good insight on that too.

What that says? Do you know that's true?

And if I'm going to be really honest with you, it would be that I don't have the confidence to do it on my own. And that might be because I've spent years and years bouncing off someone and so it's all I know. So for me to go out completely on my own, Look, could I put this together? Probably not.

I don't have.

The've been hard to call it besties if it was.

Just true, a bit awkward, that's true, that's true.

I don't know.

I think it's just to me. I like collaborating with people. I don't know that I would even enjoy doing it my own. I think I'd be very stressed doing it on my own. And could I do it on my own? I don't think I could. Not this kind of business. Jemma's got so much skill in the business, back end.

Part of it. She studied it. She's got no degrees, so she.

Understands that the numbers, and I've never had to deal with that in my life. I mean, I finished school in year ten and went to Tafe to do a secretarial course and that's it for me.

That's it.

So all I've known really is talking on the radio. So I don't claim to kind of know about business, and I don't know that I would want to do something like that on my own. That just seems a bit overwhelming, to be honest. So I think what works with Gemma and I. She's got that beack end and then I've got the other side that I can bring to the table, and the two work really well together.

What's the difference between being in a business partnership with a guy and a girl? For you, what have you noticed?

I think with Gemma there's more communication.

So every step of the way, when a little problem arises, it's dealt with immediately, as opposed to it building and building and it becoming an issue. I would say that Kyle and I don't let it become a huge issue, but we certainly aren't dealing with it as it happens. And I think there's that really honest communication between Gemma and I, as opposed to maybe sometimes with Kyle and I I will sweep that one under the rug, won't

A lot of famous on air partnerships, either in TV or in radio aren't necessarily off screen or off air what they are on air in terms of their dynamic or in terms of the closeness. How has that evolved with you and Kyle over the years. I'm really curious about that.

Well, there is a definite respect, always there and has been regardless of the different parts we've gone on. Because it's been what twenty three years now working together. Wow, it's a long friendship.

That's longer than most marriages.

Yeah, it is just longer than any marriage I've had.

Yeah, and we connected very quickly. I think after a year we really bonded. We went away to Spain for a work trip and got to know each other really well.

That sounds like we slept together. We didn't.

Was that chemistry ever there? Not chemistry that way, But you know in male female relationships, yeah, it's usually there. Even if it's not there, it's there, you know what I mean.

Oh, I don't know if it was with Carl and I. We had the chemistry of like a best friend would, But I don't think there's ever been any sexual chemistry.

Not from you. What about from him?

Well, I don't know you well, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know if he's joking about it or not. I mean, he says that obviously a lot on air, So he's still say.

And do you feel like he's like a brother, Like is that your feeling towards him, Like he wouldn't care if you farted in front of him or yeah, you brother, You're never try to know exactly.

He's like my big brother, the protector. He's very protective of me extremely. How does that manifest, particularly now that I'm single? It manifestsn't that way like he's got big brother dad. Absolutely, it's hard to get his tick of approval. Put it that way. Yeah, yeah, really hard. So he's funny who is okay with and who is not? But you know, I interrupted you. You said you guys went away and there was no sex, but you had X and then we bonded and then we were so close.

Yeah, and that is when.

It was probably around the time he was about thirty nine, thirty eight, thirty nine, and he just started to hang out in the Cross all the time, and then he was renting this house that just was party after party after party. I can't remember with the timeline, but it was sort of not long after that that I was also trying to feel pregnant, and we just went our separate ways in terms of the closeness that we had,

And Teague and got together. And then now we started to kind of be.

A couple of friends.

Yeah.

Did you guys have judgment for each other's lives back then?

Yeah, totally we did. Yes.

He thought I was so boring and didn't want to know anything about me because I was now a mum.

And I was like, what's happened to you?

Why are you doing all of this? This isn't you Because Kyle was a real homebody. He was a guy from Brisbane who didn't party. He came straight here into a relationship with Tomorrow and he was just not that kind of guy, and so that sort of shocked me. You know, what he was doing. It was almost like this kind of rebellious period. So yeah, we totally had judgment for each other's life.

And were you worried about his health? He was making some pretty dangerous choices and he wasn't a young chicken anymore. Yeah, he was, you know, in his forties and he was not looking well and he was having a lot of time off for ye blood pressure and various things.

Yeah, he was.

He was having a lot of time off, And yeah, of course I was worried about his health, you know, because he's someone who who has picked up those habits at the time later on in life, which is kind of can be scary for men that are hitting their forties and suddenly they start doing that.

When their body isn't used to it.

So I was worried, but you can't say anything, can you, Like, I mean, you can say something, but they don't listen to you.

No, especially if they think that you're just.

Boring one hundred percent.

Yeah, I'm just the boring mum who's you know, not wanting him to have any fun.

There's friend concerned, but then there was also I imagine there would have also been business concern, because it's like, dude, if you can't show up to work every day, or if you're hungover or tired or calling him sick, that impacts on you. Yeah, I mean, I'm the quality.

Of the show or does it?

Yeah?

It does? It definitely does. I mean there's no question we work best when we're together.

I guess I just took it for what it was.

I wasn't too concerned that, oh god, he's going to die and then there's going to be no show.

I wasn't really thinking like that.

I think I was just taking it day to day, and I hate it when he's not there. Obviously, it makes the workload a trillion times harder. Why you're taking on everything yourself, so when you're doing it on air with someone else, you have that time to when the other person's talking, you have your time to catch up like a little bit in your mind. And especially when you're interviewing or anything. You're just so used to having like a little window of ten seconds to catch your breath.

I know that when you've been away, like when you had time off, when you had your long COVID he had guest co hosts. If he calls in sick, does someone step in for him?

Or you have to carry it theTimes we might just these days get a producer to just bounce off.

We used to try and scramble around for people.

We had people like Jewels, lun Bo Ryan with a specific phone. We would buy them and we would just say keep it on your bedside table, always on.

No one will ever call it unless Kyle sick.

And sometimes they didn't answer it because you know, it could be months that would go by and they'd think, oh, no one's going to call on the day we call, they don't have it. So you'd be scrambling at four am to find someone. You'd be calling ev everyone and there's just no one around. And I remember getting calls on the way into work saying what about so and so?

And I'm just thinking, oh god, this, I hate this.

You know, they were my worst so and now we just do a producer and it's just easier that way.

Yeah, because it's there must be so much. I mean, I know, hosting a podcast, the unspoken things that go between co hosts that have been working together for a long time, I guess, like any relationship. But what are the some of the things that you don't realize, the unspoken language between you and Kyle and till he's not there that other people might not know, as in like like the way you'll sort of save each other, or if you're looking at your phone, then he'll go, all right,

Yeah, for sure.

I mean there's many times where Carl might turn off his microphone and start having a conversation with one of the producers. No one will know that, but you just keep going, keep going. He might see that I don't have a question next, and so he knows. I don't even have to give him a look. He just knows when I have a question when I don't. It's just those little cues you pick up from working with someone

But every now and again, all.

You have to do is just give them a very slight look that no one else would pick up on except for them.

My husband and I used to sometimes give it to the looks across the board table, and then one time I was like, you know, other people can see the expression on your face, right, And so you guys used to be able to do that more than I imagine you can now because it's being videoed. Yeah, so if you're like going oh yeah, quiet or.

Wind up like doing the covery, one can see everyone can see it. To be honest, I think most of those times all they hopefully don't include. Hopefully we've got a good editor that cuts those things out. I don't see how our videos a half the time, So who knows what.

Different roles do you guys play in the behind the scenes of the show, because there's a lot of you know, commentary about the roles that you play on the show, and I think it's often falsely said that he dominates or that you somehow enable him. How do you feel about that when people think that.

When it comes to the show, there's things that people would listen to and think, why didn't she pull him up on that?

And I can pull him up on that.

Sometimes I also can see it for what it is, which is Kyle is kidding. And I don't like being a handbreak in life on everything. I do believe our listeners get it, and I think the ones that might tune in for the first time here and there don't. So when he says something it is a joke. Most people know him. For the two percent that are listening that don't understand Kyle's humor, then I'm not going to be the handbreak for just that two percent because hopefully

I just I don't like that style either.

I just have to stay true to if I find it offensive, I will say something If I don't, and I think it's.

Funny because I kind of love politically and correct humor.

I still do to this day, and there's certain things that cross a line, and we're more sensitive to particular topics, which we should be, but I can also appreciate inappropriateness and personally if I find it funny.

I'm not going to pretend I don't.

Have you ever felt resentful of people trying to push you into being the police and being his mum? Like you do that sometimes, but you don't always not consistent, but which means it's genuine. But so have you ever had to say to him, Hey, it's not fair that you always get to say the interesting, outrageous things and I've got to go come on, Kyle, Yeah, yeah, Like, how do you make sure that dynamic doesn't get too entrenched?

I think there are certain times when Kyle he's thinking something off the air, and I know he's saying it to kind of gauge what my reaction is to it, and so there are many times off air that I say no, no, no, you're not going on air and saying that, so I am a lot more of a handbrake off the air because I don't want to stop.

Down and ruin the flow of the show on air.

So I think I subconsciously knows when it might be too far, which is why he runs have passed me in a way off the air. But in terms of playing that role, no, I've never felt pressured to do that, not from anyone I work with, maybe the audience, or maybe when I've been interviewed by someone. I've been asked that many times, but I don't listen to the noise outside of what's happening in that studio and what I feel at that moment.

Up next, Jackie talks pretty candidly about divorce, how it was so different for her second time, the things no one can warn you about, the things she got most wrong, and how she navigates co parenting with a man she's no longer married. To stay with me, tell me about being divorced twice. Divorce, babe, divorce, How is it different being divorced the second time to being divorced the first time?

So so different, very different with Phil. That felt like I guess I was so young when we were together nineteen. I was married at nineteen. Wow ya why I know? So I met him at eighteen and we were married by nineteen.

But I don't understand why I.

Tend to be an all in kind of person.

I love love, and I think when I meet someone a lot of the time I tend to go, oh, you know, I'm a romantic and honestly like, Phil and I were such a great match in many ways. But the unfortunate thing with that was that he was twenty nine going on thirty and I was eighteen going on nineteen, and as a woman, you changed so much in those years. So I think the first marriage to Phil was beautiful and we worked well together.

We got on so well, everything was great.

He wasn't your boss, was he?

No?

No? You together?

We ended up working together in I followed him around. We went from the Gold Coast to Canberra, and then he got another job in Adelaide.

He was an on air present He was an.

Presenter doing the Hot thirty and I was just helping out one night in Adelaide and it all started from there.

He used to call me at home.

I'd come home from I was doing temping work and he used to call me, going, I need you to pretend to be a caller on air because we don't have any callers coming through.

And I used to just be terrified and I'd never get it right.

And he'd always made me go, no, yeah, I have to do it again and this time say this, and I hated it.

I was thinking, who would do radio? This sucks?

And then it happened that I was filling in for someone on the phones one night. But that marriage was really beautiful. But it was like a high school romance. And so when that ended, as painful as it was, it's very different to the marriage that ends when you have children.

How long were you in Fielm married for We were.

Married, So I was married from nineteen through to twenty four.

That's quite a long time for a start of marriage.

For a start of marriage, yeah, I know, but.

You would have been a very different person at twenty four. I was.

I was very different.

Was it a difficult decision to end?

One hundred percent?

Extremely You don't just wake up one day and go, Leah, I know this isn't working. It's something that you think about and you struggle with massively internally, and was.

It because the next logical phase was for you to have kids with him?

You know, we weren't even talking about it that much.

Really, I don't even know that we ever had a serious conversation, which is why I feel like I look back on that and it was very much like this sort of high school sweetheart, you know.

I don't know, I just felt so young and innocent.

Did you feel stigma of being divorced at twenty four?

I don't really care about stuff like that. I don't care what people think or their judgment. I just think you have to live the life that's true for you and what's going to make you happy. So I definitely had family at the time who were really disconnected from me completely because they thought I was making a mistake. They wouldn't come to the wedding, so you know, there was a bit of pushback there.

For sure.

Were those people happy when the marriage ended or they got used to the idea by then?

No, they reached back out once the marriage had ended.

But again, it was just you know, I kind of went from Phil to Lee really quickly. So what was the gap? It would have been maybe eight months. Oh wow, Yeah, yeah, okay, see what I mean, girl, I hear?

Which is my flaw? Ye did meet?

It's something I've learned now. I met Lee when I was out. We were at the Blue Room. Do you remember the Blue Room on Street?

Yeah?

I really do.

And I had just started pop stars. Yeah, it's like a bar that was, yeah, the place to be at the time. And he was British, not here for long, and he had seen me on TV and he's too nervous to come over, so he sent his friend over to buy me a drink. And that was kind of how we met. And I thought it was gorgeous obviously.

And eight months m you single? Fa.

I had a little fling in there with a mechanic that lasted for late two or three months and then yeah it was Lee.

So you seem to be well for that period of your life. You were certainly a monogamous girl like to be in relationships. Yeah, yeah, not a single creature.

Definitely not.

I was that girl that was desperate for another relationship not long after. Yeah, It's taken me a bit of work to get to this point now where I'm not like that anymore.

But I have always been like that.

I mean, how did you get to the point where you didn't just want to jump when things ended with Lee, that you didn't just want to jump back in.

I think once the Lee marriage ended, because I had Kitty, there was so much more to it than just me jumping into a new relationship. There's a lot of pain and there's a lot of healing you have to do after that kind of thing, and I really wanted to focus on Kitty, really really focus on that, because those

So I'm glad I did that.

And then obviously I wasn't feeling great at the time anyway, and as you know, got into a little bit of a rut. And then once I've been out of that, I kind of feel now in a really good place to start dating in a really healthy way too.

You said divorce after a child is very different to divorce before you have kids, And I've also heard you say that people think that divorce will just be a few bad months or ah a year.

Can you talk about the.

Time frame of divorce in the different phases.

I'm so glad you asked that, because I have a lot of friends who are going through that and you don't want to scare them completely. But it is not quick by any means. So the initial period might feel depending on the circumstances. Of course, you might feel some sort of relief in there and you think, Okay, this decision's now been made and we're kind of going our separate ways.

Isn't this great?

And then the reality hits and then you have to start dealing with separating of assets and child custody And it doesn't really matter how great your relationship is. That part is so painful and so triggering for everyone I know who's been.

Through it in what ways Without wanting to probe what parts of that are triggering, what parts of that are painful.

The worst comes out in people, and when lawyers are involved, so you might say certain things within your relationship if we ever split up, I would never do this, I would never ask for this. And then suddenly you're alone with your lawyer, and your lawyer's going you have to ask for this, and so you're hit with those kind of demands and then you feel betrayed and that is incredibly triggering, and you think.

How could they do this, Why do they want this? Or why does she want this?

So a lot of raw nerves hit during that process, because I can understand it. People are like, this is final, this is the last chance of whatever it is that each party wants. But it does hurt, and that part is I've noticed with my friends and myself, is the most difficult part.

And you know that.

I mean the negotiating.

I think the negotiating and working through all that. Then once you're through that, it calms down, and I tell everyone that it does.

Just let it go. You've got to let it go. Once that decision has been made, let it go.

You can't harbor any kind of resentment because at the end of the day, you're going to be co parenting and you want to keep that really coe pathetic. So once you let that go, then the healing starts, and that takes another couple of years. So I would say to anyone going through this, it's a three year process.

Easy.

What about the custody part, because no parent goes into having a child thinking I'm going to see this child part time or half the time or two days a week. Yeah, how did you manage the grief of that when you had to navigate it?

You know, in a way, I tried to look at the bright side of that, which is that when you're at home twenty four to seven with your children or child in my case, a lot of the time, you can be distracted, you can be impatient, you can be on your phone.

And I found that by having.

Kitty fifty percent of the time, I was a better mother than I was having her one hundred percent of the time because I appreciated and value to her presence so much. So I made that count and I think in a way it was.

Actually a good thing. I just tried to.

Look at it from a positive point of view. But it was difficult on the days that I didn't have her. I'm not gonna lie those days you kind of suddenly left on your own, and I think in those moments you can start drinking a little more. You know, you don't have any responsibilities, you're a bit lost, and you either embrace those moments by doing self care, maybe catching up with friends, or you can go the other way and you sit at home alone and then you have

So I had these two lives.

I was living like the good mom, the one that was present and happy and taking her out and doing things, and then there was the other side that was a little bit dark and a little bit lonely.

I remember my husband and Nice put up when our son was about two or three for a few years, and I remember weekends that I didn't have him were weird because it wasn't like being away from your child. If you were on holidays or had to travel for work, that's very different. But when you are in your house and in your city without your child, it just felt odd. It's like a deep sorrow and sadness that I had to get used to in past, but it's like I'm a mother who's not with her child. It felt, Yeah,

Yes, it does pass, you do become comfortable with it and accepting of it. Kitty said to me the other day, she said, I'm so glad you and Dad aren't together. And I was like, oh, why why is that? Because you know, it's not like we were fighting a load in front of her or anything.

She just said, I just get the best of both worlds.

I get all of your time when I'm with you, and then I get all of Dad's time. And I have two bedrooms and I have two of this, and you know, I have these two great lives almost And she thankfully came out the other side really kind of well adjusted and got through it okay. But it was really hard during those times, like adjusting to the alone time and not being there because you're right, it's so different.

I don't know if you're a control freak. Are you a control freeking?

No? Not at all.

Okay, So who carried you? Know? When you were with Lee? Who carried like most of the mental load? Because in my marriage it's for all the house stuff and finances and everything. It's my husband for the emotional state of the kids. It's kind of me. But what was the breakdown like in your marriage and when it ended, what did you have to pick up in terms of mental load?

I would say that in terms of the household running of the household stuff was me and I would say that we were probably an equal mix with the emotional load. I mean, Lee is the most wonderful dad. He really is very hands on and present. And you know, I'm so lucky that I married somebody like that and went through a divorce with somebody like that, because he never tried to make it difficult for me.

He was never spiteful. I was never spiteful.

I just watch other people go through a bitter divorce and oh my god, it makes it that much harder.

Like life is.

Incredibly difficult when you're involved in that kind of toxic relationship.

When kids are weaponized in custody.

That was never the case with us.

And so what did you have to learn to do that you didn't do before?

I just had to call a handyman. What did I have to do? What else did I have to do?

I didn't feel that there was that much of a change, to be honest, in that period. It was more just the little things, you know, those little things where you go, hey, can you.

Deal with this?

Even just little decisions you make, Like I remember one of the first nights I was in that Bondaie apartment that I was renting and Kitty was there and there was a huge humpsman in the house. Now, if Lee were there, I would just spray the shit out of that thing until it was white and it's done. But for some reason, because it was just me on my own and Kiddy, I had this conscience of I can't do that to a spider. This poor thing is living

Me now on my own.

And that's probably a bad analogy, but I just remember thinking I would never have done this if I was at home with they would have said, either you get rid of it or I'm going to spray it.

I think you just have to kick into gear where you know.

It's just you can't always rely on somebody else in the house that's going to take care of things.

You're the adult. You're the one and only adult.

Of the adult.

It's so true. No one to delegate, No, no one to delegate.

Yeah, co parenting can be hard, even when you're living in the same house and you're married. Not everyone has the same views on how to parent or ideas around boundary or screen time. How have you navigated it and what have you learned about co parenting after divorce?

The communication has to be there, but we're not going to lie.

It's very, very difficult to be consistent when there are two different households. So Whilstly and I might agree that okay, we're not happy that she's done this, so we've both agreed now on the phone that there's going to be only an hour of screen time max. And then then you find out each one of us hasn't done that. We've both relaxed because we think the other ones probably relaxed it too, And no one wants to be.

The bad parent.

So it's just about getting on the same page and sticking to it. And that's actually really hard to do when you're not living in the same house because you don't actually know what's going on over there and he doesn't know what's going on over here.

So and kids are smart.

They're smart, you know, they're very smart, especially when it comes to screen time.

They're driving force. So yes, I will admit that things like that can be tricky.

I remember when you signed up with weight Watchers and there was lots of people that were like, oh, it's so bad, and why is she losing weight? And bad role model and all of those things. And I remember reaching out to you and saying, I hope you're doing okay, Like you should be able to do whatever you want to do.

Thank you, And I appreciated that.

Yeah, if a woman wants to lose weight, she should be allowed to lose weight. Yeah, once you sign a contract like that and you're contractually obliged to talk about your weight, and then you decide to end that contract. How do you redraw the boundaries about what you are prepared to talk about in public.

The thing is is, I didn't mind talking about my weight loss over that journey, but I think when the weight loss became quick and this year, you noticed a huge difference from last year to this year, and I think there became this real interest.

They were obsessed.

The media is all they talked about it, and I don't think I was prepared for that side of it. And it doesn't bother me that much, honestly, it doesn't. I mean, I think other people are more up in arms about it than I am, but.

In what way?

I think they're up in arms because every single headline has to mention how much weight I've lost, every one of them.

Like I'm just referring to Daily Mail.

Actually it's you talk to Christy Swan about that same deal.

Yeah, exactly, And you just can't escape it. But that's fine, Like, you know, it is what it is. I don't really care what they're writing, but I feel like it has gone on a bit long, so I try not to feed into it by giving any new information, because the minute they have one little new bit of information, then it just keeps fueling it. So yeah, I just tried to really kind of pull back on any talk of that because I don't think we should have that much

So yeah, I just try not to talk about it that much on now.

We've had interesting conversations on me out loud about this in terms of how much do famous people owe anyone when it comes to private matters, either how they lost weight, what surgery they had, how they got pregnant, whether they had fertility treatment. And I don't know where I've landed on that.

I don't know either.

I've been thinking about that lately too, Okay, So let's say someone's had plastic surgery.

Let's say a certain celebrity.

Is in her fifties and she looks fabulous, and we look at her and go, well, why don't I look like that? Does she have an obligation to let us know? Hey, guys, it's not natural. Don't feel bad about yourself. I got work done, I have money, I was able to access the best surgeon, and this.

Is why I look like that.

But we're asking them to do that to make us feel better. And I don't think they have an obligation to reveal things medically by any means. And I think some of that can be really private, especially when it comes to fertility pregnancy surgeries.

But then I think.

It's up to the individual if they want to share that because a lot of the time they might have this unfair advantage because of the money that they have to not make others feel inadequate.

Because hey, why don't I look like you? But I don't know.

I think that there's way too much invasion when it comes to celebrities. It's like we all think we have a right to every single piece of information that exists about them, and we don't they're people too.

So I think they have the right to privacy.

But I think you choose to go into this industry, you know what it's about. You think fame is this fabulous thing and you chase after it, but then you can't then get there and go I want to keep the fame and all the perks, but hey, leave me alone. Like you do have to accept that there is the good and the bad, and I accept that with my job. I know that there is ship parts to it, and sometimes it can feel very intrusive and you feel so

Yeah, but you know, you had someone photographing inside your house. I don't even know if that's legal. It can't be legal.

Yeah, how do you process that?

And what do you do? Because you know, here's a tiny violin for all the celebrities. Yeah, but that's outrageous.

Yeah, that was awful, I gotta say, because the reason it's so awful is because you're already in a vulnerable place in your life, because you might be seeing someone or and then you've got the added pressure of knowing that someone that night was as the road, lying in the grass, spying on you the whole time. And it's just that creepiness of oh fuck, sorry, excuse my language.

What else it's so used to?

Is there a sense of him?

You can even yeah, really, I have been known to pull it out every now and exact.

It's one of my favorites. It's one of my favorites.

It's more just the thought of, oh God, what else did I do that.

That man was watching?

So it feels super vulnerable when something like that happens. You know, if you're walking down the street, fine whatever, that's okay, but when they're spying on you in your home. And Kitty left the other night. Actually Lee had picked her up. It was a week night, and you know, my place is a little bit of a fishbowl and it's on the beach, so yes, there are windows there and you can see in so that sucks that part, but hey, you've got to sacrifice one for the other.

Would be legal if he then wasn't going to sell the photos and make money from stealing your privacy.

Yeah, it's an odd position to be put in, but there's just so much great.

I'm say more angry than you. Yeah, I'm not that angry. I just find I am why aren't you?

Because I just know.

That this is what comes with that, and I accept that that's what comes.

With dragmatic about it.

I'm pragmatic about it, but it's not to say.

You have moments where you feel really exposed and open to everyone's views on what you're doing on your balcony and you just feel vulnerable. But it's part of the job. So that part is not fun, but most of it is.

Yeah, people have a parasocial relationship with you. Before that word even existed, and before we had social media and influencers, people thought they knew you, and they think they know you, and in some ways maybe they do know you. You've been in areas for decades talking spontaneously about your life.

Yep.

Most of the time, the boundaries I have in place are am I speaking on behalf of two people here? So, for instance, the marriage to Lee, I would never say certain things because I shouldn't have the power to say something really personal that affects someone else as well. It's his, yeah, exactly. So I'm really mindful of that. The people in my life, I know what I can and can't say. I also know with Kitty the certain things that I would never say on air, and they know that what she would

I do like that part of the job because.

It brings me closer to the audience and I get that kind of feedback from so many particularly women who might have been through similar things to myself, and I don't know, it's just nice to hear when someone else is going.

Through what you're going through.

So I do like to be able to share a lot, but there's always going to be certain things that are off limits.

Yeah, that was certainly not the end of my conversation with Jackie O because I had to ask about something that makes her really uncomfortable, and she was such a good sport it. I asked her about money and what she does with all of it.

Here's a little taste.

It's just difficult mea. It's very difficult in many aspects. Money is so great on the one hand because it gives you this beautiful, comfortable life and you don't.

Have those worries and pressures.

And then on the other hand, sometimes you just want to be rid of it as well, because it changes dynamics. When you're talking about male female dynamics in relationships. There's no question that that plays a big part in that, and that's when I hate it.

I also asked her about dating, because she didn't want to date straight after she got divorced because her daughter was still coming to terms with it, and she was still coming to terms with it. But now she is diving in and she is even on the apps. She explained a few things to me about the apps and how people really know that it's her to hear the second part of my conversation with Jackie to the link in our show notes. The executive producer of No Filter