When Healthy Boundaries are Broken w/ Sola Oluborode

The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I Heart Media, or their employees. When I decided to go no contact is because we met up after the breakup and we had gone out to eat and he embarrassed

me in front of a bakery. A young lady mentioned that we looked que and she wanted to call her husband because we were such a vibe, and he announced the bakery that she just broke up with me, And that's when I was like, you're really unpredictable right now, and you are just grasping like this is this is wild, Like you're not telling them why we broke up, you know, you're telling a bunch of random people. I'm like, that was embarrassing. He laughed in my face when I told

him it was embarrassing. When we think about narcissistic relationships, we think about fast, exciting love bombing, and the standard story is that you get so dazzled by the excitement that you missed the red flags. But what if you start with a friendship for years. Many people don't think they could get into a toxic relationship with someone who has been a long term friend because they believed they

would have seen all of the red flags. Not so fast. Today, we are going to hear the story of Shala, whose long long friendship turned into a less long relationship, a friendship that went from I want to see you all the time, come over any time, to a relationship where the talk was I need my space. Maybe the things that look like quirks in a friendship become downright toxic

in a relationship, whatever it is. She has a story of doing the right things, being friends, setting boundaries, but still getting to a very confusing, hurtful, and gaslighted relationship. Let's hear Shalla's story. Chola, it is such a pleasure to see you again and to have you on where

I'd like to begin with you is. I'd like to have you tell us the story of your relationship with your now ex boyfriend, because it started as a friendship first, So could you take us to the very beginning when you literally first met him and sort of lay out the entire story of the relationship, even from back then. Yes, men of a friends party, it did appear though he probably was interested in me, but you know, I wasn't

really too concerned with that. We became friends on social media, so you know, started chatting via Facebook, and then he invited me to his friends giving, which I thought was a kind gesture, Like I said, we have mutual friends, and because I was newly back home, it just made me feel like, Okay, I'm becoming a part of the community again. And went to the friends giving, and then that's how the friendship progressed. So part of the friendship,

we went out to the movies at one point. Admittedly I did suspect that there was some interest, but there was never any stated interest. We hung out with a couple of friends of mine, and I did that to vet him, just to see if I would be interested in going that route, and essentially decided not to go

that route. Whether he was interested or not, just because I had heard some stories about his dating life, not too much, but he seemed to be like obsessed with love, and so I had a concern that I was going to be like plugged into this love story that he has in his mind. So he considers himself a love enthusiast.

Then pandemic hit. So the majority of our friendship was virtual, whether that's just chatting via social media, texting when people were loud outside, a little bit more, we hung out, went for walks in the park, that sort of a thing. He definitely would send flirtatious messages every now and again. I didn't really take them seriously. Definitely like a lot of commenting on my post. And I remember there was an instance where there was a cute kid on a the grand post and he sent it to me and

he's like our kid. So looking back my own self reflection, I'm like, we're y'all really friends or we're Indian. Just because you put him in the friend zone doesn't mean you were in a like a friendship, you know what I'm saying. He clearly had other intentions for you, and just because you put him in that box doesn't necessarily mean that he's put you in that box. It wasn't until one I dated a young man from l A

for a few months that didn't work out. And around the time of that breakup, maybe like a month or two after that's when are hanging out started rubbing up. And then around September was when things started to gravitate towards a more romantic side. Then I started to reconsider. Okay, you've known him for a couple of years. You do see that he's like consistently sweet. It is clear that he's interested in you, even if he hasn't particularly said hey,

let's date. Although I will say around the end of that summer he did see me on a dating app and he was like, oh, we should get off this app and just date. So that was like his first time actually saying like I want to date you. And that's kind of when I started considering it. Yeah, I got a lot of questions storry without Halloween. Okay, so two thousand, nineteen Halloween, you meet him. Okay, A couple of things jumped out at me that are so interesting.

It's not like you've just been traveling. You weren't looking to meet someone. Now, this was a friend you met a person, they seem cool, you think let's hang out. He was definitely giving you positive attention and vibes in a way that might have been in a gray area. Can I ask you this because two years is a long time to be friends with someone. In that two years, was he dating anyone? Or was he in a relationship? Actually, when we started going towards the direction of romance, he was,

in his words, casually dating a young woman. He had been seeing her for a few months, but some of the problems in that relationship were around love languages. And his primary love languages are physical touch and words of affirmation, and she doesn't do physical as touch at all. I know the love language framework is very popular. I believe that I, personally may be an act of service gal love bombing for me consists of someone bringing in the

trash cans. But that said, the love language framework can also get a little tricky with someone who has a narcissistic personality style. They may need lots of validation and write that off to my love language is words of affirmation. Be wary when someone starts laying out their love languages as a rationale for demands that may seem unreasonable and one sided. She even in his words, I thought she

might be a sexual. So him exploring that relationship again I always thought was quite odd, considering that these are things that are really important to you in a relationship and you're not You didn't get it in the first round. Why are you back in that relationship? Can I ask you? This is that he told you that she said that she might be a sexual. It's not like you heard that from her. Did not hear that from her? I

didn't know her at all. Actually, he did not break things off with her until November, and I remember thinking to myself, you should probably take some time before you move into your next thing. But by that point I think I was emotionally invested. But there were some other things that he said to me. He compared me to her a lot of times. So he would say, I love that we can have vulnerable conversation nations, we can

talk about anything. Essentially, he was only happy when he was with me, and he's miserable with this young lady that he he went back to. He's miserable. He would feel bad ending it because then he would look like a bad guy because he was the one who re established a relationship, so he's willing to suffer in order to make sure that no one else gets hurt. That was kind of like his thing. I'm willing to forfeit my happiness for other people's happiness. It's funny, it's always

so easy to analyze these stories backwards. Charlote dis dude is trying to fit himself for stained Glass. I'm such a good guy that I don't want to let someone down, so I'm staying with this person. It's all a little bit Marjorie, you know, but to me, because sadly I live in the dark shadows of narcissistic relationship. Something that's happening here in your story, it's so interesting to me. Is this what might call early triangular aition? What he

was doing. She doesn't do this, but you do this. She didn't do that. You do this, she says, she's a sexual you're so warm, whatever it. Maybe you're vulnerable, she's not. That triangulation is almost like an interesting trademark of narcissistic relationships because for a lot of us, for a lot of us, even historically in our lives. Let's say a person grew up in a household where the parent was always pitting the siblings against each other. You wanted to be the one who came out on top.

That idea of living in triangles is often what makes us vulnerable, But there is something in us to be chosen. We want to be the one who's chosen. And what these folks are able to do so expertly is set this tone of I'm so lucky I met you. This is very different than what I'm in and you can see that even in other circumstances, like if somebody is in a marriage, they'll say, my wife is not affectionate, my husband doesn't talk to me, we never have sex.

Da da da da. What a blessing that I've met you. But I'm such a good person I can't imagine hurting them. The setup is actually quite machiavellian, if you want to view it that way, and it is a way for us to feel like we are more special than someone. It's a profound dynamic that at the time is so confusing until that's why we do this podcast. Can tell anyone as soon as you get compared to someone else, the first thing that should be going through your head

is triangulation. Because you're you and you're not that person, and if they're comparing you to that person, there's something that still hasn't been fully worked through in the way he was of Another question for you, had there not been a pandemic in your case, how do you think that amount of time where you couldn't have been in the same place as him and how to have had how to be virtual? Do you think you missed anything in him because it was more virtual than you spending

a lot more time in person. I definitely think so. I feel as though, if not to compare, and when I think about the friendships that I generally do have the depth of friendships that I have, if I'm honest with myself, like the friendship wasn't really as deep. We talked virtually, so we're friends. But I wonder if I was too quick to give him that title, do you know what I mean? But yes, I would say if I had spent more time around him, I might have

seen more signs. I might have had an opportunity to see him in relationships throughout that time. I don't know. It could have also sped things up. Yeah, I think one of the challenges is the longer the friendship and especially if the friendship is something you enjoy, the more likely that once the relationship begins, a person starts wondering, it's got to be me because we were friends for

such a long time. Yeah, So I think that's one of the if you will risks of a long term friendship, if you think we've been friends for a long time. So the tendency is to put on ourselves. And then you said something else really interesting to me. I'd never heard anyone say something like this, so that's why I jumped out at me. You called him a love enthusiast, which I'm telling you every single red flag alarmy me right now. It looks like a Christmas tree. I was like,

what love enthusiast run away? So that was fascinating to me for many reasons. First of all, what even because to me love enthusiast? This is how I read it, Okay, and you can tell me because you saw the posts and the how he talked about it was he almost just wanted like these snazzy, dopamine feel good parts of love, because love is also the kind of who picks up the gallon of milk part of love. But I think

that idea of being a love enthusiast. Really almost felt like he was always on this quest for that brand new feeling of meeting someone and that whole early phase of a relationship. And the other reason that's so interesting to me is that's why this two year friendship you're in, if somebody's a love enthusiast, you would think that they'd always need to be in a relationship, were always on the quest for a relationship, So it would feel like that questing would always be a part of somebody who

is a love enthusiast. Did that ever give you concern, even that title of love enthusiasts? It did. Yeah. When I met him in twenty nineteen, that was one of the reasons I brushed off the possibility of dating him.

I was like, it's just I don't I've never seen a guy who post this much about love and like what he wants and it would be like means about people cuddling, and it's like, oh, I just want this, And I know that he's there's nothing wrong with being on apps, but I definitely know he was constantly on that search to find the one, if you will. He's also into film and loves rom coms, and interestingly enough.

I didn't realize until we dated. A lot of his favorite ron coms are of men who are like really terrible, like Womanizer's just really mean, and then they meet some woman and that woman pushes them away like for a while, and then they ultimately fall in love and everything's happy. And his story about us when we started dating, he would always tell people that I curved him for two years, which basically means I brushed him off for two years even though he was trying to date me, but he

never fully stated intentioned. But that was like his story of how we started dating, and it was cost for concern before we started dating as well. But I think at that point, like I recognize my vulnerabilities at the beginning of that relationship, having just been essentially rejected by another guy and being touched your pride and have it dated and forever, And here's this person who clearly is into me and knows me, and I feel safe with them.

They love everything about me, even the things that I don't necessarily love about myself or I'm learning to love about myself. So yeah, definitely saw some things, but just kept pushating because like, this is my friend, and I also would like to be loved, So I'm so glad you also brought that up. That one to punch of being rejected to being desired is such a powerful transfer a moment, right because you're hurt from something and whatever.

That prior break up looks like it doesn't feel good if someone else initiated it, whatever the reasons, where even if it wasn't a good relationship for you, there is no band aid. There is no warm bath in the world that feels better than going from being rejected to being desired. It is also the single most dangerous time because it's exactly when somebody who's an operator can really get in there. And you're saying you're vulnerable, I would argue that you're human. I think every single one of

us would feel that. Oh I feel like I'm living in a dark, cold room and this person is shining the sun on me. Why wouldn't somebody turn to that? And your comment about the rom coms about the bad guy gone good and somebody who almost as hard to get and they get them, girl, those films should have some sort of warning label on them. So that's this film runs the risk of you falling for love bombing and being played by a narcissism like a New rating system rated PG thirteen and this film may put you

at risk for a narcissistic relationship. We will be right back with this conversation with Shalla talk about the transition of going from friendship to romantic relationship. I think this is a really important thing for listeners to understand because what we always think of a narcissistic relationship is you meet some one dating app, bar whatever, love bomb, and

you're off to the racist. What we don't hear is much is a person who was friends with someone for a long time then they get into a romantic relationship, because that's usually not how this goes with somebody with this kind of personality, but it did in your case, and I think that that's what's unique about your story. So two years friends, even though he was a love enthusiast and whatever other strange things. I mean, the love enthusiast,

the triangulation, whatever that was. He also has a persona name that he created in college. Sona name. Yeah, here's that. I am kind of an old lady, so I don't even know what a persona name is. I suppose if I had one, it would be doctor disorganized. But that's the best thing I could come up with. But what is that about? Talk to me about this persona name for a minute. So essentially, he would call this name if he ever had to deal with heart emotions. So

let's say someone passed away or whatever. If he's feeling sad, or if he's struggling with something emotionally, and he's like, I'll be fine, I'm such and such interesting now, or like it's okay, I'm such and such, or like if he's done something really sweet for me. I like snacks. I like sugar. He bought like this packet of Hi jew and I had it delivered to his house when he knew I would be there. Now that I look back, I was like, oh, I'm so sleep. You didn't have

to do that. The same vibe. I'm like, why did you do that? He's like, because I'm such and such, that's really interesting. Yeah, So like if he does anything romantic, or if he wants to avoid a negative emotion, then he refers to this person that he's created for himself. I guess that's really interesting. It's almost like a mild

form of as association, or it's definitely compartmentalization. Yes, he actually would about his ability to compartmentalize and even have a name like It's It's almost like, this is the part. This is where I'm parking all my emotions. It's fascinating too, because even that idea of I'm going to give you a gift things like that, that's not even that vulnerable. But it is vulnerable, right because somebody can reject your gift. So it's any place where he could potentially be brought down.

He'd use that persona to block himself off. That's really really interesting. So there were these little bits okay, the persona, the bits of triangulation, the love enthusiast stuff. I gotta say, though, Shalla, Like I said, anyone can sit here after the fact and do the postmortem and think about, Okay, this is what this is in real time. Some of that almost feels quirky, silly, and no one including myself, would say run away, run away, And especially if it's your friend.

In a way, especially in a friend you definitely don't have the same kind of radar up right, But two years into a friendship is almost its own form of indoctrination because you hold space for the quirks, because that's what they're about, the persona, the love enthusiast stuff, all of that. And now you're two years in, now you're sliding into a romantic relationship. It sounds like you did have some healthy boundaries that you were maintaining with him.

Would you say that you started this relationship with a decent sense of healthy boundaries. Yeah, I'd say so, and I do remember I did have apprehensions about starting it, but it ultimately came down to this concept of, well, you feel safe around him, and for me, safety is so major feeling safe around people. It doesn't come easily. Can I ask you what it was about him that left you feeling safe? I felt like he accepted everything about me, some of the things that I feel a

little bit more self conscious about. So you know, the the A D H D, the like not necessarily being one hundred pride sent sure about what I want to do with my life. For you know, when I first moved back to the area, like staying, I was staying with family or so I kind of felt like even with the guy dated prior to him, like I always had this mentality that I'm not a real adult. So I think with him, I just felt like I was accepted as I was, Like I didn't have to be

a certain type of girl. I didn't have to be super girly or we're makeup all the time, or like be dressed to the nines. I could be silly. I could essentially just be me and that was accepted by him, and he would even say things like I love how deeply you feel things, you know. So I just I felt celebrated around on a holistic level and I didn't feel like I had to be a certain way to

be accepted by him. And it's interesting I think that that's an important thing almost for anyone listening to this to reflect on, is safety means so many different things to so many people. On what I'm hearing from you, is safety meant acceptance of of who you are, all of it. Because for other people, safety means different things. And I think that that's such an interesting thing to reflect on, because when we do feel safe, it's a wonderful feeling, but it also means some of our radar

comes down a little bit too. And again, with a two year friendship with friends, I have to say, the net of acceptance is often a lot wider than it isn't in a new intimate relationship, like little things like how someone choose we may not notice that, and a friend like whatever, it's my friend, but in a relationship like I can't do this. And so I think that you had this interesting opportunity of the much more flexible acceptance that comes from a friendship did create the sense

of safety. Okay, so now where it September, You're like, Okay, I'm feeling it. You're feeling it. There's been this sort of a bit of a sizzle between us for a few years. But in those two years you didn't have sex, none of that. It wasn't like you kind of had those lapses. It was two years of a straight, non sexual friendship. September, you know, you say okay, let's do it,

and so you do it. What was the relationship? Like I kind of at that point, I thought, okay, if we're doing this, we're doing this, like we're all in. And then we started going on date dates. So before it was all just kind of like hanging out at his house, and then we started going on actual dates, and there were moments where it just kind of felt like like I was not a burden, but like that I was clingy or needy, like if I wanted to

hang out with him. He wouldn't outright say like you want to hang out too much, but he would say things like I never get work done when you're here. You know, I struggle with boundaries, and you have to help me with my boundaries. So like there be times I'd be over his house hanging out and all of a sudden, it's like, oh, I still need to get work. It'll be like eleven o'clock and he's like, oh, I still need to do this work. And I'm like, well,

why didn't she say anything. He's like, well, you know I'm terrible with boundaries. You have to help me with my boundaries. And I'm like, no, they're your boundaries, Like I can't enforce your boundaries, like I have to worry about my own. Like I can encourage you, but I'm not going to be the one to set your boundaries for you. Or he would say things like you seem to be okay with like wanting to be around people

all the time, but I need a lone time. But I would tell him like I don't want to be like a burden, Like if I'm doing too much, then let me go or whatever. I remember a conversation where he essentially was telling me that I seemed to need to be around people I know, like I'm not that social to be Like I work, and then I spend a lot of time alone and when I want to hang out with you, I make sure my stuff is done and then I hang out with you. And to him,

it was like, you're always out and about. You seem to not need alone time, but I need alone time. So it became this I've always wanted to be with you, and then it became like you want too much time. And then when I expressed my concern about that kind of sentiment and feeling like I was being a burden, he was like, well, but no, because whenever you leave then I miss you and I'm like, oh, I wish she was here. There was so much push and pull

this style. It's quite fascinating. You're here too much, You're up and my grill, you're getting in the way of me doing stuff. You're like, okay, I don't want to be written some let me pull back. Oh no, I miss you so much when you're gone. That actually has a name. It's called an approach avoidance style, all right, So it's actually a ing and it is reflective us somewhat avoidant or even anxious attachment style, which is something we can see in people with narcissistic personalities. And it

goes to this really interesting point. For narcissistic people, they see people as objects, right, and just like there's a thing in your house you may not need until you need it, and then you want it, and then you put it away until you want it again. I don't know that any of us would be particularly thrilled if our coffee maker waddled up to us at six o'clock in the evening and said, hey, why aren't you talking

to me? I'd be like, you're my coffee maker, Like, learn your place, go back on the counter, because it's our coffee machine. It's a machine, not a person. But for a narcissistic person, they actually can almost view a person as I don't want you around now, so disappear, and then what I want you around, I want you to reappear. And as a result, for a person in a relationship like this, there's this real bird and of mind reading, as though you have to anticipate does this

person want me around? Do they not want me around? He won't communicate clearly, and in a way, it goes back to that double bind that if he communicates clearly that then he's that so called bad guy again. But if you have to do all the heavy lifting and figure it out, then ultimately you might be the bad one. For oh, how come you didn't come around that much? You didn't you know you're you're coming around less? Or

why did you leave? It's you become the issue, and he's not communicating clearly what he wants because it will make him almost look bad, just like he didn't want to end the relationship with that person at an earlier time. So everything goes into this investment of him looking good. So that's literally, I mean, it's crazy making right to live like that, and that approach avoidance style leaves people confused because they're always trying to anticipate that other person's deed.

And it sounds like when you were friends, that was never an issue. See and that's really interesting to me and come over any time, or at one point he's like moving, which he denied, saying later in the relationship it's like moving company time, let's hanging out any time. Yea, So now it's you do this dance from November through January. Okay, then what did you get into a more even steady rhythm at that point? Was that part of the dance done?

And then what happened from January on? Okay? So January things kind of started to settle. And then towards the end of January, that was when I expressed that I thought I was falling in love with him, and he agreed. He said, oh, yes, I am too, but we had to take some things in a perspective. That was the first major instance of like the gas lighting. So he he named three things that he believed for seemingly insurmountable. All of these things were things that essentially were my responsibility.

So one of them was me not wanting kids, which he knew well before we started dating, which he also married while we were friends. The second thing was compatibility in the area of intimacy, which at that point we had not been intimate because he was actually withholding from me for those first few months. So I want to understand this because it sounds like you were saying to him at this point, I'm falling in love with you.

And that led to a cascade of we're not on the same page with kids, were not compatible in terms of intimacy, Yeah, even though we weren't being intimate, Even though you weren't intimate, and he was also falling in love with you. But yes, yes, he wanted to have kids to kind of have this perfect in his mind. He sees like Christmas by the tree and presents and stuff, and I was like, you do know, kids are around every day, Like it's not just holidays. You do have

to keep them alive. You have to also make sure you don't traumatize them, like that's and it lost money, Like it's not just about these lovey dovey moments that he wished he had growing up. People tell me I would be a great mom. I'm a teacher, of course, like I worked with kids, I'm great with kids. That does not mean that I want to have kids, nor

does it mean I should have kids. So obviously, looking back and recognizing who I was dealing with in his mind, probably someone telling him he would be a great father, and he would like, oh, this is another thing that would make me look great. So that was the first part. The second part was the discussion around compatibility again, he was unable to express his needs. So I'm like, I don't understand how you're concerned about compatibility when we're not

even having sex. And also that's not even an issue. Like you and your partners should talk about the things that you like and explore together what the both you are comfortable with, and you work from there. That's what relationships are about. And yeah, there was a lot of ridiculing on his part, just a lot of hurtful things were said. At one point he told me, like, you knew the relationship I just came out of. You're the

reason why this might not work. You know, I'm offering suggestions, and by offering suggestions, I'm not being understanding of his issues or if the suggestion that I offer, I'm going to judge him if he's interested in this thing or that thing. And I'm like, you're projecting that on me because I'm not judging you. Much of what she seems to be experiencing here is what happens in any toxic relationship, which is blame shifting, and in her case, it was

coupled with ridicule. All of these things together that she was experiencing blame shifting, judgment, ridicule and projection are standard parts of these relationships. They actually make sense. The questions and conversations about intimacy may have been threatening to him and playing off of his shame and insecurity. And the challenge in these relationships is that if you ping their shame, they will launch into lots of defensive maneuvers to protect themselves,

even if it hurts the other person. The other problem becomes when the other person in the relationship is willing to justify this behavior. Oh, they're just doing this because they're insecure. If you do that for many years, then you are effectively becoming a long term committed punching bag and during their bad behavior out of a misplaced sense of guilt or empathy. The lack of empathy in these

relationships means that they are a one way street. Lots of empathy for them, none for the other person, and some blame as the cherry on top a dynamic that is not good for anyone. I'm hearing the salute confusion and how did you feel? I mean, you're telling this person I'm falling in love with you, and you were basically being given a laundry list of reasons why this

may not work out. I didn't expect it because I'm like, this guy told me that he was into me for two years, like the whole time you were into me, and so I guess walking into it, I was like, oh, like, I just have to be myself, you know what I mean? And yes, we have to work through things, but I just had to be myself. And it ended up becoming a time where I took a week of space and I told him everything. I felt like, I felt like I was gas lit. I felt like I was villainized, realiculed.

I felt like I had to earn your luck, like you were telling me, They're these three things that are seemingly insurmountable, which means impossible to overcome. That I have to essentially figure out to earn your love. So it was like I thought I already had that, but then it's like, no, just kidding. Here she is talking about one of the most painful elements of any relationship characterized by antagonism or narcissistic patterns, and that is conditional love.

The idea that you have to earn a person's love, jump through hoops for their love, that you are loved because of what you do. Instead of simply being loved. All of that is conditional love. It's a very unhealthy precedent and is often one that started in childhood for most people. It makes relationships transactional and is a key element of trauma bonding, the idea that if I am better or do better or am more, then I will be loved. So if I am not loved, then that

means I am not trying hard enough. And I was like, but why am I not leaving? Maybe I'm not leaving because I feel like this will be the last time I see him, And I ended up staying and the next morning there is like no affection from him at all. And I remember like he was working out and I was just trying to decide should I just leave, and like that's it? And he says to me, why are you acting weird? Why are you acting funny? It was

such an odd thing. So, yeah, I did ask for a week off of whatever we were doing because I was like, I need to come back to a sense of self, which I said to him, what happened in that week off? Did things change? We didn't talk for that week, so a lot of what I was doing I was talking to my therapist, talking to friends, and just trying to make sense of everything, just trying to understand what was going on, Like is this okay? Should I consider moving forward? Do I want to end this?

I remember feeling a lot of anxiety. So at the end of the week, what happened in your relationship? So like, the week has gone by, you're not talking to each other? Okay, then what So there was a point in the week where I reached out to discuss when we were going to meet up, because it was kind of like, let's take a break and like, really think is this what we want to do? So I reached out to check in, Hey, what day do you want to meet up? That kind

of a say. Of course, I asked him how he was doing, and he's like, I'm awful, just kind of like bopie and stuff. So we met up the following week and I remember him asking me to take photos for him before we sat out. Was like, that's so weird. Like when I look back, I was like, why are you, Like we're discussing like the future of our relationship, why are you having me take photos of you for your posts? But when we had the conversation, there was a lot

of like, that's not what I meant. There was one thing that he did say to me. This is also the first time he had said I was being passive aggressive the day where I was acting funny, but he said something to me in that kind of like reconnecting conversation, which was, I like to think about the future. If we have an issue, are you going to run off, like to your mom's house and not talk to me

for an extended period of time. I want to know that if we have issues, you're not just going to run away and not talk to me, Which was an odd thing to say, but I think at that point I wanted things to be okay and I wanted as to move forward. But now, like looking back, I was like, what, Like, I was very clear about how I felt, and I asked for a break, Like it wasn't that I just disappeared, and I put a time frame on it. This is

not just me running off. So we decided to progress, and it was just kind of if we're in this, let's both be in this, and he kind of agreed to that, and he said even like the whole idea about me being responsible for his boundaries, Like he even said, I'm not gonna do that anymore. What is interesting about what we've heard here is that there is an interesting penny drop moment in relationships with people. I mean, and at this point, you know, there's this approach avoidance style.

Just when it's almost like you think it's going well is exactly when they'll pull back. And that really sets up a trauma bond to dance because you're constantly sort of chasing them and and you are actually trying to communicate really really clearly, like these are the things I've been very clear on. I don't want kids. I want

us to communicate about intimacy. You're very very clear, And those things would then get sort of distorted and twisted and confused, especially in the wake of a really big emotional revelation that I'm falling in love with you. And I always save to folks the falling in love moment, that I love you moment in a toxic or narcissistic relationship is such a revelation because it's exactly then it's almost as though they know they have you, and that's

when it's sort of game on. And I think that's a moment of real devastation for people because they're saying we were actually doing fine before I shared how I really feel Now I did, and I feel like it's just worse. Even out Up until this point in this relationship, there was a lot of chasing. He was on, he was off, I want to be alone. I don't want to be alone. I want to be alone. I don't

want you to leave me. I mean, so it's like there's a lot of stuff again, approach, avoidance, abandonment, all those kinds of things. My session with Charlah will continue after this break. So as your relationship continued, I am hearing that there was a certain level of exhaustion to it.

And although intellectually you seem to hear and know that there were issues with it, there was also some concern after that week when you were out of touch, that you wanted it to continue to work right, but things were continuing to unravel. What would you start categorizing as the last straws of your relationship? What were some of those incidents that really said I can't anymore? So January for me was actually first straw, like first or first strike.

That January conversation was first strike. But I'm like, I'm gonna how to be mature and like, I'm going to express how I feel and what I need and give us an opportunity to just trying to be mature and relationships. So strike number two was that other incident in March. Then things are good again and then we gone this vacation at the end of May. Around May, I noticed he was like rebranding on social media. So I'm starting

to see different types of posts. There was one post about the one that got away, and then it was the post about the young ladies shaking their asses into loom so he could see it. So that was, Okay, we need to have a conversation because if we're in a relationship, you're actually posting videos of me with you. He had me like in reels and stuff like that, so people were starting to ask questions like, oh, is that your girlfriend? Is that what you're with? So people

knew we were together. So I got to write an article about this amazing world traveler. I did like a photo shoot at this clothing swap here and the photos had just come out, Like I was just really feeling great about myself at the time, and even share that with him. And it was a few days after I shared that with him that this post happened. So he posted about single women shaking their asses into looms so that he could see it, like and posting it so

he could see it. I remember immediately responding to the post and saying not funny. And then he's like, oh, other people thought it was funny or whatever. We had been texting throughout the day. We were both with family throughout that day. He kind of noticed, like my vibe was different, so he's like, is everything okay? And I was like, I really am a bit bothered by that post. And then his response immediately, oh, so just to be clear, we're still not talking about things were worried about or

concerned about right away. And also because I'm in a relationship, I'm not allowed to post about singleness or like dating anymore. That was his immediate response. And I said, Okay, I actually am coming to you as I'm feeling what I'm feeling, and let's talk about it in person. I didn't want to have a text conversation because you're with your brother and I'm with my mom right now. And then he

praised me for that. He said, oh, I love that you understand that there's a place and time for certain conversations, even though he just like essentially double blind. Yeah, So I was like, okay, So we have the conversation about the post, and it became about again it was a joke. Other people thought it was funny. Essentially, I was being

too sensitive about this post. This idea of saying something is a joke and painting someone who was heard or bothered by something as being sensitive or not having a sense of humor is a classical play in toxic relationships. It's a way of leaving you feeling like maybe you are being too serious and not being cool and chill. It's a gaslighting maneuver that allows them to minimize the harm they are doing and painting you as sensitive and humorless.

Is he not allowed to post about singleness because he's in a relationship now? Then it became a conversation about objectifying women. Oh Am, I not allowed to follow Instagram models? Does that mean I can't watch porn? Does that mean I can't go to strip clubs? Like? Where do you draw the line on what I'm allowed to do? Essentially, he was actually at one point like demanding, so what do you want me to do? Because I want you to feel secure in this relationship. But what do you

want me to do? Do you want me to not follow these people? Do you not want me to post about women or post about singleness or post about sex? And again he said like something along the lines of comedians post about sex all the time and they're married. I remember saying, well, are you a comedian? I don't even know who you are, Like you know, because it just felt like he kept changing. So when he made his suggestions for what he should do, I was like,

I don't know. At one point he told me I needed to talk to my therapist about how I feel about the objectification of women. He also told me that I made him feel uncomfortable because I made faces at him at times where he talked about me wearing clothing

that showed more skin. I wanted to have a conversation about how we communicate and conflict, and that kind of showed me that there was no accountability because I specify, let's have some moment of introspection about how we're communicating in these moments where we're not agreeing on things, and he kind of like prides himself on being impatient, so that was like the one thing that he brought up

in his introspection. The other introspection was that he is always willing to do things to make other people happy, and so he felt like this was an other situation where he's now forfeiting his happiness and his identity and his authenticity to make me happy, which obviously I didn't feel great about. And I even suggested not following him so that he can be his authentic self online, and he did not like that. He then also mentioned that I engage with some of his friends posts more than

I engaged his, and that was problematic to him. And obviously he had an issue that I didn't share posts about him or post him or post videos with him. So again, it's like you said that this I can't win. If I let you be your authentic self and post whatever you want and not follow you, that's not okay. But if you don't post these things, then that's also not okay because you're not being allowed to be I'm

being controlling. So that's kind of when I realized this has got to end, because I just I didn't see the behavior changing, or I didn't see the behavior changing soon enough for me to not be injured more times than I already was, and yeah, that just became a series of conversations about this is what I'm experiencing when we're having these conversations. I am seeing gaslighting, I am saying,

I am seeing blame shifting, I am seeing projection. I remember thinking at times in our relationship that I was too much and not enough. It's a brilliant characterization that idea have too much and not enough, And unfortunately too much is not a positive thing, right, it's too much your extra is you talk about this whole thing with him wanting to post these pictures about single hood even though he's not. I want to post about these attractive

women online, on and on and on. The one thing I didn't hear in the conversation from him is a shred of empathy. Yeah, all I'm hearing him saying is what's the rule? What's this? What's the d that? But at no point am I hearing that this guy is asking you how are you feeling? How do you feel a about this? Because it is humiliating, it is degrading, it's valuing, it is invalidating. It is as though I am running a different life online than with you, and I expect you to be okay with it, but he

makes it. And this is very common in these kinds of relationships. Tell me the rules, Tell me the rules. Tell me the rules, with absolutely no regard of how might another person feel about this. This manipulation is actually at a very high level. If you ask me to do these things, not post this and all of that, you're in essence telling me to not be my authentic self, which for someone like you who does have empathy, nobody who loves somebody would ever want to say to them, well,

I don't actually want you to be yourself. But what this fool is saying is myself is to act like a a jerk online that objectifies women, that is posturing and tending to be a single guy in social media while I'm going to be in a relationship with you outside of that space, and because you both had the sort of interesting understanding that you weren't going to post

about your relationship online. And I have to say, this particular disconnect is something I'm seeing a lot of people struggle with these days, is wanting to pretend to be single online for their brand. And I'm like, yo, if this is how you're playing, this is not a relationship, because the idea of a healthy human being is that you live as a whole person. You know that you don't have to put one identity here and one identity there. Like you are either in in it with someone or

you're not. You're either respecting and empathizing with them or you're not. And I think that this idea of behavioral accountability is not something that this person would do. But it sounds like this was it at this point. The amount of manipulation, the amount of in an approach, avoidance, double bind, gas lighting, lack of empathy, all of it has sort of reached ahead for you. How were you physically feeling it? Like, how did this affect you in

your mind, in your body? Because this is a lot, And you know what's so hard is in a way he's kind of arguing in a loyally way. This is something that people with these personalities do all the time. They argue like attorneys, right, And that's all very interesting in a court of law, it has no place in a relationship, none whatsoever, Because in a court of law

there's no accounting for feeling or empathy or compassion. Okay, But in a relationship, that's all that matters, So he would do all this loyally, kind of trying to break you down. And it's exhausting if you actually have feelings, very exhausting. So how were you feeling psychologically and physically as this as at this point, this thing has gotten so toxic. Yeah, like you said, I was very exhausted. And I remember, even throughout the relationship, constantly saying in

their people, is this supposed to be this hard? Like? You know, like I know that you know, I don't have as much experience with relationships when I'm like, is it supposed to be this hard? Like I'm tired, Like this is really exhausting. And I do recall between my last annual physical and the end of that relationship, I had gone to the doctor for so many things g I issues strapped. Towards the end of the relationship, I got struck for the first time ever and it was

resistant to the first round of antibiotic. I lost weight. But I had also had just started my medication journey for a d h D, and so I was just attributing it to the medication. But there was a season where I took a break from a d h D met so that I could regain weight, and I was still I'm under weight right now, I broke out in hives random at once. Everything that I use on my body has no fragrance. I don't use dryer sheets like,

so I'm like, why am I breaking out? Like I don't understand, And looking back, I realized that was my body being like but like it almost became a running joke at my doctor's office, like I went to the doctor so many times. So yeah, definitely exhausted emotionally, physically, very sad of course, just recognizing that this relationship is

probably not gonna work. And still, you know, before I went completely no contact, I'm still thinking, like, this person cares about me, this person loves me, you know, to the end, He's like he ordered food, Like after we broke up, he ordered door Dash for me to make sure I was eating. He's telling me he loves me, misses me. But he's also this is where I started

seeing him play the victim more. I feel like that I have to be this different, better healed version of myself in order to be essentially good enough for you. And I want you to have what you want and what you need. You don't have to change, though, I think you're perfect the way you are. I later found out the narrative that he's been feeding to other people after the breakup was that I dumped him and he doesn't know why. We were supposed to go to Mexico

A couple of weeks later for birthday. He was actively looking for my replacement while telling me he missed me, and not just a random but like a girlfriend replacement. It was just very confusing because I'm like, why this person is telling me they don't want to hurt me, but they are very unwilling to acknowledge that they're hurting me. I remember crying and just being like, please, can you understand like how you're hurting me? And he was just lip.

It was just like there was nothing. If I ever said anything like gaslighting, he would just go like cold. It's almost like he cannot accept that he's doing anything wrong because it doesn't fit with the person he wants to be, and cuts to see himself as I just remember saying, this is too familiar. What just happened in my body too familiar. I have to go. He noticed that and he actually tried to clean up after that moment.

He's like no, no, no, but I want you to know that I understand what you're saying and up, but like, yeah, just it's been a lot to process. When I decided to go no contact is because we met up after the breakup. We had gone out to eat. We wanted to discuss if we wanted to still do Mexico because we still had fun even though times were hard, and

he embarrassed me in front of a bakery. Essentially, a young lady mentioned that we looked que and she wanted to call her husband because we were such a vibe, and he announced to the bakery that she just broke up with me. And that's when I was like, oh, Mexico can't happen, because you're really unpredictable right now, and you are just grasping, like this is wild, Like you're not telling them why we broke up, you know, you're telling a bunch of random people. He laughed in my

face when I told him it was embarrassing. He hadn't told any of his friends. In fact, I found out later the one friend he supposedly told, he actually told her that I asked for space and he was helping me get back together. So it was definitely a lot of like the post breakup stuff, but just constant anxiety every single day, the grief of knowing that even the

good moments were really just manipulation. You know, the self blame as out of this world, because I can pinpoint moments where I was like, that's odd, or he didn't really show empathy towards his friend in that situation. Is he going to be like that with me? Do you feel more anxious or do you feel more resolved? And why is that not happening in this relationship? Do you

know what I mean? And so I have to give credit to the healthy relationships in my life I'm very grateful for because I could compare and saying, Okay, I don't feel this way around these people. This is unique. This person is increasing my anxiety, like and no one's responsible for removing my anxious feelings, of course. But if I'm with someone and I'm becoming more anxious because I'm

around that person, like, that's probably telling. Even if you express the real need or any real feedback of feeling, it would be you think I'm a monster. Right, So all these things block any form of conversation. But at the end of it, though the relationship ends, you know, you recognized it had reached its limit, and you did that less than a year, which is actually a good thing because you can see how people can get really confused in these relationships and keep going around and around. Well,

maybe I should try this. Maybe I didn't say this right, Maybe I'll try it this way. You keep chasing and chasing. Ultimately you hit your wall, and it sounds like did you ended? Did he ended? Did you mutually ended? They're actually moments where I'm not even sure, you're not even sure it's done. Yeah, I you know, I was the one who prompted the ending of it, okay, and so then you ended it. And then you did meet him again one last time, you know, in that sense of right,

maybe we could still have this trip. We started as friends, Maybe we could end as friends. Right. There is the crux of the issue. These personality styles do not change. This is the behavior. And I'll tell you, had you stayed another five years, ten years, twenty years, would have

been the same patterns. You know, And I think the grief is for somebody who stays one year is actually a nice amount of time, because one year is almost like, okay, I didn't buther that much time into it, and it takes about that long to get enough data to know it probably won't change, and to clearly see all of the toxic patterns repeatedly enough so you don't doubt yourself when you decide to get out. Obviously, shorter is better, but a year is kind of expected in these kinds

of relationship. But the people who do, say five, ten, fifteen years, will often say, shoot, you know, this was so clearly a pattern two years and three years, and and now I've put a lot of time into it, and then that was that. So you went no contact, which it's a strategy response that's not available to a lot of folks coming out of these relationships, especially if they have sort of shared children, shared business, and even

shared friends. Can make it hard, right, And I'm sure that's not always easy because you do have mutual you know, people who know each other. But many people will say, if you can go no contact, it really is you you describe something different. Initially, you were flooded by a

recognition of everything you had just gone through. And I'm glad you put it that way, because that initial flood actually can overwhelm you, because if you keep having contact with them, they keep coming up with their usual rationalizations, and it stops the flood, right because now they're giving you another explanation, and it almost allows you to soften it. But if you go no contact, it's a bit of a tidal wave that comes over you where you're saying, oh,

what the heck just happened? And you do you feel not only do you ruminate, but you feel anxious. It's not like I went no contact and I felt better overnight. If anything, you go no contact and now your brain and your body and your mind and your psyche have a minute to say without anything blocking it everything that happened. So how have you been doing now you've been no contact for a little while, how are you feeling out? Do you feel like the hyper vigilance has improved or

any of your fears are are baiting? Or where are you at? I definitely feel a lot better. So when we last spoke, that was about a month, and and that was actually around the time where I started to see like a turning point with the anxiety. So there are moments where I'm like good, and then there's things that happened that I'm just like, when is this going

to be over? But I have a second therapist now who specializes in a m d R. I've read way too many books about narcissism and recovering from narcissistic abuse. I'm part of a support group on Facebook which has been really helpful. I'm going to be talking to an i p A counselor soon Intimate partner abuse counselor SIN just to It took me a while to actually accept the fact that I was essentially in an abusive relationship. Like I could say it, but it didn't really connect.

So yeah, just kind of navigating all of the different emotions and letting the emotions come as they come and feeling them. I started kind of exploring that relationship, but Okay, what do I need to go to that to like or went to a gym and use like their whirlpool or a steam room, went to get a massage, Like just trying to like make sure that I'm listening to myself deon what I mean, because I feel I didn't

do that. You know, even though I spoke up in the relationship and I challenge my ex and I think that's part of why I was able to see something so glaringly, I still did not listen to myself for a long time, and so just making sure that I'm doing that has been very big. And trying to be patient because I want to be okay like tomorrow or yesterday, but I know it's going to take some time, and I don't know how long. I do not trust men

right now at all. I've had people come to me and they're like, wow, I got a lot to think about with regard to what I'm going through right now, or I've gone through this as well, and so that's that's been very All of that's been very healing. So I think it's just a matter of time now because I feel like I'm doing a lot of things. I don't know. It's great it is that you are doing a lot of things, and I think that's what healing is about, is doing all of those things. It's not

just a singular path. I cannot thank you enough for the generosity of your time, of your story, of you know, of letting people know that no matter how you set the boundaries, somehow person wants to find their way in they will. And for us to learn about ourselves, trust ourselves, and again ultimately find that safety in ourselves. So thank you so much. I'm very grateful to you for your time. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Here are my takeaways

from Shalla's story. First, whether you know someone well or not, always be a little wary when you enter a relationship at a transitional time of your life, after a breakup, moving to a new city, or moving back from time away, or starting a new job. At those times, we are often seeking stability, safety, consistency, and just something to help us feel better or have something to look forward to.

Shalla admits that she was at a transition snal time despite them being friends when they entered the relationship, and she was seeking a soft place to land, which made the relationship attractive. But the comfort can sometimes block us from seeing red flags. Conditional love is a standard feature of all toxic and narcissistic relationships. These are often very transactional relationships where love feels like it needs to be earned.

People who grew up with conditional love, and this is often something that happens with distracted, ecocentric or narcissistic parents, is that we feel as though we need to earn their love or jump through hoops to even be seen. Without even noticing it, we may find ourselves sliding into conditional cycles and feeling we have to perform or do what the other person wants to be loved. This is the core of the trauma bond, so be aware of

this pernicious cycle. Love in the age of social media makes for a really difficult landscape, and in a narcissistic relationship, it can feel impossible that idea of maintaining different identities to get validation. For example, as in her story, her partner sort of pretending to be single on social media is very uncomfortable and hurtful in a relationship. In addition, it is often the touchpoint of so many arguments why didn't you like my post? Why do you like more

of my friends posts? And it's also a space where people may feel disrespected or that they are in an alternate universe with their partner. Navigating this mess with a narcissistic person is not easy. It really comes down to how they use social media or if they have it at all. If they're using it for validation, then anything that you do it seems to threaten that water spigot

of admiration is going to cause a fight. Realistic expectations are necessary, and if it's early enough in the relationship and this keeps becoming an argument. Reflect on the fact that this person's virtual world is more important than your real life feelings and go from there. I recommend to every client I work with who is in or recently got out of a narcissistic relationship to get a physical exam if they haven't had one in a while. The

stress of these relationships literally do make us sick. Headaches, muscle aches, difficulty sleeping, hair loss, and gastro intestinal issues are not uncommon, and if you have an existing health condition, the unremitting stress of a toxic relationship can exacerbate your symptoms. At a minimum, you want to rule out that your health symptoms are not symptoms of something more severe, because many folks and narcissistic relationships, not surprisingly, don't take very

good care of their health. While your healthcare provider can't surgically remove this relationship from your life, at least ensure that you stay on top of any health changes and symptoms and work with them on stress management techniques that may help with your health. And if you can disengage in distance from this relationship, all the better. A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valan Jethrow,

Ellen Rakaton and Dr rominey der Vassila. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Mara Dela Rosa and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnaghe and Calvin Bailiff