I Had My Daughter’s Baby... At 52

You're listening to a MoMA mia podcast. Mama Miya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

And I thought I could carry a baby for them. He said, don't be ridiculous. Do you know how old you are? He can't do that. I said, I can. I can anyway, And I approached Michelle. I said, Michelle, I'm going to do this for you.

From Mamma Maya. I'm Maya Friedman and you're listening to No Filter right now. On the south coast of New South Wales, there are two gorgeous little boys. They're around a year and a half old, and they're called Hugo and Spencer. Hugo loves washing dishes and vacuuming, and he loves birds, and he also loves feeding ducks. Spencer, meanwhile, is a bit what a Usain Bolt in the making, and he's obsessed with running, and he'll eat nothing but rice cakes if he's allowed to, and he'll always tell

Yes. As a relationship progressed, we did talk about what we saw in our future, and kids were definitely a part of that. We always wanted like a bigger family like John, I wanted four kids. I was fine with whatever. I didn't mind. I thought we'd see how we went, and so yeah, they were definitely always a definite thing that we were doing in our life together.

You'd had a clue that maybe pregnancy wasn't going to be so easy for you. What was your first hint that fertility could be a struggle.

My first hint was my first period. When that came, it came along with excruciating pain. So from pretty much day dot I would be in the fetal position with the amount of pain that I had, and that was consistent up until I started taking medication that stopped my period altogether. And they were the best years of my life because I experienced no pain then because I just didn't have a period.

As a doctor, I would diagnose, endo, did you have endometriosis?

So it was because I was so young, they suspected it was endometriosis, but they didn't want to do a certain on me at that age, and so I just went along with it. They said it's probably endo. Just take the pill, don't take the sugar tablets, and you won't get a period, and you might not experience pain, which at the time I was like, great, that's fine. Like I didn't even think about future repercussions of that. I just thought, right now, this is stopping all my pain,

That sounds horrific, Jasmina, did you have difficult periods? Did you have any experience in dealing with this.

In the beginning, I thought, why is she making such a big deal. It is a bit uncomfortable.

Drama queen.

Yeah, drama queen exactly because I was a bit tough love of a mum.

Yeah.

I saw that she was actually sweating with the pain that she was experiencing. I thought, hang on a minute, this is not right. And then we did go to specialists. We did get ultrasounds.

We got all the.

Tests, and they didn't really give us any indication of what she would go through when she decided to have a family. Nobody actually envisaged that or told us or warned us about it.

It was always suspected ENDO. And when I finally had an operation, they said, yeah, they confirmed it was endo. But then there was a comment made saying that, oh, your uterus is a bit small. I was like, oh, okay, we didn't comment, Yeah, that's fine.

Yeah, yeah, Like how did you find out that you had a unicorn uterus?

It wasn't until I went to see another specialist who did another laparoscopy and said that they found this thing that comes up on ultrasounds, and people thought it was an endometrioma, so just a sack filled with blood. Always assumed it was that. Yeah, but it was actually a part of my uters that didn't quite meet the other half of it when I was forming as a fetus. So my uterus was coming together as a fetus, and this side was late to the party and kind of

Wow, could you just get it removed? Yeah? I did, and that stopped the pain.

Yeah, I think all those years, how cranky I am that she suffered with that when it was such an easy fix. So you've got to go to the right doctor.

You had started an IVF fund for yourself before you even met or No, so you must have had a clue that it was going to be difficult because of all of this, right, Yeah.

I did. I knew that the level of pain that I was experiencing was not normal. Yeah, that I wanted to eventually have kids. I knew that IVF was expensive, and so it wasn't necessarily I was saving money for IVF. I was just saving money and I had a lot of money in a savings account and I would just refer to it as my IVF fund. I think I ended up using it to go on a holiday.

But tour if that wouldn't have even.

Covered the expense issue.

That's so true. You eventually did use IVF when you and John I decided you were going to try and start a family. What was your IVF experience like, how did it go.

My iv experience for me was quite pleasant. I didn't really experience a lot of the adverse effects of the hormones. I didn't mind injecting myself. That wasn't a big deal. Collection wasn't that painful for me. It was all you endured so much pain throughout your life that this was just a number just to blease.

Yeah, you did feel pregnant. Was it your first go at IVF?

No, it was my We did two rounds of IVF. First round, we made two embryos and neither of them were successful. Then the second round of IVF, the first embryo that we implanted was successful.

You felt pregnant that second round, you said, And in the early stages. Did you wake up in the night and you had a big bleed? What happened?

I had just finished dinner and I had got up off my chair and I just felt a gush, and I was like, that's weird. I've never felt this before. So I went to the bathroom and there was just blood everywhere, and I just continued bleeding. It was like someone turned on a tap. Did it hurt, No, it was just blood was coming out. And I assumed that this was what a miscarriage was.

Yeah, so you went to the hospital. Yeah, did you call your mom?

He rang me, he said, he's aid, there's Michelle's really bleeding. And I didn't really understand how much blood she had lost until I went there, all over the floor that attempted to wipe.

Some of it off in the corner of the shower.

She was quite upset, and the ambulance came and took her, and yeah, it was horrible.

That must have been so scary and also sad because you thought you were losing the baby.

At that point, I assumed that this was a miscarriage.

So they did the ultrasound, and I assume you expected them to find nothing there.

I was passing really big clots, and every time one came out, I assumed that that was our baby. Yeah, and then the sonographer was just like, oh, and there's the heartbeat, and I was like, excuse me, Yeah.

Wow, little guy was holding on a fighter. What a fighter? So did that mean that the pregnancy was pretty high risk? I imagine at this point.

Yeah, So with my unicorn, you a uterus and the bleeding was very consistent, Like I bled every single day that pregnancy more than I would have a regular period. So I was bleeding quite a lot.

Were you so anemic?

Probably was, but that was the last thing that was last on my mind.

How do you get it? Like, every time you went to the bathroom or you felt the blood coming out, you must have thought or he's gone, He's like, what's happening? How do you manage that mentally for all those weeks?

I guess you kind of repress all.

That'll do it. Yeah.

Yeah, she's still working full time. Yeah, from her couch.

Yeah. It was in COVID, so I got to work from home. That was That was a blessing. Actually, she could just lie on the couch. Yeah, she didn't do very much. We wouldn't letter of it, but I just assumed that if it wasn't a big bleed. Yeah, every was still fine, and we were having very regular ultrasounds as well.

And did your doctor tell you that you would probably carry a term, maybe not carry a term? What were they telling you?

Yeah, so my doctor said that there are lots of women with this kind of uterus that usually will carry up until around the thirties, like m.

Which is good. I mean it's still premature, but it's good.

Yeah, he said that he might be around thirty five thirty six weeks. Problem might be that the baby's breach because there's not much for him to turn around. Problem might be that, yeah, it might not be able to stretch as far, so it might come a bit early. But there are so many women around the world that are able to carry babies to term. Wow, yeah, it's kind of uterus.

So you were trying to get to at least twenty four weeks, twenty five weeks, which is kind of viability. Yea, how far did you get?

Nineteen?

Then what happened?

Then? I woke up, I think it was a weekend, and I went to the bathroom and there was no blood, which was pretty good, good morning. And then I just noticed that, like the TEMI the toilet paper was a little bit more wet, yeah than it usually is. And I was like, that's a bit weird. Went back into bed, laid down. I was perfectly still laying horizontally, and then just gush of water came out and I was like, my water's just broken, and so we rushed to the hospital.

Jazzy, did Johnna call you?

Well?

That night they came to our house.

We had dinner, and it was getting late, and they said, look, don't drive home, just stay over. And Michelle, I remember, said to me that night. I don't know if she remembers I don't feel right. I said, oh, I've probably eaten too much, blowing on the cash. She said, I just don't feel right. And yeah, Johnna, I said, look, I think Michelle's waters have broken.

So we rushed to the hospital. I went with them, and yeah.

When you were driving there, I'm sorry this tell me if this is all too upsetting, But when you were driving there, did you think there was a chance or did you know it's nineteen weeks, this isn't going to end well.

I think in the moment, you're just trying to deal with the situation at hand that I wasn't necessarily thinking at part of the future. I still I didn't know if this was something we could come back from. I didn't know what was really happening, and so I was just yeah, in this limbo.

Didn't the ultrasound person when they altra sounded you and they found that the baby's heartbeat was still beating, I think he said to you, or she said to you. Sometimes the amnuonic fluid builds back up, so there was hope. There was still hope.

Sometimes it reseals and it fell back up. Oh okay, well that's going to happen this time.

Yeah.

Sometimes it doesn't reseal, but it builds up and then it's still enough for the baby to practice swallowing and breathing. But yeah, that wasn't our case.

You had to give birth to little baby Ralph. I'm so sorry he was born having already passed away. And this is going to sound so strange, but I lost a baby at that same point, at eighteen or nineteen weeks. And when I watched your story on Australian Story, and I watched the time that you got to spend with baby Ralph in the hospital room, I was so jealous

Yeah, when I was giving birth, I had always dreamed about giving birth vaginally naturally. I thought I had experienced so much pain with my periods that I used to joke I was like, child, that's going to be easy to dream.

Like I'll phone it in. Yeah.

I was so grateful that I was able to give birth that even though it wasn't going to be, you know, a nice outcome in the end, I was so grateful that I got to experience it. I was so grateful that a few days before my water broke, I could feel him start to move a little bit. I was so grateful for all of that. Like a memory that sticks with me is when he finally came all the way down, Like I could feel everything, and I just thought that was amazing, Like I never thought that you

Had a little beanie.

Yes, yeah, like the old grandma's and it the beanies.

Wow, tiny little beanies like thimbles.

It is amazing and I'm I'm so grateful that we got to spend that time. Before I gave birth. I didn't know if I wanted to. I was just like, I don't know if I want I don't know if I want him in a cool crib. I don't know how I'm going to feel about this. But when he was here, I was like, no, I do want this. This is really nice.

After this break, what made Jasmina decide that she would do whatever it took not to see her daughter Michelle in so much grief and so much physical danger. Ever again, before you got to be with him, you started hemorrhaging in a big way.

Yeah.

Do you have any memories of that?

Vivid memories. I remember everything. I remember the name of the anethetist as I was wheeled into surgery.

Yeah.

I think with such like a traumatic event, my brain just absorbed everything. It was just on. I was delivering the placenta, I was holding Ralph, and the placenta was coming out in like little bits. It was a bit funny, and my doctor was like, oh, this is a bit weird. It might just be because you delivered so early that the placenter's whatever. And then she was like, just give me a couple of pushes, and so I was pushing.

Yeah, what did it feel like from the inside.

I first felt like one of the big gushes of blood that I had previously, just a gush of blood that I'm assuming like lots of women have when they have a flooding event, assuming it's the same as that. It was just a big gush. And then all of a sudden, the doctor was like, okay, I'm going to call things. I had a midwife next to me that started pumping my stomach. The other midwife was trying to detangle me from all the cords and disconnect me so they could wheel me away, and my doctor was like,

That part, and he was holding Ralph.

And then yeah, we passed him Ralph. They wheeled me away. So poor John I was left in a room by himself, holding his child that had passed away, with his wife's blood all over the room and potentially could pass away as well. Yeahs away from the well, I asked. I was asking the midwife as well, being wheeled down. I was like, do people pass away from this? And she looked at me and she was like no, no, no, And it was only afterwards that she was like, yeah,

Did you also say to that because you told me you said you asked her, am I going to die today?

Yeah? I said, I was like, am I going to die from this? Do people die from this? And she was like no, no, no, you'll be fine.

Imagine if she said, well sometimes she did come.

Her. Yeah. It was only afterward that she said that she believes that people are aware of their bodies. And when I said that, she was like, oh gosh, does she.

Know where were you? Jazzy?

It was bloody covid, Oh my gosh, telephone not knowing whether and John I was trying to pay it down, but I.

Could hear in his voice that he was panicked. He said, look, we've had a son. He didn't make it, and she'll just had to go to theater. Said what what theater? Does she have a cesarean? No?

No, and she said, oh there was a bit of blood and they have to stop her. And it was only afterwards that they told me the extent of it, especially because she was in I see you for a couple of days, just.

A day that was a day long, just one day, just one day, and I see you nearly dying.

Just that's Michelle all over me everything.

Just one short day.

It was very, very scary, very jause.

You must have been like an animal, like wanting to get to your what.

I didn't want to be that person that was always in their face, but I wanted to know is my daughter.

Okay, it was horrible, horrible. It was the worst time ever.

I don't want I can't even imagine. And then when you came out what you endured, which was beautiful but also heartbreaking because no one wants a pregnancy to end that way. You go home, you leave Ralph. That must have been incredibly tough doing that.

Yeah, it was really hard. I wanted to take him home. Yeah, also knew that I couldn't.

Well, John rang me, and you said, Jesse, you've got to ring Michelle and tell her. She doesn't want to let Ralph go. She won't let them take him. And I said, oh goodness.

I said, have you told He said, I have, but you need to tell her. And I rang her. I said, miss, you've got to do this.

You can't, you can't, I said, you just it's hard, but you have to let him go.

And that was one of the hardest things. And she said, black heart, Mom, I don't want to let him go because I'll never see him again. Yeah. So yeah, it was really hard. Yeah, but I'm so grateful for all the photos that we got with him and all the days that we got to spend with him.

I mean, there's like proof of him. Yeah, he was real. He was your boy. He made her a mom, He made you a mom.

She got to experience pregnancy and birth.

Oh my god, when did they tell you, hey, we're not going to be doing that again.

It was when I went to a follow up appointment after everything settled down. My obstraitrician just looked at me and said, I don't think you should try that again. And I was like, why not? Why can't I? And she was just like, there's too many variables at play here. We don't know why you bled the whole time. We don't know why your water broke so early, we don't know why you hemorrhaged afterwards. There's too many things that are either going to cause more trauma to yourself or

Well, it is true, it's actually true. Listen to your mother, Michelle and your doctors. They're right, it's too risky.

Yeah, but I knew Michelle May. I knew that she would not take no for an answer. Yeah, that would do it. And my husband and I spoke about it. We thought, there is no way Michelle's going to go.

Oh okay, I can't go again. I won't be your mum.

So you were worried that she was going to do it again and risk.

Her life one hundred percent. My husband and I was speaking to each other. I said, Druggy, Michelle's not going to take no for a nance. He said, but you know she's been told. And my husband had no idea about Sarregussie at this stage. But I had heard about it years and years previously, and I thought I could carry I could carry a baby for them.

He said, don't be ridiculous. Do you know how old you are. You can't do that. I said, I can, I can, and I researched it. I girgled it. I shady articles. There's not very much out there, especially in Australia anyway, and I approached Michelle. I said, Michelle, I'm going to do this for you. She said, are you sure, mum? Anyway, I don't know how Michelle felt about it, but I was. I was adamant I was going to do it. I've got.

Where were you? How did that conversation happen? Just like over a cup of tea or it was.

It was like a running joke that we had even before all this happened, because I knew that, like the pain that I was experienced was a lot. I knew that I had half a uterus. I knew all of this, and Mom was like, I'll just do it for you if you can't haha. Like it was always a running joke. My husband had never paid attention to any of this stuff, and it was I don't I don't even remember it, do you know, I don't remember it. It was just like, I will do it for you. And I kept saying,

Caught a lord above. At fifty two, you had a period, Chelsey, look at you? Possible?

But I did and I kept every month. Yes, it's still.

Did you need to have a period to be a surrogain?

I don't know. I don't know, but they want you to. There is a cutoff. There is definitely age cut off. So by fifty two, which was me wow.

Yeah, So we had to move quickly and we haven't talked about Sophie yet. John O's sister, your sister in law, was that like at the same family dinner that she said, yeah, I'll do that also, like what happens in your house?

Yeah, again, I think it was Sophie. It was always just something that she also said. She was like, if you can't do it, I to do it for you. And then I think we went to her house afterwards and she just said to me, I'm serious, I will do it, like if you want me to.

So my question is, Sophie had three children, Jazzi, you had Michelle and one other child. When you each found out that the other was going to do it or was willing to do it, didn't one of you go, oh, well you're sorted. I don't I won't do it too, let's just choose one.

That was never an option for me. I was always going to try and help her out that way. I knew that she wanted to have well, I thought it would be nice for her to have more than one child. And it was a bitch asking Sophie.

To do it. Twice.

I thought, you know what, I'll put my hand up, I'll go one go, and Sophie was going to go as well.

So there was her family.

Did you already have the embryos from your previous rounds of IVF, so they were ready to go.

Yeah. Yeah, the second round of IVF, we got a lot of embryos and so they were already they're ready to go, so we didn't have to go through that process again.

What are the laws around surrogacy? You can't pay someone to carry a baby, but someone can do it altruistically, right, Yeah.

The laws around surrogacy are that you need to complete counseling. There needs to be a legal agreement. The surrogate cannot be financially disadvantaged. In the agreement, you're also not allowed to pay them on top, so you're supposed to cover like medical costs all those peace. Yeah, if they have to take time off work, then you would pay for that time that they took off.

Did you have to do two sets of counseling or could you all just like kill two birds with one stone and just all just going together?

So we did. Myself and John are mum and dad.

Yeah.

I didn't understand why he needed.

To be like what do I got to do with this? Why do I need to be here?

You know how well he is about feelings, Like yeah, fine, you know, how does this affect you?

And it's fine.

I don't want to talk about my daughter's vagina and all my wife's in a room. I don't want that.

So myself and John I had to do it. Mom and dad had to do it. We had to do it Tokay and Sophie and her husband had to do it. Then we had to do it together. Then we had to get all three couples together and do one big, happy family just in case.

I don't know, what kinds of things did you talk about in the counseling, What do they want to know?

How are we going to feel when the baby was born and having to hand it over, and how are we going to cope with the mental load.

Of it all? But it was also it was also just seeing if you're a sane person to begin with.

Because I was going to say, how can you answer that when you haven't done it? You don't know.

But also it was a lot of questions on are they in a good mental state to be able to carry our pregnancy right? Yeah?

And finding people that specialize in this was hard because you can just.

Get a someone that does law for like.

You know, when you buy a house or conveyance. It had to be a specialist in that field, and that was hard.

We had counselors and lawyers from all over the country.

So why did you need lawyers? Because of when the baby was born? Genetically it was Michelle and John O's, but it came out of the body of Jazzy and Sophie. So what does the law have to do. Did you have to adopt your own biological children?

Yes?

Much so.

The legal agreement that we had to do as a part of the surrogacy process was based purely on finances, so that legally, if someone was out of pocket, we would have to make sure that they weren't. That was the extent of the legal agreement. There was no line in that that said just mean I must hand over Chase.

Men, I can't run off with the baby.

Children was stimulated in the legal agreement, right, so she could have taken the baby and there would have been no legal documents saying that that was not a bad thing.

Who's on the birth certificate?

Mum and Dad are on Hugo's birth certificate and Sophie and her husband Hilarious Spencer's, And so then I had to fill out hours and hours of paperwork. Two new they were born to have the birth certificate changed.

That seems outrageous that your husband, Jazzy and Sophie's husband, he really didn't even want to go to the counseling appointments.

Frankly austrange situation. Definitely.

Yeah. Wow.

I thought it was weird that there had to be a second parent on it. Yes, what's my husband with?

Literally nothing?

But I also understand why my dad's name was on it, because if the situation was reversed and you had an embryo that had been donated to you grown a baby, deliminate than fair. I understand why the wall.

Yeah that way, So Jasi, what was pregnancy like the third time around at age fifty two?

Well, I was pretty impressed that when the transfer happened, Michelle said, Mom, you're going to get three goes. I don't have an endless supply of embryos. Oh, no pressure. Three goes and that's it. You know, I'm going to hand Sofia. Then she's younger and it'll probably you know, work for her better than you, And I thought, oh gosh, no pressure.

So anyway, Hugo was implanted. I drive home, my husband drive me home.

I had my feet on the dashboard because I didn't want to risk anything.

I'm sitting and I lay down. I wanted to fall out. I didn't want it to fall out. I laid down on.

That couch Mia for three days. I did not move my legs up on the thing, and.

Anyway it worked.

I did wacked.

Anyway, we went to the ultra sad and there's a little heartbeat off.

Oh did it first?

Guy?

Michelle? Ha But pregnancy when mum was pregnant the first time, you were twenty one and twenty I was. I was a twenty one year old.

And a twenty four with my pregnancies, and I'd sort of forgotten and I had easy pregnancies.

I didn't have any morning sickness. I worked pretty much to the end.

When I carried Michelle and then with Hugo, I was so psyching myself up.

I thought, you know, this is not going to be as easy. I'm an old woman.

But it wasn't as bad as I had psyched myself up. It was relatively easy. I felt very healthy. I think I only threw up once in the beginning. I felt a bit sea sick, definitely, but that was quite comforting because I thought, well, if I am feeling sick, then it's still happening.

Yeah, what about you, Perry, were you like perimenopausal and pregnant at the same time.

I commend women our carry their grandchildren as a surrogate.

I was a rainy year old. My frozen shoulder.

Deep frosted itself. My hip was very sore before that wasn't sore. I had beautiful, luscious hair.

I hate. My skin was beautiful. I had all the hormones. I had all the estrogen.

It's a different type of HRT.

I guess it's a great hard it's a natural hate.

I felt great, honestly I did, apart from having gestational diabetes, yeah, which they expected I would get. And that was a good thing because I put on thirty kilos when I carried Michelle. I put on ten kiloes when I carried Hugo because I was on a very strict diet.

How did you feel different in your pregnancy and like how you felt towards the baby.

I felt like babysitting for nine months, like you don't want this child anything to happen. I stopped putting retinoile on my face because you know, I'm not from pregnant women. I was careful with what I ate because I thought, oh no, that's too much sugar. And I definitely didn't drink alcohol, obviously, but I was on edge. I didn't hang out the washing. My husband would, and he was as just as protective as me.

They're on hire alert the whole entire time. It's like baby sitting on steroids.

It was Hugo had turned unbeknownst to me, and he didn't kick for about a day and a half and.

I was getting more and more worried.

And I was sitting next to my boss and she said, just go to the hospital. I said, I don't want to bother them. She said, just just go. And I didn't tell Michelle and John I because I didn't want to make them nervous and scared. I went in and they said, oh no, he's still you know, got a heartbeat, it's still kicking.

He just turned. He had his back to me, and that was like.

But until I got it checked out, I was just a nervous wreck, thinking, oh gosh, I hope everything's okay. And I perk my stomach and still nothing that I could feel.

It was all the responsibility must have been really hectic. Yes, Michelle, How did it feel for you in terms of I imagine were you jealous a little bit? Yeah?

I was. It's amazing how many emotions you can feel that contradict each other at the same time. So I was first and foremost so grateful that two women were putting their bodies through this or my benefit. I was so grateful that we're able to do this. But then every time I would visit or i'd be just sitting on the couch with JOHNO, I would just have this longing but I wish it was me, even though logically I know it can't be me. I cannot do this. I just was annoyed that it wasn't me. It wasn't

It must have been also quite exhausting to be that grateful. Was it like thank you no, but thank you no, but thank you so much. But I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

I don't think over barring them like much to dinner. No, she would.

She would go over Sophie's house and help you put the kids, especially in the later stages of state.

We were Yeah, a lot more helpful for Sophie.

But I said to Michelle, I said, I'm fine, you don't need to do anything with me on fine.

How old was Sophie's other kids so.

Small at the time, I can't remember six, five and four?

Oh wow, wow, yeah, And what did she tell them? I mean, not that they would really care or be that interested.

The best thing about little kids is that you tell them something and they're.

Just like, oh, they just accept you. It's excellent.

It's just like, oh, mum's gonna grow Uncle John O and Ernie Misha's baby, and they were all like, okay, cool. They would call they would call her bumper, that's our cousin. Yeah right, yeah.

Did you have to have some awkward conversations when it was like, oh, you're pregnant, huh, you know you're old? Or who's bait? Yeah, and then you had to go, oh, yeah, it's my daughter and her Husbut like, that's not a conversation that's easy to have at the supermarket with a stranger.

Well, in the beginning, Michelle wasn't ready to tell anybody.

And we've got a group of friends that we always go out with and lucky it was winter ish. So I'd rock up with these scarves and these big coats and I'd say, Michell, we have to tell.

She said, no, you don't even know. I'm not ready yet because I don't know for whatever reason she wasn't ready to tell.

Why weren't you, Michelle? I want to ask you about that.

I was petrified that it wasn't going to work. Like we hadn't made it till the nineteen week mark. We hadn't read it till twenty four.

Okay, so you're protecting yourself some protection mechanism. I get it. I get it.

Well.

I was pretty huge, and I was just waiting for one of my friends to say something, and I didn't know how I was going to explain it away. So I'd be sitting there, sweating in the scarfs and jackets and.

They don't it's hot. Why can't you take no? No, I feel cold?

I feel cold maywhile they were looking at me and going, oh, menopause is not treating that woman right at it. He's got hot blushes, she's got a big.

Gut weight gain, look at her.

Wait game. Yeah it was dad. So one day they decided to tell their friends because Michelle said okay, you can tell them now. I wasn't there. No, no, you weren't there.

What happened when you told your friends? We were sitting at.

Dinner and druggons. My husband said, look, everyone, I need your attention. And then they go, well, we're having a baby. Jesse's having a baby. She's pregnant. They went what like it was like a disgust, almost like what what's wrong with you?

You old people doing?

Eh?

Yeah, pretty much that and then here goes but it's not my baby, and then they went, oh.

You.

That's so funny. He sounds excellent.

So yeah, we told them, but a vivid memory that I have. We had to go through the hospital, through the specialists there, and Michelle couldn't get out of work that day, so it was just JOHNO when I went and I said, You're like, can we hold hands when we go in?

Are you're such a trial? I love it?

There were people looking at what are you doing with her? Like she's old?

Even when I went shopping, people would look at me up. I could see they do a double take, the calculations like you look too old.

Yes, Jonathan could have just gone, oh, don't worry, it's just my mother in law.

Pretty much. Yeah, you wouldn't have been lying either.

After this break, are you ready for it? Jasmina goes into labor and it's a very funny the two different births because you know, Sophie got pregnant the first goal of IVF as well, which you weren't expecting. So there was seven weeks between you, right between your delivery dates. You had Hugo first and you had him by C section. What was your experience of the birth, Mish? What was that like for you?

I was petrified. I was so nervous, like just hoping that everything would turn out okay. I was scared for mum having you know, major abdominal surgery. I was, you know, very hopeful that the baby would come out alive. And so there's videos of me just like pacing up and down the corridor and jumping and doing dancers, just being like okay, I'm ready, I'm ready, Like come on. I was very nervous and I don't really experience intense emotions like that, and like, I was very nervous.

How did you both feel when the baby came out? What was that Like?

It is so real and I think it is for so many people. Just as soon as they're here, you're kind of like, you're here. Oh my goodness, there's a person in that stomach, and now you're mine. Like I had shocked, I was relieved that he was well. There was just so much joy. I was like, I was like, you're finally here. This is real. I cannot believe it. It was a really nice moment.

Jesse, how did you feel towards the baby? And I think I know what you're going to say. Compared to when you met your own children for the first time.

I felt like a grandmother. I never felt like he was mine, not even for a second. And I was so honored and proud that I could do this. I was healthy enough because there's apart from the psychological testing and factors, you have to be physically healthy because the doctors aren't going to risk your health and life by

Yeah, a lot of mums try and weasel their way into the delivery room and someone took it.

Now, it's funny you say that I tried, Well, this is what you have to do.

What you've got to do.

I didn't think of offering to actually carry the baby. That will be my plan for grandchild number two.

You do that.

It's interesting, Mish. I've watched some of the footage of you for the birth of Hugo and then for the birth the Spencer five weeks later, and Sophie, your sister in law, gave birth vaginally, and you were there with John O. That was very funny to watch because he was actually, that's his sister's vagina down there that his son's coming out of. And he tries trying not to look at one point, so cool, And what did Sophie say when he was trying not to look.

Sophie was just like, we've come this far. Just it doesn't matter anymore.

John, So I sort of do this awkward shuffle and back in and then sort of cut the cord over here. And by that stage, Sophie is there just yelling at me saying I don't.

Care, and Johnnah was still like, nah, I can't.

Do it, I can't. He looks very funny that. But what I noticed most was the difference in you and when you were watching Hugo be born versus when you're

I think the experience before Hugo, yes, with such a traumatic bad Yeah, that that's the only thing I have to go by, and so I'm just trying to be cautious but still be excited. And then when Hugo arrived, it was disbelief that this is finally real.

I could see that on your face because also the last time you were in an operating theater you were bleeding out. Yeah, so that must have been incredibly overwhelming and traumatic and triggering and all of the things and beautiful.

And I didn't focus on any of that though. Yeah, the day he was born, I didn't think about any of that past trauma. I just thought I'm so excited to meet him. I really hope it goes well. I didn't even think, oh is this the theater that I bled out in? Like, I didn't even think about any of that.

Did you feel a bit like Ralph was in the room somewhere?

Yeah? Yeah, I always think that, you know, he's around watching his brothers.

Yeah.

Sometimes I like let myself think, oh, he'd be three now, like the boys. Imagine having a toddler and twins or whatever. That would be insane.

It's like a little ghost baby. He'll always be there. He'll always be a little ghost baby. I still think my daughter would be like twenty five, and I still think about that sometimes. What you know, it's comforting though now, Like it's not for me. It's not a deep sadness, Like I like thinking of what she would maybe be like, you.

Know, yeah, like I make a cake for his birthday every year.

That's beautiful. Yeah yeah. Two babies at home twins essentially like what five weeks apart? Yeah yeah, when you're out with two babies, do you just say they're twins? I mean, it's a long story.

Otherwise, I don't want to trauma dump on other people. Well, actually, if they're not, and this is my story.

And they're like, oh, I've just been polite.

They're twins to everyone. Yeah, even yeah. The only time I ever tell the story is the pharmacists. The other day I had to pick up medication for them both, and he was just like, their scripts have different birthdays, and I was like, oh, yeah.

Very observant.

Pharmacists put their names down for childcare, and the childcare person rang them and said, look, you probably tired and haven't slept much.

Given the wrong days.

They seem to be born in different years. How's that? Yeah?

Everyone on the street, oh twins.

Yeah, yeah, December and January twenty two and twenty two so different.

There was Hugo oh yeah, a big, big baby, and there was Spencer, this tiny little newborn, and they go, twins.

Did you go, yeah, can look the same? They didn't say, now are they identical? Do they look identical?

No? A lot of.

People struggle with the idea of that there are fraternal twins that exist, and twins come walk different.

So many even though they're not twins.

I still think it's interesting that people don't.

Ny and the boys, what stories do you tell them? I mean, you guys have no secrets. You're talking to me. It's not like it's like, oh, don't mention it.

They're still quite young, so they don't really understand anything or care.

Really.

There's a photo of Ralph in their nursery and I point to him and I'm like, that's your brother. Have a picture on our TV screen. That's a photo of me, John, my mum and Sophie while they were both pregnant, and I just point to the tummies and I'm like, that's you in there. That's like you and those tummies. And so hopefully they'll always just know and then when it comes to explaining why that happened, it won't be a shock later on in their life.

I was thinking about you guys, and I was just thinking about you know, when you sat down and you're like, oh, it's not even a big deal. It's like it's a nothing. And I imagine at the time it was so huge and the decision and how it's going to go and explaining to people. But it's a little bit like, you know, when you're pregnant, you think so much about the birth and then that's just a day. You know, it's like, how the baby's got here? Did they come vaginally? Did

That's exactly how I feel. Like that's a distant memory.

I can't even remember, like the semantics that they're here and this is this is what matters.

Some people have asked me how was it hard to bond with them because you didn't carry them? And I just respond with do you ask like the second parent in any but like, for example, dads do you ask dads? Do you find it hard to bond?

So true?

Like, no, I always knew that this was my baby. Yeah, wed the whole time preparing for this. It was a long journey to get to this. Yes, I have bonded quite easily with them.

Yeah, I'm so happy for your beautiful family. What are they like? Do they have different personalities?

Completely different? They are so much fun. I love toddlers. It's really hard to take both of them out. Like sometimes I'll just be like, oh, if I only had one, this would be so much easier.

Should give one back.

Yeah, Spencer is crazy. He runs everywhere. He's so loud, and he'll get in their full of personality. Hugo is so chill. He loves just sitting there playing with things. He's strawing.

They are here, they are right and jazzy. People ask me this all the time. How's being a grandmar different to being a mum?

Oh so different, so so different. The love you have is different.

And I'm trying not to be over bearing. That's just me anyway. But I'm so proud of them. I love them with my heart and soul. I would do anything, anything for them. I love spending time with them, no matter how tired you are, me what kind of a week you've had. As grandkids walk in the door, you forget everything and you focus on them. And I intend on being a big part of their lives. I hope, I hope that the kids allow me to still and they will. They're not moving anywhere.

Surely you have some extra privileges. I mean, God, if you can't, is that as a little bit of a guilt, Like, hey, remember that time I got cut in half? You could have a baby, remember that.

Yeah, I'm going to play that card.

Yeah, here's my scar. Look at this scar.

I've never had this before. You were saying, like, because you don't have to like discipline them, and it's not It's this love and playfulness.

Yeah, mish, it's all of the same love that you have for your children, but none of the overwhelmings. Yeah, and not one bit of mental load. It's pure joy, Yes, it is.

I'm also so lucky that I have so much support close by, like johnno is the best, Like I have my parents, my in laws, like there is so much help. And I totally understand how this time in people's lives could be so overwhelming and so exhausting. But I'm so lucky that there are so many hands to help because I have been able to enjoy this part. Because of that, I qualified for the attorney to leave Mia. I took maternity leave, that's excellent.

And then I took twelve months of my own age and we helped Sophie, her mother and Sharon was there.

We were all there like like on a rotating roster.

You guys what a family. I mean. They say it takes a village, because it does, but not everyone's lucky enough to have a village. And the lengths that you have all gone for each other and the love that's there. Ralph would be very proud. Yeah, he did good things in his short time.

Yeah, yeah, we're lucky we can.

Science has progressed and we're able to do this sort of stuff.

Now, if that didn't put a smile on your dial, I don't know what will. Because they're just to hoot those two. It's so funny. Jasmina is just I just and the tricks that her husband played on their friends,

I just love it.

I'd love to be pregnant again if my daughter needs a uterus, I've still got one, or my daughter in law, Jesse, are you listening, she'd love that. Well, she actually doesn't like being pregnant, so I've always wanted to be surrogate. I'm happy to donate my uterus, So, Jesse, if you want to just like get on with things and not have morning sickness and stuff, I'll take on for the team and carry your next baby. Or would that be weird? Oh No, not weird at all. Anyway. We love stories