Red Flags in Social Media and Relationships

The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I Heart Media, or their employees. The first major argument and the most consistent issue in the relationship was his addiction to social media. He would constantly be on his phone, to the point where I said, you don't even have a hobby. Social media is your hobby. You don't watch

TV shows, you don't read, you don't do anything. You just sit on your phone. And he would just watch his own stories over and over again and smile to himself. He'd watch himself and be smiling to himself. He'd look at every every single like, every single comment he just read how much people adore him. And that was a huge red flag for me. He was in love with his own show, and as I as the relationship went on, and I really got to understand that it is a show.

He was so in love with this production that he was putting on. Social Media is the playground of the narcissistic person. A mirror that actually talks back and through likes and comments is even a mirror that validates you. We are going to hear the story of one woman's love story gone wrong and how social media was a big red flag that she didn't initially register but ended up being one of many. Her story is the reminder that anything that starts by feeling like a grandiose very

tale rarely ends well. That you can't dress up obsession is just intense interest or a grown up crush. It's obsession, and that's never a good thing. That our own narratives can allow us to sculpt red flags into a love story instead of a cautionary tale. I have no doubt that many people will hear parts of their story in hers, and a reminder that all of us, even myself, have been duped in these relationships that feel more like con

games than connection. Ultimately, these fairy tales turned fables end up teaching us some really important life lessons. Thank you so much for being with us. I am just so grateful to hear your story somebody who is as strong and a power in your own right to share your story, because I think what it does is it really pushes back on the tropes and even this word victim, which I ever like to use. And you know, given your backstory, you were whatever the opposite of a victim is so

But yet you've gone through one of these relationships. So can you tell us about your your relationship with your ex? What drew you into this relationship? So Funnily enough, when I first met him, I despised him. I thought he was so attention seeking. He was that person in the room that needed everybody in the room to look at them, constant jokes. It just seemed like he was trying so hard, and and I remember thinking to myself, there's no way that I would ever I could ever or I would

ever be attracted to this guy. But really what it was was this NonStop obsession with me. It felt like he came at me at a million miles per hour and there was absolutely nothing I could do. If I took a step back, he'd take ten steps forward, and he was so funny, so charming, and really, when I say obsessed with me, he would tell me to say, I'm obsessed with you. I mean, there was one day where part of the day he called me. Every seven minutes, he would say he wanted to wait outside my door

of my apartment. He he made me feel like I was his perfect woman, and he had finally met his perfect woman, and he'd been searching all his life and no girl was ever quite right. But then he found me, and now he's obsessed with me. And I thought, maybe this is what love is. Maybe this is what happens when you meet the one, is that they are obsessed with you, and you are all they can see, and it does come at you in a million miles per hour. So I just kind of went with it. Where do

you think that message came from? That possibly this level of sort of obsessiveness could be love that comes from a deep desire to be and from childhood trauma, and from my own insecurities and my own personal issues and my desire to be loved. And that idea that the obsession that calls every seven minutes, the I just want to wait outside your door. Did any of that ever give you concern, and if so, how did you push

that concern out. I know it sounds nuts, but I was never concerned because it was masked in this like super charming humor. Everything was funny and he was kind of making fun of himself of how obsessed he was with me. It was just so entertaining and funny. It was like I was watching a show and I was the star of the show, and I felt so special.

It's so interesting you say that, because when we pull the behavior out right called me every seven minutes, that behavior by itself without the context, I mean, it literally feels like so many red flags that we can't even see,

Like it just too much. It's overwhelming, right, But I think that what you've pointed out here is so wise that, you know, calling every seven minutes in the absolute obsession, if it is embedded in this structure, like you said, of almost humor of charm, when it's in that context, all of a sudden, it doesn't feel as red flaggy. And I think that what's so hard is so many survivors of these relationships afterwards will say, hey, called me

every seven minutes, How did I not see that? It's almost like one of those like find the Shape games, When the shape is embedded in a hundred other shapes, it's hard to find. But if it's the only thing on the page, obviously it would pop out. And I think that when we pull out red flags, we tend to pull them out without context. I'm so glad you framed it that way, because this obsessive stuff it almost

feels like stalking one oh one. But in that context, it really feels almost like intense rom com, you know, kind of crazy love. So I just think that that's really interesting observation how that happened. Absolutely. I also think that I had a history of choosing bad partners. I was pursuing guys that would ghost me or treat me badly,

or you know. I've been in relationships where men had cheated, and so to have someone coming at me and obsessed with me, given my past and given the traumas and issues that I have, I looked at that as Wow, finally, Wow, maybe maybe this is what it's supposed to be, and maybe I should give this a shot because what I was doing before wasn't really working for me, so maybe

I'll just let it happen. That, too, is like we sort of called this pendulum NG and it's how a lot of people sometimes get themselves stuck in a new sort of toxic situation because having had the experiences you had with partners that were almost dismissive or disconnected or or unavailable or unfaithful, the offset of this absolute obsession means that the session that obsessiveness is not only a red flag, it's a comfort because the pendulum has now

swung this entire other way that it's almost feeding and nourishing a need that wasn't met before. And very very common and many, many people who found themselves in these kinds of toxic relationships will say it was so different than the other relationships, and those relationships weren't good, that I had to believe that this one might be going in in a healthier direction. And so that that balancing

act is really challenging. And and I'm glad you bring it up that because I think a lot of people will relate to I finally met this person who was totally obsessed with me, and this is this is so different than the person who wouldn't answer my calls or ghost me or cheat on me. It totally makes sense and I think that humanizes that constant pattern that people feel like, oh, I'm so silly. I did see the red flags, and I'll say, no, I don't know that

you're silly. If when you think of what it was against and all the other stuff, it was happening within relative. It's all relative. So he was really funny. What did any do for you? When you ask generally women, you say what do you look for in a man? And of the time she will say, I want someone who makes me laugh. I used to say that, and I thought that that's what I had. I had someone who

was making me laugh all the time. And when you are constantly on a high, constantly, everything is just like euphoric when you're laughing all the time, and I'm sure there's like chemistry going on in your brain that makes it so. But in hindsight, that was definitely used because it was taken away when he wanted, and it was brought back when he wanted. But in the beginning it was just pure euphoria, just laughter. And I really again, I really thought, like I've always wanted someone that made

me laugh. Here we are that idea of you know, laughter as love bombing is so you know, I've never had heard someone sort of put it in such a clear way. We know, like people look for humor, but in essence, the laughter was a key element of this love bombing experience. Absolutely, now that I'm out of it, I feel like it was intentionally used to pull me up onto this high. Given that laughter, it's such a

big part of the love bomby. Can you talk about the other sort of love bomby elements of the early part of this relationship. In the beginning of the relationship, it was NonStop calls, texts, dates every day or multiple times a day. Didn't want me to leave his site. He wanted me in the office with him. I slept at his house every night. I was inserted into his life. From zero to a hundred. It was shopping, sprays by me,

anything I want. I felt like Julia robertson Pretty Woman, like you know again, it's these things that women dream of, You dream of the laughter and Richard gear and the restaurants. He lives a life of extreme glitz and glamour, his luxury cars, eats in the finest restaurants, walk into any store, get whatever you want, I'll pay for it. Again. It was just this constant high. The early part of a relationship with a narcissistic person is either too much or

not enough. Either it is what she is describing, which is obsessive and exciting and intense. Or it can be about waiting by the phone, wondering if they are thinking about you, wondering how soon is too soon to text back, and trying to figure out if they are even interested. And then when they show up it can be fun and exciting, and then they disappear again. In healthy relationships, that communication, rhythms and expectations are more clear and less chaotic.

Even in the beginning, like everything was so euphoric and high, and we were laughing all the time. It was like a dream, a dream come true. You say it's high, it actually is high like that much like we can go anywhere we want, We could do whatever we want. You can have anything you want. That's dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. I mean, it's it's really no different than I hate to say it, but doing a line of cocaine and it's a very it's it's hits the same brain areas.

Make no mistake. It's an interesting one to punch because you have the dopamine of this is so fun. I feel I literally feel high. Then you have this oxytocin, which is sort of the huggy hormone, like you feel surrounded and you feel loved, and you're in You're with someone who wants to be with you all the time. When you have those two neurotransmitters of neuro hormones work and forget about it, nobody has a chance to be

frank with you. When you were in these early weeks and months, and it was let's spend all our time together, that's the keys, Let's spend all our time together and doing this really really fun stuff. What would happen if you wanted a minute to yourself, I don't know, see a friend, or go to the gym on your own, or whatever it is you wanted to do on your own, or just do something you typically would have done before

you met him. That did actually happen, and I completely stopped working out, and I remember saying to him, you know, I've been living your life and I'm kind of sick of just living out of the back pack and I don't have my routine anymore. I'd love to to get back to that. And he got upset, but it was more of a no, no, don't no. I want to see you, I want to spend time with you. You're perfect,

it was. It wasn't an angry upset. It was making me feel bad for wanting to kind of like break this momentum, and why would I want to get off the train. Let's keep going on the train. Did it work? Did you feel bad? I felt bad and I didn't go m okay as time went on. Did you feel like you used to put it beautifully? I'm living out

of a backpack. I've lost my routine. And when we lose our routines, we kind of lose our sort of our true north, We lose the things that kind of keep us oriented, and we kind of get caught in this new thing. It's it's like living on vacation, which obviously it's not going to work in the long term. He said, please don't leave me. I need to be with you all the time, and he wasn't angry. He was more sad. You felt bad, so you canceled whatever

those other plans would be. But you were still living out of a backpack that wasn't going to be sustainable for a really long time. So how did you figure out that impast? Did you just keep living out of a backpack and going back and forth between your residents and his. Yeah, I just kept doing it until he said move in with me. He bought an apartment and he said, I'm closing on this date, so we just need to suck it up for a little bit longer

and then we're going to live together. And I mean, it all happened so fast, I would say the day I met him, he was saying, I'm obsessed with you. I love you. You're perfect. You're a woman that I've always wanted. Two weeks later he said he really loves me. And this is probably three or four weeks, and he said, we're going to move in together. Fast. Yeah, very very fast.

I was with this person for nine or ten months, and I try to explain to people that nine or ten months in the world of a narcissist feels like a lifetime. It was like dog years. Yeah, it's like it's like dog years, exactly right, because even three weeks you're moving in and it's I love you and all that. In a way, in three weeks you've kind of compressed a year to two years. So if you do the math on that. So three weeks equals two years and you were together? Did you say nine months? Ten months?

So what is that that? How many weeks is that? That's like forty weeks, let's call that. Let's call it. Just give my numbers. Even thirty nine weeks and three weeks this year, that's thirteen years, right, That's what it felt like. Yeah, I bet, and that's what a lot of people will say. But you know what I wonder about is here, you're going through this intense experience. You're meeting this person. It's a whirlwind romance. It's it's almost

like a fairy tale. Were you sharing this with your friends? And what were your friends saying to you? My friends were telling me that they were happy, that I'm happy, but it's very fast. There were remarks about it's very fast. It's very fast. But the other thing is is this person as a public figure, this person has a blue check on their next to their name on Instagram, this person must be a legitimate, trusted person. Because I hate to say it, but a huge part of it was

like the level of trust that social media gave. He was also very open about his life on social media. You could click on his Instagram and see what he was up to at any time of the day. Like it also gave me a very weird and false sense of trust for this project. Was it as though you felt like you were you were actually seeing the real person because you were literally seeing what he was up to all the time. Literally, maybe even millions of people

were kind of buying into who he was. So it's an interesting form of gas lighting because you were doubting your reality. Like, even if you did experience something like this is too much or I don't feel comfortable, millions of people think this is cool, so I would have to be wrong. How could millions of people be wrong exactly. I've never quite articular it. Did it just like that? But it has throughout this process and even through the process of coming out of this and healing from this

of was I crazy? Was I wrong? In my experience? Because there are a lot of people out there that that love him. In this situation, the legitimacy of her partner was created by his status and his believability on social media. It in a sense legitimized him and millions of people can't be wrong, right. However, this also happens when a person gets into a relationship with someone who

may be legitimized because of their profession. Doctor, attorney, professor, corporate executive, to name a few jobs where people may believe but they are in a professional position and if I have an issue, it must be me because they seem legit. People need to trust their intuition, their gut. It doesn't matter how many letters someone has after their name or how prestigious their job is. Emotional abuse and

manipulation can be perpetrated by anyone. They would say they loved him on social media in your life together in the nine months, like the nine months, which is again thirteen narcissist dog years, I guess whatever that was. But the nine months isn't a short period of time. Nine months is in a long period of times. It is interesting, though, a lot of folks we talked to on this podcast, nine months to a year was really where it all. It became so clear some folks were lucky and got out.

For some people they stayed in. But they're like, at that point, okay, I see this clear, no doubt, And I understand that a lot of folks on social media, we're sort of propping up this image of him as

being all that. As you look back on the relationship, the nine months of the relationship, and obviously, you know, we understand why some of those early red flags weren't perceived as such, But as you look back, what were some of the other red flags that jumped out at you that now you're like, oh, absolutely, this was a red flag. And I'm very clear on that now that

I'm out of it. There's so many. I remember the first time he completely snapped at me, and it was over something so small, whether we can we're going to check in the luggage or take it on board, and he just completely snapped at me. I sat there in silence for about thirty seconds, and then he went back and it was immediately back to funny, charming. I'm so sorry I did that, And I remember thinking, wow, there's a whole other side that I haven't seen. And then

it started happening more frequently. He snapped a couple of times in front of his brother. I remember definitely red flagging that at the time, but he always had an excuse and he always covered it with more humor and charm. It was always so sorry, I had a tough day, You're the most amazing woman in the world. You know, it went back to more dopamine, more dopamine. I went

back on that high. I remember he would drive these insanely expensive luxury cars and spent so much money, but was struggling with money, and I used to questioned him a lot about it. To keep up in appearance. Was a huge red flag for me. Another one was his addiction to social media, complete addiction. If you get every every single like, every single comment, he just read how much people adore him, and that was a huge red

flag for me. He was in love with his own show, and as I as the relationship went on, and I really got to understand that it is a show, it was a production that he was putting on. He was so in love with this production that he was putting on. What was the goal of doing all that? He really wants to be famous, to be fame, just famous for the sake of fame. Famous, And I used to say to him, for what you need? You know, normal famous people are they saying or they act or they have

a church tour, like what what? What is it? And he used to just say, just I want to be famous. But he didn't tell you why he made it seem like work. I was the one that was pestering him to get off the phone, but he's working. This is but never clear on the why of the famous. The reason I say that is I remember many years ago

I was consulting with someone to the team. Now. Somebody was very very narcissistic as part of this group, young man probably in his twenties or so, made late twenties, and his goal singularly is I want to be famous. I want to be famous. And I kept pushing tell me the why of this, like, what's the I could understand, for example, why a singer would want to be famous

because they want to sell albums, you know. I could understand why the actor would want to be famous so people would come see the shows or films they were in. But same thing didn't really have any famousness. I think actually though that he was might have even been trying to become an actor, but really just wanted to be famous. And finally cracked him on. What this person said was I want to be famous so I never have to

be alone. And I had similar reaction. I said, oh, that's interesting, and we could work with that, and then we continue that what does it mean to be alone, and and and there was this deep, deep loneliness. But the ideas if you're famous, you were always stuck in people's minds. People would always want to be with you because you're famous. And it cut down to that deep insecurity of well, otherwise, why would someone want to be with me? But nobody with that kind of personality would

ever be able to articulate that. Right, But the fame then becomes its own form of defense. In essence, wanting to be famous is just a manifestation of grandiosity. Yeah. Yeah, that's so interesting that you say that, because another red flag that I had was he was never alone. It was even if I needed to go out of the house to run to CVS to go get something, he'd be like, no, stay, he could not did not ever

want to be alone. And if he was alone, he would pick up the phone and call someone, anyone to come and meet him. Can never ever be alone. That's so interesting that the two go very much together when you think about it. Our depiction of famous people in our culture, as they always have like these groups of people around them, these hangers on, these helpers, these as just dencies. You know, again, you famous people always seem to be sitting in a group, and I think that's

just because that's what we see. Maybe famous people spend time alone. I don't know when a famous people to know that, but I think that there is this idea that to be famous for the sake of being famous is definitely a grandiose defense without it being a means to an end of person. I want to be famous how I can, everyone will buy my clothes, So that kind of thing is just I simply want to be famous. It's really really fascinating. So there's a lot a lot

of red flags. Some of them you describe, like, for example, the snapping, then the quietness, and then the going back. That sequence is really really interesting to me because it's so confusing. If all he had done was snapped and didn't course correct in a way, you'd almost be like, Okay, this is just not a nice person. They're ray g

they're snappy. But the snap in the correction is so confusing, and it really drives that cognitive dissonance and that trauma bond of oh, they didn't mean it, they caught it right away, they know what they're doing because they immediately apologized. That's a really tough one. In some ways, it's almost worse than a person who snaps and then just keep snapping, because that just feels bad. But the snap and the

correct that's tough. Yeah, it makes me feel like he was working on himself, maybe even like he knew it was wrong, and it was very much let's just forget about that and forget that happened. So I felt I felt almost pressured to Okay, we're having fun, we're laughing, we're on the train, we're on the happy train. Let's let's come on, get back on. Yeah, exactly. And he was setting it up that way because if he kept saying rag d and snappy about the luggage or whatever else,

your mood would have changed too. And he wasn't very he was very invested in your mood being up. If your mood was up, then it was a mirror of his mood being up. And so it was a really challenging dance. But yeah, and then this idea that you said, I want to change myself to make this work. It's so interesting you went there too, because that's a to trauma bonded pattern. I'm going to change myself and then

this will be fine. Is that a pattern you've had all your life or is that something that was new to this relationship. I would say that that's a quality that I've had in romantic relationships. Yeah, I would say so right. And it's one of the hardest things for survivors to work on because we can't be completely stubborn origins. I'm not going to change one thing about me. But then it's how much do we relent and change everything about us? Like how to hit that gray in the middle.

It's really really hard, you know, I think, especially for women in our society. So I also think that I was so convinced, meaning that he had convinced me. I was so convinced that this was my person. But I felt like I had to sacrifice things that were on my supposed checklist because he told me that this is my person. He told me that he is my person.

And this is what love is like it is a million miles per hour, and it is euphoric, and this is this is what you've been waiting for, what he's been waiting for, and and whatever idea you had in your mind of what love is, throw that away because this is it, which makes sense because how many people walk away from euphoria? Right, Why would I? Why would anyone?

You know, It's it's almost someone saying, Hey, you're here in this place and there's plenty to eat, and the weather is perfect, and there's a big, beautiful everything you've ever wanted. So you want to walk over to this other place that's more uncomfortable? People like, no, I'm good. So that's the challenge. So the last question I want to ask you is, again, it was a euphoric start.

And while we could sit here all this time later and look back and say this was a red flag and that was a red flag, but now we recognize it's really hard to just pull these strands out of something that's so complex. It was euphoric. It was euphoric.

Nobody ever wants again, nobody walks away from euphoria. But what was the first thing, What was the first behavior that punctured that sense of euphoria and made you say, whoa, even though it was euphoric, and even though it would go back to euphoric, what was the first time in behavior that came through that made you sort of doubt the whole enterprise. This would have to be when I first found out that he cheated. Okay, that'll do it.

That was the first time where the the image cracked and there was a permanent crack there, and I realized, I'm part of a show. I've been lied to, and I can't unsee it. I can't go back now. I mean I went back, but but I I couldn't unsee that. I think that the not being able to unsee it, That's what I was getting at, is that the I can't unsee it and this wasn't good even though you physically psychologically go back to the relationship. It's not that

there's a penny drop moment and it's done. It's that there's this moment of like, oh I saw this. I can't unsee this. You say, I was in a show, so it was all this, But there was actually this other side to the story. It's like somebody has a favorite author or something and then they come to find out they did terrible things, and you're sort of like, can I read their books anymore? And I, what's this

real story here? Is that you see? That's right? So it actually wasn't even the cheating that I couldn't unsee because I think I had invested so much into the relationship that I would have overlooked the cheating no matter what it was what I had seen, yea. And what makes so much sense about that too, is that, as you said, the betrayal the cheating, and that would be a probably a deal breaker for most people. However, adding

to that, it was multiple people. But like you said, the disgust over everything this person portrayed themselves to be was absolutely a lie. And there was so much reinforcement in the relationship, especially in the beginning of the low bombing stage. He'd always say, I'm solid, I'm never going to embarrass you, I'm never going to cheat on you. It would be my worst nightmare if you cheated on me. There was so much reinforcement of his hatred towards and

ideality and how that would be his ultimate nightmare. The old Shakespeare line goes, the lady doth protests too much. Methinks we can take some liberties with Shakespeare here and

say the dude doth protests too much. Shakespeare understood reaction formation hundreds of years before Freud wrote about it, which is this idea that the thing a person protests so vigorously or as a holy roller about is actually the very sin that they are likely to be committing, and narcissistic folks are notorious for their reliance on reaction formation. Simply put, it's the narcissistic shame, losing out like slime

and coming out as bizarrely self righteous pronouncements. Told me a story about how he'd been cheated on when he was sixteen, and it traumatized him. He never wants to feel like that. This is you never need to worry about that with him. And any time I would question it or you know, he was on his phone a lot, so if I wouldn't question it, if I would doubt him, he would be like, you need to sort yourself out, because I've already told you that I don't do that.

If you look hard enough, I'm sure you'll find you're torturing yourself. How easy the lies came off, how natural it was to him. That was something that I couldn't ever unsee either. Chilling. It's chilling when somebody can lie so easily. Yeah, I think there's a real difference when you're in a relationship and someone cheats on you, and I don't know, there's this isolated incident, but when there's

a cheating that has this extreme level of deceit. They intentionally purposefully went out and cheated and then lied to you about everything they were doing and then blamed you for even thinking that. It's just layers and layers of deceit that really kind of like fumbled me. And that was the first moment of like what am I dealing with here? Because this isn't this isn't normal, it's not normal, it's not healthy. And you were dealing with two things.

You were dealing with deceit and gas lighting, you know, so lying would have been him saying I'm not cheating or I didn't never talk to that person. That's lying, right. The turning around and blaming you and painting you as someone who is something wrong with her, and accusation and all of that, that's the gaslighting. Right. You can show a liar evidence and say yo, here's the text message, but your garden variety average liar will say, okay, yep,

got it. I didn't want to lose you. They might come up with an excuse, but then they'll cop to it. He didn't never cop to it and blamed you. That mixture that makes a gas lighting, And you can see there's a difference. Like you said, being lied to, even about a one night stand wouldn't feel good, but it wouldn't feel like this. This is the stuff that tears out of your soul. My session will continue after this break. Was there ever a genuine apology, of genuine awareness, of

genuine empathy. I mean, now I know that there wasn't because he had no intention of stopping. I hear that, obviously, and that tells you there was zero self awareness, zero recognition of the harm. But at the time you confront someone with something like that, I mean terrible betrayal within a relationship, and not like you said, not just something mild. I mean it was intense. Was he ever able to say I'm sorry, I hurt you, I did do this again,

that genuine accountability, genuine apology, all of that. Yeah, it seems like it. He was saying, you know, he's so disgusted with himself. He can't sleep, he can't eat, he can live with himself. I can't believe he'd done this for the woman of his dreams. He's going to do everything he can to fix it and prepare it, and I need to come back. I didn't end up packing a bag and leaving, and I think me leaving made him want me back more. But you see, though, how

he's focusing. I'm so disgusted. I I me, me, me, I feel so bad. I feel so bad. Right, you see what I'm saying. It was all likes his awfulness, And then is I can't believe I've done this to you? Is very different than identifying your emotions. I hurt you, I betrayed you, I traumatized you, I broke trust in you. Identifying your experience where I can't believe I did this to you. It's sort of almost like the afterthought after him going after his litany of being disgusted with himself,

but he still wasn't taking responsibility. He was just basically doing a sort of a soliloquy about his shame. Yeah, and I remember a huge red flag moment in that cheating confrontation, the first cheating confrontation. I said, how many times has this happened? And he said, would it make a difference in what you thought of me? And I said, yes, it actually would, And he said then once And I knew in a moment it was a lie because of

how he said. I knew it was a lie, But I remember thinking, you're concerned with what I think of you. And that's such a key issue in these relationships and those moments when the the betraying behavior gets uncovered. Their immediate pivot is not too I have done so much harm. I need to get so much help. I need to make amends to this person. I need to take responsibility. It's how do I preserve how I look to her into the world. That's the immediate go to, because that's

the preservation of the self kind of thing. That's that's how they're going to preserve themselves with no regard for what this did to you. But the experience you had, which I think is more important to sort of focus on, is such a universal experience. Even when, like you said, my organs all dropped, even when that rush of air coming through your ears, where you feel like I can't even see my future anymore, people want to keep their

life going. It's almost like a tornado coming through your house. It's not what you want. You don't want your house to be blown up by a tornado, and that's what happened. And if it could be in another way, you just would have done anything to just keep your house intact, keep your life in tact. So in those moments, while many of us would like to think we just grab a bag and run away, there's a part of us that still crave having our life. I just wanted everything

to work out for me. I wanted the happily ever after that. I was promised that I had put all this this energy into and I was working on myself, you know, slowly changing myself here and there, slowly adapting my wants and my needs to fit him in this life that I was told was going to be my happily ever after. I wanted it. At that point, I I was invested. How many months in did this happen? Did you learn about this betrayal? About six? Okay, so six months. In six months is not a short period

of time. It is especially how much time the two of you were spending with each other. I mean, when you think about it in that way, the intensity of the contact you were with each other all the time, and six months in you're actually really considering constructing a future with this person. So there was a lot of future talk. A lot it was always talking about my engagement ring, talking about who we'd invite to our wedding you know, should be by a second property on the

West coast. Should be. It was always talking about our future all the time. What what kind of cat would we get? What? You know, we want to have a daughter. Now that I look back, we barely talked about anything, actually real life things, but so much of it was talking about the future and what we would do, or how obsessed he was with me, or how funny things are, or jokes like I don't know what his dreams and aspirations are apart from to get famous. He doesn't know

what mine are. Now that I look back, there was barely any conversation. It was just so much about the future. Lots of future orientation can be a red flag and a part of love bombing when the conversation is consistently veering to someday this and someday that, especially if it's grandiose or exciting. This does what lots of love bombing does. It distracts you from what is happening right in front of you. It also builds in the nefarious impacts of

future faking. So what starts to happen with all of this future focus is that a person starts getting so invested in a future narrative that they may be more reluctant to leave a relationship that is showing lots of problematic patterns. It's sort of a personal Ponzi scheme where you're holding out for some big payout that is never

going to come. Another red flag was I had a moment where I hadn't spoken to a family member of very long time, and they sent me an email out of the blue, and I sat on the bed and I open the email and I looked at it and I started crying. And he walked in the room and he said, are what are you doing? And I was like, you know, I got a I got an email from that person and you said, you're making me very uncomfortable. And I said, I'm I'm making you very comfous that

I don't know what to do when people cry. I mean, I see on movies that people hug people, And what do you want me to say? You're making me very uncomfortable right now. That was also something that cracked the perfect picture because for something that was so important to me emotionally, that they could not figure out how to have any empathy and be comforting or in any way that that was something that really really hurt me. Actually,

I won't say it hurt me. Some people characterize people who have narcissistic personalities as being allergic to other people's emotion, whether it is the vulnerability rendered from not knowing what to do, the contempt for emotion, or the shame evoked by witnessing other people's emotions and which may ping the

narcissistic person's own unprocessed insecurity. Many people in narcissistic relationships have described that moment when their sadness or other vulnerable emotion was met with coldness and even disgusted, because when you love someone, you would be there for them, and

when they're not there for you, it's hurtful. That's the lack of empathy piece, But it also speaks to that lack of intimacy, right talking about shared aspirations or aspirations goals, that's kind of sharing versus just talking about like the future and a wedding and a ring, but instead like really focusing on what the two of you are about.

That's intimacy. And whether it was sexually you said, intimacy was Lacking the ability to be present with someone else's feelings is not only empathy, but it's also intimacy that inability to talk about real things other than the sort of persona he had constructed. There was just no intimacy in this relationship. And and in a way then that got played out is where set became this sort of sort of strange, predatory place for him. And that's one

more example. Infidelity in any ways is an outsourcing of the intimacy in a relationship. Right, so now you're taking what should be a connected space and breaking it up into other people other spaces, all of that, and I just don't think there was any capability for intimacy. So having this kind of predatory sexual relationships tracked with that. And you know, people might say, how the heck would somebody always be in a bad relationship? I don't know.

An arranged marriage, uh, a person who doesn't have financial options, a person who married quickly but they're in a culture or religion or something like that. Word. I think it's not an option, and it's always bad. It's just an always bad relationship. That's very different then a person that's in a relationship that goes between euphoria, passive aggression, sometimes rage, a lack of empathy, deceit. But that euphoria is always

the carrot on the stick. And so people in these relationships they want to go to those days, and if you push a fast forward button, even euphorious not the

right word. Sometimes people are married and they have a home, and they have children, and they go on vacations and they go to school plays, and they like all of that, and they have enough of those really good days that the other stuff that feels so psychologically uncomfortable almost feels like an opportunity cost something they have to endure to have those good days, right to pay the price. And that idea of paying the price is the court of

the narcissistic relationship. No healthy relationships like that. And I think what's so sad is we we frame that as compromise. Oh well, you get those good days, but all those those bad moments, that's just compromise. That's not compromise. That psychological servitude. So you can have some good moments, that's not compromise. Compromise is we will have pepperoni pizza tonight, even though I want sausage. That's compromise. But I am going to endure abuse as a pathway to get to

a good day. That's this, that's this thing we call narcissistic abuse. Absolutely, it's a different game. Absolutely, my session will continue after this break. I wish i'd known this. This is where I think the conversations like this your your podcast. But it's so important because I had, if I'm going to be honest, no idea about what emotional abuse was at all. I thought that abuse came in one form, and that was physical. I had absolutely no

idea because I wasn't educated. And I think that if I had been, how can you look out for flags when you don't know what you're looking for, you know what I mean? I just wish that I knew this before. Thank you, And the challenge has been though honestly, the systems aren't willing to recognize emotional abuse. Does that make sense? I think that. Listen, somebody's physical abuse isbody punches someone. They've broken the law. It's a criminal offense, right, that's

physical assault. So all the systems can mobilize because a law has been broken. Once we get into the area of emotional abuse that does the same harm to somebody as physical abuse would in a relationship, there are no mechanisms available and in the absence of those mechanisms, most people, law enforcement, courts, employers, you name it, will say, ah, sometimes things are difficult, or oh, you know how it

is oil and water. They'll minimize it. I mean, it's a gas lighting of the experience, whereas a person just doesn't understand that that what you're describing, the I will endure what I need to endure to get to the next good day is actually abuse, and it's manipulative, and it is cruel, and it does damage to people's mental health. But even to this day, frankly, mental health practitioners still struggle with this, like this just a relationship. They don't

even understand what's happening to them. Give them a roadmap. But if they say, oh, okay, I get it, but I like the good day so much so I'm gonna enjoy the abusive days, then that's them thing. But we're not giving them a roadmap, we are not teaching them that this is not what it's supposed to be. So you're absolutely right, it is about knowledge getting out there, But it's also a whole world that needs to take responsibility. Movies and TV shows that in some ways glamorized roller

coaster relationships that's got to enter absolutely absolutely. I've been talking about this a lot recently that in the mainstream media there seems to be this almost obsession of the entertainment of these narcissistic characters and these roller coaster relationships and and things like that. Nobody's you, nobody's using the word narcissist, nobody is calling it what it is, And I feel like we're all missing out on this major

teachable moment here that we could help people with. But instead, where you seeing it as entertainment, we're not only using it as entertainment, we're soft pedaling it. You know, he's intense, he's demanding, she's difficult. What are the challenges is? And again, this is going to be my nut to crack. It's my problem, I feel is that people don't want to use the word narcissism because they don't want to get dinged for diagnosing someone. And I've said this a thousand

times everywhere I speak. Narcissism is not a diagnosis. It's a description of a personality style. But in the litigious culture we work in, people are afraid that the person who has that personality is going to jump down their throat, and they're gonna have to be higher an attorney to push back on it. Okay, then if you don't want to use the word, let me give you a narcissism decoder ring. So when someone tells you someone's really intense,

they're saying narcissistic. When someone saying someone's really demanding, they're saying narcissistic. Like all these things are code so they can avoid saying this other thing. And you're absolutely right. We glamorize. So I think of all the movies out there, the finance guy who swaggers in and does a bunch of cocaine, and we're watching them with almost this sort of sick delight, like, oh, this is entertaining. This is

not entertaining, especially when it's a true story. Somebody was harmed by this person, and even the idea of a relationship can go up and down. And that a guy is really charming and charismatic and breaks you know, it was like breaks through the defenses of a really sane, well put together woman and winter over with his charm and charisma. That is the foundation of so many romcomps.

And I'm I great, we just we we just glorified love bombing, and we just glorified that whole mess instead of if this is how somebody's acting like a fool run away and when you think about a seventeen eighty one year old watching that, and that's the template they're getting at the time they're dating. I'm trying to be the counterweight to all of that. Everyone wants to think they're also the exception. And then added to this mix

is people bring their own histories in. So if a person had a parent like this who was negating or ran hot and old, or gave them a silent treatment, that child goes into an adult that's still trying to work through that conflict. And so when somebody rolls up an adulthood, then they you know, they repeat those those patterns. And so the media is obsessed with narcissism. They don't want to call it what it is. The other day, I must have read four news stories, not even like movies,

like news stories. Every single one of the articles was about a narcissistic person. Not one of the articles used the word. And they were just trying to figure out how to explain this person's behavior. Said the explanation simple, it's their personality and it's not going to change. That's really interesting. How you say about narcissism is a description of a person at a diagnosis. No, it's not a diagnosis at all. Listen, there are other personality words out there,

are words like agreeable, introverted, extroverted, neurotic. Those are all personality staffs, right, So I I could say you seem like a very agreeable person. Don't diagnosed me. You're not saying that narcissism is in that same bucket. In fact, the counter right to agreeable nous is disagreeableness, which the clinical word for that is antagonism, which take that one step further is narcissism. And so we're just playing like a little sort of semantic labyrinth here. But that's all

it is. Nobody's getting I mean, I think sometimes we might shame an agreeable man off he lets people walk all over him because he's so agreeable. And I know nobody's telling how dare you call me an introvert? How dare you call me an extrovert? It's the same thing with narcissism. It's it's not a diagnosis when you put it with the words narcissistic personality disorder, that's a diagnosis. That's not what we're talking about here. I don't know if they have a disorder. I don't care if they

have a disorder. The personality style in and of itself is not good for other people, that's a fact. And I'm actually a big proponent that they should get rid of the diagnosis altogether. It's doing more harm than good. And those folks aren't getting into therapy anyhow. That's so interesting.

I was thinking the same thing. And I was also thinking about, how is it hard for mental health professionals to even diagnose this, given that they're such talented liars and lying is so so easy, And I don't know. I was just wondering about that, whether is the diagnosis even helping in any way, because it is such a difficult thing to diagnose. It's a very difficult thing to diagnose. You need to spend four or six, sometimes even eight sessions with a client before you can really start ruling

out that it's not this. It's not this. Remember, people with this personality style aren't that likely to get into therapy, you know, if they're, for example, vulnerable narcissists, the ones that are more sort of resentful and sullen and angry that life doesn't go their way and victimize those folks might show up looking a little depressed and anxious. But by and large, if a narcissistic person gets into therapy

is because their life is falling apart. A spouse tells them they have to get into therapy, a workplace requires them to, or it's court ordered, or a publicist tells them to. Those are the reasons and narcissistic people get into therapy. Now, sometimes it was clear. They'd come in the first minute and they'd say, oh yeah, nice diploma is doc. What do you think with your fancy U c l A degree, you really think you're gonna be

able to help me. Let's say, I bet I'm going to be the most interesting patient you had all day. I'm like, okay, I'm clear on what I'm dealing with. And then the lack of empathy and the other stuff would show. But that other stuff, you know, for people who aren't that in your face, it takes a minute. And let's say a person comes into therapy and they're depressed.

They're gonna say, I've been really sad, I can't sleep, I can't pay attention, I hate my life inside of the first fifteen minutes, we're gonna have a pretty good working model that this person is struggling with depression. If I ask a client like, do you have empathy? They think they're the most empathic person. They are not going to answer that question accurately, and so we are having to look for the way they tell stories, and so it takes a while to glue all of that together.

You see what I'm saying, And so that takes a minute, and I have to say that by the time I'd figured that patterns. Some clients it took me six months. Some clients I figured it out in the first hour, and most people it would take me twelve sessions before I was confident. But then we have a sort of

a This is more of a technical issue. If you put that down as a diagnosis and a person's chart, especially if they're using insurance, the insurance companies push back because it feels like an untreatable pattern, so they don't want to They're like, Okay, this is not gonna work again. It needs to be in therapy forever, so we don't

want to pay for that. So the therapists will often use a diagnosis that sort of suits what the insurance company wants, and the therapist has in their back pocket that they know that this person has narcissistic personality disorder. And finally, clients are entitled to their clinical records. So the person says, show me, and I've had this experience of telling folks, I think give narcissistic personality disorder, I am glad that I was sitting closer to the door

than they were. Let's just put it that way, because they were insensed. They were incensed, you know, and called me obscenities and this and that. So it's a it's a very uncomfortable thing to communicate about. So narcissistic personality disorder maybe the one diagnosis other than psychopathy or anti anti social personality disorder. Those may be the only diagnoses where they do more harm to other people than to the person who has it. And that's not what these

diagnoses are designed to do. They're not designed to put a name to something that harms other people. And since the treatment outcomes with these clients are not traditionally good, it takes a very long time, skilled therapists, years and therapy, a real commitment to change. It's a unicorn. So narcissistic personality disorder needs to go out the window. Narcissism is a personality style like any other. If people say, well, I don't like that personality, so I'm like, that's on you.

I mean, but it's just personality style. Like I said, it's no different than extra version or agreeableness or anything like that. So that's the real issue, and that's why nobody's talking about it. And for whatever reason, people just don't want to step up and understand it. And it's it's a lot of awareness building, but it's a it's a sort of also mental health. People don't want to talk about it either, which is what often stops the conversation.

So interesting, Well, thank you for being the one that is talking about it. Talk about personality styles. That officially makes me a massochist, because I have to tell I agreeable massacists, But I um, it's it's a tough mountain to climb. But if you had had this roadmap, if you had had this blueprint to understand this is what this was, you may have very well gotten out earlier. You may have not put yourself in positions that felt so uncomfortable. You may not have tried to change yourself.

I mean, there's so many other choices you would have made if it was made clear to you that this is what you were dealing with. So it's it. It's just a blueprint. So you're like, this is about So I didn't know about narcissism at all until I came out of the relationship and I was talking to somebody and they said, you know, this sounds to me like

like a narcissist. You read this article, and I can't remember what the article was, but it's a very basic article that kind of had like a checklist, and I felt like the article was written about my relationship. I felt like every single box was checked off the list,

and in my experience, it can be very textbook. And if I had known that, and if I had at least known the things to look out for, if I at least known what love bombing was, for example, then when it was happening to me, I could have at least been referring to that mental checklist. And maybe maybe not, but maybe I would have made some different choices and looked after myself a little bit more and saved myself

a lot of trump. I couldn't agree more. And I think it is hard because what I always say, it's very hard to tell people to walk away from something that initially feels good. You know, that's a tough sell. It's a tough sell. So you then got out after nine months, you got out of this relationship. Can I ask you what was your process of healing like after

you got out of the relationship. I was totally confused, totally confused because he begged me to come back after the cheating, told me that he do therapy, he would do absolutely whatever it takes, go to the ends of the earth to have me back. I'm a woman of his dreams. And then out of the blue, one day he broke up with me. That's interesting, And I was so confused. I was just in this total state of

shock and confusion. Literally like someone had pulled a carpet from under me, and I just didn't know what was happening. And I was just left in this cloud of Okay, So the world as I know it is completely not here anymore. You know. The day that we that he broke up with me, we were shopping for an event we were going to later that week. We were talking about getting a house in l a. We were talking

about the wedding. I didn't understand how you could go from doing all of that and kind of seeing everything was about the future of the future, and then he discarded me, and it was in that state of confusion and shock. I think it really was shock that somebody threw narcissism at me, and I couldn't believe that was kind of what was making sense of this whole scenario. But initially it was shock and deceit because I felt like, more so than than anything else, I felt like I

had been lied to. I had been sold this future, this talking about constantly talking about the engagement, the wedding, the children, the house in l A, all the all these things, talking about all of this, and then I was thrown away and I felt like this wasn't normal.

I've been in many long term, committed relationships with people that I have loved and that have loved me before, and it doesn't just end suddenly when everything is heading in one direction and they just suddenly break it off and abandoned ship that had never happened to me before. And I felt like, this doesn't make sense, and I need to kind of make sense of it. Before I can turn the next page and move on to the

next chapter of my life. And in that process and learning about narcissism, I really had to grieve everything that I thought was real in that relationship. The person that I loved wasn't the person that I loved. They put on a damn good show for me, and I was a part of that show, and I fell for that show, and I fell in love with the person that I was watching and that he was portraying to me. They never loved me. And that moment hit me actually because

he'd tried to be my friend. So he did this incredibly abrupt and drastic breakup, but then continue to write to me saying, you're my best friend. I'm going to love you forever. He also has a history of going back to women that he had been with, and I was like, I'm not going to be I'm not going to do that. I don't believe and break up, makeup, break up, makeup that never works out. I'm not doing that.

And I was with my actual best friend and I said, read this message that he sent me, and she just gave me the phone back and she said, that's not your best friend. I'm your best friend. And I would never do that to you. I would never hurt you and deceive you. That's not what love is. I would never do this to you. And that's when it kind of hit me that he never loved me, that the entire relationship was a facade, it was this public image

when he was living a completely other life. That there's a huge difference with telling someone you love them and you want to commit to them and you make a mistake and telling someone you love them and you're committing to them but you have absolutely no intention of committing

to them. That's deceit. And that's what I had been dealing with and kind of understanding that and going through that grieving process of accepting that that person that I love never existed, that relationship that I that I was in never existed, There was never any love for me. That was a really tough process. There was a lot of shame and blaming myself for things and I'm so stupid for not seeing things, And I mean, if I'm

going to be honest, I still go through it. I struggle with this word recovery because I don't know that if this is something that I'm ever going to recover from I'm a different person now, and I feel like I experienced a trauma that changed me, and I think I will carry part of it forever. I'm so glad you said that piece about recovery, because I think that healing recovery from narcissistic abuse isn't about going back to how you or you evolve from this and you change.

I actually do believe that there's a unique strength that emerges from people. I do think it it's a loss of innocence. Will never view love stories the same way again. I think it definitely changes our capacity for trust in many ways. I think most of us who are survivors will say, I don't know that I'm never going to get to one percent trust again. I think everyone then the best cases, it will be somewhere in that plus, but has been taken away right. We now forever see

the crack in the sculpture. I refuse to see it as a bad thing. I think that in many ways, survivors of is narcissistically abusive relationships have the capacity to become incredibly discerning. There's a wisdom they learn not to suffer fools, and that can have tremendous value in their careers, when they meet new people, the invitations they accept. You know, you you start to learn like, yeah, now I'm good, I'm staying home, and people like, what do you mean

I'm thinking now I'm good? You know, you really really learn, You learn your your firm hand. Chicken, say, I gotta jump in a way that many of us never believed we could set boundaries. You just learned to not suffer fools in a really unique way, you know. So that's its own kind of recovery. But I do think, you know, what gets lost is innocence. So it's I do believe these relationships are coming of age in a way, and

what emerges is something quite warrior like, you know. And I think people break out of a sort of a princess fantasy and move into more of a warrior fantasy, which is something I want for all people, and certainly all women, because I think that we forget that we have that that strength, and I think strength and women

is often pathologized. I think survivors of narcissistic abuse have the real opportunity to say, actually, strength is my forward facing characteristic now, but it takes a long time to get there. And the things you describe the self blame, the self doubt, the ruminating. That's all classical fallout of having been in one of these relationships. Well, now I

know that the next girlfriend was already prepped. There was an overlap, obviously, and she and I. After her relationship with him ended, she actually reached out to me and we had the same relationship. We had the same nickname, we had the same sex position. We compared screenshots of text messages, the same text messages, the same emojis during the love bombing, the same shopping spreeze, the same jewelry. It was just copy and pasted, and she was already

prepped and ready to go. After that crack in the image, I didn't admire him anymore. I was doubting him. The trust was broken. He wasn't Mr knighton Shining Armor coming in on a white horse anymore. He was mediocre guy on a donkey and I was trying to build him back up, but that image was tainted, and I think that it was easier to get someone new than to rebuild with me. That's what I think, and I think that's all it was. Were also no longer a source

of supply. You know, once your supply gets stale. They want fresh groceries. And but the other dynamic I saw happening there was he hoovered you. You said I'm out, I'm leaving. He whoevered you. He pulled you back in, and I'll change, I'll therapy all this the future, fake future, fake all the things he did. You went back. That gamesmanship and that dominance, that's a part of every narcissistic relationship.

In a way, it's like when the when the spoiled child managed to wangle away the toy from their sibling, not because they want the toy, but because they just wanted to get it away from the sibling, and then they toss it aside. But that dominance move is why once the hoover works, that's exactly when they get disinterested. It was almost like a game, can I get her back? I got her back? Okay, And on top of that, he had already set up new supply, so he got

the gratification of the checkmate, got her back. Games done, and I can start a new game. But that discard of like I was able to do it. They do it because they can. It's also very consistent with that because that's the dynamic it's it's the dominance in these in these relationships and the false self, the false facade, and many people will they'll leave those relationships in a

state of shock. What was I just in And I tell all survivors, I know you feel you were in a falsehood because it was a fiction on their side, but your feelings were real, and to never write off a section of your life is so it didn't happen. It did happen. You went in with an open heart and an open mind and you felt real things, but the other person was the one who's wearing a mask. You weren't. I felt like I've been scammed. Like everything I did on my part, I was a great girlfriend, everything,

everything on my part was real. It was an authentic it was legitimate. It was just the wrong person. And I had come across a con artist and that's just really unfortunate. And finally got out of a place where I would stopped blaming myself and kind of just see it as like an unfortunate thing that happened, and it

is an unfortunate thing that happened. But like I said, it's also a place you someday as part of the growth in the healing is that I did learn something about myself in the most painful way, and you're trying to pay it forward. So thank you again. I'm so grateful for your time, for your sharing your story so openly with us. No, thank you, thank you for even having this show. I think it impacts so many people in all the right ways. So thank you so much,

thank you, thank you so much. Here are my takeaways from our conversation. So many survivors walk away from these relationships wondering was any of this real? Was this whole thing just a big lie? And then from that emanates a doubting of your own emotion? Did I even feel that? Can I even trust my feelings? You can trust your part of the story, because when we love someone, we believe them they're being deceitful or unempathic or manipul relative.

Doesn't mean that your process was false. However, it can feel like the entire thing wasn't real, and so people struggle with grief as though they are grieving something that wasn't real. Grief is about loss, and loss needs to be processed. People in narcissistic relationships are grieving what they believed to be true, what they hoped to be true their vision of the potential they saw in another person

and in a life together. This is ephemeral stuff and can often be hard to articulate to other people or even in therapy, where people may just say, hey, you're lucky, you dodge that mess. However, when these relationships end, you don't feel lucky. You feel lost. Grief must be processed, and even if you can't articulate what the loss is,

you did lose something. In my next takeaway, is social media always a bad thing in a relationship, No, but when it is a preoccupation, when posting about the relationship is more important than the relationship itself, When the validation of strangers matters more than the partner in front of them, When they are so enamored of their image, their life, and their posts that they can spend hours staring at themselves and the feedback of their adoring followers, that's a problem.

Social media can be a real playground for narcissistic people. In my next takeaway, one way a red flag can sneak in is when it is a correction, as she shared after a line of partners that disappeared, didn't follow up or were disconnected and detached. A partner who came along and was intense and obsessive and spoke about a future and wanted to spend every waking moment together was

an antidote to the other people she had met. This swinging pendulum can mean that even when their behavior is too much and concerning, it can feel like a counterweight and a relief to past relationships and past partners. This means that obsession, instead of being seen as a problematic pattern, which it is, may be experienced. As she called it,

maybe this is what love feels like. Unfortunately, too many people have been exposed to a steady stream of princess movies and rom coms that romanticize obsession and intensity, which means these patterns get missed as the red flags that they so often are. In this next takeaway, narcissistic relationships

represent a loss of innocence. When they happen in childhood, they qualify more as developmental trauma, and when they have been in adulthood, it's a puncturing of a balloon around love, relationships, family, trust, and hope. It's going from a starry eyed view to a more circumspect one after you experience a narcissistic relationship and you really get it and process it, your worldview shifts, trust erodes, you start feeling like you are always wondering

if someone is working the angles with you. You may feel jaded or cynical. I will keep coming back to this point. I think cynicism after you have been through a narcissistic relationship, cynicism is actually wisdom and may speak to the beginning of the process of seeing things clearly and no longer making justifications for entitled toxic manipulative behavior until it happens to you. Most people don't understand how

being in a narcissistic relationship reshapes our psychological bedrock. In this next takeaway, many people feel a double shame when they relent to being hoovered and are then promptly discarded. This is a sort of classical gambit in narcissistic relationships. The hoover is about control, and if they already sorted out a plan B, it became more of a showing to themselves that they could do it and then jumping to a new source of narcissistic supply where they will

do the same thing again. By the way, as her story shows us, remember you actually approached a rigged card game as though it was being played honestly, you couldn't win, and there's no shame in that when the game is fixed. It is for this reason that giving yourself time after an our scissistic relationship ends is so crucial. These wounds

are beyond the hurts of an ordinary breakup. These are complicated breakups after which people need a minute to get back to themselves, figure out up from down, grieve the loss of what you had hoped for, and recognize that there is no shame in believing in love even when the other person was deceptive and wanting something that is so fundamental to the human experience. A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valen Jethrow, Ellen Rakaton,

and Dr Rominey de Vassola. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Mara Dela Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnaghe and Calvin Bailiff.