The Difference Between Playing To Win And Playing Not To Lose (2035)

And that energy has always been very different for me , and now , with a little bit more abundance , I feel way better about running towards things as opposed to away from them .

There's you're sitting at a table and somebody gives you 100 pennies and you're just hanging on to those pennies . You could put a penny in the middle of the table , you might win 5 pennies , you might win 10 pennies , but that's not how you're thinking . You're thinking I have to hang on to all of the pennies that I have . That's playing not to lose .

Playing to win is saying well , I have these pennies , let me put one in and see what happens , because me putting one in gives me an opportunity to win , maybe five or 10 or whatever it is . But even that energy .

So if we think of if you're down to your last $20 , you're most likely going to play not to lose , unless you're somebody who has a very high amount of self-belief , because I think that engages somebody who has a very high level of self-belief .

And I think this is why it's really hard to give advice , because when Alan's back is against the wall , he doesn't play not to lose , he plays to win .

When my back is up against the wall , I play not to lose , and it's been a very interesting case study for you and I to be working together for as long as we have , because I was on a podcast yesterday and they were asking about something and I said well , I think one of the important understandings for me is , if we have a good amount of money in the

bank , almost everything else is fine . Yeah , I'll be overwhelmed , yeah , I'll be under pressure , but that allows me to play to win as opposed to playing not to lose , like I've been doing for most of my life

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Honestly , if you do have really high levels of self-efficacy that's what it's called in psychology internally , unconsciously and subconsciously , the record you have playing is I got this , I can do it , I got this , we got this , we can do it , we got this then most likely , you are ignited by the prospect of losing .

So when you and I were at the charity event and we played horse , I started to really kick into high gear when you started to beat me . It motivates me to be behind . I like being behind .

It gives me focus , it gives me and I know that that's not always the case for some people , like when I I've been to the gym with people that are way ahead of me and , while I definitely have the wow , like whoa , moment of holy crap , it does , it motivates and inspires me so much .

So I went to the gym one time with someone who was way ahead of me and it was definitely a gut check for me .

He was warming up with the weights that I max with on shoulder press and he's huge 230 pounds , six foot four just a monster and I had the gut check moment and the next day I was super motivated , like to a whole nother level , and the next few months after that I really dialed up . Can you explain , kev , what your reaction ?

What would it be like to be on the other end of that Shut

?

I don't think that's a super big problem for me , because I want to be success , abundance , certainty . It creates safety for me and when . I'm safe . I feel like , okay , what would you rather do ?

Would you rather be losing a fight and you have to get a knockout in the last round , or would you rather be winning the fight and then you can kind of I won't say play it safe ? But you know , you just have to keep doing what you're doing and you'll win the fight . Those are two very , very different energies .

One energy is I'm behind and I got to land . I got to . Something miraculous has to happen . And the other one is all right , everything I'm doing is working really well . I just have to keep doing the same thing in the same way .

You shut down Too little contrast and I'm not ignited so for you , it motivates you to have someone with you that's ahead of you but not ahead of you by so much that it shuts you down , type of thing .

I would say so yeah , because one of the things excuse me , it's late , I'm so sorry everybody , my , my throat's not great right now and I'll have to keep doing that . Unfortunately , a production team . If you can do anything about that , I appreciate it , if you can .

I totally understand One of the things that happens to me and I'm working really hard on this , but I do get complacent really quickly when we are winning and you say that that's not a problem for you .

But it doesn't make me want less , if that makes sense .

Oh yeah , I could use some new workout sweats like let me order those yeah but outside of that it's not . It's not like well , we have money in the bank so I can be done at two today . It says I don . It doesn't really work that way .

When you set a goal in the future , you lose that goal if you don't align with it . But to bring it back to the practicality of this episode , I do think I step off the gas . When we're winning a little bit , it's not a lot , like I'm not suddenly lazy , like that's not what I'm talking about . But when we're losing , it's another level of .

There's this thing called the challenge skills sweet spot that I keep talking about . I've been talking about it for years . We interviewed Steven Kotler . The book the Art of Impossible is behind me . It's one of the . I think it's one of the . I think it's one of the most honest books about achievement ever written .

It's very honest , it's very hardcore , but it's . He essentially says I've written 12 books . Two of them are in a drawer , 10 of them are published and never once did I do a project , a book project . Finish a book , publish a book .

Finish writing a manuscript of a book without at one point , being in the middle of the floor , completely ungluing , punching the floor and like screaming at the ceiling . I think that's very honest . I think that's an honest book . I mean , when you have a lot to do and very little time to do it .

If we're all playing not to lose and playing to win , you only have a limited amount of time . You have a limited amount of effort . It's too much pressure sometimes , but too little pressure isn't good either . That is the point the challenge skills sweet spot in the Art

of Impossible . He talks about it . It's changes for each person and he said this to us in the interview and I do agree with him . He said some people need 40% outside their comfort zone to be ignited , to be fully ignited . Some people only need 4% or 3% . And he said to us and this is his words , not mine he said Alan is a 40% person .

He needs to be 40 40 outside his comfort zone to be fully focused and ignited and to get into flow . This is called what's known as flow triggers , aka Anyone out there watching or listening . Think about the last time you were in the zone and you were just dialed in , emily and I we started a new morning routine .

I had a 10 30 am Call today and we went to bed I think around like 9 , 30 , 10 ish and we slept long . She got a 95 sleep score , I got a 93 , so we slept really well . I got up early , I did my morning routine , boom , boom , boom . And then we have this thing we call seal team , where it means listen , game time , like don't talk , let's .

I need you to be effective right now . So I woke her up and I said seal team , we're either not going to go to the gym today or we're going to go to the gym and I'm . I mean , I was in the shower rinsing off , not 10 minutes before my first coaching session and that sucks . I hate that .

It genuinely blows Like the quality of life really sucks when you don't plan ahead . Everyone knows that . You know what it's like to be late . You know what it's like to be not on point . It's the worst . But it was either that or don't go to the gym . And I did not want to skip . I don't want to skip workouts if we can help it .

And last week when we said we were going 10 out of 10 but we had to rush in , rush out . You know , obviously it's commute traffic , all this kind of stuff . What's my point ? Too much pressure is not good , but too little pressure is not good either .

And this all comes down to your own unique sweet spot , like I do believe that if you had a million dollars in the bank , it would .

It would change a little , maybe , maybe not a lot , maybe not as much as me , but in order for me to be focused at level 10 and ignited at level 10 and dialed in at level 10 , seal team , so to speak I have to be under some level of pressure .

And when I'm not under any pressure , I don't feel like I'm growing , I don't feel focused and I don't get into flow as much . Now there's also us trying to record an episode in 15 minutes when we only have 17 , and I don't get into flow because it's too much pressure . So it really depends .

And so Stephen Kotler said that I need 40% outside my comfort zone in order to stay in flow . Kev needs 4% or 3% , I forget the exact number . But for anyone out there watching or listening , rather than us talking about us for this episode , the point of it , figure out which end you're on . Are you ?

Are you , do you get complacent when you're winning , like I do , or do you actually get more abundant and more aspirational and more goal oriented when you have abundance ? Or are you and the alternative of that , and do you think you're playing more to win or playing more not to lose ? And if so , what as well ?

I love that movie Again , don't ask me about the main character in real life , that's not what it's about . But there's a scene in the movie where Leonardo DiCaprio is saying oh , you lost your car . What is it Like ? Dial , make a dial , sell Whatever oh , your wife's mad at you . Dial Whatever your kids hate you , you're broke . Dial , dial , dial .

That's not the way I work . It doesn't work like that for me . It's not okay . Things are terrible , go play to win . When things are terrible , I play not to lose , and I think that's the best example I can give is I was .

I did a speech for one of our clients has a bunch of clients who are looking to start podcasts and she said I'd love to have you come in and speak about podcasting and answer any questions . And I said yeah , of course I'd love to .

And a bunch of people booked podcast breakthrough sessions and I did one yesterday or the day before and the person said I'd love to work with you , send me the pricing and let me know how much it is . I was like yeah , of course , I sent them everything and they responded and said awesome , I'll reach out .

In a few months I'm going to get all my ducks in a row , super excited to work together . Playing my ducks in a row , super excited to work together , playing to win , is saying awesome . If you have any questions in the meantime , do not hesitate to reach out . We'll be ready and we very much look forward to working with you . That's playing to win .

Playing not to lose is I can't wait a couple months . This has to happen now . So what can I do to get this person ? And that's how you fuck things up .

Yes , we always were , but I didn't always feel like we were , so it wouldn't . I wouldn't have been able to be as abundant with my response as I was . Next level

nation . We would love to invite you to our 18th round of next level group coaching . It is the next level podcast accelerator . If you are a podcaster who wants to level yourself up , level your podcast up and level your business up , this 12-week program is perfect for you .

It comes to less than $25 per session for the 12 sessions . Kevin or I will be on every single one of them . We hope to see you there . Well , this comes down to the conversation , too , about too much abundance and too much scarcity . There were times in my life we talk about productive paranoia and if you are too abundant , you won't be humble enough .

Too abundant , you won't be humble enough , you'll basically celebrate before you get in the end zone . I've been so guilty of that . I mean , there were times in the past where I would kick my own ass . If I could go back , I'd be like dude , you need to scarcity up . Like you're too abundant , you got to stop listening to these books .

Like you are broke as a joke and you better get it together . You are too abundant for your current circumstances and you're going to have to pay the piper eventually .

But there are other times where I got to say this I do believe that if you now I got to be clear about this If we're just talking about success and we're not talking about fulfillment , just success , goals , success , external achievement you basically can never get overly abundant . The moment you get overly abundant , you are immediately getting complacent and losing .

In a way . You're arriving instead of striving . Now a lot of people say , say well , I had one person at the speech that I gave it was sort of their first exposure to business and he said well , what's the point of making all those millions of dollars if you didn't enjoy your journey along the way ?

And I said well , what you're missing from that equation is the snowball that you create from momentum . You siphon some of it off the snowball Just because the snowball is compounding and you're getting more and more and more long-term success doesn't mean that you don't get to improve your quality of life along the way , like that's what it should be .

I have one client he's definitely listening what's up , brother ? And he is now integrating . So he's going to start doing potentially Airbnb or whatever , and he's in real estate and he used to be sacrifice , sacrifice , sacrifice .

Now he used to have the investor mindset of play to win long term , but I'm going to lose right now , which I actually think is where a lot of these really successful people start .

And then , when they start to build momentum and they start to actually get success and they start to actually make you know hundreds of thousands , okay , 500,000 , okay , but it keeps rising All of a sudden it's wait a minute . I don't know if I want to suffer for an additional 20 years .

I need to actually have some lifestyle as well , and so we've been talking a lot lately about how do we ? Here's the truth of it the long-term snowball will slow down when you start siphoning some off of it , like you .

If you picture a big a snowball rolling down a hill , when you siphon some off the snowball , it does slow down the progression of the snowball getting bigger . That's just the way wealth works . However , you can improve your quality of life drastically along the way , and now every decision you make is different .

So , bringing this back to the original point of the episode , though , it all depends on your goal . Everything depends on your goal , and your goal depends on your self-belief . So , and then your temperament . The challenge skill is sweet spot .

There are times in the past where I was overly complacent and overly abundant , when I should have been more dialed in in my opinion .

There are other times when we were doing really well and I was still working , you know , 12 hours every weekend with an empty parking lot outside the studio while everyone else had fun and enjoyed their summer I it depends on your level of goal .

Everything does my goals actually require that and I I want to be more honest with everybody about that Like my goals actually required me to work more , not less . When I look back , I People are like , oh , I wish I hadn't worked so hard , I wish I hadn't worried so much .

I don't look back and think that I look back and say , alan , you were a little overly complacent , to be completely honest , but it's all based on my goal In fitness . I mean , I totally stepped off the gas , I was way too abundant .

This fitness thing , it doesn't matter if I'm jacked , that doesn't pay the bills , that doesn't grow the business right .

But I think the most important thing is understanding yourself , because you might not value lifestyle as much as somebody else does , so you're willing to sacrifice more , quote unquote . I think that this is the number one question I would ask what is sustainable for you ? That's the question what is sustainable for you ?

Because I've had times where I tell Alan , like we're about to do an entire rebuild Because what we're doing right now just is not sustainable .

And I was like , because I don't want it , it's a normal day man . I want to win the show . I don't want a fucking cheat meal . I'm starving , but I want to . I didn't sign up so you would Wish me a happy . That's not why I'm working with you , so you give me my birthday off . It's similar . It's like Did I know what this would take ?

No , I didn't , but I also I don't know . I don't want to be the the one who slows the Snowball down , are you ?

I'm going to look back and say , alan , you should have worked harder . This has taken a lot longer than I expected . Yeah , and there's definitely a lot of other things that I would have done better . I mean , I would have refocused my time and effort , I would have worked way smarter . I wouldn't have just worked harder , I would have worked way smarter .

Right , more than working harder , honestly , I , but I definitely wasn't maxed out . No way , no way , and I think that that's that's got to be a piece of this right . Like I very rare , I don't want to make it .

It's one of those things where someone recently , uh , I felt unseen about something recently behind the scenes and I said , alan , I had this conversation myself . Alan , you can't make it look easy and then be upset that no one feels bad for you . My whole goal is not to make this look hard . I'm not trying to make it look tough . Eight episodes a week .

You know all these clients . Boom , boom , boom , ceo , blah , blah , blah . So it's . I can't really be upset when no one feels bad , when I do kind of make it look easy from the outside in , even though from the inside out you said to me one time I had no idea you were even struggling .

And the truth the matter is is I'm not maxed out and we're going to talk about that infinite game in an episode soon . But like , how often did you feel maxed out ? Because I think that'll be valuable for the listeners too . Like , if you're out there watching or listening , do you feel maxed out right now ?

Because if you actually do feel maxed out , the last thing you should do is dial it up .

Oh , you guys work a 14 hour day like that's not that bad , all things considered . I get to work in my sweatpants like it's not that bad . I'm not out here swinging a hammer , working in a hot attic or whatever what were you playing not to lose ?

You know I've been doing this for three months . I just want to . I don't want to trade my time for money anymore . It's like okay , trades , and that's why the business is growing . It's not 100 because we raised our prices to ten thousand dollars . Right , that's like that , ain't it ? That's . That's a business tangent alan will talk about on on bgu what were

you ?

And I was playing not to be disliked and not to be villainized , and once I accepted that that was inevitable , I feel like I was really unlocked and unleashed . What were you playing ? Not to lose ?

But , that's why it's so hard , because it was like you traded in quality of life because you believed in the promise .

When I got a new car , it didn't make me say like , alright , cool , I got a nice car , I can slow down if anything . I was like , oh shit , I really wish I didn't get this thing . This is gonna be .

You got to be really careful with this , so everyone out there watching or listening .

Otherwise , I have to give up my goals and dreams , and I can't do that . I have to give up my goals and dreams and I can't do that . I have to give up my potential . I would rather I had this honest conversation and I'll get off the soapbox in a second .

I had this honest conversation with myself Alan , would you regret losing friends more or losing reaching your potential more ? And I knew my answer I didn't want to lose either , right ? I didn't want to lose any friends , right ? I didn't want to lose any friends , Like , if it was up to me , it wouldn't be that way .

But I did have the honest conversation inside of myself of like I would regret not reaching my potential more . I would personally and I've been there , you know , when I wasn't reaching my potential . So everyone has to kind of have that honest conversations with themselves and then figure out all of us are playing not to lose .

Everybody I know is everyone I coach is you got to identify what it is and then face that fear and now you can really unlock which is really powerful .

, we love you , we appreciate you , grateful for each and every one of you , and at NLU we don't have fans , we have family . We will talk to you all tomorrow .