Running for Narcissistic Abuse Awareness w/ Vanessa Reiser

The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I Heart Media, or their employees. The whole thing is a con job. There's nothing authentic happening at all that I've ever been able to see other than the occasional pepper ring of truths so as to confuse both. That is a lie. Everything is basically a lie. Why would anyone

ever run almost three hundred miles in a wedding dress? Well, maybe some of you are thinking to run away from the altar instead of marrying a narcissistic partner. Well, let's find out. In this episode, we are going to hear the story of Vanessa Riser. Vanessa Riser is a mother, entrepreneur, life coach, advocate and a psychotherapist specializing in working with survivors of narcissistic abuse. Vanessa herself is also a survivor of narcissistic abuse. As part of her process of healing

and raising awareness. Vanessa made international headlines when she ran two hundred and eighty five miles across the state of New York in a wedding dress to raise awareness for narcissistic abuse in May of two thousand twenty one. So welcome Vanessa. Hi, thank you for having me. Thank you, thank you, thank you. It's so lovely to have you.

I know, for me, I had actually we had connected, but then I saw I think I was reading a magazine once on like a Saturday or a Sunday and saw about your run, and I thought, I've got to get in touch with her again. And here we are. So I am. I'm just honored happy to have you here. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, thank you,

thank you, thank you. So Vanessa, your story of narcissistic abuse, it's so compelling because when any of us who are therapists go through it, it's always all the more interesting. People say, well, if you're going through it, it's gonna happen to me. So that's how I think your story becomes even more important. So let's start at the beginning. What was your life like before meeting your ex partner.

I had a childhood that was filled with adversity, So there were a lot of ups and downs, tons of toxicity, no boundaries, quite chaotic, and so when I got involved in this relationship, the ups and downs were quite familiar. Interesting. Yeah, that was definitely something that my system was accustomed to. Okay, all right, so that was love to you. Chaos was love. Yeah, it felt comfortable, It felt familiar. I would probably characterize it at that time as somewhat eccentric, manic. It felt

familiar and happy in a lot of ways. There were a very big swing from the ups and downs. The love bombing was particularly heavy based on resources that he had, So the ups and downs were rather severe, and that was something I was familiar with with my upbringing. And when you think about your childhood, because what I'm hearing from you is that the chaos, the ups and the downs of your childhood, the vulnerability they gave to you was that it normalized chaos. So if somebody came along

and behave like that. That was not something that was going to flick a red flag for you. If anything, the familiarity made it really enticing. Yeah. I think in some ways I coveted it, probably more because I maybe needed to resolve that. I think we've done. Did that? Now? Did it affect you in any other ways to be from a family that was characterized by this again, this adversity. Did it affect your sense of self for how you conducted yourself in other spaces of your work, not just

relationships but friendships or work. I think that I was too diversified. The boundaries were not there. I would let anybody into my circle. And as certainly as a social worker that was cemented. People can all be rehabilitated and everyone deserves rah this kind of stuff. So it was like very like part of my fiber to be all encompassing and like the least judge mental person you could ever.

I mean, I just really would advocate for all different types of demographics and I really had no filter around that. I would not discriminate whatsoever. And that really was something that came to bite me that I wouldn't do that. Do you still believe everyone can be rehabilitated. No, okay, alright,

so we're gonna get to that. So I know it's probably hard to think about now, but what or who did you fall in love with when it came to your ex myself in the rear view mirror, I know that it was myself that I was spending a great time with. I fell in love with the fantasy, an idea of parody, a con job that was very meticulously orchestrated, someone who was wickedly manipulative and a deviant, and I

had no idea, just was super naive, very naive. And you said that there was a lot of love bombing initially, what did that of bombing look like? Because I think that love bombing is this term, but it's so diverse, it looks so different in every relationship. So there were extravagant trips, helicopter rides south of France, diamonds concerts. You are my soul mate, You're the most amazing lover. I've never met anyone like you. Everyone is jealous of us.

We are power couple, all of these sort of staples that they generally or rate. So I got it, and I got it bad right that one. Everyone is jealous of us. It's such an interesting kind of a love bomb. At the same you get two for the price of one. You get the love bomb and you get the triangulation. You're really sort of in something that again, it feels larger than life. And if you don't have a roadmap for this, and you have a backstory characterized by any

kind of chaos, it's very appealing. Most of us have not been socialized to say, oh, you're telling me this is all great, it must be terrible. That's not what we're taught to do. So you never experience you had never experienced the love bombing, the highs the lows the way you did in this relationship and any other relationship before this. No, so this was the first right and I think that was known by him, and it was probably a great deal of fun because it felt very

like I grew up. I was raised by wolves, and so I was very much the pretty woman's scenario. So every single thing, from the Lulu lemon pants to the dollar engagement ring, that whole gamut, everything along the way wowed me because I was this ragmuffin Irish kid running around those shoes and no food and no heat for my childhood, so I was very easy to impress with the slightest thing. So if you could imagine I was,

it was like a fever dream. I had no idea and and the hits just came left and right, and it was like it just swept me away. Okay, So that contrast is again something to so pay attention to a person grew up with and then someone rolls up with this, so we understand what would have drawn you in. What were the first red flags that you saw? I think the first real red flag was he made a purchase for me, and on the day of the purchase, which was an automobile, it I was punished for something.

Again not essentially, I had the goal to bring up a conversation I have with a friend on that day. How could you bring that up on this day where I'm so it was this like giving of the gift and then kicking out the legs simultaneously. That created this confusion within me? And how did you make sense of that day? I beat myself up. Why would I ever, you know, have the audacity to communicate something random on

a day that I'm being gifted a car? Right, So when you say it now, it sounds unreasonable, but on the day it happened, it is. I mean that uses this extraordinary gift is being given to Vanessa is raising the issue of narcissistic gift giving here. It's a rather twisted space. It's a mishmash of grandiosity love bombing, but ultimately it's a transaction in which they are trading on validation. They want you to ooh and ah and praise them

and admire them for their gift. In her situation, she was being given a gift, and the implicit communication was that him giving that gift meant that he sort of owned the day and for her to mention something he didn't want to hear about, in her case, something about a friend he experienced reactive hypersensitivity and rage. Narcissistic folks may give you an over the top gift, but it

will always have psychological strings attached. Were there any other red flags you notice, because what I'm hearing there is that sense it was a reactive sensitivity. Right things didn't You didn't do exactly what he wanted, and so he strongly reacted. It was communicated to you. In that moment, you give up on being you and you do it my way right, But what other red flags other than

that one did you observe? Pretty early on in the relationship, speaking of marriage, right away, he wanted to build out my career. He was very focused on my career and how he was going to help me with my career, and I remember thinking it was great, but also thinking it was very heavy. It felt almost pressured, like I

had to be performative. I remember being at a Broadway show front seat, always right front row, and we were with another couple and he was pushing my buttons and I remember turning to him and reacting, and he sat back in his chair so the couple with us could witness my reaction, and I remember thinking it was very peculiar that he sat back. He literally physically was like, look at her, watch what she's about to do. And there were just moments like that. He would speak very passive,

aggressively and disappear. There was a lot of silent treatment where he would go days without talking to me, and it was confusing. There was never a physical component. While I had heard from others that were with him there were it was not like that with me, but it was this up and down and then there was this classical cycle of abuse. There was the makeup phase and then the tension building and the fallout, and the makeup and the tension building and the fall and it just

went like this. And I would say, if we could just go more than a couple of weeks without this, we'd be okay. We never were able to do so. So one of the things you said, Vanessa, it's really jumping out at me is the fast it moved fast. You moved in together fast, you were talking about marriage fast. And it's so funny because so many people think like fast is exciting, fast is intoxicating. Fast feels like I'm

so sure it's a sure thing. And yet I've heard that story so many times of people saying, when I look back, we moved too quickly. Everything was like, it's sort of fast eating gluttons, fast, money, making fast cars, fast, fast, fast, never assciated a hole in the bucket. It was just this unfillable void of yes, fast and furious attainment and needing to have everything all the time. And it just it was dizzy, and I truly was becoming sick. And

let me tell you, nobody keeps up with me. I'm an athlete, and the rest and it was making me sick. It's such an interesting visual you're putting out there, the Vanessa. I can almost picture it right, the intensity, the fast, and when I think of something so fast, something fast is going to move quickly across the horizontal, but it can't go deep. When everything is so fast, it's almost like acquiring all the time, but you can never go deep because you're going so quick. And that's what I

hear there. You just gave me the children writing that down. I mean, it's really really a frenzy. But when something is happening that fast, we almost can't. We can't pay attention, we can't process information. I don't know that this guy

was smart enough to think of it that way. But for the other person in the relationship, they're at a market disadvantage because things are happening so fast that unless they say slow down, and then it's very likely that the person you're telling to slow down would rage at you. So you learn quickly if I do that, I'm going to have to end the relationship, which also might feel scary, or I'm going to get raged at so I might

as well try to keep up. And someone has driven, especially as an athlete is you you're going to keep up. You're gonna keep up. Yeah. And it's funny because if you say to a narcissist, slow down, their ears will perk and they'll say, oh, this person potentially could be on to me, and you might find yourself discarded. Anyway, this slowdown is not going to work for if you want to slow down, it's on to the next Bye. I know you're committed to helping survivors and helping prevent this.

How do we let people know? And that's okay to honor yourself enough say this is too fast for me, So I'm gonna say slow down, they'll discard you. It's helping people recognize that the discard is actually a good thing. And that's a tough sell because that's got some deep developmental roots for a lot of people who may experience that as abandonment or rejection or any of those things. Vanessy,

So you're a therapist. I'm a therapist, right. Everybody wants to think that therapists, of all people, would see the red flags before anyone else would. Everyone else would write do you think that there are things that you actually did notice because of your training as a therapist. I had him pegged for some manic That's what I was witnessing and thinking was going on because I didn't receive

enough education around personality disorders in general. But yeah, I was busy studying it in a d h D was obviously flying around in my mind and others, But this was not something that ever came into my mind until the day I left and I was gifted that information from one of his exes, And that was the day I went through the portal. Was like here ago. And I did know at that time as a therapist that one of the big indicators for this disordered personality was

no empathy. I didn't know that, and that was enough for me, because even the girl who was raised by wolves knew enough that I couldn't be with any person that didn't experience empathy. I just I couldn't even fathom that concept. Okay, so how long did it take you to figure out that this person didn't have empathy? It was that day that I was told and I just remembered somewhere along the way, remember hearing that narcissists didn't

have empathy. It was just something that was in my in my mind somewhere in the corners of my mind, I knew that to be true, and you were experiencing him is not having empathy, right. I remember then reflecting on when my beloved Katie the go the retriever did pass away, that he was missing, that he was indifferent, that he kept like carrying on as if nothing had occurred, and I was just destroyed by this. I would often tell my son Anthony, I love you, but I really

love Katie. So the connection I had to this dog was known by most to be really special to me, and so it was something that just didn't There was no registering of it for him, and I was totally I was acutely aware of that. Okay, So that that was the penny drop moment. Many every narcissistic relationship has one. It is interesting, though, in the sense that you said something that really just stuck with me, that I had a sort of a framework for what I thought was

going on with this guy. I had the wrong framework, and then I learned this other framework. But what it comes back to is, in some ways your training might have actually been a liability because you were actually trying to apply a framework. The thing you weren't doing was just paying attention to how you felt and saying I don't care what the framework is. This is not cool.

And I always try to help people say, I'm thinking, I'm trying to put a name to your this whole thing you're dealing with, but you don't need the name, you just need the feeling. Yeah, I agree with you. I think it definitely was a problem for me because, as I mentioned earlier, I was also a fixer what he's going to get fixed? And I think that concept was something that was I would have argued long and hard with a lot of people about and I was

totally wrong. What were you wrong about that everyone could be rehabilitated? That this was something that was just like in my fiber, that like, no matter what it is, we can fix it. And I was wrong about that. And I think that does come from my training in a way. It's almost like there was just you'r in this relationship. Things are happening that felt uncomfortable, You kept going with it. You had a framework, you feel now it wasn't the right framework. You are like every survivor.

I'm like every survivor, We've all been through this. What do you think was the block for you that you couldn't figure out what the problem was at first, Like, clearly this relationship wasn't going well, what do you think was blocking you from figuring what out this problem was? Given all your knowledge. That's why I'm asking that I

was still was blaming myself. I think I was still thinking, it's got to be your ex husband left you gotta and you're you're kissing vinegar because I am I'm a tough person, and so I figured and I think a lot of people around me still question that because of how strong I am, like, oh, it could never have been him. It had to have been her kind of a thing. And so I feel like I blamed myself. Such an important thing again for people to know, you

had a couple of things going on. You had your own training as a therapist number one, which is a blessing and a curse. Number two, you had a belief that anyone could be rehabilitated, and that can sometimes obscure us from the toxic patterns we see because we're thinking, oh, this tool shall pass. And then you know the third thing you're saying, which is I think the signature of every narcissistic relationship is the self blame. It's got to

be me. Someone else's left me in the past. I am a handful, I'm tough, I'm not always the easiest, all of those things which are often internalized narratives from childhood's, especially if you came from adverse or difficult childhood experiences. Yep, that's exactly how it felt. And I think it was then cemented even further by his sort of presentation generally of being sort of philanthropic and kind and donating money

and perpetuating this con narrative. So I just became confused around it must be me, And that was something that took a lot for me to realize. At the end, when I finally did vacate the home and leave, I fled. It was because I had seen something that I knew it wasn't me anymore, and that there was the day I realized it wasn't me. And what was the moment? What was that aha moment where you're like, this isn't me.

What happened for you? That he was insatiable, that he never going to be sad, satisfied, There was nothing that was going to make him happy, content fulfilled. It was just this ongoing neediness that I thought was absurd quite honestly, for a time, did you actually try to fill that insatiability? Like did you know when you see someone who can't ever be satisfied? A real risk for a partners that like, Okay, I'll keep doing more, I'll keep giving more, I'll be more.

Was that how you managed it? I think on a lot of occasions, there was a lot of travel, and I remember I get motion sickness, So I remember being on planes, trains and automobiles, drivers, private jets, running around the entire world, and I was fully exhausted. And I'm so much a homebody, like I love Christmas and puzzles and red wine and my puppy and things like that. I don't tend to be excited about travel. And I know that sounds like very strange, but I tend to

be sort of grounded. And I remember that I kept going everywhere, and I kept forcing myself to get on airplanes. And I remember being a Barcelona and I had to have a doctor come to the hotel room because I had gotten very ill from running around. I didn't participate in flitting about the earth a lot. Then I really didn't want to stuff I did, So you kept trying to meet him where he was out with all this endless travel, even though it wasn't who you are, You're

you're giving up your preference for him. So ultimately, then how would you characterize Like how what was the word you were using to describe him to yourself? You're saying, this is a difficult person, toxic person, narcissistic person. Like when you got to this aha moment, how did you think? Like what how did you describe this person to yourself to help you make sense of this? It took me, I would say, about three weeks to fully process what

had even happened. So for nine days I shook like a drug addict because I was in a very wicked

trauma bon I mean, fully shaped crying. And then when that sort of lifted, I still had this dissonance, right, so I was still confused things were happening in the courtroom now, and I was actually second guessing myself having sent texts because I was getting cyber gaslet and all of these weird hackings were occurring, and I remember thinking I was very crazy at that moment, and thinks I had a good group of friends that were telling me,

You're not crazy. But I still didn't really understand until probably a month later, she said, I was so trauma bonded that for nine days, I felt sick. I was shaking. Talk a little bit more about that, because I think that people need to understand that, even when we know intellectually it's good for us to leave the idea of leaving one of these relationships because of this trauma bonded experience. It's so uncomfortable and it's so physically unsettling. That's what

pulls a lot of people back in. Are they endured the nine days you did? What was that nine day period like? And again the physical feeling of it, if you could talk more about that. So for nine days I shook like a drug addict because I wanted him to fix it. He always fixed it before, and I was conditioned for that cycle to begin again. So this is the cycle of abuse, the love bombing, de valuing discards.

So the love bombing is the makeup part. Okay, So in the very first place, it's love bombing with the love vombing is equivalent to the makeup version in the cycle. And the makeup was supposed to be coming soon, and when it didn't come, I was just physically experiencing it. The other part of this is I had to go stay with my mother, who was my childhood adversity, so I had a compounded experience. And then when I finally got home, it was like a rebirth of sorts. It

was really scary. A lot of my friends left me. They didn't support me. They were you know, he didn't do anything to me, so I had to experience that also. It was it was not for the week No, it's not for the weekend. That's why I think every survivor is so strong and to anyone listening and hearing Vanessa's story here that idea of physically shaking this is a woman who's trained as a therapist, who knows about trauma and the physics that physiological experience of when our trauma

bonded experience is cut. I want this to humanize the experience of listeners who sometimes will feel there's something wrong with me, or maybe this is a sign that I'm not supposed to leave this relationship. If I feel this terrible, it would actually be easier to go back and end that feeling, and that it is really about pushing through that discomfort, because that's the only way you're going to get to the other side. I think that was important,

But you also said something so important too. So many survivors go through this. Here you are leaving this narcissistic relationship which is emotionally abusive, and then you had to go live with your mother. It sounds like maybe more an original kind of a sort of a narcissistic abuser, and that is not a unique story. Many people will get their finances intermingled with the narcissist or just leave with what they've got just to get out and then

find themselves. And the really problematic position of then having to turn to people who were once people who took advantage, abused, you know, invalidated all of that, and now they're having to go back into that space, which can also feel almost like a re traumatization. So leaving is no picnic. So ultimately, even as how did you survive the relationship and then how did you survive the end of the relationship.

I survived the relationship with my friends, the ones that stood by me and helped space for me and loved on me in spite of what seemed to be a strange experience or something that I was. It didn't seem believable in some ways because his sort of his facade is such that you maybe wouldn't have noticed or seen anything wrong. In fact, it was like, what do you mean you found Prince Charming? What are you talking about? So the ones that honored my truth were carrying me

through that. So every two weeks, as I mentioned, I would find them and be like, what the hell is happening, and they would sit with me and believe me. So those friends carried me through this. And my son also, who I think at one point I'm actually quite sure of it was on the verge of getting gasolt and grooms a little bit. When I snatched him back, I was like, this is what's happening. And thankfully we had such a great relationship that he locked arms with me

and his father. His father also said, listen, you always stay with mom, and we were able to kind of keep him out of the clutches of that like faithful, like that scary, grooming, poisoning, manipulating thing. I just remember thinking, like my only child, if he gets poisoned by this and he starts to believe this and he's being gaslight But there was a moment in time I saw it, and then thankfully he didn't bite, and I was like, oh my god. Yeah, it got a little scary because

you know, the fallout is so pervasive. Everything they touched just just gets destroyed. So that was that was I was on the precipice of that, and that would have wrecked me. And I see that with so many of my clients, is that their precious children are manipulated, gaslate, destroyed, ruined, traumatized, and we have to do so much work in the judicial system to fix that. That is really that's everybody's

lions done at this point. It absolutely is. I think again, that's a whole other conversation and one we actually did also with Tina Swidden, who was on this podcast but love her. Yeah, she's great, And this idea of you're absolutely right, it's not enough that the narcissistic relationships so traumatizing people, but then the systems that exist in our world right now all re traumatized and the survivor almost

doesn't have a fighting chance. So how did you do after, like what was the survival like after the relationship ended, because in some ways that's almost more precarious. It was at first, I was very alone. It was COVID, which was isolating enough, and so I had to sit in the muck of my healing. But my God, was that the greatest thing I've ever done, because I had to sit and work on all of the stuff that I

should have worked on a zillion years ago. And I got good and comfortable being by myself, listening to jazz music and talking to my friends and just pasting around and running, and I just began to love myself in a new way and just build confidence that I kind of had before. A lot of my clients and a lot of cult members get robbed of their childhood. I really was tough before I met this fool and I went back to her. So I got back on my bike, or I got back into like I kind of lost her,

but she was already there. Some people don't even have that. So many children never really haven't a sense of self. I was fortunate enough to just go ahead and find that girl again. I was putting on the hip hop music again and the reggae, and I was just I was getting back into myself and it was It wasn't as scary for me as I think it is for some. And it nearly killed me. Imagine that it was nothing compared to others, and it was. It nearly killed me. Yes,

it's a matter of degrees, right. I also see narcissistic abuse as being on a continuum. I think at the quote unquote lower ends, it still plays with someone's head. And obviously at the most moderate and severe end, you're talking about people who walk out of these relationships with post traumatic stress. But when it is a lifelong relationship, you've been dealing with narcissistic relationships from the very beginning.

It really does rob a child of their identity. They never ever ever get to to develop the who of themselves, the personhood, what they like, what they don't, who they are. It's almost as though without that sort of big, glooming narcissistic person, they don't even have a way to define themselves, and they're defined by that person. So that time alone, which is something I preach, you need time alone to find yourself. You need to know what kind of pizza

you like. You need to know what time of day you want to exercise, you need to know what TV shows you like, because all of that was stolen from you. And so I agree that even when it feels like you had a decent start with it. It's still completely did in number for you. Were there any sort of practical things that you did or structural things you did at the point you left? Was there anything you need to prepare for moving out of the house that the

two of you share together. So I had a little whisper, probably only six months into the relationship, so I was probably moved into the home only two months. This is how chaotic it was. And it was just a lot of fighting all the time. And so I remember I had this whisper that was like this makes me emotionals, like hi to Anthony's pictures. So my son is twenty three, but because he's twenty three, his pictures are actual photographs, right,

So we don't have those anymore. But there were bins, big, big, big bins of pictures of my boy, and somehow there was this voice that was like, hide the pictures. Hide the pictures, hide the pictures. And every time there was like an argument, I would shuffle them over to the guesthouse and tuck them into a closet, and another argument that I would lock the closet door. And then I remember I have like an eight thousand dollar tri bike, and I remember same things, scurrying it over to the

guest house. I remember talking. I was aware that something was going to happen, but it was the universe was like that, as we have to hide this stuff. Literally, I'm thinking I should rent a storage unit, and then he would love bomb me again, and then I would on hand it. I would become lazy and complacent the rest. But I was able to fundamentally at least remove things from his direct grab. Let's say, so that what I did exit, I was able to stash it all in

my car and run. That's actually an interesting strategy. I know in the past what I've said, and this is pre pandemic, when people might have still had an office and said, get some of the whether it's copy scans, things that matter to you, get them out of their friends, house, friends, garage, something somewhere, so that if you did have to do

it quickly, at least around the sentimental stuff. And then obviously there's all the other stuff like having a burner phone and having some cash that you can access quickly and all of that stuff that's much more strategic. But even those things, like you said, a box of photographs, we don't think about that. But those are the things that would throw you into a pan neck And when you're already teetering on the brink, you're like, I can't

leave because the photographs are still in there. So by getting those things out when the moment comes in, the moment will come for most people that you're like, Okay, I can get out, and all the rest of it is just stuff. Yeah. I always tell my clients to get the passports, get the tax returns, get the computer. I say it all the time. I'm not afraid because my clients are in harm's way, make a safety bag,

get the kids pajamas, put in the neighbor's house. We talk about things that are a little bit different in rogue, and I don't apologize for that. And I will say hide the money. Start hiding your money. Now, these are conversations that I have with my clients. I think that what happens is so many structures aren't supportive, so these things are so manipulative. We need to give people those skills. So I think that's absolutely great. My session with Vanessa

will continue after this break. What I'd like to do Vanessa's given what you've been through and what I know about. I'd love to go over with you some of the warning signs for people to look out for when they're in a relationship with a narcissist, which I know you know about just because you also work in this space too. I'm going to ask you some patterns, and you've already talked about some of these, like, for example, the relationship moving really fast as one of the signs that you

might be in a relationship with a narcissistic person. What about the idea of a mask. Did you experience any of that wearing a different mask in public than in private. Yeah, So the mask generally is this sort of facade, so they will wear it for others to see, they will be nicer to the public than they are to you. At some point, the mask might slip and then fall directly,

depending upon many variables. But it's just their optics. They're concerned about how they're perceived by others, right, and that perception is really about validation. I think that there's such a simplicity to understanding narcissism once you get it, in the sense that everything is driven by validation. Right. But if they can get validation and they can overwhelm another person. In other words, so that other person has no sovereignty.

They're not a differentiated person from them. They exist to feed them like you're almost like a pipeline feeding them, so that the those the mask, these optics, as you put it, it becomes a way to get validation. But the second piece of the simple model is their need for regulation. That mask is exhausting for a narcissistic person to have to play nice, and so when they're behind closed doors, then you get to the simple part number three,

which is domination. Not only are they going to show you I dominate you, but also they're exhausted from depleting all that bandwidth having to be nice and in inhibiting maybe things they wanted to say, and they'll take it out on that person in private. And the danger of that means that everyone is seeing this person in public as being a great person. In private, you're experiencing something awful.

And you yourself had that experience of some of your friends saying I didn't have any problem with him, and that's the foundation of that. The interesting thing with many other mental health issues, the person looks the same all the time, Like agreeable people always look agreeable wherever they are people were sad depressed, even look consistently depressed. The narcissistic person is charming in public and horrific in private,

and that differentiation is a choice. Yeah, And I think we need to recognize that classically, poets, priests and politicians are sort of these legendary characters of the Boogeyman. Doesn't look like the Boogeyman. We need to understand that just because you don't see it doesn't not make it. So this is so important. What you're saying is is a big piece to the puzzle because even with our own experience, myself included, even my own experience with my abuser was

a lot of dissonance for me. So imagine, I can absolutely put my mind around the fact that you don't see it because I can barely see it, and I'm with it because I'm confused myself. So I honor what you're doing. But what we really need to do is start believing people who are dealing with emotional abuse. We need to start talking about it and identifying it as not being somebody who's sort of overt and obvious. There's nothing obvious about this, That's what makes it so bad.

Our entire legal system and our justice system is based on things we can see, right, things that are actionable, a crime that can be identified, and that right there is the bane of every survivor of narcissistic abuse, because short of taking a video or recording of someone, which is then not admissible, there's no way to capture this unless by happenstance, someone happened to see it. And then even still, people may not even believe that person in you.

So you're absolutely right, it's really really insidious. Another pattern that is so common in narcissistic relationships is lying is deceit was that something you experienced? Yeah, And I think that's very interrelated to the manipulation in the gas lighting, because it all becomes muddy. I don't I don't know that first of all, that the narcissist knows all that they're doing. I know they know a lot of it, but they oftentimes confabulate and become confused and deluded around

all the lies they've been telling. The truth is is totally lost. And people will say to me, you can tell the narcissist is lying when his lips are moving and or her lips are moving, And I say no, the narcissist doesn't even have to move the lips because they're lying to themselves. The whole thing is a con job. There's nothing authentic happening at all that I've ever been able to see other than the occasional peppering of truths so as to confuse. Most of it is a lie.

Everything is basically a lie. There's a few things that randomly are truths, because a broken clock is right twice a day. Right, Well, let me think that's what it is. And it is delusional grandiosity. They have to believe their hype that they are. They're not even ordinary people. They don't have any needs, they're not weak like the rest of us. It is delusional and in and of itself that that becomes a lie because they do have needs and in fact, probably way more needs and all the

rest of us. And it's a it's this mix of lying, like you said, gas lighting, delusion, all of that. And one time we're talking about things that people miss is are things like insecurity and anxiety. We think the narcissist grandiose, arrogant, bully, But insecurity is what sort of at the center of

all this was that something you experienced in yours. This was something I was able to discern for some reason because I felt secure enough in myself and I remember picking up on this like it was he was so insecure, and I remember saying, you are so insecure. I've never seen anyone who had everything be so insecure, because it was where you're going, what the neediness was, you know, it was showing me the insecurity because it was like, if you were suppose security wouldn't really care about the

mailman talking to me or whatever it was. But yeah, the insecurity was just glowing, glaring all the time. And I think that, you know, this is the root of part of why they behave the way they do. But this wicked insecurity is a big part. Every narcissist is insecure, correct, It's a core dynamic of narcissism. And the fact is all these other defenses, the grandiosity, the arrogance, even the lack of empathy, these are all sort of a They're a mask. It's almost like a suit of armor around

this shameful sense that they're not all that. So they have these delusional states that they maintain so they can be all that. And yet that insecurity is always sort of knocking on the door. They're not able to integrate that vulnerability into themselves and lash out at anyone that reminds them of their insecurity. So you stepping out or maybe talking to the postman would be enough, because you're reminding them that maybe they're not all that. So they're

going to rage you. You how dare you do that? But it's that part, I agree is not conscious at all. They're raging because this sort of sense of shame and inadequacy has sort of been has been brought up in them. Another theme we see in these relationships are smear campaigns, so when the whole thing, even sometimes when people are in the relationship, there will be smear campaigns, but they certainly come up afterwards. Was that your experience, girl? Oh?

So I was on the board for the local domestic violence center where I lived and and I was so proud I am a wicked advocate. So he wrote a letter that I was the abuser and tried to get me kicked off the board and it was so horrifying to me. And the other thing is they didn't exactly handle it right. President of the board said to me, we believe both of you, and we had to have

a meeting, and it was really, really horrifying. And I know you and I have talked a little bit about how DV centers maybe don't do a good enough job around calling narcissistic abuse narcissistic abuse and what that's meant to so many of my clients, because it would be like if you went to the hospital and they said you're sick, and you say, well, what do I have and they said, well, you're sick, Well what is wrong

with what is it? So the validation that I give my clients and that others like yourself and a gaggle, there are so many of us, not enough, but that gift of validation for somebody who's super confused is not being given to them by DV centers. I know that they have their place and we need them. In my experience, it was equal parts sort of. This was just another compounded thing where these were my friends and they were supposed to support me, but because he was a big donor,

I was made to feel a certain way. It was horrible, and I know that this that I'm not the first one to have experienced something like this where a donor the wife stays in the shelter and things like this. I know that because I was told that that happens a lot. But that smear campaign was horrible for because, as I mentioned earlier, I'm that tough girl, um, that sort of gritty broad and it was easy enough, I think for people to subscribe to the look of Fanessa,

like she's not going to get pushed around. Who's it? Just it was horrible, And in some ways that's important to mention because I feel like I'm able to understand the male victim correct of narcissistic abuse because I'm in some ways the outliers, so I say to them. And even though my work is very much around advocacy for women, because of patriarchy and that's a whole other macro conversation, I can put my mind at it because I'm like,

you know what, I don't. I don't fit the profile either, right, So not to the extent I want to honor that, but like somewhat I could put my mind er at it, and I try to honor that too. It's hard for me because of patriarchy and just like structure that's built into our cultures and the rest. But yeah, the spear campaign. Sorry, long dietrage. The smear campaign was terrible for me. Yeah, and I think it's beyond the scope we can talk about.

But the history of where the world of domestic violence kind of came up a little bit short when it comes to narcissistic abuse. Back in the seventies, there was a lot to pushback on not wanting to place a diagnostic label on an abuser, right because that would imply that it's something that could be changed and fixed, and it almost takes the lens away from the abuse and

getting helped for the survivor. But I think what's happened now is that we've you know, it's very muddy conversation, and I've said to people a narcissism is not a clinical diagnosis. It's a personality style and be you can't shift it. So if I'm telling you someone's narcissistic, your ears should perk up, because now I'm basically telling it,

there ain't much that could be done. So this person is harming this person, They're going to keep harming this person, and we need we need to keep that in mind rather than oh, they're narcissistic, So what do we do? I mean the punchline to that is not much, not much. We will be right back with this conversation with Vanessa. M So, Vanessa amazing and your stories extraordinary and all of that. But after your traumatic relationship, you decided to

do something about this with your very personal flare. And it's something so unique. Why did you choose to run two hundred and eighty five miles in a wedding dress to raise awareness? Well, as most of my brilliant ideas occur, I was on a run and I thought, how can I make people understand? And I knew that because I was a clinician, that it was my duty to warn, it was my duty to say something, to speak out, to be the voice for all of the silent victims.

I just knew it. I was like feeling like, oh, here we go, and I thought, okay, let's get this dress hacked, let's start running. My son graduated from college a day before, and I was like, I love you, here we go and off I went, just like the nutty, you know person that I am, And it was very healing for me, but I think it validated so many

people in my inboxes, like thing the thing. Everyone was like, oh, thank you for you know, and I remember, at some point in my court proceedings, because I've been dealing with this for quite a while, my son was like, what's wrong with you? You have to stop. I go like, can't stop. These people need me to do this. I can't stop, and I haven't. And you know, here we are. Why did you choose to do it in a wedding dress?

What was that symbolically? So the narcissist generally exploits fantasy is that we have So if you tell the narcissist that you don't want them to feed your child peanut butter, then you can guarantee that the child's going to get peanut butter. So the wedding is something that they understand generally and holistically is coveted by in our culture women specifically, the wedding is your faked and dangled and the rest.

So the wedding is very problematic, not just for the interpersonal love affair, but the narcissistic mother generally gets very kicked up by this. It tends to be a hot spot that narcissists exploit. They're just very uncomfortable around this, or they dangle it. It's it's a big deal. So the wedding dress is a symbol of something fantastical, so

it's very, very vulnerable. Spot my interpretation of it when I I saw you do it, and there's this absolutely beautiful image of you running and the entire dress and the train are trailing behind you. It's just a beautiful picture. And what I saw from it was a couple of things. Number One, it was like runaway. That was one interpretation

I had. And the other interpretation I had was it was about putting on this dress that on the day somebody could potentially marry a narcissist that they're going to be imprisoned. And yet you took that costuming and turned it into an act of strength and persistence and perseverance. And that's how I interpreted when I saw that, because I think we still view a woman in a wedding dress is something demure, and you turned it into something very strong, and that's what I loved about it. You

know that that was what from you. Oh my gosh, I'm just taking notes because I didn't set out to necessarily do that, but I'm thrilled that that was something you saw, and that sort of speaks to me about the warrior you are. Because at that time I was talking about something that was being exploited, was this sort of coveted experience. But I just love that that's what

you saw. I'm taking a note good good because obviously everyone's going to project onto that image because it's such a unique one that this it's actually, if anything, a bride to me an address is such a restricted thing, and then there's something so free about it. And that's the problem in a narcissistic relationship. You don't get to be free, you don't get to be you. And the day you put on a wedding dress. In a narcissistic relationship,

it's over for you in a way. But you were saying you can be free, you can be you, and so I think that that was really really important. So you said, you've got a lot of traffic in your inbox. What do you think your run did for other women who have followed it on social media? I think they were so connected to somebody that had the balls to say something, do something. I saw women crying. Some people came and they met me out there, and again this

is the problem. They themselves want to rage. They can't because they are raising children with this. The real problem that we have to address is the judicial system. As Tinus Webben definitely is clear about my leg and my work is the clinical piece, but as the social worker that macro lens and being an advocate, I attached myself to that directly because that is really what the problem is. My clients can't speak because of that problem. That's exactly

where I couldn't agree more. And you know, listen, it's going to be a slow burn of educating judges, educating attorneys, changing laws. So how do you plan and you know you've already started in a big way, but how do you plan on continuing to bring awareness to domestic violence and to narcissistic abuse. Yeah, I'm going to run the state of New Jersey in at the end of September, September and October one, and we're gonna hopefully do this a virtual version this time. So last year we did

just me in New York. This time we're going to have others run in their wedding dresses in their respective states regions and if they're willing share their stories so we can hopefully either blurb out their face or something, because we want other stories to be high lighted whilst protecting their identity. So we're trying to peek into others voices and I think ultimately the idea is for the wedding dress run to become a yearly thing and we

really this time. I think we're going to hopefully hear from others and they'll share their stories. They'll have their cameras and and highlight some part of their story so we can capture a little bit more of it and create a movement. Tell us about your organization. Is there any other things that you do to raise awareness about narcissistic abuse? Sure? So, I have a nonprofit called tell a Therapist dot org, which is just a nonprofit where if you contact us, we will connect you with the

North Savvy clinician. Great. The goal ultimately is to get an app The goal is to also maybe open up a center at some point. I know these are very big goals, but we're not playing games over here. There's been such a wonderful conversation hearing about your process, and it's again somebody who's in the field also who has gone through this, and you know some of O Listen, I'm someone who is in the field. I have been through this more than once and in fact, you know

the sort of decide ee joke as well. Girl, If you keep getting stuck in this, does this mean you're not very good at it? And I think you nailed it that even stable can discard you, and chaotic will discarade you. And it is about that constant checking in

with yourself. But as a psychologist that's been hurting many kinds of narcissistic relationships, I have to say that I think it's really humanizing for people to see that all the knowledge in the world that our trauma bonds are histories, are back stories, and honestly, sometimes just our empathy is what can get us back into these relationships. So I

can't thank you enough, Vanessa. And I couldn't fit one leg into my old wedding dress, but if I could, I would not be running but walking alongside of you. Thank you so much for everything. I'm just so thrilled to be with you. I just I think the world of you, and I'm fan girling and loving your work and I'm excited to be on this journey with you.

Thank you, Vanessa, I am too, and again we're sending you nothing but good luck and wins at your back as you make this this this run across New Jersey, which is the state I was born in, So I send your good Jersey girl vibes. Here are some takeaways from my conversation with Vanessa. First, Vanessa's story teaches us once again of the complicated role of social support in

helping us survive narcissistic abuse. She told us her story of the friends who doubted her, which made her process much more difficult, but also of the friends who held her up. Listened and we're there for her. As you go through your experience of nar statistic abuse, the one thing that you're going to learn is who your real friends are. A person doesn't have to have gone through this to be a supporter. They merely need to be empathic.

But sadly, because so many people don't understand this, it can be a tall order and you will run into the folks who say, well, I never had any trouble with him. But when you find those people who do have that empathy, they are absolute treasures in this process of recovery and healing. Our next takeaway is that Vanessa is a therapist. She has learned about trauma, mental health, mental illness. She does therapy with clients, and yet she has the humility to observe that trauma bonds can interfere

with seeing red flags. No matter who you are, be kind to yourself as you go through this process. Red flags can be clear as day when we look back at them, but trauma bonds actually mean that while we're in it, we can't see red Her story is also a reminder that even when a toxic relationship ends in those early days, we literally feel sick, and the easy play is to go right back into the relationship, behoovered and start the cycle again. It's normal to feel that depleted,

sick feeling. We carry trauma and loss in our bodies. This is a reminder of why therapy is so important in the process of healing, but also to recognize that your body, when it feels so sick, it's not telling you to go back, it's reminding you how bad it was. And in our last takeaway, in Vanessa's story, she was recovering from her relationship in the early days of the pandemic, which forced her to be alone, and it's pretty clear

that solitude was a key part of her healing. Many times, being alone can be a scary feeling and isolating feeling, But for survivors of narcissistic abuse, that time alone to let our nervous system sort of settle down, a time when you can listen to the music you want, do the things you want, give yourself the time you need, and to do all of that without criticism is absolutely crucial.

Solitude is how we come back to ourselves. It can be easy to want to throw yourself back into crowds and people, but make sure you give your body and your psyche a minute to rest and recognize how great your company is by spending some time alone. Hey everyone, so I've been welcoming hearing your emails and I have one that somebody sent in. I have been listening to your Navigating Narcissism podcast. Thank you. Without a question of a doubt. I have been married to a narcissist for

fifteen years. So my question is is divorced the only option for someone in a relationship like this. I have come to the conclusion that I cannot change him, but can I change the way I think and relate to him? To that question, I give a resounding absolutely. I want to reassure everyone who is listening because a lot of people hear this and hang their head and say, oh, no, I this is all hopeless. It's actually not. I'm gonna tell you right from the jump, folks, fifty of people

stay in these relationships. It's not always practical to leave. Reasons of money, children, culture, religion, support, whatever it may be. They're your reasons and that makes them valid reasons. So don't immediately say, oh my gosh, I'm married to a narcissist.

Got to call an attorney. No, no, no. I think it's sort of slow down for a minute and really think about, Okay, I'm not going to be able to change this person, but how can I ratchet my expectations and come at this from a place of radical acceptance. This isn't going to change. These patterns aren't going to change. So what do I need to do to sort of make this doable? As it were? There's a lot of

steps you can take. One is it's not always going to be I'd say, in the cases of more mild to moderate narcissism, people can make a horse race of it.

There's some grief, though. I'm gonna tell you right now, this relationship won't have the sort of the depth and the intimacy that you may have hoped for in your love story, and again there's a lot of grief and loss around that that you have to process, and therapy often becomes a really important space in which to do that that holding out for that someday better is not likely to come. Creating that depth in other areas of

your life, though, becomes very important. One of the most important things that survivors can do is to cultivate other deep experiences in their lives. Whether that's relationships with family members you actually do, like your own children, friends. It might be work you do you may take on, whether that's volunteer work, whether that's paid employment, whether that's pursuing

a goal you had. In a way, it's recognizing that you're now going to transfer that misplaced psychological energy that you've been putting into this narcissistic relationship and that yields no return, and actually investing it into you, into your healthy relationships, into the healthy people around you, and into the things that matter. What I often tell people who decide to stick it out with a narcissistic partner is make yourself a promise once a year, your own personal

anniversary date to revisit it and reassess. Some folks while for divorce the day their youngest child turns eighteen years old. Some people sort of waited out and wait for other transitions in life to happen. Some people wait until something really egregious happens in the relationship, for example, perhaps something

like infidelity. Only you know what that process is. But before getting ahead of yourself and taking on something that feels as big as seeking out a divorce, I really really want to stress to you that you take the time to decide what can you live with. Remember the hard part of a narcissistic relationship, this is going back and forth between good days and bad days. And a piece of advice I give to all survivors is don't

burn your umbrellas. And what I mean by that is on those good days, you might think, oh, we're on a good roll. Here, it's going to rain again, so

hold on to that umbrella. The bad days are that reminder, and maybe you can just sort of ride the wave on those good days, and on those bad days, maybe you got a little bit of bandwidth from those good days when you had realistic expectation on those good days that the bad days are coming, instead of those bad days feeling like a slap in the face or a bucket of cold water, you like, I knew this was kind of coming, and that you start building up strategies

and the like to help you manage. And I'm gonna leave you with one little gift here And this is for all of you. And I say this over and over again on this pab guest. When you're in a narcissistic relationship, because these relationships are not deep, it is crucial that you remember that you don't go deep in these relationships. And what do I mean by that, I mean don't defend yourself, don't explain yourself, don't engage with them,

and don't personalize what they're doing. If you can remember that little rule and keep it in your pocket, it's a great way to say, oh, I'm not even get into this with them, and I am not going to defend myself so they can just start gaslighting and it's not about me, this is them, this is their personality. If you don't go deep, you might be able to buy some time and take a minute before you make

a decision that has major implications for your life. A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valon Jethrow, Ellen Rakaton and Dr Romeney de Vassela. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Maria Della Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donaghy and Calvin Bailiff h