Narcissism in the Fashion Industry w/ Barrett Pall

The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I Heart Media, or their employees. I have friends who have gotten so deep into drugs and drinking and sexual experiences that they did not consent to but thought it was

okay because it was a part of their job. It's a very, very, very toxic industry, and as you said, it praised on the young, and many of us come from broken families that don't have money and are very vulnerable. On this podcast, we have talked about all kinds of relationships, romantic relationships, marriages, families, cults, but we have not talked about workplaces as much. Can a workplace be narcissistic an

entire industry? I think so. While an industry or a workplace may not have a personality per se, it can have a culture and a culture characterized by minimal empathy, grandiosity, manipulation, gas lighting, invalidation, exploitation, and coercion. Well that would qualify as antagonistic or toxic. Today, we are going to hear from former model and current advocate and life coach Barrett.

Paul Barrett worked in the modeling industry for many years, and his experiences shine a harsh light on a seemingly glamorous industry which is characterized by power differentials, with money being made by commodifying young people who often have little recourse. Modeling is an industry which is highly competitive to enter, carries a reputation of glamor and status, and when lots of young people who often do not have money or power are clamoring to enter an industry, it is a

set up for betrayal and exploitation. This is one person story of his experience in the industry. Obviously, not all stories are the same. However, his story raises the specter of how this industry, and frankly, any industry, can keep enabling and emboldening toxic behavior. Let's hear Barrett's story. In this episode, everyone, we're gonna hear the story of former model turned activists Barrett Paul. So, Barrett, welcome. It's so nice to have you here. Thank you for having me here.

I'm really grateful for this safe space with you. Dr Romney, So thank you, thank you, thank you so much. So your story is its fascinating in so many ways, And and I think you're going to really be able to shed light on something that we don't often think about, which is an entire industry as being invalidating and antagonistic and frankly predatory. So and I think the best way for us to do that is for you to share your story within it. So let's go back sort of

to the beginning. Can you share with us some insights about where you came from, how you were raised, because that often can shed light on sort of a person's path. I mean, as much as it doesn't define us, nor does it set our destiny, it definitely puts something in the groundwater that sort of can influence obviously our choices and how we feel about things. So can you take us back to the beginning of your story. I'm originally

from Long Island, New York. My parents are people who I can now understand a lot better, but definitely have their own trauma and things that they have yet to still work through, and I think that that kind of manifested in their parenting and so growing up we were poor. We were evicted from four homes. Every single home we grew up and I grew up in we were evicted, And throughout my childhood there was a lot of bullying.

I'm queer, and I didn't understand what my differences were in a kind way from kind of my peers and the people around us. I'm gravel. My parents were always very accepting of me and who I was just being, but as a whole, that definitely played into I think a lot of the insecurities that I had and not feeling really safe anywhere. Again, I look at my parents and understand that they did the best they could with the tools they had, but they were not I think

healed themselves. So to create like a truly truly safe environment was definitely something that was not there. So not being safe anywhere, you know, does some things to you. And then as I got older, I remember just kind of escaping into movies and TV, and then finding out about modeling and thinking that this was, you know, for better or worse, an easy way to make a lot of money and maybe help my family out. And as the oldest, I've been working since I was fourteen at

least one job, typically three. And then while I was probably seventeen, I became a lifeguard, and around that same time I started to kind of come out of my awkward phase. I got my braces, got contacts, got hair cut, but still wasn't like very accepted in my overall surroundings by the people that I went to school with. And the first time I ever took a picture that I was like, oh, I like the way that I look.

It was actually one of my brother's friends dads, who was a teacher at the school, And looking back, it's all kind of strange, like why would this grown adult man want to just come and take my picture while I was lifeguarding at the beach. But those pictures kind of were the first thing that I remember seeing. I mean, like, oh,

I like the way that I look. Friends saw it, people were like, oh, Barrett, and I was like, I don't know what this means, but okay, I'm starting to get some sort of validation from people that I had never had before. That was nice. And then I got to n y U for my freshman year of college and my friends were like just good people. They were from other parts of the world. They were smart, they were interesting, they didn't judge me. They were also looking

to make friends. And I remember the first time my best friends still to this day. Bianca was like, you should be a model, like you're our hot friend, and I was like, what does that mean, Like I don't know what I don't understand. And then I was encouraged by my friends to take pictures in the dorm room submit them to modeling agencies. Herd back was told, you know, if you were six ft tall, you'd be making six figures, but you're not, so we don't think we can sign you.

And then eventually through the grapevine at Abercromie and Fitch on Fifth Avenue, which is the flagship in New York City, met a few models while I was working there, and they recommended their agency B One, which was the first molling agency I ever signed with, and I went to an open call while I was in the city during the summer between my freshman year and my sophomore year of college, met the guys who were running the agency, was two men. One of them was like, if you

cut your hair and come back, we'll sign you. And I was like, it's just hair, sounds good to me. Cut my hair, went back, signed with them, and then it was kind of the beginning of the end because it was just really downhill from there. So the first time that I was prayed upon in this industry was a photographer. It was the very first photos shoot I

ever did. And I had originally met this photographer on a platform called model Mayhem, which was the networking platform for people who want to get into the fashion industry, so models, photographers, hair stylus, makeup artist, and he connected with me and found me and inquire about shooting me. And I had just gotten really weird, not great vibes from our messages, and so you know, I trusted my instincts and my gut and was like, you know, thank you,

but no thank you, being polite. I'm professional. But then, you know, eight months later, signing with this agency which no longer exists, meeting them, having them signed me, after having you know them cut my hair, and they were like, you know, the first person you're gonna be shooting with. Is this photographer the same one who I had spoken to on that model Mayhem messaging platform, and just being like, well,

I can trust my agents. They want the best for me, so kind of, you know, putting the red flags that I had had in the past aside and and going forward and meeting with him, And that was the beginning of the end. Barrett's story is just one more example of how other people can undermine our intuition and talk us out of the red flags and the discomfort we feel.

And this is really pronounced for younger people. The irony is that once upon a time we were taught I know I was taught this as a child, don't take candy from strangers. That's just the top of a dangerous iceberg. We really need to help children and adolescents stay connected to that intuition and teach them that the red flag may need to supersede what other so called grown ups

are recommending. It's a tough line to balance on fostering a healthy cynicism and stronger intuition in children who, since time immemorial, have been told to unquestioning lee obey their elders. We dive more into this in this episode. You're really young, you know. I think we sort of like we use eighteen is this magic number, but adolescence sort of almost

keeps creeping into a person's twenties. One thing you said that really jumped out of me and I found quite interesting is that when you were in Model Mayhem, that was before you got an agent, before you've got representation. So it's just a networking just to see how you know people were working through the industry. Yes, And what I find so interesting is that you your red flag meter went off with this guy, so it was on,

it was working. Why do you think that was? Because I always interested when people's actually instincts are on and are working for them. Where did you think, as an eighteen nineteen year old you have the capacity to know other than a person literally saying something explicit. Where do you think that capacity to assess that situation and recognize that there was something not right here? What do you

think that came from for you? I think growing up queer and never feeling safe, you develop a second sense of what is okay? What is it okay? They talk about this a lot of anti racism work that it's a double consciousness, and I think queer people have to develop it as well. And so you know, surveying a scene quickly being like, am I safe here if I opened my mouth with something that I remember doing all

the time as a child. I think it developed differently for these kind of things, but I think it was something that continued and still today continues to develop so that I can understand when I am safe and when I'm not safe. You know, it's interesting with the double consciousness because it can sometimes go the other way that a person is so sort of overwhelmed by a system that is not their system, that they give in, that they capitulate they re right. And so you were having

both of those experiences happen. Initially, Actually, the double consciousness element was working well for you, and I think it works well for many to be able to do do a much more pronounced safety assessment, which I think anyone from any group that's marginalized in any way by society has to learn and and in fact is often gaslighted about, Oh, don't be ridiculous, this is totally safe, right, And so then you get these folks, you sign with these folks,

and then there's an attribution of responsibility given to them, and that's when you had the flip of then the sort of capitulation. So you almost had both experiences happen in a pretty narrow period of time. Definitely, And as I continue to deconstruct this situation and look back and even right now, I'm I don't think I've thought about

this before. But the photographer had been a professional in this industry for like years and years, so he knew that he could go onto this platform and find new young, naive, green people and take advantage of them. So you then get assigned to this photographer and despite you having this suspicion, there was an assumption of safety that was provided by

the agents. Did that lead you to look back and say, maybe I was judging the situation wrong way back in the Model Mayhem day, So you were doubting you absolutely, And see that's when the house of cards falls apart. When we doubt ourselves, that's when and we we almost It's like I can imagine a person reaching behind their back and turning a switch off on their back called instinct and intuition. And then eight months later, you then agree to meet the photographer for what you're told is

actually going to be a shoot for something to sell something. Well. So, unfortunately, the way that the modeling industry works is that you have to build a book, you know, that's what you use to go on casting, so that people that want to book you for a future job that does pay can look through it and go, Okay, this is what we can get from this person. And so you do a lot of what's called test shoots, and a test

shoot is when you essentially do it for trades. The photographer gets photos from you, you get photos from the photographer, and it builds both of your book to then help other people want to shoot with a photographer or book you as the model. And so it wasn't even for anything. So the agents are invested in you having these kinds of almost transactional shoots because it's establishing your book, which

makes you easier to book. Yes, I'm sent to meet him once quickly before it is like an introduction, and you get sent to his studio. And this is something that I continue to talk about a lot of these photographers studios are their homes, so you're sent to their position of power where they're full in control as well. But you're told that this is normal, this is how it works with so many people, and you go, I don't know what normal is. I'm not in the industry.

The most information I had was from America's next Top Model, which we've now is also from TV, which we now know has also been not the greatest representation for the industry. And so I went and he was shooting someone else and I met him, and again it wasn't like the best energy. He looked at me like meat, and he had even kind of alluded to like being attracted to me in messages, So I just remember being like, this

doesn't feel great. I was also not out. I was still not comfortable with my own sexuality then, so that kind of forwardness was also off putting in not wanted. We've talked about grooming on this podcast before, which is a very specific process. This is almost a related process because what this guy was doing was hanging out on this model Mayhem platform where he was being a predator and just sort of almost sussing out who we could

find and then making relationships with legitimized people. And this world does not see toxic people for what they are, which is why they're allowed to run everything Okay, so they insinuate themselves into these systems, which this guy did, that gives them legitimacy and being predatory, is it? It's not. It's not a one off. It's not just the person who jumps at someone out of the bushes. It's a process.

It's about infiltrating multiple systems. So he did that. You went to his studio, and if you feel comfortable, what happened when you went to his studio? Yeah, So something else I found kind of strange from the whole scheduling and you know, questions that I'm asking in my head because this isn't what I thought it was going to be. Like the shoot was scheduled for night, so I was sent to his apartment like later in the day going and I knew it was going to be sexy, but

my agents also needed me in clothes. So I get there and in my brain, on a photo shoot, you have hair, you have makeup, you have stylists, you know, you have a team of people. It was him and his photo assistant, and it was a rack of clothes and I remember specifically then being h and them closed. So it wasn't even like these were some really amazing high end clothes. Again, the story of my brain was you go and there's like Gucci and tom Ford and

like it's fashion and high fashion at that. But I trusted the process because that's what I was told to do. There was no hair and makeup. He had me sitting in chair and he did my hair in my makeup. And again, looking back, I'm now able to understand that that was him getting me comfortable with his touch, which is so messed up in so many ways. I even asked, like, why isn't there like hair and makeup, and he's like, well, I know what I want. It's just faster this way.

I don't have to explain it to someone. And I was like, oh, okay, Like what do I know. I'm brand new, I'm nineteen, I'm clueless to this world. And then from there, you know, the rack of clothes is sitting right in the middle of the living room where the whole shoots happening. It's a small apartment in New York by the way, It's not like this big, amazing, fancy apartment. It's in the lower side, so it's tiny. There's not a place or the encouragement to go to

the bathroom and change. It's like you can. I literally was like you can just change right here, and no big deal, no big deal, Like that was the energy that might have even been what was said. And so I'm you know, down in my underwear with in the first thirty minutes, changing in front of him and his photo assistant, and I put on the first look. Let me take pictures, and they look amazing, and I'm like, wow, this is the first time I've ever seen myself look

like this. This was like a fashion photo and I was like, okay, I'm a model. And it was really interesting because I remember just feeling this new feeling I had never felt before. I think it was a sense of confidence that I had never been gifted or developed because of just all the hard things that I had

gone through for so long. And then as the shoot goes on, you know, we changed clothes and then it's like we're gonna make it like a little sexier, and so you're in your pants and then you know, your shirtless and like that's okay, that doesn't feel too crazy, and then it becomes the weird part, and that's where we get down to underwear shoots, and I'm like okay,

like underwear. I knew this was kind of coming. It wasn't explicitly said to me from my agents, but I had a feeling based off of what I've seen from this photographer that this was coming. And the part that was like the beginning of like just the really big yuck was that he made a point that he needed to oil me down because I didn't need to get oil on my hands in case I touched the wall and that would show up in the photo. And because I even was like, oh, I can do this nineteen uncomfortable,

Like visually, I'm sure uncomfortable. I mean I have photos from when he took like my first photo of me and I'm a deer in headlights you can see like the fear in the eye, and so we take those and he's showing you along the way the photos, so you were like excited and you kind of go okay, like this is leading to something. This is going to

be my book again. That then helps me book these campaigns that help me make a lot of money, that help my family out so they don't have to be a victim from a home again, so I can pay my college tuition, so that I can be the person to take care of everyone. Is the oldest in my family. He's like, you did great. You should be so proud

of yourself. These photos look amazing. Your agents are gonna love them, and smiled, gave him a hug, said thank you so much, went home, cried and like blacked out, like not from drinking or anything, just like blacked out. Woke up the next day like so upset with myself and being like, what can I say to him that will get him not to use these photos anywhere? Understanding that I have to play like nice nice with him. I don't want to make him angry or upset or

retaliate or say that I'm difficult. You know that's something a lot of models have finally been speaking out about. Being difficult on set. Standing up for yourself is considered a bad thing. And so I just sent him an email being like, hey, you know, thank you so much for everything. I'm so excited for these photos. I can't wait to see them. I feel like, you know what happened when a little bit farther than I would have liked,

but overall again like thank you so much. You know that gratitude that you're supposed to have in this industry and him writing back being like, I'm so sorry you felt uncomfortable in any way. I won't use those photos anywhere, and I was like okay, And then it was just this dark seeker that I carried with myself for about a year before I told anyone. And I just told one friend after they disclose some really private information to me, and we just cried and hugged, and then I thought, okay,

Like that's that. When we look at toxic and antagonistic relationships in the workplace, Barrett's experience is consistent with a dynamic that many in these workplaces talk about, especially in high status or sought out types of work like modeling. There was an implicit indoctrination that if you speak out or even set a boundary, that you are being difficult.

And this idea that if someone does attempt to self advocate or set a healthy boundary, that they will be called difficult and then may lose opportunities, especially if they are just starting out. This can create an environment of fear and also an environment of people just acquiescing or

giving into these toxic patterns. This not only sustains these predatory behaviors and workplaces, it emboldens the people who do it, and it can leave the people who don't stand up for themselves feeling a sense of discomfort, self blame, and shame. Did you continue to grow in the modeling industry with other photographers and start booking other gigs and did you ever have to work with this person again? Yeah? I stayed in New York. I mean I was a sophomore

in college. I had to want to finish school. Had in school, I said that school is my priority, of saying a lot of money to go to anyone, but modeling was something that I thought could continue to help me, maybe say the bills, and so I kept modeling. I went on other photo shoots, had other bad experiences, not quite like this. Until later on in my career. Um more bad experiences would come and I ended up shooting

with him I think four times altogether. He's also much older, like not that that makes it one thing or another, but when I was nineteen, he was at least I think fifty. What that's a big issue. Absolutely, There's a tremendous amount of power that comes with age, with a presumption of establishment in the industry. It's that that matters. Yes, societal power he gets from that absolutely. And so how long were you in New York modeling? Did you finish school?

I finished school, so you were four years there because you're on the sophomore so you were there for a while, continuing to book gigs and build up build as a model. I now you're working as a model and making money as a model. Kind of what you aren't told about this industry is that a lot of it's working for free, and you're supposed to be grateful for it. So I was a lifeguard at university as well. I was a cater waiter while I was in school as well, because

I needed to be making money to support myself. And then got to l a through the means of meeting a model on Facebook who had found me and was like crushing it from what it looked like on their Facebook. And he was like, Yeah, I have this manager who's amazing that's really helped me. You should meet him. Maybe he'll like you, maybe he'll want to help you out.

And at this point I was a junior in college and had kind of learned that the industry was going to be like this, and it's a lot of you, as you mentioned, grooming right like you, one thing happens and you go, Okay, well that's normal. So like another thing happens that's also normal. And then I got to finished school, tol decided I wasn't going to go and do law school because that was the plan. I was like,

I just need to do me. I realized my parents didn't even know what my major was by the time I graduated, and I was senior class president, like high honors, all these things to impress them, and they didn't even know what I was going to school for. And I was like, I'm going to go to law school to impress them, like what they don't even care what I'm doing. And so ended up having an opportunity to move to l A because of the manager that I had met

through that model on Facebook. Got out there six weeks after graduation. Was standing at l A X very movie scene like waiting for this person I had never met in real life, had never seen in real life, just had spoken to on the phone, had made a lot of promises and put ideas into my brain about l A being great for me. I was on hold for

all these jobs, but they never came through. It was always like to the very end, like one job that I look back on that I'm like it was not even of course it wasn't real, Barrett, but like twenty year old Barrett was like, this could be amazing. It was a Motorola phone campaign shooting in South Africa, Like you put these red flags down because I want this. I've already been through so much. I'm going to push

and make this happen. I can do this. And then getting to l A, waiting at the airport for him, he shows up in a car that is old and I'm not by any means materialistic. Again, I grew up quite poor. But when you expect someone who's making good money and going to make you good money, and they make money off of your career, you expect them to

have some sort of, you know, nice ish things. Picked me up in a Gold's Malibu that was two doors and only the driver door opened, so I had to climb in through the driver's door to get into the past your seat. And then he drove us to his home that he had offered to let me stay with him while I figured out my l A life, because I didn't know anyone in l A, but I was told it would be good for me from this person who I was connected to from this model. We get

to his apartment. It is a studio apartment, and there was another model in there sitting and playing video games, and I was like okay, like again not just me and him, but like feeling all my spidy senses going off again. And then for the next I want to say, about a month was just gas lit over and over. Anytime I would ask a question about something, I wasn't

allowed to sleep on the futon. I had to sleep in the bed next to him because the futon was so hard to open and pull out, And then realizing that he had stole money from me, and being like I need to get out of here, and then getting out of that. So you get to l A and you're told by someone you trusted, here's a manager. Manager. Clearly, this is not the the dots are not connecting. Did you ever ask the friend and say to him, what

is this? What is happening here? Because again that much like the agent early on, was what legitimized the initial predatory photographer, this friend legitimized, which again clearly another predatory situation. Yeah, so that specific model was not anyone I ever met

in real life. We had met their face Facebook, and I had been given just like enough validation from other people about this manager, because these people are great and making themselves look larger than life and having more connections than they do, or making connections that you could probably make on your own, but not knowing that because you're

so fresh and new. And after figuring out that this person stole money from me that I didn't have, I was on set of a photo shoot with a photographer who was complaining about money and I was like, well, you're getting paid to do this right now, because I paid to do this, and he's like, I'm not getting paid and I was like, that's it, Like all the red flags have gone off. Officially, I'm done. You're taking me back to this person's apartment. I'm getting my stuff,

and you're taking me somewhere else. And I didn't really know anyone, so I went to another person's home that I kind of knew that was kind of Savor. And then after staying in l A for two months instead of one, because things actual we went well. I got back to New York with sitting in my room on my phone looking at the model who had originally introduced me to him, and finally, like a wave of duh, Barrett realized that that had been the manager cat fishing me. Okay, okay,

it was him the whole time. I found me see I see okay, got it and figured out a way to get to me and use me. And again this was not his first time. I later found out he had done this for years, so it was very coercive. This again, once again a very coercive situation, which is really the sense of not having options, being financially controlled, being controlled to a place to live, and all of that. So you stand up and you say I'm not doing this, you move in with a friend. Did you continue to

stay in the modeling industry at that point? Yeah? I stayed in it for like I was nine team when I started, and I was about twenty nine when I finally left. So over the course of that ten years, then, were there trusted people you ever encountered? It sounds like I'm hearing that the overtone of this industry was very predatory. I met people through out the industry who I don't know if I would say we're like trustworthy. I met

some people. There's one person in particular who I met actually through this manager who I'm still friends with today, and I think it's a good person. Majority of my experiences, and by majority I mean possibly more, we're not good. They were predatory. They were people who were attracted to me and trying to get in my pants. And then the hardest part was then feeling comfortable to start speaking out in while I was still in it and just

alluding to things. And I want to say this that I only went back each time to that first person because I thought I could finally hold my own, and each time I shot with him, it wasn't a good experience. It was assault in some way. The last time, the fourth and final time, was the final time that actually did something with him where I was paid. I held my own and I got out of there, and I said, it will never go back to that, because I finally did. I needed to for myself that I shouldn't have had

to go back there ever. But I didn't have anyone guiding me. Right, That's one thing I'm hearing too. Modeling such a troubling industry to me, because the commodity is another human being, and in a very superficial way, right, one could argue that people are commodities and all kinds of industries. That's see what human resources is about, right, but it is about something deeper in them, their intellect,

even sometimes their physical ability. But in this case, it's really merely how someone looks, and a young person looks right. With very rare exceptions, every so often you have a person who's, you know, of an more advanced stage, who might be a model, But by and large these are people in their teens into their twenties, and that that's

pretty much the end of the line. And so there is a commodification of the literally the physical presence, the skin, the hair, the eyes, the bones that we don't see in any other industry. Even an actor or an actress, a performer gets up there and is singing a song or saying words. So without a person who really truly has your back, who's interested in you as you and not you as this sort of skin and bones commodity, I don't see how anybody could be safe in this industry,

regardless of gender. And no one is. And that's the thing that I continue to talk about. I mean, we've even't seen celebrities, children's go into the industry and then talk about bad experiences they've had because you think that the money is going to protect them, but it doesn't. Also, as a man, we are toxically trained to stand up for yourself, defend yourself, you know, bite your lip and just get through things, don't talk about your feelings, and

the industry praised on that as well. I've talked about why I think it was harder as a queer model to be in the industry, because when a queer man, a queer photographer, let's say, makes advances on a straight guy and he goes no, not into it, he at least has the defensive I'm straight. A queer man telling a queer photographer I'm not interested is a direct I'm not interested in you. Yeah, yeah, you're right, Yeah, I get that. Verret I get that would be like a

woman saying that to a straight male photographer. Is a person looking out into this industry has never had any meaningful contact with the industry. I see the pictures and but that's it. That's the extent of my my knowledge of it. But the portrayal to us, especially in the era of social media, is incredibly glamorous. It is a job. Someone would want you travel the world, you wear beautiful things.

People covet the image you're putting out there, because I remember, we're seeing a person in the chanel and the goucy. I guess we're making an attribution. They must have the money to wear all these things, so that these are people who are making lots of money and living in penthouses and driving fancy cars. You're saying that's not the case. I'm sure there's maybe a couple of people who are

doing that, but that's not normative number one. Yet, it is still an incredibly sought out job, and it's one where the window of opportunity is minuscule. And so what I'm hearing from you for a relatively significant majority of individuals, if they want to persist and keep going forward in this, unless they have someone who is literally invested in their protection, maybe a very involved family member or someone else who. But even then, but even then, the vibe still feels predatory.

So even if somebody's not being physically assaulted, there is something there about that commodification that to me, it's just all it's all the hallmarks of a toxic relationship. It really is, And and I would say that that that's that to me as a psychologist, is troubling just even the foundational elements of what this industry is that has very few protections built in. There's no protections. Models are considered freelance, independent contractors, so you're not protected by your

management and agents. Listen. I'm sure if a legitimate person from a legitimate large modeling agency was sitting here, they would probably say, no, we beg to differ. We take very good care of the people. I mean, unless you're you're unless you're shadowing them twenty four seven. I don't see how you could protect them because I think by definition,

the industry is actually going to attract predatory individuals. Right, So predatory individuals are show up in every industry, but I think that you're going to get sort of a critical mass here. You also said something else very interesting, which is this whole idea of a person who has very little power then being concerned about being labeled difficult. In essence, setting a boundary would automatically make somebody difficult.

In this space like this, where the stakes are seemingly high, there's so many other people that would step into the role. And I think that's also complicated too. When there's a thousand other people who are also beautiful, who are willing to step in and get that picture taken. They're saying, we're not boundaries. I don't think so next, and so that creates silence when you label someone is difficult for

actually doing something appropriate. Again, another form of gas lighting where which effectively ultimately silence is someone and leaves them wondering maybe I am being difficult. My session with Barrett will continue after this break. So you came out while you were in the modeling industry, which I cannot I cannot think of a worse way to possibly have a person come out when you're trying to come into your real self into an industry that wants you to be anything.

But how did that play out? Ultimately at the end of your modeling career. It sounds like you were very you were out. People knew that you were a model in the industry and you're also gay. But how did that process Other than being made to take these ridiculous swag classes, how else did this playoff? Coming out in that space? Yeah, I mean when I, you know, started to become more comfortable in my own unique sexuality. And at this point I use queer because I think it's

so broad and beautiful. But I was told by all these older gay men that if you really want to make it in his career, you can't have a boyfriend, you can't go to gay bars, you can't work at the gay bar that you I was working at gay bar to make extra money at this point, just all these things, and as you said, it was stripping me of my authenticity. And I had this moment that was very clear. I said, I'm always going to be acting. I'm never gonna get to be myself, and that feels awful.

I've been so insecure about all these things my whole life, and you're just perpetuating it. And I don't think I'm going to be able to pass for straight as much as you all tell me I can, even if I was to try as hard as I could and be okay with myself mentally. And so at the end of my l A life, I had a very serious conversation with myself and knew I had to leave l A if I was going to make any kind of change, and so I quit everything. I call this my quarter

life crisis. I for the first time shaved my hair, which was a rebellious act because my hair was such a part of my career the entire time. I broke up with my long distance, long term boyfriend, who had also just been part of the confusing stuff because he was also older. I broke up and ended my side career as a server in West Hollywood, and then I ended my my modeling and acting career and went back to New York and was really sad and didn't know what I was going to do for a while, but

it was like home. It's where I went to universities where I was from. I went back to the city and stayed with friends and bounced around and couch served for probably years really, even in l A. And then had this moment in the winter where I had literally just felt like I was at my lowest, and I said, I don't ever want to be able to go backwards.

And so I wrote this coming out letter. I was around twenty four at this point, and put it on Facebook and took like a big breath as I hit published, and it was really beautiful messages from again the people I knew who were my friends because it was Facebook. And then it became the first thing that I ever published on having him post as a contributing writer, and

that kind of went off into another sphere. And I had been told my whole career up until this point that coming out was going to ruin my career and end me. I was not gonna have any opportunities, and it kind of gave me a different sense of notoriety. All of a sudden, I was out model Barrett Paul, and I was being featured in all these different publications as this game model. And it was awesome because a lot of people with public, you know, recognition, weren't out.

And it was in a lot of ways like wonderful and healing, but also a really big responsibility that was put on someone's shoulders that was not ready for it. And no one was guiding me again in this new space. And then the queer community was welcoming and then not welcoming at a point. And it's been a very interesting journey, interesting, complicated, painful. More than anything, I hear the pain of it. We

will be right with this conversation with Barrett. We've been talking about you in the modeling industry and you you had a very treacherous journey, So it doesn't sound like a unique one. I'd imagine you've talked with peers, men, women, trans, every non binary, everyone you've talked about enough people have had similar experiences. And my correct yes, and part of my reason for speaking out as loud as I am now as I've lost friends. The industry has made people

take their own lives. And I don't doubt that for a second. Like I have friends who have gotten so deep into drugs and drinking and sexual experiences that they did not consent to but thought it was okay because it was a part of their job. It's a very, very, very toxic industry and as you said, it praised on the young, and many of us come from broken families

that don't have money and are very vulnerable. So I think what's surprised rising Brett is though we've seen this in bits and pieces, someone I've gotten to know who's in this industry, he's given me the rundown on him many top notes similar to yours. And I always find it laughable that the sixteen year old strutting down the catwalk is supposed to be modeling what a fifty year

old woman is supposed to wear to work. I'm like, yeah, no, and so that to me is already even where the fashion industry and the modeling industry come to a confluence, which is, I see how problematic it is. So we can say this until we're blue in the face. And this is a world where many people want to be a model, and social media has pushed that over a threshold. I've been told about this concept of the Instagram model.

So these are people who, at one level, I think, kind of taking control of their own destiny because they're putting up their own images and spending time styling them and putting them out there. And I guess with the hope that if they get enough traction and enough of an audience that they would make money through sponsorship or

things like that. But I could imagine again, only a small percentage does that where and other people may be spinning their wheels, which frankly, I sometimes get concerned that at a young age, or pulling themselves out of other opportunity streams, whatever those look like. It might be higher education, it might be careers, whatever. But the fact is I can say all this, and ultimately many many people want

to do this. Okay, So even what you say today, what you say in all of your content, they're listening to you, they're like, oh, that's interesting, and they're still going to do this. You have some viral videos out there which I watched and listen to, and one of them you said there's five things you should never do

when being a model. So you, in some ways bear are becoming that voice in that protection you wish you had had when you're in this industry, which, by the way, would actually be a really nice role for you to be that safety mentor for some folks. But I'm sure that may not be something you want to take on. But I think you're doing this through your content right is you're saying that there's five things that you should

never do when being a model. Five things I will never do again after being a professional model for ten years. One work for exposure. You don't need more exposure. You need money to pay your rent. The people claiming that you're going to get exposure also can't guarantee that exposure, so just remember that too. Go to a photographer's apartment because that's their studio. It's not safe. You should not

be doing this. On my first photo shoot as a model, I was essayed at the photographer's studio, which was his apartment. Three do not sign any contracts or anything for that matter, without a lawyer or someone you really trust looking over it. At nineteen, I had no business signing model releases, contracts, all these things that were just put in front of me, and people like, oh, it's standard, it's standard. Do not sign anything for manipulate my body to fit into close

The clothes can be manipulated to fit on you. Your body is a temple and five an industry. Tell me what I look like because the entire industry is meant to prey on your insecurities, and it's run by a bunch of insecure people. Some of them are structural, some of them are sort of more kind of global. Do you want to reflect on that? It's more of what are you hoping to do through creating this awareness? Because I actually think that any you, like I said, anyone

come around a psychologist or an expert. No, don't do this, and people will please girl, But when you're doing it, you've you were there. What's your hope in doing all of this? My hope is to help others not go through what I've been through. I wish that I had had to bear it at every point in my life. It's why I'm now a professional life coach. It's now why I speak actively against the modeling industry. It's I just wish I had had someone like me, at least

giving me insight to go. You can get into this, but here are some things to look out for. Trust your instincts. You can say no to things. This is not the end all be all. This is not always your big moment, in your big break point. Oh one

percent or something like that. Of models will actually be making the kind of money that we think models are making, and most of them are celebrities, children who are already wealthy, so they don't have to worry about paying their rent, and they don't have to worry about what it's like to run around or if they have to fly themselves to another state or country first shoot, because models a lot of the time have to cover their own travel expenses.

A big problem in this industry is debt bondage. And like I had a job, My first international job was in my orc of Spain, and I remember getting booked for this and being so excited and getting there and doing the job and it was amazing, and then fighting for years to get paid for this five thousand dollar euro job and getting four U S dollars after all the things my agency took away from me, my travel, the model's apartment, the amount of expenses that go into

being on the website. So let me ask you this, as somebody who's pointing out these exploitative practices in this industry, do you get pushed back from the modeling industry? I get a ton of pushback. And I knew that when I was going to say everything that I said, I had to end my career because I wasn't going to be able to work anymore. And it was it's either

this or that, there's no more doing both. And I'm really grateful in many ways for social media because it gave me the power to take my career into my own hands. I didn't have to go through agents and managers to get my photos out there. I could put them out there myself. That's not to say that social media is a great industry and that it's not full

of its own predators and awful industry practices. I actually think that influencers are today's version of what models used to be, where it's like, not great contracts, it's not really looking up for you in your protection it's a lot of working for free in the hopes that it's going to lead to something else, and we do. We sell this idea of like, look how amazing my life is. And that's what I'm really grateful happened in terms of like a big Okay, it's time to make changes with myself.

I realized all these things that I was putting out, we're pushing people to want to do this, and if I didn't speak out, I was gonna be a part of the problem. I was sending people to the first photographer because I have those pictures on my Instagram. You know what, Barrett, I thank you for framing it that way. That's such an interesting insight. Just when you said I was like, of course, that was the click moment. Just

by having that affiliation out there, you legitimized him. It was never your intention, but if somebody dug deep and they saw the photo credit, that is a legitimization. And and again it becomes a numbers game. He was older, right, so at at fifty, he'd probably been doing it since he was twenty. That's thirty years of stuff he has out there that's affiliated with him, and he can't be

the only one. But like I said, I can't imagine that this industry, like any predatory industry, does not want somebody coming in and sort of blow the top off of this. And you're saying things that we would suspect, but you're really sort of putting a brighter light on it. But that was such an interesting point, Barrett, that as long as I had those pictures put out there and those I'm endorsing this in many ways. And I think

we It's funny. I often talk about how so many of us and and and I do I do it too. We're all guilty of it, all of us in this room, everyone's building of being unwitting enablers, right, So you know the challenges, and I work run into this with clients

to give it to you. It a smaller example, people will say, there is too horribly abuse of people in my family system, and I show up to that family holiday dinner, and in a way, my presence at that table making small talk is sort of signing off on their behavior and people can feel a lot of shame.

And something that's come up in this podcast more than a few times with diverse stories is this idea of moral injury that have I in the course of trying to stay alive and do my job, that I've directly harmed people or even indirectly, but I've harmed people as just say that. That is a shame unlike any other. And it's so unfortunate because they're not doing a bad thing,

They're merely showing up. And so it seems like the people who aren't as toxic actually have to make some even bigger, painful decisions and basically culls from their life so they don't feel like they are, in essence emboldening the toxic actors in their life. Absolutely. I mean I had to really sit with the fact that I was about to blow my own life up, my source of income, all these things that had given me the life that I have now that I'm really grateful for, and that

was all going to go away. I wasn't continuing to advance myself in other ways. And that's why I tell everyone, if you want to be a model, maybe think about having other avenues of income or leaning into your minds that you're not just this. You know, the French call it many kin, that's the word for model, and I think it's so insightful to how you are just a thing at the end of the day in this industry, and you're not meant to have a voice or an opinion.

And it's changing a bit with trend, and I really just say it's a trend that the industry has like taken on, you know, activists and people who do have an opinion in voice, because social media kind of needs you to be more than just a still image. But the hard thing and I don't know if this will make complete sense, but when I really looked at it from all angles, I was being groomed into this industry and then I'm used to groom the public, and so

it's this really messed up cycle. And that's why for me, it's not just about modeling, it's about society as a whole, because I'm being put into these positions where I feel so insecure and so bad about myself. Yet I'm what you're supposed to emulate and work your butt off to look like, which is coming from sports that I did growing up, which is coming from genetics, which is coming

for other people through surgery. And then you're left to feel bad at home because you don't have all these things that I apparently have, which I don't really have either. You know, I had to. I had to really do some serious healing through therapy. I did an eight hundred mile hike on the PCT. I traveled the world for four years, going to every continent doing humanitarian work. I think there was a time when we looked at a picture in a magazine we didn't really identify with that.

You're right, it was just sort of an inert like beautiful person sitting next to a car holding a bottle of perfume or whatever the heck they were showing us. Social media changed the game and made it feel accessible, But ultimately it is really we're worshiping on the shrine of people who had a little bit of genetic good luck.

The spacing of their eyes, the shape of their body, that their height, those are none of that was things that they did and then often do terrible things to themselves to keep their weight down at a level that especially for women that look at certain I would argue man as well, anyone who's putting themselves out there, and we look at these people who had sort of won a certain genetic roll of the dice, but we never

get to know them as people. I I can tell you that makes me incredibly uncomfortable when I don't know the three D like, I'm always the person who's going to look at the the you know, the cutout and behind here, because that's sort of that's my job is looking under the hood, not just as a psychologist, but I think for all of us as a human being is to look beyond that. But we're not even allowed to. I think in many ways that modeling industry is invested

in us not knowing who these people really are. And while I think that sometimes people will come out and say, you know, you have people who are very prominent in the industry, they're often people who have succeeded or protected by celebrity or family legacy. But for the rest of the people, we're not hearing about any of this. I'd love to ask you. Somebody comes up to you, I want to be a model, Barrett, what would you say to someone who is sixteen, seventeen, eighteen nineteen and says

I want to pursue a modeling career. My first question with anything, and especially this is why, Okay, that's good. Why do you want to be a model? What about it is exciting to you? What do you think you're going to get from it. Why, Because what we aren't really looking at is the truth of the industry. It's not super lucrative. It's not easy. I think that's another big problem is I even thought this would be an

easy way to make money. It's not easy. You are spending so much of your own time, energy, mental space, money running around from casting to casting, the relationships that you have to maintain with people that you probably don't really want to maintain relationships with. Everyone wants to use you,

no one really cares about you. And so, you know, my thing is, are you looking to do this for the reasons that I probably was looking to do this as a kid, which was to find a sense of making solid money at an age that you really can't make a lot of money any other way except an entertainment. Now it's changed a lot of guests, But at nineteen, there wasn't a lot of opportunities for me to make as much money as I was told I could make.

I was highly insecure, and I thought that coming out of high school being awkward and bullied and made fun of on a daily basis, if I could have this industry, that was the peak of a sex symbol or attractiveness that that would validate me finally for all the people who were awful to me, but really to myself, because I still didn't have that confidence to know that I

was worthy of everything I want. And we put so much emphasis on the exterior as a culture because it's a way for capitalism to continue to thrive because it has to fade at some point. So is this because you're not willing to invest on the hard things which are hard quote unquote, you know, the mind and the soul and the emotions and the spirit and all that deeper stuff that takes a lot of work to do.

You know, statistically speaking, less people will make it as a professional well paid model than they will as a professional athlete. Wow, and you work just as hard to maintain your body because that is your source of income. Yeah, that's interesting. That's a that's a really interesting statistics because we think of that professional athletics and beings. You know that no one makes it in that space, But you're absolutely right when you think of all the athletes out

there playing college sports all of that. We did some additional research here and what we found is that in modeling, sometimes you do a shoot for free, often trade offs with a photographer to boost your portfolio. Models also get paid in products that's just clothing. When working with smaller companies, the range of pay for models can be as low as thirty dollars an hour up to three hundred an hour, with most models being paid about thirty to a hundred

dollars per hour for unpredictable and often infrequent gigs. Also, when you sign with an agency, when the agency gets you the job, agencies take out around ten so that's not an insignificant portion of these often low and inconsistent rates. Even when a model scores big and gets a big and lucrative job, this can often be a sort of unicorn and may not appear again for years, requiring tremendous discipline around budgeting and the anxiety that comes from that.

And of course, on top of all of this, you have to pay taxes. Being paid inconsistently makes it difficult to do things like budget and pay rent, and the misleading nature of what a job pays on what you get to keep, especially for people who may not fully understand how this works, can put people into some really financially precarious positions and often quite vulnerable ones. It's a constant hustle, which is why so many models, as Barrett mentioned,

have second jobs just to have enough to live on. Now, I want to pivot into one last space because you have spoken out. You have spoken out about a lot of stuff, and for purposes of what we talk about here, that has resulted in a lot of online bullying. People have not I mean, I don't think anybody who has an online presence doesn't endure it, I have to say, but you have endured a lot of it. What's happening in internet spaces? I didn't used to think people were bad.

When I look at comments, I'm like, I'm beginning to think people with capital P are just not nice. What has been your experience, because I think you've really taken so much of it. What do you think that's about?

And how do you manage that? I remember the first mean comment that I got, which was on my first polaroid, which is what we used to take to kind of mark your entry into modeling, that you would put up on a website quickly or blitz out to all the clients that you had at the agency to be like, we have this new face I got on there and I was like so excited, and underneath were like four comments and one was from someone who was like g Q something, and I thought it was actually g Q

in my little young brain and they're like, was probably cute in high school? Has baby fat, won't make it very far, and I was like, this is what g Q thinks of me. But that was the beginning of my online bullying. As you go through my career, it was pretty welcoming, especially when I came out and social media was really starting to grow. I definitely had a

lot of gay men following me. That was the entry point for me into like public space in some way I called a gay miss and I went from being again people will troll me for this, but the gay darling of the modeling industry for about three years and the hardest hardest part about this specifically, I had three friends go and shoot with that photographer and I was gaslight by our larger group of friends that I was a problem for saying that that was a problem publicly,

And to this day I am still vilified in certain circles and social spaces because I did not just sit and be quiet, and so it's cost me real life situations where I don't feel like I'm very safe in a lot of spaces, and then you amplify it on social media, where I now reach over two million people on a daily basis and it's just NonStop every day, and it's from straight men, from queer men, from some women, but it's mostly men. How do you cope with that? Barrott?

You don't until you realize that it's affecting you because you have this breakdown. And I had one of those, and my best friends and my boyfriend at the time were like, you need to stop, Like you need to to get away from all of this for a little bit. Because social media is something everyone has and so you see everyone using it, but it's a career for you, so it's very different the way in which you have to interact with it, because if you don't post for

a few days, it affects your account. I mean, there's psychological warfare with these tech companies. And I finally had this moment where I was like, Okay, I need to really reassess how much time I'm giving to these things, what it's doing to me, and create boundaries that I had not had because no one had shown me how to have them because I was a part of the guinea pig with social media, with this new wave of things that we have. I mean, technology was part of

what I studied in school. I went to school for communication, culture, media, but none of this existed when I was in college. You know, it didn't. I have to say, you know that the the advice is to ever read the comments is sort of what's going to be on my tombstone because I'm not I'm not made for this. The vilification and what I experienced is a tenth of a percent compared to what you would endure. And I find it as somebody who's even older and you know, different life story,

different life path harms my mental health. So I I'm always struck by how people can be resilient in the face of it, and I think at some level you really can't. At some point you have to shut it down. But you're very engaged with your audiences, which is sort of where I want to sort of end this up, is you've really had quite a journey and would love to hear what you're doing now because all of this did not break you. In fact, it allowed you to finally bring your voice out into the world as your

voice and you are focused on goodness and kindness. And you know, listen, I'm a big believer that just because somebody wants to be a public person, that doesn't make them an open target, which actually is the mentality of the world. If you're a public person, then this is what you signed up for. I said, what people So people want to do something, say something publicly, and that gives the population the right to use them as the public square that you hurled the to it is that

I don't I really don't agree with that. And what I do think is it's created an antagonism in society at large, which is actually hurting everybody's health at this point, not just individuals were enduring the vilification. Everyone is health. Health is going down the drain at this point. So, but on a brighter note, you know, we want to support to you, So tell us what you're doing now and how you're you sort of come out of this

and what your sort of mission is. Yeah, So through all of this and really reassessing where I can make change and finding my voice and being confident in that. For the last eight years, I've been a professional life coach that specializes in behavioral change to help people find peace of mind, because that's the goal I think for the world is what we need to find. I truly want everyone to be on the same team. I don't believe in winners and losers. I think we're all losing

right now. The idea that there's winners and losers comes from a very patriarchal, competitive society that does not see everyone thriving, and even the people at the top, I believe are very hurt and unhappy, regardless of how much money they may flash around. I have been become a partner with the u N and I'm really grateful for that.

I do humanitarian work. I am a part of a group called the Models Alliance, and then my big goal is to kind of do what Glorious Steynham famously said and when a para paraphrase er here, but it's the final stage of healing is taking what's happened to you and helping others heal. I want to leave this planet better than how I came into it. I want to make people realize that maybe if they didn't like me because of something here or there, that I'm on their team.

We do better working together. And I think that as you and I were talking earlier today. Is you know, empathy is what's lacking more than anything. It's so easy to feel like you are being specifically personally attacked when someone on social media says something that maybe does resonate to somewhere where you need to make change. But I want to encourage people to make change. It's a good thing to grow and evolve, and no one should say

stagnant from where they are today. I mean, we live very long lives now, and if we can all kind of unite a little bit more, I think we can all have equity to equality and see everyone thrived because there's enough resources in terms of everything from food to water to land for everyone to be fundamentally okay at the end of the day. As long as we split it up, the right wakes. Right now, a very small number of people hold most of the world's resources. So

how can people support your work? You can find me and support my work on all social media platforms. That's YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. I've deleted Twitter. That's a whole other conversation, um, but it's at my name. Barrett, Paul B A R R E T T. Paul P A. L. L that's it nice and easy, and I look forward to having you join us in what I call lovingly the Love Army. It's a community of people that just want to come

together and make the world better. Yeah. Again, I completely agree with the glorious Steinham quote, and I always tell all survivors that at some point you will pay this forward. Do you? First you know if your whole, if you've subjugated yourself to what others needed, and then once you do that, you know to pay it forward. Can actually, in essence give meaning to the to the pain and the struggle and the wounds, and which I think is

absolutely essential. Very few people live a life without suffering. The question is what we do with that suffering. And you have had a fascinating and painful though above all else, you've had a painful journey through an industry that I will tell you after our conversation today, you've illuminated in ways. I mean, I never viewed beneficently on the modeling industry,

but interestingly my problem with it was more superficial. What you've described is an industry that can be predatory and take advantage of people who are often quite vulnerable, and that's a real problem. I mean, it's one thing that yeah, I can, I can have my own philosophies that I think we really have to. I want all people to

be able to go deep into themselves. This is a whole different game, and that I think that it's a cautionary tale and a reminder that entire industries can be antagonistic and invalidating and cruel, and we don't always get the whole story because what as we see, with all of these toxic relationships, we believe what we want to believe to maintain the fantasies we right in our mind. So thank you for dispelling some of those fantasies and

putting the hope in a different place. I really appreciate you, Barrett. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me and for giving me more insight into my own journey. It's been really important for me. But I hope everyone who hears this, so thank you. Yeah, thank you. These

are my takeaways from my conversation with Barrett. In my first takeaway, any time we have to occupy a toxic space in our lives, whether it is a relationship, social group, or workplace, we pawn off a piece of our authenticity. These relationships mean pushing down our intuition, silencing ourselves, or being in constant arguments and making ourselves smaller to survive. Most of us cannot depart every toxic relationship in our lives,

particularly if it is a workplace. Finding spaces outside of these unhealthy ones, whether it is friendships, activities that bring meaning and purpose, other healthy relationships are essential to not losing ourselves entirely in this next takeaway, industries which are perceived to have high status and it is restrictive and competitive to enter the industry, and are also perceived to pay well, whether or not that's true, are sadly a

set up for abuse, exploitation, and manipulation. Modeling is a unique industry because the people who are entering the industry are often very young and often may not feel that they have a voice or know that there are many others who could take their place if they push back. Workplace reforms can often be essential in these industries, whether that is organizing workers, ensuring transparency and compensation, clearer guidelines and consequences. However, as long as an industry is perceived

as desirable and fantastical, like modeling or entertainment. Even with these guidelines, these will often be fraught and toxic workspaces. In our next takeaway, protecting people within toxic industries is essential. That may be through mentorship, watchdog systems, or oversight. At a minimum, there is a need for people to be aware of the potential for harm that industries with major power differentials, small windows of opportunity to launch, and fears

of reprisal if someone pushes back. There is a risk when a person is as commodified as a model, for example, of also perceiving them as a disposable, a dynamic that actually characterizes narcissistic relationships as well. Sometimes it takes just one person with a voice who is observing a toxic

dynamic to protect someone in any toxic system. And in my last takeaway, someday in the mental health and psychology history books, we will see the last decade or so as the era when the trauma called online bullying became a thing and something that undercut not only mental health,

but civil discourse of any kind. There is research that suggests that the harm induced by the unrelenting nature of online bullying, the seven nature of it, that it can be anonymous, that it can be shared widely that this

form of bullying may be worse than other forms. Barrett is not the only guest who has talked about this, and as often happens when we are talking about toxic behavior or people, we tend to blame the person experiencing the abuse, things like maybe you shouldn't be a public person. You were asking for it if you posted things for people to see. Rather than calling out the antagonistic people who are emboldened by cowardly anonymity, we won't stop this.

Online spaces gave a more covert group of people with antagonistic personalities a modern public square in which they can behave badly. Some people develop a tough skin and believe in the message they are sharing, while others are quite harmed by this. Only you would know how this would affect you. Oftentimes this may mean trimming your feed and followers, disabling comments, not reading the comments, and giving yourself a break from the toxic town square that the Internet has become.

A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valen Jethrow, Ellen Rakaton, and Dr Romeney de Vassela. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Maria Della Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnahe and Calvin Bailiff.