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The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I Heart Media, or their employees. The worst part is that he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, correct, but he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did,
and that's even way worse than money he took. In this episode, we are going to hear the story of Eileen Charlotte, who knew that swiping right could cause such a world of hurt. Now, lots of people have had bad match stories on Tinder, but this is a whole different level. The Tinder swindler managed to steal millions of dollars from multiple women from around the world, most of whom fell for his charm, charisma, love, bombing, false promises,
and ultimately his scam. Eileen Charlotte was one of the women who got caught up in the twisted story of Simon the Tinder Swindler. Simon posted a lavish lifestyle and Instagram and Tinder a well traveled, attractive, and fun loving guy, and he matched with Eileen. In the months to follow, Eileen found herself falling in love with Simon. They moved
in and planned a future together. At the same time, though, he kept pressuring her for money, claiming that he was in danger because of his business and had to hide from people who were coming after him. Eileen ended up loaning him over one hundred and forty thousand dollars, which he had promised to pay back, and she almost lost her home. He left her feeling that her own life and her family's lives were at risk. Eileen's story is
the cautionary tale of a fairy tale gone dark. Her story is no different than that of many young women. Like so many others, she's ambitious with a zest for life, and she was just simply looking for love. The Netflix documentary The Tinder Swindler made waves around the world and changed Eileen's life overnight. The Tinder Swindler is not just a story of an online scammer. It's a story about narcissism.
This story teaches us that when you combine the manipulative ingredients of narcissism with the hope of a love story, you end up with a broken heart and an empty bank account. Eileen is here to tell this story and how she, in her fashion, triumphed in the end. We are going to break down love bombing and the overall architecture of the narcissistic relationship, as well as her path of healing from not just the financial debt, but the emotional debt. Instead of glorifying the grifter, this is the
story of the survivor. So welcome Aileen. It's so nice to have you. Thank you so much, and thank you so much for having me as well. Of course, I mean, so could you break down for us, aside from the sort of surface level things, what attracted you to him and led you to fall in love. Now, he was very interested in me on a personal level, what I was doing, my friends, my family, the way I lived, and it immediately created a bond because he had a
different lifestyle. But still we we had a great connection because he was still like a down to earth guy who was also looking for love, and that's what made me really attracted to him. That is such an important thing to note when it came down to it. What I'm hearing is that it was really that he was deeply interested in you. We all know that charm and charisma and confidence can often attract us to someone, but we can't underestimate curiosity. Simon was interested in Eileen's life
and wanted to learn about her. Charisma maybe dazzling, but intense curiosity can be seductive in a way that leaves a person not even thinking about red flags. I was traveling a lot for work, and he always came to visit me. For example, when I was in Barcelona for work trip, or when I was in London for a work trip, he came to visit me, which is also very special because someone is just flying over the earth because he's so busy and still he made some time
for me to see me and to meet me. So that also made me feel and made me fall in love with him, because yeah, it really felt that he was interested in me and not my looks or I don't know, so I'm sure it was all of them, right, you know, it was all of that he was interested
in you. But coming back to that point though, the way the story has been told is that it was all very flashy and exciting, but what he was bringing to the table really was that he was interested in you, and you were interested in him, and he was very atentive. And I think that we underestimate how important that is. No matter what a person brings the table, gifts, experiences, whatever, it's that really focused attention interest that somebody has in
us that's really really appealing. So that's a universal theme, right, yes, yes, of course, And it doesn't matter where you are with a person, because for example, I also had a small dinner in a small Italian restaurant and we were just eating pizza, so it wasn't all fleshy like it's been described in the documentary as well. Now, can you tell us about how it was when the two of you moved in together. It was really nice in the beginning. We had a lot of fun and I could finally
like really be together with him. And because sometimes when you're traveling a lot, he was over there, I was over there, so sometimes it was really difficult to see each other, but now he was actually there all the time, And did you find yourself growing closer to him at this time or were there any issues that came up.
He build up the story about his enemies and that he got attacked, like we are also seen in the movie that he and his bodyguard were attacked, and he created this story about the enemies who wanted him dead, and he needed to live a little bit undetected. So that's why he moved in with me, because yeah, everything was under my name and nothing was under his name. He was also starting to use my money, so yeah,
those were the difficulties I needed to face. But he made his company sent me a check to cover all the money he um he was using from me, So I thought everything was fine. Yeah, of course of course you did, right. I mean, that's why wouldn't you write it's right there, it's right there in black and white, there's a check. We talk about these red flags as though they are so obvious, like these big neon signs
that anyone can see in retrospect. The idea that he had these enemies out for him feels outlandish, and her covering and paying the bills the suspicious but narcissistic people are so skilled at taking bizarre and shady stuff and putting it together into what feels like a plausible narrative. And Eileen cared about him, So whenever we care about someone,
we make the pieces fit. So let's go back and talk a little bit about love bombing, right, because in this kind of a relationship, we see it every single time, and love bombing is a sort of really intense at times even overwhelming, early phase of the relationship. Now it can look different in different kinds of relationships, right, but it basically is the early part of the relationship is characterized by something that almost feels like a fairy tale
or a fantasy. It's that intense, it's that overwhelming. When you look back on this relationship with Simon, what parts or what experiences would you identify as the love bombing in the beginning because he started to ask money for me after almost seven months, But he was so generous in the months before. He was so open, and he called me up every day, and also every time when I made a transaction to him, he was so sweet.
If I got the money, and he was bombing me and bombing me and bombing me with love, and I want to marry you, I want to have kids with you, I want to be with you, I want to grow old with you. But at some point when I, for example, didn't got the money or confronted him with like, what are you doing? I'm sending you all this money and it's never enough for you, then he always got angry and mad. So as a woman in a relationship, you always want to go back to the part when it
was nice. So you really hope to get the feeling again of the love you had. Okay, so there's a lot we can unpack here. When a narcissistic person feels satisfied or safe in a relationship, they promised the sun and moon to a partner. They make future faked promises, things that they say will happen, but they never will. However, when the narcissistic person is tense or their needs aren't being met, that's when you see the rage and the manipulation.
If you don't know what you are dealing with, this can be really confusing. How long would you say that that love bombing period lasted with Simon? I think it was the whole period of me having a relationship with him. It's difficult to describe because in the beginning everything was good and he stayed sweet all the time because he
needed something from me. It's interesting what you're describing here, Eileen, because when we think of it from the sort of framework of the more sort of toxic or narcissistic relationship. I'm so glad you brought this up, because we often think of these are separate phases. There's love bombing and then things go wrong. But what was happening for you is something that happens a lot is the two are interlinked, and he had an agenda, right he wanted something from you.
In this particular case, it was money. In another relationship it could be something else, but in this case it was money. So when he saw that all of his sort of charming, attentive behavior got him what he wanted, It got him the money he wanted to keep his scheme going, then he would almost relax, and in that relaxing he would become very very sweet. I want to marry you, I want to grow old with you, all
these things that are very very seductive to hear. But any moment that you would have pushed back, Why do you need it so fast? Or why do you even need this money, immediately you would see anger. So it's such an interesting way that this happened because you had both the love bobbing and the devaluing phases happening at the same time, and you were pulled back to wanting. That sort of idealized seductive time was almost there all
the time, Like it was two masks. He was, in essence, wearing two masks, the aggressive, angry, you know, sort of rageful mask when he didn't get what he wanted, and this really seductive, loving, attentive mask when he got what he wanted. And that was the back and forth. How long until you connected that? Did you ever connect that out? When I give him the money, he's a really nice guy. When I don't give him money, he becomes really aggressive. How long did it take you to figure that out?
I think after a few months of giving him money and made several transactions to him, I found out that every time when I didn't gave him money, he got
angry and he always put the blame on me. And that's when I started to realize that it wasn't actually okay, Because in a relationship there are two people, and if you like someone, you don't want to make them feel bad, and he made every time when I, for example, couldn't send him the money or didn't send him the money, he really made me feel bad that it was my fault that everything would be blown up. Interesting. Blame shifting
is one of the most common narcissistic patterns. Narcissistic people cannot take responsibility, will not take responsibility, and anything that goes wrong is blamed on other people. Their grandiosity and their need to be all powerful means they cannot take ownership of mistakes because then that means they aren't all that. Blame shifting is a way for them to maintain their grandiose facade. And then I started to realize that there
was something wrong. I can't imagine this happening, given how strong and resolute even I'm you know, seeing you to be in this conversation. Was there ever a moment you ever thought like, Okay, if I keep giving him the money, then this relationship is going to run well Or as soon as you recognize what was going on, you said no,
I don't want to do this anymore. Yes, because it's not fun, because he really makes you live in fear with his enemies and people who are hunting him, so he really makes you live in fear, and at a certain point, losing all the money and living in fear, I knew that I didn't want it anymore because this is not the love I prefer, right, I mean, love and fear actually are not good flavors together. It doesn't it doesn't feel good to a greater or lesser degree.
All narcissistic relationships are about fear, and the person in the narcissistic relationship list in a constant cycle of trying to please them and never anger them. It can be an actual fear of their rage, or it can be a fear of having to really accept what this relationship is, so people just keep trying to please them until they can't. Eileen, how did he sell that story to you so that when he asked you for money it didn't seem alarming.
He always had projects which he was calling and referring to as operations, and there was always a new operation to support in a way which he needed money for, or he needed money for flight tickets and hotels and traveling. So those kind of things I mostly sponsored in a way. When he would ask for the money, would you be able to say, can I have a little bit of time to think about this? Now, that's the problem with these type of rodsters. They don't make you think rationally.
For example, if I would ask my friend for money, I can always say to her or him like, I will give you two or three weeks to think about if it's okay or if it's not okay, just think about it. But with him, he would rather like to have it yesterday then tomorrow. And then he's bombing you and he's calling you all the time constantly and constantly to push you so far that you don't even got the time to think about anything, just to think rationally.
And that's the biggest problem with this type of frauds. That you're in a state of mind and you want to help someone, but if they are really in need and they are shouting at you that they are in a very dangerous situation, yes, of course you're going to arrange the money. What I'm hearing from you is that that sense of urgency and danger if I don't get this and he's telling you something terrible is going to happen, right, So you feel this empathy, but you also have this awareness.
This is a lot of money. But how do you think all of that, that sense of this is dangerous, this has to happen quickly, or something terrible is going to happen. How do you think that blocked you from seeing the red flags, seeing the deception. Everything went so fast I cannot even call it a roller coaster, but I think I was in twenty five roller coasters at
that moment. Yes, every time there's a different story, every time there's a different operation, every time he's in need, there is something happened, a death threat, something which can maybe even affect me or my family. And with these type of things, you really feel sorry for someone, but you also want to protect yourself as well. In a way, it seems like part of how he was sort of selling the story was he had images showing sort of past episodes of things that look like danger and violence.
The story was somewhat believable, but then he really used that idea of time urgency, yes to pressure you. It reminds me of people who are thinking of making a major purchase and the salesperson is pressurely. If you don't buy it now, you're never going to get it. If you don't buy now, the price is going to go away in half an hour. And that's not exactly the conditions under which to make a great decision. But it's not like you were trying to buy a car. You're
in a relationship with somebody and being intensely pressured. When you would call him out on that intensity, saying you've got to slow down, or this is too quick, or I need to think about this, what would happen? Then he got angry. You are ruling this. You are the one who is blowing everything up because I need the money now. I cannot wait because then this will happen, or this will happen, or I will die, or I will lose everything, or you will lose me, or I'm
going to kill myself. And that one was like the worst of course, because you love someone right here, This is a great example of the escalated manipulation a narcissistic person will use in a relationship to get what they need or get what they feel entitled to. Each time you may try to set a boundary, they keep leveling up the terrible things that will happen if you don't give in to them. It became very manipulative. Right, So you are being reasonable, you're asking something reasonable, I need
a minute, I need to think about this. This is a lot of money. And the manipulation was it sounded like he almost doubted your commitment to the relationship. Oh, you must not care very much about me if you have to think about it and I'm about to die.
I think it's so easy for people to look at the story from the outside and said I would have just said no. But if you care about someone and you truly believe this much harm is going to come, or they even say they're going to harm themselves, and your commitment is being doubted, you're so confused at that point to show your commitment, you then end up doing the thing that you're uncomfortable with. In essence, he's playing with this idea of consent. You really weren't consenting to
give the money. You were being coerced to give the money. And I think there's a there's absolutely, Eileen, that's a really classical example of gaslighting. You know, people don't understand gas lighting. We always say it's like, oh, that never happened. We keep it simple. But what he was doing was he was testing your commitment, and while in your heart you were clearly committed, he was using that as a way to manipulate you. Yes, Oh, if you're really cared
about me, then you'd give me the money. Then, if you really wanted this relationship, you'd give me the money then, and you know I'm going to pay you back. And since he had a track record in the history of paying you back from time to time, it was believable. Yes, correct, Yeah,
because he did pay me back sometimes. And also people don't understand because I think I did maybe over twenty five transactions to him, and yes, he did pay me back sometimes, so you always have the feeling that it will be okay, there's no doubt because he already paid me back a few of those times. So it feels
like love bombing for him. And this is the case with any kind of you know, con man, is that it's an indoctrination period, like a grooming period, where they determine is this going to be a a useful person to me? Can I get what I want from this person? That's what he was in probably the first few times he'd ask you for money to see if you'd say yes, he'd pay you back, because for him, that was him
testing the waters. And then once he could see that I'm able to sell her the idea that, oh, if you care for me, you give me the money, then he knew he had you, and then he would keep that game going. And that that's every person who's like him narcissistic in that way. They will always take advantage and weaponize the other person's empathy. It's the most classical dynamic. Once they see empathy, they don't see this, Oh, this is lovely, this is loving How fortunate I am? They say,
ah ha ha he there's a point. It's almost like a little crack in a window. Here's where I can break into this house and steal their things. It has that feel to it. Yes, yes, And I think with narcissistic people they only care about themselves because, for example, at the end of everything, I was in such a bad place. I was in debt, I lost a lot of my money, I almost lost my house. But even
his problems were worse than mine. Of course, that ability for the narcissistic person to play the victim is a very classical element of that personality style. Yes, their problems are always the worst problems, always, and it's never them, It's always, you know, it's always someone else's fault. There's
no capacity for taking that kind of responsibility. And it's interesting because you said with someone narcissistic like him, it's always about them, because beyond that here, for persons that's selfish, it's always about them. That's unpleasant enough. But then in the process of everything being about them, they feel they need to destroy other people because there's absolutely no awareness
that what they're doing is harming the other people. There's literally it's actually quite unsettling to recognize that somebody was that unaware of the toll that they were taking on you, of the harm they were putting on you. Yeah. Absolutely, because for example you you can see it as well in the documentary, like in the end where I already knew that I got defrauded and I just wanted to play a bit with him. It was a bit of
my revenge. You could see that I almost lost my house and I lost already over one forty now it's up more, but a lot of money. And he felt bad for himself because he needed to sleep in a hostel. So in a way, he's always like and he's always putting it on me, And that was my fault, That was my mistake because I didn't send him any more money, and that and that's how it's always always framed. I want to go back to something we're talking about, this idea of how he used fear to motivate you to
give him money. Something bad is going to happen to him, or he would do something bad to himself, or even something bad could happen to you or your family. Right, So he really really used fear. When somebody uses fear the way he did, right, not only did you love him and care about him, so obviously you didn't want anything bad to happen to him. But as you would say, I need a moment, I need to think on this.
He yell at you and scream at you. The thing I want to understand is, did you ever have a moment, Eileen, where you thought, I'm not sure you know if this is the right thing to give him the money. But if I'm wrong and something terrible happens to him, I'll feel bad for the rest of my life. Yes, of course, because if someone is using enemies and life threats as a weapon, and you actually see, like from the movie as well the pictures that he's sending you, that he
got it dapped, so in a way it's getting real. Yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, the situation was real, and that's how he pretended to be. But so you also know deep down that if something would happen to him, that you can never regret yourself. Narcissistic relationships are like a series of bets you make. If I do that, then they do that, and then I will stay. The relationship is a series of perpetual tests and deals with the devil.
I wondered, Eileen, as I've learned about your story as I'm talking to you, is that there's this strange point you hit where having to live in fear that maybe you did the wrong thing would actually be worse than losing the money. Yes, absolutely, because in a way you can always say like, oh, it's just money, but if his life is on the line, then it's a human being, it's a life. And that's where his manipulation was so powerful, right, because you really had to sit with that possibility of regret.
Nobody likes that. That's a real huge fear for people, is regret, What if I do the wrong thing? And as you said, it's in the grand scheme of things, especially when you love somebody, it's only money, and if this stops him from getting hurt. He really had you convinced that as long as you give me this money, I can be protected, and so you wouldn't have to live again with that regret. So that was a deeply,
deeply manipulative thing for him to do. It was obviously a sort of a technique he had used with many people, and he saw that it work. He took advantage of the empathy, he took advantage of the love. He'd know that nobody wants to be responsible for harm or death of another person. He'd use that to extract the money from a person, and then when things did happen fast enough, he'd start yelling and screaming, knowing that that kind of rage is also frightening for people. Yes, yes, absolutely, my
session with Eileen will continue after this break. So let's talk about something called trauma bonding. It's how a person gets stuck in a really toxic relationship cycle. A central issue in the trauma bonded relationship is that a person is in a relationship that keeps going from great too bad, too great, too bad, arguing to happy arguing to great day, and that back and forth is what keeps a person stuck because they keep waiting for the next good day.
And even when there's five bad days, six bad days, there's enough good days to say, well, I'm really going to hold up for the good day now. It's almost you know when you go to a casino and you play that machine, pull the handle, you put in the money, and you know sometimes you get that money prize. It's like that because and even if ten times you put in the money nothing comes out, then you think, Okay, maybe this time I'm gonna get so much money, maybe
there's gonna be a good day. I think it's just so important to reflect on that trauma bonded idea. So what we're seeing here, because this pattern between Eileen and Simon was both trauma bonded but also kind of quite simple, it makes it even more difficult. If he got the money when and how he wanted it, they had a great day. He told her he loved her, he made big promises. If he didn't get the money, it was all anger and rage and threats. That back and force.
That promise of a good day is what keeps people stuck in toxic relationships just for a brief moment. I mean, what was your when you were growing up in childhood? What was your family life like? Like? What was your parents marriage? Like? My parents marriage was really great. They grew up in a very loving family. I had child and my parents are already together for over fifty years. Now wow, wow, that's okay. So now you just throw me a curveball, girl, and I'll tell you why. This
is why your story is so amazing, Hili. I mean, I think I think the story has sort of been mistold, like for oh, she gave her money away. But there's so much power to your story because here you were, you grew up. You kind of defy the stereotype. Right, we always think, oh, the person who's going to fall for someone like Simon is going to have a terrible childhood. Their parents had a terrible marriage and they had a
terrible father, so they go with this bad guy. You're saying, that's not it at all, right, your parents had a loving marriage, for that's lasted a long time because it's a loving marriage. You felt loved as a child, so you actually believed in love and right and I so the trauma pouting for you was interesting because we often think of it as historical in a person's life. They had this sort of difficult relationship with their parents, so
they reproduce, recreate that relationship and adulthood. That wasn't your story, not yours. Was you believed in love? Yes? And I was looking for love as well, and I'm still looking for love and I don't think that's a bad thing. But what is not really told well in the documentary is eight years ago now, I um, I was in a very terrible accident. I got robbed by two guys and beaten up very bad. So sorry, yeah, and I
got PTSD from that. And the worst thing of the situation with Simon is that he triggered back the pts D because he knew about it. He knew that I was scared to be followed, he knew that I was scared to be alone in the streets at night, and he used that to trigger back the PTSD. And in a way, because the PTSD got back, he put me in a sort of state of mind which it's not you because, for example, if I look back on all the worstep messages right now, three years four years later,
I feel so stupid. But back then I was in a state of mind which it wasn't me, And especially because he brought back to PTSD. For example, he knew that I was scared to be followed, and every time when I saw someone behind me, I was always a
bit nervous when someone was behind me very close. And at a certain point, he was living at my house and we were driving home and we came into the street of my house and he said, please check every car, please check, Please drive three rounds through the street to check if we're not followed. And with those type of things, he brought back the PTSD. And I think that's the worst thing he did to me. First of all, I'm
so sorry. Thank you, thank you for sharing that story, because you you bring up something so important here, Eileen, which is you had had this, this this history of trauma, right, and that this kind of a toxic relationship, narcissistic relationship can actually reactivate all of that. So, like you may have worked through that trauma, but trauma is a funny thing. It sits in our bodies, it sits in our minds.
It's still they can be reactivated, right, It's always it's all and in some ways it always is going to be there. But as you get away from this kind of a toxic experience, you might feel like you have more tools to cope with it. So Eileen's talking about trauma here, and I want to go deeper into this. Post traumatic discomfort can be activated when we experience anything that was similar to earlier in past traumas we've experienced.
In Eileen's case, being followed or being reminded of being followed really brought up those old traumatic experiences for her. When that traumatic experience is triggered, any of us would feel anxious, on edge, and even panicky. And the horror of severe narcissistic relationships is that they have no problem using your own trauma as a tool of manipulation to
get what they want. When somebody is invalidating you and manipulating you, and more than anything, leaving you feeling scared, all of that is going to come back in a flood. If you talk to any trauma survivor that could have happened to them twenty years ago, they could be having an experience now and saying, I'm feeling all of this familiar your stuff, like I don't even feel like i'm
myself now. What's so awful and terrible to hear about in your story, is that not only did he weaponize your empathy, you're a loving person, You cared about him, you didn't want him to suffer, You gave him your money. The part to me that's beyond unforgivable is that he weaponized your own history of trauma. And that to me, is such a horrible thing to do to a person because it really becomes such a place you know you
can control them. And this goes back to this, we'll have to think about love bombing in a different way. As he got to know you and learned about you and was so interested in you, that's how he learned about your history. And learning those things about your history, he thought, ah, I can actually get a response, I can get what I want if I bring up this part of her past. And he used that to throw you off balance and make you more mini relatable. Interestingly, Eileen,
that's not a crime. But in the psychological court I live in, you better believe that feels like a crime to me. Yes, absolutely, And the worst part is that it can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, correct, But he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did. And that's even way worse than the money you took. So in this next session, I lean we're going to talk a little bit about how you found him out, basically,
how you figured it out. So tell us because this is I mean, like I said, you are, you are a rock star in my eyes. I will tell you. I watched it. I was like, Oh, this girl has got it going on. You are more courageous than I. And I say that with the utmost of respect. Clever, courageous, and I really want you to share with us about how you found out about who he really was and how that led you to put all of the pieces
together as well. Thank you so much for the compliment, because it's the best thing that I can hear from my action. I was at the airport and Prague where I was actually with him, and he just dropped me off at the airport and I opened up my Instagram and I saw his face coming up on my feet and I clicked on it, and there I saw this whole article from a Norwegian newspaper with two girls in it, better known as Nila and Cecily, and they were talking about Simon and his actions, what he did to them.
He defrauded them for a lot of money, and while I was reading the article, I immediately knew because everything was so similar to my story. I immediately knew that the story was the girls put out there was true. And still I don't know what I was thinking, because I was still in contact with Simon and he just dropped me off. So he started calling me and I send it over. I sent over the article and I said,
what's this because I just read it on Instagram. And then first he started to scream at me, like how did you get this? And I was just it just popped up on my Instagram. And then he said, no, it's not true. My enemies are paying these girls. And then I started to realize immediately that his enemies were the girls and the people who he defrauded. And that's when the ball started rolling and I started to contacting people under a false identity to see because yes, he
made me scared of my life as well. He knew where I live, you know where my parents lived, he knew where I worked, so in a way, I was still scared of my life, but I needed to have like some sort of truth and more proof that he was a fraud. So I started to contact people and after I knew. I went to the police, and then the police said, we cannot do anything for you right now. And I was in a very difficult situation because I lost so much money. So here's a chance to go
deep on gaslighting. The most sure fire way to break through gas lighting is when other people see what we see or experience what we experience. Even in the classical film Gaslight, what saves her is one other person seeing what she is going through and helping her feel less insane. Once II Leen was able to start putting the puzzle pieces to get other and recognized that she wasn't alone,
she was able to take action and save herself. People in narcissistic relationships can easily become isolated and stuck in the narcissists version of reality, and that can be dangerous. So I made him a suggestion, and I said, well, I don't have any more money anymore, but maybe you can give me your clothes, because I knew every time when I was with him, he was wearing the newest collections of all the big brands like Gucci for sach Cabana, and every time it was like the latest collection, and
I couldn't figure it out why that was. But then I understood that all of these things he bought with my money. It's exactly right, it's yours. Yeah, so yeah, it was mine. Everything what he was wearing was from me. I suggested him to give the clothes to me because he was still in hiding and he wanted to be undetected. So then I said, I can sell your clothes for you, and that's what I did. Good for you. Well I didn't sell it for him, right, Well, you got the money.
Now I want to come back to how you kept getting revenge on him. But before I get to that, when Eileen, did you start identifying Simon's patterns as narcissistic? How long did it take you to get there? I think when I really actually saw a pattern was when I had the clothes in my house and I didn't send him the money. That was the moment when I
saw the back and forth between his personalities. That's so interesting because you know what's fascinating, and again such a classical part of these stories is people say, Dr Revenie, tell me how I could identify narcissist right away, and I'll say, oh, it's gonna take a minute for you. It took almost the entire course of the relationship. Then when it was clear, it was clear and you couldn't
unsee it. But it takes a minute, right, if somebody's being charming and interested and interesting and nice and and all of these things, you're not sort of going through head saying well, let me look for the narcissistic pattern, just saying I'm in front of a nice person. And despite even the back and forth and the money and the confusion, it was only then when you had the clothes and you really saw it very quickly, how he flipped between the good simon bad Simon good Simon bad Simon,
that it became clear. And I think it's important for people to know that sometimes the stuff, even with somebody who is as big as a scammer and a manipulator as he is, it took a minute to figure that out. And a lot of people say, why didn't I see it sooner? Why didn't I see it sooner? And they get angry at themselves because it takes a minute. Just
so people could be kinder to themselves. It's important to know that when I found out that he was a fraud, I think it took me like one and a half week to actually land and know that the fraud was real, but to see the patterns of his narcissistic personalities that took me a bit longer. Yeah. You know what's interesting, though, Eileen, is that you did get some justice. You know, even though he only did five months of a longer sentence, there was some justice, right. Most people who go through
narcissistic relationships get no justice, right. The person just goes it, gets to go off and go off into the sunset. And really that's actually everybody who ever came before you in Simon's life had that experience of no justice. I think we could maybe make an argument that this is maybe a half justice, right, because you're still carrying the wounds and the pain of having gone through that kind of manipulation and psychological abuse. Yes, absolutely, I will never
get the justice for the mental part. The only thing that I can do is make the best out of it and be as strong as I am and just move forward and just move along as well, and to get over it. I think what's amazing is that you know, you shared your own trauma history. How he pretty much used that trauma history against you to draw more money out of you. Two because he created such a sense
of fear. That's why I really want to speak up, because I know that a lot of women but also men of course, in these type of situations, in this type of relationships, if they don't see a way out, it can be so much worse because there are a lot of people who don't want to speak up, don't want to tell their friends, or don't want to tell
their family. When you are in this type of situations, a lot of people will isolate themselves because of the shame, because of the hurt as well, and the moment you get isolated, it will only get worse because then you are still alone with your thoughts. No one is around you to help you, to support you, to be there
for you. And that's why I really want to speak up, because I think that it's important to tell get like maybe one or two people in your friends or maybe family, where you are going to tell your story, because without any people around you cannot survive. Narcissistic abuse thrives in isolation. Many survivors become isolated by shame, fear, and by the
narcissist themselves. Hearing these stories and sharing these stories is the only way for survivors to break through this shame and recognize that talking about it is a key to surviving these relationships. Did you ever ask your family or friends for help. Yes, the moment when I found out, I immediately talk to my mother and I went to see some of my friends, a few of them, and I told them my and from that moment on, they
were so supportive because I was isolating myself. I didn't go out for dinner because I didn't have any money. I didn't go to birthday parties because I couldn't afford a gift. I didn't do that already for more than
a year because I couldn't afford it. Yeah, so I also had the feeling that I had to tell them because I didn't want to lie to them anymore, because it felt like a lie every time I needed to make up excuses for not going somewhere, And that heard me the most, because I was lying to the people who do love me. It's like you feel like you're being punished twice. Not only did you go through the relationship, but now you don't even feel you can be open
and honest with the people you care about. So I think it's incredibly important to push back to that shame. You didn't do anything wrong. We will be right back with this conversation with Eileen. You know again I lean your story. It played out throughout the world. The world had so many reactions to it. As me, as a person who studies narcissistic abuse, who works with survivors of it, I see it as stories of narcissistic abuse aren't as simple as we like. You came from a very happy family.
You simply believed in love. Somebody took advantage not only your empathy but your trauma. However, so many times we think of survivors of narcissistic abuse is very passive, and you showed how actually active and how much of a agent in your own destiny that you really really were to this day and in your own healing. So what's next for you? It's so important for people to hear that no matter how bad a story someone goes through, there's something to be learned and there's often something to
be paid forward to other people. I am talking to publishers right now to write a book because I really think that my experience again can help people absolutely get out. And then I thought, okay, and what do I want to do more because I cannot sit still. And then I thought, what do I really like? And that's drinking wine? Okay, okay, And so you're building a business around that. Yes, I'm
starting to create my own wine brands. Oh great. I hope it has the words of survivor or fighter or something like that in there, because I have to say so many times. As a person comes through a survivorship story and recognizes that they came out the other side, that's when you realize it's time for me to start enacting my dreams. Because if I could come through that and still retain my sense of who I am, then
this guy is the limit. And I have no doubt love will come flowing into your life because I think for many people, once they get themselves to such a good place in themselves and wiser from going through one of these relationships, you're actually in a magnificent position to welcome healthy love into your life, but also be able to call those red flags out early and say, yeah, no, you might have been nice to me, but you yelled at me, and yelling at me it's just not gonna work.
By yes, absolutely, I already experienced it in the past three years because yes, I am dating, but now if it doesn't feel good, I'm just The first thing I would say is by good for you. Yeah, and unfortunately I had to go through this to see it now.
But what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Correct. My hope is that people will see your story, and for some people, they'll see your story and that will be enough to stop them from actually feeling that they have to give in the first place, and say, oh, actually, I can set a boundary because now it's very clear to me that even with someone incredibly wise and smart like yourself, that this can happen. So I think that's
where these stories become really important to share. Yes. Absolutely, Also, the word just came out, but the CEO, the real CEO of LD Diamonds, check Levia, the daughter of Lef Levi, if she has reached out to us after the documentary came out and we started up a collaboration together and we're going to release a bracelets. Yes, there are two small rings coming together and the bracelet is called Stronger
Together because as the group we are stronger Together. I love there are two small diamonds in it as well. I love that idea stronger Together and get some diamonds in there to sort of stick it to the diamond King and the King of diamonds, because really, you're the Queen of diamonds, my dear. What's so striking to me about how ei Leaned story was told was that it actually ended up with the world trying to find ways to demonize her and the other women who are harmed
by Simon. People were characterizing them as gold ors, are foolish or naive. This was a big public story, but the kinds of things that happened to Eileen happened to people in narcissistic relationships all the time. People say to them things like didn't you see this coming? Or why didn't you just leave? Or there's two sides to every story.
When we invalidate the survivors of these stories, we give the narcissists a free pass, and then it emboldens other toxic people and leaves the people harmed by these relationships less likely to seek out help or talk about what happened.
We have to stop glorifying the narcissists. I know that everyone might like to think that they would be too smart to fall for a grifter like Simon, but I have to tell you, while most of the people I work with won't get their stories on TV, all narcissistic relationships are a hustle and if you think you aren't vulnerable, then you may be the most vulnerable one of all. Be careful. That was a great conversation with Eileen, and here's some takeaways based on the many things that we
talked about. First, narcissistic and toxic people really do use urgency and time to force you to make uncomfortable choices, and if you hesitate, they frame it as you not caring or being committed. Just like when someone is trying to sell you something or make a bad deal in a rush. When there is this sense of urgency that should be assigned to slow down, and if they decide to leave the relationship, then it was probably a hustle. The best prevention and survival tool and gas lighted and
narcissistic relationships is to avoid getting isolated. That can be hard to do, but cultivate friendships and other close relationships so you have another glimpse into reality. As Eileen said, without any people around you, you cannot survive. As our third takeaway today, I gotta remember that Narcissistic relationships really are a process of indoctrination. There are enough good days and things that make sense in the relationship that we
keep getting pulled in. Listen, nobody asks you for money on your first date. It takes a minute to identify these patterns, and that's why it's so important in any relationship that you take your time journal any red flags that you observe, and the first time the relationship really feels uncomfortable, wait a minute and talk it out with people that you trust. Thank you so much for listening. Lastly, make sure you subscribe on I Heart Radio and please
rate this podcast on Apple Podcasts. This show was produced by executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith Fallon, Jethro Ellen Rakaton, and Dr rominey der Vassila, Also producer Matthew Jones, Associate producer Maura Della Rosa, and our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnahy and Calvin Bailiff.