Wildcard Recap : Rams-Cardinals and Bengals Deep Dive with Paul Dehner Jr

noon Pacific. And after we finished taping, one of our producers, the Great Matt Tanton, I believe it was rolled in with a piece of paper and said, hey, we have we have money tags to read for the A T N show, and uh Money, who's been doing it? Now? You know he's the voice of God of the show for eight years, nine years, almost ten years without a single cent of pay, and I think it's starting to get on his radar a little bit. Just I'm just saying it now that you know I'm there anyway, I

get to watch him record. Roughly, I'm gonna say fifty money tags today including that one, and we got some real bangers coming out. So thank you to everyone who sends in money tags through Twitter and at Ricky Uh good element of the show. How much do you think we'd owe him over the course of the entire show. I mean he's doing fifty at a time. Um, I feel like we owe him thousands and thousands of dollars. We probably do. But Money is I think sneaky rich

he has. He has like fourteen jobs. He's very smart financially. Remember we haven't had a short lived bit on this show where money talks money. Uh, and we used to think is money though I don't know if it's I don't know sea. So I think he has a bunch of investments in the water. I mean, I mean he has the most popular drivetime show in Los Angeles for a decade or whatever it's been now. Uh, he's the voice of the Rams. He's got a bunch of jobs here. I do think are the charges. Wow, what a what

a mistake. That's the great JB. Long. By the way, my friend who I'll be hanging out with summer Selstice, just think of the exposure we've given. Uh. That's like how they pay you know, you pay interns or whatever, like, oh yeah, well, this will be great exposure you go on radio shows, exposure like the the audience that that money has been introduced to is it's irreplaceable that value?

That's perfectly said, Greg, How would you know, uh, fifteen year old guys in eastern Norway know about Matt money Smith without our show, right like Petros of money big time show in southern California. But what kind of range does it have in Wales. It's it's limited, just just by its nature. Anyway, welcome to the show, uh big show coming up today. The wild Card round officially in the books, kind of a dud. Let's let's be real about it. The last chance we had was ram Cardinals.

We're all three of us were at the games with our friends and family at the game with our friends and family, and we saw an absolute slaughter. And this was an interesting stat I saw on Twitter or a little uh tidbit that there were six wild card games played and not a single one of them had a lead change in the second half. So what that tells me is we're do boys, that we're due for the divisional round, which is always the best weekend of football

the year. To be an absolute haymaker of like Haymaker after Haymaker of classics, well, and to to kind of talk about Mark's theory throughout the course of the season in general, which is like he has no time for teams that aren't real threats. We just got rid of a lot of teams that had no business being in

the playoffs. It almost felt like most of them. And now we're with eight teams and I know, like the Bengals faced some long odds here, but it's like, couldn't you see anyone of these eight teams winning the Super Bowl? All four of these matchups are great. It's when you have no upsets and the was a mild upset and then you have a bunch of blots like you that means the next round should be all the more better. Yeah,

the football collective took the trash out. And I can even remember back to, you know, Sunday night where I was There was a part of me thinking that it was kind of delightful and chaotic that the Steelers were beating the Chiefs and might maybe even knock off the Chiefs. What a what a mental state I was in, because like, we are dealing with the teams we want to deal with now, and the lesser has been and we saw one last night. Um are out the door, right because

there were no real upsets in the first round. That means there's not that divisional game where it's like, all right, there's one game that we kind of know what's going to happen because a team snuck by in the wild card. No, this is gonna be a lot of fun kid championship games like that over the years. I do not think we're getting that in any in any way in any

matchup this year. The night like to bring of the power ranks again, apologies, but I have the Rams is my number eight team, and like you were saying, Greg, the Rams could absolutely win the Super Bowl. Did you see the Rams? Yeah, but like there's seven really good teams ahead of them, like really good teams. I'd put them ahead of the Titans and the Bengals, and you know, maybe that's it. Maybe is probably it's a sixth eight

whatever um. Alright, So, speaking of the Rams, they had to take out the garbage, and we don't want to be cruel. These are the humans involved with the Arizona Cardinals are not garbage humans. I don't know them personally. Maybe some are, but overall not all garbage. However, the team by the end of season was trash and they were treated as such at Sophie Stadium. Chase Edmonds is the back next to Kyler, ready to call forth three

to his rot. Takes the snap, sets the laces, bouncers in the pocket, hit from behind, flips it forward, is intersupted, intershupted, pick six David Junior, what's it at the one two? Boy? Well, this wasn't technically Monday night football, but it's our last stance to hear the song for a while, so we'll roll with it. Yes, that was the nail and the coffin for the Arizona Cardinals, who know showed in Los

Angeles Sun Monday night eleven. The Rams roll that pit six by by the way, so I went to the game with Zumwalt die hard Cardinals fans as the listeners of the show. Surely no, and he wasn't confident at all entering action, but excited as he should be. You get a chance to see your team in the playoff game. But just watching the way that game started, the Rams had twenty one points before the Cardinals had a first down.

That's what we're talking about. So this is a game that the better team obviously one and moves on and the Cardinals a lot of questions. Mark that it Pick six that we just heard from the great JB. Long. I'm going to think about that one for a long time when I think about Kyler Murray because I know a lot of the heat's gonna be on Cliff Kingsbury. But that Picks six, Oh, that one's gonna stick to my ribs when I think about where to put that

guy in the conversation the quarterbacks. Yeah, I think we need to quiet um, We need to grow to a hush when it comes to offseason m v P concepts and projections and sticking Kyler Murray into that conversation again, He's not there right now. And if anything, I give the Cardinals credit for closing their story in appropriate fashion, because they've essentially been like a vessel screaming towards Earth for the past month plus. I've not wanted to believe it.

I thought they could do a little bit more last night, but Kyler Murray's performance was was a heightened version of what we've seen for weeks and weeks where the offense looks so out of sorts, and I guess you can just say, look at they don't have DeAndre Hopkins so they weren't the same, But that tells me a lot more about who the Cardinals are in general. If you lose one guy, this is happening to teams all over the league. I think this is there's a lot going

on here. And it was a rough, rough night, and to me, I came out of it thinking that Cliff Kingsbury, who is sixteen and forty three, is a college in NFL coach after the seventh game of the season needs to learn how to manage an NFL season. That is a startling statistic. And I know we brought that up before, but Kyler Murray star has fallen right now. That play encapsulated everything that's been wrong with them, And I kind of wonder, from a Cardinals angirl, how do you sell

coming back with this same offense next year? This concept, this playbook, because it seems figured out, or at least seems to not last for a full season. And the Rams, I mean, this version of the Rams can win this Super Bowl and any Super Bowl, I thought. I mean, if you got what you got last night, all the players they added the O B J is the von Miller Stafford throwing for thinking is this my new pet? Team, but I'll only doom them if I do that, So

I'm gonna just hold off, but massive respect. And I brought my son Calton, and Colton said to me two things during the game. He said about eight minutes and he said, this Cardinals offense is just not very good. I was like, Bingo, you're right. What when did the Cardinals turn into the line. It's pretty amazing because we all have gone with our kids too to hear what they have to say and to be at that experience.

It was incredible to be at the game like it was the connestly the coolest thing I've done as a father. With Colton, I think in like a decade, and he became a Rams fan because of how stello they were perfect last night. They were pristine. You don't see teams play games like that. Yeah, you want to get fans Los Angeles to join you for the next generation, just like win playoff games. I mean, that's that's what got

my daughter Alice. Three years ago, she went to the Cowboys one where they want a playoff game, and she went from a bucks Ish fan to a Rams fan and then last night enjoying that one Walker's a Pats fan but he's joining in the Rams party. We're up in up in the section. I got the binoculars out and that, you know, there's one thing about being up there.

I think it's great. And you essentially get the all twenty two if you want to watch the pass routes, or you can do the binoculars and you can get kind of the end zone angle and watch the line play. And that was what and Walker just say another advantages. If you're also in the same section, you could watch Greg roseal used binoculars, which I heartily endorse us. You know a lot of people use binoculars a football, not a lot. Franklin Cardinals. No, not maybe not at the

Rams Cardinals. The mismatch when the Rams were on defense in terms of their defensive line is what makes this team different right now than it was in October and makes it similar, I believe, to what they were at this point a year ago when they didn't really have an offense. The offense on Monday night was okay, It really wasn't great. They punted four times in the first half. They had three three and outs, including twice where they got the ball at the fifty or in or in

Cardinals territory where they didn't do anything. It was. It was all about that defense to me. And von Miller's played his best game as a Ram three games in a row. Now he was dominant gains in Ashan Robbinson. I keep mentioning are winning their matchups and when you watch Donald get all this attention, like okay, that helps. Like now von Miller gets a one on one matchup against a struggling offensive line, and that's where it started.

We can get into how bad the Cardinals are in and definitely the collapse, but I just think they were overmatched in terms of their offensive line, especially even if Kyler had played well. They had been relying on Kyler to pull magic out of his key star the last month or so just to get any offense going, and they didn't have it last night. And I give the Rams defense a ton of credit for that. Yeah, I think they do as I think they kind of match up well with the weakness of the Bucks, which might

be their offensive line. After the events of Sunday, I think the this is a big confidence builder for l A after I would imagine they were a little bit cook, even if they're not going to tell you. After the forty Niners came back on him in week eighteen instill that game. So now you kinda you got your chest out again. You're feeling really good, and I don't think they're gonna be intimidated by the moment. I think Matthew Stafford getting that first playoff win, that's a positive thing.

And it's interesting. You're absolutely right about von Miller. He went from being a bit of an after thought in the initial weeks after the trade, and I know he was still getting physically right because he was banged up at the time to now being a guy that that's showing up time and time again, not just in the box score, but yeah, when we're in the uh the real time, all twenty two seats, you could see the game in a different way and you could see how active he was. So Miller has been That was a

smart trade. It's been working out and Odell. The Odell trade is turning into one of the more difficult trades to kind of make sense of because in somewhat like we were killing O'Dell last week, and if you look at his numbers, they're still not great, but he certainly has brought another element to this offense and he's been a god save uh for them because with Robert Woods going out of the lineup, but he's not the I think maybe it's like recalibrating expectations a little bit that

he's not going to be that all time game changer he was early in his career. But he does bring things to this team. Whether it's in the red zone, you could pull off a trick play. He's still got great athletic talent, so he brings an element to that offense that wasn't there. So I think those two trades and and the team be less need and Sean McVeigh being aggressive and going all in, as the social media account told us, has paid off here and it's made

them a better team. I'd give you another name to cam Akers. I mean cam Akers and Sony Michelle. I mean they ran the ball at a higher rate early in the game last night than they have all year. Cam Akers watching him live, I mean to come off an Achilles injury, which you know that's the one that kills running backs for you know, multiple seasons, he looked explosive to me. Um He's a total X factor for

them down the stretch. Sony Michelle has been good for them, but they have much more balanced than they were able to have at other times in this season. Their offense to me, like, I don't need Matthew Stafford to throw for four D and fift yards. You've got to find different ways to beat teams. And I love the Acres, who I thought would have maybe been like a top five rusher this season with the way I thought they would use them before he was injured, is back in

the mix. And to have O'Dell and to have Stafford when you get the good game from him, this offense is pretty fiery and excitable, and almost as excitable as One of my favorite things about the game in general was the female actress Nita Strouss. She's got her number one hits, but every time you're at that stagium and they cut to her, I always text and like she's on fire cranking these songs. I love the end game

experience for that reason alone. Know about this thing that's going on with you and the blond guitar player at SOFI Stadium, Well, yeah, no does the guitar player now? I mean I saw her in the parking lot in the NFL Media parking lot leaving the game and it was almost like scenes Man Spider Man, just like out of their natural habitat. It was just like, oh, you you exist in another world other than just shredding on the big she was she carrying her axe around. And

Mark also wants to know what license plate number and state? Right? License plate state? Um, you know, social security, just like a general make on the cars Sedan. What are we talking, suv? Hey, let's hear Cliff Kingsbury sounding sad and forlorn and totally confused about what to do next. You know, you come out against a really good team and don't do anything right for the first two quarters, that's what's gonna happen.

I gotta give them credit. They played a great game, and um, we didn't do much right coaching or playing the first half. Why do you feel like this team came out like that? I'm not sure. Um, that's then we gotta figure out. You know, that's what those guys are talking about in the locker room. Um, you gotta use as motivation and come back stronger from it. Um, because that's not indicative of who we want to be.

And unfortunately that showed up tonight. Alright, So so with Kingsbury, I think his path is pretty clear that he's going to be okay this year, I imagine, and then he'll be on the hot seat next year and they're gonna need to show that they're not going to fade again. If they fade again, my guess is they start over the Kyler Murray thing. And you could tell me that I'm gonna be too hard on him here, but I I I'm I think I'm starting I'm starting a waiver

on Murray here, and it's it's for two reasons. Because you could say, well, he wasn't the same once again after he came back from that injury, so maybe he wasn't physically right. Okay, in that case, that's back to back season that that a somewhat undersized quarterback has been compromised by a very physical game. Or you can look at the other way and take the injury or the possibility wasn't healthy out of it and say, okay, he lost his number one wide receiver, but then could do

nothing to make a team better. And it's like Joe burrowed to use an example, Joe Burrows the type of guy. To me, you could take Jamar Chase out of the lineup and I think he'd still move the team. Tom Brady obviously exact. It's proving you take some guys out,

he's still gonna move the offense. I'm starting to wonder if Kyler, for all the hype and how how exciting he could be as a player, is ultimately been overrated by us in the football gag that's sent the You've been pump him up the most, and I wonder, well, that's what I'm saying, and I wonder if that interception in the end zone is going to be remembered as a turning point in his career. Have a bit of a hunch has been tough on Kyler Murray for for a while about his size. Is he all out at

this point? I mean that would have been a He's never really been all in, so yeah, But that's more the first time I had like a sincere doubt about him. I know that's not really a popular opinion because everybody's gonna come after Cliff greg and say he's the problem or this is the problem, or that's the problem. But I I'm starting to getting a vibe eventually the finger is going to end up a QB. Well, but then make it clear that you're pointing, I guess I I disagree.

So have I not made myself clear just now? Right? I? I disagree hard because I think the best way to valuate these guys over sixteen games, for instance, like his year end QB Index ranking just as as one way to do it as a rookie, really good for a rookie tenth his second year, seventh this year, he's a third year quarterback who just played a terrible playoff game, like we've seen many young quarterbacks like Peyton Manning and many others start their playoff career terribly. Now am I

worried about the marriage of Kingsbury and Kyler? Yes, because I think that with the talent and with what was around Kyler and Kyler's abilities, that ultimately you can't have this happening. Because I disagree on that he didn't lift his team because the only times they moved the ball over the last five weeks, and I've been banging this drum, is Kyler Murray making like huge, big time plays and everything else is like a four yard throw to Earth's Now?

Does does Murray bear some responsibility for that? Sure? But he sort of won that game in Dallas by himself. He put up that was the only time they won for the But he put up my point is not much as happening within the natural progression of the offense. And I do put that more on Cliff when I see Kyler have every trait possible, not just the arm strength, but generally the decision making and the running. And again, like I said, over a sixteen game schedule, like he

has improved steadily every single season. That's what we want. And and I thought he it's not like I thought he played poorly down the stretch for the most part, Like he made some big time mistakes once they were trailing games, and last night was an absolute fiasco. But I tend to not put too much more on one playoff game, or even two playoff games. Um, then I do a whole career, because I think those things tend

to balance out in general. I mean, the way, one way I agree with you, Greg, is that I think we just naturally of a human tendency to isolate the results from the quarterback. And it's it's like the way that an offense runs. It's like so sy systemic, it's so environmental. He's packed to something that might not be advantageous for him. I wonder if he's in the wrong offense. It's it's like also, their offensive line issues were horrendous for him when he came back and all that business.

There have been injuries, but I but I don't like I also look at the calamary experience. He's had some incredible plays and he's done calamary things. But I would think it's a little bit shaky for me too, that like this suddenly is a guy that we still look at as an m v P. I just don't right now. But no one, no one. I mean people put it in in preseason articles like they did with Matthew Stafford every other year, including this year, and he'd about in

week nine. But he's never been that guy. I guess in week nine I did right, he absolutely was, and then he struggled down this stretch. But he's also how old is he twenty four? I mean he's younger than Joe Burrow. That matters. That matters to me, like like the fact that he's a third year quarterback. I have major doubts about Kingsbury and we've had a lot of people, including Spice Rack, who thinks he's one of the worst

coaches that's ever gotten the head coaching job. I don't think that's played out that way, but I do think it's absolutely air to say whether he's the right coach for Kyler Murray. And if they did fire him, I think and they had a great idea of where to go next, I wouldn't kill him for that. You know, it would feel like a Josh Rosen type of move out of Arizona. Like I'm not even totally a hundred

percent convinced Kingsbury's back. If you wanted to be bold and you don't feel like he's the guy, Okay, do it? I guess that's what I think they I think they should if they have doubts, if they think that Murray faded and the Cardinals faded down the stretch because of the coaching. You know, you have a finite amount of time to really cash in on this guy, and he's

on his rookie deal still. I just I just that's kind of to me a little bit predictable in the sense that I kind of knew this is how it's gonna play all the all the blame is gonna go on the coach here and not he had a terrible game, and the team was that by the end of the year. It was a meeting. It was a poor team by the end of the year. And I think what you're saying is what basically everyone else is going to be

saying as well. And I just I don't know, there's something about the nature of way this season ended that I don't know how you can't be a little bit nervous about Kyler based on how things ended. I mean, he melted down last night. He did well. What about Steve Kim who seems to escape all critique all the time.

I mean, it's like this, the roster looked good at one point this year, but I think last night was the cap and the capstone of like, there's issues when the when there were injuries, there's no one to fill in, there's depth problems. I mean, I just I think he's done a pretty good job, Steve Kind, But he's part of this soup too. I don't think anyone's blaming it's you can't just blame the coach, the quarterback and then

no one else. This is a team that failed. I mean J. J. Watt had it right, a massive failure. My my thing is more sample size I really do think the season and in the overall trajectory of a

career is more instructive than a game. Like Peyton Manning, for instance, And I know he's I don't think he's gonna be Peyton Manning, but I think we've established he's probably a top ten quarterback three years into his career, which is incredible to find one of those Peyton Manning's first three playoff games nine lost, seventeen for thirty two, lost fourteen for thirty one, forty one to nothing loss.

Uh you know that. And and I know we didn't have Twitter back then, and I know some quarterbacks play well in the playoffs, But I just it was one game on a bad Cardinals team. And it's crazy because five weeks ago we might have said this was the best team in the NFL, and over the last five or six weeks they were like obviously a poor team, which is great. It is crazy that I try to I guess. I just my final thought on is I tried to avoid these spicy takes that you would maybe

see on certain talking head shows. Um, I don't know. I just gotta maybe it was being at the game. Maybe Zumwalt in my orbit, maybe this, maybe that, but we'll see, well, we'll see where they are this time next year. Um. But Kingsbury obviously is a part of this conversation. He's it's a big part. Um. All right, that is the wild card round, but we have so much more to get it right after this. All right, welcome back. It is time for a guest and listen. Like the rest of the world, we are caught up

in Bengals fever. We want to get closer to this team that's become in a lot of ways, America's sweetheart here, so we brought on a big gun. He's senior writer and podcast host covering the Cincinnati Bengals and more for the Athletic. Once was dubbed the man who sets social media on fire. I don't know if he got any of the New York Times money connected to the Athletic. That's not That's a question that will come. It's pronounced Danner, don't you forget it. Paul Danner Junior. Welcome to be

around the NFL podcast. What's up? Thanks for having me, young guys. All right, so, Paul, you have been covering the Bengals for a decade, so you're kind of like, as the rest of us are trying to come to terms of the world in which Cincinnati is producing the most exciting football team in the country, what's it been like for you as someone that's covered the team so closely and been through the highs and lows, mostly lows.

I mean, it's kind of, as people got to witness on Saturday night, become as much as it's about Joe Burrow and it's about the turnaround, it's about the excitement of the team Saturday night, and it was the culmination of a season that in many ways has been about this city. Uh. That has been, as everybody heard by now, thirty one years without a playoff win. But it wasn't just that they had been thirty one years without a playoff winn. It's that they had all been heartbreaking in

the fashion in which they had gone down. You guys are familiar with that. I miss West because I always loved talking to him about the Bengals and his angst over how things had gone down. Every time I would

see him, and he would get so fired up about it. Uh. And and so you guys know, I mean, those that follow the Bengals know like that the city is so hung up and and frustrated by this like black cloud that hung over them because no matter what they did well, how many good draft classes they turned out, how many big regular season games they won, how many shrewd moves they made, it was always invalidated by the last line of yeah, but you didn't win a playoff game every

single time. And so for that to be gone to no longer have to discuss the nineties Bengals, or the meltdown at Paul Brown or any of the Carson Palmer's injury and chemo v on Olhapa, to never have to discuss that again and just talk about the future. And Joe Burrow has been a game changing not just night, but season for the city. And now they can all it can be about them. Now it can be about

that team that is so exciting to watch on the field. Yeah, when Zach Taylor said every one can take a deep breath, I almost thought, man, this is Zach Taylor again. You know, play being almost a little tight in the moment, I thought in terms of how he coached the second half of that game, and that the whole point of it isn't to get over relief. But it seems like he actually had a pretty good finger on the pulse of

the city and that's where he was getting at. It was just seeing him and Burrow back to back, with Burrow with the tinted shades kind of being like, I expected to do this quicker than we did. This is nothing,

let's go on. That's a big dichotomy. But you spoke about the fans, so I just wanted to follow on that because it seems like the fans are incredibly confident, and I'm including the Westling Brothers in that, of which you could be one just the looks, you know, with the facial hair and the shaved head, you could be a Westling brother. It almost feels like this this Bengals fandom, though, has gone the complete other direction where they're expecting them to go to the Super Bowl. There's a lot of

confidence with this team right now. Oh there is. I would like to say, bald is the new hair. By the way, it's the end, so don't believe and forget about that. But the thing is, you know, it is amazing in the lead up to that game, a city that was so scarred, a fan base so scarred to expect the other shoe to drop didn't have that at all, and I suspect, is this city suppressing its emotions. I've done that before when I suspect something bad, I'm feeling

something bad inside. I just talk over it with optimism a little bit. It felt like that was happening because they didn't want to think about the idea. But also I think the city the same way. The team follows Joe Burrow's lead, and he just changes everything. You know, you talked about him downplaying it afterwards. I mean he's basically partially that's him. I mean, that's who that guy is. He is the type of guy that is very calm and and he's gonna be always thinking about bigger things.

But he also I talked to a bunch of people about what is the IT factor? What has that tangibly looked like? And the line that always stuck out to me from that was he just has this innate feel for human dynamics and human interaction and what people need, what every person needs, and how that's different. And when somebody needs a pout on the back, some one needs confidence,

someone needs a stern look, whatever that is. He knows that this the team needed to settle down and understand that this was not a big deal, and he was trying to project that out to the team in the same way, this is not a big deal, you know, this is the expectation. This is what we're gonna be. He called it today the bare minimum going forward, that they'll win playoff games every year, and I think everybody kind of looked at it and said, yeah, I think

I believe that guy. I think he's right. I think it is the bare minimum here going forward. Well, I love what you say about his leadership. And you know, I'm a Browns fan, and a year ago I was sitting in this place thinking where the team from Ohio that wiped away all these terrible talks about the last time we want a playoff game with Bill Belichick beating Bill Parcels and then early nineties when I was in college. Now it's the Bengals, and I think that their star

seems to be so much higher. I mean, one of the reasons that West dropped the Bengals, the primary reason that I thought it was was ownership. It was the way the team was run that, like you know, every other team in the league is dug in on a re scouting services. The Bengals are doing something from forty two years ago, like they were not active in free agency, but now they are. The team is building their drafting. Well, you look at this roster, you look at the quarterback.

Do you think that ownership at this point is in the deep distance that the way the Bengals can operate to have the bare minimum be playoffs every year? The thing that annoyed West would he look at this team differently and say, I'm not so concerned about how it's run because this is a rocket ship just taking off at this point. I think so. I mean, Joe Burrow covers a lot of franchise warts Organization awards and he's done that. Um that said, they have performed off the

field differently in the last few years. I mean, you can't look at their last two off seasons and say that they've looked like the same old Bengals. When you look at the amount of money they spent in free agency, and a lot of times that can be you're okay, free agency, I'm gonna flush about half of that down the toilet, but hopefully the other half turns out good.

The Bengals hit on almost every free agency move that they made, this off season and some that were very controversial, and then they hit on the most controversial maybe pick of the entire draft, at least most talked about, uh leading up to it, between Jamar Chase versus and a school and what that has turned out to be for them, And and you have seen a different feel and now you have players that love being here and they love every aspect of it, and I think ownership has skewed younger.

They've brought into Blackburn's uh you know your Katy and Troy Blackburn have even brought in their daughters now who are involved and have played a big role in reconnecting with the fan base. It's been a two year journey for them to try to do that. They've done new uniforms, they've done Ring of Honor, They've made a huge push that a ton of money on their social media and on improving their game day experience, all things that they deservedly were ripped for forever. Um how a practice that

it's come, They've come a really long way. Um, you know, I wish and I hope he is maybe somewhere listening to all that, because that was kind of gonna be my follow up question, Like what tangible steps were taken to change an operation that felt like it was stuck in the dark ages. And I guess getting younger, different voices in there has has made a big difference. And

and Zach Taylor is another guy. Wanted to ask you about Paul because, um, you know, he was something of an unknown entering this year even though he had been there two years. We weren't seeing a lot of growth. Obviously, the Borough injury was a killer last year in terms

of the development of the team. And I really like this, your colleague Mike Sando, the Cook Index, which is by the way, great name, great hook, where you actually can statistically see how a switch got flipped with Taylor and this offense and how they became more aggressive starting with that bad overtime loss of the Niners where they marched down the field and then kind of got cute and ran it twice and then failed on third down and and he said he lost sleep about And you wrote

about this, and check out all Paul stuff on the Athletic And it's not like lip service or or beat writers looking for something to a narrative to craft. It's there in the pudding. They completely changed the way they ran their offense. Yeah, and it wasn't even as much about what happened in overtime, which was part of it. It was watching what Joe Burrow was in the fourth quarter and overtime of that game. He was that next level,

truly elite guy. And part of that went back to they finally felt really comfortable with his pocket presence, pocket movement, and his confidence back there. People don't realize me. Yes, he's been playing all year, but he still had to mentally been working through the knee injury as the year has gone along. I mean, when you remember when he came out of l s U, his pocket presence back there was his superpower. It's it's it's what separated him. And he wasn't able to really totally be that guy

throughout the first half of the season. So they protected him. They had a blind that wasn't great, so they protected him with a game that was They had very run heavy game plans. They knew they could still win that way. They had enough guys, Joe Mixon, whatever they could, their defense was playing good, they could win that way well. As it went by, and particularly at the end of that San Francisco get, you saw Okay, Burrow is all the way back and he is playing lights out. Let's

lean into this. And they didn't just lean, they lean all the way and opened it up and and and that's early in games, really getting after people throwing the ball. And what happened. I mean, Baltimore, Kansas City, you saw it. Even early. They get up by letting Burrow throw it, and they play from a head. They've played from a head, and all of these four games in a row that they've won is he's kind of been on this heater.

And that's a big part of just saying just go all the way in on on realizing that Burrow is gonna be the reason that we get there. Yeah, I know the line isn't great, but he can overcome that. He's proving right now he can overcome that. Paul, I have a question for you, because, like you know, this is all wonderful news, very sunny, we're all enjoying the journey, but um, you know, like the average beat writer, I mean, typically the games, the travel, you know, the endless stories

would have ended for you about two weeks ago. Is it slightly annoying on some level that if they go on for another three or four weeks. You're just taking it work wise. Question, you gotta answer there is no doubt. I mean, I used to say, because remember I covered this team from the eleven through fifteen run, where I had the perfect job because the team was relevant and interesting. I got to talk about the postseason instead of talking about the draft in December, and then they lost and

I was immediately off to my offsets. They took the first exit out of the playoffs. It was the perfect set up. And now here I am wondering, like, am I gonna be working into February with this? So but you know what the way it goes now though full season, it's like the the cycle doesn't end. If it ended, if they would have been out, and I'd be doing

mock drafts and everything else. So what does it matter anymore? Right, It's like it's like those Patriots reporters over the years, Mike Greece and Tom Current, they like put in three extra seasons compared to most writers. Very quickly, because I know, I know we're gonna have to let you go. I do just want to get a little bit of a look at this game and what you think are the concerns because i'd be. I'm concerned now that I'm kind of rooting for the Bengals, the line play on both sides,

and the coaching. Frankly, so that's three things, but especially the coaching matchup, but the line play on both sides, with the injuries on the defensive line and just generally Matt matching up that offensive line against Tennessee's front, Like, how do you think the Bengals can overcome that deficiency? Because to me, it does not. That part of the game looks like a pretty big mismatch. Yeah, I would agree.

I mean, you know, the trenches is gonna always gonna be this team's issue when they reached the highest levels. I mean, they can overcome that with their weapons against teams that that aren't as dynamic on the interior. But you know, from practice today, they look like they're not anywhere near as bad as shape as we thought they would be. On the defensive line. They did lose Larry Ogunjobi for the year. You know, Mike Daniels on the practice squad all year, and he heard his growing earlier

in the game. So it's not a huge deal. Um that Trey Hendrickson looks like he's probably trending in the right direction. That's massive. Um Josh Tupo, who was a really nice situational defensive tackle they have, is gonna be able to step in. It looks like probably that helps lessen the blow because b J. Hill has played pretty well and Ogan jovis as a rotation guy. So I don't think they're as beset on the defensive line as

you thought. And you know, they were team that was pretty good against the run this year, so they've always kind of felt that was maybe one of the strengths of themselves defensively. I think you can point to that. On the other side, you know, they've just struggled against teams that have really dynamic interior pass rushers, as you know, because they're just not good enough there and so Simmons is a nightmare scenario for you, and you just gotta

find ways to try to take them out. I felt like they've done a decent job playing in this division, getting practiced at it, dealing with teams with great edge rushers Miles Garrett, T. J. Watt they found and then Crosby again last week, found ways that those guys maybe they win a bunch, but they don't kill you. But what what does seem to hurt them is when they have the guys in the interior, they don't really seem to have a ton of answers there. So Simmons certainly

scares you more than anything. But then you say, I don't know, you got burrow and it's sort of like the heard every single question with this team right now. Well, I'll tell you what, Paul, and thank you for joining us, buddy, and follow Paul on the athletic throughout this whole journey, both throughout the season and then into the off season.

If the Bengals do knock off the number one seed Titans on Saturday, I think they become the biggest story in football, and then that's pretty good place to be as a beat writer, I would imagine, especially when you've been in the darkness, like when a certain linebacker ran into a tunnel when he thought a game was over and it wasn't over. Those days are gone. If you want me to come back and tell Vontes perfect stories for a while, I will do that, but you might

want to I don't know. We're good on censorship, because that sounds like an awesome offseason podcast to be honest with you. It's just like the memoirs of Vontes. All right, thank you, Paul, appreciate it, and good luck the rest of the way. Thanks guys. Thanks there goes Paul. And I'll tell you what, Ricky, that is one of those uh guess where it's like, all right, you put him in the Good Journey on a list. He's on the list. We got a Cincinnati guist. I interrupted Dan saying he

was good. So I think we all agree that that, you know, and he does feel like the I'm sure that the Wesleyans. There are probably other Wesley brothers out there. They had so many kids you can't keep track of all of them. Maybe he is a Westley brother. We just we don't know that. Well, there's also some conspiracy theories that some of them aren't Westling brothers. But that's you know, that's again for an offseason podcast. It is telling to me that, you know what, west was so

out there about not being a Bengals fan. But I don't know if he's having in depth conversations with every team's beat writer, you know what I mean. So, I mean he was with some to be fair, To be fair, he was with with some, but he was. He was tracking the Bengals much closer than than most teams, you

know what. And and Greg, you and I were texting him a little bit about West yesterday and how you feel his absence always but certainly and certain shows playoff time, of course, and I was just thinking myself now, um, as Paul was explaining the changes that the Bengals made, I wonder what West would have thought about that, having that insight from someone who has ear to the ground there. But it's certainly it can't it can't be from futility and poor decision making too all of a sudden, the

operation running smoothly without changes happening behind the scenes. So but you know, at the same time, I think it's important to point out that the quarterback can change everything. Because the Cincinnati, for all the the Brown family distrust Uh, they were going to the playoffs every year, they just didn't have a truly dynamic guy out front. And now they do. And that's I mean, a Patriots fan like you, Greg knows better than anyone it changes everything. I did

not hear a single word that you just said. You and Greg are having separate uh text conversations with me. Not involved about things that matter to us. What's what's the dynamic here? Why is that occurring? Greg? You want to take this one? No, I don't know. It's better just leave it hanging, leave it open. Well it is. It is left out there hanging, and I will I'll think about it, you know, roughly twelve times a second for the next two or three days. All right, let's

I love that. Let's take a break and we'll hit some news. All right, welcome back. Before we get to some iTunes listener feedback, let's hit a little bit of a league news as the personnel carousel that popped in my head while I was sitting in the section at so Fi Stadium yesterday. Personnel carousel not bad, that's that's what you're thinking about it live at the game. I like, it just happened. It just popped in there. You can't

control that. Yeah, when you're when you're an artist, like a real artist, like when the inspiration comes, you just have to be open to it. I consider that that's like part of your job. Just like I had some up with me and I just got up in a panic and just like sprint it away. And he just nodded his had, and he's like, that's an artist at work. I mean, some ald at that point is just in a fetal position, so he's accepting any artistry that will come his way. I mean that was an apocalyptic evening,

all right. So well, yes, as I said, personnel carousel, Mike Mayock will not be returning to the Las Vegas Raiders in the capacity of general manager. The team informed Mayok that they would not be signing to another contract. I think his contract was up. I think that was so I'm seeing it's fired. It's a little different when you just you move. That's kind of like we parted

ways anyway. That doesn't matter career record and twenty four uh in Mayok seasons with the team, their first playoff appearance since two thousand sixteen and their only playoff appearance since two thousand two whether the storm numerous on and off the field contract verses. Remember may I remember how mad Mayock was on hard knocks when Antonio Brown froze his feet in the cryogenic chamber. Sounds like a long time ago, but yeah, then you know the Henry Ruggs

tragedy earlier this year. Of course, the John Gruden situation and his resignation after the offensive emails came to light and Greg, I guess, first of all, sorry about your bad luck, Rich Pisaccia, because I think the one chance that he had to keep the head coach job was probably Mike Mayock sticking around. But uh, it almost feels

like once Gruden got shipped out of town here. Uh, it meant that the whole thing was getting blown out, really, regardless of how the season turned out, which was kind of successful, right they if this wasn't enough to keep Macmayock's job or Rich Pisaccia's, and I think Posaccia has a fraction of a chance to to get that job. You never know, uh that nothing, nothing would have And it's unfortunate. You think about Mayak, who's you know, in

his early sixties, coming from television. You know, he started that late, coming up like that. He knew this was his one chance. He was obviously appreciating this one chance. And he had a mixed record over the three years. Wasn't good in terms of the first round picks. Was quite good if you look at some of the guys that they got later in the draft, and even some of the moves this year, like picking up Casey Hayward, and and in gock Way and Crosby turns into this

great guy. It was a mixed bag at best for Mayock overall. But if you're him, you're also thinking John Gruden um screwed me over. He added Mike Mayock to the innumerable people that debt John Gruden ultimately let down because if if they made the playoffs with John Gruden, I tend to think Mike Mayox probably back in that same role next year, but it didn't work out the way I mean. I'd also add that when you look at the draft history of Mike Mayock and and look,

it's obviously spotty. He had thirteen picks in the top one. Two of them are probably viable players on the roster right now. But a lot of those picks were Gruden's picks, or at least heavily influenced by Gruden. It wasn't like Mike Mayock wasn't a separate personnel department giving the coaches players. I mean, there's always collaboration, but there are a lot of Gruden picks in there that Gruden is not held accountable for right now. I kind of just feel like

they inherited a huge mess. And this team this year was imperfect. We all see that, and they've they've they've all every GM is gonna miss here and there on picks, and maybe they're maybe Mayock's record was, you know, lower than some, but they created a playoff team, and I kind of just feel it's unfortunate and and just the

way the job goes. I'm so with you, Greg that it had Gruden tugged them into the playoffs and all that had not happened, Mack would still be here because he's done a pretty good job of adding talent compared to where they started. I just I find it to be kind of just like the hazard of the job of a GM. Well, it's tricky because again, as we were told old that it was nine in terms of control of the team, the personnel, Gruden fifty one, may

forty nine. So at the same time, when you when you say that, you know you can't you ding Mayok for all the bad moves they made in the first round, and there were many, you also can't fully say it was all Mayok that ended up landing some of these later round picks that turned into really quality starters. Um And was another one this year Diablo looked pretty good. They brought in Darren Waller during Mike Max the slot receiver that Greg was very slow to come around on.

That was the worst evaluation I've ever made it on this show in my life. You did that because of his hairline and I and I won't think it could be anything else. But um, I think in a lot of ways, yes, the raiders were imperfect, but the job opportunity was imperfect for Mac. But you understand why he ultimately jumped to it. He's sixty three now, he was sixty years old. He was the King of Draft Mountain on NFL Network and do a great job with that. And he had this opportunity to join Gruden and go

for a ride and and he took it. But I think ultimately, when you're a personnel guy, you kind of want to have control of the ship and not being that type of situation, especially as someone that's kind of uh, I don't want to say volcanic, but someone with an ego the size of John Gruden's that seems always seemed

like a very tough situation to be involved with. So I wonder if, if may I if he doesn't want to stay on this side of the sport, if he looks for a situation where he could actually have more, say, I don't know if he gets a big chair, a GM chair again, but if he tries to take this from a different angle, I think that was a unique opportunity. I don't know if it's kind of come up again. Doesn't mean he he couldn't possibly get a personnel job somewhere in the league, not as as the top guy,

if he wanted to go that route. But yeah, I feel like we've been kind of yeah, burying the You're at least not talking about the elephant in the room, which is what does this mean for Daniel Jeremiah, Because I think that's that's what I thought immediately upon this new And you know, he is the smiling assassin. Uh he is Jeremiah, guy that will pat you on the

back as he ripped your heart out. Um, so you know, the first thing he did probably was text Mike and you know, uh, say hey, sorry about how things play out, you're the best and all that. But at the same time, I'm sure his second call was probably the head of NFL Network and basically said back off, don't even think about bringing this guy back. In the building because this is my world. Now, I I'm prom king, I am prom slight projection, a slight projection, and we don't know

that that's how this played out. I actually heard it. You know, he walked by a conference room and I can't say it was definitely moved the sticks speaking to the highest of the Shadowy League figures and you actually could hear I'm prom king. Now, was that Jeremiah? I can't say for sure, but it definitely had the tone. I mean, it could be a lot of people that a film network based on. We know about a lot of people at NFL network, so yeah, but he he

fits the profile. I also wonder what it what it means for Derek Carr because at this point, like where is the where is the overwhelming interest from Mark Davis to sign Derek car to a five year extension? And I think, you know, we already know for me and Rappaport and reporting in general, it's gonna the environment's gonna change so much, new general manager, new coach. What are we promising them if you're Mark Davis, what what power do they have? And where does it leave Derek Carr?

I mean, I think it's like I wouldn't move on from Derek Carr because what it's move on to what. But there seems to be trepidation to just hand him a big money extension. There's just no there's no wording around it, there's no whispers. Well, I thought Ian's report, you know, parsing, it was really interesting that he said it would be a mutual thing, and he did make it clear that the contract was a big part of it, that Car wants more money. He hopes Pasaccio is there.

But Car has been arguably one one of the most underpaid quarterbacks that when he signed his deal, it was top of the market. People thought they got paid too much. But it's gotten to the point where he's quarterback in the league, has one year left on it. This is that off season where it's kind of, you know, you

make a decision on Derek Carr or not. So the timing of it is interesting, and I think Car will push to get more money and to get some commitment to not be you know, floating in the wind this offseason, and maybe the new coach whoever they hire like loves Derek Carr. I feel like that's a very realistic possibility that they're like, Hey, we can win with this dude. Let's give him the money and Mark Davis goes along

with that. We'll have plenty of time to speculate. But just for fun, I can't I can't stop thinking about how the Steelers are going to make a move. Derek Carr in a Steelers uniform. Actually it kind of works. It kind of works somewhere and the Raiders and I think would like him. I think he he kind of matches what they're looking for. Uh. And at the same time, the Raiders now that they're gonna bring in a new

uh team builder and most likely a new head coach. Uh, do you want to start building with a thirty year old quarterback or your own guy that you developed. There's something here, because there has to be somebody that shakes loose to move the quarterback market. And if it's not gonna be Russell Wilson, maybe it's Derek Carr. I got

another one for you. I mean, I I think we can't identify an owner who's more steamed at his quarterback right now, uh than Jim Mercy on the reliance of course, Carson wentz, what about Derek Carr teaming with Frank Reich. They're both very religious men. I think they see the world the same way. Um he I think he could maximize Carson. I don't know, Yeah, but that's I'm just saying that it's he's not bringing you're not bringing in

some sort of like rebel from the countryside. I think Derek Carr is amenable to, you know, coaching, and on top of it, like Frank Reich, for all his skills, has been lodged with three different starting quarterbacks over three years since I Andrew Luck vanished into the mist. I mean, they would love to get someone like Derek Carr they can sign for you know, the next five years and

actually have consistency under center. I mean, Steelers fans, especially older Steelers fans, have had a out of great things in their lifetime. So it's not like they don't deserve a little time rolling around in the bud with the rest of us. But even even the Steelers don't deserve late period big Ben into Carson Wentz, musical chairs turned down,

or to Mason Rudolph. I mean, the Athletic wrote that all signs point to Rudolph getting a chance, to which I say, I don't believe that, right Hill until player X becomes available with they know behind the scenes, I don't know what it was. It was more it was more like that would be the most evil thing to happen to Steelers Jan's and yet I don't believe it.

Mike Tomlin in his press conference today said Haskins and Rudolf I put themselves in position to compete, while also saying, you know it would be really great is having an athletic quarterback, having a quarterback that move Mason Rudolf not exactly the first guy or Dwayne Haskins that springs to mind when you think athletic quarterback. Actually I have Mason. I have Ben Roethlisberg on the line right now. Hey Ben, what do you think about either Mason Rudolph or Dwayne

Haskins as the QB one come week one? Very limited vocabulary from a big ben from what we know. All right, that's that. Before we close, Ricky had a good idea. It's been a while since we've checked in on the iTunes comments. Everybody, It's very important in this podcast game, UH for the shows to show growth and build UH juice within the industry. To bang those five stars on iTunes. Leave comments, it really does matter. It's weird the metrics game,

uh in our podcast world, and it matters. So if you could do that, if you could do us a favor and leave a comment about the show, uh positive negative, We don't really care now, flood them. Flood them positive right now. If you've made it this far in the show, you better be positive. We need truthful, We need a few um positives. All right. Well that's that's foreboding, all right, Ricky, you uh, the boys here, we have not seen anything that on this side of things. With the comments. You're

gonna pull some out and read to us. Go ahead, start with you want to start with a good one or bad one, guys, whatever Ricky wants. Alright, you're the captain. I pulled a bunch here. So this first one is love it five stars from cyclone seven to one listening to going to sleep favorite pod. Okay, a little bit of a backhanded company five stars. We don't. Yeah, you can say what you want. We're like that a big throw pillow that you used, like to rest your aching

hip at night. Absolutely like the pregnant you know, the pregnant woman's pillow where it's curved like a like a soft Yeah, I want one of those. I mean I was using pregnant woman. Yeah, I'm a pregnant woman right now. Okay. The show that made Me love football five stars Ethan Osborne Twine. I've listened to the show since the first episode when I was thirteen, and I'm still here for the heroes Miss West. Every listen, but still feel like the A t N crew are a part of my life.

Might have to lock it up as the best football podcast. Nay, best podcast. Good comment, that's crazy. We've taken him from middle school into almost college graduation. I never thought. I mean, it's it's one of the great blessings that we're on one of those shows that people use to mark time and in the march of time and and a ceaseless march that will end with marking the ground. He's run it as a virgin, and that's probably not the case

now well hopefully. Um this one goodbye one star from Mad King Slayer and the comment just says I've heard enough? Did that say, Mega King Slayer? This one true football nerds from hair Tie with a bunch of numbers. Five stars. Are they thirteen year old in their parents basements talking about football or are they grown men in a podcast studio importing football wisdom to the masses. Either way, they

are fantastic. The knowledge these men hold for the game of football is only the second reason I listened to the show. The first is their chemistry. They're like the Beatles of football podcasts. Of course, web West's absence has felt but the way these three keep his legacy alive is powerful. Shout out to my girl Erica too, who is a pioneer for so many. You are the star that keeps this thing shining. A millennial female listener, Alright, I like that. The only probably with the we Gotta Go.

But the only thing that the Beatles thing was always tricky because that means someone's Ringo. Yeah, and then it just gets a little Although I think the idea of chemistry over knowledge, though, is an apt to one knowledge maybe not like the first thing that you need from from some owners. And by the way, if you watch that, let it be documentary on Hulu. Like Ringo Sneaky the coolest beetle, So maybe it's all right, Mark, you can still I am not Ringo, first of all, suck it,

but like he's still alive. I'll give him that all right, all right, we gotta go. Thank you everybody for listening. We'll be back on Thursday with a preview of all the games to come, uh in the Divisional Round pound for pound, the best round of football all season. Thanks for listening, and remember heed the call.