NXIVM Whistleblower w/ Sarah Edmondson Part 1

The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I Heart Media, or their employees. But I had this group of women and I was like, this is the thing that we need. I haven't been able to help any of us, are limiting beliefs in our stumbling blocks. I felt very good about bringing what I learned to them.

And when I went to next M, I didn't know about the financial all opportunity that was an offer to me was this for my personal growth? And then once I took it's like, oh, you can take it, and you can bring two people and get your money back.

And if you're bring six people, you can can earn a commission and that's how you can pay for your next courses and it kind of built from there, and then it was like, Wow, I can make more money than I ever did in acting, and I can change the world, and why wouldn't I get paid for helping people grow? Every cult is a narcissistic relationship. Let's just start there. Earlier this season, we talked with Mark Vicente about his experience and Nexium, a self improvement program that

ended up being something far more sinister and harmful. Nexium, like many cult like organizations, are often comprised of well intentioned people who were drawn to the teachings of the organization and who genuinely believed that they were making the world a better place and experiencing meaningful change within themselves. In the next two episodes, we are going to hear from Sarah Edmondson, who played a central role in the documentary The Vow as a whistleblower who facilitated the dismantling

of Nexium. Sarah was branded as part of Doss, as in Sarah's skin was burned with a brand. Doss was a sub organization within Nexium, and in the years that would follow, teachings that she believed in, friendship, she trusted, and her life's work for over twelve years was dismantled, as well as having to live with a traumatic impact of being a part of such an abusive organization. It

was gaslighting at the highest degree. Sarah also wrote a memoir about her experience entitled Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped Nexium The Cult That Bound My Life, and she and her husband Nippy also co host their hit podcast A Little Bit Culty. In this episode, we are going to hear the experience of Nexium from the perspective of a woman who was in it and understand how insidious and gradual the process of indoctrination can be, whether you were in a cult or in any kind

of toxic relationship. Sarah, it's so wonderful to see you and have you sitting right here. I've been on A Little Bit Culty, which was one of my very most favorite podcasts who have ever ever been on. I love talking with you and Nippy and it was both fun but also we were able to take it seriously. So your your podcast is amazing. Your book that's called Scarred, The True Story of How I Escaped Nexium The Cult

That Bound My Life. It's not the usual memoir I think for us, we've all heard the story of Nexium. We've heard it through the vow, we've heard it through news reports. And I think I even approach your book thinking I'm going to read this again, and then I read it and it was absolutely extraordinary to me to read your experience as a woman within a system like this and so and we'll be revisiting parts of that. But everyone needs to read this book if they have

any interesting coercive control, gas lighting, exploitation. Even if you've never been near a cult interested in a cult. What happened to all of you is something that happens in any toxic system. It just happened to be organized in that structure. So I can't tell you how happy I am to have you here. Thank you, Thank you so much for having me where I want to start with, and almost start with what one of the critiques from the world is and what you beautifully sort of lay

out in the book. So many people looked at the story of Nexium and said, what were these people thinking? What were they doing? Why were they spending all this money on this um? Some people say, why didn't they just get therapy? I mean, there were so many critiques leveled, and when I read your book, I finally got it.

If you could break down for us this journey into a system, because obviously you didn't sign up saying, oh, exploitative organization, sign me up right right, But you're in of shells on my body super you know, confuse me and gaslight me and manipulate me and destroy my friend's lives. That's what That's not what you wanted. Something drew you into this and hooked you into this, And I would argue there was a healthy and an unhealthy part of that.

Can we start with the healthy part of what drew you into Nexium and what that part of your journey

was like? Absolutely? So the healthy part, I think comes from my core values and a lot of that came from my parents and how I was raised in terms of wanting to leave the world a better place, and you know, values around leadership and social change and justice and those kinds of things and being part of a community and meaning and purpose and those things that drove me originally to become an actor, which was sort of falling flat in my mid twenties as as a meaningful career.

So that was one thing that was going on my boyfriend at the time. Now, keep in mind, is a two thousand five, so this is not now the golden age of cult awareness. This is a different era. It's a lot of personal development. My parents were also in the mental health field. My dad's a school counselor of my mom's a therapist. I've always been a seeker. I've

always been interested in workshops and bettering myself. And I was doing the artist way at the time, and and trying to be more creative and have the life that I wanted. All those things, and I my boyfriend and I met Mark Vicente, who I know, you know what. I met him at a film festival and I had seen What the bleep Do We Know? And I felt really moved by that film. I felt like this was

I wanted to make media that shifted consciousness. And so when I when I had the opportunity to meet him at this film festival, that was one of the things that drew me in is this idea of being connected

with other spiritual people and doing something more meaningful. Ultimately, what it was, I think the healthy part was being a part of something bigger than myself, being a part of this community of like minded humanitarians, which is hard for me not to roll my eyes, knowing what I know now, but putting myself back there, it's very idealistic and I and I wanted to be aligned with somebody like Mark. He was he was he was doing what I wanted to do and invited me into the this

concept of this of this community, which sounded great. The unhealthy part, If you mind me jumping to that, go ahead. I think when I look, I've had to do a lot of self reflection and I look back at my life. I've always struggled to fit in. I was nerdy in high school. I was never a popular kid. And like the community is the positive way of saying it, but like the night, a side is that like I wanted

belonging and wanted to feel also special. I think one of the things that really hooked me was the once I Once I did my first five day was this idea of the stripe path and the martial arts system of growth, which in the in the nature of acting, where like you know, you can do all the things and not get the part. Here's what was laid out to me and promised to be a measurable system of growth where you could do X y Z. You get

your ex stripe, you get your next promotion. And it happened that way for a while, and I really it did good things for my saying quotes because this is a next um term. It helped me with my self esteem. I know that's a word in English, but but it's also like a big part of the foundational concepts. We're trying to raise your self esteem and feel good about yourself, not separate from whether or not you had the acting job or not, like an internal sense of self esteem,

not esteem. And that was a good part of it, but the bad part of it it was it tapped into my my motivation to get to the next level and like somehow that I would be better if I got to the next thing, which was it just doesn't and it's never ending, you know that. Of course, Yeah, you can't graduate from these programs, which is you know, obviously a huge red flag that I know now you know one thing again, and having had the privilege of reading the book was, for lack of a better term,

there was an almost obsessive zeal you were working. It felt like around the clock. Yes, it wasn't just like originally you went to their program. You know that market introduced to you. You went to it, you found it really beneficial because there was something interesting for you. You're doing it and other areas of your life we're starting to improve too. You were making money in a way you hadn't before. You were feeling much, you were feeling very aligned. That's the only way I could I could

put it. And you just worked and worked, and yet at the same time you were working really hard, but it also felt like, you know, you'd work hard just to put it all back in. You'd make all this money just to put it all back into start actually really building out the programs in the Pacific Northwest and in Vancouver where you lived, and so there was this there's almost frenzied, obsessive feel to that was that who you always were. Um, I think it's a tendency that

I think. There were so many naysayers around me saying like what is this? And you were these people. It's similar drive to what caused me to be an actor. It's like I can prove myself, like I can do this. I'm going to prove them wrong. You know, I'm the only I was the only center owner that didn't come from like millions. All the other center owners came from people who had inherited wealth. So I was like, I can do this, and it's almost like an underdog proving

themselves kind of thing. And then I get into a frenzy to do that and work work, work, work work, And that's definitely was a major problem because I was so overworked. I didn't see the red flags Sarah's experience of this obsessive zeal working all the time. While it happened for her in an organizational setting, this is something

that also happens in red flag filled narcissistic relationships. People want to make these relationships keep working, They want to prove themselves, keep the good days going, and there's almost a frenzy. People can have a sort of I am going to make this work, even if I have to put in super human effort. Right, And though the overworking was almost normalized, there's certainly no one around you in

the Nexium organization telling you to engage inself care. If anything that would have been indulgent, right, that would have exactly that would have been indulgent. And it was any time you would do anything, And that was the languaging of Nexium was so interesting. Any time you would do something to individuate right to be to sort of do what was right for you, even if you were still adhering to a lot of what they were teaching you.

Anything that was about Sarah and not Sarah embedded within the organization, that would be shamed using all kinds of technical terminology. Always, and it was very subtle and tacit and gentle. It wasn't overt and angry and punishing. It would be something like, if I was gonna go to let's say she was the best my best friend's wedding.

When I was choosing between going to her wedding and attending an e M tech training that I needed to get to Procter, they would say something like, well, so you're choosing a relationship with someone who doesn't even support your growth over your actual growth. Or when they tried to get me and moved to Albany over and over and over again, I loved my home in Vancouver, and it's at your attachment. Can you see how your attachment to materialism and comfort is stopping you from your your

true growth thro your true potential. Like it would be a very gentle, loving tone not not angry, so I thought I was being supported. I just wanted to make everyone clear on what an e M is. Sarah's using the term e M, which is a nexium term which stands for exploration of meaning moments where a person's motivations were unpacked, and over time it became clear they were

unpacked in a rather shaming, gas lighting way. It's like being in a group where if you did something that the people in charge didn't like, they would subject the

person to this kind of a process. Did it ever start to strike you as these incidents piled up when you were still in sort of the heyday of actually appreciating what was happening in nexium that every one of these suggestions, you're choosing someone who doesn't your growth you are, you know, you don't want to move here and have your true potential, That the outcome of every one of those decisions that they were pushing for would benefit them. It didn't know because it's so much of the mission.

And it's even in the video of the last episode where Nancy says this is a mission. It's not you're dedicating yourself to Keith or dedicat yourself to Nacy. This is a commitment to you and your growth. So that was the premise. ESP is not for anyone else, It's for you. I mean, trying to wrap my head around it now, it's obviously makes no sense. The mission was your growth. Here Sarah uses the term e s P, which stands for Executive Success Program. Nobody just opens a

cult in an office park one day. The Executive Success Program was a program and curriculum that Keith Rniery and Nancy Salzman were peddling as a program to tap and harness the potential within people, and that would call people out on the thoughts and beliefs that were blocking them from success. E SP is what Sarah signed up for with a goal of personal development and growth right your your growth, and it's it's it is really interesting, it is It is a really mind efford because they were

almost selling individuation when they were doing the opposite. Because what we know in any narcissistic structure, and whether that's a family, whether that's a couple, whether that's a workplace, and whether that's an organization like you were in the goal when we're trying to help someone grow out of that space and heal is to foster individuation a self outside of that, and that you can have a relationship

with someone but not subjugate yourself. That's that's that's sort of a core principle there, right, And nextium found a really really kind of well marketed, slick way of subjugation, which I've actually never really seen done so skillfully in my career. It's so ironic because this is actually a module that they taught is going from independence interdependence, looking at the child's parent relationship and I'm sure as a model he's stole from somewhere. Yeah, I don't know where,

it's not his. And they really did talk about how it was really not good to be dependent on anything, even to the point of like that's why we didn't drink or do drugs. There was one inconsistency that I saw throughout is that Nancy was super dependent on coffee. And they called her the energy jazzer by the mean, and she got she I mean, she was our role model for that frenzy as well that she was go go, go,

go gole never rest. And that was one of the very first sort of AHAs as I as I escaped, where I recognized that was a huge inconsistency is that we weren't supposed to be dependent on anything outside of ourselves to be happy, Like that's an attachment. You have to work your attachments. But we're all totally dependent on the organization and on the ownership dirt decisions. And I see that clearly with the people who are still loyal. For your listeners who don't know this, there are still

people that follow Keith. They're like just drowned. They don't know what to do with themselves because they don't they're they have nothing to plug into, and they're just correct right their dependency, and and they're holding onto it and won't let it go. What you're talking about is the dependency on something outside of someone that is excessive and that one derives their self esteem from and are incapable of holding space for other perspectives and seeing themselves as

an individual out of there. A lot of that is a definition of codependency, where the self esteem is completely linked into a structure outside of someone. So what you know next Singing was preaching simultaneously was codependency and independence, which are completely incompatible states. So there was a chronic state of confusion, yes for anyone, for anyone that that was confusing. And the other majorly confusing part was that it was a success program. I didn't join next thing

and I joined executive success programs. And the whole idea was as a goals program to help you achieve what you want to achieve in the world. We had these classes about your infinity goals and your long term goals and your short term goals, and I was achieving them, but then it was also getting in trouble for having

these attachments. And I couldn't wrap my head around like all the people that were around Keith seemed to have given up their goals and their attachments and now we're living in Albany and seemed really miserable and thin, and I just didn't understand like, And I think that's actually what saved me, is that I refused to give up my goals and I always had one foot out in reality. Isolation is an essential dynamic in all toxic relationships, whether

it is an organization or program or an individual. The framing is often you are too attached to other things, other people, and the person is left feeling that the only way forward is to detach from important relationships outside

of the toxic structure. Isolation is necessary if a person or a group is going to try to control another person, and ESP and Nexium were framing these as attachments that needed to be rejected, and then real commitment meant that you moved to their center of operations in Albany, isolating people further Sarah's resistance to this is a major protective factor that did save you is that you know you

did have that foot in reality. By your own description, you said, you've come from a happy family, respected your parents, you admire your parents. That that helps, Yes, that definitely creates a sort of one piece of resilience bedrock, even when this stuff is floating around you. And you went in, and I think that this is what's important for listeners to hear, you went in motivated by personal growth. That

was the motivation, and community and meaning and purpose. Those are what any therapist would be sort of extolling as virtues for an individual. So it's not some sort of sinister vision that was bringing you, or it sounds like anybody into executive success programs. They were just they were they were trying to better themselves and they seemed like

a way to do that. And that's understandable. How did you view Keith FORNERI when you met him, because I think that he's such a central figure in this and when we heard Mark Vicente, like you said, it's been on this podcast, the reaction and the interaction with this man is going to be very different. And I want to hear from a woman who's had an interaction with this man, because I found him repulsive in every way, shape and form, from every photo to every word to

the sound of his voice. Obviously I had already heard the story, but from the beginning you come into executive success programs, Marcus saying that it's really you know, it's helped him, you admired him. You come in, What was

that first exposure to this man? Like? So the first exposure and I listen, my my arc with Keith changed a lot over the twelve years, but my first exposure was after I had taken a five day in Vancouver and then eleven day in Albany, where before and after every class we're saying thank you van Guard, thank you Vanguard. And the women who am I grow to respect are what we call like the Greek chorus. They're singing his praises, they're putting him on a pedestal talking about this how

this man changed our lives. And by the time I finished that curriculum, I mean, I was hooked into the concepts that we're being sold to me. I was, I was, this is what I wanted to do, and I wanted to bring it to Canada. I totally respected this man before I even met him, is in terms of this is the brain that created this technology quote unquote. But when I met him, I definitely was very underwhelmed. I

thought he was schlubby and not put together. I'm a put together person to the point of being like borderline O C D, you know what I mean, And so I'm looking at him going. But any time there was a forum where Keith spoke for the first time to new people, like a Vanguard Week or if they're look he did something of volleyball, Nancy would always debrief the forum and she would always say, wasn't he amazing? You know,

wasn't he just incredible? And somebody knew would put up their hand and say, it's so weird because like he just seems so normal, like it just seems like a just a guy, and she would spin that as it is that incredible, that he just brings himself to our level and makes himself so accessible. That was the spin. He is a genius, but he's just a volleyball playing nerd, you know, the sort of humble thing. Yes, And I was actually struck, you know, even when Mark said he's

the smartest guy. And I've listened to a lot of him trying to understand this and kind of underwhelmed, like I don't think he was saying seemed particularly smart, Like I think a really solid second year grad student would know that. I think like I haven't seen anything in any of the documentaries that would show like the full two hour forum, right, so that would be boring for everybody. But there were times when a form would lay out a bunch of concepts that seemed profound, and a lot

of it seemed like was over my head. But everyone else is smiling and nodding, So I'm thinking I'm not smart enough for this, or I'm missing it. I found out later that most people felt the same way because it was a word salad, and word salad is a classical tool of anybody who actually doesn't know what they're talking about, but grandiose sleep must believe there are some sort of genius or messiah or whatever they believe or

as it were, vanguard. Did that? Did that set off any red flags for you that have to call another human being by some sort of bizarre title sent I mean, all the things that happened in day one of the five day calling a vanguard, wearing sashes, bowing all the rules and rituals were massive red flags for me. But they had very smartly said right from the beginning, you're here to work. You're here to work your stuff. That's going to be uncomfortable. You agree when you were when

you're working on your issues at something. We all agree, yes, all successful people I want to know their limitations. Yes we agree. So we've agreed to be that successful people know their limitations. We've agreed that our limitations are going to be uncomfortable, and we're gonna feel uncomfortable. So when we're uncomfortable we have the urge to leave, we agree to stay in the room and talk it through with

a coach. So from the beginning, I'm agreeing to ignore my red flags because I'm a successful person and I want I want to work through my issues. So when I'm feeling like that, We're calling this guy vangor that I've never met, and then they say something before I can even put in my hand. Some people feel uncomfortable with this if they have suppressive tendencies or if they have some authority issues. So then I don't want to put in my hand and admit that I'm now a

suppressive person. All I know is that I want to be a good girl, which is also one of my unhealthy traits. Right, I've learned about myself that I'm outwardly obedient and inwardly disobedient, and and now I'm I'm not. I'm not a sheep anymore, and which is That's been a big part of my healing journey. But at this time, there's nine people in our class. This is not a person seminars nine students and probably just as many, if not more coaches. So we were being washed. We're like

everyone's looking at her every move. I'm not going to be like, what's with the sash craziness? Like I'm like, uh okay. One of the things I said also is when you go to someone's home and they asked you take off your shoes, you take off your shoes because it's their home. And there are a lot of the a lot of the rules were pitched that way, like this is what we do here, just for five days, you wear a sash, we bow to this person. Okay, I'll follow your rules, you know what I mean, Like

it's it's not forever. It's interesting you made you made a comment early on because I just connected those dots here too, is that as we again you're right, as we look at this through the you know, through the lens of everything that happened, you know, the idea of vanguards and bowing and sashes and all of that, we can see it for all the you know, the terrible things that it is. But you had even said that in some ways sort of the system of stripes and

everything was resident of martial arts. So too is bowing and sashes and belts and so I mean, they were taking some of the iconography of something that actually has a lot of respect, and rightfully so, martial arts is actually a place of tremendous sort of focus and discipline in and of itself, is actually a really great mindfulness tool,

confidence building tool. So one would say, see that the idea of bowing to someone is built into another practice and so each one of these things that could feel troubling, just like in any toxic relationship, could rather quickly be justified. Sense of and in fact and in fact, I want to come back, I don't want to jump around too much, but you said, you know, one thing you had said about anyone who spoke, who provided a critique was shut

down as being someone who is suppressive. That to me was the ultimate grooming technique, because what they were doing was they were creating this homogeneity because nobody wanted to be out it right. The whole idea was to belong, and so ostracism was going to sting even more in

an organization like this. And ostracism is actually one of the greatest human fears there is because once upon a time in human history, to be ostracized would have been to starve to death, you know, because you needed your community to eat and all of that. So it still

remains a primal fear. So by calling people suppressive, when I heard that over and over, not just in the vow, but in your book and anything else I've read, I thought, isn't this interesting because this happens in narcissistic families all the time. If anybody speaks out or speaks up against

something that doesn't feel right. That child or adolescent and even adult in those family systems is told they're ungrateful, that they're they're a problem, that they're breaking with tradition, they're not you know, all the things that a family would do to keep everybody in line, rather than celebrating that someone's either an individual or maybe making a really

good point. And so that concept kept coming up over and over again, and you bring up something that you know, we often talk about grooming in line with narcissistic relationships and toxic relationships. What we don't talk enough about is screening, and that's a lot of what the early phase of these relationships is. In many ways, what they're trying to do is it's almost like sort of you know, casing the joint or sort of shaking down a mark, like ken,

is this a person I can hustle? Right? Am I going to be able to get the money out of them? It's no different than anyone who's walking down the street and they're playing tea with three card monty, who really stops to play that game? That person is already a sucker, right. They think they can beat the game, And so I think that there's this screening process that happens in any of these toxic relationships of if we're already getting them to suspend their incredulity to say, okay, I can work

with this whole Sash and Vanguard thing. They're screening people, and I have to wonder if some of those early days weren't these screens as it were, and that you were almost sifting and then some people would say, oh, heck no, I mean level screens. You know. They might even say, and this is interesting because in Keith's history, he had a history of multi level marketing. They might even say this feels pyramid E today. You know, and you were doing, you were having to you were told

you had to bring new people in. And any time I hear about somebody being told they have to bring new people and I'm like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. MLM, which totally we've had reverted Levin's on this podcast. So I know you know as well that idea of recruitment to me, and we know MLM structures and cult structures are quite similar. My session with Sarah will continue after

this break. How did it feel for you having to recruit people and did you believe in it so much or did you want it to work that you're like, I'm going to do the thing they're asking so I can continue ascending into this program. Unfortunately, that was a really natural fit for me. I've always I've always been somebody who brought people along on whatever it was I

was doing. I was good at sales from a young age, whether it's a garage sales when I was young, and then like selling candy bars in Greade ten to raise money for the new TV. I was always I don't know if it was my network or just how I am I when I believe in something, and even what I'm doing right now with the podcast and like being a advocate for cult recovery, like I the loyalist right now,

who are still loyal to Keith. I shouldn't have watched, but I watched one of their YouTube responses, and I'm going to send you the lad because it will blow your mind. One of the things is that they've said, you know, Sarah was a good salesperson building it. She's a good salesperson now with this with this narrative, like there, the whole thing is, this is Sarah mun Sin's a narrative, by the way, giving me a lot of potency because

let's just say I'm making it up. You know, I did it for the book deal, as they said, what about all the other women and the other thing. I don't think I brought I did this in the book because I have still have a family member involved. But before did next Um, I was prepherbal to an MLM that my mom had signed me up in. I'm more I'm more public about it now because I just feel like it's it's weird to not disclose it. And I did okay in it, but I'd already learned about like

how to recruit and it was a similar structure. You bring two people in and you train them to bring two people in, and it was like a vitamin thing. So I've already gone through some of that sales training. So that in combination with me being so zealous about

whatever I'm into. Plus I had that women's group that I was doing the artist way with and I was trying to I'm not a therapist, but like you know, my parents are, so I'm always trying to help people and counsel people casually in a way that many people find annoying some people find helpful. I've learned to ask, now would you like my advice or would you like

to me just just listen? But I had this group of women and I was like, this is this is the thing that we need, Like I haven't been able to help any of us through our limiting beliefs, in our stuffling blocks. I felt very good about bringing this what I learned to them. And you know when I went to next UM, I didn't know about the financial opportunity or like that wasn't that was an offer to me?

Was this for my personal growth? And then once I took it, like, oh, you can take it and you can bring two people and get your money back, and if you bring six people, you can earn a commission and that's how you can pay for your next courses. And it kind of built from there and then it was like, wow, I can make more money than I ever did in acting, and I can change the world, and why wouldn't I get paid for helping people grow?

Like it was you know I had some challenges along the way, but if I did, I'd just get them M which is your exploration? That was next point? Is these E M s? This idea of exploration of meaning and this idea that it's your why. They were constantly making you look for your why. Not necessarily a bad thing, except the e M s were only applied when you

were doing something that was raising friction. It seemed like with the organization, when you weren't complying, when you weren't moving the way they wanted, it seems like that's when there would be a push. They could be used that way, but they started in the five Day the way the way it was originally presented. As you came to the five day with like, you know, what are your goals?

And I want to be a better actress and I want to have a better relationship with my partner, and you you presented two things Stimus responses that you were challenged by, and one of them that I presented was my ex boyfriend leaving dishes in the sink and basically like anything that exposed my my pseudo CD right and feeling angry that this control issues right. So my first e M was unhooking the stimulus the dishes to my response. So and then I've I feel like I don't react

to that anymore. What A what A? What a relief. Right, So now I have this impression that I can work through any reaction I have. So if I'm upset about something and e M is then applied to work through my reaction, not there's a problem with the thing that I'm upset with, That's what I'm saying. And that can over time cultivate a lot of self doubt, yes, and it destroyted view of the world. So you're in it. Let me go back for one minute, because I think

red flags or early signs are so important. If you were to sort of say, what were the first few red flags that you saw that that you still pushed beyond, But what were the red flags that now you say that really was that was the thing? And this is such a good question. And I wish that I had the education I have now back then, because obviously it

would have made very different decisions. But the very first red flag was the pressure to even sign up when I met Mark, And it wasn't him, because he wasn't a salesperson yet. It was somebody else who was running around with an application and saying, you know, you gotta get your forty eight hour discount. Knowing what I know now, I would say I feel like you're pressuring me, and if I really want to do this, it'll still be here down the road, you know. That's what I would say.

First red flag, then getting to the training. Even before I got to the training, I tried to get my money back because I changed my mind and I got gaslet slash peer pressured, slash manipulated to believe that this was like the only thing that was going to change my life. Second red flag, third red flag, getting to the training and all the things we've talked about, the sashes edifying this this person I had never met. Nancy's eyebrows and her bath and power suit, like just the

whole thing. I mean, I'm joking, but like the whole thing was so cheesy. It was so tacky, and I didn't like that it wasn't that was something I had to like, overlook and overlook even for the twelve years when I really loved it. I'd have to say to people that there are some people I wouldn't even bring in because I knew that they wouldn't be able to look if I found it cheesy and tachi, they wouldn't be able to see past it. So then I just

didn't even tell them, you know what I mean. So those red flags to me are interesting because those are almost what I would call life the red flags, And what I mean by that is a high pressure sales technique.

You know, anyone's doing it that much of a high pressure sale on you, it means you're probably paying too much for something that isn't worth it, right, you know, if the car guys chasing you around the dealership, I'm like, peace, I could now I know what I'm dealing with, and I'm going to be able to find this better, cheaper whatever. So that was that sort of sales pressure thing. And then it was sort of said the cheesy part, right, like do I really want to be at this sort

of cheesy thing? When did the red flags for you transform from these more sort of life red flags into something that kind of left you more sort of unsettled red flags? The red flags that kind of sit that kind of give you that sort of feel a little bit of a very uncomfortable maybe even hairs on the back of your neck. Red flags. That's a good question. I didn't get those. I didn't get those in the

five day early on. No, No, the things that were more unsettling, I mean Albany in general, just the whole setting. I intuitively felt I just never wanted to go. It didn't like the area, like there was something about it. Oh, and I forgot to mention because you asked me earlier about Keith. I'm going to come back to that. I want to. I just want to say something that I forgot to say is that it also intuitively felt very like I couldn't get close to him, like I didn't

want to. And and people I was like, well, you know you're in town, why don't you the women around him, why don't you ask Keith if he's available to go for a walk. And like my thought was, what would I say to him? Because you were also not supposed to ask him for anything that you could ask someone else or like Google, you know what I mean. You don't want to waste his time. You only ask them things that only he knows, So like I don't have

anything to and I kind of kept my distance. I only had two private walks with him that I can remember my whole twelve years there. I never let myself get close to him. I didn't I didn't want to, and and and in those times he gave me really awful feedback that was super uncomfortable, so I never did it again. There were red flags around my friend Nicki,

who's still loyal to Keith, I brought her in. So I brought Nicky in and she moved to Albany, I think within a couple of years, and I'm just remember thinking, you why even Albany to go? Keith couldn't mentor me and my acting career, and her career was already more successful than mine was. So I was like, okay, you know.

And it wasn't until I came to visit later, maybe even a year in, and I wanted to spend time with her, and she said something like I can't because I just need to be available for Keith, right, And I was like, I had the hit, you know, when you have a hit that someone's sleeping with somebody. But then I dismissed it because a the age difference and be look at Keith and see he's the and also we've been told he was he was celibate, which is obviously so ridiculous now since we know that he's a

sex addict. But that was like a oh, no, can be you know. And I had that with other women that I, and then I and then I remember asking around and people being like, he's a very very intimate relationship. He's mentoring people's intimate relationships, but he's celibate. So it's just then I would see that a lot, and I just assumed that that's how he worked with people. And then later as time went on, as I asked more questions to be like, how is that any anyone's business?

You know, and that sort of became the thing, like it keeps private life. And then as I compartmentalized, so there were things that were uncomfortable, but you were also growing and so you're you're sort of growing within this organization, you're succeeding. And also you're not in Albany, so you're not sort of in the center storm of what we're seeing in all these TV programs, which you feel if you were in that day to day it would have

probably really unsettled you. But you're actually building out things and running them in some ways the way you want to run them. In Vancouver in the Northwest. Time goes on, though, and you meet your husband even so, I mean, there's wonderful things happening, and you're a mean person would be your husband, and you get pregnant, and I have to say, and I look at your story in many ways, I

think your pregnancy and your child is ultimately what saved you. Yeah, you know, because it was there was to be no other priority for you. And it was very striking to me, Sarah, how children weren't built into that structure there that how many people I watched it. I'm like, we're out the kids. I have a mom. I'm a mom, right, so I'm always like, I couldn't have gone to these things. I have been running around off my kids and picking them

up from music practice and all of this. So but I saw that, and I thought, that's very interesting to me, because if somebody did have a child in any form of a healthy way, that would have almost just pulled them away from the orthodoxy of what this was. And although Nancy Saltzman was a mother, she came into this after her children were grown, and interestingly, he almost caught her at a point where a woman is almost vulnerable again.

And though after your children sort of grow up and out, you have a chance to sort of launch a second phase of your life. And and so she was almost caught in this second renaissance that a woman's life has at that time. All of that said, can you share with us what it was like at the point when things start getting sort of dark? Because what to me was always so compelling knowing Mark now is that Mark

brought you into something that was ultimately harmful. And I've never quite understood how that might have affected your a friendship between you because at one level you might say, Wow, what did you get at me and get me into? But you would sort of evolved so much in the process, But it was really Mark and Bonnie who and you together? It was like this, something is not right here? What did things become like for you? Because basically what you were doing? Just to give you context is how I

approached this. I tell people you never want to call out a narcissist. Never. You don't go up to someone's a YO you're narcissistic, or YO you're toxic. It's never going to work out for your say, once you recognize this, now you've got to run a ground game to give yourself a chance to build boundaries, to start separating, ow disengage, give yourself a safe space. You may not be able

to leave this relationship. And I'm not saying that that's the right way, but you can't keep bringing your A game to this and you cannot invest your identity into this, no way, no how, that's the play. And so in some ways what was happening is you were now sensing alongside these other folks, this is not right, something is not right. Talk to us about your life at that point. So this would have been I mean, the last year before I left, couple of years there were a lot

of things that were happening that I couldn't reconcile. And I'm sure you've used this metaphor of metaphor before put them on the shelf to shelve them. One of them was that Keith had created this new company, Ultima, that had like an acting program, the Source, the Knife, which was for media, ethical media, a number of other companies, and and to do that, he pulled basically my staff from Vancouver, like eight percent of my staff to come

to Albany and build these new companies. And it was an opportunity to for people to be entrepreneurs and be mentored by Keith directly. Blah blah blah. That was a very challenging for me. And you're you're right, I did run my center the way that I wanted to. I'd like to say that I took the good of it and had this little community. Not to say that there wasn't bad things, but ultimately I even got in trouble by the way for Nancy who came once and she's like,

there's not enough tribute for Keith and I here. They're they're not people. I don't even know who I am enough, like she didn't she wasn't a doored enough. Yeah. So like a lot of this stuff just wrabbed me the wrong way, and I just stripped it my own way. Right. So ultima was happening. I was helping to build it, but kind of reluctantly and being like, okay, guys, if you're gonna go to Albany, like make sure you get it on paper what the contract is. Because I knew

many of them I lost forever. Some of them never came back. Wow, and remember too, I mean, at one point, I think it's important to make Jeffer and Sarah's for many years you worked for free, Yes, for this program, from like at least four and a half years. I mean, there was lots of things I did for free and lots of things I got really got paid really well for, and a lot of that money went right back into

more trainings. And the center was incredibly expensive to run, going back and forth Albany because as you know, I never never moved there. But during this time I also didn't stop getting paid for some of building some of those things which didn't feel right. And when I voiced that, I was told I was being entitled right, so, which was one of the number one negative traits of being a woman. So all of this in the backdrop is s op is running in Janess's running. These are new curriculums.

There was like so much training to take. We had to take us to take Jenness, we had to take the source. I didn't take the knife because I just didn't didn't want to. Also, I got I had the excuse of my new baby to get me out of things at this point. So there we was just things I was shelving. There's too many curriculums. I wasn't getting paid. You couldn't voice a complaint because now you're either not only suppressive, but you're you're entitled right. So they're pathologizing

self advocacy. Yes, that's that's what's happening, and again classical play, classically and the narcissistic relationship. If a person really tries to fight for themselves, advocate for themselves, make a need known, they work with the courage to make a need known. They are told you're selfish, you're entitled, you're difficult, and that,

for many people is an instant shutdown. Yeah, so all all of that was happening, and my priorities were being shifted to my family, and I guess, like I I didn't really even realize that I wasn't on board anymore because I had such a big investment. You know, my rent at the Center was like seven grand a month, needs a lot of money. I was so disconnected from those things, Like I always thought I was going to be a life or an exime life or this is

the rest of my life. And I think that now that I've seen the vow as Keith was ramping up recognizing women would leave him, and he was ramping up his own, um, you know, trying to lock down his loyalty for for the women in his life and then through them other women. So we always have a fresh supply of women and powers. How I see it now, that's when I got invited into dust. Okay, so that's when you got invited to jos so before we get

into Doss, which is so so so dark. It's fascinating to me all these names, Ultima s OP which is Society of Protectors, Janess which stands for nothing and sounds like a feminine hygiene product. And I believe that he what we were told it came from the route where like gynecology g U I N and then and then it sounded too gynecological. I was like, so that he made it Jane s janess like and the the nest of the the woman. That's how it was. I was like, yeah,

meman in hygiene is what jumped out at me. But like all these names, this is what you see though in any kind of toxic organization, is this sort of these these secret handshakes and names and anything that almost isolates it rather than like a men's group or women's empowerment group. No, no, no, it had to have all these code names, which actually creates a very different kind of and more intense kind of a buy in in the sense that you're in something quote unquote special special. Now,

there was definitely the whole time. And this is something that I'm sure you can see from a mile away that I couldn't see at the time. It's just the collective ego of the group, you know, the specialness, the eliteness that we And this is something the humble pie I've really had to eat in my healing journey is I really was righteous. I really thought that I had the only way we'd meet people who were successful in

the world. Like if I had met you ten years ago, I would have wanted to connect with you and wanted to recruit you and think that you were doing good things, but that you really were limited because you weren't getting to the root cause and only we got to the root cause you were just putting band aids on things. I thought that about everybody interesting, that they didn't know what we know. In that way, you were a missionary. I mean, that's that's what proselytizing. That's what it was

was proselytizing, always prosletizing. And that's like the biggest freedom for me is to just to meet people now and just to like be interested in them and not think about what I wonder if they'd be more of a jinas person or esp person like trying to think about what, you know, what was wrong in their life that I could then show them a way out right, which is

a precarious way to go through the world. And before we talk about Dawson, I want to, you know, sort of set up that piece of Nancy Salzman, her daughter, Lauren Salzman. Yeah, Okay, they were very powerful people in nexting and one could argue that Nancy was Keith's right hand person, right and was the mother to Lauren Saltzman.

Obviously Nancy was older than Keith. Lauren was her daughter younger and apparently brought into the organization and when she was eighteen, and you and Lauren became very very close. And I think Lauren, it's important just for us to articulate that she was incredibly close to her. You wanted to be in her good graces like you, It was

important to you, and you did build a friendship. And then I think that really sets us up to talk about Das because what does DAWs Stanford Dominus subsequently Dominus obsequius, serrium, which sirium, yeah, which all of the names that we've since found out is his own personal kind of joke as well a god doss, he's a computer nerd from the eighties, right, So that's it's multiple meanings. But let

me just to backtrack for a second about Lauren. I thought that we were close, and now I know there's this whole part. I always felt that there's a part of her life I couldn't really you know, connect with her, and now I know why. But ultimately, when you look at how everyone was so adoring to Keiths and how they worshiped him, I probably more was like that with

Nancy and Lauren. I totally had them both on a pedestal, and Lauren and nance se were they were my guiding light for who I wanted to be, and this was like baked into the curriculum. It would always be things like you know who who who has the traits that you wish you could have, and what are those traits? And you know, nurturing and helps others and all the things that I was now I know, projecting myself and my own values onto them. But they I thought were

my guiding principles. And so when when somebody like Lauren, who by the way, is also the head of education, so any promotion, anytime you're going to grow up the stripe path has to go through her. She's she's the guardian of those gates, so she's head of education. She's also who I trusted with all my personal stuff, anything was going on in my marriage. She knew me better probably than anyone. I didn't know she was reporting to Keith, but I found that out later. My session with Sarah

will continue after this break. So you and Lauren are very close. She has a lot of decision making power in the organization, especially about how people had aunts and she approached you about something new. Can you tell us how she approached you and how all of that unfolded, because this was definitely the turning point. This was the

turning point. This would be January of seventeen, and she came out to Vancouver to train a five day which at her level was a very rare thing that would only happen if I had what we called v I P s, like some famous entrepreneur actor, than somebody like Lauren or Nancy might train that that five days. So the fact that she was coming out was exciting. I didn't really know why. But when she got to Vancouver, she said to me that she wanted to talk to

me about something. My first thought was that I was in trouble, because that's normally how it started. And I was going to get some feedback or something, and she's like, no, no no, I want to I wanna tell you about something. And then when we finally had a moment to ourselves, she asked me how committed I was to my growth?

And I said, very committed. And to keep in mind, this is at a time when I was feeling a little stuck right and and disconnected from the communit and I'm focusing my family but not ready to pull out. My shelf hadn't broken yet. And she said, what are you willing to do for your growth? And I said something very similar to what I found out Lawrence said to Keith in the Vow, the episode that focuses on her.

I realized that she had said to me pretty much what Keith said to her, setting her up to basically agree to do anything for her growth. She did that to me, and then she said she wanted to invite

me to something, and she got very excited. She said, you want to invite me to something that had helped her more than anything that she'd ever done, including anything and nexium and before I could hear about it to give her collateral to make sure that I kept my word or kept the secrets around what she was going to tell me. Can you explain what collaterally and listen? I understand going back to your very first common of people saying like, why would people do that? Why would

why would she say yes that? Why would she give collateral? Collateral had been normalized, had been a part of the curriculum since where people had started to use collateral as we were taught as a weight to our word. So if I said I'm going to go to the gym and I don't my collateral, something i'd put on the table, say maybe when you give like five dollars to charity

or something like that. So there was like a wait to my commitments, right, So it's not like it's not like a swear jar, like I'm going to put a dollar in a jar every time I say the effort, in which case I'd probably just drop a twenty in and let it rip. That's not a high stake you're saying, like I don't go to the gym, it's five thousand dollars. So much so that you'd say, oh, okay, I am not not going to do this, Okay, so it's it's

a big buy in, but it's a big buyon. So it was money, it was sometimes, it was money sometimes. And then there was another concept introduced called penance. I didn't realize because I wasn't raised religious, that this is a religious concept. So people were doing things like they collateralized their word with the penance, like having cold showers for a week, or waking up at three am and

doing burpees in the snow like some painful thing. One thing we talked about a lot next him is there's a choice point in the choice between staying in bed and being comfortable or getting up and doing what you say you're going to do. In that choice point, you have to weigh. And Nancy says this in the vow, there's the ideology of who you are versus the comfort of your body, and that's the struggle. So the idea is the collateral would motivate you out of the discomfort

to do the right thing. So when she's saying, when when Lauren is saying, I need you to collateralize this new thing I want you to do, was it money? Money was not an option? And like what like what She's like, oh, you know, like a nude photo or written confessional or I opted with written confessional as my first collateral. So I I wrote, I Sarah Edmondson in my twenties, blah blah blah, disclosed a bunch of things that like I wouldn't want to be public. And she

took a photo of it. She sent it to somebody and then said it's not bad enough, and I said, I don't. I don't have a like I've been a good girl, Like you know, I've dabbled in some recreational drugs and you know, experiment was and things. But I had to make it worse. So I exaggerated all the things and said things that weren't true in a written statement that she held, and that was enough collateral for me to be invited into dous what's done with the collateral?

I understand that I don't go to the gym, I have to pay a thousand dollars. Okay, that's me accountable to me in some really intense, over the top way. But now they have could be a naked picture, it could be a confession. What is the implication of what's

going to be done with that collateral? Well, This is where this is the problem with everything that's happened since and people being loyal and even in the case, is that they said, we're just going to hold this, We're holding this to me for you, for you and your word. But if you don't obviously that the implication there is, if you don't hold your vow of secrecy, that will be released. What's the point of giving collateral or giving something to for somebody to hold to maintain a secret.

If that's the threat of release, isn't the holding it there like otherwise? I take it? So it's coercion, So collateralist coercid yes, okay, yeah, from now on, we can call it coercion or blackmail. Yeah, it's I mean, it's extortion,

it's coercion. But what's happening is though it's an agreement like you're blackmail is almost like an after the fact, But they're saying from the jump, you're going to give us this thing that we're going to imprison you with, yes, And so it's making it look like I agreed to that, yes, exactly. So I'm saying you can hold this to help me keep my word that I'm never gonna release this information. Because I trust you so much as my friends, like

the example of the Loyalists, give now. As I'm saying, like I have trouble drinking and driving, can you hold my keys, It's like I'm asking you for help here. So that's that's that's the metaphor, which doesn't make sense, but that's how they see it. The concept of collateral, the way Lauren framed it for this Doss group, was in essence, an attempt to make some one a collaborator in their own extortion. It is a very transparent, in your face form of manipulation that would result in a

sense of self blame and coercion. It means that after this collateral is gathered, that none of the behavior that follows it, nor is the giving of the collateral consensual. People will obey whatever the demands of DOS are not from a place of consent, but from a place of coercion, with the fear that my collateral could be made public. This form of psychological exploitation and manipulation is a severe form of emotional abuse. So that's the first step, and

from that point she invites menta DOS. So you've done your collateral, you've given it, you've made your confession story. Confession story I love wasn't entirely true, respect you even more. And then it made some standard standard. And then she invites me into DOS and she lays out the points, the first one being that it's a vow of obedience, and so I'm vowing to be obedient to her and

her to her as my master. This is a master slave relationship, which obviously my all the alarm balls are going off, the biggest red flags I've ever had my entire time. And she's saying, that's good. That means you're doing it right, Like, this is supposed to be really uncomfortable, because it's a big commitment. You should feel uncomfortable. What I'm asking of you is a lot, and it's not for everybody. When this concept of master enslavery to me,

slave is like it is a lightning rod word. You know, it is the it's the it is the worst experience of the humanization and degradation. Right even in the in the curriculum, we talk about how slavery is bad and people should have the right to the products of their own efforts. And now we're using this word, and I'm questioning this At this point, I feel like nothing you're doing you're consenting too, because there's so much manipulation happening.

And talk about consent when it is because this idea of you consented to give this collateral. Was this because you inherently trusted Lauren? Yeah? Absolutely. If Alison Mack had asked me this, I wouldn't even have said yes. I didn't respect her in that way. And none of the women actually except for Lauren. Wow, okay, so they knew what they were doing. They say to be pulled in okay, and that and I also later I found out was done with me, like, oh, Sarah should be the one

to invite this person. No, No, like there was very they were very strategic, but she was invited and by who Yeah, okay, so now you are in this group. She's using terminology like master and sla with a straight face's do this. But also, like, remember when I talked about how people taught rules and rituals and they'd be like, well, so you know, there's the martial arts and it was

the same thing. Lauren was the best at teaching that module, and she was the best at doing this because she was like, you know, it's not really a master sly because you're in Vancouver and I'm an albuddy. It's like a guru disciple. Think of it as a heightened coaching coaching relationship. So that was my hook. That was my main reason for saying yes, is because Lauren is now offering to personally mentor me, even though we're close. It was very hard to get her time and I had

to pay her. It was and a M but that was her rate. He three something. So if I had wanted an EM from her and she's only one of the only people I amed with, that was very expensive. Now she's saying she's gonna personally mentor me, I call it. Call it whatever you want. I'm master slave. Sure, I'll be your slave. What do you want me to do for you? Veronoa? Okay, Like I had no idea how serious it was. It was it was an exercise that she was mentoring me, taking me into her wing, and

we're gonna call it master slave. Okay. So how did this play out? What did it mean to be her slave? Other than having to give her a lot of money to do these e m z s exploration I paid her before, Like when I was in the context of the of the structure of next time I would pay to get an a M from her, but getting one on one time with her even in trainings when I went to Albany, like maybe I could carve out a

quick coffee break like she was always so busy. So the fact that she's offering to mentor me on a date and check in with me daily, I'm down. Okay. Here are my takeaways from this conversation with Sarah. First, Sarah was very clear that they were both healthy and unhealthy aspects of herself that drew her into the situation and dynamics at ESP and Nexium, and this is why

it is also complicated. The challenge with any narcissistic situation is that there are elements that can be quite compelling and that even play upon healthy parts of ourselves, and yet simultaneously, neurotic fears such as not being good enough wanting to fit in, can also lead us to shape ourselves to fit these situations. We often want it to be simple that people get into this merely because of the unhealthy and neurotic parts of themselves. It's not that simple.

In my next takeaway, I had a rueful moment when Sarah called this the Golden Age of cult awareness. I think that's because it parallels what we are entering as the Golden Age of narcissism awareness. She's right. Never before have I seen so much content movies, streaming shows on cults and cult like organizations. However, knowledge, while important, is

not enough. This Golden Age needs to be a wake up call for people to do the deeper dive to recognize the patterns, universal and personal vulnerabilities to these patterns, and to stop falling into self doubt and disavowal of intuition at these times. In individual relationships, this is hard enough. In a cult, it can be downright impossible. Since there are so many people aligned with the distorted and manipulative behavior. The world still is drawn to the magnetic cults of personality.

We have to be willing to pull back the veil and recognize that the emperor is not only wearing any clothes, he may also be speaking in word salad. In this next takeaway, self improvement organizations of all kinds raise concerns about communal narcissism that a leader may be getting validation just by holding onto the grandiose vision that they are changing the world and actually having that grandiosity be emboldened by students and followers who become devotees instead of collaborators.

Any time a person enters a community singularly identified with an enigmatic leader who has been imbued with supposed virtues like genius, the safest play maybe to walk away. But if curiosity gets the best of you, then at least make sure you know where the exits are and maintain strong ties to people outside of the organization. It's quite clear that Sarah's pregnancy and then baby gave her something bigger than NEXI, M and E SP to focus on,

and that may very well have saved her. In our last takeaway from part one, Sarah had a fascinating observation. She said that within Nexium that self care was viewed as indulgent. That's not an uncommon technique used by antagonistic and narcissistic people to control a partner, family member, or

group member. One thing we know is that people in narcissistic relationships are notorious for their lack of self care, often neglecting medical care, rest other healthy routines, or pleasurable interludes like getting a massage or sleeping in self flagellation by collateralizing discomfort. Making people exercise in the snow, waking up at all hours is a way to create a

sort of trauma bonded buy in. In every narcissistic relationship I have ever witnessed, shaming of self care was a common theme at the end of this episode, Sarah's faith in the organization and in her relationships with some of the folks she most admires and Nexium, such as Lauren Saltzman,

are being tested and significant doubt has crept in. However, her belief in Lauren and the center Sarah has created in Vancouver matter to her, so as she's being pulled into the shadowy world of Doss, Sarah clearly recognizes that something is not right, but years of being indoctrinated into the social control and manipulation of the organization makes all of this very confusing. Stay tuned for our next episode,

when Sarah shares how it all fell apart. A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valen, Jethro Ellen Rakaton and Dr Rominey Divassla, And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, Associate producer Mara Dela Rosa and consultant Kelly Ebling and Fine Elie. Thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donaghy and Calvin Bailiff. H