Mayfield is gonna take it and no signal. Now there is touchdown, Cleveland wide open. It's Landry for the touchdown. Second and goal, here's Samuel's out of the back field for the touchdown. And finally the Steelers are able to break through get it into the end zone, and four defensive penalties against the Browns help get the ball down the field. On third and goal, Mayfield into the end zone and cause for the touchdown. Carlson, how about his
first catch of the year. That was a beauty. Here's a flag as whoa, hello, whoa Mason Rudolph got a day to get out of there. What in the world to leave Miles Garrett swinging a helmet? Yeah, that'd be some objections. He was well after the play he tackled Rudolph. Rudolph didn't like the way that he was tackled. Oh gosh, oh man, oh, oh my goodness, rips the helmet off Rudolph's head and then eventually swings it and hits him in the head. And then Ogan Joby comes up and
hits Rudolph from behind. Gosh, that's one of the worst things I've ever seen on a professional sports field. That was Joe Buck and Troy Aikman describing a fight that is gonna be remembered a lot longer than the Cleveland Browns twenty one to seven victory on Thursday Night Football over the Pittsburgh Steelers. I am Greg Rosenthal alongside Chris Wesseling. Uh in your beautiful house, Chris. Unfortunately, Keach has gotta go to bed. She's got uh an early shift to
get to. And you know, we've got some wild things to talk about because this game was secondary and we'll get to the game uh in a bit. It was largely forget about. Big win for the Browns, but the last ten seconds in which Miles Garrett threw Mason Rudolf to the ground and then wound up taking his helmet off and hitting Mason Rudolph in the head with the helmet is obviously something we've never seen in NFL history.
You know, we're trying to think of similar circumstances. Albert Haynesworth stomping and kicking Andre Garrard the Cowboys center in two thousand six comes to mind. He was suspended five games for that, But it was about as ugly as it gets, And the immediate thought is camp Brown's fans just enjoy anything, and then what is the NFL gonna
do with Myles Garrett. Yeah, I think we both mentioned the Albert Hainesworth thing to each other, and then I think, to me, it also reminded me a little bit of that West of His playoff game debaccle with the Bengals and Steelers just losing control at the end of the game. Uh. In this case, it's really markets Pouncey will be suspended, but it's really hard to blame the Steelers for much
of this. They lost two guys, two receivers to helmet the helmet hits from an undisciplined Browns team, and then Myles Garrett just lost control just he went outside of his body. It seemed like he hit Rudolph late on the play, which I don't think should be lost in what happens because immediately fans say, hey, you know, Rudolph was grabbing for his helmet. He was trying to take
his off as if he was starting it. First of all, it doesn't really matter if if that was true and he started anyways, but Garrett knew what he was doing. It's eight seconds left in the game. Rudolph clearly let go of the past, and Garrett was getting in an extra shot. And it's funny because Garrett has such a smart guy. You know, he writes the poetry, he's he's
such a smart player the way he plays um. But he has a reputation of getting in those little extra shots, like he has a little of a reputation among players or broadcaster just just like he pushes the envelope and you like that sometimes as a player, but I don't know what or as a fan, But I don't know what it was in this case that he he felt like he had to get that extra shot and then what happened, and he felt like he had to, you know,
take Rudolph's helmet. And I don't think there's anything you can really do to explain it. It's just a question of like whether we see him again this year, And everyone immediately after the game is saying, we can't see him again this year if we're trying to protect players, and that's probably true. There's six games left in the year. I usually just go off precedent. There's really no precedent for this. To me, this is a lot worse than
what Haynsworth did and Haynesworth got five games. Garrett obviously has no previous problem with the league, but it certainly wouldn't be surprising if that's it for Miles Garrett this year. Yeah, it's hard to reconcile that reputation he has for being such an intelligent player in a poetic, uh sort of personality with what we saw on the field. And it reminded me of a passage I've I've said before from Bringing the Heat or where Andre Waters the Eagle Safety
in the early nineteen nineties, he had transformed. He had found a way to transform himself into an alter ego where he got himself so worked up and let me read this passage, if you indulge me for a minute, has got things underlined. I mean this they was underlying long before tonight. He just had it ready in case has ever happened. When Andre suited up to play, he was no longer Andre Waters, the loving Christian gentleman who greeted callers on his answering machine with gospel music in
a sweetly intoned God Bless you. He was someone else, his overman, someone know to him and his teammates as the dre Master, and he talks about making and sure he doesn't lose himself in that dark fantasy when he goes there during the game, and um, this is the last passage I'll say on it, just one sentence to Andre. The division between real self and Dre Master is so complete. He startled when real people in the real world, real world confused the on field antics with him. And and
I'm not trying to excuse what Myles Garrett did. I'm just trying to shed some light on how a person off the field can be one way and on the field just lose himself in the moment like that. It was almost like he just lost total control of everything and was enraged and in a fury. You you hear players talk about that all the time. I mean, some players do it in kind of a funny way, where who was it that says he's batman on the field, But you hear it say all the time that it's
almost like a flipping switch. And I've also talked to players who say, you have to be a little crazy. You play football most of the most of the positions, like you have to have something in you that you can turn on and get in touch with the most you know, rugged primal part of yourself two or else you're not going to survive. And Garrett, it's funny, was a beast tonight. Garrett was awesome. He dominated Villaneueva, who's a pretty solid left tackle for the Steelers. I mean,
he clowned him all night. The Browns defensive line, largely because of Garrett dominated this game as bad as Mason Rudolph was. Uh. A lot of it was because he was under pressure and because the Steeler's offensive line was losing so much. That's not gonna make the punishment for Garrett. Uh any lass And you're and I think what the NFL will look at is what could have happened, which is just obvious. You know, he he could have caused serious damage. Who knows, he could have killed. I mean
he you're swinging a helmet at someone's unprotected head. It could have had such a worse outcome. And I think the NFL should treat it as if you have that outcome, because it's really the action. It's not whether he was able to connect or not that that you're gonna be punishing. You don't ever see teammates after a game failed to stick up for for their guy and in this situation.
Odell Beckham and Jarvis Landry were on the set with Colling Wolf and the Gang and they were presented with the video for the first time and they just said, over and over again, it's ugly. It's ugly. And Baker Mayfield, when he was asked about it by Aaron Andrews, was kind of similar, there's no way you can defend your teammate there. You just have to say, this is part of our undisciplined mess. We can't do that. We have to be better than that, and we it's just totally unacceptable.
It was. Yeah, it was alarming, Um, not alarming, but uh stark, Yeah, jarring to see Baker say that and clearly disappointed, not just in the actions in the moment, and he's friends with Mason Rudolph, so yeah, that's that's all part of it, but disappointed because he knows he's lost. Garrett. I mean, they sounded like they lost the game. And I meant to start the podcast with that quote from Jarvis Landry that he said to Colleen Wolf, our friend, where he said, you know, the ending of this game
just takes the spirit out of it. Like Joe Thomas was talking about the game in this win, and Landry watching the video said, the ending of this game takes that that joy away from it. Not only is it going to be the conversation, but you're losing one of your best players. And it ties into what's been a
running theme with this Freddie Kitchen team. You mentioned it's a Marius Randall got kicked out of this game too, uh for a head hunting hit Juju Smith Schuster left earlier in the game, Uh to a hit that wasn't even called that should have been called. On that exact same play, Mason Rudolph was hit in the head and a for a pretty routine roughing the passer. But it just goes to this Brown's team where at one point tonight they had as many penalty yards as they had
yards allowed. I mean, they were dominating this game. There was no reason for the Steelers to be in this game, you know, late into the fourth quarter, and it does get to some of not just the inconsistencies on offense, but just the general sloppiness and lack of discipline they've had, and then it kind of comes out in the worst way you can imagine. Yeah, and I really have a hard time pinning Miles Garrett's actions on Freddie right now,
I I agree with that. I agree with that, but it does speak to this season long theme of the Browns. When you think of the two thousand nineteen Browns, you're going to think of the complete and utter lack of discipline. Although I don't know, you know, you have a you have a team wide you know, culture or a way of doing things of like, then maybe getting those extra
hits in is somehow a little acceptable. I mean, Myles Garretts had plenty of rough in the pastor penalty is this is not the first one, and I don't know if it's tolerated or what it's. It's more of the initial action of him throwing rut off to the ground that but the GM tolerates and in the players he chooses. He he is a lot more liberal about, you know, overlooking things than other GM. So Maria's Pouncey after the game. Marcus pounce said, after the game, we'll see how serious
the league is about protecting players. You could see in his eyes, Uh, he was furious, and he called for a year long suspension of Miles Garrett. I think Pouncey will certainly be suspended to. He went full right, because I get defending um your quarterback, but ultimately you're gonna you're gonna get suspended to for kicking and punching. And then Ogan job was kind of the most ridiculous thing
of the whole thing. He walks up to Rudolf after it's already calming down, as if he just wants to be part of it and he's not gonna try to take some big shot. He just decides to push rudoff to the ground just to say like, hey, you're you're at all, you know what, And he got kicked out of the game, and he'll be suspended probably because of that, just because it was so silly and unnecessary. And this is a Browns team that we will transition to talking
about that hasn't no one on their schedule. It's just it's just a row of tomato can after tomato can into weeks sixteen, and not that they played lights out tonight, but they're doing. They have enough talent that they can overcome the sloppiness. And sometimes NFL seasons are about the schedule. I feel like that it's Mark has been looking for the stretch all season. You know what, Mark has been on it. He thought they were going to start two and five. Then they start two and five. I think
they basically did. And then he thought that maybe they make a run, and I think they could. And it's rare that it's that predictable. But now that we're ten games in, it is this predictable. And sometimes NFL seasons really are about the schedule, Like the Patriots one eleven games with Matt Castle because of the schedule largely, I mean, they took advantage of good coaching and everything. Let's look at the rest of the on schedule for a second, just so we get kind of an idea of how
these suspensions and everything else could affect them. They play the Dolphins next week in Cleveland, then they go back to Pittsburgh in a game that's gonna have, you know, all sorts of attention. Then they host the Bengals, Then they're at the Cardinals. So the the toughest game they have in the next four weeks is going against the Pittsburgh team. Uh that's led by one of the worst quarterbacks in the league, who just lost their number one receiver,
Smith Schuster. We'll see when he comes back. That just lost James Conner again after about a quarter or two, and I think is in the mix, if not the obvious answer for the number thirty two offense in the league. I mean, this is the Steelers dream I think of making this run. I know their schedules either. I think got a reality check tonight because they've had bad luck with the injuries. But they're also one of the worst three or four offenses in the league. They've been that
every week all season and they're not making any runs. Sorry. Well, we heard the stat during the game that they had scored six offensive touchdowns during their four game winning streak, and that's almost hard to believe. I say that right. I honestly thought they were talking about the whole year. I really did. The offense has been that bad. And
one of my favorite stats is drive success rate. They are in the bottom four and drive success right, and we'll fall behind the Dolphins after this week, and maybe it's time we get to some Mason Rudolph talk. I mean, you've been waiting for this. First of all, I do kind of want to point out and just paying a picture, uh for the listeners when this all started happening. You know, there's only eight seconds, like we were about to start taping,
and it happens. West immediately jumps up to the library as if he was like Batman going to the bat Cave and was gonna get his weapons and his little batmobile out. But instead West's superhero is like a football library where he knew the exact page on the exact book that was already outlined that he wanted to go find. And that's why Chris Wesley makes the big Box. Well, to be fully honest, it took about seven minutes to
find the passage. But um, the just take Okay, let's let's get into the Rudolph I guess for a second, and we're gonna talk also about the Browns. We're gonna take our time because I do think there's some positive things about Baker Mayfield and and what happened with the Browns tonight. But West is clearly chomping at the bit because, um, if if you were a Mason Rudolph Doubter, this was like You're coming out party. It was like Sea World, like this is what I've been watching. Well, it's Dan.
Dan is right, and Dave Damaschik is right. It's sort of unfair to expect great things out of Mason Rudolph with the decks stacked against him to the degree it has been his receivers dropping balls, his running back out, his receivers got injured during the game. It wasn't the best game from their offensive line. But I think that Dan and I have been seeing this from way different angles, and my point is that the reason altar kind of besides the point. It's that the game is too fast
for Mason Rudolph. And I don't even think it's an inexperienced thing. It's a playing style and skill set thing. For whatever reason, his throwing motion frequently puts his release at the arm of a defender or the back of a blocker because of spatial awareness and slow so slow delivery. It's uncanny how often he's delivering the ball as he's stepping into her away from pressure. That's what I've been
saying all along. I think he would he needs a complete makeover in the way he plays the position in order to get the results that we would want from him. That's been my point all along, and I think we saw that tonight. He just can't win playing this style of quarterback. I mean, he's not it right now and uh, everything around him. Yeah, that that is a contributing factor. But I think you can isolate some quarterback skills and play beyond that. He's throwing up hope balls. It's just
taken too long, You're right. I mean Aikman said it. He basically just said he's heavy footed and he just kind of stands there. It's it's the Mike Glennon thing. I mean, it's the right It's the line between is he courageous and can take a hit or is he just inviting pressure and getting hit because that, you know, because he's not moving because you just have to be able to move, and the Steelers offense, you do feel
for him, and you feel for Randy Fickner. And I mean they're playing with all their third stringers and the line isn't even which is supposed to be good asn't even playing that well either, So you feel for him. There's no like obvious answers. I mean, they are so
bad on third and short yardage. They said they were third three for twelve on on fourth and one or third and one this year, and they go for it and they turn it into you know, three for thirteen, and there was another third and two later in the game, and Rudolph's throwing the ball because Jalen Samuel says, no chance to pick the you know, first down up either,
And that's why I just can't buy. I know, you're forcing a ton of turnovers and I love this defense, and you'll probably win some more games, but it's hard to imagine them getting to ten, and I think you'll probably need ten. It's not often you'll see about a thirty play disparity between past attempts and RUSSI attempts, where there's forty more thirty more pass attempts and you average more net yards per carry than net Yard's proposit tempt. I have no idea to play. I mean, the play
calling on short roaded situations was boggling my mom. But I don't know what else you're gonna do. As you said, their best play for the last five or six weeks is under throwing a deep ball and getting the p I, which is an underrated play in general. I agree more
quarterbacks should do it more often. Do you have any anger towards Myles Garrett for kind of putting, you know, a bit of a somber serious tone on this recap when really you want to be like dancing in the aisles on you know, Mason Rudolph's grave because of a black cart. That is not the way I would say it. I would say that it would be a more lively, jovial conversation about perhaps both of these quarterbacks, if if
it wasn't overshadowed by what happened late in the game. Well, let's let's at least give Baker some do because I know you could watch this game and say, look, they had twelve drives, they only scored two touchdowns. There was a ton of three and outs. Uh, you know they got the third touchdown on the best play Mayfield made all night, um where he you know, buys time in the pocket and and kind of finishes that the game
off with kind of a classic Baker play. And if you've been watching, I think he makes three of those plays every week. Those plays have still existed. It's all the other plays that have been the problem. I actually think he's played very composed and smart the last two weeks. Not spectacular, but he's eliminated those bad plays. I think he's making good decisions. He just and he said it
to you know, the broadcast crew too. I think he's feeling a little more calm in the offense, and crazily enough, I think the biggest problem he has right now is Othell Beckham. And I know Beckham has made made a big play in this game, and you got a touchdown. You're gonna get some some big plays. But every time people say, oh, that's a terrible Baker Mayfield throw, it's the it's the Odell Beckham and they're not on the
same page. And this has been happening since week one, week two, and you had another plate tonight where Odell Beckham got his hands on the ball and didn't come down with that. Beckham in Mayfield are in a funk and Colleen asked, you know, Odell about it, and he was was about as honest as you would expect, saying it's a growing process. We were trying to get there and we're not there. And Mayfield is not too efficient throwing to Beckham, but he's been pretty efficient throwing to
everyone else, especially Cream Hunt the last a couple of games. Yeah, I look at Cream Hunt and this is gonna sound like hyperbole, but he's sort of the Brown's offenses answer to what Menca Fitzpatrick gives the Steelers this missing piece of the puzzle who was so important for their quarterback and plays a position and passing down back that the Browns have needed and sort of doubles as a receiver
that's been a huge plus for their offense. He's he's playing a major role as a chain mover for them, um, and I love that addition for them and for and for Baker. It's funny because you know when they signed Cream Hunt, everyone you know it was upset about it and and killed them and and I get that, and then yet you don't once he comes down the field and he starts bawling out, and he's looked awesome these last two weeks, and he was awesome for a big
chunk of his time in Kansas City. No one. I haven't seen any any criticism of John Dorsey or any peeps about that. So that's sort of it's this whole dichotomy of watching football of what you're going to accept as a fan. On the field, It's like, we love Myles Garrett. Everyone hates what happened tonight. There's always this strange Poston pull and you know what Hunt did, But the reality is he looks great as a receiver. I mean, the third down catchy made to keep the first drive
going that's set up the Beckham touchdown was outrageous. And then the third down catch you made in the second drive to keep that drive going and they didn't capitalize and it was just as good, and he kicked started their game winning drive. I don't think it's it's a stretch to say, like he is already one of their more most valuable players and their offense is gonna need to be better. Mayfield said it. They're gonna need to be better, especially if Garrett and and even Ogan jovis out.
Like their offense is gonna need to be legit good. It's just kind of been getting better, but it's still looking pretty average. It's gonna be need to be legit good. And they need to start maximizing because they're still not nearly maximizing the talent that they got. The pieces are there, and you win some and you lose some. In this analysis, you know, I can gloat a little bit on Mason Rudolph, I guess, but I also thought, I mean, it's it's
unsavory at this point. It almost feels like spiking. You know, well, I mean, I'm just playing along to your narrative here, but I also expected Baker Mayfield and Odell Beckham to light up the skies this year, and I was dead wrong about that to the point where, like you said, this is a problem with an offense that has the pieces to be doing much better. And I think you you wanted to check in on what I thought of where I stand on Baker Mayfield. Now, oh that's right,
See what you look at you? Yeah, I mean, I'm just failing as a host and you're like trying to drag me along with you know, you're like hands. This would have remembered to uh, you know, present this question we talked about before. And by the way, if you're listening to this podcast, Dan Hansis came in and did a bang up job as the guest host of Game Debut, which airs on NFL Network on Saturday. I just thought it's a tough spot to go in. It's like Mason
Rudolph coming in. You know, he hadn't never seen the playbook before. He's got you know, who is that Steelers receiver out there catching passes tonight? Tevin Jones? Right, I'm Tevin Jones. You know, fumbling, fumbling catches and then he knocked it out. So you know, you guys could DVR
that it's airing on NFL Network a couple of times Saturday. Anyways, he would have remembered to ask you the question, Chris Westling, about Baker Mayfield and his play right now and in this season, because I really just wanted to frame it that you were the guy last year that said he's already a top ten quarterback and we all were right there with you, and I believed in it um, but you said he's already there. There's no question. I don't
need to see anymore. That's who he is. And I wanted to kind of come back because I think we've been fair with Baker, like letting him go through uh some young mistakes. But ten games in, what what are you thinking about that assessment? Well, I think for me, the anticipation is the fun of following football, finding out guys who are going to be good. And I readily readily admit that I get carried away with that sometimes, and this is a good lesson. I believe in Baker Mayfield.
I think he's he obviously can make all the throws on the field that you wanted to make he's good in the pocket. When he's playing well and seeing the field well, I think you have to question how well he's seeing the field and how well he's working with his play cooler this year. But I I I firmly believe in him, and I also think there is something too when all these old krusty guys around the league
are making fun of how many commercials he's in. I think there's probably word going around the league that he didn't work hard enough this offseason. And I think that a young player who's obviously talented and in my mind he has superstar ability, there's nothing wrong with having a setback and coming back stronger and forcing yourself to make changes. We see it in grace great athletes all the time.
You have to overcome adversity, and in this situation, maybe it's healthy for him to have a year where he's got to go back and change a few things and look at himself and say, what what do I need to do to keep up with Lamar Jackson. It's crazy that Lamar right now is is the class of that quarterback class for for this season. And I would not take Lamar Jackson long term over Baker Mayfield. I know that sounds wild, but I don't think so. I think
a lot of people I disagree. I would take lamar um, but I think a lot of people in the NFL would probably still agree with you seeing the field is it? Uh? And sometimes I think it's you know, and yet we saw him see the field last year. You don't want to put it on his heights sometimes, but I have. Sometimes it's just been like a couple of plays. First of all, he's getting the ball better down all the time, like all the time. He leads the league in that uh.
And there's been a couple of times this year where I just wondered if on a particular play with that was the factor. But it seems more like his mind is just not seeing things clearly that The difference in the last two weeks, I guess, compared to everything else is that he wasn't He hasn't been bailing out of the pocket. He's been moving well in the pocket and making people miss and then making a play inside or outside of the pocket. And that's part of what made
him special last year. So I loved watching that from him the last couple of weeks. And I think even without Miles gar assuming he's gone for a while, I think Baker can play better, especially with a nice UH set up matchups. I know that you've gotta face the Steelers defense again, but I think he can continue to play better and better and carry this team over some bad teams and have this team playing meeting and full
football when they late Week sixteen against the Ravens. I do believe that it's wild how quickly these things can swing. And we pointed out earlier than year with Kirk Cousins that you know he he is looked upon as a laughing stock to open up the season, and then all of a sudden, three weeks later, everyone's pointing out he's leading the league in pass the rating and the Vikings are ruling. Baker Mayfield can turn the narrative around in one month. He can. The Browns cannot. Because this fight
is one of the craziest things we've ever seen. I mean, it is. It is not uh, it's not hyperbole to say that the NFL hasn't seen anything quite like this in terms of an on field UH fight, And so the aftermath is gonna take days and we've already heard from Garrett. Would depending on who you want to listen to,
was contrite or was not Contrite enough. He seemed a little dazed, which makes sense because I don't think anyone they're kind of is going to realize the enormity of everything that happened as actually how it's going to affect his livelihood for the rest of this season. So look, we're gonna be talking about this for a while, and this is gonna be on Freddie Ketchens ledger, whether he likes it or not, and how he handles the aftermath
and how this entire team handers the aftermath. This um is gonna be telling and it's gonna be really important to kitchens future. Um. But it's better to do that with a win, right absolutely, you know it's better to do that with a little uh hope for the playoffs. So sorry Mark that you didn't get to enjoy your I know that's like we we immediately went there watching the game. We we immediate when this started happening. We
were like, oh my god. And the immediate thought was like, why can't Mark, why can't the Brown can't just have one nice win? You could you could tell, I mean, even Jarvis and O'Dell you could at one point they were trying to get the crowd in and you could just feel like the air had been sucked out of the room. But they'll be back at work and h you know. The nice thing is they get a nice long week off and then they play the weekend off and then they play the Dolphins. So the Browns are
back in our lives in a big way. I'm sure we'll have some updates, maybe even a suspension to talk about on Sunday. Until then, I think we should get going. I mean, we're breaking records here. We mini pods for Chris Westling and Keisha, who's probably not asleep because you know, I speak loud indoors, but man, Chris really speaks loud indoors. So I don't feel nearly as bad. So let's let Keisha sleep and let's uh get to Sunday. We will talk to you the h E