Surviving Dirty John w/ Debra Newell Pt. 1

The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, High Heart Media, or their employees. How am I allowing myself to jump into these relationships without clearly looking at who

the person is? But they're con man, They're charming there, you know, And and I guess also, when your love bombed that dopamine level, that Sarahtonin level, you have a high and you're all excited about it and it feels good. And I'm such a person from the heart. The story of Dirty John maybe the template for a narcissistic relationship. Deborah Newell's relationship and brief marriage with John Mihan was chronicled in a series and podcast from the Los Angeles Times,

and a dramatize series on Bravo and then Netflix. In Deborah Story, we will hear it all, love bombing, red flags, control, gas lighting, manipulation, and the ways that trauma and backstories can shape our expectations and our discernment. For years, Deborah wasn't permitted to tell her side of the story. Instead, her story was told as a con man who goes

after a naive woman. The truth is quite different. This is Deborah Story, the story of the survivor, and instead of once again focusing on the fascination with the con this is meant to be an exploration of the inner experience of a survivor. It's a story about systems that aren't designed to protect people from narcissists and predators. Finally, after years of making the story about Dirty John, the world gets to hear the story of Deborah. Welcome Deborah.

It's so nice to finally see you live again. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. Deborah. Here's the thing, the story of Dirty John, once we really take it, it's actually it's really the story of Debora Knewell. Yes, and perhaps maybe that's the shift that has to start right way. We've made it so much about him on this podcast, it's going to be the story of you. We have to start putting the focus

on the survivors. Yes, I so agree. Unfortunately, though, to tell the story of you, we've got to give some backstory here, So I'd like to go back. Your story is such an interesting one because so many people have heard about your relationship. In many ways, it's almost become like a terminology for anyone who's in a toxic agtion or you met a guy sounds like a dirty John. It's literally become that. Your relationship with John I think I can honestly say maybe one of the most dissected

relationships and history at this point. I agree. But as I said, we're not hearing the survivor's story, and so that's why you're here, because I want everyone to hear from you the story of you, you as a survivor. Thank you. So let's start even before your relationship. What was your past experience in relationships prior to eating job. You know, it's so interesting. I was a pleaser my

whole life. I was always trying to make people happy or trying to help them and so I think, I literally that's who I am, and that was my role was to help people or just to be happy and make people, you know, feel good about themselves. And so I think it goes all the way back to the to that point in my life. But I was also raised by a mom, incredible mom, but being raised in a very traditional family with dad being the the one that really worked, you know, a lot, and a very

religious home. My mom taught us to be submissive to men and to make them happy, make them a priority, and you know, that's her generation, that's where she comes from. And luckily my dad was a great guy, and that's I saw around me were great men. So I thought all men are great. So as I get into my first relationship, I get married at yeah, really young, and I thought, that's what you're supposed to do, date and

then get married and live happily. Ever after. Little did I know when he yelled at me a few times, I thought, what are you doing? Because my parents had never had an argument in front of me, And I said, what are you doing? Why are you yelling at me? And he said, what do you mean? So what I realized at that point is I had no idea about men because I had been raised by this almost perfect man, as close to perfect as you can get. He idolized my mom, he had her on a pedestal. They had

this loving relationship. He adored his kids. We had eighteen foster kids live with us, So my kids were all about love and kindness some and being the best that you can be. So you go out into the world and you have no idea what's out there. This has come up with some other folks we've talked with on this podcast, and here you are once again bringing up this theme. We want to believe that people who end up in ultimately as abusive a relationship as you did.

You know that that's told in the Dorney John story, but even before that, some of the other relationships you had been in the easy story is she had a she's she has daddy issues. Right, If you had daddy issues married a really sweet guy, right, right, So that idea that it would be so protective if you had this sort of really you know, loving father actually in a way and this is again I've seen this over

and over. It almost leaves you making an assumption that isn't true, which is, well, all men must be nice, and it's an interesting kind of a sort of a setup. And then those true to sational roles can be a little bit tricky because then you again, you're you're really quite powerhouse businesswoman and an entrepreneur yourself. Now, so even that takes you off of that track. What I think is so important to this a story like yours is

that it already defies that first stereotype. So she must have had a terrible dad, and so she was just trying to recreate that not at all. So I'm going to take us a little out of order here just because you brought it up. And while some people may know this, not all may and you just said it. I know this that your sister was murdered. Yes, do you feel comfortable sharing about that? Of course? Can you tell us what happened, because that's an incredibly traumatic thing

to have happened. Well, I had a beautiful sister and intelligent, I mean, she had it all, and she married her high school sweetheart. And during the years that she was married, because we came from such a great home, we didn't know there was abuse. I had no idea. We saw her unhappy at times, but we had no idea of the abuse. We did see some control issues. He didn't like her in a bathing suit, she had scrgeous figure. He didn't like her going to the gym with me.

He would sit out front. So obviously there were red flags. I'm looking at it, My parents are looking at it as oh, he loves her so much. So while this isn't deborah story, it's Deborah's family story, and a universal error made by so many when it comes to controlling and obsessive partners is conflating control and obsession with love. Telling a person what to wear sitting in a car outside a gym or anywhere. That's not love or even intense interest. It's control and almost inevitably ends up in

isolation and abuse. So, despite how loving Deborah's family was, there is a Dane jury in families that see everything through the lenses of beneficence and trust and goodness, Because not only was this a dangerous set up for her sister, it was also a dangerous set up for her. We weren't looking that those are red flags. Anyway. She was married, I believe thirteen years a long time, and at one point she decided to leave. And when she left, she moved in with me and she was going to be

my assistant. My design firm was taking off, and she said, I want to go pack up my house. They had been separated, I'm going to say a month somewhere around there, and she was dating someone famous, and so Billy was following them around, and little did we know he was pretty possessive and pretty upset about what was going on. Anyway, she went home to pack up the house. They had sold the home, let hers and go to his last

day of school in the area. But Billy had told the eleven year old Chad to go to Grandma's house that day. He had also called me that morning and said, I've got this all under control. And I'm thinking to myself, why do you have under control? I don't get what's going on. Well, anyway, when she didn't come home to my house that day, I get a call from my mom and my mom said, honey, Cindy's dad. All I

remember is falling to the floor. I remember I was peeling a carrot and I just dropped everything and I was crying, and I said, what in the world happened? And she said, Billy shot her and killed her. You know, we were supposed to forgive and move on. I shouldn't say that I didn't forgive. I just needed answers. I needed to understand what in the world had happened why, because it changed everything in our life. Those poor boys.

She had a five and eleven year old, went to live with my mom and dad, and they were told to forgive and move on. And I couldn't accept that. I thought, everyone needs therapy, everyone needs to figure out what's going on here. This man needs to be put behind bars for years. Well he wasn't I know. He went to prison for three and a half years. Anyway, about ten years, I finally decide I'm going to look into this because it was a rippling effect on our family.

You know, everything changed along with the boys were having issues, and nobody was willing to get them therapy. So I took in. At times, I took in both boys, but at this particular time, I took in the youngest boy and I wanted to put him in therapy, and everyone was so against it, and I thought, don't you get it. This is such a deep seated issue. It changed their life. I cannot think of anything more traumatic than to lose

a parent who is killed by the other parents. So for ex period of time the father was incarcerated, they had neither of their parents and forever had to live with knowing father killed him. I personally can't think of them anything much more deeply profound in terms of loss for a child. It's unbelievable. It is a couple of things here. I am a believer Deborah, that almost without exception,

there's no absolutes when it comes to human behavior. But I'm going pretty close to nine and I present on this one that almost all domestic abusers, whether that be emotional abuse, physical abuse, all domestic abusers are narcissistic. That complete utter lack of empathy, entitlement, need for dominance, power, control, that's narcissism. Okay, Billy, and I've had I've had the pleasure of reading your book, so I know some of this story too. I just I wanted our listeners to hear.

This story is that Billy had been incredibly emotionally abusive to her the entire course of the relationship. The entire course, I believe. So the reason I'm bringing this up is that there's in your family already another story of narcissistic abuse. Happening with an absolutely tragic consequence. Right, here's the part I'm getting stuck on because I and I've gotten stuck on this before, and I think it's almost like I just have to talk to you about it. Is the

forgiveness peace. We're sitting here talking and I literally almost have a stomach ache when I'm thinking about this idea of forgiving. This is not my family, and I don't forgive this. How talk to me about forgiveness because this is such a sore any issue for survivors of narcissistic abuse. I can't get my head around it. I know a lot of folks listening to this cancer. Can you help

us understand this? I think when you're raised in a home that believes that forgiveness is no matter what, Wow, it's sort of brainwashed and that's what you're supposed to do. I didn't give him, obviously for a long time, and I was the one in the family. I don't think my brother did either. I felt like I had to

move forward so that it didn't eat me up. But as far as how I felt about him, I couldn't be around him, and I chose not to go to birthday parties or or events that he was going to be at, because I do not believe that he should have been forgiven by my parents. And then the boys are so I don't know how to put it, but the boys are so mixed up? What to do? There's this love hate? Were the boys? I can see something quite different. This is their father developmentally, it impacted them

in a different way. That's a different conversation, But I think I was struck in the story how quickly your mother forgave him, pretty much in the hospital within a day of him shooting your sister, killing your sister, Your mom was forgiving him. My mom is probably the sweetest woman you'll ever meet, and obvious it worked for her

in many ways. It did not work for me. I also felt my dad got cancer a year later, and I really felt part of it was that he was in so much pain and had to be the good guy and the Christian man that it ate him up. I could not agree with you more. How do you think so growing up in a family where I mean, this is a level of forgiveness, I am not even accustomed to hearing a right like this leveled up forgiveness, right, no matter what, no matter what, is perpeture. There can

be nothing worse than having your child killed. Of all the things you can listen out in the world, having your child killed. I think if we talked to people on the street would say absolutely not. Okay, you grew up like this. How do you think being raised and indoctrinated into this forgiveness no matter what? How do you think that if affected you in terms of how you went through relationships, how you saw a person's abusive or or bad behavior in a relationship, and even all the

way up to your relationship with John. How do you think that culture forgiveness you grew up in may have actually harmed you in your own adult relationships? Oh, in so many ways you have no idea. Can you talk to us about that. Yes, a lot of the men that I've dated, I always gave them the benefit of the doubt. I always say, for most dangerous words in the English language, right, And they would do something wrong and I would forgive them. Yet I think as I,

and there's a lot that goes into this. But you know, obviously I have a very strong belief in God, so it never changed my belief in God. It was just that I didn't believe the same way they did. I believe that forgiveness is a process and not everyone really deserves it. I know this is terrible to say, but I don't feel everyone deserves it, especially if they're not remorseful over it. Did Reilly have remorse? No, so you

don't have none? Yeah. I have rarely seen someone shift and dodged through a remorseless homicide with such a light sentence and was forgiven to boot so he didn't have remorse. He only got a three year sentence. Well, first of all, he got a seven year sentence, but he got out in three and a half years for good behavior, and he took the boys back, which I was so against. I figured a very unhealthy adult does not raise healthy children.

It's a really important subtext of this story, though, because forgiveness is such a challenging space for survivors of narcissistic abuse of any kind, and a lot of folks struggle because they're like, how do I reconcile being a person who believes in God, who cares deeply about religion? You know, my it to has always been God can forgive, but you don't have to, you know, sort of outsource that job to God. That's not for you, and you you'll come to that when you do, and if you don't.

If God forgives everyone, then God will forgive you too for not forgiving. So it's it's a very complicated space. But the challenge eyed I hear from you, though, is that you did have more than one toxic relationship as an adult. You forgave them, and in a way, it was almost permission for them to continue behaving badly because they must have known. While she's going to just keep forgiving me. Well, I don't share this in my book, but my first husband left me when I was pregnant

and he's he's ended up being a great guy. Don't get me wrong. That's why I don't really talk about that much great relationship with my kids. We were young. You're married, Yeah, so we were extremely young, and he has had so much guilt over what he did, so he is actually a good guy. I know people say, how could it be a good guy. Well, he ended up being a pretty decent dad, and that's what I cared about. Person could be a decent dad and a

good guy, but maybe not your person. But I just want people to keep in mind this this forgiveness theme is so important. So then there's another piece I want to ask you about, and this is something I did not know about you, and it really rounded out your story. Again, only talk about this if you feel comfortable, because it may not be an easy thing to talk about. I had no idea about you being a survivor of assault and stalking. It was an absolutely chilling story. Do you

feel comfortable sharing that the story of that experience? You know, I'm such an open book. I feel if if my story helps someone, it's it's worth it. You were so young and I read that portion of your book and I was scared. I was reading at night, and it was almost like one of the things where I got up and was checking windows. It scared me that much. I can't imagine when you think of how young that is. You've had children, to have a daughter that age going

to I it just it was absolutely chilling. So could you share that story because I think people need to understand your backstory if they're going to understand the story of your relationship with John. When I was I think eighteen years old, I was working hard and going to college and I came home one night and my window was open, and I thought, that's odd. I didn't leave my window open anyway. Pretty soon I realized somebody was

stalking me. I would get the phone calls back then there weren't cell phones, and I would get the phone call at my home, your home, I see what you have on I saw you today. And then they would call and say, I saw what you wore last night to bed. And then they started taking underwear in different garments. They'd actually come into your home. They start Yes, I had a private investigator on the case. They could not

catch him. He was at one point calling from a pay phone not too far away from where I lived, but they did not catch them. I was so paranoid to the point where I thought somebody was constantly following me. Girl, that's not paranoid, that's just being like, yeah, that's just a fact I was breaking your house, stealing undergarments and other items, knowing what you were wearing. Not paranoid, just smart wise. So I chose to move. And when I moved out, I moved in with my sister and her husband,

and it was fall in about a month. Month and a half had gone by at this point, and I came home before anyone else, and I think it was five thirty and it was already dark out. And I walked into my room and a man grabs me, grabs me around my waist and puts a knife to my throat, and he said lay down, and I went to lay down on the bed. I wasn't fighting him, I was I figured it was my life if I didn't, So I went to lay down on the bed and right in and there the door opens and it's Billy. There's

an irony of my goodness. Yeah, it speaks how complicated the stories in your life. Anyway, the guy ran off. We did not catch him, but it was he didn't rate me, but obviously I was in fear of my life. I actually, shortly after that moved back home and stayed with my parents for a short while, and then I met my first husband. I mean, such a traumatic experience

to frame that. To have been stalked, have your home repeatedly broken into, deal with these phone calls, be assaulted, believe you were going to die, and just by happenstance right somebody walks into the room. How ironically would then go on to kill your sister. So even as you play that story back, this is where trauma is funny. It's not just that moment. In the years to come,

you would think about that story. Billy came in saying that traumatic p it's just it's sort of it takes on its own story, and the brain takes it on too. And and did they ever catch the person? My goodness, So your life not only has had these experiences of trauma, but making that so much worse were these two massive miscarriages of justice. A person who assaults you doesn't get caught. The person who murders your sister gets a very short

prison sentence. So those two seems as a foreshadowing to what was going to happen, while the part with you having a great dad and sort of a very loving family life is in market contrast now to what would slowly become your adult life. We will be right back with this conversation. So now let's leap forward, okay, because you then establish yourself. You got married, you had kids, you got divorced, but you do have kids. Were you

married more than once? Yes? How many times? I hate to say this, but in all five because I kept making mistakes, jumping in thinking they're a great guy, thinking they're going to be a great dad to the kids, or just a good human being. And I'm going to have this fairy tale. So you believed in fairy tales? I did. How were you able to believe in fairy tales after all the really difficult things that happened in your life. I have no idea because that's what that's

what is amazing to me. And by the way, don't I'm gonna tell you now, Debra, I'm gonna call you out. Don't shame yourself from being married five times. You've been married five times. Don't hate to say it. It's your history, it's your life. Well, I mean, wouldn't it be great to meet the right man and be married the rest of your life? But you know what, life happens. Life happens.

And I actually think that the more compelling mayor five times, five times, whatever, the thing that jumps out to me that you still believe in fairy tales, I do obviously. Now it's scared. I'm very let's put it this way. I see red flags right away. Sure, yeah, I mean I think that what we need to do is like maybe start putting the fairy tale person into a very red dress. Sony four Alas that having a red lapel, because yet despite all that happens, you you were married

five times. It's a tough one. We're raised on being swept off our feet. Can you imagine a Disney princess sitting down and making a pro and con list. Wasn't that right? It was a lot of being swept away, not a lot of logic. And so we we're socialized, you know, to to either be sweepers or to be swept off our feet, one or the other. Now we

fast forward into John. Okay, so people would say, and I'm gonna I'm gonna one of the things that that studying all the material, reading your book, watching, listening, reading all of that, is that, well, how come she didn't figure it out? Right? They're like cards, been married more times? Why didn't she figured out? That's the criticism that is Okay,

So I don't love the criticism. I'm going to tell you because I really do feel it's saying, let's blame her because that there's abusive people in the world, right, because I really do believe that you to say why didn't you pick better? Is still moving the lens onto you rather than that, why are these people abusing people?

But let's play to the critics for a minute. Okay, what do you think was happening that, especially those three relationships, and then obviously it culminated in the biggest con of all. What was happening for you that that you were repeatedly seeing this and where people are saying, how did you make this? How did you pick this guy after going through these other relationships? You know, I've analyzed it to death. What I see is I was raised by this great dad,

and I wanted that. I wanted love. I wanted somebody just think I'm wonderful. I wanted someone to love my kids, and I wanted to be married the rest of my life. And I think that I didn't see red flags because I was not raised to even look at that, and yes, to keep going through it over and over again. I think I had hope, you know, I had this this hope that there really is a great guy out there and that I was finally meeting them. I wasn't looking

at red flags. I honestly didn't even know red flags. Yeah, and not to me that should be taught. I think it was way alongside multiplication tables that you know that people are not taught red flags or often are. I mean, you were raising a very traditional home, so it may very well have been. Well, you just need to submit to the will of this person. Yes, So how are you going to see red flags? You're too focused on submitting and putting your head down. How could you look

up and see those red flags? But the not seeing the red flags and wanting to believe? You know, hope is a four letter word when it comes to our assistic relationships, that's for sure, because it's the hope and I want this to be the thing I want. I wanted to be a big love story, and so you might even force those pieces to fit. Well, they did two nice things. Well ignore the hundred bad things they did. They did two nice things. What was your mindset at

the time you met John. You've gone through three very difficult relationships, You've had a history of trauma, and you're eighteen. And while that was a while ago, it definitely shapes the life you had the the cataclysmic loss of your sister. You had a loving family, but some really complicated messaging around forgiveness. You have four kids. All of that together, it's a very complex too. How did you get to the place where you met John, and what was it

like in the beginning. So one of the reasons I dated John had to do with my kids were raised. They were all off on their own, and I was going home to an empty house. I would work all day. I had great success in my business to where you think, why can't you have success in love? And I remember going home one day and my daughter Jacqueline said she'd come over that night, and she goes, oh, you're alone again.

I go, yeah, it's okay, let's sign you up. So her friend, her best friend, bern Abby, and Jacqueline wrote a profile and I thought, oh, I don't know if I want to do this. I've gotten pretty content in some ways. I don't like coming home alone, but you know, I've got a full life. And they said, well, let's just try it out. So they signed me up for a dating website. We went through the profiles and I

think I narrowed it down to five. First guy, no chemistry, Second guy, something's happened, Third guy, no chemistry, fourth guy nice guy again no chemistry. So I thought, okay, this isn't for me. Chemistry is actually a very challenging and even dangerous word when it comes to relationships, even though everyone has been taught to look for it. Chemistry is

this sort of unnamed, indescribable thing. Unlike things that are clear and necessary for a healthy relationship, things like kindness, respect, compassion, patience, chemistry is far less concrete, and that is why it is a problem. Because often chemistry reflects familiarity or a distorted internalized societal message around what constitutes strength or safety or connection or even a chance of working through a past unresolved conflict. But because chemistry is so ephemeral, so hazy,

it can take people to tricky or dangerous places. And so I looked at my daughter. I said, I'm not going to do it well anyway. Right as I'm thinking, I'm going to go off this site up Pops John, and I thought, oh m, he's got two grown girls, he has a dog, he's in the medical field, he's nice looking, seems intelligent. Everything he was saying in his profile, I checked off my boxes went to church. Anyway. I looked at and I thought, oh, this isn't so bad.

Maybe I'll try one more time. So I contemplated whether I was going to do it or not, and I thought, I'm gonna try what what the heck? So we're talking, you know, we're texting back and forth, and he finally says, hey, can I have your number? And I'm thinking, okay, is in the medical field. I'm so far. Everything that I'm hearing from him sounds good. He's asking questions. It's not all about him. It's a two way conversation, shan. So I think, okay. So I give him my number and

he calls. When he was talking, there was some arrogance, but I thought, uh, you know, good looking professional. You know, I'll ignore it. Okay, did you know arrogance was a red flag? No? I did not at the time. Everyone arrogance is a red flag. It really is. You know,

I think this whole idea of cocky is a good thing. No, I'm I really want to make cocky not texy anymore because it's just not and and I really arrogance is a red flag and it should and people say, but they have the goods, they have the goods, and they shouldn't have to talk about him. Right. The other thing that I didn't know was a red flag was charming. Oh, big,

red flag. Charming is a red flag. Everyone, So you're just stacking him up here, right, Okay, Charming and arrogant actually is like four stars get out like that, you know, I mutin, we're five star run right. So you've got charming, you've got arrogant. Where arrogance didn't register as a red flag, there were other things about him that were attractive. So

you meet. Yes, So where I lived at this point was in a penthouse, and I've had Jacqueline there so that she could meet him, and so I wasn't alone. So anyway, he comes up and I'm not quite ready, he's a little early. She lets him in. There are things that he said to her. Keep in mind, my daughter didn't like anyone. I mean, I hate to say this, never giving your track record. Yes, I'm kind of thinking she might be really good at this red flag She's

become really good at because of me. So anyway, what ends up happening is he's there. He's in a button down shirt with shorts and tennis shoes. He looked like a college boy to me, like crappy college they portray him in the series is very sloppy. He wasn't sloppy, but he did have a dress shirt with the shorts on. And I said well, let's go over to the restaurant. The conversation went so well that I said, you want to come up for a nightcap and he said sure.

And he's polite, he's not trying to hold my hand. And and one of the dates prior to that, the guy had to sit on the same side as me, touch me. You know, I'm like, get away from me. So I thought, okay, you know, he seems safe, he seems honest, he seems real arrogant, charming. But so I invite him up. I go into the restroom and I remember putting my lipstick on and walking out and glancing

over to my bedroom and thinking, oh, he's on my bed. Hello. Okay, now we just got the like we get ping ping, ping, ping, ping ping, lots of red flags like holy presumptuous. And I looked at him and we had great conversation. We had had the best time. He had one drink, you know, he didn't go overboard. And I'm thinking to myself, he looked like a pretty good guy. So I said, oh, no, no, no, no, get off my bed, and he goes, what do you mean. I go, no, we're gonna We're going into the living room.

We're not we're not staying. That's not who I am. And he looks at me and he said, but it feels so good. I'm thinking to myself, what do you mean it feels good? It's it's a bad He ends up sort of giving me a hard time and getting up abruptly walking out and saying, fine, I'm out of here. And I'm thinking it was such a great date. And then this happens. And so next day I go to work. I look at my oldest daughter who I worked with, and I said, I had a really good date until

the end. I said, I'll never see him again. She said, oh my gosh, mom, you have the worst luck. You have the worst picker. I said, I know, don't I I have the worst picker. So what happened was he ended up calling that day and apologizing, and he said, you know what, I was enjoying every moment. He said, I just didn't want the night to end. Will you please forgive me. I'll never do that again. I will treat you with so much respect. Did he apologize for

what he did? He did. He said, I am sorry for lying on your bed, and yes, okay, yes, he was very aware of what he had done, and the forgiving person that I am, and because we had had such a great date before that, I said, Okay, so I felt I had had a boundary, and when he crossed over it, I forgave him. I should have at that point realized who this man was. It's so easy for me to be sitting here in the studio with you and giving an analysis. I wasn't in the apartment.

I haven't had your life history. But I think what a lot of people don't understand is that sort of boundary testing run an early date and I go up to your apartment, who you graciously invited him up, and he goes and lies on your bed. He tests that boundary, which is its own form of grooming process. How far can I get with her? Will she comes sit on the bed with me? Will she let me kiss her? You set a boundary, something you were proud of and

should have been proud of. Right anyone who can set boundaries, especially when you've had tough histories, and it's really important you did not know though you were in something bigger than that, because now what he was finding out, Okay tested it, calling back apologizing. She's accepting the apology ding ding ding, we have a winner. And now he knew as part of this grooming process, because the grooming process is really sort of testing those waters, figuring out who's vulnerable,

seeing how far you can push. And he now recognized like, oh, I can test and I can apologize, and she's going to give me a chance. What was interesting to me those you did say he got angry, like you rebuffed his advances. Initially you said no, this bad thing is not working for me by and so he didn't get his way. But then as narcissistic people don't like it when they don't get their way. But then he quickly sort of reorganized himself, played the game of apologize, let's

see if this is going to work. And you know, it's almost like a really hard question on a test, sever that a teacher would put on the test knowing that maybe only one or two students would get it right. That was sort of the hard question on the test. A lot of people say, this person genuinely apologized, they took ownership. Now more and more, I think as people

get this, they're like, no, I'm not doing that. But to you, especially given what you came from, that what felt like a sincere apology to you was enough for you to say, Okay, I'll give it another show. I thought, okay, I'll forgive him. He blew it and we'll move on. M So then the relationships unfolding. Okay, did you did your kids like him? My son is the sweetest guy and he just wants mom happy. And he says, well, Mom, if if you like him and he's good to you,

that's what counts. My oldest daughter, she's just too sharp and she's mom. He doesn't look me in the eyes. Yeah, sharp girl, and he's hiding something. I don't know. There's something about him. I don't like my Jacqueline, who has this sixth sense. She looked at me and she can't stand him. So to your kids didn't like him, Yeah, Tara didn't know him yet. She didn't meet him until he was moving in. Well, I take that back. I was moving in, but I had fallen hard for him

at this point. What did you fall for? Well, he left on me. I mean, I have to tell you, I didn't know what that meant obviously until after the fact. But what he did was he would go get me coffee every morning, bring it back, have a rose. That he picked along the way. He would service my cars washom gass m. He would run errands, he would I mean, he did so many things for me the days that he wasn't working, and so I would think to myself, Wow,

what a great guy. And I think one of my love languages is acts of service and affection, and he was extremely affectionate with me. He would hold my hand, he would rub my back a lot, he would take my hair all the time and twist it, and just things that make you feel. When we would fall asleep at night, he would always have to be touching me. So it was things like that that I thought, Wow, this is fantastic what you're describing. A lot of board

they're waiting for you to say. He whisked me off to dinner and of the city hours away, and we stayed in a fancy hotel and he bought me jewelry. He basically saying, got your car washed, And I'm so glad you you presented it that way, because that kind of caregiving, because that's what it feels like, somebody's finding these small details in my life and taking care of them.

I think it's so important for people to understand that love bombing doesn't always look like the big, grand romantic gesture. But sometimes it's just taking care of those things, from putting out the trash to getting the car washed, picking up some flowers on the side of the road. We take we feel taken care of, and that can actually leave I'm not being love bombed. All they're doing is they're driving me to the dentists. That's not love bombing.

And I'll say, well, it depends on how important it is to you, because if it is, then it may very well be. Gifts were not my love language. And interestingly he probably figured that out about you and saw how you responded. Our session will continue after this break. You said what days he didn't and you made air quotes because people can't worked. What did he do when he air quote worked? Well, he told me he was an anenthusiologist. Okay. So he said he was a doctor, yes, okay.

So he would have those scrubs on and go off to work, which is what a doctor would do, right. So I assumed he was going off to work because he'd come back to my house that evening or once he moved in, he would come home and share his day about who he put to sleep and what happened and so on. So he had stories. Because I'm an honest person, I assume he's being honest with me. I didn't think, oh, I've got a check and see where he's working today. And but I didn't see a paycheck, okay,

nor did I ask for rent. I was doing well. I didn't care. I had rented the place that we were now in down on Babo Island, and he did take me to dinner, he did pay her for food, He paid for all the miners, and I should say so, I didn't question it. And when he said that he was putting his money he had a trust for his kids, I thought, that's wonderful. I'm really happy that you take

such good care of your kids. And so I didn't really say anything for the first four months, and then well, I'm going to go back for a minute, went back to November. Mid November and Tara came to help me move in to yes And when Tara helped me, she had come out from Vegas with her boyfriend. She said, I don't like him, and I thought, really, I don't get it. She was I don't like him, and I'm like, how does she not like him? And I just kept thinking, Oh,

you know what, he's so good to me. My kids are going to see this, and they're gonna like him. It's just gonna a matter of time. And what happened was we had gone and it was such a minor in my eyes at the time, but we had gone to dinner, and when we were getting out, I was driving, he was in the passenger seat. Tara was in the back seat with her boyfriend. And we got out, I started walking to the restaurant. I guess she was locked

in the car for a couple of seconds. I figured the child lock was on because I had my grandkids at times, and so I thought nothing of it. But to her that was a really big deal that he wasn't I guess, paying attention and treating her like a guest and so on, so and it was just a matter of seconds, but that really bothered her. So anyway,

ended up going into the restaurant. But I noticed with John, he wasn't I think, when you're dating someone, you really want to get to know that person's kids, you really and you want to be a little bit of beyond your best behavior. And I wasn't noticing him really going out of his way, and I thought, huh, these are my children. You know, I love my kids more than anything.

I'm a little bit surprised by this. Anyway, got home, Tara went into my bedroom and saw that John had three pieces of clothing and his toothbrush and a few other toilet trees there, and she flipped out. Why did she flip out? Because she thought, how dare he be staying with me? Oh? She and it was this very it was early in the relationship. But she was bothered that he was staying with you regularly enough that he had some items. Why do you think that was? Why?

Why do you think she was so bothered by that? Did she think it was moving too quickly? Possibly she didn't tell you though, why. She just simply said, this is bothering me that he has these things. Yes, well, she thought he was living there, and I said, it's a few things. I see, I see, I see. Okay, God its so she thought he might have actually literally been living there. And I said, there's a few things.

But in the closet in the spare room where they were staying, he had all his diplomas, but I was getting them all reframed because some were broken Supposedly, John had told me he had been in Iraq. He had been over there working for Doctor Without Borders about a year, and so his stuff had gotten ruined in his storage and so he wanted me to fix his diplomas. So those were in a few boxes in my closet. So she was under the impression that he was moving in that.

You can understand why she had that esspion. Was he I mean and all like not to mine? Not at that point, so he was not moving in at that point. Were any of those diplomas diplomas from medical school? Yes, many, so they actually said doctor of medicine, la la la la la medical school, the whole nine yards. Yes. So in retrospect, it looks he was trying to almost bolster his like saying, look, these are my because there was no unintentional moves with a con man, right, every everything

is calculated. So how many months? So now you've got three kids who doesn't don't like this guy? All right, so I guess you do. You're so it's killing me because I want nothing more than to have my kids happy and to fall in love and be with a great man. So I'm gonna ask you a difficult question because one of the things that stuck out to me in the story about your your fourth husband, was that

he had put hands on your on your daughter. Yes, okay, when three of your daughters are saying, we don't like this guy, was any of that coming back to you, like, Okay, I've got I need to just listen to my daughters because a man wants to put hands on my daughter, so I just I'm going to listen to them. Unfortunately, Now, why was that? Because I saw the good in him, So I'm thinking, Okay, of course they're not gonna like anyone I date because of what's happened in the past.

So I'm thinking he's going to win him over within time. You're hoping he was gonna hoping. Yeah, I'm hoping. So you did a lot of justifying like it's gonna work out. I want this to work, okay. So from your first date, how many months until you moved in with each other? Too? That's quick? Two months is way too quick, you know, And I mean the reason I say that again, all these tiny little red flags, like it's like it was a red banner, a little red flags, but quick is

a bit of a red flag. And two months is quick, and so you you move in. After two months, you get a new place, and your daughter had already expressed some of her concerns. Do you remember. I mean it's almost like it's like, do you remember your first kiss? Dr? Romney Rolls? And I'm like, do you remember your first

red flag? You know, not he as romantic, but what was the first red flag that you saw that you, no matter how much hope you had for this relationship, you were like a little bit of a pit in the stomach, a little bit of like, oh no, well, obviously the first night that he was on the bed, I was extremely disappointed, and then after that it was more disappointment because of my kids, and it killed me.

I thought I wanted nothing more again than my kids to be happy for me and that I finally found love. And so the red flag that really was like oh my gosh, what did I do would have been he was living there, and it was I think it was late February, so when he got cameras. It's on the front door, it's it's outside down the walkway where there's a mailbox, it's in our bedroom, it's towards the kitchen, so anyway, I'm starting to wonder what's going on, and

I'm just miserable because my kids don't like him. I go to the mailbox and there's a letter from prison from some guy. I even have the envelope still, and I opened it because I'm like, what is going on? And I know you're not supposed to open someone else's mail, but at this point I didn't care, So I opened up this letter. And this letter says so glad that you were doing well, that you met the love of your life, you know, on and on and on, and it says I'll be getting out on you know, such

a such date. And I'm thinking, what's going on? He runs up to me, and keep in mind, this man has never raised his voice, talked back, been stern with me in any way. He runs up, he grabs the letter out of my hand and he said, that's mine. And I'm thinking, how in the world does he know what's going on here? He's been watching me on a camera and I said, oh, what is this and he says,

you've just committed a felony. You opened my mail. So he turns it around where I no longer am asking him the questions He's blaming me for opening his mail. And I'm like, I'm sorry I opened your mail, but what is this? And he says, I give I'm I help people in prison. I give them things, I send them things. I become friends with many of the guys that I send packages to. So I'm thinking, oh, okay, okay, I'm sorry, and I'm thinking that it pretty much just

said he was in jail. Okay, So the letter bit of the letter you read indicated that this was not a prison volunteer program, that this had happened because that he had been in prison, right, So obviously I have questions at this point, and I'm thinking to myself, oh my gosh, what did I do? And I'm thinking what is wrong with me to where I have fallen for this man. So in this sequence here we witnessed so many elements of a narcissistic or toxic relationship. He sets

up surveillance to monitor her. She reads a letter that is unsettling, and instead of talking with her about what it says, he makes it about her committing a felony and that she is a bad person for that, which really reflects blame shifting and gaslighting. Then, as the topper he shape shifts again into communal narcissism and makes it about this idea that he is a prison volunteer. In retrospect, we can see how silly and implausible all of what

he is saying is. But while it is happening, survivors feel like their head is spinning from jumping between shock accusations and bizarre narratives. And so, anyway, I called my nephew because John hated my nephew and my net you hated him, and there have been a few incidentss that had taken place. And I said to Shad, I said, Shaut, I don't know what I've done. And he said, what if I told you that John was never in Iraq? Would you still love him? And I said, ah, yes.

He says, what if I told you that he's not in the medical field? And so what do you mean? He goes, what if I told you he was in jail? And I'm like what. All of a sudden, I get this call from John. He said, you're a Fashion Island and I was I had walked over to Fashion Island, which is very close to us, and I'm thinking, how does he know this? And that night he was supposed to be going in for back surgery the next day.

But John gets about obstruction. This is March fifth, I believe, and we've been in a fight and it's our first fight. And he's calling me names, calling me fat and things that you know are just uncalled for and sort of mean. And I'm thinking, what in the world is going on? He knows where I'm at, he knows some of my text, he's the letter, and I'm thinking, I did it again. It's interesting to me is you're saying things like I did it wrong again, I did it again. Your initial

language is of self blame versus this is a bad guy. Well, no, I knew he was a bad guy, right, But but the more you go to self blame, the more likely you get into a cycle where you're going to get more stuck. So he's in the hospital, he's angry at you. Clearly he's talking you because he knows where you're at. So he's put some form of a tracker on phone or car or whatever it may be, of all the above, which now he's in the hospital. I've decided he went.

He took himself to the hospital, and then I think I had forty three text messages get here right now, get here, get here, get to the hospital. I need you, I need you. And these went on, and I thought, I can't, I can't do it. I'm feeling guilt that I'm not there because I'm married to him. At the same time, I'm like in shock. I've just found out things that I had no idea. So I ended up going to the hospital the next day and he's completely

out of it. I decided to take his phone, and I've watched him type in a password seven eight seven eight seven, so I knew that was his pass password, and I thought, I'm going to open his phone and look at it. As I'm opening up his phone and he's completely out of it. They have him, you know, drugged up. I'm looking girls. I'm looking at text messages and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I'm seeing old girlfriends. I'm seeing girls, him saying Babe, I can be there tomorrow.

You know, things that I'm like, So I'm screenshotting them, is what I'm doing. And then I leave. I didn't stay went home. My kids come over and they say to me, Mom, we just caught everything back from a private and investigator. I literally I was in shock. I sat there and I thought, this is crazy. Um, what am I gonna do? I thought, He's got all the information on me. He has every password, he's even on bank accounts. He knows everything about me. He has cameras, trackers,

even cameras at work. And I thought to myself and I married him. Thank you for listening to part one of my conversation with Debrah. Here are my takeaways from this conversation. The saying that he looks so good on paper maybe a red flag in and of itself. People who look good on paper may have secured certain societal benchmarks, a certain job, education, family life preferences, appearance, or even just someone you know you're friends or family may admire

or approve of. But the problem is that once a person looks good on paper, there is a tendency and temptation to let down our guard and miss the red flags. A con or, a grifter knows what looks good on paper, so they will always be able to create a persona to draw in their next target next. In Deborah's case, her narcissistic relationship moved fast and they married quickly, which

isn't unusual. However, some folks may say their relationship with a narcissistic person actually moved very slowly, for example, waiting years for a commitment. Perhaps the main takeaway is that the relationship always moves at the narcissistic person's pace, not yours, whether that is fat asked or slow, and if you question the pace, you may be gaslighted, or your commitment or your agenda doubted. Pacing matters in a healthy relationship,

and feeling heard about that pacing matters as well. Ultimately, in any narcissistic relationship, they always set the speed next. I actually believe that traditional value systems like marriage and traditional family structures are important to consider when thinking about some of the dangers of narcissistic relationships. Expectations around traditional gender roles and the pressure to keep your feelings in your private business private make people more vulnerable to getting

stuck in narcissistic relationships. So many people who end up in emotionally abusive narcissistic relationships will say, I don't get this. I grew up with a strong family, wrong morals, strong values. I knew what was right and what was wrong. Alas what can end up happening is a traditional value or moral system around something like living together can backfire because the morality may eclipse your focus on red flags and

create a rush to get married. In Deborah's story, the messaging that living with someone was some sort of sin meant that relationships would move too fast. Commitments were made too fast without considering uncomfortable behavior that was happening. Traditional value systems do not make allowances for toxic people, red flags or our instincts that something isn't right. And then once a person finds themselves in that hasty marriage, these traditional value systems make it hard to get out because

of stigmas against divorce or single parenthood. A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Fallon, Jethrow, Ellen Rakaton, and Dr Rominey de Vassela. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Maria Della Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnahe and Calvin Bailiff.