Top 10 NFL Tight Ends of 2024 and Settling the Kelce-Gronk Debate

The Around the NFL podcast Big Bone.

Randy is beautiful from the Chris Westling podcast studio.

It's Around the NFL.

Yeah he is, because beauty comes in all shape and soysus case in point. I am Dan Hansis I am joined by Greg Rosenthal.

Ladies two options on the spectrum.

I mean you might want a third option. I don't know, but yes, I think you're only two options. We show the various ways men can be beautiful and you can check that out are differing, you know types on my last Instagram post on our little photo shoot we took one day when Mark didn't show.

Up for striking the photos, striking the differences in physical builds. Sometimes we forget because we work so closely and then you see a photo.

By the way, to be clear, Randy is Randy Bullock that the everybody knows that I know, but just to make sure, because we do have someone in the chair also name is Randy.

Well, you're talking about Big Funk, Big Funk.

I don't want the listeners who are just joining the show and maybe weren't work with us.

But this is such a twenty fourteen season.

It's such a Greg slash Larry David moment. I mean, like, why are you connecting the dot? You know that's borderline body shaming itself.

I'm not connecting any dots. We have a we have three. I'm sorry that the people with the microphone right now one of them is named Randy. I think it's okay to tell the people about the history of Randy Bullock from the Texas.

Just being a little fresh. It was Mother's Day. You go see your mom's like, have you been exercising? And then you come that one I've got.

We all get it.

Sometimes you get the birthday gift that's like Jim closed, It's like, oh yeah, all right, mom, I got you. By the way, Uh, there is another there's another body type not in the studio right now. Mark Sessler is not with us today, but he'll be back on Wednesday.

Leave it there. Coming up on today's show.

It's many thirteenth, and yes, happy Mother's Day to all the moms who listened to this show, which there are dozens and everyone. I hope you were good to your mom. Were you good to Deb Rosenthal?

Sure?

I mean she's in Massachusetts, so it would have been nice to be there. Yeah, spoke enough and some flowers, the same stuff talked t had a big week. She had a special art show in Martha's Vineyard. If anyway it happens that to be in Martha's Vineyards, it's still going the next three weeks check out at the Vineyard Playhouse with Debbie Rosenthal retrospective.

What I mean do you ever think do you ever think you're or brother Dean correct? Yeah, a very talented musician. Yeah, like almost a virtuoso, right.

Went to Yeah classical he composes classical music and went to school for it. And yeah, he's great, more talented than you.

Your mother.

She's actually has showcases and arguably more talented. In the Rosenthal Power rankings, you might be third. That's all just throwing it out. There's an option. It's me Rade, I got your back.

Tom. Give him some to think that he lays his head on the pill.

We decided who was more talented when I took him out as like a twelve year old on a tennis court.

So he's fourth. You can figure dubs or you can.

Because it's May thirteenth, we're gonna do random stuff like just talk about tight ends today.

We're going to talk about tight ends.

Tight end palooza with John Ledyard, who is a really really smart football guy who does the Audibles and Analytics podcast, among other things, and he's going to join this on that conversation.

But before we do that, let's hit the news just overall.

It hit me this morning about three thirty four in the morning. Woke up staring straight at the ceiling and said to myself, it's not just another day, it's two day. And uh, maybe that's just another way of saying attack this datement an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. But yeah, it was a it was a great day.

Oh my goodness. Jim Harbaugh.

Sometimes you have to pinch yourself and remind yourself that Jim Harbaugh is back in the NFL.

I love it. I love that he's Justin Herbert's coach. I love that he's the Chargers coach. Just gives them a certain stature they just I've been I've been wanting out of him. I've been I've been wishing that they have every year when I predict.

Them to do well and they and I know you will again this year. Yeah, Now, isn't it Is it fair to say that? And maybe this is just like my perspective on it that.

Seems a little bit more off kilter than his last NFL stay, like not not deranged or anything, but maybe eight percent more kind of old Jim.

He's sixty years old, so I think we're starting to find this. We're in our forties, and you see this with older friends or family members, Like as you get older, I think you become even more of who you are, Like whatever care you had about trying to hold back the parts of yourself that maybe weren't as you know, like just boring or average, and you're just like, he doesn't. He's Jim Harbo. He just won the national championship. He's going to lean into all things hard.

Okay, I feel like there might be a tipping point in that realm when you're the leader that's an organization.

But maybe we're not there yet.

By the way, just out of curiosity, because there is, and check it out on YouTube.

He's behind these.

Like shaded glasses and the eyes are kind of bulging a little bit, and he's looking toward the heavens as he's saying these kind of crazy things. I just figure, let's hear what it sounds like with a little music music accompaniment, just just overall hit me.

This morning about three thirty four in the morning, woke up staring straight at the ceiling and said to myself, it's not just another day, it's two day. And uh, maybe that's just another way of saying attack this day when an enthusiasm unknown to mankind.

But yeah, it was a it was a great day. And I mean, you know what I mean now what I was expecting. But I see what you're where you're going here.

I'm just saying, if you like, just look at it from a little bit of a different angle. Yeah, it's a little disturbing that he's running an NFL team now, Like, if I'm a Chargers fan, I'm ninety percent thrilled about this, ten percent terrified.

I I hear that there's a little bit of terrified.

Like he John Harby always has thought, has had that little there's like a little bit I'm a little scared of John.

What's really that John? Jim is like that to another level.

The thing I'd be scared about is, yes, the history of guys, after all the success that he had, at some point they get to one stop and then you look at it in the rear view mirror and you're like, oh, that was kind of a bridge too far.

That was like the last contract that he got, So that's not But I.

Disagree with you that John gives me any type of similar vibes, if that's what you're saying, because John is no doubt intense as well, and he could be very demonstrative and when he gets fired up, but there's just something a little different about Jim. John would agree with you on that. Iagine I agree. All right, let's get to the news finally. Yes, the schedule will be released. We can say this not breaking news. It's coming on Wednesday, and we will our schedule this week will reflect that

The game will be on NBC.

Of course, Gregi a rematch of the AFC title Game, which was played in Baltimore. The Chiefs won that game seventeen to ten, and then won their third title in five years. They are the Kings of the Castle, so it makes sense that they kick off the season last year a great opener where they got picked off by one point by the Lions. That is the Kadarius Tony game, as I recall it as a Patrick Mahomes and I think Katarius Tony fantasy owner.

But this game should be similarly exciting to watch.

Yeah, I wasn't thrilled, just because I like the Ravens and this is a tough spot.

Though you know Lines pulls it off. Why not the Ravens.

It's obviously as one of the most exciting games on the calendar. I wanted Texans personally. I just thought that'd be nice, the new fresh CJ. Stroud opening night, like new quarterback versus mohammeas, but I guess I'll settle.

For a ring. Yeah.

My only quibble is the because that's why I thought Chiefs Lines was perfect last year. Yes, Intra conference or whatever these mega tilts for that, could you know, decide tiebreakers at the end of the season happening in week one after you know nobody even plays in the preseason anymore. It's a little early for a game this Titanic. But also we're all going to be, you know, chopping at the bit to watch it, so you can't really get after the NFL in that one either.

So that will be how the season starts.

And then I believe is that this year they'll have a Friday night game also.

The Brazil game, so NBC gets back to back games. I think it's Peacock Friday Night in Brazil, Eagles, Packers and Ravens.

You start you on Thursday. How about that? How about that?

In other news, we also got to get the international games get their own little mini show on NFL network Wednesday morning to announce the international game. So that will be before the rest of the schedule.

I have an announcement, by the way, that will be coming up for the international audience. So I'll say no more. But that's a tease as well. In other news, you know, connected to the schedule. It's all connected. In other news, fire the trope alert off because the Las Vegas Raiders.

Want you to know. Yeah, go ahead, the.

True Antonio Pierce with that interim tagged freshly ripped off, has a quarterback decision to make well. I think most of us assume it's Gardner Minshew who they signed in free agency, who will be the QB.

But Pierce said, uh, this week, when was it? Did he say it? There's I believe that over the weekend and.

Over the weekend that Aidan O'Connell has quote earned the right to have the first snap.

Do we have the sound of that.

Aiden is already kind of taking a bull by the horn and he's leading away and Mention's right there doing as well. Two guys has played and he saw him play against each other last year and they went neck to neck. But I'm really excited to see what happens. I think he's gonna be a process. We're gonna stick to the process. But as I said before, Aiden's earned the right to go out there and get the first nap.

Mmmm.

It was actually a little surprised by that. I mean, they gave Gardner minshew a lot of playing time. It is worth remembering. And Steve Paulozzola from the PFF pot I did last week, actually he was the first person I heard say like he wants to see what Aidan O'Connell can do. I was like, well, that's the take I haven't heard, and then you think about it. It's like, I mean, Aidan O'Connell was pretty solid for a rookie. I put it this way. He was a lot better

Gardner, Uh, not that crazy, but I find it to be unlikely. But you know, he's playing the game the way he wants.

To play, by the way.

I do like the idea of AFC West, Antonio Pierce and Jim Harbaugh.

I feel like they're not gonna like each other. I see like a nice little feud. You think that too funk right, He's shaking his head, but it's weird.

Eric Roberts is in the building, he's in the production you know, bass here, and he's just watching over Randy shaves his shoulder. It kind of reminds me it's like what Bill Belichick was trying to avoid when Bill Parcells tried to name him the coach of the Jets.

Right, it just sounds like another brilliant decision by management. Here's what's behind this anyway?

Well, my baby is due soon. No, I think it's good. Yeah, I think it makes sense. I'm just it's funny watching literally have him watched.

He has sat in for.

Me a couple times in the past weeks for like ultra sound appointment stuff like that. So I don't know what's more stressful, me being out of the building and knowing this is happening, or me being like not five feet of this and like kind of I don't want to backseat drive, you know?

Right? What how about for funk?

Like the idea of someone not just figuratively looking over your shoulder, but literally looking over your shoulder and telling you whether you're doing things right or wrong.

I'm used to it. I've known Eric for like five plus years.

Okay, is he one of those buddies judging.

I would impressed that one. It's like, I wouldn't. I wouldn't hit that sound. I'm like, okay, for sure, unbelieve that's classic team.

That's how it goes, how it goes In other quarterback news, Uh, you know bully to the Bears.

They're not playing that game.

Caleb Williams is supposed to be the guy who's going to take the franchise out of permanent mediocrity.

Uh.

They pick him number one overall and they are not messing around because he is the QB one on May thirteenth.

Good job, guys. Here is Matt Eberfluse on that decision? Has he even told that he's the starter? Going and training gept you and have to have that conversation. No conversation, he's the starter. I mean, look at this ebra Flus. I like that. Actually he looks good. I mean totally different.

The flu sclow up is really crazy this news I liked you said that, and he said, you know what he wants to see out of Caleb boyas just don't get ahead of yourself and everything. It made me think for a sec I was like, oh, yeah, well of course he's, you know, the starter, but who are even the options?

And I was like, it's.

Tyson Bagent and Brett Rippin. I wouldn't mind a veteran in there. I wouldn't mind Ryan Tannehill behind Caleb boy Maybe Ryan Tannel doesn't want that kind of gig. I don't know, but you're one injury away from Tyson Bagent and you don't need a veteran there to maybe help out your guy.

Or, as Mark Sessler would say, Brett Rippiam. All right, so let's see, let's see, let's see, let's see news. This just went on before we This just went down right before we started. We have a major payday for Antoine Winfield.

Four years, eighty four million dollar extension, forty five million dollars guaranteed. I want to see how this is structured there. You can make it sound any sort of way, but it's probably the best contract for a safety year.

Here is an ever huge, huge headline banner headline on nfl dot COM's landing page. Winfield Junior becomes NFL's highest paid dB.

History. Okay, that's where I will. I want to see. I want to see the details.

Is it like an extension off the franchise tag that he had already? I don't even know. I guess not. That's amazing. I think he probably is the best safety right now to bet on. I think his season last year was so exceptional it's kind of hard for a safety to repeat that season year after year.

The guys that can do that become Hall of Famers.

He's been a little not up and down, because he's always been a very good player, but he's had two of these seasons out of four where he really popped out and like, they would not have made the playoffs if not for Antoine Winfield making these plays, especially in that Panthers game where he stopped him from going up big, and they would have basically been knocked out of the playoffs.

So he has made an incredible amount of good plays.

Yeah, considering Derwin James is healthy, he's probably safety one right now in the NFL.

Yeah, the last huge safety contract I remember is Jamal Adams.

I know there's been others, but Minca got a nice Niga did too.

Adams, for instance, was known more as like a box safety guy that can do some damage. But Winfield is a real all around type player.

And this is interesting. Schefter pointed out he.

Is the first time it's the first time a safety has been named the highest paid defensive like in NFL history, So that, I mean, that's a big deal. And again the numbers and how it's cooked up, maybe it's not quite that.

But also he's one of those rare.

Guys that was a first team All Pro and did not make the Pro Bowl.

How does that happen? I don't know. My Pro Bowls are overrated.

We'll get to that later on our historic look back at the tight end position.

Okay, yeah, a good call.

In other news, the Jets, they have really improved their roster.

I've talked about that. I've, you know, I've.

I'm trying to keep it in perspective and understand so much cautious optimism and a lot of the reason for their you know, hitting the brakes on just full out optimism is you know, the Nathaniel Hackett of it all, which is an offensive coordinator that is clearly was out of his depth last year once Aaron Rodgers went out

Let's hear some Nate Hackett. By the way, we got to hear some Nate.

There was this this idea like, why wouldn't you replace him now? Connor Hughes of s n Y, who used to cover the Jets on their beat and but still remains attached to the team in some ways, said that the team did internally Greg Look made quote legitimate attempts this offseason to hire someone who would essentially replace Hackett, not as a new offensive coordinator, but a title above who would run the show.

My question of that is an easy one. It's like, well, then why did they do it? Right? Just my name's Nathaniel Hackett. Thanks, it's nice to see you out here.

I mean, if they were that serious about it, how can they weren't able to identify someone and now instead you're just going to go into this year the same as last year, and it's a legitimate concern.

Well, they have to answer questions about that too. That's my biggest takeaway from this, which is that's uncomfortable for him, for Robert Sala, for this to be out there. It's just gonna be brought up, like if they struggle on offense to start the season. The reporting of it's a little odd though too. You know, Hughes puts it in

Am shot against the mail bag guy. No, I'm just saying, yeah, a little bit. Whoa.

But it's not like a regular beat reporter anymore either. It's I don't know, we can't really who cares about Connor Hues is like the deep dive into what he does and how much writing is doing. But maybe this just for him makes sense.

And to be fair, they were going to try to hire someone above him. It sounded like he wouldn't get fired in that scenario, but they were.

They were trying to which would appease hypothetically the Rogers.

And I don't I don't take anything into the fact that he, you know, he noted how often Rogers, you know, I guess this is in the pre you know, in the practices, would just completely change plays based on what he was seeing and not run Hackett's call. And if that was a sign that the OC is not a good sc literally every o c Aaron Rodgers has ever had like was a problem, didn't ever expect That's just why Aaron Rodgers does, and it's mostly what you know has helped Aaron Rodgers be great.

So I'm not holding that against the thing you hang it that part of it. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Damn, I don't know. I mean, I don't know.

Let's move on, Bill Belichick, you know, finally, you know, I'm not happy with the way Bill is being meant to sing for his supper this offseason. But here's one thing I can get behind because this feels like it's in his wheelhouse and doesn't put him in a situation beneath him. Bill Belichick will appear every week on The Manning Cast this season, so that is the alternate Monday night football telecast that has both Manning brothers.

So I guess he'll I don't imagine he'll be.

On the whole show, Greg, but he'll be on a section of the show, maybe one quarter of the show. And that sounds like it's gonna make that show even better. Because if I could say there is one negative to the Manning Cast, it's very when it goes guest heavy, which is the nature of the show.

If it's a guest I'm not really into. Yes, it kind of ruins the flow of it. Because I do like, like I think many people do.

You like to hear Peyton and Eli kind of chopping it up, been going back and forth about the strategy of the game with Bill.

They'll be able to do that, you would imagine at a very high level.

Believe the report indicated it would be like first quarter. So he's gonna have all this preparation. He's going to be coming on what's happening by how these teams are looking. I mean, he's also can get to bed a little earlier. That way, you know, maybe if he wants.

More agism, that's perfect. I am with a warm cup of milk. So he's in bed by ten.

Greg, I'm just saying, these games are on late and fourteen years old. You just want it to be an easier lift. If you're Bill Belichick, can I pick my quarter? Okay, I'll take the first. I'm with you. The parts where it's just Manny and Elight. To me, they should just have faith that that's the best part of the show. And I've always thought watching this show, if they did two guests instead of four, it'd be better, Like, just just pick two guests.

We don't need it every quarter. And Peyton is so Peyton is so skilled in the media. He does a great job that he's able to kind of show run in real time. But sometimes you can see the gears turning on Peyton that he has to like maneuver certain things as like the host of the show all elis just doing his ELI thing, Like just let Peyton cook too, so he doesn't have to worry about doing that because some of us can do it easily, like some of us can be high level entertainers and steer the show.

You know, we've all improved though, you know from that they're now entering year three. I'm with you, and I like, I like, what about my uli.

Barry Horowitz patting myself on the back monologue there.

I'm thinking about myself too, that all of us, when I've listened to that first season of shows, we all got better.

Oh yeah, reps help and everything in life.

Uh real quick, Mike McCarthy, Cowboys head coach Zeke Elliott is back in the building and there's this horrifying thought of Zeke Elliott and all the pop the hood stats.

Around Zeke are horrific. That he is a.

Good goal line back, perhaps still or a competent one, but is maybe the slowest running back in the league or high up on that list. He can't possibly be their starter in twenty twenty four, while Mike says probably not.

You know, I don't think that's fair. I mean, what do you mean? I mean, he guy carried a ball more than anybody in history of football in the first couple of years. You know, that's that's not going to be his role. You know, we're we're running back by committee, you know. But I think he'll definitely play at the level that he's played. I know, my time here, I anticipate that. I don't see, you know, any drop off in the way he moves.

He's in good shape, all right.

So Mike's gonna say that in May, but he's obviously a much lesser player at this point. Zeke and I feel like this is a team they're gonna add somebody, somebody's gonna shake free, or they're gonna make a move.

It just feels like that depth chart's not done, do you.

Yeah, I'm doing projected starters for NFL dot Com. The first one's up AFC East and yeah, looking at that Cowboys, it's like Rico Dubtele or Zeke Orduce Vaughan.

They'll probably add someone late in camp, you know.

I found though looking this up, looking at Zeke's numbers, he was the leading receiver by receptions at least for the twenty twenty three New England Patriot. Though, if you want to know why that offense, Uh, that's one one way to use zero in.

That's horrifying.

It's pretty I might have to like, have you say that's stat again with this scary Jim Harborough music under you?

All right? Uh, quick hitters Patriots.

Zeke's former team hire Elliott Wolf as their personnel chief. We talked about that last week that it was coming, and now it is a deal. The Chargers signed pass rusher Bud Dupree Zay Jones, the wide receiver heads to the Cardinals. Oh your boy, Greg Washington's second round pick, Johnny Newton needs yet another foot surgery.

It's explaining why he fell in the draft.

And uh, remember you try to bury that info to win a sandwich prop But I said, does he have any medical red flags? And he was like no, no, no, Now he's having another I mean, I hope he keeps the foot.

I mean, at this point, another surgery. It's not what you want right off the bat.

And finally sad news, Former Chargers General manager A. J.

Smith passed away over the weekend.

And AJ Smith Greg was a very notable figure in Chargers history.

He was there during In fact, he's the winningest GM in Chargers history.

He kind of was the architect of those great early you know aughts Chargers teams and also never got over the hump in the playoffs obviously, but built some really damn good rosters in his time there.

He's one of those guys that I think about if we had a podcast then he would have been a sneaky, huge figure in it, because those were the best teams. Year after you had the fourteen and two season where it was one of the best regular season teams I've ever seen that lost in the playoffs to the Patriots, and then they fire Marty Schottenheimer after a fourteen and two season and A. J. Smith and Marty Schottenheimer had these kind of knocked down, drag out stuff where impressers.

A J.

Smith was really cutting to his team to his coaches, to the reporters, and he was that dude.

And he also stared down the Manning family, made Eli Manning.

Hold up the Chargers jersey, and while that was happening live, this is pre Twitter, like, we didn't really know how that was gonna go, and he didn't totally know either.

He had a good feeling that it's like they're gonna blink and they're gonna give us what we want.

And he got Philip Rivers and yeah, they were always good, the North Turner ones with him never quite got over them. They were always like a nine to seven team, but he built up some superpowers and was a weirdly huge figure in the NFL for like six seven years.

So rip a j Smith.

Yeah, they lost that the crushing Patriots game with all that bad blood I as a Jets fan.

The Jets knocked off two big.

Time Chargers gems where they were the underdog in both years, both times in San Diego, and that was obviously just kind of the story of those teams filled with talent, big time regular seat and then could never get over the hump.

But the one time they overachieved, they get to the conference finals and there it's Philip Rivers with the torney sal playing on a torn a ceo. Danian Thomlinson kind of moping on the bench. Come on, also hurt, but that's why it is moping.

Don't mope, fight through it anyway. A j Smith passes away at the age of seventy five.

Rest in peace. Let's take a break and when we come back, it's John Ledyard time.

Blurs it out in the flat caught Kelsey forty five across midfield hurdles a defender George Kettle chucking away, go underneath and this is clot from a joke.

Could carry the defender on his bench.

Jackson points cruising down till Andrews got free.

Remark couldn't give it.

Two and they cut it anyway more than chitch by Andrews wit two seconds.

Back on the clock. There he is a rookie porter.

Yes, it was a big year in twenty twenty three for the tight end and now we're going to talk about it, both the current class and a little atm history lesson going back in the last thirteen years or so, and to help us.

Along on that ride.

As a man who knows his ball, he is a host on the Audibles and Analytics pod.

You could find him all over the place.

In fact, John Ledyard, Welcome to around the NFL.

Hey, guys, is an honor to be with you, guys. I'm excited to talk some tight ends with y'all.

How did a feel when Greg Rosenthal, the man who once built rode a world brick by brick with his bare hands his calloused hands, connected with you randomly and said, do you want to talk about tight ends?

Hey?

Well, I didn't have it on my bingo card, but I was greatly honored. Greg and I have fought each other for a while, and so it was exciting when he jumped in and was like, Hey, would you like to jump on this pod? And I was like, you guys have probably more fun than anybody else in the NIMAL on a podcast. You're definitely in the top five of the fun rankings, and so I was like, man, opportunity to talk ball with those guys as a dream come true. So I'm excited.

I like it.

And you mentioned yeah, rankings, so that's it's the off season. I like little rankings. We're gonna do, We're gonna do, take a little snapshot. We might revisit this various times in the off season. It's fun to kind of take a snapshot of a position, talk about where they're at now, and then also, yeah, we're going to look back and try to decide who are the best tight ends of the since twenty ten?

And I'm thinking who knows ball?

And I've been listening to the Audibles and Analytics podcast. I'm a relatively recent convert during draft season, a little late later in the playoff season, and you and Annie Ollie Connolly, I should say, do a great job. So everyone should check out John's substack right and with it. And I also felt bad because I gave him a lot of like homework kind of it was like a little as we're a little ass minute, I try not

I thought John would be a honest show. It is that how you feel.

Would he read it extremely well? I may or may not do this in my spare time, so I may or may not have been prepared.

But you know, while John is perhaps an exception, I just want everyone to know out there that has a podcast, which is most of America and beyond. H when you have someone on as a guest, don't try not to give them a homework assignment.

Depends, depends, depends if you give him like a week's notice, at least not twenty four hours.

I mean, just take it easy. Okay, they're coming on your show. That should be enough. Let's get into it. John, you came up with a list. Let's start with the modern day, the current, the twenty twenty three into now twenty twenty four tight end class. We each submitted to our production team our top ten, and then I believe Funk and ETP did there wiz and took those three options or those three lists and made it into one Mondo list.

Right, So we do not know the results of these rankings. Let's put them up. We do not see them yet. I see I see them back in the control room. We need to see them.

All right, Fly him up, all right? So this is this is what the interesting, all right, So here we go. I'll go ten to one here. Dalton Kincaid not in my top ten. Came in at number ten. Evan Ingram of the Jaguars, number nine, Dallas Goddard, number eight, David Njoku my guy, number seven, t J. Hockinson, number six, Trey McBride. Oh it's number five. This is what I'm talking about. This are all these young guys new on

Kelsey of the Chiefs. All right, let's start at John.

Do you have when we look at our combined list here, do you have a name that kind of does not jibe overall that you've had somebody higher or lower.

Let's start that way.

I don't have any big gripes with this list. Honestly, it's not too far off from mine. The only player in this ten that I didn't have in mind was Evan Ingram, and he was eleven for me, just outside, so very strongly consider him. I also kind of split mine up into tiers a little bit, so when you get past the first six guys, to me, I think there's about six or seven guys after that that, I would say you could put them in any order, and

I mean almost the whole list.

I thought it was hard to decide who is sort of a top the tight end mountain right now, Let's start there, because our top three is Kelsey, Kittle, Andrews Kittle. First, I feel like Travis, I mean, George Kittle was the best tight end in the league last year. I think I'm always going to lean a little bit to a guy who's that dynamic as a blocker. He hasn't stayed as healthy and explosive as you would want, but he's still much younger than Travis Kelce, and he was healthy

With Kelsey wasn't quite as good as he was the previous season, where I think he was heading shoulders the best tight end in the league. And Kittle, if you look at some of the advanced numbers at PFF, i'll cite them. First of all, he was their highest graded tight end by quite a margin over Travis Kelcey, who was second.

And then he had some really numbers.

He Kittle had twenty nine games of fifteen plus yards, which is tied for first among all tight ends. He led all tight ends in deep receiving yards. He averaged ten yards depth per target, seven point three yards per after the catch game two hundred and seventy nine yards after contact John And of course everyone knows Kittle is the complete tight end and is a boss as a

I thought the first three guys, which you've mentioned, two of them, Kelsey and Kittle, and then for me it was Sam Laporto was the third and we'll talk about him, and those three were in a tier together for me at the top. And the reason why it was difficult to rank him and I did rank Travis kelce first, as you mentioned, Greg, was that the playoffs. Honestly, that was the big part of it. I don't think in the regular season that Travis Kelcey was as transcendent as

Our teap This's why it's good to have three of us combined on these because now you've kind of tuked you guys, have tucked me into it, giving anyone else the top of the mountain other than Travis Kelcey and giving it to a guy who, in Kittle, now thinking about it, had a total of four catches in those last two games. He wasn't a huge part of that offense with Kelsey had three times the production.

You're right in the playoffs.

So if you're trying to pick between the two, even though he's a little more dynamic Kittle, it's hard to go against that. The super Bowl was on yesterday and I kind of let Walker watch. It's like, I won't let you watch TV. Force Well, no, I'm not forcings. He's dying, but uh, you know, on the weekends, okay, you can watch some sports. You don't don't watch TV, but you canna have sports on. So he's watching the

I'm curious why.

For me, the biggest thing with the Porte is that I think to already be able to do I'd rather be early than late on a guy like that that's that good. I loves a puge him. Coming out of college too, he was my number two tight end behind Kim Kid in the class. I thought he was the real deal, and it was easily a top thirty player

Him, Laporta and goff in play action was absolute death to defenses last year.

I had him as four. I put Mark Andrews just ahead.

And he's kind of a guy that maybe gets overlooked just because you know, he missed the end of the last season with an injury. He's been banged up at times. But a good data point here, Andrews generated the second highest passer rating when targeted among tight ends one thirty five point one when Lamar was targeting him last year before he went down.

Here's a little good Ravens nug for you, GREGI all right, the only.

Person that had a higher passer rating target was at one forty one point two isaaa likely of the Ravens, So that works.

He's on my long list.

We'll get to some of the guys that didn't make the ten, because I do think at least one name is very interesting to talk about, but likely when I made my long list out, he was like top fifteen. He's pretty dynamic. I do want to get to Trey

On him, Oh really, he was just.

He was just off of Mi okay, So that's how Kincaid slipped on there because I had Kakaid quite high. I think Kaid's movement is just crazy and he's set to have a big season, and part of his production last year being a little lower I think was just him getting used to the league, and by the end of the season you can see he is a special, special mover.

I get why you had him t one in.

A great class, but McBride, Like, if you just watched Trey McBride's tape from last season and you told me he was taken in the top twenty picks in the NFL draft, was like, I would believe that. Like, to me, he does everything he is. He is a special ball winner. He is good after the catch, like he's tough. There's kind of nothing I don't see. And he just kept backing it up week after week. And he started to show it a little bit late in his rookie year too,

John die for me. Yeah, Okay, there we go. That's how it happened.

Yes, I'm a huge I saw I had McBride forth. I'm a huge fan of McBride. I mean, so this was the most interesting stat one of the most interesting stats that I found, Uh, his yards per route run last year. He was first amongst all tight ends over two point over two yards per route run last year for McBride, and better than the better than Kelsey, better than all these guys here about how great their seasons were. And with McBride, I just kept coming back to man, like,

He also was had like thirty straight minutes of him during a in season hard Knocks. I believe it was or all or nothing. I don't even remember at this point that literally no one on earth watched other than me a solid thirty minute chunk in one episode. And I think I'm just like glad that that. I feel like, now that paid off for me.

That's good, that's important, and I'm glad it enriched you in your analysis. Can we talk a little Davin Joku, because your guy, he's my guy. I always believed in him, and it was a little bit of a slow train to get where it needed to be. But I really thought it happened last year, especially when Flacco got involved. He set career highs in targets, catches, touchdowns, He led all tight ends, john in mistackles, forced also in explosive gains. This was a guy who was absolute terror. I could

It's hard to bring down.

I think he could even be better if he ever gets truly consistent quarterback.

Play your thoughts on njuco in Djoko in Juko.

For me, he was seventh, uh he but I am a huge fan of his game. He was my number one tight end in the draft when he came out that you remember that was oj Howard m and Ingram. There was a lot of guys in that class and for him, like, the biggest thing I thought when I watched him was that just the post catchability, which honestly we've kind of seen a little bit of over the course of his career, but this was the first year where it felt like it really all came together for him. Man.

The freaking face burned off and he was playing the next week, John, Yeah, dude, it's.

Fas like it just one of those dudes that he will talk to talk and walk the walk. And I remember when early in his career we were like, maybe they'll trade him, like it doesn't seem like it's working out there, and they were like, no chance, we're trading this guy, like we know it's going to come around, and he's still only twenty seven. I think that's just an insane part of all.

This when you could try safeties with no eyelashes, like that's that's different, Like you're built different.

Let's let's put the list back up there.

Eric, You're right, some of these guys are sneaky young, like in Joko you just mentioned. I couldn't believe TJ. Hockinson, who I think comes in at number six. Let's see the list, Eric, He's still just twenty six years old. It feels like TJ. Hockinson's been in the league forever. He's coming off a tourney ACL.

That's such a bummer because he was he had had a perfect place in that offense and hopefully he's able to come back as the same TJ.

Yeah, and John made a good he asked me, and this is why you know he's a pro. He's like, if we're talking about yea, John, take it for twenty twenty four. He's like, are we holding it against Hockinson that he's coming off with torn acl because he might not be even ready for the start, As I say, a personal don't don't hold it against him, so that I put him where right in the middle. Goddard's been kind of slumping lately, and then looking at Ingram.

You missed my top ten by the way.

Yeah, he just didn't look like the same guy, and you do worry about the miles that he's put on him. But if we had done this exercise last year, would have been in my top four. So I had a hard time putting a much lower. I think I had him eight or nine. I'm guessing John, you had him somewhere in that ballpark because Dan five.

Actually I thought ahead of Andrews. This is probably my most controversial ranking.

I guess it's well there, No, that's where he was for me initially, and then I just kept sliding him down, thinking like, he just didn't quite look like the same guy a year ago.

But tell me if I'm wrong, Well, both.

These guys have that. The Goddard and Andrews conversation is both like are they who they were last year? Or are they who they've been in the past. I think is the conversation with both of them moving forward. I believe in Goddard maybe a little bit more because it goes back to how much does your team trust you, how much does your team, how many different things does your team ask of you? How important you are? Are

Can we?

I mean, he has done this stuff in his career. We know he can be this player. I think a big reason for what if Philly is going to go back up on offense, if they are going to climb the rankings again and truly be one of the most feared offense in the NFL again, I think they have to expand their usage of Goddard again. It's it just became so narrow of a usage for him, and I think he's just capable a lot more so. I did have him five and Andrews six. That was a very

As well?

As another question with him, I think he had some ugly drops. It wasn't his best season as a blocker. He's never been the biggest playmaker with the ball in his hands. But I think everything about his game is still like pretty good, I think. And he's only twenty seven to two, which is crazy. So who bounces back out of those two is probably going to determine which ones in the top five next year when we do.

This, right, you think the Eagles going back to God.

It is such a great situation for him, But you said it right, And actually Jalen Hurts might not be like the best quarterback for him because Jalen Hurts his best attribute is on the outside, Like he's just not as consistent working in the middle of the field. He's great at, you know, throwing the go balls, and they build the offense around that. So maybe that hasn't helped him vice versa like the flip side of that. As

Before we move on to by the.

Way, check out the splits too, because Ingram was very quiet in the first half. Even he's getting targeted, he was. He was a really good player for them and productive.

He's great after the back.

He's great at what they what he does, which is just those those drag routes and everything.

Is Kyle Pitts. Are we sure he's good?

I guess I'm the only person that didn't put him in the top ten. He's He's someone i've actually I have watched a lot of them, and I just don't think he moves the same way as we that he did coming out of college or even his rookie year. And and I know the quarterbacks have been bad and that's a big part of it, but I look at Drake London and I think, Okay, Drake London's really underrated. If he was in a different situation, he'd be like

What do you think, John, Yeah.

I had inn Djoku seven, Hawkinson eight, Kincaid nine, and then Pitts ten. And you're completely right about bets, Like, he wasn't a better player than Evan Ingram last year, So you could put Jake Ferguson over him, you could put him further down the list.

For me, Friarmuth is in that mix guys that didn't make Yeah Shultz.

I mean there were a lot of guys that were better than him last year. I just think about his age, I think about the offense he was in, and I just wasn't a big fan of a lot of the usage for him and I think he basically just has to be like this field stretcher, Well, what else can he do for your team? Like I think he can do more things for your team. All that is. All that said, there's no doubt Cowpits, and I don't think we talked about this enough. Cow Pits has not played

We were in London for one of the high moments of his career. He lit up the Jets that game. Yeah they went like seven or something.

So, yeah, he's got one thousand yard season on his resume and maybe some of those miscommunications. He's had a lot of quarterbacks, a lot of bad quarterbacks. I think this is a perfect setup for him. He might only get Kirk Cousins for one year because of their absurd roster strategy, but give me a consistent quarterback that puts it on the numbers. How many times you see Kyle Pitts, you know, jackknifing trying to reach behind his body and throws over his career so far, I'm really excited by

Years or so.

But I want to let everyone know that I put Taysom Hill at number nine and whoa, that doesn't count because he's not a real tight end. But if you give me three hundred receiving yards and four hundred rushing yards and six touchdowns, and you could throw a nice spiral, you could find the back ten, back half of the back ten of me.

For me, that's every time that is bold.

I gotta say last year was the year that I did start thinking, Okay, Taysom Hill actually is underrated. He actually was very helpful to their winning and was making pretty consistent plays. We got you tasting top ten is a little rich for me, but I got you Saints fans pretty unique.

All right, let's take a break and we'll be right back. All right, we are back just for fun. This is Greg's idea of fun. And I was like, yeah, let's go for a ride. Let's go through the mind of Greg and with John along for the ride. He said, you know what's even more from the talking tight ends, Let's crank back the clock and let's talk about our favorite and the best tight end since twenty ten, which

So here's what I did. I.

Even if I don't totally believe it, put Travis Kelce one over Gronk. And my hope, my hope is that John, who we don't know each other prior to this conversation, He's probably gonna put Cronk number one. But if he doesn't, if he put Travis Kelce number one, that's two to one. It's Kelsey beats Gronk, and the entire idea of the exercise turns and collapses in on itself on GREGGI in a big spot.

So, without further ado, the it also means I'm not allowing anyone else to vote.

Next time the top ten tight end since twenty ten. Come on, Travis number one. Give it to me, Give me what I need because we need it to.

Stick it to Gregy in a big spot. It sounds like you already know the end. I don't know. Let's see it. Oh yes, Kelsey, Oh big time, what a win. Oh that's why I get up in the morning. That's why I love this job. We big focused on his arms up in the air, too.

This is preposterous, all right. Here always have for like wins and losses. What is it that Jim Harbos said at the top.

Of The Urracious Loser, It's happened, and now you got today.

It's today? What was it?

Number number ten, Mark Andrews number nine, Vernon Davis number eight, Zach Ertz number seven, Antonio Gates number six. Greg Olsen, Yes, that Greg Olsen. It was a quite a fine tight end before his feet turned on him. Jimmy Graham at number five, Jason Whitne at number four, George Kittle at number three, Rob Gronkowski Gronk himself number two, and Kelsey

John, your opinions? Why John said Travis over Rob? Go ahead, John, Yeah.

Greg's probably regretting having me on the show. I apologized, Greg. I had to do this, so this actually hurt me too, because I covered Gronk in Tampa Bay for a couple of years and just an absolute joy if as a player as everything to be able to cover. And honestly, if you this is obviously a great conversation or probably discourse that'll happen for years. These guys are obviously in the same tier. There's no wrong ranking here in my opinion.

He's like a season he's a season up.

Just to put the stats out, he basically has sixteen games up on Gronk now going in.

And Gronk started at age twenty one. Kelsey's career didn't really start to lage twenty five, which is interesting.

Right, and I think Kelsey's still adding to that. Plus just really always being healthy is a big part of this ranking. Now if you ask, it's kind of like the Kittle Kelsey debate. Honestly in a little ways, like if you're just saying I'm starting both these guys at the beginning of the career. I'm starting a neutral franchise. Who do I want to build my offense around. I think there's definitely a real strong argument for Gronkowski because

That And that's the reason why let him think they beat the Chiefs in that game was exactly that reason that they could do that.

Greg, You're gonna get your check.

I've just never really seen anybody win the way Kelsey win, Like I've never seen him. He isn't even a great athlete anymore. And he's open all the time. How like, how is he he knows everything that's happening around him all the time. I obviously he has cart blanche to kind of do what he wants as a route runner, which is incredible to watch. But I just don't know how anybody who moves like the way he does is getting open to the degree that he is at his

I get it everything that you said is right on when it's talking about why Kelsey is so great, and he's he's kind of a genius in term of football, genius in terms of route running, and he gets to play with another one in Mahomes, and that's awesome, like you think about players that never got that chance, like the fact Randy Moss get to play with Tom Brady at that point in both of their careers. You got to see greatness elevate each other, and Kelsey has done that.

But here's yeah, here's here. Here it is to me, like, can't you can't say anything negative about Gronk? Maybe his durability and there's a reason why he kind of left the game in twenty nineteen because he got so beat up over the years he came into the league with

Everyone was like, can you believe that Travis Kelcey would do that?

And then after the game, everybody's like, no, Kelsey does that stuff all the time in practic Like he just sees the field in a way that other people don't, and then he has this incredible ability to make plays because he's just so naturally athletically gifted. The other play all point two is the thirteen seconds game the Divisional round playoffs, also obviously against the Bills, and on that amazing sequence where they were able to tie the game.

So those are just two examples.

And while I'm not going to get on Gronk because everybody knows Gronk's not a rocket scientist, although I know he leans into the gronkness of it all, just Kelsey, I think, separates himself with his ability to be like his brother it did on the offensive line physically gifted but also mentally superstar.

Well, it's also absolutely crazy that just when you talk, we'll look at the production for both these two guys. There's so many things to just be like jaw on the floor about. But Kelsey has since twenty ten, almost almost three hundred more catches than Ron Gronkowski now, and Gronkowski still has eighteen more touchdowns than him, which speaks

I feel like, well, maybe maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but I feel like it could have gone different ways. We could have seen less of Gronk. I mean the fact that you got five or six great seasons. You think about the last two times he played Travis Kelcey. You know, not for nothing that AFC Championship game. They win it in part by putting Gronk out to the left and on the game winning drive he makes big plays.

I think that's not fair though, because he was what you dream of in a tight end a guy, a great safety, valve slash, moved the chain guy in a big third down. He did so much for them and had some huge years as well in terms of straight.

Production, and got a couple first team All pros too. And then I was happy to see greg Al sitting on this list. I sorted by a couple of different measures, but on Pro Football Reference they have something called approximate value, which it's not perfect, but it's trying to be there be all end all, I just wanted an initial list. They had him fourth since twenty ten behind Kelsey Gronk and Jimmy Graham. And that just shows the kind of production. And he was a very John intelligent player too.

John.

I killed Antonio Gates's ranking here because I left him off only because his last kind of big time year was twenty ten and then he hung around and had the issues obviously health down the line. But if he's still finished seventh, you must have had him high up as well.

I had him, Yeah, what did I have him?

Sixth?

I think was on my list I had I actually had Graham lower. I had Graham eighth, and so I'll contribute to I contributed to him being probably five. It seems like you would have been hired for you guys. Actually, my most controversy, I had Kittle third as well. I had Greg Olsen fourth, and wit in fo wow Gate sixth, Arch seventh, and I had Graham eighth and Vernon Davis ninth and then tenth. I was like Mark Andrews. Jared Cook. I don't know, like it's.

Jared Cook made the list. Dang Jared Cook. Yeah, he you know his production is there though, on all these lists of yards.

When I sorted in approximate value, he's top seven or eight, and you're like, dang, Jared Cook's had a nice career.

I sent the list that I refused to just put Jared Cook because we ever think of him as a top ten tight end in the last fifteen years.

But he just.

Underhead one of the best catches you'll ever see from a tight end in a playoff game against Dallas with the Packers. I just threw Darren Waller at number ten, and I know that he has not been able to keep it up and sustain it, but when he did lock into that zone, he was as impossible to cover as anyone. So I game a little love. I don't even know if his career is contending with at this point, but little pop for day.

Yeah, it felt like there was like nine solid apparently for all of us, because I actually had Vernon Davis tenth. I split nine and ten with Vernon Davis's old teammate on the Super Bowl reaching twenty twelve forty nine or seen. I gave Delane and Walker a little love and old West fail almost three Pro Bowls, a great blocker, great at his very peak, and so he's snuck in at ten.

But I'm I'm glad you mentioned Gates.

That is the last thing I want to say, because he didn't make the Hall of Fame last year, and I was just like, what he'll get there.

I know who got there, and you gotta wait.

It's like Devin Hester and Patt I love Patrick Willis, but like if you had said in the middle of

All right, all those guys are pretty I mean, I think after the top three that are I think going to be pretty consensus. All those guys really are kind of a pretty similar clump up until you get probably to the Vernon Davis range and Wherever's it nine or ten for you. But I just thought Olsen is kind

Some hands like just great everything, great rats, I mean really friendly.

When who ran him and ran into him in Vegas and he was feeling no pain at all in the casino.

I mean, he's very nice guy. He's doing it right, he's living well. He's had a great life.

Like if you I try to make the case to Andrew Marshawn that Greg Olsen was really the you know, the big loser of the offseason in terms of the Tom Brady of it all in the broadcasting booth.

But no, Greg Olsen is doing great.

Greg Golsen, he's the JJ Reddick of the I think he's on that trajectory right, great player who's kind of forgotten about a little bit, goes great analysts now it's a.

Good although Reddick actually got head coaching interview and might get more.

Olson Olsen has poked his head around there. He tried to, He tried to.

There was some like you know, source report that Greg Olsen would be open if you would want to talk to him, but they never did.

All right, John, You've said it all.

Follow John on Twitter at Ledyard NFL Draft, Like I said, the Audibles and Analytics pod, and he's a busy man, So just keep an eye on him because he's doing all sorts of great coverage of ball.

Thank you, buddy for joining Strong Jaw to appreciate it.

John, Hey, my jawsband comped to Bill Cower at times.

Very nice John Ledyard everywhere, John, we'll be right back to closing size.

All right, we are back close some things up. Nice conversation there with John Ledyard. Good addition, I.

Love that stuff. I don't know where I saw. I think it was a book I read. It was just like men, or maybe it was a tweet Like all men like to do is just like rank thing ranks, and I was like, yeah, let's rank.

Yeah, I get that. I mean, who better than us to do it? We've been doing this show we've been following.

Who's Got a Better of Us? Yes again, Mark Sessler not with us today, but Mark will be back on Wednesday, so tune in for that. Also Wednesday is the schedule release show, so we will be breaking down all the interesting tidbits that are coming out of that. And before we say goodbye, we were just talking tight ends and all the fun ranking of it, all that men like to do. There's some heat between one of the great tight ends of all time. He retired before he would be part of this conversation.

We just had.

But Shannon Sharp, who was most recently seen kicking the hell out of us in a podcast award show, right, they flew him down there.

That's what we knew.

We were done, well I knew, and they not only that, they had their own roped off section that we were that I tried to get it.

Oh that was rough. As soon as we got to Austin, like, oh my god, this was all a trap.

But Shannon Sharp is one of the great tight ends of the nineties into the two thousands. But he came after a Shaquille O'Neill, the NBA legend. You know what if shack you know, really tried hard, and Shack didn't take too kindly to that.

Let's check out this. This I just thought was awesome because.

Shack cited gil Brandt's NFL dot Com write ups multiple times. Okay, so Shack cited gil ranking Sean Sharp eleventh all time, tight ends gilbrand who rest in peace, left us a year ago, former Cowboys general manager. And I just like that, Shaks, post's gotta be top ten in your profession before you speak on someone in there in their profession tough, they're they're their break for Shaq in a big spot there.

Not only that it's an old school NFL dot Com photo gallery. I can't believe Sharp didn't make the.

Top Labenberg special. But then I look at.

Who is in it, for instance, and you can't you can't really fault gil gil Wait, actually I do fault some things. He's got Jason Witten fourth and Gronk like two spots, but you know what's going to give Jason Witten a little extra pop. But either way, I love this rap beef that I never knew anything.

I know.

This is the this is the new Drake and Lamar pull up the Instagram feed one again because there's I love coded messaging that It's.

Like, what's going on? Does everybody know about about this but us?

But at one point Shack and his long die drop against Shannon Sharp over nonsense rights.

Don't forget I know what you did to get where you were at. Oh hell yeah, what's that all about? Whoa? What's that all about? Whoa? Whoa? Oie? Oh I need more on that.

I do like that, Shack said, Google me four rings seven, Top seventy five, NBA PA.

He calls himself. You think I have too many nicknames? He calls him he hashtags at the end, Apex Predator. Young Shaq was the most dominant athlete I've ever seen in my life. We took a growing up in you know, right on the border of northern New Jersey. We couldn't get into the garden to see the Knicks because they were very popular and successful at the time, but you could always get to a Nets game down at the Metalands.

Football is completely different than basketball.

All Right, we'll be back Wednesday. Great job behind the glass. Tag team effort.

Kind of tag. What tag team would they been? Demolition?

I think the Legion of Doom Doom aush

He the gall