The Impact of Spotify and Podbean’s IAB Departure #587

- Welcome to the New Media Show. We're - Back doing the new media show again. - People are actually gonna listen to this junk. - We do it live. We're - Live right now. We'll just do - It live. We're going live. We're going live. - We just can't get enough. The new media show, let's - Go. Just do it live. - We're going live, we're going live - By being baboon - The new media show. If you do it live, just do it - Live. Do it live. Going live - The new media show unlike Adam Curry.

And you're more like John c Devora, - I think. I'm Adam Curry, and you're the old Mudge. - We do it live doing the new media show again, - The new media show - Technology. - We make it sound so special. And yes, we are live and lit with new podcast apps. From podcast apps.com. Grab yourself one of those finagled podcasting apps. You can watch us live and you can listen live, and you can see us live just about everywhere it's possible to consume a video podcast, Rob, - That is true.

Done, that is an accurate statement that you have made today, - indeed. And matter of fact, I would've said, let's go. And I went over and almost pushed the button and you would've not gotten a stream because I had the, the max destination set in, uh, in my Restream dashboard, and it, it would've went, went the wrong way. So I, I clicked the right, clicked the right button. - Well, here, let me see if it's there. And - It, it should be there, so, you know, you should be good.

Yeah, it's, yeah. So yeah. Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. And, uh, happy Wednesday to you, - Hump Day, right? - Oh, man. - , - You know, I'm back to the point again. You know, I, AI took me a year not needing assistant, but I'm right at the edge. Again, I'm at the point now where I might actually have to hire somebody. Um, and the thing is, I'm thinking in my head, if I hire someone to be my assistant, it's gonna take me six months to train them and Yeah.

- Because they probably haven't done all the AI research and the other thing we've been doing. - Well, it's just everything. And I'm thinking, where do I put them? If I do right. Do I, do I hire someone local or do I, you know, um, I, I don't know it, we will see , uh, you know, but yeah, I, my head has been underwater for literally the last week and a half. Um, you know, I, I got home last night about eight 30, and my mom text me, oh, you stop for dinner.

I said, no, I, I didn't leave the office until eight 15 last night. So, yeah, I mean, that's what you do, right? When you, uh, yeah. When you got too much to do. You just stay and work longer. But, um, eh, I, no one cares. Everyone's working hard, so. Yeah, - That's right. Well, especially now, people are really concentrating and working hard now because of just the, the tight market that we're in right now.

But it, it looks to me like, uh, things aren't so tight over at, uh, Spotify right now, though, - Well, okay. Well, here, here's the thing. Spotify made some money. - Yeah. - You know, and, uh, we all saw the IEB news where they are not going to be certified anymore. And by the word, there is no such word as IB compliant that's not even supposed to be utilized. Um, and I wish, right. You know, that's, that's, that's a whole topic in itself.

But, um, Ja James claims that I used IB compliant in 2018, and maybe I did, but it was, you know, while we were being certified. - Well, but it isn't that the terminology that the IEB uses - Though? No, IEB certified, if you look at there is the, - Their artwork though, it says compliance. Yeah. - So whatever the logo says is what we're the, - It's always been a very good - Confusing thing.

The official, the official word, and I guess I should go over and look and actually see, it's so whatever we are Ivy certified compliant . - And in some ways, you know, if you look at what Spotify has chosen to do here, and even Podbean has chosen to do this too. It, it, it kind of plays into that narrative, doesn't it? Well, um, what that we're compliant, but what, you know, it's, - There's two or three things at play here. Number one, IEB has changed how their membership tiering is priced.

Oh, it used to be. Oh, they have, it used to be on advertising. Okay. So don't quote me. You - Go on revenue. Right? - On revenue. Revenue, advertising revenue, I think it was gross. - And it's not based on that. Now, - Now it's switched to your revenue, corporate revenue. - Oh, overall revenue. - Yeah, overall revenue. So that takes us all, I think this next year, this year, I think we paid the same amount.

I think whatever that number, I know what the number is, I'm not gonna announce it, but next year, the, depending on your revenue Mm-Hmm. , um, your, your cost will go up just to maintain membership. And then they brought the cost down on Recertifications. So, again, don't quote me what the recert cost is, and I don't know if they public, I think they've got it publicly published, but it's lower than it's ever been. So in other words, they lose lowered the recertification costs.

Right? Now, we had just matter of fact, uh, late last week, or even, I don't know, I had sent the tech lab a message, Hey, send the paperwork over. We wanna get started on our recert. And then of course, this news comes out that Spotify, chartable - Megaphone, - Megaphone Pod Bean, - And Spotify for podcasters. So that, that is quite a group of, of companies, um, inside of Spotify that are no longer going to be considered to be, I guess, certified compliant - .

So here's the thing to look at on the Spotify side, is that you have probably better metrics internally because it's all being done via the app. They can track on the privacy side. They know who you are. They know, they, they, and this is why I've never been a fan of Spotify, is, you know, they, they know everything about you. Yeah. Because you've signed into the account and you're, and so they have, they have, uh, client side deeper metrics.

They have client side data that they can use that are probably better than any podcast host is going to be able to provide, because we don't have no client side data or apps. You know, basically we, we have to still use raw download files where anything that's being consumed on Spotify is, is tracked, um, all the way through.

So I'm sure then for megaphone, it probably has, you know, minimal impact, um, charitable, well, they lose their ability to say they're certified, um, or whatever the official term we're supposed to use. Right. And, um, so in the end, um, what does that mean? Now, you know, if I look at it from pod bean's perspective, if Pod Bean's not doing a lot of advertising on their own, then they can rely on pod track or Blueberry or whoever.

Well, actually can't, because you can't use a third party stats in Pod Bean. So the people that get screwed on Podbean are really the ones that are doing their own deals. So those podcasters are doing their own ad deals at Podbean, probably will have to look for a new home if they want, if, if the buyer raises questions about their, their statistics, which they probably will, because, you know, it's a question that's asked all the time.

- Yeah. Isn't it kind of a thing that will be impactful over a period of time? I, I would imagine, because they're likely to be IABV 2.1 kind of compliant. Right. They're - Not certified. Well, when it was the last time, I don't know what their last level of certification is, so - Yeah. I'm not sure either. - So, you know, regardless, it's, - Yeah, - They're being dropped. They're not on the list.

They can say what they want, but the, it's up to the IEB to determine if they want to come over and say, you can't say that. - Yeah. But if, if, let's say one of these companies exports their, their metrics, right? And they show it to an advertiser currently today, um, pretty much the advertiser is probably gonna trust those numbers because it is, that company was formally certified, right? So, so it's not like, yeah.

Maybe their numbers, maybe over time what will happen is that the numbers will be, I guess, um, higher than they should be. Right? Who knows. That's kind of what happens here, right? Is is it, as the standard gets more and more refined, I think that the numbers may drop. - Right? I think if you look at the update Mm-Hmm. - , - Um, there's probably not that many more technical requirements between Yeah. What was and what is, uh, right.

So, you know, that is what, but it's really truly, you know, but to be honest with you, everyone's touching code all the time. Yeah. And if you touch any of your code, - You could be out of - Yeah. It could certification, you know, so, you know, if you say, I haven't touched code, um, it might be all right. I, I think it's a bigger issue long term. Uh, - Yeah, no, I - Would agree with that. People are making a lot of, uh, noise about it right now. Um, you know, oh, look, you here.

Uh, I don't necessarily know if I'm surprised. I don't ever remem I legally, I can't say, yeah. I can't say who was ever in any of the standards meetings. So, um, and usually those are well attended. There's usually 30, 40 people in those standards meetings that are in there. I've missed a couple here recently. So, Mm-Hmm.

, I have no insight to some of the stuff that's been said, uh, recent, just 'cause I had schedule complex, but the, You know, so we're gonna go through the gauntlet and run, run the recertification. I'm gonna look at it. I'll keep looking at it from year to year because there is a trade off, you know, today, matter of fact, it's, uh, press release is going out tomorrow. But we announced it in our newsletter today that, uh, blueberry did a, um, partnership with, uh, backbeat Media.

And, uh, backbeat Media is gonna be our new representative for host Red Advertising. Oh. So select Blueberry podcasters is, you know, Dave and his team over there are gonna be ing uh, blueberry inventory. I have another deal in progress as well. We're gonna try to get, as many of our podcasters have the ability to be involved in host Red Ads. It's not something that we specialize in anymore.

So from my perspective, um, and working with Dave and, and them generating revenue for our podcasters, I have to stay certified because if Dave is gonna rep the podcasters that [email protected], I have to be able to provide him, uh, and actually it's not me. The podcaster will create an account and let Dave's team come in to look at stats. Um, so we're, we're essentially, uh, you know, we have to keep our, our platform certified.

Mm-Hmm. . Um, because otherwise then in there we don't need no questions being asked on any data. So, you know, I'm, I'm confident where, where we're at, and we'll go through the gauntlet again and get, get re-certified. But I, I'm just wondering if the Spotify decision had anything to do and it, but they said they may come back next year, which was weird. So I, I don't know. But it means they dropped their membership this year.

They didn't pay their, their dues - And, but they did say in a statement that they, they would continue to support the IEB and their mission and all this kind of stuff, so - Yeah. But they're not writing a check, - But that's right. That's easy to say when you're not paying - Anything. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Um, so again, it's, you know, it's up to IEB to, to come up with their own statement and depend whatever is the issue here. But I think it plays badly for megaphone the worst.

Um, we move a lot of pot. Matter of fact, I had two meetings this week. Major, major, major big networks, um, 100 plus shows each that are basically going to move to blueberry. They're moving off megaphone. Um, - Well, Todd, I would imagine that the, that uh, fee that you mentioned about, uh, a percentage of gross revenue as the membership fee was probably a big, it was probably okay when they were doing it, when it was just advertising revenue. - But I bet you their bill was still massive.

- Well, yeah. But now that you've thrown into the mix gross revenue of the total company, that probably maybe close to doubled it or more. So that may be a little bit of a reason here. And it looks like, you know, even on the advertising side, Spotify's considered to be the largest global

digital audio advertising company. Um, - So second - Only, I mean, first, uh, and then second is the SiriusXM folks, and then iHeart, and then Cumulus, and then Odyssey, and then a ACAS kind of brings to the bottom. And it does look, look, look like that Lipson just re-certified under the IEB podcast measurement guidelines to V 2.1. - Okay. Which, - Which Spotify was already certified at 2.1. So, so that, that may be a little bit of an answer there too. - So maybe may, I might be wrong.

So it, the Ivy Board approved a new rate card for 2025. Information regarding that was sent out in 2023. All members will be required to report to 2023 digital revenue to calculate 2025 dues. The rate card for non-agency or all the members. So let me see if I can find that. Um, if they have this. Okay. IEB 2025, all other dues rate card, domestic revenue, zero to 7 million, $12,000. And if you're, if you are eight to 15, alright. - Yeah. If you're a non-member, it's more expensive.

- Well, this is for renewals, uh, annual domestic digital revenue measurement, estimated dues for 2025. So let me show this on the chart. Well, - What's what's also interesting, Todd, is that it does appear that the IAB has a certification non-member. - Oh, they do. Absolutely. Option. Yeah, - They do as well. Yeah. So this, this pulling back from even being a member of the IAB is, is really more significant than, than the, uh, the certification cost.

Yeah. Because the certification cost is what for non-members is about $17,000. - But I, but if you're a member, then the math all, it's less, all math works out and does it listed on the site? I don't know if it listed on there. - What's that? The - Cost, the membership renewal cost. - Oh no, I don't see that. Yeah, - I don't see, again, - I only see the certification cost. - I have to be careful. Uh, does it say IB member costs for certification or renewal? Correct.

- Correct. It's, if you're a member, it's 12,500 - For initial - For the first one. And then a renewal is only 62. - Yeah, 50. Okay. So if it's, if it's public land there, I can say, yeah, I knew what the number was. I just didn't wanna say it. 'cause I couldn't remember if that number was public. So, so, - Six. So, - So if you think about a $12,000 membership - For new, but they're not - New. No, no. Let's say you are a new member or your certification lapse, you have to get another initial.

So let's say you're at the base level of $12,000 a year for a membership, and the renewal fee is 62 50. So you're in for 18 five a year just to be part of the IB and to participate in the forums and to get certified. This is going forward. It's a 18 five ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Every year. 'cause the renewals going recertifications are gonna be required every year after this year. So you have going forth, every renewal you have to renew annually after this year, starting this year.

So next year I'll activate another 62 50 following year, another 62 50 following year, another 62 50 plus my membership fee. Are you there? You froze up. Oh, that's weird. Rob kind of froze on me here. We'll see if he comes back. Oh, you, you, you, you, you froze for a second, Rob. - Oh, I did. Yeah. - Yeah. So go ahead. - So I think the membership side is really what's significant here, - Potentially.

Um, yeah, so whatever, I don't know what they announced in their revenue, but if you're 1.3 billion to 2.49 billion your membership fee per year, 35 3, 2 0.5 billion plus 550,000. I don't know what they announced their, I didn't look at their, their earnings report. Their - Their numbers. - Yeah. Again, annual domestic revenue is for the, going forward in 2025. So a company like Libsyn is probably at the $20,000, 16 to 74 million.

They're probably paying 20,000 a year, um, in annual domestic revenue. Annual domestic digital revenue. So this is, you know, it's, it's weird how they, they followed it. Um, and there'll be an annual increase as well. So again, it's, it's a lot of money to be certified. And, you know, if - We Yeah. Especially for a company like Spotify. Yeah. I mean, with the kind of kind of revenues that they, they have, um, that's, that's a big check. They have to write every Yeah. Every year.

- So for us, if I'm not, I don't know where we're gonna fall if we're not doing, 'cause you know, we have two partners. Now, if I'm not doing any other ad sales, I might fall in, I don't know what I'm gonna fall into. But long story short, um, you know, it's, it's, it's a minimum 18 five to be a member and to be recertified or 18 2 50. Yeah. So if you're a non-member, you're only saving $1,250. Is that what the recertification is for? A non-member?

What's a non-member? Recertification, - Uh, 1750. - That's for non-member. 17,500. - Yep. - So see you, you, you either pay to be a member and participate and have a discussion, or you pay 1250 less and don't have a seat at the table to have. So they've made it nearly impossible for, um, anyone to, you know, it's dumb to not be a member, especially if you wanna see at the table. So we will see this year's might, it's, you know, it's gonna be a, it's gonna be a question.

- Yeah. I just think it's much bigger. It's not like, uh, Spotify can't afford it. Uh, - No, but, but it's a, it's, well, it's a big check. It's, - You know, no, it is a big check. And it's all about the gross revenues. If that's, that's - What's going on. And if they don't need it, and if they've got most of the data inside, I think the one again, I think who's gonna be hurt the most is megaphone and chartable, um, over - Time, but not, not right away.

Yeah. I would say that they're probably gonna get hurt probably after six months or so. Uh, we'll see once the standard or the certification goes up to what, uh, version 2.2 or 2.3 or wherever we're at. - Yeah. Well, again, it doesn't matter what version we're on, you have to be re-certified annually. - Yeah. Because it appears that Captivate in bus sprout. Uh, were last certified under B 2.0 back in 2020. Right. So - It's been two years for us.

But when we re-certified two years ago, it was largely based because we also added our redirect to get certified. So, - But it appears Captivate and bus route are both in the process of getting re-certified. - I can't speak to them. Does it say that in the, in the - Notes? No, it's in, it's in Pot News. Oh. Is - What - It's, - So it's, you know, and then again, again, is this, I, you know, and I, I look at it every year. You know, my team, we talk about it. Should we renew?

Should we continue? Is the value there? Um, you know, and the first go round on this was crazy expensive, you know, and we did the first initial survey. Oh yeah, I - Remember that. - It was insane. At 26,000 or something like that, that we spent, um, on the, but, and we went first and we were the Guinea pigs. And to be honest with you, we probably shouldn't have went first because we had the heaviest amount of scrutiny. They learned their processes from us, essentially. Mm-Hmm.

that's, and N-P-R-N-P-R and us went at the same time. But, um, so, you know, and the, the IEB, you know, we will see, and, and I hope the IEB be honest with you, um, my personal opinion, I think the IEB shouldn't tell those companies. You can't talk about any IEB compliance at whatever level. You're not a member. You haven't got re-certified. Uh, sorry. You can't use, you can't even say that. But I, I don't know if they'll do that.

- Well, there's been such a history of, I know people saying, well, I'm compliant with the IB Right. Metrics guidelines that Yeah. I don't know how they couldn't, or they could, they could legitimately say that our metrics was formally certified recently. So - Oh, they could probably say, yeah, they, we could probably say that. That they're, yeah. So, - Which may be, as I'm saying, good enough for now. - Yeah, exactly. . Yeah, they could say that for sure. Yeah.

- Yeah. You know, hopefully a year from now, a grass is, grass will be greener in the podcast advertising business, but it appears that Spotify's not suffering on that side. No, but I can't make that statement about other people in the podcasting space. So, - So, you know, and I, this, you know, what it really does and what the, let's, you know, we'll talk about the gorilla in the room. Mm-Hmm. , uh, you know, uh, there are certain people that do not like the IEB.

There are certain people that, uh, want all podcasts or stats to be open on OP three. Um Yep. And I understand that. But again, - They're usually smaller startup - Companies that just - Can't afford it. - And that too, and the majority of podcasts themselves still don't want their, their numbers to be public. Uh, sometimes they're embarrassed, sometimes they, whatever reason, um, yeah.

Don't want, and, and again, uh, we have a service available for all podcasters that they can get us, you know, basically, we'll, we will validate their numbers independently if they're doing a deal with someone, if, you know, someone needs to know ground truth.

Um, and that's part of their deal that we did with Black Beat Media is I said, listen, uh, I don't wanna ha you're gonna, the, the podcaster that works with you, um, part of the agreement is going to be is that they will allow you Backbeat Media AKA to log in into your stats - Mm-Hmm. - and set up a subaccount and Mm-Hmm. that way. I don't, I'm not getting called by Dave and his team say, Hey, can you look at, so-and-so's? And I said, well, Dave, I have to ask the podcaster.

So we're gonna make that agreement set forth that the podcaster just has to give them access. And if they don't, they won't get no ad deal. - Yeah. - Yeah. So, you know, I don't have time to babysit and audit, but - Yeah, so we saw the, the, the podcast folks do their AI event here over the last few days. So I don't know if you kept track of that - At all. I, I have not. Uh, was, was not invited to speak. And so, - Yeah, I, I didn't participate either.

- So I have no idea what, uh, what was produced or said or who sponsored it, if it, you know, again, didn't, I can't speak to it on the, on the level of what we did, but we've been watching our system and we're very happy so far with the results and feedback and working on our next version. Our next, well, not next version, but Jim says it's valuable for the industry to have a standard. Is I be perfect? I doubt it.

But what really is, and you know, and again, we go back to the politics, Rob, you were there in those, those battles we had in those early days. - Yeah. I was, I was unfortunately wor working for one of the ones that was creating some of the, the - Problems . Right. One of the one, and probably the, the initial standards was delayed at least a year because of, well, he's dead, so we can talk about Norm. Yeah. He's - Gone. - Right. You know. Right. - We don't have to worry about it now.

- So again, it can't be at least by him, maybe his estate. Right. But, um, yeah, there was definitely mass interference by the team over there at the company you were working at. - Yeah. And it was a big reason why I wound up leaving is because it, it just, you know, there was too much of a battle over metrics going on. Oh, man. And I didn't agree with the philosophy that that was being taken over there. So - Truth be told, if he'd had his way, he'd have acquired Blueberry to shut me up.

- Yeah. He kind of had that ideology, you're right. Is to acquire, to get rid of competitors. - Yeah. To, to get rid of loud voices that were standing in the way of him counting by six. - Oh yeah. It's a little old school, old - Old business school - Kind of activity. Yeah, yeah, - Yeah. Yeah. All I could say is there was a shredder involved . - So I got an email And you got an email too from James Cridlin. - Yeah. I didn't respond though. I've been so busy.

I didn't, I barely had time to read it. - Yeah. So, and I, I created a, a little bit of a dialogue with, with him, and it's on this, this brand safety, brand suitability question. I think he's, he's, he's challenging us to clarify a little bit on our position on this. And I also ha have said, you know, in Twitter, and I think in Facebook, I think, or LinkedIn, one of the two that I, I would invite on, um, the CEO of barometer on our show.

So to, to talk about brand safety and brand suitability, and at least get, get it from, you know, a person that's actively working in that area. Um, get their views and get their perspectives on how this all works. And, you know, is there damage being done to content creators is kind of my bigger question on all this. And, and are we heading down a path towards, you know, content moderation increasingly in the podcasting space, um, because of these kind of technologies, right?

Mm-Hmm. and James Post posted a question. So if, if you run advertising for, let's say Delta Airlines as an example, right? If you are buying podcast ads to promote Delta, uh, airlines, uh, would you want your ad to be aired in, in the middle of that news organization reporting on a plane crash? - Well, you don't have no choice in podcasting. 'cause all that's bought in advance.

- Well, that was my point to James too, was that the only way that that can be caught is either just before the episode is published, right? Yeah. If it's not live, if it's live, you're probably in a difficult position to hold it back if it's breaking news or something like that.

Right. Um, and so it needs to be done either post publish or just prior to publish that, the kind of filtering out of that, I guess James's point was that's been going on in the broadcast industry for a, I guess a long time - Well, that it's, it's bought different. - Yeah. Well, and it's usually live, right?

Which is like, okay, so you have, you know, that you have an ad for Delta Airlines coming up in your, your segment, um, your new segment that is basically talking about maybe a Delta Airlines airplane crash, maybe , I guess if they're really unlucky. Um, or could be a different airline too, right? Yeah. It could be a different one. Um, so we're kind of getting into this gray area of, of this intersection between editorial and sponsorship and advertising.

Right? Right. And, and I think what's happening with the, with the technology now is that now it's increasingly getting automated, right? And it's being AI driven to capture these things. And I'm not sure it's really clear, um, that necessarily Delta would have a negative reaction on the part of a podcast listener. Um, if that program that they were advertising in was talking about a plane crash. I, I don't know that that is a, a proven relationship.

Right. Especially when it's, it happens under a different airline. So - Anyway, well, again, it's a, - It's a tough question. - Well, it's not, it, it's nothing. They can, - It's tough on one hand, but Well, - It, it, the what, okay. Someone's buying inventory months in advance oftentimes. - Right? - So unless there's, it can be caught real time, unless the, unless the company comes down and says, pull all advertising, they don't know what we're gonna be talking about.

- Yeah. That, or before every episode is published into the R rss s feed, it runs through this engine. Yeah. Well, uh, this AI analysis, right? - Then we're doomed. Right. But if they've contracted to buy, they're going to pay me if they've contracted to buy my show, and it's not programmatic. This is host read ad indoors. Mm-Hmm. they're going to pay, if they remove the ad in some engine, they're gonna pay because they contracted that, regardless of what they say.

Uh, it, it's a different ball game in podcasting. - Well, and also, I mean, if you take back, um, to the early years of journalism, right? 'cause I think what we're really talking about here is, uh, um, the funding for news, um, news departments or news programs is being impacted by this stuff.

Right? Um, but if you go back to the early days, I mean, I'm talking about like back in the seventies and the sixties and stuff like that, there was usually a separation between editorial and advertising, right? Mm-Hmm. that kind of separated from each other generally. Um, maybe there was some crossover, like James said, with, um, you know, breaking news type of scenarios. But that was probably easily handled because it was usually alive.

Um, but, you know, in an on demand world, I don't know that that's as easy to manage here. And it's, you know, my comment back to James was this, this is this brand safety and suitability stuff is a slippery slope towards, you know, could be used for censorship and, and create an atmosphere of, uh, self-censorship. Create a creator self censorship.

So, lay out a scenario that if, if you are approaching your show and you know that you have an advertiser, um, that has a particular view on something, and there's a news story that is contrary to that, and you're a content creator, you could censor yourself, right? And say, well, I'm not gonna talk about that. 'cause I don't wanna lose that ad revenue. - Yeah. - That's the, that's, that's the danger here.

So I don't want to completely cover this topic, uh, before we bring on Tamara, but, um, - Oh, someone's joining us today. - No, no, no. Oh, - I'm not. Okay. Okay. Another day. No, - I'm not. Yeah, it'll be another day. Right? - All right. Alright. I was like, whoa. - So anyway, um, that's, that's probably enough to talk about it today. You know, I don't think we want to dive too, too, too, too deep into this, but, but if I bring on someone, we will peel back the layers of the onion on this one.

Right? 'cause there's a lot of layers. - Yeah. There's always lots of layers. Yeah. The key, the key is, uh, don't participate, - Right? Yeah. - Do - That. Well, I think increasingly the big players are all - In. And then, come on, come on over, come on over to blueberry. We're not gonna play that game. - Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. - Not the attribution game either.

- Yeah. So that's kind of, you know, really I think the big things that have been breaking here this past week, um, I did notice that there was a, like a brand, um, what's called a 2024 Benchmark report. Branded podcasts from single, from Signal Hill Insights out talking about, um, branded podcasts as kind of like the, the opportunity as you look into the future.

And I think part of why this is happening or why this perception is growing is that I think this is a potential response or a development that may be in the middle of somewhat replacing advertising. Um, this is a different form of customer, you know, connection and community building and communications that really more follows along kind of a, a content marketing strategy, not an advertising strategy. So, I dunno what your thoughts are on, on, on that.

- Well, I haven't read the article, so I really don't have No, yeah. - It says, well, it says 86% of branded podcasts that were tested have, uh, resulted in a lift in the affinity for that brand, responsible for the podcast. So it's not a, a blatant advertisement for the, um, the brand responsible for the content. Not unlike what the Trader Joe's podcast is. It doesn't, it's not like a advertisement, but it's more like a storytelling.

And that's kind of what the unfolding of this is, is that it's branded podcasts need to tell a story that helps their customers or helps their users in their experience in the journey with a particular area, um, that that particular sponsor has a passion for. So - Yeah, it makes sense. - Yeah. So that's what's going on with that. - I think anybody that's doing a, a business related podcast, um, probably knows about this.

I, i don't, again, a branded podcast, you know, do, would you, you know, we don't call it the Blueberry podcast. We call it the Podcast Insider Podcast, so, - Right. But it's brought to you by Blueberry, right? - Yeah. But we don't really, we don't really advertise it. But you, you can tell right away, it's hosted by blueberry employees. Mm-Hmm. , you know, which we announced at the beginning of the show, so there's no, - Yeah.

It also says in the study it says that there's a halo effect that happens with a company that has a branded podcast, per se. Under this definition. Uh, it says 61% of listeners on average say that the podcast made them feel more favorable towards the brand. 'cause it probably personalizes the brand a little bit more. Hmm. Creates a human connection to the brand. - Most companies, I kinda like - What you do with your Yeah.

You know, your blueberry thing - Also, but most companies are, most companies are faceless though. So maybe it adds - Yeah. It adds a, a, a human being. People like, people like people more than they like brands - You do business people you like too. Right? That's part of it. - And that's, that's somewhat the ideology or the mentality of me doing this live show that I do for Streamy Yard on their platform every week is is that it's, it's not a blatant ad for Spot or for, um, streamy Yard.

Mm-Hmm. . It's, it's really more of a content sharing kind of help idea helpfulness, right? And, and it's the same thing that you do with your podcast for Blueberry, is that it's a, it's a supportive show that helps bring along your customers or maybe your future customers and how they think about, you know, utilizing your services to create podcasts.

So, you know, I think it's helpful and I think it's a big part of where we are right now in the cycle, and I'm sure advertising is really as effective as it used to be in doing that. - Well, you know, there was a discussion on the last podcasting 2.0 show. Yeah. Uh, about, uh, are you listening to that show, by the way? You should. Yeah. I - Yeah. I occasionally listen to it. Yeah. - Well, it's, it's, it is the mandatory board meeting. So you you you've been missing out. - I have, huh. - Okay.

So there's, you know, one of, one of the things that, um, I was as a per for my personal show, I reached out to the team at Fountain. I said, I wanna be able to just like, uh, um, be able to set up a bucket that anytime someone listens to my show on Fountain, that they would get streaming SATs by the minute from me, uh, for listening. And they really didn't have that tech to do that, uh, by me providing a bucket just for my show.

And they said something about vouchers and in the end, but basically the, I just tell podcasters, Hey, just let me know what your fountain address is, if ever listening to the show and I'll, and send you some free sets. And so this had already been on my mind for a while, because what I'm really trying to do here is just change some behavior. I'm trying to, uh, teach podcasters what the value of these new podcast apps are and how it's going in the, the listeners.

It's gonna start with the listeners first. Um, so in the end, not, not trying to teach us the podcast, just trying to teach my listeners the value of this Mm-Hmm. . And, uh, you know, who doesn't like free money, right? Um, you know, even if it's five bucks, you still like, I don't know if you see $5 laying on the floor. I, I'm, I'm gonna swoop it up, right? That's, that's five bucks.

Uh, and um, so they came up with the, and I, I, you know, Adam's been doing some soul searching and coming up with some ideas. And imagine this, people are listening to this show right now on a new modern podcast [email protected], and we pay them, let's say, a hundred SATs a minute to listen. So in 90 minutes, you know, that's 9,000 SATs. I think that's my high school math going there.

And, uh, they can use that to share the wealth with the, you know, whoever they want, um, over the next, you know, week or whatever. They take those SATs and give 'em to somebody else, or keep 'em and cash 'em out. Well, part of the challenge has been, is still crypto astigmatism.

So if we can get the apps to the point where it just shows up as dollars, there's some sort of magic that can happen so that it shows that you got $23 balance and you can get that to your PayPal account or wherever you want and actually spend it versus having to go through the rigmarole of basically transferring your SATs to change your SATs to Bitcoin. And then Bitcoin, it's just a little too complicated.

If we can get this figured out where we can have the podcasting apps show stuff in dollars, then if I'm running a GoDaddy ad, I could say, Hey, um, I'll send a higher SAT level, I'll, I'll bribe listeners to stay to listen to the ad because I'm gonna pay them. Let's say I pay a thousand SATs a minute during the ad, or 5,000 sas or whatever it is, I pay the listener to listen to the ad.

Um, this is interesting from the same respect that now I would have the ability to actually show true engagement on an advertising spot, because I could see how many minutes were, how many minutes someone actually listened to the ad. So if the a's a minute I send a thousand SATs, boom, uh, they, I know that AD was listened to, I can guarantee it was listened to. Now they may shuffle, we'll have to put some stuff in to make sure they can't cheat.

But if someone's listening along and hits the advance button, boom, boom, and skips the ad, well, they're not gonna make any SATs and there won't get any of that money in their wallet. So what they've really kind of proposing are having this idea of called SAT backs. And I think that from, uh, and this goes beyond what I originally had talked about in being able to send my listeners some SATs for just using a new app. Number one. mm-Hmm, . Mm-Hmm, .

But number two, I could say, okay, during this segment that I'm running GoDaddy, I'm gonna send you 5,000 SATs for listening to the ad. Mm-Hmm. . And I think most people will listen to it.

Now, it doesn't mean they're going to engage in it, but I can go back to Godad and say, Hey, I can guarantee that X number of people heard your ad on this episode, instead of having this story about, oh, you know, we had a thousand downloads and, you know, we come up with our formula and how we do an estimating show up size and how we bill. And, you know, it could be an interesting experiment.

But again, um, this is all about really at this point trying to make sure that, and coming up of the way without having to, uh, say we're spying on people by, you know, sending data back that says, Hey, and we, we watched your, you know, your progression through and re we reported this IP as having listened to the ad. Um, it's just that, you know, there's some new mindsets here we could consider in, in this marketing thing. Now, here's the problem.

You're not gonna get Apple and Spotify and all these, well, Spotify already has the data. Uh, Spotify's got all the data and the remarketing, I've - Also learned, learned something else from Galdum who's the CEO of, uh, a podcast hosting platform out of the huge country of India, uh, which is the, the largest country in the world. He told me, uh, last week, I, I, I believe that SATs and Bitcoin is outlawed in India. - Really? You - Can't even transact any of those currencies.

- So no, no crypto in India at all. - There's no pathway to convert it to Oh, a a, um, - To a, to a fiat fund. - To a fiat currency, right? Correct. There's no pathway for that. And if you attempt it, it's, it's, - It's a, it's illegal. It's - A criminal act. - Wow. That's interesting. Can you still get SATs or you just can't try to cash them out? - I, I, I think at the end of the day, it, you might be able to do it if you use maybe a VPN or something like that, potentially.

Yeah. Uh, but I'm not sure about all that. And I do kind wonder also in the other huge country of China, if there's any viability to Satoshi and cryptocurrency in the two largest countries in the world. So, - Hmm. - I think you're talking about 2 billion people there, so, or more two and a half billion, something like that. - Yeah. Very, very strange. Well, yeah, again, crypto astigmatism, so you're gonna run into that. Yeah. And it's, it's really a governmental thing at that point.

- And I do wonder if there's a risk that that could happen in western - Countries, too. Nah, not in the, they can't control it. What they're gonna control what they're gonna control, there's other things to the - Ability to convert it to bi currency is - . Yeah. You know, you, you're gonna have to put Coinbase and companies like that out of business. So - Yeah. And I'm an investor in, in, um, Coinbase, so I would love to have that work out. . Well, - It is working out.

So, but in the end, - Stay, stay working out is - What I'm saying. Yeah. But in the end, I think what we really at some point have to consider on some of this is, you know, how do we make it easier for, for podcasters to participate? And, um, yeah. I think that's a, a big part of it here. Yeah. - I mean, it's, it's a viable thing here in the, you know, in the west of sorts. Right? In all, all the other countries Mm-Hmm.

that I'm aware of. Unless there's other maybe smaller countries that have banned this capability too, of converting to Fiat. Um, so I don't know. Time will tell on this. - So, let's see here. I'm looking at some SATs that have come in, I don't know if I read this on the last show, 1,701 SATs from Brian. I, oh, that he sent this after the last live show.

He says, I don't think the market, and this is another topic that we talked about last week, I don't think the market is telling creators they have to do video. Yes, there's some growth in video content, but the narrative that you should do video seems to be driven by the marketing of YouTube and others with a vested interest in video first content and centers around low value programmatic advertising rather than long term creator value. I have, I would have a tendency to agree with that, Brian.

Thank you. Uh, - Well, I think it's conflating two things that aren't necessarily related to each - Other. Well, most advertising on, uh, YouTube, but you're not paying for premium. YouTube is low grade programmatic advertising. - Sure, sure. - Um, - I'm sure that's true. Yeah. - A thousand stats are met. Bat signal didn't work. Time zone is still messed up. Yeah.

I'm trying to figure out, we're good on time zone on my site and everything, so apparently the, the we're a live signal is not going out. So, uh, Papa hd we'll find out what's going on here. I've got people investigating as we speak. I've asked for a investigation to be done. Let me look here. Uh oh. Yep. So, Hmm. Looked fine on me. System picked up on all the checks. Okay. So for the record, the pod ping we sent out was correct.

It is, uh, a few apps, pod verse and others that did not pick up the pod ping for those of you are thinking, what am I talking about? Those that are on a new podcasting app will understand. So there's still reasons, there's still ways to improve. - Oh yeah. I'm sure that's true. Yeah. I see this quote in, in the headlines of rain news.com about this whole Spotify thing.

To kind of jump back to Spotify a little bit, his, their take, and this is the, the news people at Rain News are, are seeing this change with Spotify is a signal of extraordinary self-sufficiency. I hadn't seen that perspective on it. Um, I don't know if that's, - Say that again. - It feels a little hyperbolic. Maybe a little bit. It it this shift that Spotify made about getting outta the IEB and not getting certified. Oh. From, from their perspective.

And this is Brad Hill over at, uh, rain News - Says, oh yeah, I read base piece. - It's a signal of extraordinary self-sufficiency on the part of Spotify. - Well, the reason is, is self-sufficiency is they again, they they are, they - Have great metrics themselves. - They're spying on people. Yes. They know why. 'cause - It's a, it's proprietary login platform. - No, it's, it's an app. They've got client size data. They know when you put push play, they know when you hit stop.

They know when you passed 30 seconds. Well, - That's the same thing. The - Same they've known when you take your app to the bathroom to listen, they know all this. - Right. And when you sign up for an account with them, yeah. You share - Information with them as well. They know, they know when your phone is laying down in your pocket when you're walking, if you're moving, if you are looking at the screen, they know all this metric data. Come on. Yeah.

- Yeah. This is the how long you listen or you drop off. - This is, this is the privacy. And again, this is, you know, I talked to a content creator the other day, right? And they're like, oh, he loves Spotify. He said, so you love your listeners being spied on. And he, - It's the same thing that's happening at, uh, apple and the same thing that's happening. - But Apple, but Apple - YouTube too. - Do you think app, do you think Apple is reusing that to retarget, to remarket to people?

- Well, it's not a advertising model. So - Do you think Spotify is? - Yes, though, I would say maybe the advertising side is maybe not as big as their subscription growth. So I don't know. Mm. I think people are trying to skip advertising now, granted maybe with the economy people are unsubscribing and, and putting up with ads . - Well, - So, - You know, it's just like people that still use charitable, I'm like, that data's going straight to Spotify.

Right. And whatever that, whatever they had before that other company, they changed to, I don't know what was it, pod sites or whatever the company was that they renamed the company. So, you know, all, again, all this data, - Right? - Megaphone and everything, everything is hosted on Megaphone. All that information of all those listeners. - Mm-Hmm. - . And people don't think, I, I guess podcasters don't care about listener privacy anymore. I guess they just say, ah, forget it.

- Todd. Have you noticed that increased interest in companies and individuals creating in-person studios? Again, - I talked to a individual, I won't say which state 'cause it'll give it away. That said they had launched a new studio in their business and, um, yeah, I've been hearing it available for, they have it available for rent. I didn't ask them how many people were using it.

- Yeah. And I think it's, it's a little bit of a driven based on, and I've had people come at this to me that, uh, if you look at some of the most popular kind of video shows, um, that are out there that are considered to be, you know, by many to be podcasts, they are tending to gravitate more towards in-person face-to-face conversations. Right. That's, that's on Mike like us. But it's more like work together in one place versus Well,

- That's very, very hard and very, very expensive. Unless - You're, well, you see these big creators, um, you know, like the diary of a CEO is a good example of it. He, he does his show in London, right. Um, so people come to him or Tucker Carlson is up in Maine and has people fly up to his studio. - That's that, that is such a huge, and that is just such a, I bet you there's maybe a handful of shows that are doing that. Who has a budget for that?

- Well, if you have a big enough room, it's just a matter of setting, - But you setting, you're gonna fly someone in. - Well, I think you, most of these shows are doing them in places that are like major hubs. - Well, I wouldn't fly to London. I wouldn't, the show would have to be massive for me to fly to London to spend an hour on some podcasts. They'd have to be reaching millions and millions of people for me to consider that.

- Right. - A talk a Tucker's big enough, he can draw somebody like that and have 'em come to them. That's like Joe Rogan. He has big enough draw. People will fly to see Joe. But that is a massive show. - Oh, it is. Clearly. Um, but people are seeing this, right. And they're thinking that that's the path to success. - Oh, good luck. - And you know, if you look at the impact theory, it's another one, it's a show based out of Los Angeles, um, and it's got a built out studio.

It's got, you know, and then the big conversation, uh, at the NAB, and I think we talked about this a little bit, is, you know, Mr. Beast and how he's shifting what he's doing. I don't know if what he's shifting to will lend itself towards audio,

but it could, who knows? So, but - Again, I think - Creators are seeing these things, Todd, and they're thinking, you know, if this guy has a million subscribers to his channel, it's, it's an idea that I need to, - But they have to look at what he did before he had a million subscribers. He needs to go 800 episodes down and look at what he was doing when he had

20,000 people. Yeah. - And I saw even, even Tom Ballou with the Impact Theory, he was doing virtual interviews, um, in the, you know, just a couple years ago. So, but now just about everything he's doing now is in studio. I think he's grown to a size where people will come to him. And I think that's, that's increasingly, and then we're seeing more. I mean, I, I'm getting people reaching out to me too, and I'm seeing it more publicized that people are building in person studios.

So if you don't have the ability to build out your own studio in your own house or something like that, um, that you can go into one of these places and batch produce, you know, a bunch of shows and, you know, who knows. - Yeah. I just, um, I can't imagine trying to ask someone to come here. - You know, probably not there. , - You know, though - Though, you do have a studio there

that would be capable of doing it. Oh, - I've got a beautiful studio here and I've got another room that would handle, you know, easily - Just get a couple of chairs. - Yeah. We've done stuff in that other studio that's published on other, you know, something we've done for the Office and Right. I got a green screen on this side. So there's plenty of - Yeah. - I'm wired up to do really anything here, but, you know, again, uh, I don't have a million people follow me anywhere, so.

Right. I, I, I, and again, if col, if Tucker Carlson, Chris, I'm not, wouldn't be ever be on his show because I'm not, don't cover stuff he talks about. But if someone, if that dude in London, uh, and it was a big enough exposure, sure. I'm sure that, I'm sure the company would sign off on flying me there to do an interview and fly back. So - I think increasingly, those, those type of shows are very, are extremely picky about who they have. Oh, I'm sure.

- I'm sure. They get to pick the, the, they get to pick the cream of the crop. - And it's, it's because they are very much shifting towards, and this is what Mr. Beast was talking about too. They're shifting towards more authentic, value driven, value laden conversations. Right. Is what they're trying to do.

And, and I do see those being produced in increasingly, and it does make you wonder, I know Todd, if you saw the announcement that happened on, on X and Twitter, is that they're on the cusp of launching a, um, smart TV app for, for x. - I wouldn't be surprised. Why not?

- So, and they showed actually a screenshot of it, um, on XI guess the CEO of Twitter X. Um, - Because they know, as YouTube indicated at the podcast movement evolutions that a, they've been shocked by the number of people that are sitting in their couch and flipping on YouTube and uh, watching content on YouTube, on their television. Right. It makes sense. Is the amount of, uh, beep that is available on, uh, broadcast networks, the amount of absolute kaka.

- Right. And then, then you kinda layer in, you know, a platform like a Rumble, which takes the other alternative economy or, um, content. Right. That's - We're focused on. It's gonna be people that are gonna think about x It's people that are gonna be watching the same content that they're, you know, price TikTok doesn't have. Of course, TikTok now is under the gun as the US government seems to need think, seems to want to, uh, - Shut them - Down. No, they're not trying to shut them down.

They are trying to tell Americans what, uh, you know, the, the nanny state? The nanny state? No, - They, they actually passed the bill to Oh, - I know they did. That's why the US government is, - It's going to actually the US actually. - Yeah. The US government is saying what you can and can't watch. - Right. And I do believe that there's some wording in that bill that leaves it open for interpretation, uh, and gives the government power to shut down platforms.

- Yeah. - Or, or force the sale of those platforms to someone else, especially if they're have foreign ownership. - Again, I don't need a nanny state. I don't need the government telling me Yeah. What I should, but - That increasingly what's - Happening. Well then, you know, people need to wake up and they need, you know, this was, uh, this was passed with, uh, uh, yeah, lar like only 20 people voted against it. So, - Well, it was a funding bill for, for our Wars, is what it really was.

- Again, 20 people voted against it and allowed it to be there in the first place. So, you know, call your congress person, get involved. You know, freedom of speech is precious and they try to keep TikTok - Is, was like a earmark on their, their freedom, - Their funding bill. Freedom of speech is very, very precious and we have to defend it. And if you allow the government to take away your freedom of speech, they'll come after podcasting next. - I think they're already on that path.

- Well, these brand safety people are, and that's why I'm so against brand safety stuff. - Yeah. - And you know, it, it's, it's truly remarkable. Um, it's a very precious thing. Just imagine, you know, just imagine a day when you say something about a certain topic and you get a knock on the door and they're, you're arrested for what you have to say and take off and lock - Up. Well, it's already starting to happen down in Australia.

I don't know if you've seen the news out of Australia lately, but they passed a, a, a law that they're trying to take down content globally. - Well, then Australians need to stand up and fight back. Yeah. People are just, they're sheep and they got a lot of sheep down in Australia. Actually. I think it's New Zealand. Um, you know, but Well, it's Australia - Too. - Okay. You know, they, it's rolling over - As far as the sheep goes, as far as the sheep goes.

You know, - You know, sheep are, are easy to herd. You can easily lead sheep to slaughter, you know, and we don't wanna be sheep. - You wanna be a bull, right Todd? - You just don't wanna, you just need to stand up and, and say your peace. I guarantee you a 20 million people call the house representatives, call the Senate and complain this, this, this monkey business would stop. - But do they care about what we think, Todd? - You have enough people.

The key is you have to stand up and fight for your right. And if you don't fight for your right to get what you deserve, we're, we're at a point now where, you know, you, you gotta fight for your rights. - Yeah. - And it doesn't mean fight physically, it means speak your peace. - Right. - Protest. - It's more of a . Just, just make sure that your, your morals and ethics and your views and your support of the constitution is expressed .

- If, if you, and again, if you don't think so, if you think TikTok should be banned, then you'll get what you deserve when they start coming after other platform. But, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, I I'm just a big pri of speech guy. I don't like the government telling me what I can and can't listen to or what I can and can't do when it comes to media. - And I did hear that this bill, this TikTok bill included a clause in there talking about websites too. - I am not surprised.

- And, and well, it's websites and apps. - The US government knows best. Right. And what we should do as, as citizens in the content we consume. This is why open RSS, I'm gonna gonna go back to this again and again. Open RSS is the last bastion of free speech. - Yeah. And it's been confirmed here recently. Right. Todd, there, I think Spotify conceded a a very important point. - And also there's studies out saying that podcasters are most trusted.

Yeah. Our, our voices are most trusted of any media. Yeah. So, - And exactly why is that, Todd? - Hello? - Because people can trust what's being said more. - Uh, well, I think it's because largely is people can smell a fraud a mile away. They can smell bs.

You can't do an episode after an episode after an episode and maintain a charade if you, you might fool some people some of the time, but you won't fool all the people all the time because you, you, if you're speaking on a topic on a subject, people are gonna very quickly figure out whether you're an expert or you're not. They're gonna find out if you're, I was in a meeting, I don't know if I've ever told this before, and maybe I did on a recent show. I was in a meeting when I was in the Navy.

There was like 50 people there. And we're in a room, we're in a secure room. Mm-Hmm. . And all the cell phones are outside and, you know, there's questions being talked on high levels, a high level classification test. And my boss was there, and this guy was brilliant. He was a smart, smart dude. And he asked somebody a question that he knew the answer for already. And the individual that was asked the question started to do a little, uh, how should we say it?

Not given the exact correct answer, trying to blow a little smoke up this guy's ass. It didn't end well. Because someone will always know where the ground truth of something is. Mm-Hmm. . So you best do your best ability as a podcaster to always tell the truth. Always share everything that you can in a straight manner. Because it won't be long before you're not the smartest person in the room. And someone else will say that's wrong.

- Right. - And when they do, so, I think that's why podcasters are trusted. We we're in front of people. You and I joke, you and I battle, we have a good time. You know, I, I play devil's advocate a lot. I learned that from my, from my grandfather who's long, long dead. You know, I would watch him and he was, uh, you know, I was watching him as a teenager and he was a hardcore staunch Republican.

And someone would roll into the driveway and they'd also be a hardcore staunch Republican, but he'd turn into a Democrat just for the conversation. Mm-Hmm. . And they would, you know, they got, would get lively and you could always, I could always see the little smirk on his face. Right. Because he liked stirring the pot. Well, that's okay. And we do that a little bit here. I stir the pot a little bit with you.

But in the end, I think people that listen to us long enough will, I hope take about 90% of what we say or 95 Right. And say, okay. You know, or take one nugget for something. Mm-Hmm. , you know, I don't purposely ever try to deceive anybody on this show. I give my opinion the way it is based upon what I see on the ground. And that just leads into, that's what I think most podcasters do. You know, I, I think they're preparers of good information now.

There's gonna be, you know, you're gonna have some shows that are kind like, okay, cuckoo or whatever. Mm-Hmm. , um, is, is ultimately entertainment a little bit. Right. But at the same time, I don't like being serious all the time. It gets, it gets boring. Ah, . You know, it's, I like to have a little fun here too. So, ah, I just, I really, when I see, and again, I've probably in the back of my head probably, here's the thing. If I was in a different job, right.

If I was, uh, if I was doing, uh, defense work, or if I was in politics, or if I was involved in running a campaign or some of this other stuff, I, I would probably be worried what was being looked at and subjected me to via social media platforms. But they all have had their own issues. Yeah. And here's what I really think is happening with TikTok. This is Todd's conspiracy theory. TikTok is kicking the living, they're butt kicking everybody.

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram for guess what? They're kicking their butt in dollars. Ad dollars. Yeah. Yeah. They're kicking, they're kicking their butts everywhere. So guess what Facebook says, oh, they're dangerous. This, well, hypothetically, I'm thinking Facebook said they're dangerous. Which, oh, they're dangerous. Instagram. Well, they're dangerous. YouTube. Oh my God. They're dangerous. We need to, we need, we need to, we need to banish this app.

'cause they're taking billions of dollars out of our pocket. So you don't think, this is not money driven. - Oh, you always follow the money. - Don't you always follow the money? Yeah. - Right. That's always, always behind most everything that's - Going on. If I, if I was making billions in dollars in advertising and I was competing against TikTok, but I would definitely be paying lobbyists to try to suppress them, but I'm not that person, you know, - . Yeah.

- Actually probably not. I wouldn't live with myself. You gotta, you compete on, on uh, on features, you know? - Right. - What do, what do I do? What do I do day in, day out? We, we add stuff to try to make sure we're, we're competitive. - So you got more AI stuff in the pipeline. Todd, no - Comment. - No, because I , - You know, - Are you excited to go to Asia for, for podcast? - Yeah, I am. I am interested to.

I have a couple agendas while I'm there, and number one is basically to, you know, share the gospel obviously. And then number two is another reason I won't get into, but yes, I'm excited to, to, to go over there and, and talk with it because I, you know, here's what it is. Went to Saudi, came back to some new perspectives.

So every time you go visit a new international market, if you don't listen to what people are saying and look at what's happening in the eco, I can almost guarantee you that Spotify is basically pretty much owns the entire Philippine ecospace. I just, I i I just know it, um, based upon what I learned in Saudi. So the goal is to go there and, and provide different perspectives. Mm-Hmm. , you know, maybe make people think a little bit, oh, do I really want to put all my cards in one place?

Right. And so you can believe there's gonna be a few slides on, on that. I don't have a lot of time to talk, so I have to get a lot in, in a hurry. And, um, as a matter of fact, I'm working three days this week on my presentation. 'cause it again, I gotta, Uh, fast and furious. - Yeah. You're gonna be going there and then you're going to, um, - I - Get home podcast show too, - Right? Yeah. I get, I get home and I'm literally home like five days before I leave for, for, for the uk.

So I'm spending, what I'm trying to do is I'm gonna spend my work week , I'm gonna get in there like Sunday, and then I'm gonna work in the evening some nights, and then I fly back on Saturday. So it's, it's like I'm trying to also work while I am, even though I'm only going for a one day event. - Yeah. Well, let me know, um, what, what days are coming up for this show that we're gonna be able to do, - Uh, this show we will be able to do.

If we can move it up a little bit, it might be good because I, as soon as the show's over and I'm done producing next week, uh, let me look at the actual calendar here. Um, if we could go earlier on the show on Wednesday, that would be great. I gotta drive to Chicago after I finish the show on, on Wednesday. So if you're able to go earlier, that would be cool. Yeah. Um, and then I, I fly out Thursday night, so - Yeah. I should be able to go - Earlier and lo then I lose a day.

You know, I basically, you get it on the way back, but you lose it on the way out. Mm-Hmm. actually two days the way my flights are set up. So fly San Francisco about midnight on Thursday, and then I arrive in Manila Saturday morning. - Got - It. After a 15 hour. Woo hoo. - Yeah. That's a lot. - Yeah. That's a butt kicker of a flight. But yeah, take two, two beers and a sleeping pill. - So it'll be interesting to see what the attendance is and how strong the podcast show is.

- Yeah. Coming up. Well, the, oh, I'm, we're down in the lower section at the podcast show. We're not up on the now - On the kind of main floor. - Yeah. Yeah. And we've got a four meter, no. Yeah, four meter by three meter booth. - Okay. Is that, - Uh, like a 12 by four meter? Uh, it's like a 12 by nine or something like that. I don't, I don't, it's, it's, you know, it's Yeah. - Yeah. It's a, it's, - Yeah. - It's a rectangular Yeah. - Squareish. And we're having, we got the design done today.

They're gonna send that off to 'em and they're gonna, I'm not, I'm just taking paper. Um, - Okay, so you're not shipping really anything over there? - No, no, no, they're not. Yeah, it's cheaper. 12, 12 or $1,300 to have 'em do the, the facing Mm-Hmm. . And then, uh, and then I'll just, uh, roll a, I take a small bag and put all the paperwork in and, um, Manila, same thing. I'm taking a table drape and paperwork. So. - So anything else that you've noticed in the space in the last week?

- Oh, a lot of networks. I'm talking, that seems to be where my, what is ringing my phone off? - It's the networks - Network. The networks. Yep. - Or do networks appear to be growing and - Networks are doing fine, they're growing - The shows, try and find partners. Is that kind of - What's working at? Uh, they, they are, they are like anyone else. Everyone's being cost conscious right now. And, um, and also I'm getting people, uh, moving to us because they don't trust the data they're getting.

And it doesn't bode well for a specific company. - Ones that have not been - No comment, uh, - Connected to the IB - System. No comment. - No comment. Okay. - And it's a variety and it, but that's the theme of the call. Why I am getting the call is when someone says, I can't make sense of this data that I'm being given, I don't understand, I feel I'm being underpaid. - Are they comparing it to something externally?

- Um, they don't understand. Okay. Let's say you delivered a million downloads, - Right? - And, um, you said you had a 90% fill rate between host red and programmatic, but you're only getting paid for 70% of that. - Okay. - There's holes, holes in the data, and you get the spreadsheets and you say, what is this? And a response from whoever that handler is can't answer the question. - Okay. So they're working with a, probably a redirect platform that's giving 'em different data.

- So they just don't under, they can't get a handle. And they basically feel that, that they can't trust who they're with - Or they may be getting shorted on their . - They didn't accuse that. They just don't understand the data. They didn't say the word short at all. They just said, we can't understand what we're seeing. - Right. - And I walk 'em through our stats. I show 'em the platform, show 'em to get some, give 'em a sample spreadsheet and they say, we understand this.

Show how the DAI reports come out. We understand this. Oh, okay. Yep. Makes sense. - Are you doing any kind of re-analysis of log files like you - Used to? Not on third parties. We haven't done that in a long time. I'm tired of wearing bulletproof vests. - . Yeah, that makes sense. But maybe, - But maybe that, that could start to be a new business again, - . Well, I would say probably with this change that we're seeing. 'cause you know, what's the domino effect on - Spotify media?

On Spotify Media. Media. Buyers start calling me and said, we need to have our own, we can, can we have a white label stats system? That's what happens. - I mean, yeah. I mean, what's, what's, what's the potential domino effect of Spotify taking this position that could domino into other platforms doing the same? - Again, they've got great data on Spotify. - I know. - So that's true. - And there's not a lot of other platforms that are similar to - Theirs.

No, no. So, you know, they, you know, they've got the best data that anyone could have. You know, let's be frank. It's, it's, that's, that's the sweet, they got the honey spot. - I guess. Doesn't, uh, SiriusXM kind of, kind of have a similar scenario? - I don't know. Can they see what you're watching on your car? Uh, who - Watch it on their, their platform? I would - Imagine. Imagine. Can they see what channel I'm on? Can they see if I'm listening to Stern or whoever?

- I would think so. If you're listening in their platform, - I don't know. I don't know if their receiver reports back. I'm sure if you're on the web, you can, I'm sure with Amazon too, you're getting a, they're getting, you know, anyone that's got any content that's being consumed on a system where you've had to log in - Right. On a proprietary Yeah. Distribution - Platform. You've had to log in there.

- Probably similar, even even over at like Audible or Amazon or any of those platforms - Too, I'm sure. Yeah. Right. So, but again, when you have Amazon, that's less than 1%, you know, they don't have, have a lot of data. - And I guess, uh, Google Podcasts is still available outside of the us right? - Yeah. So - I think it's a, - They they took a pretty big beating. And then a couple of articles too recently.

A lot of people are upset about Google Podcasts. But - Let's, - Well it's, - Let's, it's really weird because it's like, usually it's the other way around. So - Let's have a, - Outside the US is, is usually not supported, but now the US isn't supported. It's almost like, you know, a reverse scenario. - If you're still here, if you're still listening, let us remind you that you have to be able to look beyond the fog of the shiny lure.

- Right. - And you have to understand whether or not you can trust a third party to have your content on their site. Business models change all the time, twice. Now Google has affected me in a way that really pissed me off. Mm-Hmm. number one, I was using this great product called Google Reader years ago. That's fabulous. Got all my news subscribed to everything.

I could consume everything I, I could get, like I'd spend 20 minutes out in the morning, 20 minutes the evening, and I had a full, I could see everything. I didn't have to go to any other website. They killed Google Reader. And, um, they did it because they didn't and wouldn't or couldn't monetize that. - Right. - Google podcast was introduced and they couldn't monetize it. So they killed Google Podcasts because they couldn't monetize Google Podcasts.

And they're making people move into YouTube and this, you know, YouTube music thing, which is su surfacing video first because they can monetize around that and pay the creator nothing. The majority of creator, - The, the, the national public radio is not available on YouTube. Music. Smart. - You know, so you have to think about, it's okay to be over there. I'm over here, but where do I promote my podcast being listened on?

- So is this show over there as an audio program that converted to a video over on, - On YouTube music? They take the, they take the YouTube version of the show and put it on Google - Music. Okay. It's not, it's not pulling off of the No. Of the audio RL speed. - No, no. - Okay, okay. Okay. You didn't submit. Yeah, I haven't submitted any of my other shows. I - Know them to do that.

So in, in the end, I know the risk of being on YouTube, but I tell my audience, go get yourself a new, new modern podcast [email protected] or listen on Apple Podcasts, or Overcast or wherever you wanna listen - Or Pocket casts is, - But again, - A good one too. Or Overcast - I don't trust. And we see all the, all the Rob, how many times you've been on YouTube and they see the sob story from one of the channels. You're follow. That's been demonetized.

And when those guys get demonetized, it is devastating to them. They go from riches to rags in an Oh yeah. In an instant. So why would I want to put my basket all over in one place where it, they're in control, contact creators have to wake up. It's okay to be over there. I'm not saying it's not, but where do you promote your audience to listen to you is key. - Yeah. Todd, I, I saw that the YouTube stream, um, from your platform stopped at 17 minutes on, on my side.

- It's still going over here. - Yeah, it's, it's finished the stream, it says in the interface - And, uh, for your channel. - Yeah. On yeah, on my channel. - Oh, that's weird. I'm still running on my channel. We're still live. - Yeah. Well that's good. That's good. It's just that I just have, uh, it'll be a short episode up on my channel, , uh, - You can, you can download the video and re-upload it, right.

Thousand SATs from Mike. He says, Google's tried podcasting many times, reader, listen, then Google Play, then Google Podcast, and now YouTube. So yeah, we've been through multiple iterations. - Yeah. - So that's true. You know, I I people are saying, oh, you're crazy. But they, people don't have 20 years of historical information that see how they operate. They - Don't Yeah. I spent a lot of time with the Google podcast team. Both the Rob Walsh

and I, uh, spent many, many meetings with them. They - Don't. So, you know, and they were, yeah. Oh, that sounds great. Da da da da da. Mm-Hmm. . But again, do they care about podcasters? No. - It's the same thing that happened with Facebook too. - They, they want, just like Spotify, they want you over there to monetize against you. You're paying for Spotify, most people are. Right. And you're being advertised against in Spotify.

That's like watching TV - Right - Now, if I'm advertising, I'm advertising because guess what? I, that's, that's my business. It's in my show. I'm presenting that to you. I get the percentage of that back, the mid nine. Well, for Godad I get a hundred percent of it. I don't have a deal with nobody. But if you're working with an ad agency, 70 30 gets 70% back, you're not getting that with YouTube. - Right. - And again, I, I think it just, people have to be care.

I'm again, go ahead and be over there. I'm over there. But you have to be careful about - What's your expectations there - Being in the hype. - Right. - Why do we have book authors? Why do we have musicians? Why do we have, um, people that are making movie shorts, movie documentaries are pissed with the system because they do this work and they basically get 2 cents on the dollar.

Why, why does, uh, Snoop Dogg get, you know, a billion or whatever the number was, listens on Spotify and gets a check for like 50 grand? Come on. - Yeah. - They, if they, if if they're only giving Snoop Dogg $50,000, please. So you have to have your own, you gotta take control of your own destiny and build your brand as you see fit. - Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's all you can do. But it's a, it's a complex landscape now Yeah. Of navigating all - That stuff.

And, and, but again, I don't care where people listen or watch long as they listen or watch Mm-Hmm. . And we will deal with the fallout when something happens. But I'm not gonna get in bed with the devil and whoever that may be. And I'm not that, that's a wide spread of . - There's a lot of, - Of, a lot of, a lot of entities. - a lot of potential players on that, uh, front , - You know, and again, I say that jokingly, you know?

Yeah. But you know, I think the average creator is just like, okay, awesome. I I told a company the other day where there was getting a product demo to me and they, and they were like, oh yeah, Spotify's knocking all the ballpark. And I'm like, well, you guys love selling your audiences out. And I get this look like, and during the Zoom meeting, I'm getting this look like, what do you mean? Well, they know everything about your audience. They can remarket to them.

You're not, you don't get to remarket to them. - Yeah. - You get to market to them , but not re you're not remarketing. - Yeah. - And people, and maybe it's because of our, maybe why blueberry's numbers on Spotify are so low is maybe it's because people that use us maybe, maybe they think like Todd a little bit. I don't know. They - Don't they don't fully appreciate the opportunity of Spotify. I guess . - Oh. Fully appreciate the opportunity. Okay. Right, right.

I'm like, how you twisted that to be positive - ? Well, it depends on your, your particular viewpoint. Right. Right. It can be positive or it can be negative. - I'm a creator first, you know? Right. Yeah. I got it. We have to make money and make payroll . - So Todd, as you look out in to, 'cause we're at the bottom of the hour already. Yeah. - We're almost, oh yeah, we are. Yeah. - So I'm actually gonna be out of town on the 22nd myself. Uh, I'm flying up to Seattle. Okay.

Actually I'm going to Phoenix first and then up to Seattle. But I won't, I don't think I'm gonna be back in time for being able to do a show either on the 29th. So, - Yeah, so, okay. 29th is out for me anyway. I'm, it is. Okay. Yeah. 29th. 'cause I go on travel again. So, um, if, can you do a show? Oh, I'll be in London the 22nd. So really, uh, the opportunity - Here. Think we're both dead in the water on, on the 22nd and the 29th. - Yeah. So I'm available on the first, which is next week.

Um, I am available on the eighth. Uh, if we can actually, oh, the first, if we can go early, that would be great. The eighth On the first? Yeah. On the first, the eighth. Uh, not available on the eighth. - Oh, okay. Uh, - We'll see. Um, because I'll be in the Philippines. That's the day of the event. So if we wanna do, I could - Do it through, I could do it through Streamy yard if we want to. Yeah, - I'll have to look at my pack out.

Think of what I'm taking. 'cause I'm not taking the road caster on this trip, so maybe if I have a, just a handheld, we can still do it, but it would have to probably be Yeah, - Yeah. Like a - Mic and webcam early on the ninth, which would be like 7:00 PM your time or something like that. - On, on the ninth or the eighth? - Well, it'd be eighth for you. Eighth in the evening. - Oh, eighth in the evening. - Okay. Ninth in the morning for me. 'cause I'm gonna be 12 hours ahead of you.

Um, so yeah, we can figure something out and we can talk about this, the event. So yeah, we can do the morning of the, of the ninth, but I need to go early because the flights and everything. And - Then you should be back in town by the 15th. - Yeah, I will be back. We'll do the show on the 15th. Um, so yeah, so first ninth for, uh, first eight, 15th, but no, 22 or 29th. - Okay. And then back at it, uh, yep. In June. - Yep. Back at it. Um, - So on the, on the fifth.

Yep. - Maybe at a different time. 'cause like I said, I'm traveling again for two months, starting in June, July. It will not be in the studio. - Really? Yeah. Two months. - Two months. Wow. Yep. Okay. Yep. Closing up shop here in, uh, in, uh, off to Netherlands. . Okay, everybody. All right, sir. We got to the end and the YouTube crowd hung up pretty good today. Thank you on YouTube for being here. Facebook, and I didn't see you guys.

Um, but if you're listening to the show, um, we appreciate your emails. We've been getting some mad emails recently. Um, so any email is good. It's [email protected]. BLU - Screw in the pot. A - Little bit. Yeah, a little, a little. Uh, B-L-U-B-R-R y.com. [email protected]. At Geek News at Geek News chat on Mastodon and at Geek News on X. - And I'm also on X at Rob Greenley and I can be [email protected].

You can also, uh, be reached by email if you wanna reach me at, uh, at rob [email protected]. I'm on LinkedIn and all, all the major platforms. So if you wanna reach out. And then I'm doing my Live Streamy yard show tomorrow night at 7:00 PM Eastern. I've got a large, uh, a YouTuber and podcaster joining me on that program. - So, and I, I might be adding a mailing list for the new media show and, uh, really? Yeah. And that's awesome. We're going to use Google Groups.

This is the way you can, uh, you don't get no tracking. You just put your email into it. You'll get the email from us, but you can't, there's no click tracking or nothing like that. So it's a free way to do a podcast mailing list. Mm-Hmm. , uh, without, uh, you don't have to pay MailChimp or nobody like that. It's just, it's not fancy. So, um, right. I'll get that in work.

And either this week or next week, we'll have it on the website where people can sign up and then they'll get a newsletter, an email from each show. Uh, our comical AI will put together a show summary for you. Mm-Hmm. . And, uh, doesn't substitute listening, but go over to new media show.com followers, subscribe to the podcast. We appreciate it on your favorite podcast app. And don't forget about those newfangled podcast [email protected].

So everyone thanks, we'll see you. We'll see you next week. See you next week. Bye. Bye. Bye.