Bunkercast XXVI: Bob McGinn

coming up on Thursday through Saturday. So check us out live on Twitter two pm Pacific, five pm Eastern, ten pm GMT, so a little bit later than our usual time. Make sure you check it out. Let us get to the Monday show. Me Around the NFL Podcast have a billion dollar idea. Welcome to another edition of the Around the NFL Podcast. My name is Dan Kansas. I'm coming to you from city filled with heroes and bunkers. Mark Sessler, Chris Wesley, What is up? Gentleman? Hey d it's a

gentleman instead of boys. Finally, classy, sophisticated. Um, how is everybody? How was your weekend? I like the weekends. It is quite a difference, I mean with the schools and the shows. Like it's a relief to get to the weekends. Yeah, I find myself drifting away on the weekends. I kind of need this daily UM exercise that we do to keep us or keep me somewhat sane. UM. I enjoyed

the weekend quite a bit. I was talking to Erica before the show that I've started to look back over the past couple of months of like the things that UM I had a chance to do that I that I didn't do because I thought, well, you know, we'll always be able to do this, and it was remind I remind I thought about the night that Dan and I we almost went to France UM and to Paris from UM a late night UK bar, but we thought it's too audacious an idea. We'll do what another tense like,

I wish we had done that. Now I'm just looking back saying, like that will that may never happen again? And you know, with the way things of working out now, with the world turned upside down and then the uncertain nature of the NFL season, I'm very worried that we won't get to go to London this year. And who knows, you know, all of a sudden, now you're talking two years down the line, you know where the world is filled with unknowns. I guess what is the lesson here? Uh?

Grab life by ther carpet and and the lesson is Dan is now in into other countries, um, other than our own, which I like. That's good. It's a it's a trope being perpetuated by you guys. But I do that stuff with you all the time. So UM. I didn't really come that close to going to France either. That was more assessler fever dream that maybe I could have gotten roped into. Uh And now in retrospect, yes, that would have been great because who knows. We got

a nice show coming up today. Did everybody watch the Last Dance? Definitely? I have yet to do that, but I feel highly on top of the situation thanks to thousand sports writers tweeting about it. I thinks exact same time, Mark will never watch it. I will watch it. I have I will watch it and catch up and we'll watch it. But I haven't yet. Hyes, I thought of you while I was watching it, because you spoke very eloquently on the on the matter on our Twitter show

on Friday. And Michael Wilbon is a guy I think we all respect. At one point he was one of the talking heads and if you don't know the Last Dance, it's a ten part ESPN documentary about Michael Jordan's focusing on the last season with the Bulls, but really on his whole career in life. Um and Will Bon said, there's only really three guys in the history of American sport that could you know, you could do a documentary like this that have this this, this is the layers

that Jordan had is. It's Babe Ruth, It's Muhammad Ali, and it's Michael Jordan's did get me thinking that football is, you know, the most popular sport in America. It's been around forever now, it's kind of interesting that there's never been that type of a guy that went next level and became the fascination that those three personalities are. Yeah,

I thought it was interesting too. Had I had a couple of thoughts on that one that it's interesting that those three guys all came from different sports, and they all came from probably the time when those sports were at their peak in popularity. Um, Babe Ruth and twenties with baseball, Muhammad Ali and the sixties with boxing, and

then Michael Jordan in the nineties with basketball. Maybe football has yet to reach its peak in popularity and we'll have that athlete who lifts the whole game up and sort of becomes that icon. That's kind of a scary thought that that football has not peaked in popularity. How much bigger can it get? Really? Well, the way Greg's talking, Patrick Mahomes could be that guy he's gotta I mean,

I don't know, documentary Greg, I don't know. I don't know what you would have to do to transcend this sport. And like the world at this point now that the NFL is so saturated, Like if Patrick Mahomes, let's say one five m v ps, you know, I mean Pat Peyton Manning did that and you wouldn't put him at that level. I guess what would you have to do

to be like Michael Jordan? I guess if if, if, I don't know, there's something more than just like racking up trophies and racking up title it's playing style too. And Ricky has put up at the bottom of the screen Tom Brady, Are you numb? There's no arguing with his success? Are you numb? What do you Wayne Campbell? Im Brady has not played with the style that has made people people outside of football take note and saying, well,

he's so exciting. Right, Let's say this about Jordan's. Likeing and West were at that same age where we were like fourth, fifth, sixth grade, Jordan's was you know, the sun was rising on the NBA and I have these

notebooks filled with just Michael Ordon drawings. And something that was different about him than anyone else was the very truthful marketing campaign that this man could fly like I am a young kid falling in love with sports, and you've got the the black and white ad where he's taking off from the foul line with the overlay of an airline taking off into the skies, and the way he was marketed in the in the in the clash

of Jordan's and Nike. And then he'd go out and do things like how many players were dropping sixty one points on the reg over and over on teams. He was doing stuff that nobody else knew how to do or could do. And I mean he captured the imagination in a way that no other athlete did growing up for me, on the reg sounds ridiculous when I say that. And what we have, we have stuff to get to we should move on, although would be fun to do

an entire Michael Jordan's NFL podcast. That seems weird. But when they go to France to do like a charity tournament type thing before the start of season, there's a headline in a French newspaper that Michael Jordan's is the closest thing we have to God, or the closest thing

to God. He's h I think it was a reference to his high flying ability, but also just how incredibly popular he was, uh and Brady like to your point, Ricky as as hugely influent, influential in terms of like um, the popularity connected to the Patriots and what he was able to do. He's ever really grabbed the country's attention and fascination the way a guy like Jordan's and obviously

Ali and for the World wasn't before us. But he also wasn't one of the top five players at his position the first six years he was in the league, so it he's he's different. But thinking about your question, maybe it's football is too much of a team sport, because I know basketball is a team sport, but but basketball, boxing, baseball, it's a place individuals. I think can maybe shine in

a different way. Well, it's also a global thing, Babe, Ruth towards Japan in the nineteen twenties before airplanes were popular. You know, Michael Jordan's globalized basketball. Muhammad Ali met with world leaders while he was a champion boxer, and Muhammad Ali changed politics around the world. So Tom Brady doesn't have that kind of power plane in americanized sport. Sorry, Erica, keep it on mute, all right. A lot to get to, uh.

Bob McGinn is joining us from the athletic to break down all the great draft heat and there's so much to get to. He's the best in the business. Uh in being plugged into Insiders, So it's great to have him on the show. We're looking forward to that conversation. But before that, let's do some news I've been telling at any cost. Jordan is the most talented player in the NBA by five, the show of the nineties, the team of the nineties. Whenever they speak, Michael Jordan's she speaks.

We created an image that people want to live up to. I think that's all you can hope for him. And before the news, just a reminder tomorrow, Big day as we get closer to the draft, Tuesday, we will have the annual Mark Sessler Mock Draft. That will be an audio show and also we're double dipping. The Twitter Show returns usually on Friday. This week, it will be on Tuesday tomorrow at two pm Pacific, five pm Eastern. Oh and it's late night. It's fun over in the UK

and Ireland and surrounding territories. What would that be? It would be although, you know what, the last time I attempted this, I got twelve tweets. You don't know how to do that. But then every yeah, we do get that tweets, Like, but we just had a time change, mate, right, It's like, I'm not London, summertime. Stop it find it Twitter Show. All right, let's get to the news. Here we go and Mark, we're excited about that mock draft. Um,

let's start with Leonard four Nette. So you know Leonard Fournette, we we talked about it on the Twitter Show on Friday that he spoke out, you know, saying Cam Newton

would be great in Jacksonville. Well, Jacksonville, you know they might be okay with Cam Newton coming to the Jaguars, but they also may be okay with Leonard Fournette not being with Jacksonville rap Sheet reported that the Jaguars had trade talks centered around four Net for more than a month, and they circled back with teams in the last three days, a k a. They're aggressively shopping the former first round pick. ESPN's Josina Anderson reports that the Bucks are not expected

to be a taker. Uh. They were connected to the running back for a while, but apparently that is not happening. According to Anderson, Grey what kind of market does Leonard four Nett have at this stage of the game. Obviously has been a disappointment since coming into the league. I would guess very little too possibly none. Uh, he's due four million dollars this year. Can they get a conditional

seventh round pick for him? You would, you would think, But I think that's about the area we're talking about. I almost thought when this is floated out, because they're they're so sick of dealing with for Net that they almost want to show him. They want to show him like what the league thinks of him, that that's all they're gonna get for him, is like a seventh round conditional pick. The Jaguars used him as a three down back. I can't think of another franchise that would use him

on passing downs. He's just not that good at it um it's misuse of an asset to use him on passing downs. I think he's limited in his skill set. He can get you a thousand yards on first and second downs, but he's gonna need a tunnel to run through because he's a straight ahead runner without as much lateral agility. And with Mike Gara Folo pointing out that he's been oversleeping, he's been tardy, he's been moody, and he was drafted by Tom cough and who had a

vision for a run first offense. So there's a lot of negatives there. I mean, is there any selling point, because I mean, number one, you're not looking at an NFL right now where there are a lot of running back holes. I mean, the Bucks were one team that you could think of them maybe adding stacking up um backs with them out of the picture, and they seem

very zoned in on on drafting and running back. You can catch passes out of the backfield and the Tom Brady offense, I mean, Leonard Fournette has been um, if anything, a consistent headache and I mean involved with some of the more problematic scenarios in Jacksonville over the last three seasons. So he's he's a former fourth overall pick. Is he gonna help you in special teams? No? Is he a guy that you could plug in and a depth roll as a backup and expect him to be a good

soldier about it? I don't know. Doesn't seem like that maybe is the safest route either. Has he performed at a high level when given the opportunities, I mean in in spurts, but overall it's not really worked out. He's a guy that might struggle to find a job, probably will get a job. But he's in the league, right Yeah, I think definitely. But you're not gonna give up anything. You're gonna give stuff up for him. He's in the

journeyman portion potentially. In other um Jags news, Marquise Lee another former high draft pick two thousand fourteen high second rounder. He has done with the team? Uh that uh? Jaguars released the wide receiver he missed all of with an a c L injury. Played just six games last season, so he had kind of been off off the grid a little bit. Uh, and now the Jags cut ties with markis Lee West. Does he make sense to you at twenty eight years old as a flyer for a

team or is he just another guy? I think he's just another guy at this point. You don't want to write off his career because, like he said, he's only twenty eight years old. It's been a lot of leg injuries, and sometimes it takes guys a couple of years before they can return to some semblance of what they were.

I I think he's a guy you signed sort of like a Jason Vare who the forty nine signed to play cornerback, where leg injuries make him a complete and utter wild card and it's a question of whether he'll even make your team or not. They paid some bad moves in Jacksonville. I just got to point out that this might be one of the worst contracts anyone's side, and it was partly bad luck injuries. They gave him like million dollars guaranteed he had three catches combined in

the last two years. I mean, they've had a disastrous couple of years as a front office that they've skated by on Alright. In other news, New York Giants. They are picking number four. Overall, all the mocks seemed to have them grabbing one of the uh tackles and plugging him in as a guy in front of Daniel Jones.

But Yahoo's sports is Charles Robinson or excuse me, NFL networksn RAPP report reports of the Giants quote have spent a lot of time researching Oregon quarterback Justin Herbert, a process that's included FaceTime conversations with coach Joe Judge West your shake in your head? Uh, do you put any stock in the idea that the Giants could be interested in taking a quarterback? Or is this your classic draft smoke and the day's leading up to the big event?

Zero point zero stock And it's laughable. And what is Getleman doing? He's never made a trade before, and then he announces this is the year he's interested in a trade, and then all of the NFL insiders come out hours later saying, oh, yeah, by the way, we're thinking about a quarterback at number four. If you want one, you'll have to trade with us. I mean, come on, it's a little bit yeah, it's a little see through desperately wants someone to trade in that spot, and I mentioned, yeah,

who sports is. Charles Robinson reported that yes, the Giants have uh, you know, connected with Justin Herbert and they're looking into him. He is completely certain New York will not be selecting him. And he called it the flirtation a quote Patriots culture move, uh, Joe Judge who has

New England ties. Uh. A situation where they're kind of doing evaluation of the prospect for down the road and just to have it in the bank so not to do not put any stock into the idea that the Giants can go the route of the Cardinals a couple of years ago or a year ago. I should say, Mark's Gina talk, but he's on mute. I was debating, just letting him, wow, that was that that would have been problematic um or better for all of you. But I mean, I don't think they're the only team that

does that kind of thing during the draft process. I don't who's actually who is buying on any level that they get a quarterback. I think nobody. But there is some credence if you, if anyone wants to trade up for any of these um pastors. And it seems more and more unlikely. Maybe you want to get up to that spot, um, just to get ahead of everything fallen behind it. But I mean the Giants could have not

telecast this with any less panache. I mean, ultimately the news uh nugget, it served its purpose to let you guys tea off on Dave Gentleman for no reason. So we're all good. I think there was a reason. I mean, it's fine, you guys are maybe not bumble um. And oh and by the way, we will be talking again with Bob mcgainn in a little bit and we will certainly touch on all the UM quarterback situations around the draft.

The New England Patriots, they tagged Joe Tuney there uh all pro guard and Mike Reese of ESPN believes that the Pats could be open to trading the UM interior alignment during the draft. So Tuney greg he signed the tender three days after receiving it, uh And people were surprised when that happened in the first place, because the widely held thought was that he was going to hit the open market. And then Tom Brady News kind of blew everything off the page Patriots related, but that was

still a bit of a surprise. Would you be surprised if they moved the guard? Now, I won't be because Mike Reese reported at him putting it out there of all people, tells me that's what they're looking to do, and it does. It does make sense. It helps explain the tag. I mean, he's a really good player that you know, as a Patriots fan, you'd love them to just resign, but they have negative cat. They have the least cap space of any team in the league if

they wanted to do anything else. They also are short on a second round draft pick because they gave away Mohammed Sanu and it it would in retrospect kind of explain why they why they did this tag, Why I let him go for free? If you can maybe get a second or third in this year's draft where they feel like they might need players like right now, they

don't want to wait for a compensitory pick. You know, Greg, I read your general manager rankings, good piece, but you have Bill Belichick number one, um, And what I would ask is like, because you explained in it that that was a career wide you know, look at Bill Belichick to some degree, but the Bill Belichick of the last year or so the team is in weird, weird cap situation. Um they I think they really they left tom Brady totally hanging from a talent perspective last year on offense.

I mean, what how what grade would you give him over the last three hundred and sixty five days B minus. I think the drafts though over the last five four years have been bad. Um, I'm not gonna like kill them that they in terms of the talent that they had, like a number one type type of defense and a team that could you know, win eleven and twelve games in Tom Brady's age forty two season, like setting up

last season. This a new trade though, Um, if it's not just him being hurt and he was hurt like right after he got there, that that he looked like a disaster there, that that was a fiasco. And to your point, Mark, Joe Tony is about the last good guy they drafted. I mean, they do not have like big draft hits in the last four to five years, and it's been fairly spotty in terms of the draft.

They've done a lot of things working around the margins, little pickups here there that are contributors and that that's like what they do, but it hasn't been great. He's number one. Oh yeah, the one for the past at least how I've done that, that's the third year I've done it. I said, like, they're getting graded on the total like, um, the whole body of work, body of work in their current job, and so it's hard to it's hard to move him off. That's about who who

would I put first? I also didn't know who to put there, like Bret Brett Beach was second with Andy Reid, and I heard from a couple of people that were like, it's really Andy Reid, It's not Brett Beach, which was interesting to me. Um, but he gets the credit from Mahomes even though Dorsey was there at the time. And then Howary Roseman is for Kevin Colber is three. Uh, John Lynch and Schneider were there up there at five and six. Chris Ballard. Chris Ballard I think is eight.

He's he's up there pretty high. Little John Robinson in the top ten. I thought, he's done, nice, nice job, tight Titans from and yes, check it out. But the fact you would who are you putting above them? That's fair, that's fair. But I think the idea of saying good by to Tom Brady and then the right now the organization is set up with Jared Stidham and Brian Hoyer, is a huge whole left by the man in charge. But then again, I we'll see, we'll see. I guess

why your editor has you writing this before the draft? Oh? Should we win in that direction? Shots fight at the editor. Well, I think because you could either do you can do it right before after the season. I guess it would. It would be another time. But you've gotten like a feel of their last draft class. We've gotten a feel of the you know, the free agency. Okay, I see that side of it as well. All right, well, you know what, obviously it is a juicy topic with a

lot of layers. Yeah, people, people don't like that patriot. I guess I'd wait and see about their quarterback position before I kill it, like whether Stidham's any good or whether they get a first you know, whether they do something and get someone new. Then how about does Beach slash Andy Reid at number one? And and maybe check to the format to include these guys that are the oars of their organization. I think there's there's something to be said there. Although their drafts have been a little

weird the last few years. M okay, moving on this is for Oh. By the way, the Patriots made their color Rush jersey their primary jerseys effective today, Greg, So congratulations on that. That's a popular move. UM. In other news, back to the Jaguars. You know what, I don't know what's going on with this organization. Yannak and Gokway is one of the best UH defensive players defensive lineman UH

in the a f C, and he wants out. He's frustrated that the Jags have yet to trade him, and all that bubbled over on Monday, UH when he went on social media and challenged the Jaguars to get a deal done, get him out of Jacksonville and in one of the things that you would have never happened, and there'd be no way for it to happen UH ten twenty years ago. It led to a back and forth, public back and forth with one of the team builders.

So I will play the role of Yannick and Gockway and Mark, will you play the role of Tony Khan. Yes to friend of the show. He's he's spoken with us before at the owners meetings. He is the UM what is his role exactly? He's owner of football and in charge of football analytics at the Jaguars, according to his Twitter profile. Okay, shodkn is his father. I think he's e v P. Now, yeah I was. I said I thought, and I was just going off the Twitter profile,

but that sounds right west. Here we go, Yannick hashtag free youn no answer at Tony Khan, stop hiding? Mo? All right now? This from Tony. Connie responds. He says, I'm not in hiding, sir, I'm in isolation getting ready for the draft. I've been pretty active on social media in isolation. But you wouldn't know that since you on followed me in parentheses again where the you? It runs by holding his face and all his friends are going

crazy behind him. Okay, since you're feeling my today. What Since you're feeling my today, let's both let the world in on the truth. We've been had a discussion that the charges game was my last game. You try to back to all the situation without answering any of my camps calls. Shaking my head. You spoiled bra holding up

people for no reason. Clown emoji. It's a new regime here. Sir, I think I thank you from the bottom of my heart for all of the contributions you made here that said, tweeting insults at me won't get you traded any faster. Only good trade compensation will do that. Please redirect your efforts into a more productive outlet. And you think it would be over at some point, but it keeps going.

Just trade me, I don't need the speech, and then a emoji of a finish line like a checker your flag, and then con you know, hits him up again, show me the compensation. I'm sure you're lead driving up the price today btw. By the way, ouch, and that's and that's kind of where things end. So this is grizzly. I don't think this is really the method that any

team executive should be um going down. But also you know, I was a big George Steinbrunner fan, and if Steinbrenner had Twitter, he would have been doing stuff like this all the time. So I guess I can't get on the high horse. Wes. What are your thoughts on it? Well, it's not very smart on Yannick and got wise part. It's letting emotion do the work of reason. If you're

trying to do a trade. Don't sabotage your own value in such a public way, just lighting fire to your trade value and putting the Jaguars in a very poor spot. I think it's just it's just not smart as far as a means to an end. I don't think you had hurt his value too much. I think there's gonna be a lot of interest and team teams, and it didn't. You know, it didn't hurt Jalen Ramsey and differently like teams understand he wants to get out. Um. I was

more taken by the little sentence. And I've seen a little bit of this in Jacksonville. It's a new regime, please, I mean the same people who hired Tom Coughlin are running the place. The same general manager you're there is running the place. The same coach has been there since since, uh, you know, Blake Bordles was on the team. Let's let's quit with I killed Coffins about as much as anyone else, but let's quit on like it's every it's everything is Tom Coffin's fault. Come on, I can't call it a

new regime if it's not a new regime. I just can't if the coach is there in the GMS there, it's not a new regime. I can't think of a team with more unhappy players that it just it just seems to be a stockpile of discord and they one of the weirder off seasons around. Also, I enjoyed it in Gotway's accent really cranking up as it as it went along. What accent would you say that is? I don't know. I don't know. It's kind of like a it's kind of like maybe the significant other of like

like the Lakeisha's mom impression. Maybe I don't like a Caribbean overtone, like a street heavy. I don't know. That's that's interesting. I guess everybody hears it in their own way. That's what's happening in the news, all right. As we promised, this is somebody that we're so thrilled to talk to because in a lot of ways, you could refer to him as the dean of American Draft insiders. That's how I see him. He's Bob McGinn. This is his thirty

sixth year working on his NFL Draft series. You could read him right now at the Athletic, previously at the Green Day Press Gazette, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. He had his own website for a little bit. Now he's at the Athletic Bob, welcome to the Around the NFL podcast. We're so excited to get educated by the dean. Let's tell that guy thanks for having me. Uh, you know this. We're all big fans because it's there's no way to prepare for the jarre aft from our standpoint without reading

your work. And this year especially, I'm like taking note of some of these quotes that you get, Bob. They're so juicy, they're so salacious. Do you think you've been around the game long enough and you obviously are highly respected in this realm, both as a football writer in general and a columnist and in this particular realm that these scouts and these gms and these personnel guys want to impress you like they want to give you the quote, and they feel proud to give you one that shows

up in your copy. I don't know if it's that, but I mean, these are long conversations with most guys, a lot of people, you know, they go out of their out of their way to spend a lot of time with me and so there's all kinds of you know, garbage in the middle of these conversations. But in these capsules I write, um the stuff. I have a lot of material to choose from, and and it's I usually try to get the quotes with some punch, you know, and you and you do it every time. It makes

it such a fun read. So we're gonna kind spend through some of the position groups and like and like Bob said, he he breaks it down by position group. And again, if you don't have a subscription, I think the Athletic is it for free right now? I think it might be. So make sure you're reading this. And if that doesn't hook you, I don't know what will.

But let's start with the quarterbacks. And it's fascinating and all the people that you spoke to when you spoke to uh, you know, many many, many plugged in people in the industry. Joe Burrow is by far the best prospect out there, and everyone expects him to go to Cincinnati at one. Two is the guy that that jumps out to everybody is the big wild card. And after reading your piece on this, Bob, it is an absolute

mystery to me. Um, you spoke to um personnel guys uh ten on the high end of scale of the scale in terms of concern level one to ten uh and the average of the panel was seven point six. And here's one of those juicy quotes I tell I'm talking about. There is concerned, serious concern about the Dura bill. He's at a high placed personnel man for an NFC team. The ankle, the hip, the size, you name it. It's

hard because you can't get your hands on him. Uh. This this does feel like one of the biggest wild cards in recent memory at the quarterback position. Bob, I agree totally. I mean, you know, not that long ago. I mean still, I guess the narrative out there is that he you know, he might be third in Detroit or do somebody come in come into that spot. I just don't know. I don't I didn't sense that at

all in these conversations. Um, you know he's got and his NFL pass or rating for his career would come compute to one thirty eight point one. And you know, I mean, it's just remarkable. Is there's never seen any that kind of efficiency unless Burrow this year NFL passer eating one three point seven. But um, you know, he played with fantastic receivers and you know, on and on and on. But in terms of the durability, he takes

all these shots, he doesn't protect himself. I covered bread fire for his entire career, and he would be recoiling after he would throw it. I mean, he took a lot of shots, but he just was never injured. He knew how to take a hit. Aaron Rodgers is the same way. I mean, he adopted a sliding posture after about his third or fourth year, and you know, he's escaped injury, but two has not done that. He's getting drilled and people estimate his forty between four eight five

and four nine. He's six ft even. He's strongly built. But boy, there's red flags all over on this durability you had. You had three teams had off the board entirely. Yeah. Yeah, Now, you know, it's easy for them to say, because you know two of them had, you know, a quarterback that they're not going to be dealing with. That's easy to say. But still, yeah, I do wonder with him because I

think it's gotten lost. You know, he had surgeries on both of his ankles, and he's a guy who's you don't even hear any concerns about his height, which I think shows how much quarterbacks change. I mean, he's he's six foot tall. He's maybe not as athletics as some

of the highly drafted quarterbacks. How much how much of this with him potentially slipping do you think is about his game and his game style and that, like, he's not a guy with a big arm who's not necessarily you know, above average athletically, and he has these injuries. So as someone who doesn't follow the college game, and I and I know, the numbers are outrageous, and he's known as a great leader and everything, and that's why he will get drafted high. But that's not the profile

of many guys that we've heard getting drafted early. Injury prone, you know, shorter and not necessarily like a difference maker athletically. No, it isn't he um uh, fantastic release right and um. But again, he had all these clear window throws, people wide opening things like that, and he would droll a ball in there. You know, we all saw it and it was it was like a shooting gallery. Um. But again, his pick came when there was pressure. Scouts don't feel

he really handled the pressure real well. Um, he's short. I mean it's hard to see over that certainly. Ah, he's with a great system and great players all around him, tremendous offensive line. Um, I just don't see it. I mean, in talking to all these people, it just doesn't ring. You know, he doesn't ring like a top ten or twelve guys guide even despite the durability issues. It just doesn't. I mean, when I started this about a month ago or five weeks ago, I was expecting more. But boy,

in the inflection of these voices, it's not there. One thing uh that I love about your capsules is uh, you know, in the time of reading then it doesn't take long. Uh. The top half, I fall totally in love, um with quarterback acts based on the positive, glowing comments from scouts. But then in the back half, I'm suddenly

terrified of the player. And I just wonder when you're when you're doing these together and you've been doing it for so long, you've got a guy like Joe Burrow and and and across the board, and you know, the comments were exceedingly positive and kind of stuff we've never seen before. Um about a player's ability to process. Uh, there's a little bit of that with some of the other guys too, But do you have a pretty fair level of suspicion about any type of quarterback at this

point having done it so long. I look at a guy like Justin Herbert, who people are talking about someone maybe trading up for. But there's the personality stuff. Every one of these guys seem to have something um that would be in the area of red flag. Are you do you look at like Joe Burrow, for instance, is someone that is truly different than prospects that have come

down the pike previously. Let me just mention this, you know, I mean a lot of people accuse me of being negative in my writing on the draft, but guys, if you were inside those draft rooms, it's a lot more brutal than the way I write it. I mean, this is their livelihood, the future of these franchises, and they are they're not worried about being politically correct. In these draft rooms. They are ripping, they are praising, they are

going back and forth, debating, arguing with each other. It gets intense, and so you know you're right the way give you the good early and then but then there's strength and then there's weaknesses. I'm just trying to be realistic and honest and take people inside where these people, you know, real people, the decision makers in the area, skeletson whoever are talking. So back to Burrow. Um, I don't see many negatives from anybody on Burrow. Yeah, you know,

it's sort of a one year wonder. But I mean this was such a one year wonder. And he wasn't that bad as a junior either. UM. I talked to a lot of people trying to compare them. Okay, is he on the wreck on the level of oh, some people bring up Andy Dalton. Some people, Um, I said, well, is he as good as Stafford or Carson Wentz? They kind of paused, some say yeah, some say no. But then another guy, one of the last people I talked to, he said, oh, and way above that stuff, way above

Stafford and Ryan. He said, he's in there with Peyton, Manning and Rogers, anybody you want to name boy. Yeah, So there is just um they love this guy as a as a as a kid. We handle himself and he throws it well enough, and he's got good size, thirty high test score. Small hands though, small hands though, come on, the biggest hands in recent memory was Mark Sanchez for the record. So let's count down, think ten

and a half. Wow. Okay, Bob. One of the things we get from from your articles is how much the NFL changes from year to year, and we see quotes about stationary players can't get drafted anymore. Um nose tackles. There's a guy one of your quarterbacks, Jalen Hurts, who from reading it, I sort of get a Taysom Hill since the team see him as a football player and a guy you in your building, but not necessarily as a starting quarterback. Is that sort of a do you see him as a guy who's going to have a

tastom he'll like role? Yeah, that's interesting comparison. Hadn't thought of that. That makes some sense though. Um I would agree with that that he's kind of a backup maybe gadget guy, special teams whatever. But he threw it so well at the combine, you know, without pads on his shoulders and against air and everything. But he looked like a real passer that day. Uh he'll yeah, maybe he you know, I mean he hurt as a terrific runner, and you know, you love the kid and the transfer

and the way handled all that. I like him, um seems like about a third rounder and maybe he can have a good career doing a lot of things. Bob, you met, You mentioned Joe Burrow. You think, you know, kind of checks all the boxes. Maybe you know, not the biggest arm in the world, but he makes so many plays, you know, off structure that you know, I

can imagine every team is going to be confident. And but then you look at the rest of the LSU team and I do under like a talk into the scouts how much they are trying to account for how

ridiculously dominant that offense was. That it almost felt like Joe Brady was there running of pro offense and they were going up against a lower level of you know, college coaches that guys and and I'm specifically talking about Justin Jefferson, like and maybe they're they're running back to Edward Shailaire that he's so open all the time and

the productions just off the charts. But when you watch Jefferson and some of the other LSU players, is there like a concern that it's just the scheme like creating these numbers and Jefferson especially compared to all those other receivers out there, you know, isn't maybe as special or unique just as an individual talent. To a degree there is.

But then guys, when I start talking about Chase and Jefferson and that Marshall guy and the running back, then they say, yeah, but Bob, look at that offensive line. He said, yeah, the center's okay, but you know, and the left tackle was an athlete who got suspended, he said. The other three guys, there wasn't all that much there, he said, That's why he had to scramble and move. He said, you know, he looked like Brady kind of

negotiating the pocket, climbing up. So I you know, yeah, supporting cast was I mean great on the at the skill positions, but not real great upfront in the wide receiver group. Bob, there's a quote you have near the top of your capsule. This is maybe the deepest wide receiver group, said a longtime a f C personnel man. H But as far as like a Julio as in Julio Jones or Calvin Johnson, absolutely not. I've seen it

in some places. And just so you know, Bob, I'm sure he plugged in on on me and my career in this podcast. I'm a big Jets fan, and so with with the Jets sitting at eleven, um Ceedee Lamb is a guy that our our friend, some people's friend,

Daniel Jeremiah has going to them. But when you keep in the mind of quote like that and the idea that this is such a deep wide receiver class, do you buy into the theory out there that it would be a mistake to be taking a wide receiver in that ten to twelve to thirteen range when you could get another need, a higher end player perhaps, and then get still a quality wide receiver later in the draft in the second or third round. Because we're talking serious

depth this year. Yes, I do, I do. You know, um, there's a lot of balance, and you can you're gonna get them from at eight nineties something like that. They're gonna be really good players. But still, guys, don't you think somebody from this these top ten or eleven people are going to be very close to Julio Jones or Calvin Johnson. I just kind of do. Somebody's going to emerge here, and I don't know who it is, but there's enough talent on this board to think there's gonna

be one real shining light. And all these teams are thinking that too. So if they pass and they go take tackles, who are you know, okay serviceable and all that. But if they passed the guy they totally believe in, we know the game is, it's scoring now and it's perimeter based game. Past that guy, you might regret it. Yeah, I mean that you could see why if you're a guy like John Gruden or something that the some of these white outs are just too tantalizing to move on.

But there are UM in that cluster of the Jets and Browns and other clubs with real legitimate UM offensive line tackle needs. And I can't remember a draft where there were so many UM top ten first, you know, fifteen pick projections of tackles that are just clustered together. And coming out of this project, did you view one of the tackles as clearly better than the others or did anyone particularly scare you? Because for me, for us jumping in, it just seem like a big stack of

guys and like, who's what's the differentiator here? Man? They were those top four. In my I've never had such a close pole on the top four we're just almost on top of each other. Seventy one and seventy one point. Um, you know, I mean Ezra Cleveland has a chance to get in the first round. He's really a good pass blocker. He's been compared by once got to David Bachtiar and Brian Blaga, the team I covered for years. So um

and Austin Jackson. I mean, he donates his bone marrow to his sister, and you know he pays the price his final year at USC. But he's a lot better than he showed. Um, we know about the other ones, uh, I mean there are other guys. I can't say who's going to come out of it. I certainly like Robert Hunt a lot too from Louisiana, whether it's a guard or a tackle. Um, it's a good group. But beyond your draft series, we read your Packers game recaps as well,

and they're very good. I think out of all the guys I've read over the years, you come the closest to a style. It's like dr Z Paul Paul's Immerman. Is that something that you did on purpose? Was he a role model or is that just a coincidence? I mean, I that's how I basically how I learned to write. I've been a subscriber to Sports Holds Story since I was about eight, and I've read, you know, every issue. I saved those issues for forty years. When I eventually moved,

I had to get rid of them all. But and that's where I mean. The writing was so beautiful and the editing was phenomenal. That, um, that's where I think all of us learned to write. Really. UM. I certainly admired Paul. I knew him a little bit, not a lot. Um. I'll mention another guy who influenced me to Jerry Green of the Detroit News. He would write for Street and Smith's every year, the NFC Central Preview and and I was grew up in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. And I've told

Jerry this. He had an entirely different style that was way way early for his time. And he was a lot like Paul's Immerman um. And he was analytic when nobody else was. And so I love Jerry's covered every Super Bowl, and he influenced me quite a bit. Yeah, for our listeners, who haven't you know heard me, you know, honk about dr Z In the last couple of years, it's been that long. Like The Thinking Man's Guy at to Football to me, is still the best book on football,

at least if you're like a young writer. You're getting into the business on how to think about football even if you don't write. And and it's a it's hard to imagine, uh, this the type of book coming out, and Mark is showing the video to me of a nice looking first addition, it's hard to imagine someone getting the access that he had, but just even the way to think about the game, there's nothing better. While we're

on the topic though, of these game recap spot. Before we let you go, I got to ask you about Aaron Rodgers because, um, you're you're tough on him. Sometimes I feel I don't know what your relationship. How is your relationship with Aaron Rodgers right now? Good starting point? Well, I haven't seen him in a couple of years, so I'm not sure. Um, I'm I'm just curious, um, where

you see him right now? Because it's obviously when you get a reputation like you know, if someone like Rogers and you have the high end play, you mostly just hear all positive positivity, especially from a national level. But there's a certain school of thinking, and you've been writing about it certainly that he has not been the same player the last three or four years. I guess I just be curious before you go, uh like, where you see he is now um compared to where he was

earlier in his career. You know, some people think he slipped physically. I don't one bit. He's a you know, workout maniac in the off season. He takes care of tremendous care of his body. I do not think he slipped physically. I think his arm is fine. I don't see any problems with any of that. But you just gotta do it, you know. And um, I mean, he's got a good enough supporting cast. He's got one one fantastic receiver, and you know he said he's got a

great running back. I mean, yeah, the other white oults and tight ends weren't very good due year, but the old line was real solid. So, you know, supporting cast come and go, and he has to make people better. He can take them to the Super Bowl any year. He hasn't been there in about a decade. I mean, it's time, really, And he's certainly one of the ten best qbs in the league without you know, any doubt, and there's a lot of good qbs in this league, and he had his team in the NFC title game

last year. He just has to do it. Let me connect some dots there, Bob. So you say physically he's the same exact guy his supporting cast. It's a little bit overstated, um that he's in some type of disadvantage position because he does have some big time players. Is it Is it coaching that's kept his his production more pedestrian recent years? Is it the mental side of things?

Is that off the field? Is there anything else that you can add on kind of your feeling on where Rogers has been the last couple of years compared to that peak in the beginning of last decade, And so it certainly hasn't been coaching. I mean, Mike McCarthy, if he told me this once, he told told it to me twenty times. His goal was to make the quarterback look great. That was his entire goal as a coach, number one objective, and he built everything around Rodgers and

Floor has done the same thing. The system is made order for Aaron Rodgers, and he is a good player, and he just has to get back to a great level. Um. Uh. He knows his mind and his ability to process everything is you know, beyond incredible. Really um. He can throw accurately, he can still scramble at age thirty six. Um. But for some reason he just hasn't really done it here, played really well, a little bit little stretches, but for

the last five or six years it's not been consistently elite. Alright, good answer, Thank you so much for your your time, Bob. And again, the dean of a Erican Draft Insiders, that's what I call him, Bob McGinn, and you could read him at the Athletic. The Athletic is a subscription service, but not right now during this COVID nineteen madness. And speaking of that, Bob, I hope all is well with you and your family and you stay well, and we hope to hear from you again soon. We'll be reading

you in the meantime. Thanks very much, guys, take care. Thanks. Oh that was great, Bob McGinn, nice guy. Ye uh he go. He to me falls into the category of you know, and this is a this is a narrowing group, gentleman scribe. He just seemed like um an incredibly uh warm uh gentle individual who is sitting on way more football information um than most men in America. Ahead, I was gonna say, he wrote a great book too, is like a super Bowl book, um, where he talked to

players played in each Super Bowl. I recommend that he He kind of speaks quietly, but you know, carry's a big stick you underneath all of that, Like he's gonna let you know what he thinks. And we got some interviews with him. He's an opinionated guy, like, way more opinionated than he showed before. He was very nice and genial though, And we got this question all the time on Twitter and d m s and things of that nature. How do I get into the business, How do I

um get involved? What do I have to do to put myself in position to be find success? Well, doing things like reading Bob mcgins columns, finding the people that are the best at what they do in terms of how they followed the sport, and just reading guys like him. There's there's a tip for you. So check it out. All right, big week, Like we said, Monday show in the books, Tomorrow Tuesday, the Twitter Show Live and also the Mark Sessler mock Draft. Mark you ready for that?

I am. You know, this thing is changing by the minute. I don't know how else to describe it. On the fact that I thought I would spend just a little bit of time on it. It is an all consuming um project that a long way to go. Get ready, fluid fluid Uh, that's coming up Tuesday Wednesday. We're gonna do some sandwich props connected to the draft also, and it's been two years uh in the making. Spice Rack returns with his predictions on the guys who will hit in a big way, kind of five guys that Spicy

believes in. Okay, we've had Jonathan Williams in the past, good luck we've had We've had, you know some Spicy has had some issues in the past. In the segment, sometimes he's he's shined and then sometimes he's cratered. So it's that's one of the things that are exciting about this spice Rack in Parts Unknown like the Ultimate Warrior, sharing his draft hot takes. Remember the year he just

wouldn't give us. He came on and then he decided, no, I'm not gonna give you by Sleepers A volatile individual. I still don't know it was because he was unprepared or he was making some type of statement like or it was like a punk rock type move. I'll never know, you say he could He's gonna give us five names. It could be eight names, and it could be one or none. You'll get what you get about so spicy.

Coming back to the Around the NFL podcast on Wednesday, Thursday, the Draft, of course, we will be recording immediately upon the completion of the first round with a show going up that night, and then we'll have another show. That show will stand for Friday, and then we'll have another show wrapping up the whole draft that we will record on Saturday night and get up as soon as possible.

So that's our draft. We're coming up. It's time. Dan Hanson signing off for Quiet Storm, the Mailman, the Old Boss, Rick Hollywood, Thank you, Bob mc again of the Athletics until Tuesday. S