Overcoming a Narcissistic Husband and the Church that Enabled Him

The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I Heart Media, or their employees. I think because I had forgiven so much, he received that as permission, and so he was continuing to act out as long as I think he could keep it secret from me. But I look back on that is when I started to really begin to empower myself and take ownership and not self

a training more. Has the narcissistic person in your life ever been enabled by the church? So what do you do when you are married to a narcissistic person? Throw in some sex addiction? But you are part of a church that extols forgiveness, supporting your husband no matter what,

and your feelings just don't matter. We are about to hear one woman's experience of growing up in a family that was about keeping emotions quiet and devoting yourself to the church, then being love bombed, marrying young, being betrayed, and having to navigate the complex waters of religious enablers who emboldened her husband's acting out. When you throw religion into the mix, narcissistic relationships get a hell of a

lot more complicated. In this episode, we are not using the name or identifying our guests in order to protect her and her family. Let's listen to her story. I want to thank you so much for being here and sharing this story because it is such an important topic and it hits themes that might be some of the most difficult for survivors. So again, thank you so much for the gift of your time. I'm really really grateful. Thank you so much for having me. Dr Ownie, thank

you happy here. So your story is so fascinating to me. Let's start from the beginning, and let's start about how a relationship can be impacted by a church. I think that it's almost like, I mean, forgive me for being crude. You were like in a threesome with a church. The church just kept being really intrusive and getting involved in your relationship in a way it should not have. I've never thought of it that way, but there definitely was

a triangle going on, like lots of triangulation in the relationship. Absolutely. Can you lay us out a framework about how you and your husband met in Bible College and what originally attracted you to him? Yeah, we met. He was a year younger than I was, and he came onto the scene and was super charismatic and a leader, and everyone loved him and loved his family, and so we were really brought together by this vision I think for ministry

and doing tons of good in the world. He served people, he was great with kids, he was great with people of other cultures. He was great with people of all ages and just really loving them and serving them, and that was so attractive to me. I think I wanted to view good in the world too and be involved in ministry, and I think in the Bible Belt in the Midwest. In order to do that, as a female, I had in my head that I needed to attach myself to a man. So to be a pastor's wife

was such a noble calling. And he was the guy on our campus and so we connected and he was very charming and we were really this like power couple. People would call us that he was great on a stage and I was really smart and could come alongside him and serve. And I think even in that role, my job was to be his helpmate, right, so to come alongside him and serve him and help him be successful. And even when he got his first ministry job, people

would say it was a two for one deal. He was the pastor and I was the wife coming on who could serve and be involved and and help. But I was also had really strong leadership capabilities, and I was an educator and so I was really good with students as well, so him as a youth minister. So we were just this this power couple together for doing good in the world. We were very young and got married.

I was twenty two, he was twenty one. But that's what you do at Bible College in the Midwest, like a ring by spring or your mrs degree, like it's a joke. So I needed to make sure that happened. I didn't want to leave college being alone and locked that in and we were on our way to do mission in the world together as soon as I hear charm and charisma. You know that ma ma alarm signal

you hear in movies. It's almost instantaneous for me because you said you talked so much about charm and charisma, but you're twenty or twenty one year old self would not have known that, just like most people's twenty or twenty one year old selves. And yet it's such a tough one, right. Not all charm and charisma always leads down a narcissistic or toxic pathway, but a lot of it does. But it's the opposite of a red flag.

In fact, for many people it's engaging. But based on the story you were sharing, I had a couple of questions, where did you get that message? Because you were as committed to this idea of ministry and the goodness you could do through through your commitment to religion, where did you get the message that as a woman, that you really could only actualize that if you were attached to a man. The term power couple is something we often

hear being used to describe people in narcissistic relationships. I sometimes wonder if it's a way for the narcissists to sell the idea that together you are doing something powerful. But my experience, it's code for one person gets to be out there and get all the glory and the other is meant to support that. And the term I guess it's designed to make you feel like you share the power with them, but in a narcissistic relationship, you

never do. I think that was just a story that I grew up in in the church that I was a part of, and it was the men who had leadership rules and women were the wives to the not to the side, like they were very active, but just

not in the leadership roles. I remember, even when we both had graduated with ministry degrees, I had even graduated with um a bit more as I had an education degree from a secular university, and he was moving into his pastor's job after graduating and being ordained, and I had requested to be ordained as well, because I was like, I want to do ministry with my life also, and I was told no. So they ordained him, but not me because I was a female and most likely I

would have kids and then not be doing ministry anymore, and I could never be a lead pastor of a church. And so there was like an explicit I think conversation with me of like there was a limit as to what I could do in leadership and in service because I was female and married. So it really was this, if I want to do what I want to do in the world, and I need to attach myself to

this man. And I wanted to attach myself then to somebody who I think I saw it was going to be successful in that and do a lot of really good things in ministry. I think to some extent it worked for me too. I think I was intimidated by carrying a lot of the responsibility of leadership and insecure

in myself. There was this by attaching myself to somebody else who carried that the charm, the charisma, the confidence, I was attaching myself to that, and so I could lead from the shadows, and that worked for me a little bit. Also, so was your family also like a missionary family and very committed to the church. They were very, very committed, and I'm really grateful for what I was raised in and really good value use and serving the world.

And then my parents were both educators and so lots of volunteering, like it was church in school, and so they gave their life I think, to serving kids and families and then in the church. So I was raised in this world of service and wanting to make the world a better place, which is a really good thing,

and I'm really grateful for that. I think the shift for me that I look back and I see now was the communal narcissism that played into that of that by serving people, that is what makes us important or great. But yeah, my family was very much like that too. Okay, alright, so they must have liked him. They loved him. All these things are making and one thing on top of

the other hard. Yes, I mean everybody loved him. I was the difficult one to be because I would see things and not put like, not put up with things.

I saw things in our family that weren't working. I'm more like the stereotypical role of escape, and so I think to some extent, even by finding this person who everyone loved, where I had felt like the scapegoat in a lot of ways growing up, now I was attaching myself to someone who almost like by proxy, I could be loved too, because everybody loved him so much and accepted him so much, and he was so good around people.

But yeah, my my family loved him. He became like the third child of our family, and it actually really helped our family dynamics because he was super fun and so that took a lot of pressure off in our family, Like it was, it was really great to have him around. Did you like his family? I did at first. So his family was very beloved in the Christian college campus that we were in. They had gone to that school as well. I did because I think that I saw

in them what was missing in my family. So he had a really great relationship with his mom and they were in ministry as well, and so think, um, I saw in them like this really great family, and I wanted to escape I think from my family of origin a lot of ways. And so it was like, oh, I'm going to marry this guy who has these really great values and it was really wonderful and comes from this really great family. At least what I saw at first on the surface was just this ideal of what

like what I was missing, I guess. So yeah, at first I really loved and they were from a different country and so there was like a romantic piece of that. So yeah, there were a lot of things that I loved about his family. Did they like you? That's a great question. I think they did because of what I could do for him. And I needed to be a helpmate to him. So as long as I was supporting him and serving him and being a very good wife,

then then it was I was acceptable. What created conflict was when I began to step into my own leadership. It was not acceptable for me to supersede him in any way. So there was almost like a competition, and so I needed to be in my place and be his really good pastor's wife, which I rebelled against a little bit and like small little ways, and so that

began to create conflict. And then the further we got into the relationship and the more that I realized the dysfunction and the codependency and I would speak up, the more conflict that created and created more and more boundaries because he was very in mesh with them, and I don't think that I realized that beforehand, and so as a wife, I'm like, no, like leave and cleave. So we're like, you're like, you're here, and so we need

to set boundaries. And I would very much assert myself in that way, and that didn't go over well like he was. I feel like brought in as a third child into my family and just beloved. But I was always his wife. I see. So that's a role in a way, and it sounds as though they wanted you to step into that role of I don't know, being

his cheerleader. Cheerleader, yes, but in a very like codependent way, as if like the cheerleaders were out on a field helping the players, like really game to what I'm hearing, to make sure I'm clear. His family, potentially the whole church people around you expected you to be fully subjugated to him. Yeah, they did, but with a weird like nuance to it. Have entered into your calling, lead and things,

but not so much that it would supersede him. So it's like, be great, but not too great, right, but the part be great, don't be too great, and also take care of all of his needs. Yes, yes, do all of that, do all of that, all of that right, and not have a need? No, no, no. And if I did, I needed to fix that myself, because you're right, it was all about his needs. Narcissistic relationships are solo acts, and the rest of us are at best. Backup singers.

In her story, it seemed like everyone was in on that. His family, her family, the church all supported this idea of him being front and center, which made it harder for her. But this is every narcissistic relationship. There just isn't room for more than one person on their stage. It definitely is at best sort of a supporting role. I would even say you were sort of like an really involved extra in this play. It was very much like you said, you all existed to keep him front

and center. I want to go back to the beginning of your relationship, because you've described him as charming and charismatic and a leader, and everybody loved him and he was beloved, But what was the beginning of the very beginning of your relationship, Like I understood what you saw in him, but what was actually the day in the day out, early on, even when you just first met. Going back and thinking about it now, knowing what I know,

I see all sorts of things. And so when we first started to get together, there was a strong emphasis on being a physical with each other, and coming from a very conservative Christian space, that should have been a red flag, but I justified it, and I had been in a very long relationship in high school, and so it just felt very normal, I think. But I look back now and that wasn't an alignment I think with on the outside saying who I guess it has a

pastor and certain things like that. A relationship existed very much in the public realm, so we didn't spend a whole lot of time together one on one, so not a lot of dates just us, and I think for me, I justified that there were a lot of couples where we were and people getting very serious very fast, and so people would ditch all their friends and just cling to each other, and so there was almost even like we're better than all the other couples, because look, we

still hang out with everybody. I look back now, and it was because the relationship was empty. There wasn't an intimacy there. There wasn't a lot of talking, so it really was about who we were publicly and who he was publicly. And when your relationship is based on this

mission to other people, then that makes sense. So our relationship was in public, doing mission trips together, being involved in just things together out in the world, but not a whole lot of just us, or we would go back to my parents house for the weekend and come back, and I wouldn't hear from him for a few days because it's like, we just spent all weekend together, why do we need to talk? And I'm like, we're dating, we have a serious relationship, or he would do trips,

somebody't contact me or things. But I think I just justified as like, oh, he's where he is. I had a story for everything. And I love that about him. I love him that he is just a hundred percent where he is. So when he was at camp or doing different things, he was just a where he was And so that's okay that he didn't connect with me or reach back out to me. So I made a lot of excuses, I think, to justify the behavior. The justification now it sounds like you know more that is

part of sort of a trauma bonded relationship. You're also very young. But you also you raised something here though, which is around the issue of narrative. And I talk a lot about this when it comes to narcissistic relationships. These relationships get to stay alive because of the stories

we tell ourselves about them. So you crafted it into not only a plausible story, but a really really healthy story, you know, so he's very present and connected rather than viewing it as a real lapse and into to see and in a way, he almost needed a group to be in a relationship with because an individual can't bring that much narcissistic supply. But you wouldn't know that. Most people wouldn't know that. And in fact, I think your intelligence almost strangely got the best of you because you

were framing it as well. All these other people, they're moving so fast and they're pairing off, like you know, nobody's business, and look at us were evolved, We're able to actually have this relationship and not do this sort of simple thing of paring off and not seeing that as an issue with intimacy, which obviously would then come back,

I'd imagine throughout the relationship. Yeah, and in fact, I've been coming from my family of origin and being escapego I continued that narrative in a lot of ways too. So in the relationship, I was the one who had the dysfunction. I was the one who was controlling or irritable, like I just I took on and he was just so healthy because he was so great and had all of these great relationships. But you did think he was

a great husband in the beginning. I did. And then the parts that weren't I think I just attributed to youth and thought, oh, he'll grow up. We're getting married young, like you do, and then you're gonna grow up together. And my parents got married when they were like twenty and so, yeah, you grow up together. So I think I thought, like the things that weren't okay, I was like, well, that that makes sense, Like he's a twenty one year old now I'm like a boy, Like I have a

seventeen year old son, Like, oh my gosh. So I think that those things I just thought that he would grow out of them, like even some of the narcissistic stuff, Like he's a twenty one year old guy, he'll learn how to adult, will grow out of these things together. But I think back to when we were first married, and we were married on this small, little Christian college campus, and so we were surrounded by community and very involved in each other's lives, like we weren't separate, Like it

just felt so good and so right. And he was a great dad at the beginning as far as being really involved with the baby and very hand on and really great with kids, and yeah, like it just all and everybody thought like we were great in this perfect little family, and yeah we were adorable. You just said something so interesting. He said he was only twenty one,

and the behavior he was engaging and was useful. And I have to say, you're absolutely right if you were sitting here across from me and said, I have a twenty one year old son, and my twenty year old son's behavior is blah blah blah, entitled slovenly impulsive, the whole list. You know what I'd be telling you. I'd be saying, personality needs a minute to develop, emerging adulthood frontal lobe blah blah blah. And I'd say, call me when he's twenty five. So why would we hold you

to a different standard because you're his wife? Does that make sense? So I that one is so striking to me because it's young to get married. So it wasn't young in the world you were in right to get married. She was actually really normative in a Bible college, is what you're saying. So I think that we want to be so careful because it's so easy to just sort of cross arms and say, oh, couldn't just charming and charismatic. You shouldn't have had a second day, says no one ever,

And then you're writing his behavior off to youth. Any parent would be doing that. I actually think there was a certain wisdom to your young self to be able to say, well, he's young. You're right, twenty one is adolescence. We may not think of it in society, but as far as your brain is concerned, you're still an adolescent,

especially a boy, especially a man. And so I think to me is that your story is fascinating in that way because like all red flags and all this other stuff, and you're even saying here, you became young parents, and early on he was an attentive father. So whatever red flags they were, we're getting eclipsed by all of the other stuff that was good. And then this huge looming voice of the church, which is telling you you're in something great. Yeah. In fact, my kids now they're like,

why did you marry him? Like he was like, it wasn't like this, like you you look back, but it wasn't. It was it was young love. But there was I think something in my gut that was noticing things that were off or that weren't right. But I think that I thought, what I want to say is like that I could fix it, like I know that you can't

fix another person. But I haven't mentioned that there was a sex addiction that was there as well, and so you know pastor that looks at porn, and but I think even that it was like, well, like that's a normal guy thing, so that that happens. And so I think even that it was like, I'm willing to walk with you through that. But there were all of these things that I saw. I saw things that weren't okay. But I wanted the relationship so bad I was willing

to overlook it. I wanted the love. I wanted what he was telling me that we could have and what could be, And so we crafted this really beautiful vision together, and I think I was willing to go through whatever I needed to grow through to grow into making that happen. That right there, though, that's the statement I wanted this

relationship so bad, and the wanting it so bad. If there was ever a sort of a moment in any kind of toxic relationship, it's that right, because that automatically almost becomes a curtain that gets drawn over your eyes so you can't see the red flags are like glasses that just turn the red flags into not red flags kind of thing. But you just don't you want it, and you're young, and everyone's telling you it's great. That's a lot to push against. But you just dropped a

bit of a bomb into the conversation. You talk about sex addiction. Okay, So I'm having a lot of thoughts as I hear you say that. Number one is I can't imagine that sex addiction was ever going to be viewed in any kind of benevolent lens by a church, like a pastor watching porn. That doesn't seem like a good brand. Uh No. However, this triangle of the church, the church was very forgiving to him, and when something

would come up or he would get caught. There was one significant time in college and the leadership forgave him very quickly, and I think it was, oh, you made a mistake and this is a struggle. You need to get help. And he was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And so we even broke up for a time because I was like, this isn't okay, And we ended up getting back together. In the context of ministry because he was just very sorry, and he said the right things that he needed to say, and he would say he

wasn't even being honest about the extent of it. So there was no way that I could have known how deep that went for him until much later when more stuff continued to happen. But like, yes, that's not okay, and the church loves a recovery story and the recovery stories are beautiful. So then what happened was we became this like how we're going to be the recovery story,

and we became the recovery couple. And that was another place for I think him to get more in our statistics supply really because that the affirmation then came, look at how well he's recovering. And I was the wife who stood by her man and who forgave, and we were leading a recovery ministry at a church, and so

it moved. So we actually took this exedition where that could have potentially cost him his job or been bad, we reframed it and repositioned it to now we're going to use our story in order to be able to help other couples in recovery. We will be right back with this conversation. Whose idea was it to sort of shift the narrative over to where the recovery couple, probably both of ours together. I think he got involved in recovery.

And because he's so charismatic, anytime he steps into some somewhere, people are going to move him forward into leadership. Whether or not he demonstrates the ability to be able to carry the weight of that, he just would get put into those positions. And so as he then stepped into that again, I'm a good wife, so I'm going to come alongside. And yeah, so I began to support him, and um, I was going through my own stuff, and so it's like, well, I can enter into recovery too,

so I can talk about my family of origin. And at that time also I was having repeat in miscarriages and we never found out why. And I there's a piece of me that will always wonder if my body just knew from fear not to procreate with this human anymore, because yeah, they never found out why. But so I I entered it like my own recovery. And I think that the other piece of recovery is all about owning your side of the street. And so when you think about the family system. Then I needed to work my

twelve steps. I needed to work my stuff. I needed to own my character defects. I needed to own my codependency. I needed to own my part that I was playing into the system, my need to control my addiction. Addiction is all about shame that I needed to own. How maybe I was shaming him, and so I think the recovery, like me working my stuff became like what I could focus on because that's what I could control, I think in order to alleviate my fear. And then he was

supposed to be working his stuff too. How did the church find out? Because I understand that you found out that he was watching something. Okay, you lived in the same home as him, that was not that's not remarkable. How did the church find out that he was engaging in chronic habitual pornography? Use we were in a master's program with the church, and so when he confessed that to me, I think, for me, oh, it is not appropriate for you to be doing this and be in

this program. And I value the character of the church like I didn't. I wasn't going to be like a co conspirator in the hypocrisy. I think I grew up around and seeing a lot of hypocrisy, and so I think that there was like, we're not going to do this. We're going to be honest. We are going to be honest about what is going on. And and so that brought to the leaders of the program, and so I think for him it's like either he's this like failure of the program or we turned this ship around to

become the recovery people. How did he respawn when you said to him, you need to come clean if we're going to be in this master's program that is still affiliated with pastoral study and all of that, How did you bring him around? Because I'm just wondering, dude, that not bring up a lot of shame for him that you're basically saying this you're doing a bad thing and it's a bad thing that you need to own up to. Or we are then, like you said, you're being a

co conspirator. So how did he respond to that? He was okay with it, because I think that was the first time that he didn't get caught. It was a like a confession on his part to me, And so I think he I know, as I as I think about I think that there was something in him that either didn't want that wanted to be well, wanted to recover, and so I think that was like, this is how

I'm going to get help. So I do you think that there was a piece of that, But I thinks as soon as he found out that was going to get him attention to because then everybody surrounded him as the addict. So that's when that started it too. So I think it was a way of getting more now looking back, more narcissistic supply. So he got a ton of compassion, he got a ton of support. The church really rallied around him, the group really rallied around him.

And now that I see the pattern throughout, nobody really surrounded me. I don't know if it come across as very strong and capable, and so I think, like she has it. Look at how strong she is, like a still continued leading in my way and supporting him. But

I think it all became him. So it really worked for him actually to confess, because he got attention, he got support from men who then wanted to mentor him, and yeah, it really worked actually, But what's interesting to me is that's a real lack of empathy and compassion because for you, you've experienced a betrayal in your relationship. You're a new mom, you're young, and so it was all about him and his struggle. But nobody was saying,

are you okay? Because this is a big revelation to unearthed about someone, And in a way that you're saying that, is it conceivable that I might have had these repeated miscarriages because of this? You're under tremendous stress. I mean, there was a real there was a real split in your life. You wanted your marriage to work. You you believed in it, you felt spiritually committed to it, and you were with somebody who had betrayed your trust, and you didn't know if you could trust him, and you

didn't even feel like you knew who he was. When we have to live in those inconsistent ways, it's incredibly stressful. And so now he actually steps into it, he owns it. He may, like you said, he may not have had a choice. I mean, listen, I'm going to sound really cynical when I say this, but I wonder all this

entire community of men who embraced him. I don't know what the hell they were doing at home, but how much his public shame became a place for them almost to adhere to a place to almost manage their own shame. It becomes this really sort of strange coalesced shame system, if you will, that he is now getting validation, which I think it's a whole projection thing too, that there they have their own shameful stuff, so he and he

gets to be the repository of it. But even though if it was that he was still getting validation, he was getting attention. He had a ton of attention. I didn't feel like I could be angry. I didn't feel like I could be like in that betrayal, like any type of boundaries, I feel like I would have said like they were mean, and so I didn't feel like I could even have my own emotional experience because that

would have been very like disrespectful. As I'm supposed to respect my husband, I'm supposed to honor my husband, so too to be angry and bitter and resentful, because it's like, I'm not going to be that, and so it was I'm going to embrace the forgiving and coming alongside of him and supporting him in recovery. So I think like, yeah, I don't even remember really even getting angry. It was like thinking to triage mode of like how do we save how do I save my marriage? How do I

save the image? So you're basically being told not just by your I guess maybe your husband, but the entire system around you you're not allowed to have your own emotions, which is the ultimate gaslight. I mean, you were collectively gaslighted by a system that said you had no right to your feelings. You will feel the way we think you should feel, and the only way to keep your life going was to kind of buy into what they're

telling you you could feel, which didn't include anger. The woman scorned is one of the most dangerous sorts of tropes that is out there, because what it does is it's a way to literally say to half the population, you don't get to be angry, you don't get to feel betrayed when you've been betrayed. And so by paying tee it as a woman scorn and saying that a woman scorned is such an unattractive trope. It's a way

of effectively shutting down half the population. Honestly, I think an angry woman is an incredibly attractive state to be in because when a person says I'm angry, I'm having a feeling, it's an ownership of emotion, it's an ownership of an experience. So, hey, are you women scorned out there, unite because there's an army for you as a woman scorned in the past. Myself, I really felt I agree with that. You really do feel as though if you show that somehow you've violated some sort of social code.

And so I think that's a really important piece that folks understand that was gaslighting. You weren't allowed to have reality, you weren't allowed to have a real emotional experience, no, which I think then kept me in it and kept me blind to a lot of things leading into the addiction while we were in recovery, using using recovery as like a shield in order to act out more and for that acting out to get more and more significant.

So in two thousand fifteen is when I found out that he had been for like three years acting out with people while we were leading the recovery ministry. So I had no idea, and I think that is when that was the like the breaking point for me, Like as far as like I broke, like I don't know if I like broke to make a powerful decision that came later, But as far as really I think, oh, like, this is really significant and I don't know what is going on. I don't know what is true what is

not true. The cognitive dissonance was incredibly significant at that point, and that even then I held back the anger. So like, the sad was okay, but the anger I still felt. So I felt wrong about being angry. I felt guilty about actually acknowledging that this wasn't okay. So the trauma was fine, I think for me, like losing my mind a little bit was okay. The fear was fine, the sad was fine, But the anger I did I needed to hold it to the side again because it became

about him and his recovery in saving our marriage. Where do you think you got that message that anger was bad? Do you think that was only something that evolved over the course of this difficult marriage or was it something you were raised with? Oh, definitely something that I was raised with. It was okay for my mom to be angry, but it was not okay for me to be angry.

I think that my mom probably has some narcissistic tendencies, and so her emotions from the house, and so I wasn't allowed to feel definitely couldn't be mad at her. So and I remember, like one of the things that I would say all the time growing up is give other people the benefit of the doubt. Okay, so I have said this. I said it on red table. I said benefit of the doubt of the foremost dangerous words in the English language, because what happens is the empathic

individuals always offering up the benefit of the doubt. That allows the people who are causing all kinds of havoc to keep getting that benefit. And we are encouraged to give people the benefit of the doubt by existing institutions and structures, most famously things like the church. Right give them the benefit of the doubt, give them the benefit of the doubt, the challenges. No one was giving you the benefit of the doubt because you weren't allowed to

be angry. My job is to forgive, and I think even with my husband, forgiveness played in so huge to that, like part of the being the supportive wife was it was my job, my job to forgive and to accept. And I remember the Valentine's Day that we were engaged. I had stayed up that whole night and then made this chain of really nice like things, like every there was a piece of paper, and there was a nice

thing on every piece of paper. And I made this huge long chain from Valentine's Day up until our wedding day, so there was a thing for every day and I had stayed up all night making it. And he did nothing for me for Valentine's Day. We were engaged, and

he didn't do anything for me for Valentine's Day. And I remember even in that it was like okay, like I've given him night chain, like the chain was like so proud of it, and then he just like thanks and like received it and there was nothing, and I remember lame. I was like I'm sad, Like I'm gonna let myself be sad. I'm gonna let myself be sad. And so then he came over. I was like, you didn't do anything, Like it's Valentine's Day and we're engaged and you did nothing, and it like it was like

almost like he didn't even realize. That was like a sing. And then I was like I'm sorry, and then it was like are you going to do anything to make it right, and it was that we had a very explicit conversation around I just needed to forgive, like that there wasn't anything that he needed to do to make it right, because in this lesson here I needed to learn to forgive. In order for us to have a

successful marriage, I needed to forgive him. And so I remember even thinking, this is me being noball, this is me being strong, this is me having character to forgive and to move forward. And so like there there still wasn't. We had issues throughout val about Valentine's date. Throughout our marriage. It was like a story that that we would tell. But and even then in our recovery journey was a story we would tell. I would tell it about look at how good I was forgiving. I was a good

wife man. That old idea of pathologizing every human want and every human emotion you had from the beginning meant that you're almost in a set up here that all relationships were really going to be. Your entire emotional world could not exist like you were sort of how to underneath them, and you served your function was to be there as your mother expected you to be. Your function was to be there as your husband expected you to be. You jumped from that role to the next one, and

you simply had to forgive. In a way, I think any narcissistic relationship is a process of what I'd call forgiveness grooming. They test the waters, they say if they can play this game of forgiveness with you, and once they recognize forgiveness is on the table, they're off to the races and they're fully emboldened. So that's why I call it grooming, because it's a process. I'm gonna do some small things and for him that Valentine's Day that

you still remember, I mean, VALENTI all validate. All roads of validation are one way streets and the narcissistic world, and they all lead to them, right, there's nothing going back out. But some of those early things were early forgiveness tests. And so when they forgiveness groom and they're like, okay, I've got it. And I always say this, that forgiveness is really giving the narcissist person. They view it as permission.

They don't view it as a divine gift. Because I really do think when forgiveness is given in its purest way and accepted in its purest ways, Wow, this person not only as empathy, but they have now given me an opportunity to be better, and that if you're on the receiving end of forgiveness, you do better at a minimum, you never commit the original transaggression again, or if you or you're very quick to say, I mean, I'm talking about big ticket stuff. I'm not keep talking about keeping

the toilet seat up stuff. I'm talking about big stuff that you commit yourself. And to say somebody granted me this divine gift of forgiveness, No, no, no. For the narcissistic person, they're like, yo, they forgave me. I'm off to the races. I can do anything I want in this relationship. And then I'm going to weaponize the forgiveness. And not only did do we see even narcissistic people who are not in religious systems, not in churches and

whatnot weaponized forgiveness. If you then have the emboldening hordes of validators behind him, which he did literally like an entire almost confuse them as flying monkeys of a sort, but saying you're entitled to this forgiveness just because then he really did think he could do anything he wanted. So if we took a year off for significant recovery, and we engaged and all that I was like, I'm gonna do whatever like I need to do to do

the right thing by this marriage and and forgive. But along in that, in that granting the forgiveness, I think it actually empowered me in a way. I began to feel like stronger in myself and take ownership I think of some of my life and not self betray anymore. And so then the stronger the stronger that I became, and then not giving up on myself. Then that's I think when our relationships opped being able to work right.

So I did start doing the work on myself. I think that was a catalyst too, Oh I need to do some work here, So even all of the wives of sex addicts material it was it's like coming into your own and my own twelve step stuff. And really did begin to do my own recovery, and I started building a career and empowering myself. And I think that's been when it didn't I became very frustrated in the relationship because I wasn't self betraying and I wasn't going

to give up on myself. And so then we started having a lot of conflict and misalignment. And I think because I had forgiven so much, he received that as permission, and so he was continuing to act out as long as I think he could keep it secret from me. But I look back on that is when I started to really begin to empower myself and take ownership and

not self betraying anymore. I love that because when you started engaging in a path of self recovery, of of focusing on yourself, because the entire sort of recovery power couple trope was all focused on him and his recovery. But you stepped up, and we're reading these materials and going through these programs and say this applies to me too.

I mean, if we want to view it to an addiction model, I we could stretch it a little and say there was an addiction to being a part of something like this, to being part of this, to being part of this marriage that was being valued, and as as being these people who are sort of these models in the recovery community. But you became individuated, as you completely became more and more aligned with yourself. That's the moment at which the narcissistic relationship no longer works. It's over.

Then it is absolutely over. And it can escalate. It can get angry, you can get dangerous. Sometimes they can even get violent, and people can get ostracized and everyone will say you're no good. You were in a church community. I'm sure they didn't view this very well and you so everyone's going to put you out. But that's the path forward to healing. You just didn't know that, because it doesn't seem like you were using the framework of narcissism at that point. There's two things I want to

get to. One thing you said really struck me with that again, as part of the work of recovery, I'm very aware that it's this idea of taking ownership of your quote unquote character defects? Right, did he publicly? He would say all the right things. So, yes, like he did. My oldest son was looking at pictures like he's such a shape shifter, like he just could shape shift to wherever, and so he could learn the language of recovery and learn what he needed to confess and what the character

defects were. And so did he did he acknowledge them? Did he do any work to change them? No, he would acknowledge it, but not necessarily do anything about it. Someone once said to me, insight is the booby prize if it's not. If it's not with action, right, if somebody says, here's all my insights, I'm like, okay, so then change the behavior. Without the behavior change, it's worth nothing. I can say this as a therapist. My client could sit there and go on and on and on. I

get it. I get it, I get it. But if they come back the next week and said, well I did all the same things I did, then I said, then what is that? So in a way, what he was doing was performative recovery. So it was, you know, I'm putting on the show that people want to hear and following the program as it were, and all of that as twelve step would have you do. But he

was continuing to engage in the behavior. And your son's observation such an interesting one to just even as a teaching point, in the sense that he said his father is a shape shifter. Right. Narcissistic people are very shape shifty. All toxic people are shape shifting because they want one thing and one thing only, which is validation. So they're

going to be whatever they need to be. They're going to mirror whatever they need to mirror in a given sort of an environment so that they can get that validation. It's of a process of emulation. They become what they need to become. They say what they need to say, so everything they say is superficial. It's a sort of

a superficial preaching of scripture. They will say what they need to say to get the parishioners really worked out, but they actually don't necessarily live in accordance with that, and that in the recovery space he was beginning to learn if you say X, Y, and z in this space.

And it's sad because I would imagine many of the other people he was speaking to may have been genuinely committed to recovery and they were falling for this huckster, basically sort of a recovery huckster who was up there and preaching really the non truth, which ultimately, if they find out the other people who are in recovery, that's a betrayal to them as well. It speaks to how little empathy he had. I mean, I ask, were you seeing sort of pastoral or Christian therapists, the therapist that

we were seeing our couples therapy. She was a part of a church, and so I think that's when I really began to realize this idolization almost of family and marriage. And so even like the talk around you know, your marriage comes first before your kids, like you need to have a solid marriage so the kids feel safe and secure in in the marriage the unity of that, and I think in a healthy situation, that's important to cultivate

that relationship in the context of family. Um. But there was like this idolization almost to where then there would be a toleration of things that was really that were

really toxic. And I think even in that and seeing his patterns and how he was showing up and then how he was showing up with the kids, the older that they got and the more that they were experiencing him and maybe not feeling so safe and seeing the hypocrisy and seeing the lying and the distant like in there they I raised them to be very empowered and to speak their mind, and so they created a lot of conflict between him and his kids, and so there was this so I was like, Okay, this isn't going

to change. This is how it's going to be. If I take marriage off of the idolizing it and really look at is this healthy for me? No? Is this going to be healthy for my kids? No? And at this point now we're just continuing the generational cycles. Like I was like, oh, this is how this keeps going. And I've been in enough twelve step rooms to see

and hear people talk about their kids. It's like, no, Like this isn't going to be That's not going to be my story, and so I need to do something different, which I look back now and just how courageous that was to step away from people who I value, like I respected so much, and to have the courage to say, no, this actually doesn't work for me, and we're going to

we're going to end this. It's incredibly courageous because to step away from the sort of toxic, confusing, gas slided, manipulative mess of a narcissistic relationship is difficult on any day, But when you have an entire organization enabling and emboldening this person, you know that you're going to have to face down their disapproval. Since you were a child, ministry

was important to you. This was core to who you were philosophically and spiritually, This wasn't just about breaking up a marriage in a strange way, it was breaking up with your conception of God. That's really big and so to do that, you actually did something that I hope for all survivors. You found a true north, and your true north were your children. You said, I am not repeating these intergenerational cycles. And it takes that because you you saw how much easier it would have been to

keep it the way it was. You broke out of that path because there was something bigger than you, and for once in your family system, instead of making it about these ephemeral ideas of marriage and faith and family, you made it about your living, breathing children. That's how people break the cycles of narcissistic relationships. Our session will continue after this break. So you make the decision you're going to do. I mean again, I can't say enough

how courageous it was you decided to leave. What did that look like? We were on a vacation, just the two of us, and I found out that he was still continuing to look at pornography after everything that we had been through, and not just that, but he was continuing to lie about it. And so I think for me at that point, it wasn't necessarily about the sex addiction.

It was the lying. It was that he could look me in the eye and tell me an untruth and I don't know how to continue a relationship with that when you can't trust the person who you are partnering with for life to to be honest. It was very significant to me and I asked him to leave. I think another piece was that I began talking to people

who were completely removed from our situation. So I got some really wise counsel and they connected me with some people who lead a marriage ministry at a very large church and another part of the country, and so I had a lot of respect for their experience and they were like, you need like, no, this is not okay. You need to empower yourself and ask him to leave.

And we separated bank accounts and they really encouraged me to, I think, make things difficult for him so that he could make the choice like he would need to choose. And during that time of separation, he continued to violate boundaries. He continued to not tell the truth, he didn't show up for the kids, he continued to make it about him, so he would go on these men's retreats he would

go on because he needed to be around. Why is people and good people bring into him while I'm like left alone working a full time job and with a ten and thirteen year old basically raising them at that point, all on my own. And it was like, Oh, he doesn't really want it. He doesn't he's not willing to do the work. I know what the work looks like, and so it just became clear, this is what I need to do, and I asked for a divorce and that it was like, do you think that this is

what God wants? You told me, you vowed that you would never divorce me. You're going back on your commitments, like I am. And so I was like, yes, that is what I'm doing. And it was like, the kids are always going to know that you were the one who decided this. I'm like, I'm actually cool with that. So he turned it back on me, and I think I had done so much work and I was, I think,

expecting those arguments, and so it was all right. And then even in the whole divorce process, it's very different, I think from a normal narcissist because he didn't fight me on anything. He didn't want custody. He didn't even fight me on stuff, like he left, but he like like left in such a way where I was the one who was making all the decisions. So I was the one who was deciding that this is what was happening,

and this is what this was ending. And he began very quickly after we were married, which the boys after. I mean we were married for over seventeen years, and so I think that that was very hard for my kids, and he didn't understand that they were still working their process like he just there was no empathy towards them. So I think, like how he had been treating me for years, then it began treating the children that way,

and that became not okay. And so I think they had grown up seeing how like me repeatedly go back and go back and go back and go back, and they want something different for themselves too, So then they made the choice that they didn't want to see him anymore.

He continued to make choices. I asked for full custody, and he fought it a little bit because I think therapists were like, you don't want you don't want to give her full custody, Like, don't do that, but I knew he wanted his freedom, and so it's like, you can. You can have your freedom, you can do what you want, you can marry whoever you want, move wherever you want, and I actually want to raise kids. So and he willingly just signed the papers, so I have a percent

legal in physical custody. That yeah, so he just gave it all up again. You did something that I think is really interesting. It's something for everyone to pay attention to. He hit you with all these shaming, manipulative pieces. You did something interesting. You were steadfast. You're like, yep, I'm breaking my vows. Okay, I guess God's gonna be mad. Like you were just like, okay, you didn't let yourself

get gaslighted at that moment. I am convinced that when you did that, he was done because there was no path inward, that none of the portals of manipulation were open anymore, and you were no longer an interesting source of validation and narcissistic supply. Your supply became uninteresting at that point. So, as you said, then he and he couldn't do it to the kids either, So none of you are supply. He started dating right away because he

was going to get more supply. And when we look at the sex addiction model, one of the things we do see is that there's an impairment in intimacy. When we see this in narcissism too, there's no capacity for mutual, reciprocal loving relationships that are sustained and have depth. They

do not have interest. For a narcissistic person, a relationship is just a source of validation and admiration, and so moving on to a new one is actually quite easy for them because it never went deep in the first place. So how do you fit spirituality and church into your life? Now? Yeah, it's been a little complicated, And I think it's I'm

allowing myself the journey. And so I think that there is a reconnecting to God in my higher power from an individual right, so as a very personal place, like what does he have to say about me and to me and his love for me for me, not focusing on love for the addict and right, and like how I need to forgive, but like for me? And I think, yeah, what does he want for me? And to be free from toxic relationships and free from abuse? And I'm still

figuring out stuff with the church. I love. I love the church, I love community, and I love hope, and I do love forgiveness and grace. So still on a journey I think figuring that out. I think that all healthy relationships are about mutual recognition, and any relationship with any human being, or honestly, any relationship with God has to be one of mutual recognition, and that it can be tricky that some in many cases, people can turn

God into an enabler. But I do think that if you can hold space and say I will only be in relationships character rise by mutual recognition, then people can craft that kind of relationship with a higher power, with whatever sort of spiritual north star they're navigating by. And I think that's a huge part of healing from narcissistic abuse.

And you speak about redemption, you know, and I think that for me that this the redemption story and narcissistic abuse and or the mistake people have been making for the longest time is on the redemption of the narcissist. Frankly, I have little interest in the redemption of the narcissist. Too much harm has been done. I believe wholeheartedly though, in the redemption of the survivor, because I think many survivors blame themselves. They blame themselves. How did I not

see this? How did I get stuck for so long? Why did I put up with this? How did I contribute? How is I responsible? Maybe I didn't forgive enough? Redemption then becomes letting go of that. You showed up. You showed up as a good, empathic, forgiving person who wanted to be there for that person, and that the redemption and is then to set yourself free and then to again to stand in your power and to say you can gaslight, manipulate me, fool me, tricked me, and charis

me all you want. I'm out. I'm not doing this anymore. You talked about your son had pointed out, I think dad's a shape shifter. How did your children make sense of their father's behavior, especially since he dropped out of their lives so in the marriage, Because we were so involved in recovery world, you know, they spent hours sitting outside a therapist office. They have spent hours in childcare

recovering meetings. They were usually aware that any time a woman was over at our house with kids that usually her husband had done something that wasn't okay, They were aware of the things, and my son had found his journal that had talked about the massage parlors and things, and so ten years old explaining that to him. So

they were aware. They knew that I lost my main basically in two thousand and fift team, and so they had I think, a front row seat really to seeing recovery and to seeing me forgive and seeing me stay. And then they saw him continue to not show up, and so I think they they made their own decisions. And they talked to my oldest and he said it's the financial piece that spoke out most to him, like that his dad wasn't like a hard worker and like

a provider and that really affected him. And then just not making being a good role model as a man. And so they said, Dad, this is what we need in order to be around you. We need to get therapy, We need for you to go to your twelve step, and we need you to be single, like he just screwed up a marriage. Please get yourself together like they

wanted to do well. And he refused to do those things because the narcissistic supply was coming from other women and her children and things, and that became just very clear. So I think they feel very safe and secure in the home that I can provide, Like they know that he's going to make his choices, and I think they're like, as we're still forming our identity, we don't want to

be around that crazy. We see how you treat people that you say you love, so you go and do that and maybe in the future as adults we can have a very shallow relationship. One time, the oldest we were talking and he was just talking about his own grief with his dad, and he was saying, I feel like I have a phantom leg, like when you lose a leg and you feel like you have a leg because I have a dad, but I don't have a dad. And I was like, yeah, it's kind of like that.

He's like, but I got a really strong other leg, and I was like, yeah, this other legs really tired. His son is a bit of a genius because one thing that a lot of people may not know about phantom limb unless they've had a phantom limb is that the phantom limb hurts, and so people of phantom limb syndrome amputees have pain. So there's no arm and they feel the pain in that space in that leg. So your son saying he had a phantom father, he was

still experiencing the pain of that invalidating father. Her son says something so profound and interesting here, characterizing his relationship with his father to having a phantom leg. Phantom limb syndrome is a very real medical phenomenon which occurs in people who have lost a limb to amputation, and despite the limb no longer being there, the person still feels real pain as though the limb was still there, and

that can be very distressing and uncomfortable. Her son is saying, I still have two parents in the world, but not only does one no longer really exist in my life, Like he says, it's like a phantom leg. I still feel grief. Just like a phantom leg, you still feel the pain even when the limb isn't there, and even a prosthetic isn't a cure. The pain remains. I'd never heard of that kind of characterization before, but it really does capture that complicated and lingering grief that many people,

particularly children who are survivors of narcissistic parents, will often express. Yeah, we're still experiencing the pain. I mean the other thing that he said about the phantom leg and he was like, and he's like, you can get a prosthetic because I've been encouraging them to make relationships with other men. But you to your point, like that pain is still there and you can't see it. And I think that that's

the hard thing of explaining with community. I think people are like, come on, get out there, start dating and you're good now, and like move on. And I appreciate it so much that there's a pain that people can't see and the trauma bonding and the betrayal bonding. It gets real. And I'm still working, I think through a lot of that, and my kids working through their griefs.

So we are like I feel like we're doing our best to create try to create something new, and we are and moving forward, but it's just it's taking us a minute where like that the pain is just still still there. And I love that about the phantom like host still and that's it's it's a big issue and treatment actually an amputees, so in a way we have to it's a retraining, which is what recovery is. And I think that ultimately though by this story, the whole

idea of performative recovery. Recovery is a very real process. I've worked with many people who who have lived with substance use disorders, with other forms of addictive disorders, addictive behavior. When people commit to the process of recovery in a whole way, in an authentic way, in an empathic way, and in that recognition of all of us have human frailty,

I've seen amazing things happen. Narcissism is almost a complete block against recovery because there's no humility, there's only grandi city. It is still about ego, and there's ego. There cannot be recovery in that way. And so I think that that this is you know, to want listeners to know. I very much believe in the process of recovery from addiction. But I gotta tell you, when narcissisms on board, forget about it, it really it muddies the waters in a

way that I have not seen. All I see is just a lifetime history of not only relapse, but also harm to other people who are often viewed as the vessels of blame for that person's incapacity to actually step up and take responsibility. So I can't thank you enough.

Your story is just profound, and your story is also interesting because religious communities, the church in many ways let you down, but then it didn't because in the same breath there were people within the church and areas of the church that told you, get out, save yourself, take care of yourself. You deserve better. It's easy to paint something as big as the church is doing only bad. Parts of the church did bad, but parts of the

church did good. And I think that's important for people in spiritual communities to realize that their faith matters to them as part of their healing, and they just have they may just have to find a different path within it that works for them, and to recognize that there can be bad actors anywhere in this world, even under this sort of mantle of the divine. So thank you for opening up about how varied that process was for you to thank you so much for having me. Here

are some takeaways from my conversation with today's guest. In this story, we learned that when a person is struggling in a toxic relationship, they may feel okay with sadness or fear, but not with anger. In narcissistic relationships, People are often uncomfortable with their own anger, and it is often judged quite harshly, especially if there are other forces like family or systems like churches involved. Anger done right can be a profound motivator and can take us out

of a passive role into a more active one. If you are in a toxic relationship, let that anger fuel you to make decisions that protect you instead of always protecting the narcissistic person. In our next takeaway, remember to be very wary when you view yourself as a branded couple. They went from being the leadership couple to the recovery couple, and we have heard of people calling themselves the power couple. Right.

This stance often works for the validation seeker and means that the individuals in the relationship get lost, so then people often find themselves fighting for the brand of the relationship rather than clearly seeing the red flags that are popping up everywhere. In this next takeaway, let's remember that forgiveness is the paradox of the narcissistic relationship and unfortunately

is what propels the narcissistic relationship forward. It harms you, helps them, and is encouraged by the world at large. The toxic folks keep doing manipulative and entitled things that the other person feels they don't have a right to their feelings and that they are being a bad person for not forgiving. So you forgive, and the patterns perpetuate. The more you forgive, the more toxic narcissistic relationship gets.

This story teaches us that when that day comes, for whatever reason, it comes, when you start doing your own work on yourself, start finding yourself as an individual with needs and feelings, separate from the relationship, and start silencing the voices of the enablers, that's the day the relationship will start to unravel. The rules of engagement in a narcissistic relationship are that all validation is for them. They are entitled to do and say what they want. Your

personhood doesn't matter, and how dare you think otherwise? When those rules start getting violated, they will fight you, manipulate you, look for new supply, or just leave. Narcissistic people are very prone to something we can call performative recovery, recovery from addictive or other unhealthy behavior just to get validation.

It may look like recovery to the world, who is cheering the person on, but it's pseudo recovery, and the person may still not only be continuing to engage in the addictive or problematic behavior, but also continue you to do harm to those closest to them, all the while

being cheered on from the recovery brigade. If you are continuing to be harmed by your relationship, even if they suggest you have to stay in the name of their recovery, their recovery is their responsibility and it's an inside job, not just to get validation from the world. Hey. Everyone, so I've been welcoming hearing your emails and I have one that somebody sent in, So let me let me read this one to you. This person asks, Hi, I'm growing up with a narcissistic mother to say the least,

and being abused. I'd love to explore those family dynamics, especially that of the truth teller or the knower, and the impacts that has on a daughter. So, first of all, thanks everyone for listening, and thank you for sending in

your questions. This is such an important question. It's so funny because everyone says, oh, aren't all narcissists men, Well, obviously not, because a lot of folks of narciss system mothers, and it's one of the most difficult relationships a person can have, And frankly, I think it's really profound for a daughter, because we grow up with this idea that a mother is supposed to have our back like nobody else's supposed to be unconditional of care giving, that person

who is all about us and just wants best for us. So when a person starts to recognize that their mother actually isn't at all that and only will notice you when you're sort of in service to them, that's a really heartbreaking moment. And the person writing this email self identifies is what we call a truth teller. The truth tellers the child in the narcissistic system who kind of

gets it, like even from a pretty young age. They may not know the word narcissist, but there's something with the look in their eyes that they give their parents or parents or family system that in a way, the narcissistic person almost feels unmasked. And as a result, there's a real likely that that truth telling child can also often become a scapegoat to child within that family. So in terms of the impact, certainly in childhood, the impacts

can be really quite harrowing. The child often self blaming for what's happening, often almost doubting even though their insights are on point. They start to almost get uh indoctrinated into doubting themselves and also having a lot of fear because they get it. They note that they'll often bear the brunt of the punishment or the rejection or the negation.

And kids coming out of these environments, including truthtelling, kids often feel like they're not enough, and that kind of thinking and that sort of identity can definitely trail a person into adulthood. So it undercuts your sense of self, It undercuts your self evaluation, it undercuts what you think you can be in the world as you go into adulthood.

You can easily see how having had a an invalidating, emotionally abusive, rejecting, and critical mother can set you up for entering this cycle again and again of entering into relationships where sort of rejection and invalidation is almost normalized.

Narcissistic parents, especially mothers, can be quite tricky because there can be some really great days or moments and you almost hoard them like little trinkets you put in a box, like you want, you want to collect as many as you can, because when that happens, you're like, yeah, I'm in a normal family, and then before long it's going

to happen that something very invalidated will happen. So you're constantly caught in that back and forth, and there's a risk of recreating those cycles and adult relationships by choosing people who behave in the same way. But there's a bit of bright sort of a bit of good news in this person's question because I identified as a truth teller. Being the truth teller in a narcissistic system is a really interesting role because I think ultimately it's a protective role.

It's sort of a superpower you're born with. You're able to call BS or at least CBS when it's happening in front of you from a very early age. If you could hold on to that superpower, that detection, that ability to see toxic behavior when it's in front of you, and carry that into adulthood and not fall back into the patterns of self doubt, you really have a powerful superpower. In this day and age when more and more of

us are encountering more and more toxic people. The real trick is to take back your sovereignty, to become someone separate from your mother, To recognize, above all else, you were not responsible for your mother's behavior, To be able to detach that and recognize your mother's issues were hers. You are enough, and her treatment of you is not a reflection of you. It's a reflection of how she

perceived and continues likely to perceive the world. And I know this topic of narcissistic mothers is compelling for so many of you, So you're really going to be looking forward to the episode we have coming up where we're going to have someone go into pretty brutal detail, how about what their relationship was like with a narcissistic mother and how that shaped her trajectory and her career going forward. A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith,

Valon Jethrow, Ellen Rakaton, and Dr rominey Der Vassila. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Maria Della Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donaghy and Calvin Bailiff.