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Todd, welcome to the show, my friend. It's so great to see you. Thanks for having me, man. Hey, man, it is my pleasure. So happy to get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
well the short story is i'm probably the luckiest person you're going to talk to in a while i really feel that way i have a lot of gratitude for the career so far a few different careers started with anderson and ernst and young and figured out that business and relationships especially were fascinating but did not fit me as well as I kind of maybe thought they would.
but i wouldn't let go of those objects i wanted to study and i realized my inner dork really wanted to come out so i said i'm gonna take a risk and get out of here and be a professional outsider in the business world and one got phd and became a professor PhD at Texas A&M in organizational behavior. I was a professor for 10 years at a school in Ohio that I loved, a place called Wright State University, teaching mostly MBA students things about leadership.
And on the side, this is where the current career began to slowly bubble up. As you know, smart people like you can't even just do one career. We just always have to be dabbling over here, side hustling over there. And people start calling, hey man, I was in your class. We've got a meeting coming up. Last year, this guy we had was boring. Would you come out and tell some stories? You were great in class.
that's how it started and i showed up for free for a year like people do and then they started offering to pay me and then it built into a career and about the time i was thinking true story i'm not sure if i have time to be a professor anymore because i'm running around trying to be this new speaker person trying to figure out what it means to write a book then i got a call from a company you've heard of
called linkedin at the time they were lynda.com and they really wanted to start making some courses in my area And now I thought, I think I finally have what it takes to feel okay after 10 years of walking away from being a professor. And for the last decade, I've been making courses, writing books, and giving speeches like nobody's business.
I love it, man. And listeners, so Todd and I, we met in Cali at the LinkedIn Learning Headquarters. And first of all, LinkedIn is like the best company ever. This is not just me saying this. I don't know if you've experienced this too, Todd. Essentially, everybody I've worked with at LinkedIn has been just absurdly cool like really cool to work with they are absurdly wonderfully abnormal
Exactly. Exactly. And I love that. And so we hit it off there in Cali. And I heard all of you to check out Todd's courses. We're going to link to the courses and the books and everything. Yeah, I'm excited to just, first of all, vibe with you because I loved our chats back in Cali, but also share.
with the audience the insights that you've developed because you have such a diverse background when it comes to your career and the way that you've grown and shared your content with the world so i just kind of want to sit back and maybe let's start off with the biggest learning that you've gotten over the past
few decades doing this and then we can roll that into the newest book? Well, honestly, there's so many wonderful ways to answer that question. It's a great question. I would say that when people finally started talking, I think it was the 90s, I don't recall, maybe you can correct me, about continuous learning.
you know making that thing that we're always going to do until the end if we're smart i was so happy to see the rise of that because i'd already personally committed to it as i kept trying to do things because it's required for growth period and so i was fascinated to see phrase come around and people start to really embrace it and of course as you know only in the last decade has tech really started to infuse that idea put in the platform that you and i are on
And then it's funny, true story. A guy asked me once, I was still a professor at the time, maybe it was the last year or two there. so you spent a lot of time in school you've done a lot of things talk to a lot of people what did you learn if you've got 10 seconds to share with me something awesome about what you what have you learned that can help me it was almost that simple and i said well i learned how little i know So far.
And that is the truth. It's not a joke. It's not a play. It's just the truth. And if you will think about that and realize that it's true for all of us in different ways, it is wonderfully humbling and then motivating to stay in the game, keep trying and keep growing. Absolutely. I'm with you.
It's like the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. It's the inverse of the Dunning-Kruger effect. When I find people that are supremely confident in a lot of things, it means one of two things. Either they're really good. or they really have no idea. You know as well as I do that there's so many pros call themselves experts in different areas and we're related but different with our areas.
And they still do believe, I think this died in the 80s and 90s, but there's still some folks doing it. they claim that overconfidence over polished i know it all just ask me persona and i'm fascinated by that as a guy who loves to study and talk about authenticity among other things i really am because i think the more we make people relax by showing them that being human and imperfect is okay the more the vibe in the room actually is conducive to everybody learning a little something
Bingo. Exactly. And I think everybody is afraid or a lot of people are afraid of being themselves and just they struggle with the reality that part of being themselves includes. Warts and all the mistakes that we make, we don't know everything. And there's a simple reason why we don't know everything just because it's literally impossible to know everything. And there's nothing bad about admitting that.
yeah and just being a human with another human yeah so i used to hang out with a bunch of scientists and thankfully i'm recovering from that 15 years of life but they were mostly in agreement with us but once in a while a good i'm making this number up a good 20 of them really were full of themselves enough with their publications and such
that they kind of thought they knew if not at all certainly a lot more than most humans and i always felt bad for them because i figured that would overall when the race was finally done limit what they will have accomplished and what they will have realized. And so I always took note of that, like, man, that's a way to waste some smarts right there, assuming that you know more than you know. I've spent a career talking about my screw-ups and mistakes and setbacks.
which in fact is a lead in the book because it was born from a mistake, sir. Yes, let's talk about the book because it's fascinating for me, especially as an author. The approach that you've taken with this most recent book is really, really cool. So let's set the stage. Tell the audience about the book. To set the stage, I've got to do what I'm good at and make fun of myself. So here we go. I read a modest amount. I like to read novels, popular novels mostly.
I got this idea that gazillions of us have been inflicted with over the years that, you know, I think I could do that too. I think that would be fun. I want to try that. And three times, you got to throw three bricks at my head before I'll wake up, sir. I tried to do just that. I finished three of them. They were all three horrid. Believe me, take my word for it. Never to be published or seen again.
And I finally concluded about a year and a half ago on the third kind of side hustle fun activity attempt. So I'm never doing that again. I'm going to save the energy I have for things that might make sense. But.
there was a kernel of an idea in the third one i didn't want to let go of it was about this misfit monster a vampire in an office setting and some of the things that challenges that he faced and i thought to myself wait a minute there's a genre i've often thought was kind of interesting that i said a few times i should probably try that and i've never done it and that's the fable
of the business book world. And so I sat down and said, well, if I was going to do that, what would I do? And ideas just started blowing out of me. True story. Six, seven hours later, first draft is done. Really? People like to say you got to stay in your lane. I like to say you have to go find your lane first. that's amazing that is so interesting and I think that's just it's a sign you found it
Right. And you found that momentum. This is really interesting. So, okay. Vampire in an office setting. This is great. And so for the listeners who are saying what in the world, a vampire in an office setting, what is this about? Let's start with the beginning, the end in mind. Let's begin with the end in mind. So we have a vampire named Joe Vampire. And he's a little cocky and full of himself, but really isn't that great.
performer anymore all monsters having of course an obvious goal to learn how to scare children and the powers that be in the world of monsters start to come and give him some difficult feedback long story short they thought to save him get him back on track and maybe help him realize his real potential they actually wanted to
Ask him to lead a group of other misfit monsters and together go try and take on a very difficult task long story short so there's a ghost and a zombie and werewolf and so on and they're all struggling with self-confidence struggling with finding their better
self and joe first screws up with them does the things you're not supposed to do as a leader and realizes he's not getting any productivity out of this team has a serious come to jesus moment that was so fun to write about because it was actually reflective of an event in my life and then starts to think about a far more productive way to relate to this group of monsters. and the result was spectacular. They all figured out how to take a real step forward.
and become the monsters they always wanted to be and it's cute and fun and inspiring and maybe even educational because after i finish the story in the back end there's many pages of the discussion section where i lay out the very specifics about Some of these basics that I want aspiring leaders and young leaders to really think about. For example, candor, not just kindness.
So we are lost. You and I were talking about LinkedIn and LinkedIn is a good example of this. And I just revere them, but I can also critique them just like we can critique anything. They love positivity in all its forms and try to really resist a lot of negativity and anything that sounds difficult for someone to hear now there's a risk you've probably heard this term toxic positivity it's fairly new term the idea is simple sometimes cultures
really care so much about kindness congeniality positivity all these related ideas that we forget how to be difficult and critical in moments when we need to because high performance requires candor not just kindness that's the difficulty of feedback the reality of feedback
i think linkedin actually some of my friends there are so kind it warms my heart that's not a joke and also have to remember what candor is all about and the role that it plays in pushing us forward uh to the best of our abilities and so finding up vehicle with these goofy strange monsters to try and talk about a few of these basics like candor not just kindness it was a lot of fun i love this
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I'm Tommy Cohen. LinkedIn. If you're just as curious as I am, The insights behind what it takes to create a world-renowned Then tune in to my podcast. There's so much to learn. Like how Patagonia innovates when it's a We had to go out to farmers and It was really damn hard.
thinks about the first interaction somebody has with Photoshop. I was always so fascinated by how people navigate and find their way. Ever wanted to know how Nike built into the Jordan brand you have to be obsessed with the current state of the human condition
And it doesn't stop there. What about how Glynn reinvented knowledge search with a You can learn about how Michelin star chef is redesigning seeds for flavor and how Pixar is nurturing a creative Listen to Building One on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I am so interested to dig deeper into the candor versus kindness approach because
This is a challenge for so many different organizations because you're right. A lot of times they focus on the feelings. Okay, we want people to feel good. How do we make people feel good? By being nice. So that means we can't say bad things. okay and now we're not having conversations now we're not having tough conversations right so so let's dig a little bit deeper into what exactly makes
this balance so difficult for leaders in the professional world? Well, first of all, everyone who shows up to work every day, which is kind of funny. Most of us were not trained to be actors.
but we manage impressions which is just a type of acting to meet the expectations of those around us our supervisor our peers our customers and clients etc and that is a sign of social intelligence but as we all I think know when we think about it we overindulge in that reality to the point that we have very measured and sometimes distant dare I say plastic relationships transactions instead of relationships and that is a serious
upside if you want to frame it correctly as opposed to being a problem it's a serious upside for the realization of and better relationships so why do we have trouble with candor we want to be nice and not problematic why is that the problem Because niceness alone only gets you so far. And let me be clear, it is the expected, necessary, wonderful foundation for sure.
and it has to be sincere if you have a lot of candor not a ton of positivity you're gonna have people whose feathers are ruffled and conflict will be the thing of the day man if you have Tons and tons of positivity, not enough candor. You're going to have a whole lot of people feeling decent about going to work who are not accomplishing amazing things. If you have modest amounts of both, they'll shift over time as needed. But basically, good amounts of both.
That provides the context within which the potential feather or ruffling thing that is candor becomes digestible, useful, maybe even something I should care about and get excited about. It's all about context and that comes from the positivity. Does that make sense?
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So, I mean, more or less, we're trying to find that Goldilocks zone for each relationship and interaction. I love the fact that you're not creating that false dichotomy because a lot of people say, listen, I'm just going to tell it what it is. I'm not here to be nice. I'm just here to, you know. Hurt people's feelings apparently.
Right. You have to have a little bit of that relationship building aspect, that niceness, because it makes you more persuasive and effective. But like you said, if we tip too far into that niceness, now we're muddying the message. because it's so clouded by the fluff. that we can't even really understand what the message originally was supposed to be. Go ahead. Why do people do that? I think it's because we lack empathy. And I'm so happy thanks to...
Many, many voices, even much bigger than mine in the last 10 years or so, have taken a few issues. empathy and vulnerability come to mind is important and they're covered in the book so to speak and brought them to the forefront because it used to be let's pick on the 1980s I'm a child of the 80s I think we peaked with greed is good in the 80s That was kind of the last era where it was unquestioned to say performance is what matters.
Profits is what matters. Getting done, achieving goals, that's what matters. That is true. Those are useful. Now we know that's incomplete. It's a foundation. It's a big, maybe the biggest part of it. But if you're ever, ever going to achieve anything, you're going to do it through positive relationships. That sounds so obvious to you and me, but it's not that many years old of an idea for it being as common as high performance is what matters.
It makes sense. Absolutely. And this brings up something that we were talking about before the podcast began. the reality that we're living in a time now with this intergenerational workplace where we have five generations in the office at the same time. And so if you grew up at that time where greed is good, focus on profit and productivity and production.
exclusively. Now you're going to be working next to somebody who grew up in the everybody's a winner type of era. Can you tell us about some of those challenges that come about? So there's huge challenges and there are just very dedicated experts out there who study the generations and their differences and similarities.
And I don't consider myself one of them. I'm more of a world-class leadership generalist. Having said that, I'm fascinated by those generations. Some of the differences are obvious. And I wrote the book for the younger millennials and Zs that are starting to dominate even managerial roles at this point because they do.
expect radically more than my dad's generation for example and he was a boomer to have a voice That sounds like to me a concept I heard a little bit of in the front end of my career and a little more ever since.
somewhat common now to think in terms of leadership is about dictating it's about collaborating it's not the rule in the book yeah so people expect when they're in gen z and most of the millennials expect to have an input they do not like let me put it to you this way no adult has ever gone to work and just loved being treated like a child that is to say people just tell them what to do give them dictate and don't engage them as a
peer in dialogue about what maybe we should do at all. I'm trying to draw clear contrast here to make a point. I know that every relationship is a mix of these things and that sometimes leaders do have to dictate there are circumstances that really justify that with emergencies and deadlines and so on. Generally speaking, those young'uns want a voice. You want to know why? Because ultimately, compared to earlier generations, they want to feel a little more purpose and meaning in work.
which to my dad's generation was a looney tunes idea i'm here to fulfill this transaction make a paycheck and put food on the table for my family which is not an unreasonable thing to say by the way but there is something even better you could say which is that you know what we don't have to feel
Like we're wasting our time when we go to work. We can feel purpose. And I have actually great news as a recovering scholar to share with people about that topic. You don't have to have your dream job like I do.
speaking and writing pontificating for a living you don't have to have that quote-unquote dream job to feel meaning and purpose at work because the work itself is only one variable that impacts that experience the quality of relationship hugely impacts that feeling so you can be doing a job that you think is well good not great but be doing it with people you respect and often enjoy and you will feel purpose that's that's amazing
Absolutely. And I love the fact that you brought together the value of purpose and meaning, but also recognizing that the relationships that you have at work are going to play a massive role in that. in how good you feel at work and how connected and engaged you feel at work. And again, it's going to be tough to feel that positivity from these relationships.
If we're not having these conversations, if we're not leaning in and having difficult conversations when appropriate. And can you go a little bit deeper into when it comes to the relationships that we have at work? Well, there's some basics for people to remember there for sure. You know, we spend more time at work than home. I don't know how, what more? Brick to the head, hits you in the gut kind of shot you can take than that. We spend more time with our...
Are folks at work? And the question is, is it a positive or negative experience? It's a weird time. So on the one hand, we're starting to recognize through certain areas of org scholarship, lots of different types of medical and mental health professionals now that work is killing people. I like to say it bluntly because the U.S. has been on again and off again the most productive as by the formulas that they produce.
to see which employees are working the most hours and producing the most value for their organizations we've topped that list on many occasions over the last couple decades on the one hand that's really brilliant look at us kicking it you know just really doing well on the other hand there's a consequence to be seen for excessive dedication to clocking the hours and working for the man and those health
statistics are now piling up the pandemic kind of accelerated some of them but they were already a fascinating topic growing topic of conversation before the pandemic Physical reality of a sedate life sitting in a chair is piling up and known predictable things that are going to happen to the human body. The mental health impact of goals and stress and excessive hours away from friends and family levels is producing predictable health.
the challenges i'm not making anything up or saying anything controversial so at the same time all that is maybe coming to a head We're seeing over the last 10 years, a lot of new voices talking about what you and I are talking about today, which is humane, productive. healthy, maybe progressive ways to think about relationships driving all that really matters at work because the more we tend to that, the more we get one good answer to the health issues that have emerged.
and help people feel some of that purpose, like they're not wasting their time every day. What more beautiful thing could you possibly say, right? Absolutely. And you're right. It is connected. And it's almost like sometimes the most obvious things are the hardest to see. And it's fascinating to see how we still struggle with it, even though we recognize the truth right now.
Now, here's something that I've seen in some organizations. You have some people who are working, working, working, working, working. Like you said, I like the way that you described it, excessive dedication. And now one of the things that I'm recognizing some leaders are struggling with is...
hey, I'm trying to pay attention to the mental health and happiness of my team. And I'm recognizing that some people are working really, really hard to the point where it might be unhealthy. How do I get somebody on my team to actually slow down? even though it seems antithetical to their position. Yeah, it's a great question. It's a very difficult one to answer for people that are practicing.
i gotta tell you one of the worst things you can do as a leader or leadership team is to espouse certain values and then not appear to live up to them that's worse than never even saying that you do value the thing that you didn't really do and work-life balance which kind of gets away is one of those. We value you and your family.
and all kinds of things, and you shouldn't be working too late, Dosh Garnet. And then, you know, the pressure down on the average team is that you better stay here, you better be late with me, we better get it done, but there's a lot of pressure, we don't want the boss and the clients to be upset, etc.
so i answer your question by saying leaders model the way if you're serious about that and you have to work hard to figure out how to be so excellent in your processes and your hiring etc that you can get away with this but if you want to really lead the way it doesn't start with
saying these things are important to work-life balance, but by showing it. It's when the CEO whoever they might be does come in late once in a while and explain it because he had a human thing he had to do and leave by five o'clock and then While he's leaving, walk through and see a whole bunch of people to make sure they see him or her or whatever, leaving so it's actually real.
some companies by the way are very serious about it maybe i admire their efforts even if it's kind of weird what they're doing but they'll try and see people who aren't living up to that work-life balance You know, work isn't everything mentality. And if they catch them doing emails or using work phones after hours, they'll dock them.
some way with by making fun of them at the office or by charging them a small nominal fee to make a point. All kinds of weird creative things are happening to make people behaviorally start to inch towards the ideal instead of just espousing the ideal.
so there isn't a perfect answer to that question yet but i can tell you the leaders who care about it for real are going to try to first and foremost embrace it themselves and show others that it's okay to feel the struggle and it's okay to try to take a step in the direction of sanity and health not Just clocking the hour. Brilliant. You're absolutely right. And I think a lot of times, not just as leaders, but just humans in general, we forget
the power of modeling the behavior we want to see. We forget the power, the persuasive value of actually doing the things and showing people what it is that we want. And so I'm really glad that you said that because, again, this is a negotiation podcast. We like to focus on the words that we say, but we often overlook just our behaviors. Those are really the most important things that we can do when it comes to being persuasive.
Definitely an underrated topic as far as I'm concerned. People learn vicariously just by watching others quite effortlessly because they don't feel the risks involved in a direct interaction with the person. It's kind of cool. In the book, I had the vampire, for example, one time. After telling, I'm not giving away too much here, but after telling his crew of misfit monsters to try and jump through something and go scare some kids, he actually realized how aggressive it is.
maybe inappropriate he handled that situation and on round two so to speak He realized he wanted to stand before them full of being vulnerable and showing the risks of potential failure and say, I need to show you that I can do this before I can start.
telling you how you should be doing it and he modeled the way by demonstrating the behavior not knowing if he's going to be successful because he'd struggled too but in this case he was successful priceless now it's not just a value espoused it's a behavior engaged i know some leaders are getting chills like absolutely not todd i will never put myself in that position but you're so right to see how powerful that is. I think about it even in parenting too.
One of the most powerful things you can do for your kids is let them know that I'm not perfect. And if you're a good parent that's present a lot, it's easy for your child when they're young to say, oh, this is Superman, this is Superwoman, they can do no wrong. But I found a lot of value just being honest.
when I don't have it when I make mistakes and just owning up to it because it makes it easier for the kids to do it too and I think just again reinforcing the beauty of our own humanity is so encouraging and motivating it's essentially what we really crave in leaders but
As leaders, sometimes we can forget that. And it's very hard to be vulnerable in that way. It is. And I can tell your listeners, it's a skill over time you can learn, meaning at least you can gain comfort with it. I just applaud you saying you do that with your kids. I know my boys are a little older than yours.
sophomore in high school and sophomore college and we're basketball folks players and fans uh throughout the years and we like to say i like to say to them i've said so many times it's hilarious you gotta shoot your shot I'm not gonna all go in. You got to shoot your shot. You miss 100%. So said Jordan and a million others of the shots you don't take. And I really, really, really believe that. So people know me for maybe two successes, if I'm being honest.
uh they don't know about the 15 that were ugly crash and burn i've got plenty of them and they hurt for a period then i learned like you're supposed to and tried to move forward in a more productive way just like i did by switching formats in the book that i was sharing with you i just want to validate you and say yeah there's tons of parallels to parenting and i have definitely adopted these shown the imperfection part uh to my boys as well and i'd like to believe it's had a good effect
Definitely. Oh, this is great. This is really great. And I think this is a great way to wrap it up too, because it's an ode to continuous improvement because you're not going to just listen to this podcast and be like, you know what? Todd's right. I'm going to be uber vulnerable tomorrow. It's, it's just This is just not how it works. And I like thinking about it as a skill.
And just saying, listen, every day, every week, every month, every year, I'm going to try to be a little bit more open, show a little bit more of myself and be that human leader that I want to be. And I think that's incredibly powerful. And I think it's just incredible. very impressive that you are able to show the value of human leadership through a vampire who's not a human no
Todd, man, I appreciate you. Before you go, let the listeners know again about the new book and all of the LinkedIn courses and the best way to get in touch. Well, I have two homes online. Thanks for asking. So there's drdoit.com. That's my personal site. But where I spend a ton of time, of course, is LinkedIn. If we're not connected, I'd love to say hi. Please reach out on LinkedIn. The book is Dancing with Monsters, and it should be available anywhere on planet Earth. You might vote.
love it Todd appreciate you man thanks for coming on the show my pleasure take care bud wait wait wait wait wait now before you sign off I have something to tell you that I've never told you before Just kidding. I've told you before about it. You should listen to it again. I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium. Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed plus so much more. I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode.
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