Wide Receiver / Tight End Prospect Rankings (with Josh Norris & Danny Kelly)

great time. But he has a little manual timer that he uses next to his laptop to see where we are in real time in the show. And it looks like something from nineteen ninety six. But Greg today wielding the timer, um placed it hap haphappers Only what am I trying to say? On top of the cough button? And the show began an utter silence from Greg's mike. But now we're now we're here. Well, I'm glad now we spent a minute on that awesome story. You know, we we gotta fill the time. It's gonna be a

big show. The news is so boring this weekend, Like the best news I could find that like is like Durham Smith signed a contract extension that we're skipping straight past the news mark and we're gonna get right into wide receiver rankings with their old friend Josh Norris, tight end rankings with Danny Kelly from The Ringer who does a great job on their draft guide, and we're gonna

start going to school on the draft. As I know you have been, including on your weekend trip in Austin where you met you know, many adoring fans of the Around the NFL podcast. Yeah, I went into it, went to Austin, visited my brother, and I know we're on a tight clock here, Greg Saul to keep this story short, but UM had a great time. I mean, I've never

been there before. We just picked a random city to go to and we did have a There was a pod listener that stopped us for a minute to say hello, and it was a very typical scenario where he had tried to there was I put a little Instagram post outside I was an Austin. He explained to his wife, we might run into this guy from this podcast, And so when it happened in real time, it's always sort of what you get is like the wife is like, what is it about this person that interests you on

any level? And why did you stop down on our vacation to speak to him? So you know it went fairly well. That is next level though that he warned her we might see Mark Sessler and then you delivered. I mean, I didn't do anything. I was just sitting there, but you're right, I think the fates delivered. Like Destiny the world, the podcast is very different. Mark and Justin

sitting in Dan's quote unquote power chair. I'm sitting in the chair so that I can see Justin more importantly, because otherwise Mark and I would be sitting next to each other on the same side of the desk, like that couple who sits that way at restaurants. I'm sure Justin is part of that couple. He's laughing because it's true. If you're in a booth, I mean, what else are you gonna do? I agree, the booth is separated far

apart from it. You know you want to be on that same both, Yeah, but I just mean out of like a two time and not a you know where it's like a bank cat that other people share in. You're you're both at the same side. That's too much. Yeah, no, I agree. I want to look great. Struggles with the human contact element of things sometimes, so there's that baked into it, even with my wife. Let's not wait any longer.

Let's get Josh Norris of Underdog. I'm really not I I'm going on vacation though tomorrow and said, this is the last big thing I'm gonna do. Um, but before I go, I wanted to I wanted to learn. I wanted to go to school. I thought, what can we do today so that we get smarter about the NFL Draft? It's coming. The draft is in less than a month, Mark and I are starting to cram, and the best way to cram is to get on intelligent draft analysts

like Josh Norris from Underdog Fantasy. Welcome Josh, gentlemen, great to see you. This is a smooth operation. I am joining today and already I believe of the one thousand, four hundred and eighty three episodes you all have done, this might be number one research. He knew the episodes. We don't even know the episodes. Sixteen away from fifteen hundred, then we're almost there, I mean, hopefully I'm invited back for the celebration because again, this is going to set

a record record setter today. I'm through to be here. I am a listener. I hope everyone knows this. I'm a listener. In fact that Greg, I feel like in your position, I must say that Grave Digger didn't even bring up his music when joining the show today, Like this needs to be mentioned at the top. That's a good point. Who is speaking? Hey, sorry about that one. Get a little loose when Dan's not here, you know, Yeah,

it's just like but the substitute teacher pops in. Yeah, it's just like, it's just like me with my children. Ain't no respect. You can be rest assured Dan will not be listening to this episode. He's who knows where he is right now. But so Underdog Fantasy getting a lot of pop the last few years. Josh Norris famously nailed his mock draft two years ago, and then we had a battle between Mark and Josh going into last year, which was highly contested. I don't know who won that. Yeah,

I don't know if a winner was ever claimed. Mark your thoughts, well, the storyline out of that draft, you know, we were in Las Vegas, tracking my mock you know, picked by pick in yours as well, but it was Crave Digger who at in the eleventh hour created a mock that totally totally dropped a bomb on my results. So I don't remember how you fared in that. Now,

all that I know is last year doesn't matter. And then two years ago nailing sixteen of thirty two, Like you know, this, Dolphins going undefeated for a season is the only one I have to think about, right, It's almost like it's almost like f them picks. To be honest with you, where went all in for one draft cycle and nailed the best mock draft ever where the rest is kind of meaningless because I won one of them, you know, And who knows what happens this April? Mark?

I mean, is now the time to like lay down the real challenge that we will track were the final weekend in April? What better time? Right? Absolutely, we had to force it on Dan once he is back in that chao. So instead we're just gonna do wide receiver rankings. We're gonna go to school, We're gonna figure this out. And we haven't really talked about these guys as much.

We've been talking about the quarterbacks in general. And I thought I would get someone smart, uh like yourself on the show to give us your rankings, Josh, and then we would ask questions. We would pick them apart. We would maybe pick out a few different things unrelated to the receivers, but about like your physical appearance to needle you on and then try to get a reaction in

a human way. That way. Well, let me start by saying, I think this wide receiver class is different and difficult because they're all built like you Greg, like they're all really you know, uh, not your typical PROD type big wide receivers who went on the outside and like that's fine. Mark might have been a better comp like I'm five five, one thirty five or I don't know. Some of these guys aren't that far. That's next that would be next level.

But it's you know, now in the NFL you can be a quote unquote slot wide receiver, which was a stigma just a handful of years ago, right, and now you have all different shapes and sizes filling that spot. But it's it's a really fun wide receiver group. Albeit, I think we have to keep in mind how much we've been spoiled over the last few years with some absolute juggernauts and superstars at the position immediately once they

hit the NFL. Yeah, I mean it's I feel like you guys said it well on your show with Hayden Winks where you talked about the fact that the NFL is changing and we almost just have to not pre judge this class for what it is because they're coming in as part of a different world of the passing game in general. And a lot of these guys, I think their size a couple of years ago would have freaked people out, but the speed with some of them

appolutely changes the way you look at him. Who is sort of the first guy you studied that really jumped out to you, grabs your attention. Yeah, let's start at number one, and I'll go with Ohio State's Jackson Smith and Jigba who if we talk about what you just mentioned isolating a wide receiver, he didn't even play this past season, you know, just sixty snaps in total. But during that one year in twenty twenty one with Ohio State CJ Strout obviously at quarterback, Garrett Wilson at one

wide receiver, Chris olav and the other one. Then you had Jason at six foot and a half one hundred and ninety six pounds, who was just a slot demon, like zero wasted movement and just his ability to create leverage work on the toes of a cornerback if it's man coverage or in zone where it's like so much trash and muddied up in the middle of the field.

He just has like this particular mind meld with his quarterback that he's able to like sit in these windows in these spots and even work to the second or third gap if he needs to, and then as soon as he catches it, he just like rolls with a momentum and then picks up these chunk plays Like you will never consider him one of the top athletes at the wide receiver spot, but for him to be a plug in play player in this class, there's no doubt

in my mind he should drank his number one. You had a really interesting breakdown of a play had against Penn State where he did everything that that's good about him. To create a big play out of the gate was what you love about him. But then his downfield, you know speed, He was tackled by Joey Porter Jr. And it was, like I thought, it was a wonderful sort of encapsulation of what you love about him, but also why there's he's not a you know, maybe elite guy

on that level from the in terms of a speed angle. Yeah, And I mean he will set you up to lose immediately off the line in terms of like his release package, right, Like he'll take even a jab step the player you're talking about Mark as he took two steps of his left foot which forced the corner to take the outside lane, and that's because he wanted the inside move up the field. And then you know, sitting in that soft spot and

then rolling away from momentum. And then as you said, you constantly see him create separation and then sustain it.

But then whenever he has you know, fifteen or ten yards, then he'll get chased down at the end, which is totally fine, Like I will, I will give away some huge explosive moments of sixty yard touchdowns if this guy gets iron ninety one hundred, one hundred and ten targets during his rookie season, if not way more than that is possible, right Keenan Allen has gotten caught from behind.

It a lot of times in the NFL, and we still see guys like I don't know why old names are coming up, but Troy Williamson and Darius Heyward Bay go high in the draft way back in the day just because they can break the big one, Like the big one can be overrated. I like Smith and Jigba they're at number one. I'm not worried that he missed

last season. That feels very much like, look, I outproduced Garrett Wilson and Chris Lave And I know there's reasons for that in terms of the system, but it was still on the same team with them and easily outproduced.

And then when he wasn't on the same team with him, he puts up over three hundred yards in the biggest game of the year, Like that should matter for something like we recognize Wes Welker and Julian Edeman when they were in the slot, like that was created by their scheme in part, but it was also still production and

it's like incredibly important. And the fact that he had a hamstring injury that basically kept him out all of the last season, it felt like kind of like I'm sitting on where I put up a year ago, and that's fine, Like you have your whole career in front of you, you don't want anything worse to happen. I totally get it, and I totally look at him as

like an option route master. And not every team is running those option routes, but for the ones that do, like the Patriots, for instance, who are picking at fourteen, and to me that this would be a receiver pick that could actually get right, they are. They love the three cone drill Jackson Smith and Jiga's three cone drill was absolutely insane. I think that absolutely translates to winning in the slot. He has great concentration, like he stops

suddenly like you would expect. Everything seems like it'll translate to a thousand yard plus receiver. And yeah, maybe you're not as excited about him being like a true one, but if you're putting up twelve hundred yards every year as like a one B, that's still a first round pick. Now.

He only rans six routes in one or two wide receiver sets during his entire time at Ohio State, so I think there is even a question if he's even out there in two wide receiver sets when we see multiple tight ends or a fullback or whatever else on the field. But yeah, I mean just to go back to circles to the start, like the stigma of slot wide receivers, like I don't think just exists anymore because we just saw a guy in the Triple Crown winned

a couple of years ago in Cooper Cup. And then on top of that, the money that Christian Kirk is worth the Jaguars, Chris Godwin is now a different kind of body the name that you mentioned, I think Keenan, Allen slash amandros Saint Brown, while they have like different body types, Jason can immediately come in and fill that type of production role. And I used to say Greg and Mark that like you can't build your wide receiver room or your passing offense around a slot wide receiver.

And I think that's totally changed, Like you totally can now with how these coordinators, these play callers manufacture space

and opportunities over the middle of the field for these players. Now, I want to talk about your guy at number two, Jordan Addison at USC He was you know, Kenny Pickett's main target at Pits before that, and this is an interesting guy kind of gets right into what you were talking about, because he's five to eleven, weighs one hundred and seventy three pounds, and you mentioned that there have only been thirty two wide receivers in the past two

decades that have weighed one hundred and seventy three or less at the combine, and like, the lineup of those guys that have succeeded is very limited. But what do you like about him? How why can't he succeed? Well, I think he can run levels or routes at all three levels of the field, and at the very least he is going to be like a really good vertical

player for whatever team drafts him. But he almost has mastered like the dark arts element I would say of wide receiver play in terms of people should watch this on YouTube because Josh in his Brooklyn studio slash basement cave looks like he performs dark arts. Wait, like he posts on I don't know, I don't know what, like the modern equivalent of craigslists and people come over and

there's some dark arts. I think that's his only fans channel, but for and from part of the day, Oh, I'm engaged in June, So that is that's great to find someone who shares that lifestyle with you. So getting back to football, um, this element of you know, forcing a cornerback in the direction that you want them to go

in to in order to get to your spot. Right, So, like first he'll take this step or animated movement and you know that forces the corner to open up his hips in this direction he attacks that blind spot and then a corner is just completely off balance and then he works back. He has like these Gumby like movements too, where he can kind of contort his body, whether it

be screens or shallow routes. And yeah, Mark, the size thing is fascinating because that they're being five in this class alone that way, one one hundred and seventy three pounds or less, and as you said, thirty two in the last twenty years, and three or four of them are probably in the top ten receivers, right, Yeah, I mean it's Jordan Addison, Josh Downs, Tank Dell, and then two others in Jalen Cropper and Darius Davis Flower. Seems

like you truly is that size. He just put on ten pounds of muscle and you know sent it out the before and after picture for the combat like the whole, the whole, catch all term of route running, I would say probably Jordan Addison has like the best version of that here in terms of like sink your hips, create separation,

sustaining it all that. I think like at the very worst, he's Darnell Mooney and you can get up to like the Emmanuel Sanders t Y Hilton territory, and those guys have obviously been especially t Y Hilton, extremely productive and top options for their teams at some point during their career. Yeah, I think he has a higher ceiling than that, even or or than Jackson Smith and jib I went into this and I'm admitting that I have more work to

do here. I cramming, but I started watching these guys for the first time over the last week, and great play speed. I think like he's obviously faster than in jigbout like great feet, great suddenness. It's not that different than a slightly smaller Garrett Wilson. To me, it just seems like it's very easy to see him translate at

the next level anyone with that good feet. And I like that he worked in two different systems with two different quarterbacks Granted they were both great quarterbacks, Kenny Pickett and Caleb Williams, but to me, that is a major thing you now don't have to work. Like seeing a receiver succeed in two different systems. It's like seeing a receiver going free agency from one to the other. That's completely taking them in different situations. And he was like

incredibly productive in both. So to me, like these are the top two receivers in the draft, they seemed like the only two that are absolutely safe and are just gonna be starters and they'll probably be good from day one. And maybe they don't have the highest ceiling as a Jamar Chase and all those guys, but will be starters. And to be he has a little higher ceiling Smith and Jigba maybe a little higher floor where he's a great after catch guy, you know, good vision, you know

in terms of seeing what's in front of him. But Addison can just get open man. And I liked him a lot. To your point, he mostly was a slot player at pitt so we have that checked off where he can play that in the NFL if he needs to. And then he was a predominantly right wide receiver at USC ninety five percent of the snaps or outside right wide receiver. I slightly disagree with you because the only reason oftentimes you know this we connect like athleticism with ceiling.

George Addison might be like the worst athlete among this grouping, and he was average or below average in almost every single one of his categories. And then when you factor and weight and that, it obviously drops it down. But again, the nuances, the details of what I think you know wide receiver play is all about. He definitely encapsulates that at all three levels of the field, and he's probably the only one you can say that with. So definitely

an agreement on that point with you. I enjoyed watching Save Flowers and again with one of your breakdowns, I thought you showed that like when you get him into kind of pre snap motion, there was a way to really use his skill set get him open and then suddenly like he's got defenders just behind him, like that speed there, that quickness is an asset. I mean, I think he also at Boston College has not been a wide receiver factory by any notion, and there are some

bad quarterback players there. Do you think though, that he can come in and compete against like bigger NFL quarterback, cornerbacks and defenders on that front and still win the way he did in those situations. Yeah, definitely not a quarterback factory, seeing as though those quarterbacks stunk that were

throwing him the football. Zave Flowers is fascinating because he's that guy this year and you know this, that gets like all the All Pro or Hall of Fame comparisons, whether it be Steve Smith or Antonio Brown, because people love to watch small wide receivers who win big. He was asked to do all the difficult stuff at Boston College in terms of play on the outside, be the

vertical player, be the iso ball guy. And why that hurt probably his production because, as you said, when he was kind of the Z or the movement or the underneath or the drag routes and get the ball in his hands, allowed to win after the catch, he starred and all that stuff. To me, what that shows though,

is the NFL. Hey, we can ask you can ask these questions of if he can win on the outside pit at least gives you a taste of it, because we know on the easy stuff he can shine, like the movement he has with the ball in his hands, and he loves to square up with his defenders too as soon as he catches it and almost turns into

like a running back in those situations. So teams know he's going to be able to shine, probably as that z or is that slot player, but even having the glimpses, the moments, the opportunities to be more than that, and like the focal point of this passing game. I think when the teams look back, they'll be pleased that they actually had that question asked with him. I wasn't at like as excited you put him in your first tier.

Essentially you had a top three of Smith and Jigba, Addison and Flowers and then a tear I went into it kind of thing game. Flowers is exactly my type. I mean, I love like I love the guys who just moved different than everyone else and are great. After the catch, I thought Caldarius like, it doesn't take long to see Kadarius Tony and think like, guys just don't move like that. There's a way to find a role

for him as an explosive player. But Flowers didn't pop like that for me, at least at least like way ahead of the other small receivers in this class and not like not quite as much as a guy like Kadarius Tony, but that's who I kind of think is a model for him, like in terms of how they would use him, that he's not going to be doing all the normal receiver stuff at first, but they'll probably have him like use as a as a runner and kind of not gimmick plays, but but plays where you

work to get him in the hands. Yeah, manufacturer touches. Um I had a out of left field comparison to get him on this crusade to not compare everyone to like Pro bowlers or all pros. Do you remember Eddie Royal who had like an awesome first season with Jay Cutler, I believe Janahan and Jay Cutler, and then Josh McDaniels

came in. They trade away Jay Cutler and then went to Kyle Orton and is like you know this from your rod all days, Like everyone was all in an Eddie Royal because he had over a thousand total yards his rookie season and then it fell off a cliff. But he was almost of the same stature who with the ball in his hands was electric. Um I am

totally with you there on this point. Just going back to Jason and why he's at the top is I don't think he necessarily runs the routes as they are on paper, in that he will like manipulate or change it based on like the defense and the coverage and all these other factors. With the spatial awareness that he has, I think Zave Flowers is like a bit more robotic in his you know, like I'm gonna run what's right. You can't pay for that, That's that's smart, That's um.

That's why I wondered, Steve Smith is writing for Underdoor, working for Underdog right now, how did that negotiation go? Because he really liked Zay Flowers. He said he sort of reminded him of himself, And I was like, okay, I don't I don't quite see that yet. He's certainly not as like as physical as Steve Smith was as a player. But I am curious just like how how that was bringing in Steve Smith to the company. Does he like leave food in the fridge at work? Like,

what's what's he like around the office? Right? Yeah? He leads all the all hands meetings every Monday at noon Eastern. That's what he does. No, your timing could not be better. This morning we recorded what I planned to be about a forty five minute episode that turned into probably an hour and a half with Steve Smith. I don't know if you've ever had him on the show, but he he just grabs it by the horns and takes it wherever he wants to go. So it was it was

an interesting dynamic. Um, I'm not I listened to what you said or what you heard him say, and I

thought it was going to be the same thing. And I came away thinking that maybe he misspoke at the front on say Flowers, like I don't think he necessarily believes they played the same exact spot that he is that movement guy that you talked about, like Steve was an X and it's crazy that everyone always plays like compares these small guys who wouldn't big to see every single year and will for the next twenty years too.

But I think that he likes how competitive Zay Flowers is after the catch in terms of just being almost a runner with the ball in his hands, and I think that's where his I thought syem shows up the most. So yeah, I'd be excited. I mean if my team got Zay Flowers is like he'd be an exciting player. I just I'm not putting him like in that category.

To me, it just seems like there's a lot of these guys and different people are going to have different opinions and twhy like maybe the third or fourth receiver in this class feels very similar and grading to the twelfth and I have a feeling a lot of mocks are going to get blown up. You mentioned X receivers that kind of brings us to your next tier. So you had a tier more of four more players, and it starts with your number four is Cedric Tillman, a

little surprising out of Tennessee. And then Quentin Johnson who some people love. Ben Solac over at the Ringer. I saw him had number eleven overall, as his player did. Daniel Jeremia doesn't have him that high, but he has him pretty high. I saw the thirty third team. I don't know who made the ranking. They had him number two overall like Quentin Johnson. So Cedric Tillman not as big as Quinton Johnston. You have them four and five Tillman from Tennessee bigger receivers in a class full of

small receivers. Why do you like Tillman so much to put him up that high? He just said something round me of Corey Davis as like one of the bigger body guys who does all the difficult stuff, like the dirty stuff over the middle of the field. You know, if you need a slant, if you need an in cutting route. There aren't that many in this class that

like have that size that can win that. I think Johnson is the more intriguing conversation because he is a big body, like you said, six two and three quarters two hundred and eight pounds. The big plays are incredible. I mean, he averaged twenty two, eighteen and seventeen point eight yards per reception over the last three years, but he plays so small man like he here's the number for you, nineteen four smiss tackles, which is third best in this class. Yet I think he only yeah eight

of twenty three contested targets over last year. He came down with twenty two of fifty four over the last three seasons. That's one hundred and twenty fifth among wide receivers in the twenty twenty three class. Like, we'll get to some of these other smaller guys, but they might win thirteen of eighteen, So it's it's weird he has because everyone was so terrified of his speed in the Big twelve, these runways to go through and because of

that you see these awesome big plays. But whenever he's either working back towards the quarterback or over the middle of a field, when he actually has to face contact to me, kind of goes invisible. And that showed a major factor in that Georgia game to end the season where I think he only had one catch for five yards against kiey Ringo, who obviously is another prospect in this class. I mean, I know, you're thirteen of eighteen

contested catches. Guy is Josh Downs, who you're pretty fascinated with, and we can get to him into a second. But Quinn Johnson, don't think he's just someone that you're going to have teams around the league that say, yeah, there

are a lot of chess catches. Um he vanishes in certain games, but just the physical specimen in this draft specifically too, where there was not a good free agency crop and he's a different looking receiver than others that you're get he would he be overdrafted or would if in a different year, maybe he gets tiered in a different place. But the idea of him and what the potential is and what he could become is going to

fascinate someone to grab him earlier than we might think. Yeah, for sure, I just think that they would be making the mistake doing that. But I can be totally wrong with this stuff. You know, Nope, you couldn't. It's never happened, It's not going to happen. Who does he remind you of? Because did you mentioned Martavis Bryan as a company? I did, I did, But even Martavis was even I think more's Mark physical, though, I mean, at least in terms of

his body. He's not like as skinny as Mark Davis Bryant. You know, I'm not saying that the frame is exactly the same, but you know, the inconsistency that we get from production wise from Gabriel Davis on a week to week basis, I think that's what we will get from Quentin Johnson, where there are going to be some games if he doesn't hit a big play, he might just be silent. And I'm a little bit terrified of that.

So it really does go ahead. I was gonna say that the thirty third team thing I was talking about. So that's a website that's run Michael Mike Tannenbaum. Well, he listens to the show. He we called him out last week and I said, maybe I'll even hear this because he listens to the show in the Daniel Jeremiah episode. I don't know if he's listened to the Josh Morris episode. We'll see, we'll find out if he ranks, you know, DJ over Josh Norris in terms of draft pedigree. He

owns it. I think I think he's running this thing and it's all former NFL evaluators, personnel evaluators, and their big board has Johnston's second. So I think that shows you how like kind of old school NF felt. To Mark's point, I think, dudes, maybe look at this guy. And by the way, they have Roderick Jones the tackle from Georgia first. That's pretty wild too. Did you have a chance to watch Johnson yet, Yes. I thought he

was just like, well, I agree with you. He seemed like he's going to be a player that's very frustrating in the NFL that he probably could he could produce in the right situation, and he could get open like he's explosive in the short area. So I think that's why it was exciting. Is a guy that big who is explosive. I think he can get open relatively maybe for a bigger guy, but will be inconsistent, like not

tough at the catch point. You're right, and we'll probably be frustrating, like a frustrating guy if you take him high to go back. I kind of asked Steve that question, because again, no one's better at like playing bigger than your size than he is, and like, is that something coaching can take up in terms of just hey, utilizing this six foot nine frame when you when you have your wingspan instead of like playing like your five to eleven.

And I almost believe Greg it comes like from the individual, It comes from within somehow and like competitive. So I can't really answer if he's going to improve that with NFL coaching because you kind of think with all these opportunities, I mean, fifty four of them over the last three years, and we just haven't seen any development with it. But that's not to say, like if he does get drafted mark that he's going to be a zero. But he already has that insane deep speed, that he will hit

big plays no matter what. But if we got like plays big plus big plays, then I'd be much more comfortable feeling good about him in the first round. Yeah, zero would be a problem for all involved, no doubt about that. I love that you put Tilman though fourth before we quickly wrap up the thing was because I watched Tilman and I really liked him a lot. And I think the only reason he's not getting looked as

because he was hurt this last year. But when he was on the same team as High and I know they played different kind of spots on the roster, he had a thousand more yards at him Like that matters a lot to me. And similar to Johnston as like one of the bigger guys in the class, but like sneaky, long strides, like could be an X, like very fluid, makes tough catches, like probably a number two receiver, but

potentially a very good number two receiver. Lanceyerlaner guy compared him to Michael Pittman, and I thought that was a perfect comparison. He's a Michael Pittman type player who just goes and gets it, And to me, there's not a big difference between him and and like I said, like if if he's going to be later in the draft, I would love to take him and maybe like him more than Johnson. All right, what are you gonna see

about Doins? I know, I know Josh Downs, like you seem to really be fascinated with and you mean frustrated with big players who plays small. You said the opposite about Downs, and I think also you just see the production. You mentioned that he had like forty three percent of UNC's targets in twenty twenty one catches and he had ninety plus passes catches a year ago. And it wasn't all you know, schemed up stuff. It was like I think, only eleven the more screens. So it's like this player

seems fascinating to me. I mean again, he's another very small wide receiver. Why do you like him so much? I think your opinions, you see, you have them a little higher than some other people do. Yeah, it does come back to just someone of that size winning thirteen of eighteen contested catches. And so like I think you when you think about the slot wide receivers, many people believe they were just replaceable types. So does one have a calling card? Can they maximize or do something different

than everyone else. And I would say for Josh Downs, it's playing bigger than his size, you know, it just allows for more to happen for a player that is five foot nine, one hundred and seventy one pounds. He's I think, extremely explosive in his movements. He has like this stop and start nature to them, and he kind of has that JSN field for soft areas. Like if

the Panthers take CJ. Strout at number one and obviously can't get JSN at thirty nine overall, like filling that maybe with Josh Downs, who is truly a slot only would make a lot of sense to me because it's that middle of the field connection that Downs with his quarterbacks at UNC two. It's um I don't know if we've ever had a class that like lacks that top end appeal and just has so many of these names, but we know that so a number of these are

going to be extremely productive. It's just obviously landing on the right ones in the right offense. And you look at these draft classes and like all these receivers keep getting underdrafted, Like all the second round receivers for the most part, not all, but the hit rate on second round receivers has been sky high compared to other positions, Like guys like Pittman, was Higgins technically a second round receiver.

He was just like, there's just been so many of these guys, and I think that'll happen in this class because I don't think anyone's many of them are gonna get taken, and none are getting taken in the top ten. Maybe only three get taken in the first round or something, but it feels like there's twelve good ones. I kind of like the look look a Mingo. I like a little Jonathan Mingo. Look look pretty good. I like Tank Dell. You said stop and start like that kid can he

can stop and start. He's very very I don't care if he doesn't have a great forty. He's very explosive in the first ten and can get open when it matters where he needs to get open. And everyone's going to have their other different little favorites, and we'll talk about that as it gets in the job. I guess my point is like there's like fourteen of them, and I'm not sure there's like a huge difference after the

top two. It's it's like the year that the independent films blew up the oscars and changed and that that was sort of phony in a way, but it changed everything we thought about independent film. Maybe this is the undersized wide receiver class that changes our minds a couple of years from now and shifts, Yeah, how we do things. So might say it's the gregon mark here of three and I don't like that. I don't like I don't like that picture on the way that we discussed. I

do consider myself a tankd out. I have the confidence to be named Nathaniel and be one of the smallest people on the field and get the nickname tank. I don't know how show. Yeah, we talked just a little bit about Jalen Hyatt because this Tennessee offense. I think it'd be funnier if I just didn't let you that was underdog fantasy. Thank you, Josh, You've been amazing. I've really just got to complete this. Sorry, I'm really sorry, but we're gonna get to Danny Kelly after this break.

See you, Josh. All right, welcome back to the show. You know, thanks for Josh. Norris felt like we we heard everything we needed to hear from Josh. We had reached our endpoint. Yeah, he wanted to add a few more details, and you shut the door on that opportunity. It's just that you're the host whenever, whenever someone says, you know, can I have say one more thing that no one's ever said? No, I think it was time. It feels like a very Rosenthal hammer swing. I enjoy

you and all my friends. I'm feeling the power chair. And that's why I'm so excited to let uh Danny Kelly uh enter the program here today. Danny Kelly has been writing for The Ringer for who knows how how long? A long time? How long, Danny, you can jump in here, about seven years, I think now a long time. Kind of crazy. So a fantasy writer at the Ringer. But he's not just fantasy. He's also their big draft expert.

He's wearing two hats, two big hats. He's got the big board up by Danny Kelly over at the Ringer. He's been a Seahawks fan forever and he has a mysterious man in the background of his YouTube shot. Who is that? Is that a Philadelphia Philly? What is going on there? That's Ken Griffey Jr. In Washington and he played for the Baby Ms for a spell there when he's like eighteen years old, and so yeah, let's picture him.

So I just wanted to start off. You didn't hear our previous interview with Josh Nowris, I just wanted to get your thoughts on Jail and Highatt Danny. I think he's he's very good at one or two things and that will get him on the field early in his career, and then he's gonna have to develop from there, be a little bit more well round a route runner, you know, expand all that, get a little bit better at catching the football, but overall a very explosive, big play receiver

who I think has a role. Okay, I surprise you with that, and you don't even know what the backstory is and you don't need to. I just hope that Josh,

here's that. I thought that was excellent Jalen Hyatt analysis. Actually, but yeah, before we do get to the tight ends, because we're kind of structuring this show and pass catchers in general, wide receivers tight ends, do you haven't, like, what is your hottest or least conventional wide receiver take or just or a couple just like something up there where you feel like you're a little different than consensus at receiver. That's a really good question. I think, let's

see here, Marvin Mims is discount Jordan Addison. That that's good. Marvin Mims in the second instead of Jordan Addison in the first kind of play similar roles. I think Addison's a better route runner, but generally speaking, around the same size, both big play receivers, both a lot of production. I like THEMS a lot. I think it's kind of strange how he doesn't have a whole lot of hype right now. But to me, he extremely fast, like he can the term the expression I heard that I really liked is

he can beat guys off the dribble. He's just like one step, but he's down the field and he gets past coverage. So that's what I picture when I think about him. So I think he has a potential to be a steal in the draft. It's such an unusual draft class this year because we just talked with Josh Norris about how small the wide receivers are. But when you look at these tight ends, I mean, they are

massive bodied individuals. There's some like literally human freakazoids. Like entering the league at this time around, And I really enjoyed your write up because I think it allowed you just to use language just to describe their bodies in general, like what these teams are going to get? I mean, are there a couple of teams if you're thinking, like you know, we need a pass catcher, we need a target far offense, It's like this might be the year where you swing on a tight end and just maybe

let some of these wide receivers fall deeper down. Yeah. Absolutely, I think that's It's such an interesting class from the tight end point of view, because I think the NFL has not had a ton of success with tight ends in the first round. Like if you go back in the last ten years or so, first round tight ends generally speaking are kind of busts. Even Kyle Pitts I think hasn't really lived up to his draft status yet,

though I do think he will eventually. But that's part of the deal, Like it takes these guys a little bit longer. So, on one hand, I think there's a chance some of these highly touted tight ends will drop a little bit in the draft. Rod. On the other hand, like you were mentioning, you know, with the receiver class kind of, I think the NFL is a little bit split on them. I don't know if there's really any you know, top tier guy. There's no Chase, there's no Mr.

Chase in this class. And so we could see teams just have a look at it more like a holistic point of view, like we're just gonna get a pass catch or a playmaker. We're gonna get this guy, plug him into our offense and go from there. From that point of view, maybe we see two or three or four tight ends go in the first round rather than some of these shrimpy one hundred and seventy three pound receivers or whatever. Like to me, that's just like a

little bit worrisome. Day Flowers, Jordan Addison, even Jaylor Hyatt, very very skinny guys. And so maybe the NFL teams will opt to go a little bit bigger and draft one of these other quote unquote playmakers even though they're not receivers technically, right, Thank Dell Josh Downs who who you mentioned, Yeah, he's tiny, Like well, it feels like a lot of that where it's all these guys who I'd rather have pick a wide receiver down Tillman, who

you seem to like relatively. Um, you know, pick them in the second, pick a different position in the first because it's close enough, but the first might be those tight ends as you mentioned, I'm I was a little surprised to see Michael Mayer uh as your number one tight end. You call them a berserker uruk high from Helm's Deep. Do you know what that is? Great? No? I don't. Yeah, it's it's a pretty it's a pretty great um compare. It's just this like underground, absolute, like

mythical being. Just look, just again. It looks beyond something we would imagine from a human being. And I just like, this is what I love about your writing. Was like very picturesque. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm not there for that, but I feel like it was very evocative Danny. And as someone I saw Lord of the Rings and a special screening before it came out with other new with other new Line employees who were excited because it was gonna change their lives. I lived, you know, I was

a roommate with one of them. And people walked out of that like it was a religious experience. They were so excited, so happy, and I was like halfway through, I was like, are they ever gonna just stop walking? It's just like they just keep walking, and I've, I've it's very rare that I keep my mouth shut and don't say anything that I'm thinking. But I just kept my mouth shut and let them have their moment so

you can have this moment and talk. Michael Mayer. That's I mean that what you're describing is how I felt watching the Michael Mayor tape. So there you go. Religious experience for me. No, I don't know. To me, it's tough because I really like Don Kinka from Utah. I'm guessing we'll get to him. But Michael Mayer to me

is just really complete. He's a really good blocker, very very strong, and he's, you know, not the elite level athlete that some of these other guys in this class are, but he's a good athlete, is above average athlete, and he is the type of guy who could play on all three downs. He's not going to give away any like formation formational tendencies or play calling tendencies. He's just

kind of like that prototypical y tight end. And I think the thing where he separates himself a little bit from maybe some of the other guys in his class. Is just his catch strength at the you know, at the catch point. Basically he in combat catch situations. He's like unheard of good Like he's catch. Is that like one of the new terms that's from Lord of the Rings too? Um yeah, no, he to me, he's just so strong. He just knows how to box out guys.

He has vice greup haants that kind of thing. He's just so um tough and physical at the catch point. He's gonna be a good red zone all right, He's gonna be a quarterback's best friend. All the cliches. But it's I love your in your mock draft because you're right. He led the league and among all tight ends and contested catches. You called said he's built like a tank

and plays like one. And you paired them with the Detroit Lions, which is exactly sort of what they're looking for, and they, you know, out goes t. J. Hawkinson, Like incomes this guy who kind of fits what the Lions are trying to do. Yeah. Absolutely, And you know they're a take a hunk out of you type of team,

Like that's their ethos, that's their personality. And he I mean, I don't know if you guys saw him interviewing at the combine, but Michael Mayer is the most intense individual I think I saw at that at the combine, and you know, he just kind of gets up there. He's like super confident. He just towers over everybody and he's just like, I don't know, it was hard to explain,

but he's very detroit. Lions e to me, he just Dan Campbell is you're just you're profiling here, You're profiling I mean, if but that makes sense, he's the most Dan I mean, and that's what coaches do. I mean, Dan Campbell might be looking for the guy he could never be because that it's not like Michael Mayer's like some incredible blocker or anything. I know, there's like the Witt and comparisons. But maybe he gets to be a good blocker. But he's not a huge guy or anything

like that. But you're saying just in terms of his weight, like the competitiveness, Yeah, just catching the ball. That seems like an important thing for a tight end, right, And I think you know, the Lions want to be multidimensional, they want to run the ball. You know, they wouldn't signed David Montgomery. They want to have the ability to do it all kind of, and I think he doesn't. You know, he doesn't pigeonhole them into passing or running on any given down. So to me, that's where his

value is. And they don't have a guy that's really coming in to replace what Hawkinson was given them before. Our guy. Daniel Jeremiah called Dalton Kincaid a more explosive version of zach Ertzum And you're right up your comp Cole, And you said, I don't even want to say it, but I'm thinking it. What are you thinking for the people that? Yeah, who do you think I'm talking about? There? Yeah, I think that's exactly what it was. Just like it's like I say it that you're teasing and I enjoy it.

People get so mad, Greg when you compare people, when you compare prospects to the elite players at the position, even though I do it all the time. Um, it's just to me. When he moves around, he's not quite as heavy as as Travis Kelsey, but he the way he moves, the smoothness, the fluidity his run after the catch, Um, it's reminiscent of Travis Kelsey. It really reminded me of

Travis Kelsey watching him. So, um, I've always said my my sort of bit is that Travis Kelsey looks like he's pretending he's surfing when he runs routes, like he's just kind of like, you know, I don't even know it, like I don't know the surfing term as well. I think that's a good way to do it. He's very fake it. He's very often kind of you know, weaving through the chargers, looks like he's back on a surfboard. But um, yeah, so to me, he's just like fluid,

really natural, really good after the catch. Um, he doesn't not he does not block very well. In fact, he kind of gets rocked when he's trying to block anybody. But um, you know, as a pass catcher, is a pure pass catcher. I think he has potential to be the best in this clas he's just so smooth, so athletic, good body control, can go up and twist and contort in the air and come down with football you know, all that good stuff. I want to talk more about Kincaid because I'm I I loved what I saw in

my limited viewing. Admittedly limited but at first I wanted to talk and I wanted to be bring our producer Justin Graver in here too, Um, Justin. Have you noticed the simmering bromance here between Mark and Danny? Because Mark is a word smith, it takes it takes a lot to impress Mark in terms of like writing ability. But he said it before the show, he said it a few times on the show. He really likes the way Danny, uh, you know, turns a phrase and that's what that's what

gets Mark up in the morning. Yeah, And I can see the connection forming already over the Lord of the Rings, you know, comparisons, and I can just see it in Mark's eyes. He's smitten. I'm not gonna deny it. Like you've won me over with the entire projects and you've done it. Have you two ever met? Have you ever two ever met? Yeah? Were not enough? Not enough? Is it's put into draft guide writing, you know what I mean. People think it's just kind of I mean it like

people think it's just like all about evaluation. But over the years, like the evaluations kind of even out and some of the I see out there, some of these people making their big boards. They don't try to entertain at all. That's where DK comes in right there. He's the Dalton Kincaid of big board writers. I don't know.

To me, it'd be hard to imagine taking Michael Mayer over Dalton Kincaid, and I could totally see why Kincaid would go in front of all the receivers in this class, even though that makes me nervous because of what you said about the tight end position that it's just man, it's just been really hard to project. But I'm I'm almost a little surprised that Kincaid doesn't have even more pop. I guess just because he didn't he didn't play as much.

Maybe that's it because he just looks like when when I saw DJ Daniel Jeer my R guy like rank him that high without the tape as much like man, I think it's for a reason. His hands are crazy. He shakes up tacklers like crazy, and his burst is just wild for a tight end at that size. Like I don't need to see the testing. It's there on the field, like he has balance, he has the hands, but it's the burst to me, because I think that's

the easiest. I think the eye test does matter a little bit and I think burst is something you can see and like that dude is just gonna get open. It's like hard to imagine if he's in the right system, not making a ton of plays, and so to me, he's more exciting and that I'm just falling for the

shiny object. And I could totally see him going in front of any wide receiver in this class, and definitely I would want him ahead of Mayor because you know the you know the meme that like get shared on Twitter all the time where it's like the guy who's all of a sudden leans forward in his chair. What he's doing doing the video games? He's got the controller in his hands, Like this is to me what happened

when I turned on the Concade tape. Yeah, I'm like, okay, hold on, you have my attention, because I kind of went in like thinking, oh, he's probably a little bit overrated, but no, I loved I loved everything about it. Is

like one of the most exciting. There's like three or four players that you kind of like think of when because they're like honestly going through one hundred and two hundred players, you know, during the draft process, it becomes a slog so he was one of like a handful of guys that I'm just like, seriously, WHOA, this guy's awesome. I love this player. And I think to me, you know, you mentioned like it's hard to imagine anyone picking may Or over him. I think, to me, it's just stylistically,

what do you want? It's kind of like the receiver position. There's just so many different types of receiver out there that it's almost like a vibe saying what kind of player do you want in your offense? So I could absolutely see Kincaid going over Mayor. It just depends on who's picking at that point. I want the big playmaker. That's the vibe I like. I mean, they both have great hands. You can't tell me Dalton Kinkaid doesn't have great an ya, it's great hands too. No, he does

for sure. I you know, I'm with Greg. I'm getting to the tape maybe a little bit later than you and fellow draft knicks around the country. But someone that just jumped out to me and I'm not alone, and this one was just Darnell Washington, and I'm thinking of a clip I saw where he was in a shifting situation with another big bodied individual who was six foot four and he towered over him because he's six foot seven, he's two sixty four. He's doing stuff at the combine

with like the twenty yards shuttle that's insane. Like, I don't know how this guy escapes the first round on any level, because it's just like the concept of what you could do with him, and how athletic he is and what he looks like on a football field. It's just like, sign me up for the next seven or eight years of this individual. Yeah, I mean, it's planet theory, right, There's just not very many guys on the planet his big, that big, and that fast, that athletic. I was actually

pretty shocked to see him. I think he ran the third fastest three cone of the combine of any player, not just tight end like of any players like Jackson Smith and Jigba in a corner or something. You know, we're faster than him in the three cone, which was shocking. I don't know if that necessarily shows up on tape, but it's so here. Isn't that a problem? Everyone's like, well, you don't really see it when he plays football. I think it just tells you maybe a little bit more

just how good of an athlete. He is not necessarily like going to show up in terms of his route running. But he's just a really good athlete. Roo can you know, sink his hips and all that stuff. But to me when I watched him, you know, he's a dominant run blocker in space, Like he engholfs people in the screen game when they get him moving in space, and like at the second level, he's absolutely dominant. So I think a team that likes using the screen game would absolutely

love this guy. I think he's very good, at least above average as like an inline blocker, as a you know, in the passing game, and so you can use him as an inline guy to have that extra protection to the quarterback. So like he's he can do a lot of different things for your offense. Plus, I think he's got there's just a lot of meat on the bone in terms of his ability as a pass catcher. He's so big, so physical. He's six seven, two sixty five or you know, I think he played at like two

eighties something. Honestly, Listen, he might slim down for the combine, but he's just such a dominant force in the red zone you could just throw it up and let him go get it. I don't think he's the most natural pass catcher of this group, but his ability to be a run blocker and pass bocker and basically do it all is what is going to get him in the first roun. He's probably gonna be a first round pick, I'd say, just because of the physical traits in the

upside there. It reminds me of this horrible experience I had in high school where I played cornerback because I was like my size and they were like just at the eighteenth cornerback and there was a game where like seventeen guys got shredded, and so I'm out there and we were playing a team that had no quarterbacks, so they were just direct snapping to like a left tackle who could run fast, and there are a couple of scenarios where it's like, I've got this guy coming straight

at me. Why am I on the earth right now? So I think that's how a smaller cornerback is going to feel against this Washington. I could see that. I could see the Titans taking that. I forget who was the coach at the combine who said, like some personnel gay, It was like it really is important to be a good looking team coming off the bus. I mean someone said that, and it's like, I don't know, but if you're hanging outside the bus, I guess right, like who

is staying on that around that bus. But the Titans are that team that like that looked great coming off the bus. The Patriots like to be that team a little bit too, or at least in the past that used to. We'll see, we're gonna take a quick break, Danny, and then we'll wrap up tight ends in any other big picture thoughts before we say goodbye. Okay, we are back, Danny. When you looked at athletic tight ends, why didn't you rank Sam Laporta higher on your Big Part number sixty.

This was the guy that intrigued me, I think in the way that Darnell Washington intrigued Mark just because you can you can see him getting again short area quickness where you can see him open, getting open quickly, which is what is going to happen in the NFL. He's stuck in an offense that's stuck in like you know twenty, you know forty seven, and so they never know how to use they're awesome tight ends that they have, but we've seen tight ends from Bio obviously have a lot

of success. Uh, why is Sam Laporta not higher on your rankings? Defend your home man Um, I would love to see the consensus ranks. I feel like I'm a little bit higher than that might be true. I guess it was kind of like when I saw the common back when when I saw the combine numbers plus his tape, Like, his combine numbers are insane. He was like ninetieth percentile in most of these things. So he is a He's a freaky athlete from Iowa. I'm definitely doing the same

school thing. But I don't care. I know I like it, I really do. He I think he led their team in receiving the last two years, and so that's what I'm saying, And like is their go to guy, and you know, teams know that they're going to pass to him. He still produces. I think all those things are very um critical Um. He can move, he can do some option routes. He can block, and he can block a little too because he went to Iowa, and he can run after catch. He's really he's like one of those

guys that just refuses to go down. You know, it is kittle lesque. Not to compare him necessarily up to Kittle, but um, you know he has that run off to catchability. Yeah, maybe I am a little bit too low, and I'm good, I'm convincing I do like him. I don't want to sound like I'm, you know, trying to tell you that I think he's not a very good player. I think

he's really good. I think he's gonna be um, you know, the type of tight end that in the NFL gets into the NFL and becomes really famous because he's gonna

catch a lot of passes. I was trying to think, who are the other Iowa tight ends, because yeah, because I think it was Greg co Sell I heard say something recently was like, you know, tight ends in terms of productions often the scheme you're in, and like he was calling out people that got a little too excited about Dalton Saltz, and maybe I was one of them. I ranked them very high in my tighten It's like he's in that offense, whoever's in that offense is gonna

catch a lot of passes. And Sam Laport is sort of the opposite as George Kittles. I was trying to figure out who are the other Iowa tight Ends. It really weren't that, No no fan, okay, Dallas Clark also went to Iowa Dallas Clara Marv Cook, who was on the tight end New England, I mean the tech moble New England Patriots. I believe the original tech well Bill tight End for the Patriots. Marv Cook I also appeared. Who did you play with? Tech Mo ball Mark, Let's

go around the room. But the team the original I'm not talking tech with super Bowl World enough. Maybe Danny's not. Well. I played with the Cleveland Browns and you have Kevin Mack just smashing through people left and right. Okay, that was actually a really fun team because they have Kevin mcan Eric Metcalf right, Well, the second one had metcalf and that was a sort of a bad Browns team that you could form into a good one if you had the skills that some of us had. Who would

you play with, Danny? You're not as old as us, but you know I'm close. Um. I don't remember the actual players. I do think it was the Phil Simms Giant is the Giants? Was he on the Giants back in the day? Yeah? And they had a thing where, um, there was a cheat code where Lawrence Taylor um on special teams could literally block every single extra point. So if you got high scoring enough game, you'd have to get an extra touchdown on those Giants. I think I've

played with the Giants all the time. I can't remember there's a really good running back on that team I'm blanking on. Maybe you guys remember I've been Otis Anderson. I think I think it was Otis. I think it was a lot of slants from Phil Simms. It was a lot of Lawrence Taylor wrecking shop. Any any other tight ends that excited you. I looked at a couple more. Luke Musgrave is not the type of guy that is gonna get me going in the morning. Um okay, you know like one of those tall like does he just

looks like an injury waiting to happen. Like he's too he was injured his career too right, And he's too tall when you're when you're at tall, and he's not like great, a great mover after the catch or anything like that. He's gonna go down on contact. I know Greg Cosell loves him. Some Tucker Craft, who I really had heard of him till the last week or two. You have him branked pretty high. Any other hot tight

end takes for you. I do like Tucker Craft. I mean, you know, coming from a small school, he doesn't get a lot, he doesn't have a lot of hype, but he moves well. He's one of these big, broad shouldered, beefy fellows, you know, just the type of player to expect South Dakota State to play. Um Luke Shoonmaker from Michigan. I'm actually writing him up today. You know, he's a pretty athletic guy. He kind of writing me a cool cabet. Um oh, Dan, you have Musgrave twenty nine, So I

just assassinated one of your first round picks. You got to defend him now. So he's literally seven minutes and it's just like I like, I like, don't like the type of player he is. You know, he's like best it's Mike Kasecki. You can't it's hard to watch his tape and be like really excited about it. But what you have to do is sort of project what he could be in the future. I think, because you know, he hasn't played for most he didn't certainly he played

two games I think in twenty twenty two. Um, but you know, the athleticism, the burst, the movement skills, all that stuff. It's like, this is what we're projecting with all tight ends. But it seems worse than all the other guys. But maybe I'm wrong. That's just using my eyes. And like it's kind of like Brandon Jacobs. I always like Brandon Jacobs was awesome, but there was such a such an area where you could hit him that seems

like keeps getting hurt, I think. But that's fair. Um, I want to give you some context about this tight end class though, Like it feels like you're picking knits on Musgrave. But like all these guys are just absolutely elite athletes. So Kentley Platt does the RA score, the RAS score, and this goes back to nineteen eighty seventies. It's basically at like a it's a score that spits out. He spits out a score based on like your athletic testing,

in your size and all that. And out of one thousand ninety one tight ends, so's just over a thousand tight ends going back to nineteen eighty seven. Zach Coontz from Old Dominion is the first most athletic. He's the most athletic tight end ever. Darna Washington ranks fourteenth, Luke Shoemaker ranks sixteenth, Luke Musgrave ranks twenty sixth, Tucker Craft ranks thirty seventh, Samue Laporta ranks fifty seventh. And that doesn't even include Dalton Kincaid who didn't test, and Michael Mayer,

who is an above average tight end. Like this is an absolutely freak show group of tight ends, Like they're all just insanely athletic. Like you know it, I just cannot wait to see. I think you alluded to it earlier. Landing spot is really going to matter, Like Grego Sale says, like a lot of the times, a tight end auction is a function of the offense and a function of the quarterback. And I believe that. I do think that's

really true. So like if Luke Musgrave lands with the Cowboys, for instance, I'm gonna be extremely excited from a fantasy point of view, if he lands with a team that likes to rotate and have like three tight ends on the field at all times and really spread the ball around. I'm probably gonna be avoiding that. But landing spots can be key with a lot of these guys, but I think the bottom line is they're just really, really, really good athletes at the tight end position. That's why so

many people are excited about this draft class. And Zach Coons you mentioned from Old Dominion is six foot seven and had those incredible scores. So it's just another example of that. And I mean it seems like even with Kyle Pitts, it takes these NFL tight ends typically like till year three, if not maybe year two in some cases to flourish. I mean, it's just over and over

and over. And I wonder if this is the class where we get because of fit, because of the way that tight ends are being used differently than in the past, Like we can reverse that trend and they can get some year one stars out of the gig that's been so atypical. I think we kin. Honestly, if you look back at what Pits did as a rookie, he I think he set the record for most receiving yards from for a rookie, or at least he was second to

h too. I'm blanking on the name here. Uh you know, the very famous Dick Dickaway were you don't know Dicas First, I'm terrible. I'm terrible with names, Mike Dickau. Anyways, Yes, so I think we kind of forget that that cowle pits what over a thousand yards as a rookie. Even last year. Um, you know, Greg Dulcich looked pretty good

for the Broncos at times when he was playing. Um, you know, we're I think we're starting to see tight ends get involved in the passing game a little bit earlier than you know, historically speaking has has been the case.

And you know, offenses are changing, it's it's more spread out. Um, you know, teams are passing more generally speaking, and I think just as we get further further along, like teams a tight ends coming up through the ranks are more athletic and have run more routes throughout their careers, it's the same deal with all these receivers that are coming in. It's like you've been playing seven on seven since you're you know, six years old, and you're just more in

tune with the passing game. So, um, yeah, I think there is something there that we could see these tight ends start to be a little bit more productive early

on in their career. I actually heard an interesting note from Andy Staples this morning on the Athletic Podcast, and he was saying, with basketball kind of losing the like power forward position, as as like that sport evolves the power forward position where you got like six foot five, you know, two hundred and fifty two undred and sixty pound guys or whatever, they're starting to play football instead. They're starting to play tight ends. So we're like seeing

more and more of these guys. I thought that was a really interesting point. I hadn't really thought about that way, but maybe there's something there too works out for us. I well, right, And I look at it with every sport like bigger, every big athlete now is the best big athlete in their sports history, like tennis players, Like big tennis players are so much more athletic than big

tennis players used to be. It's certainly that way with basketball and Webin Yama and everything, and now we're seen it at like the big positions. Uh. I am a little concern and maybe this is more of like a next gen stats or analytics department type of thing. When you were listing off the names of the tight ends you named, there's a lot of Zachs, Luke's, Tyler's, Dalton's there. It all seems to be in like there a lot of Zacks and Lukes. So just just just something to

watch out for you. Okay, Danny, you're you're the best. Um. I don't know if you have any other hot uh draft takes, but it's been a it's been a pleasure to have you you on and if you do like you could just go out with some sort of mic drop here that we will then bring back up to you right after the draft or maybe after the two thousand and twenty three season. My favorite player in the draft is Devon a Chain running back out of Texas A and M who okayounds, I'm not saying he's the

best player, he's my favorite player. UM. So I really hope he lands with the team that will use him and turn him into the next work done. That's all. Where and where do you think he might go? By the way, just like what's a very rough round uh approximation, probably late second, early third or or some some part some part in the like later part of day two. I think I like that because this is kind of spice rakish here. Um. He always would have a former

and current. You know, hopefully soon we'll have him on on the show too. Spice Rack, he's gonna be mad when he hears this, and and uh he we'd always make him stick on. One player devon a chain is your guy. Yeah, I'm gonna think of Danny Kelly every time his name is brought up. And I'm gonna plays in the NFL. No, it's good because he's probably gonna be He's gonna be fun and good and if you nail this, the world is your oyster. Yeah, all right,

thanks Danny, we'll see you. Thank you. All right, thanks guys. All right, we did it. Did we get smarter? I think so? We talked. I mean part of it was like to to even hold the conversation, we had to do a certain amount of work going in. Yeah, smarter from that and then got smarter from these two fellows. No, it is good. The more you put into it, the more you get out on Draft day two and maybe we're basic is here, but it's like it's more fun

to talk about these skill position players. Yeah, I think we are basics. If you've gotta like do some do some tape study and whatnot, isn't it more fun to watch. This doesn't mean we're interior alignment or guards or even defensive ends or cornerbacks. You really grind in that like the route tree tape that the cornerbacks are doing. Like I guess you can. You can look at the highlights, you can look at the target certain things. But it's easier, frankly,

and more fun to do the wide receivers, running backs, quarterbacks. Yeah. And I think when your draft prep begins in you know, mid to late March, you've got to prioritize the fun spots. You're right. I feel bad for saying who on Devon Echen too, because he's a he's a day day two draft guy. I don't like that. He's sort of a rival in the Taje Spears is my favorite player of the draft. Uh, you know, kind of in that lane

that's sort of running back. Um justin Hey, I want you to give us a grade for this this show. Uh B minus. Okay, that's very fair. I think that is uh that is more than fair and consistent with previous grading on this show. On Wednesday, I won't be here. I can't wait to be on the beach in Hawaii. Put in my air pods. And I'm probably not doing this, but I should put on the Chaos pod starring Mark Sessler and guests. Yeah, Patrick claybon Um told me this

morning he's still in, so that's a win. And we're gonna confirm with Colleen and I think we're gonna try to cook up something spicy for you, Greg on that beach. I can't wait. I think that is going to drop on Thursday and we'll be back then with Mark and whatever he has cooking up. This was fun until then. Heed the call.