How Rebecca Humphries Found Her Voice

The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I Heart Media, or their employees. I walked out that night that those pictures are in the newspapers. I didn't have a boyfriend, I didn't have a home, I didn't have

a job, I didn't have any income anymore. But what I did have was, it turns out, more self respect than I would ever have given myself credit and a voice, and my wife all of a sudden, It's amazing to me how often survivors say I had an intuition that something wasn't right, and between my partners gaslighting other people telling me that maybe I'm overthinking it, and me telling myself I am too sensitive, I pushed it away and

I ignored it. Now, imagine that you have this intuition, you have this feeling in your gut that was gaslighted by your partner many times, and you find out not only that you were right all along, also that it gets confirmed by a picture of your partner cheating on you on the front cover of every newspaper in the country. Welcome to the story of Rebecca Humphries. Rebecca is a writer and actress from the UK and has been on shows including The Crown and Ten. Her best selling memoir

Why Did You Stay? A memoir about self worth maybe one of the very best I have read on gaslighting, infidelity,

and the slow burn and confusion of emotional abuse. Her Twitter post on emotional abuse in gaslighting might be one of my most favorite Twitter posts of all time and ended up putting her in a role she never expected advocate, and since then, Rebecca has become a thoughtful and empathic voice on emotional abuse, gas lighting and their impact on self worth and well being, as well as the importance

of recognizing these patterns in crafting policy. While Rebecca's public story was easy tabloid fodder, her deeper exploration of how a person finds themselves in the complicated dance of a relationship that twists between gas lighting and invalidation and comfort and charisma pro vibes a framework for understanding why so many people get into emotionally abusive relationships and find themselves

stuck in them. Let's hear Rebecca's story beyond just what was in the tabloids we have, Rebecca Humphries, you are the standard bearer of one of the ultimate relationships stories. And what's so interesting is though, although your story played out on such a public stage, what you shared was the experience of so many survivors who often feel as though they're under the radar because it doesn't register as what we sort of traditionally consider sort of the physical

injuries and wounds of domestic abuse. A lot of people don't even want to call it abuse. I want to call it a difficult relationship. So what you've done is you've given voice as people are trying to do more and more now. But you've done it in a voice that made me laugh and cry. And we'll talk about your book endlessly because everyone immediately read Why Did You Stay?

One of the best memoirs of this So some people have heard about your story, But can you take us from the top and before we even get into the tweets and dancing and all of that, can we get into your book and into your story, talk to us about your relationship. Okay, So in twenty I met a man on the set of a television show that he and I were both cast in, and I was with

someone else at the time. Very quickly it became clear that we had chemistry, and even quicker off the off the back of that hot on the heels of that, it sort of began this pursuit of me, which sounds like I was reluctant in that I absolutely wasn't. I

mean it was. It was presents and gifts and voyages to different countries all over Europe, and it really did feel like, for a brief moment of my life that the sun was shining on me and that romance was playing out and exactly the way that I had always been told that it would do my whole life, from countless movies and period dramas and everything that I've ever been promised was sort of handed to me by this person.

And then, really, when I think back on it, quite quickly, well extremely quickly, we we moved in together within three weeks. We had bought a house within three months, and quickly after that it started to become complicated in a way that really I had never I had never expected, sure, but I had never been warned about, or had never been encouraged to see those things as signs that this was an emotionally abusive relationship. I just thought it was

a relationship. I just thought it was one that had, you know, teething problems and required compromise and all of these really like unhelpful roller decks of soundbites that I've

been taught about relationships and what love looked like. And that relationship went on for five and a half years, and it was at the end of it when it's sort of exploded in a media bin fire, and at which points I sort of got this amazing wash of validation from the national press, and also because of the public nous of the breakup, lots of women contacting me privately, letting me know that essentially this person had been one person to me and the tire another person to all

of these other women who he had several affairs with, and dismissed my suspicions as me being crazy for years. So the publicness of it, which we're going to get to in a minute. While you were in the relationship, Rebecca, were you aware that this wasn't good, this wasn't healthy. Like you said, three weeks in was sort of intense, and the I love you. Three months in, we're buying a house. I mean, that's fast, which is already a big red flag. But beyond that, five and a half

years is a long time. Yeah, it's a really long time, Like it was even I was by the end of this relationship, I doubted myself to such an extent that it even feels strange to say five and a half years is a long time of my life, because when we got out of the relationship and I was stealing with the way that I felt I had been treated and the things that had happened, I was sort of asking people like, that's a long time, right, that's too long for this to be going on, you know, just

that kind of validation. Even now, it feels strangely, you know, sort of brilliant. It's a long time to suffer like that. It's interesting. Five and a half years and a happy relationship is an eye blink. Five and a half years. In an emotionally abusive relationship is like an epoch. It's an entirely different game. So while you were in it in those five and a half years, how are where were you becoming that this isn't right? Or how did

you manage what was happening in the relationship. Well, the fact is that I was relatively inexperienced when it came to relationships and what healthy relationships looked like. To be honest, I come from a background where actually there isn't that much emotional language and that we don't really have a

dialogue in that sense. So my first relationship was with somebody who also didn't do that and also didn't communicate in that way, and it became clear that we were quite young and that we were sort of going on different paths, and to me, that just felt really confusing. And so when I met this person who the person that we're talking about, who I was in this emotionally abusive relationship with, I really just saw all of the

things that my first boyfriend was missing. And because really I'm I'm also from a background that is dare I say it? And I don't mean to be derogatory when I say this, but it's patriarchal and love and marriage and children is a priority. And whether I liked it or not, I was conditioned from an early age to prioritize romantic love over everything else, including myself. So when I'm in a relationship with somebody, I'm going to try

and keep it going no matter the cost. And in the case of this relationship, that cost was my self esteem, my opinions, my voice. And so how did I work around that? Well, I just stopped voicing myself as much. I sort of allowed my opinions to be watered down to the extent that actually I sort of you can ask me what I wanted for dinner. I wouldn't been able to answer you. I would have texted my boyfriend

and asked what he wants? Is all of the things really that I now know I really do value about myself and that I really love and enjoy about who I am, they were the first things to be thrown out of the window in the name of love. Rebecca highlights three patterns here that have come out throughout this podcast and that she puts a finer point on. First, we again see this idea of how a narcissistic relationship can so often feel like a correction from a prior relationship,

especially when that prior relationship lacked something. In her case, it was communication. When someone comes up with just lots lots of talking and contact and all of that, especially if we came from a relationship when we didn't have that, we can make the erroneous assumption that the intensity and sort of the extra of it all is good and healthy.

Then she gets into something that we don't talk about enough, which is the tyranny of romantic love, and that love and marriage and baby carriages are the be all and all. Healthy relationships are a magnificent and essential part of a

healthy life. But the script and the idea that someone is coming up short if they aren't living in that script rushes too many people into toxic relationships, and they don't give themselves to be discerning when they choose a partner or stay in a relationship and say I am better than this. And then she makes a really important point.

She says that when I am in a relationship with someone, I am going to try and keep it going no matter the cost, and that right there is a perfect definition of what a trauma bonded relationship looks like I will give up on myself. I will disconnect from who I am and what I need to do to keep

this going. Rebecca is describing a one two three punch here that I do not think anyone could ever be immune to, and it is the perfect setup to get into and get stuck in a manipulative, toxic, and invalidating relationship. I want to even go further back, so prior to this unhealthy, emotional, abusive relationship, how many boyfriend like longer term not just dates, but like longer term relationships. Wasn't just the one just one? Yeah? Okay, yeah? And in

that one it wasn't like this. Firstly, it was a completely different time. We started going out in around TI thousand and nine. Now, at the same time as this, he had girlfriends that he told me that he'd broken up with. Now he hadn't. He was a cowardly dude, this guy, he hadn't. But of course, at that time it all came out about the pair of us, and the way that pop culture and society was working at that point was to cast the women in two very

clear roles. One is the one who was the girlfriend or the wife who was the innocent party, and the other is the sort of siren porter, the madonna really and so as such, this guy was let off the

hook by absolutely everyone that knew us, including myself. So as far as I was concerned, during this relationship, i'd sort of stolen him from his girlfriend, which you know, now I look back on and I think, hang on, this is this really has Scie has got a lot to answer for in that respect, because had I have been able to shine a light on his behavior in that way, who knows whether I would have found myself in a relationship with this other guy, because I probably

would have recognized a lot of the same behavior. But actually I took on a lot of that blame at the beginning of that relationship with this guy. I really did, and I did a lot of apologizing at the beginning of that relationship. That actually meant that when I met this new boyfriends, I sort of felt like everything about our beginning was very clean and felt almost almost pure, and and like love was supposed to be, which is just arriving and I stepped into something free from blame,

judgment and attack, which I hadn't previously. Does that make sense? It makes so much sense, and you just said a mouthful, let's a bit of that way, Because, first of all, you said back in two thousand nine women were either painted as a on a horror siren or the steady girlfriend. I think in two is exactly the same. I don't think we've made progress on that front whatsoever. Frankly so, I think we're still very much stuck in that. But what was interesting to me you said that in childhood

you were raised to believe romantic love took primacy. Marriage was the goal. Marriage family In the United States, we talked about the picket fans, the whole thing, Right, that was the goal. Right. Yeah, it's a little shop of horrorce dream sequence, but but you're absolutely right. It is the dream sequence of I'm going to have that domesticity, and that means everything else in my life can be put on hold as long as I'm working on this.

But what's fascinating is you say, in that first relationship, you had to take a role of the siren, as the bad one, as the person who came in as a bad actor, as it were, because you got into the relationship that he lied about being in with somebody else, and people perceived you as well. Of course she knew and she did this willingly, So you had a role

there and you took the role on. But what's fascinating, and this happens all the time, Rebecca, is when a person moves into a new relationship and the new story is different than the old story, and in this case it was that clean beginning. It almost becomes what we call a halo effect in psychology, which is this idea that now this is going to be a good relationship because that piece was moved out of the way. Once again, you're blowing my mind even just saying the halo effects.

I'm like, because so much of our relationship that we had over those five years, I just took it straight back to that angelic beginning. So what's interesting is that's all his His main virtue I'm hearing so far, is that he happened to be single when you met him. So you had this one relationship and then that ends. How long did that first relationship last. I'd say about two years too and a half years, okay, still not a short period of time. You wouldn't call it toxic, No,

I wouldn't have called it toxic relationships? No, Okay, okay, and you were young. Yeah, I was young. I was twenty three. How much time elapsed between the end of that first relationship and the beginning of the second relationship, I mean a day. So you you met the new guy almost right away. I met the new guy when we were both working on this TV show and I still had a boyfriend. But yes, me and the new guy,

we were friends. We finished the TV show that was his TV show actually, and he said that he wanted to take me and the lead writer out for dinner and drinks at this club in London. And when I turned up, the writer wasn't there. And we had some drinks and I said to this guy, he was never coming, was he? And he said no? And I said, can I need to tell me why? And he said, because

I'm madly in love with you. She shouted it in this club, you know, and yeah, and I sort of said, okay, leave it with me because as well, you know this guy. This is also part the tailor effect that you're talking about,

which is this guy that my first boyfriends. You know, there was a there were many, many months of a tussle and a back and forth about him not being able to leave his girlfriend and telling me that he had left her and then telling me that it wouldn't work and for whatever reason, and me never quite figuring out whether this was true, and the whole thing was a tussle, and then suddenly it felt honestly, after years as well, and not just with this first boyfriend, but

my teenage years are feeling like a secret from so many boys and men, and feeling like lots of men were ashamed to say that they were with me. And then suddenly I'm with this new guy and it's like the clouds part and the sunshines with me, and someone just turns around to me and goes, no, no, no, no no. I want you how you are, and I

want everyone to know about it. And suddenly it just felt, you know, after all of this secrecy and shame for years and years and years, this was, as I say, totally clean, and I was like, this is meant to happen. It felt like, yeah, it felt like some face thing. Really well, it's such an interesting sort of passing of the baton. You know, all of those prior relationships. You were choosing these men, and like you said, it was

almost like they wouldn't commit. You were felt you were kept in the shadows, you know, which is an interesting kind of a triangulated trauma bonded pattern where people will be what someone were and they may not even be that they're competing with another person, but they're competing with something, even if it's the desire to not be in a relationship for the for the for the man. Then when you transition to new guy to this I'm gonna call him number two for lack of a name, but you

know this, this new guy, he chooses you. But what's interesting, Rebecca, and what I'm hearing is that you were still in a somewhat disadvantaged position because you were still the bad one. You hurt number one. Yeah, that's right, I did. So you still were in this this position of Rebecca not as good And I find that interesting because that would probably make you more likely to endure more of Number two is bad behavior, because even though he chose you,

you still came in from that disadvantage spot. That is absolutely fascinating. Yeah, that's really really interesting. So now though you end the relationship with number one, number two and it goes fast, it goes first, and also you know, there's there's something else to add to this, which is that we went on this day, we went to Brighton on the south coast of England, and I'm about having a big conversation and I said to him, I don't know if I want to be in a relationship that

have been it. I think I just need time. And it was almost as though it was a red rag to a ball that moment. It was, well, I want you to be my girlfriend, and that's what I want. And of course, you know all the work that I've done ever since on myself and on thinking about myself, and what that moment was that I really have come to terms with the fact that I didn't take into

account my own needs at all in that scenario. I heard what he wanted and I sort of like, it chills me to the bone really that I was so prepared so instantly to fulfill his needs in that sense rather than ground myself in my own in any sense. It was as though, honestly I just turned my back on it within two seconds because I saw it as

my chance. I saw at this moment as my chance, which obviously has a lot to do with my own self esteem at that point in my life, but it also sounds like the message you've got is to be in a relationship meant that you you fully had to almost sacrifice all your needs to the other. That was love totally. The sequence Rebecca described meeting somewhere new, things moving fast, but then asking for a minute because she

wasn't sure she was ready for a relationship. She likened it to a red flag for a bull, which is an apt metaphor. Toxic and antagonistic folks love the game, the chase, and the win. Many people actually do set the boundary and communicate that they may need time or may not be ready, and all the other person heres is game on. I know that lots of people look back at these relationships and say, how could I have

missed it? And I remind them that you probably did try to set a boundary, but you just didn't know what you were up against. So as this relationship went on, and if anyone reads the book, and like I said, the book lays it out in such excruciating but unbelievably lyrical detail, can you give listeners a sort of a glimpse at what some of the more toxic patterns were in the relationship, and you know how that played out for you? Internally these things would happen, you were clear

that they were uncomfortable. Yet it was a cycle like as we often see in these relationships, of it falling apart, coming back together. What were the kinds of things that would happen and what was your process within the relationship? Patterns include did the obvious one is the breadcrumbing? So

is the really being distant physically and emotionally? For I would say seventy to nine of the time until there was just enough resistance from me that I would then be bombarded or swamped with love and with attention and affection just enough to stop me from walking out the door.

And there were several moments within our relationship where I really had had enough and said I can't do this anymore, I really can't, And at which point suddenly there would be this man who was everything that I had been missing for months and months and months right there willing to give me everything that it was I had said, enough is enough. I can't do without this in my life.

So that was one thing. Other things, you know, like suddenly there'll be sudden thoughtfulness, like sudden gifts of things that I had mentioned in passing that it suddenly felt as though he had them thoughtful enough to kind of log that away, and suddenly there would be this gift, and I would think, well, things are going to be better now, and then two days, three days later, suddenly

there we go, sinking back in. But I'm there remembering that gift, to remembering that thoughtfulness and almost feeding myself from it through that. And also, you know, I was a thrilled seeker in that relationship in that sense. I really was, because I've said in the book that this kind of a relationship is like someone pushing you from a fifteen story building and then catching you an inch

above the pavement. And then when they catch you an inch above the pavement, all you can say is thank you so much for catching me, because you're so relieved to not have hit the grounds that you forget that they're the person that kicks you off that building in

the first place. And it was it was like that in the initial stages, every few months, and then it became every few weeks, and then it became every a few days towards the end, by which point you're so accustomed to that cycle you don't even realize that you're in a cycle. You just think that this is how the relationship is. And also you know full well that no matter how bleak it gets, chances are it will probably take a couple of days for something good to

happen and you can laugh together again. And so you ride it out, You ride the wave of difficulty, because my favorite place to exist was the moment where the relationship was freshly salvaged, and that's where I got my life forced from every every single time. So I would

say that that was really the main one. And those instances that again I speak about anecdotally in the book, like you know, I'm crying in a pizza Express in a West London shopping center, in a Westfield, you know, feeling bleaker than I've ever felt in my life, and you know, there's waiter above me with big pepper grinds, and me crying my eyes like going, oh god, this is so human, easing and leaving and saying you know, enough enough, I can't do this anymore and I deserve

better than this. Suddenly this empowerment comes out with me. I'm leaving and I'm going and I'm going home. And then suddenly how it comes, which is that I need you and I don't know what I would do if

you left. And suddenly we get into the territory of responsibility and me taking responsibility for this person who's I know full well has had difficulty in their lives, because that gets brought up to and in moments where I have my own sense of power and my own sense of autonomy, difficulties that this person he has been through in his life and his childhood and things that I can't possibly imagine, And suddenly there I am saying, but he needs me, and without me, he's saying he doesn't

know what he do And I don't know what it is to have had a childhood, a teenage life, and adult life like him. So maybe if I had had that then I would understand it better, but I don't. But all I know now is that if I left, he'd have nothing, and I love him, so I don't wish that on him. There are so many things like that.

They just creep into your veins in relationships like this, and you're living with them in your body, not even realizing that this is anything other than a normal relationship, because because it is your normal, it becomes your normal. One thing you've laid out here is we talk about the architecture of a narcissistic relationship and ant toxic relationship,

and it's love bombing, devaluing, discarding, and hoovering. They suck you back in starts again, and the gift and then the devalue and then the discard, which can also be with withdrawing. It doesn't mean the end of relationship. It just means that they withdraw or they spend time with other people or other pursuits, and then they hoover you back. A lot of people think that that that's a one

time cycle and it's not. Yours was an example what was happening weekly, monthly, and I think that that's what I want. I want folks to hear that. People think it's at one time, and I'm like, no, no, no, this happens over and over and over. The cycle is not a one cycle. It's a constant cycle. But yours is.

It's a classic trauma bonded cycle. That idea of over time the cycle became more frequent and that analogy you give, which is just brilliant, of falling out of the building and being caught an inch from the pavement and then sort of getting really hooked into the ecstasy of the being caught of the what is the coming together going to look like? Again? That that becomes the hook that right there is the trauma bond. And I think that so many people say, Oh, I'm trauma bonded. What's wrong

with me? I'm like, what's wrong with you? You're basically holding out for this thing that feels like a reward that's actually human nature, but it's human nature caught up

in this really toxic cycle. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Just to add to that too, I think a lot of people think that when you hear things like toxic cycle, it's a mistake to think that a toxic relationship is toxic all the time, right because within that cycle, there were the most amazing glimpses and moments of real intimacy and romance and pleasure and all of these things that suddenly there, I am, you know, seeing the sea and brighten from that first weekend that we went away together, and it's

it's there and it's real. And that was peppered throughout those five and a half years, those beautiful, truly beautiful moments. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't a toxic relationship. It means that that's part of the cycle of it correct and it's in a way what happens is those memories almost become these etchings in those parts of your

brain where you're also trying to manage emotion. And that gets challenging because it's like having beautiful family pictures on the wall and thinking I'm in an unhappy family, but the pictures don't tell that that story, and so you're always looking up at this big gallery of photos. They just happened to be in your mind all the time.

Our session will continue after this break. One thing you brought up a lot in your book and when you've talked about the relationship is that you constantly felt gas lighted in the relationship. You know, so in addition to the bread crimbing, it sounds like gas lighting was a dynamic. So when things weren't going well, that would show up.

How would gas lightings show up in your relationship? I don't think I could count on one hand how many times my hurts, trauma, sadness, disappointment was credited or was listened to in a sensitive, responsive way. What I can remember a lot of is what's wrong with your psychopath a lot? And I mean examples where this withdrawal would happen and I could feel that's from me, I'm telling you. I could feel my body. I could feel the voice of my body is saying to me something is wrong.

This person is lying, and not only that they're a slap dash liar, because the way that they're even talking to you isn't convincing. And I would express that and say, I don't believe what you're saying, or why do I feel like you're putting away from me? Or why do I feel like there's something going on with this woman? Or why do I feel like you want where you said you were? And I would get because you're crazy

or because you're psychotic. And then, of course that's so complex, because what happens is when you hear that enough in your relationship, you learn not to voice your opinions because you're just going to get met with that. A gaslided and narcissistic relationship is a slow silencing. You may begin by sharing concerns, fears, intuition, and be told so many times that you were crazy or paranoid or psychotic that

you simply stop, which was exactly her experience. Your intuition is always on the abuse is what turns it off. Rebecca also lays out so clearly here what gaslighting does to a person. It shifts our identity and our sense of who we are and how we go through the world. Many people in these relationships, who always saw themselves as well regulated, thoughtful, well considered people, will begin to believe that they're reactive, unhinged, and out of control of their emotions.

And so we play the game out in our head. If I say this, then they'll tell me I'm crazy. If I do that, then they'll tell me I'm paranoid. And in Rebecca's case, it was even worse. He was using his narrative about her behavior to validate his own acting out. Gaslighting doesn't just deny reality, it is ultimately

a denial of the self. Also, once you are met with that answer, and once that narrative is written for you, that you're the psychotic one who can't control their emotions, and suddenly there you are feeling sad all the time because you think your brain doesn't work and there's something wrong with you, rather than you know, respect sing and listening to what you actually feel, which is that your partner is doing something untoward you start a gas like yourself.

Before you even opened your mouth, you're saying, well, there's no point in saying that, because you're doing that crazy thing that you do again. And then before you know what's happening, you're living inside of prison, your own head, your own body, and that of course suits this person because that is facilitating their own bad behavior. I mean,

that was constant. And then of course what happens, as we mentioned with the publicness of our breakup was I had this wash of validation because the very person that that my partner was photographed with and that was on the front page is of the UK tabloid Press one Sunday morning was the very woman that I had accused him of having an affair with, and he had told

me that I was a psychopath. And then more and more women came forward because of the publicness, and I was like, oh, I remember that Manchester, I remember that that was no I remember when he came back from taur and all of these instances just you know, like a montage in front of my head out I was like, oh, it felt like honestly as well, lots of people have said to me that must have been really difficult. I was like, honestly, honey, like it felt like a wish

of validation. Every single time I felt like I had had my brain handed back to me by default. It's relatively rare for survivors of gas lighting to get their gas light turned off. To have the experience, you had to have somebody come and provide the evidence and tell you you were not wrong. The fantasy for many people is that that would come from the guess later. That's never going to happen. But the idea of getting your

brain back there is no greater. It's almost like when those home shows where someone comes in and clean your whole house and you're like, everything's so organized. Each time somebody comes in and ungas light, you're like, oh, look, everything's where it needs to be. This is right right, It's like everything's tidy and clean, and I actually feel

like a good function in this space again. And so when you would find like you would have these suspicions and you would say I'm concerned about this, or this doesn't add up, or where were you or why don't you want me to be here? Or why do you want me to join you? Whatever the reasons were, and he'd pull back and push back and say you're paranoid,

you're a psychopath, or something wrong with you. During the relationship before the big public breakup, did you ever catch him out in the lies, like, for example, I'm hearing that he's shut you down by telling you're a psychopath. But did he ever attempt to rationalize his bad behavior? Yes, well, I mean he's he was a stand up comedian, So there was lots of touring. There was lots of being away from home. There was one instance where I found

a phone number in his jacket pockets. And I used to have these really strange, like vivid fantasies when I would, you know, be as I, you know, my most maday alike because I've put it before, sort of you know, desperate for some kind of validation and revenge in it out for blood really, And I found this thing in this jacket pocket, and there was lots of what am I supposed to do if women throw themselves at me when I'm on tour? You know, that's not my fault.

There was lots of that, and I was like, you know, at the time, thinking, I said to him, but he don't take the number, and you say, I have a girlfriend's and there was some kind of back and forth about how that makes him feel awkward and embarrassed because

what if it's that that's not what they meant. And the thing that really strikes me is one instance, many many years ago, which was only about nine months into our relationship, when we were living together, we bought this house together, and I found some explicit messages on Facebook that he had been sharing with a woman. He was out one Saturday night and we had a shared laptop and I went onto Facebook and he must not have

logged out. He didn't log into Facebook very often, but I did, and he must not have logged out from it, because it just came straight up on the screen and I found a heap of explicit messages to this one woman, And I mean, I called him up and I said to him, who's her name? And he said who? And I had detail exactly what I saw that you know that trigger memory, and straight away I was like, we're done, I'm done, let's go. I left. He really really pursued me to hear him out. He had a bit of

an apathetic assistance. So he had a good mate who was a really really good guy and who is a really good guy. He's sort of a family man and with children and very you know, and he and he really reasoned with me on behalf of on behalf of my boyfriend and when we met up. It was a one off, drunken mistake, he said, which I'm truly sorry for.

And everyone is allowed to make a mistake. This is an interesting sequence and not uncommon in toxic relationships, getting someone else to do their bidding, and it's even more powerful when the person doing the bidding for the toxic person is legitimate in some way. In this case, it was because this guy was a family man. The narcissistic person will often mobilize other people to come to their rescue, and since they're always surrounded by enablers and people can't

see what these patterns are, people will step up. It makes it really hard for someone in one of these relationships because when other people are using tried and true defenses like everybody makes a mistake involving another person will often raise more doubt for the person harmed by a narcissistic person. And this sense that, well, other people think my partner is cool, so maybe I'm the one who's

being too stubborn or demanding. It's not lost on me that her ex, in this cowardly way had a friend's step in when he had clearly done something wrong. It put Rebecca in an untenable position and sadly got her stuck for longer. I just thought, you know what, Yeah, they are they are allowed to make mistakes, and what

am I going to be? Stubborn? For stubborn's sake? I've got this man right opposite me, and he loves me, and I love him, and I'm prepared to forego any kinds of insecurity that I feel about this and try and make this work. And let me tell you something, very quickly after that instant, I can't tell you quite when. Very quickly after that instance, me finding explicit messages is to another woman on Facebook became why are be spying

on me on Facebook? Anyway? Which then very quickly became separate laptops and passwords and sermons on the importance of privacy and lectures on why it's very important for the two of us to lead separate lives and have secrets, you know, And it would all and imparted to me in sort of very elevated, holier than that ways self righteousness is just so it's so powerful. One thing that I'm hearing here, and I know a lot of people have said this to me. They said that the gas lighting,

Why are you so sensitive? Why are you so paranoid? Why are you so this? You know you're you're a psychopathist and the other right, And people over time will internalize that because this really is a These relationships aren't about falling in love. They're about being indoctrinated into the control, all in abusive system of the narcissistic person. And what people do over time is they equate strength with not

having emotional reactions to being betrayed. I cannot put that out of myself, right, I'm being betrayed, I'm being shamed, I'm being humiliated, I'm being pathologized. But I'll show him. I'm not going to say anything, right, So that idea of dissociating yourself from yourself is look how strong I am. I'm like, that's like the worst most unhealthy thing that

could You are talking my language. Honestly, I've said it so many times to friends over you know, God knows how many glasses are saving your belong that I am. I just cannot believe that I allowed myself to use my strength like something that I have prided myself on, you know for years. It's like there was a version of me that my strength stepped out of my body and turned slowly around like in a horror film at me.

You know, I was at war with myself, and I thought that it was my greatest asset in this relationship. But I was using my strength against myself in order to enable him. Correct because what you were doing is your strength meant I'm going to cut off all parts of Rebecca. So really all that's left is this shell of myself that lives in his service. Oh my gosh. Yeah, absolutely,

in his orbit and his exactly. So he was the Sun and all human beings in his life, with the planets or a bitting around him, and that was it. There was no other function for anyone, absolutely no, The world only only existed as far as he could see it, correct, and it was that that self serving, that ecocentric. And then what he would do is he would weaponize his backstory.

I went through this, I went through that, I've been through this, I've been through that, so that that sort of you know, taking out the victimization and using it as a weapon, effectively ending the conversation. Oh, I mean, what could I say that that's him? You know, what

could I What can I possibly say to that? There's there really is no argument, I mean, and I didn't have the at the time, well self love really or self nurturing to say that's not relevant to this conversation, because I'm still entitled to my feelings and I'm entitled to how I feel irrespective of what it has we've

been through. Because as there's different it's a different facet, it's a different lane, and it reminds me actually quite a lot of during that time and that relationship, I stepped away from so many conversations like the ones that you and I are having now, which I take a huge amount of pleasure in having it stepped away from women, well women full stop really, but because throughout that relationship, especially at the end of the relationship, it's like I saw,

I saw every woman through his eyes, and I could identify within the first three seconds whether they were a threat or safe, truly, because I just saw what he saw, and I especially found unimaginably threatening women who were most like my full self and most like the person that I was before I met him, because on some level, it's as though I knew that if I continued the conversation with these women, if I, you know, developed myself in the way that they were, you know, free to

develop because they had nothing at stake, or so I believed, I would find out that I shouldn't be in this relationship. So I just stopped having those conversations and I stayed where I was. I stayed in the same place. Many survivors know, at some deep, unspoken level that if they stop shrinking themselves to stay in the relationship or actually explore it honestly and deeply, that they will find out

that they probably have to leave it. As a result, survivors may avoid therapy, avoid talking to friends who will tell them the truth, and even avoid the people that allow them to grow because there is a fear that then they would have to act on that information. It's sort of the ignorance is bliss model, but in this case it's not so much bliss as self sabotage meets self protection. Part of your book that really was so

striking to me. You're in Denmark with your friend and in fact you do this beautiful beautiful, equating the original Hans Christian Anderson story about the Little Mermaid. And you know, the piece we forget is in the original telling of the story is that she makes all those sacrifices and and her legs feel like knives are going through them, and she loses her voice and all of that, and the Prince still rejects her. That part of your book

gave me chills. But on that trip, at that point, your partner had already been chosen to be on the next season of Strictly Come Dancing, which for listeners it's like Dancing with the Stars in the States. And then you said to your friend, I don't feel good about this. I can already see where this is going to go. And even your friend there's been nothing but a support as like you're already thinking ahead to that, almost like

you're you've created the story in your head. But as I read that part of the story of your instincts were spot on, like you knew him better than he knew himself at this point, right, And then you were like, I don't feel comfortable with this, But in the same breath, you're like, I want to be the supportive girlfriend, so I need to support him doing the very thing that I know is going to harm me. Oh yeah, absolutely.

It was such a feeling of helplessness because, as we've said, you know, what was at stake for me was everything that I've ever been told that I needed and how I am a valid adult woman, and so there I am, and I mean this extreme state of helplessness where I can choose to follow my instincts here and lose my relationship, or I can put my instincts to one side and

choose to be supportive and lose myself. And at that point in my relationship, losing myself felt like, well, if I'm totally candid, it felt like the only option at that point for me, because I was so as you pointed out, trauma bonded with this person that I couldn't imagine a life without him. I really couldn't. And I just I would sit in this relationship and I would sit in bed at night and I would you know, be up not being able to sleep. And I love sleep.

So that's how I always know that I I, you know, something's really really wrong here. But I would just think, I can't believe that this is my life. I can't believe that this is what my life is. But there was always a part of me that was saying to myself, but if you left, it could be worse. You know, think about what you have got. Think about what you have got. You've got this partner who is successful and has an incredible income. You have a flat age, you know,

twenties seven years old. That's you know, that's it's completely impossible in London. But that doesn't happen. You have a successful partner who's famous, and every single person in your life thinks she landed on your feet. Why what's wrong with you? Why don't you? And yet the thing you're missing and there is is Rebecca getting to be her whole, full,

authentic self and be loved for her. And that wasn't on the table under it, no flatten the world that can be better than that, and yet we tuck ourselves out of it. So he goes on Districtly Come Dancing. He starts dancing with this partner where this doesn't feel good. But you would show up to the tapings week over a week as his girlfriend. Yeah, I was there every

single week. Yeah, sitting in the audience waiting to be acknowledged in thinking back on it now, it's such a funny thing to speak about it, because you know they say that when you look back on your life and

it looks like a film and you're over it. And I really do feel that way, you know, the way that I speak about this person who was turning up to these recordings oft come dancing in her pretty dress and nice new shoes and nice new makeup, which is waiting to be told that I looked nice by my partner, because really that was how logo bar was set at that point. You know, if he had said you look nice, it would have felt like, you know, the sun had

come through the class. But I think about her as a completely different woman, and she she is a completely different woman to me now that she's She's entirely different. She would turn up to these recordings and be so proud and also so delighted. I remember there was one week where he had done so well on this show and he had got some great marks for a passadoblay with his partner and I stood, I jumped to my

feet and I was applauding and I was crying. In a big camera got innostantly wheeled in front of my face. To like have a full HD shot of all this emotion from this girlfriend. And I was standing and applauding and clapping because I felt so relieved from seeing with my own eyes that they had been rehearsing like they said they were up until nine pm. They hadn't been doing what I thought they'd been doing, which is having

an illicit affair. And I was clapping and applauding in that audience because I felt so relieved that, yeah, I was a psychopath. This is such an apt metaphor that when we look back at ourselves in our narcissistic relationships, that it feels like a film and we are often a character that we no longer recognize. That's not a bad thing. It's a reminder that growth can and does

happen after these relationships. And when we look backwards, the key is to nazi it from a place of shame, but rather from how far we have come, you know. And I was just there going to thank God my brain doesn't work and that there's something wrong with me, rather than be right about this and lo and behold.

That was the very evening where in that car park he'd had to turn around and tell me that actually the following day that they were going to be in the papers, because I was right all along and they have been having an affair. We will be right back with this conversation. Lay that evening out for listeners, because I before as held on too. I can't believe I'm sitting here talking to you because I watched every word of that story. Oh my gosh, this is such a

this is such a narcissistic story. But if you could you go from the pasodouble clapping. Thank goodness, they actually were rehearsing. I was wrong. I'm the paranoid one. There's something wrong with me. Take us to what happens after that. So I'm there in the audience and the recording ends, and there's a gazebo in a car park outside the studio where the guests of the performers can go and get a glass of wine and champagne and wait for their partners or the people that are in the show.

And I'm there at the bar getting a glass of champagne, one for me and one for him, and I see his agent run through the gazebo, and I think that's strange. I am. I didn't know he was going to be there tonight, and everyone looks quite fasted. So I'm just sort of like totter out, you know, my cute little shoes with my prosecco one for me and with my boyfriends say well done. And I see the two of them having what looks like a crisis talk, and I go up to my boyfriend and I say, what's going on?

And his agent just goes completely silent, and he looks ashen. This guy, you know, my boyfriend, this is well, both of them really completely ashen, and there's just silence, and I say, this is Are you ready for what I said? What have I done? Were my words? And his agent just looks at him and he goes, I think you better take her over there and tell her. We go over and this guy can't look me in the eye

and he is fuming. I mean, he's absolutely livid. And at this point I have no idea why, and I just we're just standing there in complete silence, and I said to him, what's wrong? And he says, where are you sleeping tonight? I say, um, at home and he goes, no, you're not, so what is going on? You have to tell me what's going on? And he just laws at the sky, and then there's this pause and he says, the sun have got pictures of me and the dancer kissing.

He doesn't look at me, like he's looking over my shoulder, and I just I'm telling you. And when I relay this next part of the story, it sounds like I'm writing a screenplay or something, but I'm absolutely not. It was as though a line of white light like a photocopier started at my head and went through my body and filled me with what I now know to be complete empowerment. And I just smiled and said, oh. In my head, all I could hear is he's not good

enough you and he never has been. And you were right, you were right all along. But I didn't need to say anything. I didn't need say anything at all. I just went oh. And then he just and then he said I have to get them out of here before her husband hits me. And I said, I'm coming with you. You know you're not, and I said I am. And then I turned to his agent and I said, don't let him go anywhere, because he owes me this. And

that was the evening. And PS. What I should also state was that the night that those pictures were taken. Pictures of the two of them kissing in the street were taken. Was three days earlier, and it was my thirty second birthday, and I had been waiting for him to come home where I had prepared dinner. And I called him because he texted me saying we'll go out for drink and I said, I don't know what's going on, but I called my best friends that I feel like

there's something wrong here. I feel like it's not okay. Am I Am I being precious about this? Am I being you know, a brats to think that it's not okay for my boyfriends to go out with another woman on my birthday, especially a woman that he knows that I'm already paranoid about. When we are in a narcissistic relationship, we even start to doubt that two plus two is four and we need reassurance about really fundamental truths. Her boyfriend went out with another woman, a woman that Rebecca

had shared her concerns about. He went out for a drink with another woman on Rebecca's birthday. And Rebecca is the one who was wondering if she is being too neurotic, too needy, and too sensitive. That's what these relationships due to us. Her instincts were always right. But after we have been gaslighted long enough, we will inevitably gaslight ourselves.

And I called him up and I said please come home, and he shouted at me, and then he got home that later that evening and eight half of the cold lasagna that I had prepared, and said in the doorway of my bedroom, I just wish you could see the servers together and you would be able to see with your own eyes what psycho you are. So this whole thing, I mean you talk about the dream. I mean, in

a way, it is the dream. It is like Bobby from Queer, I, you know, coming in and sorting my brain out for me and giving me a whole new, you know, load of soft furnishings and space that I never knew existed. But that was the evening, and then the Sun on Sunday ran with this headline and it was on the front pages about this affair that had happened. And what actually happened was that I got asked for comment by a lot of journalists who offered me a lot of money to sell my story and to have

my say. As they put it to me. You know, it's we thought it was only fair, and I was like, how good of you. I guess that I knew that whatever I had to say would be on their terms

the second that I gave it to anyone else. So I released a statement on Twitter and said, prompted by the fact that my boyfriend made a public apology and didn't acknowledge me at all in it at all, Yeah, we'd love for you to read the statement here so because some people may and I have seen it and in your voice, I want people to hear the statement because honestly, we could have just had you read the statement, and this could have been the whole episode. It's that good, Okay,

I'll read it to you. So my statement read, hello there, my name is Rebecca Humphries, and I am not a victim. I wasn't sure whether to respond to events from the past week, but I feel the narrative has missed a couple of crucial elements that I would like to clear up. It's incredibly good of my boyfriend and his dance partner to apologize in the media. I've received nothing other than the support of my family, friends and a host of strangers on the internet who all wanted to make sure

I was okay. But I have also kindly received are many offers to sell my side of the story, but I would prefer for it to be on my own terms. Those pictures were taken on October three, it was my birthday. I was alone at home when he texted at ten pm saying the two of them were going for one innocent drink. We spoke and I told him, not for the first time, that his actions over the past three weeks had led me to believe something inappropriate was going on.

He aggressively and repeatedly called me a psycho, slash nuts, slash mentor, as he has done countless times throughout our relationship when I've questioned his inappropriate, hurtful behavior. But this whole business has served to remind me that I am a strong, capable person who was now free and no victim. I have a voice, and I will use it by saying this to any woman out there who deep down feels worthless and trapped with a man they love. Believe

in yourself and your instincts. It's more than lying is controlling. Tell some very close friends who if there are anything like my wonderful network will swoop in and take care of the logistics and a view. It's important also to recognize that in these situations, those who hold power over you are insecure and fragile, and their need for control comes from a place of vulnerability. I think it certainly does in his case, despite everything. I hope he gets

what he wants from this. I'm not sorry I took the cat. They love Rebecca. It's the best Twitter post actually ever in the history of Twitter post. And I'm not sorry I took the cat though actually could have been the title of the memoir, which was actually where I'm like, Okay, I love this woman. You always you always take the cat, you always take in vain. So this statement gets posted and then what you just did? You post it at night and just go to sleep.

You know what happened was I had a huge crisis of confidence throughout that day. I wrote it on the Monday, so the day after the papers came out and consulted with almost everyone, including my therapist, who took one look at it and said, Rebecca, you have to post this

because you have a voice. And I took that very very seriously, and I just had this moment where I was sitting at this kitchen table and my friends were making me dinner, you know, and she was sort of taking all of the roast potatoes and the greens into the other room and said, you know, whenever you're ready, and I went okay, okay, and I sat there and I just when I'm too scared, and then I just had this moment where I was like, Rebecca, I don't want to look back on my life and see any

moments where I had an opportunity to assert myself and didn't take it. I don't want that for myself. And with that thought, I just went in clicks end and ran into the other room and I just went I've done it, and they went okay. And then not thirty seconds later, I could hear my phone vibrating in the other room and I just didn't stop. It just didn't stop, and I and I leaped up and I ran and I looked at my phone and everyone I knew messaging me, calling me. I opened up the laptop and I actually

threw it at my friend Bell. I was like, just look at it, look at it. I can't look at it. And she looked and she said, it's had three thousand likes and this was within ten minutes, and honestly, it was wild. It was on the news at ten in

the UK and it was a moment really like. People were retweeting it, women's charities were retweeting it saying, you know, you might have noticed that in my statement, I very very deliberately didn't use the word gas lighting because I just wanted to lay out the behavior and I wanted to not be accusatory. I wanted the world to the world to call it not me, and that's exactly what happened. People were headlining this is what gas lighting looks like,

this is what this means. And the following day I woke up and I was on the front page of every newspaper in the UK saying this is empowerment, this is this is what this means. And it was a real It was just most amazing. It was the most amazing example for myself of when you step into your authenticity, people hear you, people really do. It was beyond viral. It was the manifesto we wanted to hear and in many ways very powerful from you. You're an incredibly accomplished actress, writer.

I mean, you're looked upon as like, Oh, she must have her life together. She's wonderful, she's perfect, she's cool. And when you put that statement out there, you're like, Okay, if this happened to her, it happened to me. It's not because I'm less than or foolish, like she has it all together and I this happened to me, And it happens to people at all. People. It happens to women who are profoundly powerful and women who have no power at are the universality of it. I think you

really gave it voice. Everyone else might be empowered, and I understand at that moment something shut down for you. But at this point he didn't catch you two inches above the pavement. So this is going on. You're having your own personal experience. What were the initial days and weeks like after this post went out and the relationship ended. Well, it's it's interesting that you say that, because really, at that point that was and I really wasn't in the public eye at that point at all. He and I

met on a sitcom. So we met on a TV show, where may I say, because you know why not? I had I had a bigger role than he did at that time I was. I was more constable at that moment in my life. Well, that was one of the first things to go well, because I allowed him to diminish me and my career in order to elevate his own for such a long time, and it felt like there was only room enough for one career in that house and it had to be his. So my career was gone. Mean I walked out that night that those

pictures were in the newspapers. I didn't have a boyfriend, I didn't have a home, I didn't have a job, I didn't have any income anymore. But what I did have was, it turns out, more self respect than I would ever have given myself credit for, and a voice and my worth all of a sudden, And it's like you said earlier, there's no flat in the world that means as much as that. And I really truly felt what that was like during that period of time, and

it didn't matter. I also saw for myself truly during that time, because of how dramatic it was, because of how much I had lost and and how it was many people's worst nightmare what happened to me, And so what I really really got to take stock of was what love actually looked like, which was the love of my family and my friends, who showed the hell up for me in that moment and flooded me with respect, honesty, open and honest communication, their trust, their support, their affection,

their care, all stuff that I had been missing in a relationship that I was labeling love. And suddenly I was like, oh my gosh. I felt so emotional living with my friends during that point, because it was truly unfathomable to me that I could live under the same roof as people who behave as though they enjoyed my company, and honestly, I felt completely enriched by by that experience,

and of course I had a broken heart. And of course this is something that people don't really speak about enough about when you leave those kind of relationships and leave emotionally abusive relationships, which is that there were points where I was just like, for no reason, for no apparent reason, I'm standing here and it's bonfire night in

the UK, and there are fire what's happening. I've got hot dog in my hands and I miss him and I'm missing and I know he's an ass and I you know, I know that he did all these awful things to me. But good God, I wish he was here. And I can't tell you why that is, but those moments appears and I felt like I could handle them. I felt like I could, Yeah, because of because of the love and support of everyone around me, and the love and respect for myself that I had after asserting

myself in that way. That's a profound point. I'm so happy you had it, and I couldn't agree more because as a psychologist who weighs in and works with folks on this every day, it's hard to create a social support network for someone. So some people would go through something not as public as you did, but certainly that moment of revelation and they don't have support. And it's

because they often become quite isolated in these relationships. So your story shows us the profundity in many ways how important support is to get to the other side, because you have accurate mirrors, you have people who validate you, you have people who help you keep that gaslight turned off. Your story is sort of an incredible example of that, and that there's that moment sometimes in these relationships you suffer, you suffer, you get confused, you you sort of believe

this hype, you go on the roller coaster ride. So when the entire cover is pulled off and it's shown for what it is, in a way, you've actually kind of been doing the disconnection from the relationship for a long time. You were just waiting for that final piece of evidence, and then there it was, and so you

had that support. And how has life been since? Because you've actually become a really important voice for this kind of emotional abuse and within relationships that often hasn't had a voice, and your your work has been really really powerful to those of us who act in this world's advocates a therapist. So, how have you been doing? How is how is your process of healing been unfolding? Well, it's been It's been hard walk, It's not been easy, kids.

You know what I realized quite early on that a lot of my healing process was going to take a lot of looking in the damn mirror. And for those of us who feel insecure and you know, have a low sense of self esteem as it is, you know, looking in the mirror can feel almost scarier than just making the same mistakes until we die sometimes, you know. But you know, it took a lot of boldness and bravery, and of course that support network to step up and do that. And it has been the most challenging and

rewarding four years of my entire life. I mean, my work has has flourished, no question, because I no longer go to auditions with a person going well doing doing their best to make me aware that my best probably won't be good enough in that meeting, you know, And now I you know, suddenly I didn't have that anymore.

And lo and behold, there I am being handed work and and of course the revelation sations that I am discovering about emotional abuse and about like you say that it comes for strong, sexy, intelligent, cool women as much as it does for women that we want to label victims in our society or the way that pop culture

presents victim hoods. I'm making all these discoveries that, oh man, that's wrong, and no one's talking about that, so I guess I will, you know, I guess that's that's my job, because I needed to know that when I was in that relationship and no one was talking about it. So now I need to say it because the idea that people don't know about this is just doesn't make any sense to me at all. So you know, lots of my work has been about uncovering those things and finding

ways to speak about them. I've spoke in the House of Commons in the UK about gas lighting in the media and the media's portrayal of victim hoods. And obviously, you know, I wanted to write this book, and I had this idea to write the book. It was actually during the pandemic when I just had this or my moment of going, what's happening in this world. I don't have any work, of course, but I'm they're going, thank god, I'm not in that flat anymore. Thank God I'm not there.

And when I had that thought, I thought, how many women in this country are living with partners and they have no idea that they are experiencing emotional abuse and someone needs to do something. Rebecca is sharing the classical story of thriving after a person gets out of one of these relationships. Narcissistic relationships are often a block. We stop taking risks, we hold back, We're afraid of their criticism,

and we are afraid of our own success. Not only do our careers and pursuits often get diminished in these relationships, but so many people thrive when they are finally over. I think everyone in these relationships says, I know, this isn't right. It's probably my fault, and people around them may also be thinking well of relationships or just tough, so it's complicated. There's a point in the book where you questioned, if you were becoming a narcissist, why did

you think that? Well, I suppose the reason I thought that was because when I came out of the relationship, I was so unaccustomed to thinking about myself and my needs and my experiences, my feelings. I was just learning that language. And I look back on that now and I think, no, I wasn't obsessed with who I was. I was just developing a healthy relationship with myself and my intellectual self and my emotional self. And I was developing a dialogue. But for me, a healthy dialogue looked

like self obsession because I never I never had it before. Ever, I agree, yeah it is. And suddenly I'm there, going, oh, I can all I can think about is myself and you know whatever, And all I seem to be talking about is myself, you know, and my own narcissists, so my friends, and that's sort of going oh. I think so many survivors have this experience of thinking that they themselves may be a narcissist when they are in these relationships.

Whether it's because the other person is saying you are, because you are constantly ruminating about the relationship, because you find yourself talking about it all the time, or because you are thinking about what you need or what you want. That internal obsessive rumination is a classical part of the fallout of narcissistic abuse and gas lighting. And no, it does not mean you are narcissistic. Do you have any questions for me? I do have a question for you,

And great, I suppose that there's a chancel. I'm coming at this with too much empathy really, given what we know about narcissists. But my question is is that it has to do with a narcissist born or made and is narcissism? Uh? Can it? Can it be put down to being a coping mechanism for something fortum? Narcissism in many ways is a set of defenses that protect the core insecurity of the person who has those defenses. Being grandiose,

being arrogant, being entitled, gas lighting, manipulating. In essence, everything is to maintain their sense of power and domination so they don't have to have that uncomfortable shame of having all of that percolate up. It's all an unconscious process. Here's where it gets tricky, Rebecca. I love your empathy, but the fact of the matter is, is is your number two that that person in your life he was able to turn on the charm and then very quickly when

he had you by yourself, called you a psycho. He wasn't doing that in front of other people. He was doing that when he was alone with you, so he wouldn't look like a bad guy. That's a choice. A person who was really that disregulated would do it in front of everyone. Okay, that that's a definite definitely a different process. But he was very calculated, and that calculation requires a relatively high level of functioning. So he really

was living in service too. I want my way and I'll do whatever I need to do, and it's open season on my partner. I can say whatever I want to Rebecca because she's going to keep coming back. So rather than saying I shouldn't say to someone, I could hurt them, I could lose them his schema as I can always pull her back. I would say those defenses are a way of protecting the narcissistic person. Narcissism is made.

There's a temperament narcissistic people have. There's a certain temperament as children they likely had, but not even that in every case. But the environment shapes them. And some narcissistic people, yes, are shaped by trauma and chaos and invalidation and issues with attachment. But some narcissists are shaped by simply being overindulged and being told you're more special than anybody else. And because some people do grow up with trauma and invalidation,

in fact, most don't grow up to be narcissistic. There's something else up reading there. It also can be that temperamental piece. So it's complicated. It's very complicated, but it's not fully a trauma reaction. There's enough people out there who didn't have that backstory. But ultimately many, many people who go through trauma. Again, I'd argue most don't end

up narcissistic. But this idea that it's a coping mechanism, it is a defensive mechanism but they know better because he would not have treated you the way he would have treated a casting agent. Right. The fact that he can make that discrimination mean he knew, he knew damn well what he was doing. Well, I mean, it's fascinating. Thank you, Rebecca, Thank you so much for sharing your story, your experience with it, not just the public story we saw, but what happened to you and how it is such

a universal experience for so many people. Many people say, well, maybe it was something about me I attract these people. I say, now, the charm, the charisma, the stuff that drew you in with this guy would have drawn in anyone and anyone in that situation being manipulated. It's a game of cat and mouse. The mouse never wins. Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Rebecca. First, in a narcissistic relationship, our heart breaks long before the relationship

actually ends. The day to day of the relationship with the alternation between idealization and devaluation, rescue and abandonment, leaves a person who was in one of these relationships confused and hurt. It's a bit like breaking your leg in the same place every month. In Rebecca's story, the ultimate end, and the moment of clarity when she realized that she had been gaslighted and devalued was actually a moment of clarity, not devastation. She had done the hard work of heartbreak

over the years she was in the relationship. When she finally got confirmation of what it really was and saw it, that clarity carried her forward into her healing. In this next takeaway, these relationships only work when we make ourselves small, and that means abandoning our aspirations, our goals, selling ourselves short, and giving up on our own interest. To support the narcissistic person's pursuits, we have to diminish our successes so as to not threaten them or harm their fragile egos.

For many folks in or coming out of narcissistic relationships, they will find that they actually couldn't achieve what they wanted even if they tried. While they're in these relationships, it's as though the relationship is a toxic blockade. And yet once people get out of these relationships, they find themselves pursuing goals, making things happen, and going for it. Rebecca's story is not unusual of finding herself and thriving

and finding her voice. After she got out. We shrink ourselves so they can feel big, and sometimes getting out means a chance to finally fully occupy ourselves and shine. In my next takeaway, in Rebecca's book and in the interview, she shares the real original story of the Little Mermaid as told by Hans Christian Anderson. It's not the Disney version where the mermaid gets her voice and they live

happily ever after. In the original, the mermaid gives it all up, including her voice, and lives in pain to win the prince over, just to be rejected and die. Hans Christian didn't know he was writing the template for a narcissistic relationship. In the original stories of snow white and sleeping beauty, men in power fall in love with or have non consensual sex with sleeping women who also

have no voice. In modern times, we have sanitized these fairy tales in a manner that romanticizes, ignoring red flags with the promise of the happily ever after. Maybe keeping the fairy tales and they're terrifying and tragic original formats may be more honest. Ultimately, these watered down fairy tales create distorted expectations on what relationships are supposed to be.

Perhaps we will one day have fairy tales that involve equity, respect, compassion, empathy, and kindness in the relationship, with everyone awake and nobody having to give up their voices to be in love. In a way, Rebecca's tale is a modern fairy tale. By getting away from the pseudo prince, she gets her

voice back. And in my last takeaway, Rebecca, like many survivors, had empathy for her partner's backstory, a childhood that was more difficult and bleak than her own, and in a compassionate way, would attribute his manipulative behavior to his tough backstory and give him a free pass. And this is something that many a toxic person also does for themselves. I just had a tough childhood. That's why I do

these things. It's always hard to hear that someone had a tough start in life, but you aren't responsible for that, and using that as a justification for their bad behavior in the relationship misses the larger picture that the majority of people with difficult childhoods do not behave badly in relationships. Be careful at how much you let their backstory be a place where you justify behavior that is harming you, because this can be a cycle that is almost impossible

to break out of. A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valen Jethro, Ellen Rakaton and Dr Rominey Dr Vassila, And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Mara Dela Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnaghy and Calvin Bailiff.