Home Taken Over by a Squatter w/ Heidi Russell

The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I Heart Media, or their employees. I'd rather risk being arrested and fighting or in court rather than fighting or in the apartment because once she gets back in now that I've locked around, god knows what that escalation is going to now go to. Imagine you had someone stay in

your apartment. Your plan was that they'd stay for just a month. You were accustomed to renting out a room for some extra income, so this wasn't unusual. Now imagine that this person you brought in for one month hijacks your apartment. They refuse to leave. They even common deer household cleaners as weapons block you from entering rooms in your long time home, and then you learn that the system is more willing to support this squatter and leave you without a home, and then imagine that this has

been going on for three years. The story of Heidi Russell is a New York story for sure, but it is also a story of enabling gone bad. It's about what happens when grifters take advantage of rules that are designed to protect vulnerable citizens and work the system, and about systems that simply do not understand the dynamics of narcissistic personalities and the instruction that can be wrought by them. This is the story of what happens when people keep

making excuses for toxic people and toxic behavior. Welcome Heidi. I I really have to say that we have all different kinds of people on this podcast, but for me, this is a bit of a star sighting because I read your story with such absolute I was it was gripped by it when I read it, and people are

going to hear it from you. But I really, I mean, like again, a little bit star struck right now that I get to meet the person at the center of this story, and it goes beyond that though, because in your story I thought These are the sorts of stories that people need to hear about when we're thinking about navigating narcissism. So thank you so much for joining us today. Absolutely, it's my pleasure, Dr Romany, and can't wait to help get the message out and hopefully help others. Well you will,

that you will. So I'd love to start from the very top of your story if you could tell us how you and val came to buy your home. Absolutely, Valentina has nurtured this home base for a long time. Was on a wait list for many years to try to get into this middle income housing complex, which was created by Jane Jacobs and the seventies to provide an opportunity for middle income folks to have a affordable housing in the city. And she's an immigrant from the Soviet Union,

came with an infant son, didn't know any English. She knows seven languages, so she picked it up fast and found her way in America here and along that route, she came across this housing complex and thought, you know, this is an amazing neighborhood. Back then, so when I met her, she was a renter, still hadn't been able to buy. So those renters at the time in two thousand six, had the opportunity to buy an insider opportunity and still keep it affordable for those that were living there.

And so when I came and met her and she said, hey, you know, why don't you come live with me? And uh I was living on the Bowery at the time, was quite noisy and the Chinatown areas said yeah, and I'm an artist. I came here to pursue my photography and my art interests. So I said, all right, I'll come over and live in the village with you. And that was the start of their story, coming together and just supporting each other and realizing, you know, we can

help each other with our dreams. And uh I was able to find a lender to be able to help her dream come true as I had the job. She has a disability, so not able to work. So it's a real New York story. I mean, every New York story involves an apartment, right, So that that was really a New York story, and honestly it remains a New York story as we switch into how did the grifter

come into your life? How did that even happen? So we had to rent the second bedroom that we have and actually had had always done that prior to me. That was her way of making ends meet. And when Airbnb was in its height, we thought, let's try a little Airbnb, and we did that, and that's where this

grifter found us. And you'll hear later in the story that I later found out that this was her m o to scope out places through Craigslist or Airbnb, that she could manipulate one form of another to get free housing. And she only came in once or twice in a night or two with her daughter. She seemed fine, decent, caring mother, just on maybe a little bit of hard times. And the coop said that we could no longer do Airbnb. That had to be long term renters, which is thirty

days or more. And we had found a new student to take over in September of two nineteen, and we have three months free, and so I had asked a couple of people that we had connected with and she was one of them, and she obviously jumped on the chance and was a little more forward. So Val had already gone overseas to take care of her deceased mother's affairs, and we were communicating, but I kind of had to make the decision, and that was the start of the

of the crazy story. In a weird way, it sounds like this person was sort of chasing the joint, maybe getting to know your psychology, finding out how malleable you were, figuring out if the space worked for her. And as you said, Heidi, red flags are a funny thing. We can all see them in our rear view mirror, but it's really hard to see them in real time, and you'd feel that you have to be so suspicious. But there were some things about it that like, Okay, there's

a lot of chaos here. But then you thought, okay, we've got our new person. They're coming in September. So even if you saw red flags, you'd be like, Okay, it doesn't matter anymore because we have a new plan we're going forward with exactly exactly, and what do you're try and make ends meet and work at paycheck to paycheck. Three months of no roommate income is a big deal, so with having avowal overseas taking care of things over there,

we needed that extra extra income. Through a trialhood tribulations that began through the summer, I finally found out who

she really was in September. It was obvious her m O that she used with previous victims, and one of them being a previous victim who she used relationship energy to get that free housing was a black away, so it was obvious that probably was part of the choosing of our home that it was near this other victim who she could also intimidate and try to manipulate because there was a criminal case against her from that victim.

One of the most difficult cuot things about narcissistic and manipulative people is that they groom their victims, and grooming is a gradual process. If we are preoccupied, as many of us are, just what the stuff of life, and Heidi certainly was. Val was overseas managing a family issue. They had the stress of living paycheck to paycheck, and most importantly, we don't typically have the benefit of hearing the stories of those who came before us in dealing

with a narcissistic person that comes into our lives. Heck, at least when you purchase a used car, there is a report of past accidents and repairs. Well, people don't have such reports that go along with them, and in the absence of that data and combine with the grooming process. Most of us don't recognize that grifters are working a game from the moment they meet us. Wow. Wow, okay, okay, So that that's an interesting part of the story. And you didn't obviously know any of this at the time

that this person came to be in your apartment. Correct, she used her maiden name. Even just googling her, it wouldn't have found out anything. It was just by luck really that I found out later what I finally took the plunge. I kept thinking, okay, red flag, she wouldn't leave the end of June, as I asked her. We just kept hoping, maybe she'll come around, till she will leave at the end of August. What was the hope based on for you? Why? Why did you think that

you kept hoping she would leave? She came into your apartment when you said June, yeah, the beginning of June, June fourth. Interestingly, we've had some experience was even as a tenant, having to evict somebody who stopped paying us or was threatening us, and so we knew what needed to take place, and we knew under thirty days. Once somebody stays thirty days, you have to go through the legal process, which can take upwards of a year more in tens of thousands of dollars. So I had her

come in on June fourth instead of June first. I was even pre planning, just in case. So you were pre planning. You were thinking that if this person tries to sort of run a hustle on me, now I'm a few days in. That gives time for a July one or whatever, June thirties wherever she finds something new. But her grift, her manipulation, was many steps ahead of that. So it sounds like she stayed a couple of nights with you in the past. Yes, just a night here

and a night there when it was an airbnb. Yes, just so I'm clear. So then she comes back in early June. You have a new person coming in in September. But at this point, just so I'm clear, Heidi, the COOPO as saying, there can be no longer short term rentals. So if this person was going to come in at this point, the grifter person is coming in, they would have to stay at least thirty days? Am I right about that? Correct? Correct? And as always said, we'll give

you this three months up until Antibogoshy. She's like, oh, that's great. It gives me time to find a place for because her daughter was also going to school in the village right nearby. So when she came and stayed with you those the night here in the night there before, you do know she had a daughter, right, so when she came there, as in June, she came with a daughter.

I'm always hopeful the goodness of people. And so even though when you get red flags as such, they're saying, okay, well, here's a single mother and seems very charming, well spoken, educated for her seemed to be educated, down on our luck, trying to find a safe home for her child. You're hopeful. And then even when you see these signs of oh no, I can't leave, I need this apartment for an address for the custody battle. You're gonna make me lose my child.

That was the first aggression that I saw from her, and the realizing that the tentacles were locked in and I had a real problem on my hand. But even after that and talking lawyer had given me the advice where you have an agreement, you either give him some money or something and say take this and leave. And at that point I was out of money and I couldn't give her any money. So how about I'll give you the rent free for the rest of the summer if you agree to leave at the end of August

like we had originally planned. And she's like, oh yeah, yeah. We talked like for an hour, and it was like, I probably gave too much information about myself at the situation with about on her her mother who had been murdered actually, and Kiev and our neighbors who are nasty and this or that. They use that information right later, but she seemed like, oh, yeah, okay, that sounds good. Okay, gives me time to find another place before my daughter's

school starts. And then a few days later, I said I'm going to write something up so we could sign it for both of us, and then she just wouldn't answer, and oh no, I'm gonna have my daughter's lawyer look at look it over and again. Right then I knew that she was not going to sign it and she probably wouldn't leave, and being the good person, I am the hopeful person and also acrastinator, I thought, Okay, let's

just hope fingers crossed. Maybe she will, and obviously when she didn't leave August thirty one, I had to set the actions and motions for trying to actually a victor. Pro say, initially, you know some of the details that stick out or sort of details about you where even the person you're living with now and other people said, you're just too good, You're so nice. And it's coming

up again and again on navigating narcissism. We're talking to folks and they're like, I came from a happy family, Like I was taught that people are good and nice. And with each person I talk with, and I think with each episode people listen to, we're starting to realize that the people who are greatest risk, and this is supported by the research are the people who actually believe in the good of other people, which is a sad kind of a statement that there's a suspiciousness that's almost

needed in this world right now. But you actually came at this from you saw a situation holistically. It's a mom with a daughter who's fallen on hard luck. She knows the neighborhoods, or child in a school. You crafted a narrative from a place of empathy and compassion, whereas the other player in the story was really viewing this as a manipulation and exploitation, a searching out of weakness and a way to advantage this situation. You were both

playing different games. You were playing checkers and she was playing chess and cheating. Yes, absolutely, when goodness collides with manipulation, someone is going to get hurt. Heidi considers herself as a person who sees goodness in people, and here she sees a young child, narcissism and grifters raise a time

warn dilemma of how much trust is too much? And another process we observe here is how once the griff d tenant was seeing that her scam for free rent was working, the conversation then mode, which created another danger, which is sharing too much information with the manipulative toxic person. Heidi opened up to her, perhaps relieved that there was a path forward. What seems like sharing an openness to healthy people. Actually it's just data collateral and intel that

a toxic person can manipulate to sustain their abuse. Throughout this whole process, which is now hit as three year mark, people say, oh your resilience and your grace and oh my god, I would have would have killed this person i'd be in jail now or this or that. You know, one could look at goodness and empathy as a weakness, but I also feel that's a strength and because of that strength coupled with my resiliency and strength, and I'm a smart person, like I could see the signs. It's

just putting up together right. It's a great Kay study. But you said here people who would call goodness and empathy a weakness in the long game HEIGHTI goodness and empathy are the best things we can have. It's how do you we hold onto our goodness and our empathy and yet hold back and view things through more I don't know, like a a lens where awfulness is a possibility. There's actually an Ethiopian proverb that goes evil enters like

a needle and spreads like an oak tree. And the needle was when this when this woman's grifter entered your apartment for one or two nights. The oak tree what was? What is what unfolded over the next three years. It comes in very subtly. And I think that at the end, the real loss would be if somebody went through what you went through and lost the goodness and empathy because then one of the best parts of yourself would be gone.

The key is to come out the other side of these stories, maybe a little more cynical, but without losing the goodness and empathy. It's a tough it's a really tough balancing act. So have you ever met anyone like this? How had you before in your life ever met anyone

like the grifter? No? No, you've heard stories. And what's also interesting about this journey is the other discoveries and the peripheral the systems, and the realization of how all the systems have broken down and are not serving good abiding citizens. Yes I agree, as opposed to the criminals, and so making those realizations have it's sort of like

a double whammy. You're experiencing the trauma of being victimized by a manipulative grifter at the same time trying to find the resources to help you through it, and they're not there. And this was even before the pandemic, which then during the pandemic it was amplified. And I just like to mention and myself and Valentina, maybe even Appy, our dog, and all the previous victims who I came

to know. Number One thought in all of our minds was the ultimate victim is the child and how that was really just I could feel that energy and the tears welling up. It's just how could our society fail this child like this, to allow a grifter to be able to form and do their bidding time after time after time and not be held accountable and creating victims along the way, and with the ultimate victim being at

the child. Again, we've had other people talk about that in this podcast, and the fact of the matter is that our court systems completely have no interest in children's rights. It's parents rights, and when the parent is a grifter, that parents will completely co opt that system for their needs. And those systems are simply not designed to identify the needs of the children, which is really to me criminal because failing that child is going to have lifelong implications,

and the systems are designed to be gamed. That's the problem. So when you have a grifter coming into one of those systems, it literally becomes something for them to work through. And the systems are almost naive. They're naive, and they're not built to withstand people with these kinds of personalities. They really are not. So in your story, Heidi, so now we're up to it's August thirty one and she hasn't left, so we could already say that things start

going wrong. But in your story, when did things start to go wrong? When did it become wasn't just a red flag, it was now like red alarms and red fireworks. It started really from the first week. She couldn't pay me after about a week, and then she finally said, okay, I'm going to all the money from a friend of Florida, and then it got sent to me, and then I had to give money back from it. I had to make sure that check cleared, like this is sounding a

little scammy. And then slowly through the summer, taking over the living room when I was at work so I would come home. You kept us from using the living room in June, so now we get to use the living room always. So it just gradually increased in terms of the intimidation. And I call it stalking in one's own home. It's like every time we came home, it's like they're in the bathroom. If I go into the kitchen, there in the kitchen, they hugged the living room so

we can use the living room. So it built and then on August three, one, she and her daughter were out. We checked. We were serving her pro se with a friend, and we did the first serving knocking on her door. Didn't answer a few hours later, that's the process. We did it again. I'd asked a lawyer at the time, is it okay to go into the bedroom? Because I had heard conflicting things. Is it okay if I go in the bedroom to see if she's actually left? Because

I had no idea. Yeah, it's your apartment, it's your thing. You can go in and which you're not really supposed to do. But I had everything filmed at but at this point I was recording everything or and or filming everything at that point to keep myself protected. I went in and I had been trying to get things out of my closet in there that were memorabilia as such as she wouldn't let me in, so I said, okay,

doesn't let that gone. I'm going to take out my memorabilia items so that she doesn't do something with them. And I left to know and I said I had to go in, and she had pushed the button on the inside so I couldn't get in, So I had to use a pin and that's where our fire escape was. So I put a note on the door said if you're gone, you can't leave the door locked because it's a fire escape. I removed my items that I said up been needing to get out. She came home when

I was in the bathroom. I heard her come home, and I heard her say, oh, you came into our you came into our bedroom, and that's illegal. And where's the five bills that were the child's sitting on the table. And so right then that was like the real like fire. Okay, Now she's accusing me of things that I didn't do. And that's part of the game, the manipulation of being

afraid of even though you're not doing anything wrong. And I thought everything recorded and I have all the backup witnesses and everything, just that fear of being accused of something that you didn't do. And she used that for the whole summer. When are you giving this money back? Give it back? Where I'm going to the police. She said that so many times. Our session will continue after this break. Toxic relationships are sort of a kind of

creeping that slowly encroaches your life. In Heidi's case, it was more obvious as the grifter slowly crept and took over the living room. Another pattern that we witness here, which is a classical part of any narcissistic relationship, is that need to walk on eggshells to document everything, to even video everything, and record everything, because it's a matter of time before you were gaslighted and accused of things

that you didn't do. While this particular case is quite extreme, in many narcissistic relationships, people feel that over time they need to be so careful before they say or do anything because it feels like the toxic person is always trying to set a trap. And one of the things I noticed is that each of them separately were very demure, quiet stat in the quarter did their thing, but when they were there in the apartment together, it was just

like fire. The grifter as a mother was I think, just trying to show the kid that hey, I got the power and take care of you. And most of the instances where there was aggression they were both in the apartment. In other words, the mother was being more aggressive when the child was present, almost as though she

was performing for the child. And obviously, Heidi, you must have suspected this too, that she knew that if she did that while the child was present, it would really take away any possibility you had to push back because she had already determined that you were someone who was not going to become volatile in the presence of a child. So she was using her child as a human shield exactly. I I always said that she used her as a

shield and as a as a tool. As a tool, yeah, no, absolutely, which again, people with these kinds of antagonistic personality styles, and I use the term antagonistic because it takes in a lot of territory, right, So it takes in not just patterns that show a lack of empathy and an entitlement, a belief that rules don't apply to them. Again, that back to that entitlement, the arrogance, the grandiosity, the manipulation,

the exploitation, the moderate paranoia. It's like it's such a big, wide swath that a one word other than antagonism captures that whole kind of spectrum. And so that is what

you were very much dealing with. I also here, though, you were being subjected to your own kind of grooming process, because what this grifter roommate person was figuring out was that you were not going to lash out in a way that was going to be, if you will, terrifying, because the fact of the matter is, and I think you said friends and other people have said this to you, hiding his Other people in the situation may very well have become violent. Yes, I mean I think that actually

would not have been a non normative reaction. And while that person who would behave violently towards her may very well have faced some kind of criminal penalty, that would have also ended up the grifter in the street because they would have been the lease holder of the apartment. The landlord may have ended the lease, and who knows what would have happened. She determined very clearly that she could keep pushing that envelope, and that's what people who

are antagonistic do. They keep testing the limits. And when she recognized you weren't gonna snap, I could see how she just kept pushing that and pushing that, And then I think, too, this is and I think it's gonna

we tell the story more. Your story, like many of these stories, was just a story of systemic failures that it's as though none of these systems, the systems that issue restraining orders, law enforcement courts, whether it relates to tendency or family courts or any of that, actually understand antagonism, and because of that, they make these really kind of anemic weak recommendations or lack of action, And then everyone's often scratching their heads saying, well, how did it escalate?

It escalated because the people who could have actually done something didn't have teeth, the policies didn't have teeth, or they chase not to act on it. And I think your story replicates and duplicates all the time, is that

these systems don't want to take these antagonistic personalities seriously. Yes, for instance, a CS it got to a point where I knew, from being in the position of a landlord, I had to be very careful that any actions could be construed, especially in New York City, as landlord intimidation. So that's another thing that people have a hard time understanding in New York. Oh, I would have done know or I would have taken the toilet at her I would have taken. You can't do that. You'll be arrested

as a landlord intimidation. So there's that as well. And because of the pro Tennessee laws, and I'm all for them because we were protected as tenants prior to that. There's got to be nuances, So we were picking up on these systems that just again it's the opposite of the squeaky wheel. In fact, the squeaky wheel in these situations is what gets ignored whenever we try to come

home and set for the TV. Came home around ten and I said, well, you know, I'd really like to watch my Stephen Colbert was all, at least I can watch something before I go to bed. She's like, okay, lawyers told my daughter she's got to watch Cramer Versus Cramer for the custody court. I'm like, okay, all right, she's how much longer is the movie? About an hour?

So an hour I went by and she was still in there, and I'm making my food and I said I'd like to watch my show and she just went off, Oh my god, you kept us from using this for so long, and now the only reason you offered for us to stay here for freeze because you were afraid we were going to sue you for how you treated

us in June. So that whole taking over the apartment started, you know, fairly early on, and it just progressed, and I made the mistake of saying, the dog and I are allergic two cents and we can't have scented candles or incense, and so what does she bring and do every day? And sense and candles eventually escalated to especially when the pandemic hit. Before that, she was leaving dirty paper towels underneath the sink and in the bathroom, and

dirties dishes in this saying. And I mentioned this because once I have not been staying there, when I go in, it's like everything is pristine. And when I would leave, she would spray the light switch or the door handles knobs with chemical and even my door, and so there will be this green residue dripping. I would always say, stop spraying these things. I had to repair light switches

and such. And then when the pandemic hit escalated because at this point I was relegated to my bedroom with a thirty pound dog with all of my things that I had to take out of the living room that were valuable, my printer, computer, the TV and all of

that so she couldn't use it. And at that point I was laid off, and so I was trying to look for a job, so I would leave at a certain point and then I would be out all evening with my dog, pushing her around in the carriage and going to people's houses to have a shower, to have dinner, stay in the launder room until eleven eleven thirty, so that when we went up they were hopefully at least

potentially in bed, which half the time they weren't. But once the pandemic it, that escalated to spraying at me with these chemicals. So as I would walk in and out of my bedroom and and would rush to the exit apartment door, and she would just start spraying where I was walking, and when I came in the door, she would start. She would jump off the couch or whatever, grabbed the spray bottle which was right next to the door, and just start spraying behind me. How did that not

qualify as assault? Thank you for asking. How I went to the police six times and final complaints, and each time they were like, can't prove it, Maybe she was just cleaning. We know you're trying to a victor. Goodness that that minimization by those who do have some form of authority in these situations, for example, most notably in this case it was, law enforcement really would depend on

it would vary from situation to situation. I mean, this is a problem since time immemorial, right, Domestic abuse survivors have endured this for for since the beginning of there was these systems in play where well, he's just yelling at you, that's just how it is, or they'll take a personnel, they'll let them walk it off for something like that. So it's a complete minimization. I mean, obviously

you knew better. I've read the critiques that people have had, like why did you let her in and why did you kick her out? And not fully understanding tenant laws and all this other stuff. But you, at a very early stage started doing things like making videos of what you're doing. It's like you were onto it, right, or you wouldn't be doing those things. So that was your acknowledgement of a red flag that you couldn't even act on. And so I think that that piece of oh, Heidi

didn't see it, Heidi saw it. Your hands were literally tied. You know, this is like one of those nightmares where you're trying to scream and the voice isn't coming out of you because you're thinking there's nothing I can do without actually making my situation worse, for example, losing my apartments, all those kinds of things. So your hands were completely tied.

And at some level it sounded like this grift. A person knew this because she had run similar scams, and she it's almost as though she understood the limits of this and was really kind of co opting the system to her advantage. So when you were in the middle of all this, Heidi, how did you say this person is doing this? Because how did you explain this? Once

I found out who she truly was. Before that, as I mentioned earlier, there's this hope that maybe she's just a single mother is just trying to make things, having

some emotional ups and downs. But once I found out there was previous victims criminal activity, knowing that she had pattern and a string of other victims, we almost still feel sorry for the person because there's probably a reason she became that, and again another system of our society's failures of she probably didn't get the help she needed at a young age. Did you ever think of the word narcissistic? Did that did come up early on? Once I met the previous victims, she had a relationship with

and the father, the ex husband. That word came up for sure or by them. It's like the world is hers and this is the truth, and this is the way it is, and this is why it's going to be. So that definitely came up. It's just I can just give it a big sigh right now, because there's so many other examples. The increase of intimidation, which started becoming

more physical as I started to mention. And then when the pandemic hit, I overheard them talking in the hallway when I'm locked in my bedroom, the child saying, oh, thank God for the pandemic, because they had signed a judgment to leave the end of March one and the moratorium hit I think March sevent and the child being away for like almost two months of one summer. I found out that if the other parents not notified after

two months, the other part has legal rights. And then the child came back right before the end of two months, just you mentioned earlier, knowing just exactly where what she could do and under the wire sort of speak. And the judges in the custody court they said, we know she's lying. She's saying she lives in Brooklyn, but we're pretty sure she's lying. She's not living there, and this is before they knew where she was. But yet the

judge couldn't do anything. The A C. S And December says, we want to do a psyche val on both of them, but we can't get it over the finish line to get permission to do that. So it's like she knows exactly what she needs to do, right, And this is something we see quite frequently with antagonistic personalities. It's really quite cunning in that they know exactly the line to

fly under to keep something from becoming criminal. I mean, it is something I've seen repeated in story after story, maybe not quite as extraordinary as this one, but that they'll come just short of it, and any lawyer will not that they're just not going to be able to get this anywhere in front of They're not eve gonna be able to get a warrant, They're not get nothing, and so they can't. They just can't indict, and as a result, the people on the other side of that

are often left wrecked with virtually no recourse. Now, one thing that you had said was that there was a point in your story where you presented in front of a judge. Can you tell us how it came to that point where you were in front of a judge, What led to that and what happened when you were in front of the judge. Well, there was the first time and before the pandemic, where our lawyers got her into the housing corps and I wasn't there. I elected

to stay in the hallway. But mother is said that she said, well, I need a lawyer, and this was pre pandemic. When you weren't guaranteed a lawyer, you had to go and show your financials. So we came back a second time in January and she signed the the stipulation to leave. We negotiated March thirty one, and the previous victim and I were just like flabbergasted because we thought for sure she was going to try to keep

delaying it. I'm sure she would have elated it on that March on somehow before the pandemic, they had left her and the child anti dog, and it was the week after the police finally came to the apartment to tell her to stop spraying me. Finally I got somebody from the presinct just says, uh, they heard the recording and they said, okay, we'll come talk to her. It's like, oh my god. And also that same week, because she

kept saying, oh, I want the mail keys. You know, you're stealing my mail, all these types of things, and I was told by another neighbor who heard that the co op basically said, no, we know you're not supposed to be living there. So I thought, Okay, now they're gone, so maybe those two things maybe okay, getting ready to find a new place for the school and all that.

So they were gone for two and a half weeks, and I'm in like heaven, staying up late, sleeping on the couch and watch the TV, and all the while expecting she could come back in any moment. And I finally said, you know what, I'm going to change the lock, knowing that it's illegal to do a lockout, but I put a note on the or that said due to safety and security reasons, I had to change a lock, which is true because I had no idea. She left and gave the keys to some vagrant or criminal druggie

and said, hey, go hang out in this apartment. She's gonna a welk over and put my lawyer's phone number and then I'm out one night late in July after this two and a half weeks, and I didn't go into the bedroom. I didn't check, but it looked like things that were left in the living room where things like school books and things that I've known in the past with her other victims, she would just leave. And so I told my lawyer, if she calls, you'd feel

her out to see what's going on. Maybe we can get her to agree to leave or something if she's playing coming back. So my lawyer calls and says, oh, no, when when she wants to know, when you give me and I'm like, no, no, no, say we thought she had left, Okay, let me call him back. He calls her back, and then he calls me and says, oh, when I said, we thought maybe you had left. Oh no, no, no, we were just on vacation. This is our home. We're

never planning on leaving. And I remember being on the street and on the phone with my lawyers with my dog in a carriage, and I just broke down. I said no, no, no, no, no, no, nope, nope, nope. I'd rather risk being arrested and fighting her in court rather than fighting her in the apartment because once she gets back in now that I've locked around, god knows what that escalation is going to now go to. And all those months I've been trying to get back into

court to execute our pre pandemic warrant. She got a court case in two days. Wow, we will be right back with this conversation. She almost got me arrested. Luckily, we got in front of a judge and he said, try to see if you can work it out so we could save this taxpayer some money. I'm like, yeah, and my lawyer goes. One of my lawyers I have an also an activist lawyer has been helping. He's a pro tenant lawyer who sees the injustice in this. I've

been very lucky. So my lawyer of record he's like, well, know, you might have to pay her four or five thousand dollars. And I was like, well, first of all, I don't have four or five thousand dollars and nobody I can borrow from anymore, because I've maxed out all my borrowing from family of friends, and and she's not going to ask.

She's not going to go away for that. She's going to ask for at least twenty dollars because that's what the previous relationship victim basically gave her twenty to go away with the idea of giving that for a place to stay for the child and all of that, and she never used. She she scammed that landlord on Bank Street as well. Sojo says, it's okay, we're gonna have we're gonna have lunch and we'll come back see if

you can come to agreement. And at the end of the lunch, at a half hour or whatever, I get this text from my lawyer. This the WTF explanation point question or explanation. But she's like, she asked for dollars, and I said, so we get back. And at that point the judge was seeming like sort of in our favor, like leaning towards us, like, Okay, I see there's some allegations of harassment. Okay, normally with a lockout, what's strictly

a lockout. But I'll have a part beat and we'll hear your case about feeling unsafe, im in a a danger type of thing. And so we said no, no, we couln't agree with it. She asked for twenty five dollars, and the judge goes, well, that's a bit excessive. So again we're thinking, okay, maybe the judge sees what's going on and we can't bring anything. So the court can't see anything about the judgment signing, anything about her criminal past, your open felonies, you know, all these types of things.

Only about the lockouts, only about the lockout. This this is a person who's behaving badly all the time. Yet the judge ended up branding you as the one with the problem. How did the grifter act in court? Very prim and proper demure? You know, again, listen, it's such a big story. First of all, Heidi, how has this affected you? Not? I mean it's very clear the practical issues,

but psychologically, how has this affected you? Well? I must say that I feel very fortunate, blessed to have a strong constitution of sort that if I feel a little bit depressed or whatnot, or a little angry or whatever, I get through it within a day and the next day I'm right back at Okay, what am I going to do? Very fortunate for that. And it's actually been

helpful that vow has been away. I don't have to worry about her because she's the home body, right so I could be out at work, or I could be out pushing on my art the band's pushing the dog around. But Valentine is the home body and she always was, so by her being abroad, it was actually released the extra stress on me. I would have worried about her. She probably would have been jailed because she would have manipulated so that it looked like val attacked her or

the daughter. So we both have been surviving in our own ways. But I still am a hopeful person. I still believe in humanity, I still believe in the goodness of people, but I am now more aware and awake to the injustices. I knew that injustices were out there, but experience it in many different facets because there were some other situations with our previous landlord trying to evict us and just to see how wow, these systems really

don't truly work for law abiding citizens, and that's been disheartening. However, it's stirred me onto I want to make change, and I want to raise awareness number one that this hopefully grifter will not dictimize anybody else in the future, which I know she will unfortunately, but at least in the village or not that I'm trying to disparage her name or anything, but you know, this is what's going on. And a lot of the parents when they first saw

the article, they were like, this can't be the same person. No, this can't be the person. Other people are like, oh you know what I saw that sign. Oh, now it makes sense and now her support system has diminished, which is not necessarily good for the child unfortunately. But I also am hoping that through some try to get a roommate law instituted, legislating it to help protect Lacy's and homeowners who have to rent a room to make ends meet have some rights. So that's what's driving me to

get through this and protect our home. Yeah, we might have to sell it after this because of our lender, but the idea is this is our home. This is our home to make that decision. We shouldn't be forced out. And so just fighting for that and hopefully affecting change somehow. But my mother, she's like, come on, what's going on here and how can this be? You know, this is uncomfortable. I'm like, oh no, mom, I know we'll get there. It's just and people have said again, it's like you've

seen the comments. How can this be? Reading the comments was what made me go back and read the story a second time, thinking did I miss something? But here again we have someone who survived narcissistic abuse and they're questioning the person. I mean, listen, I've heard it all in your case, Heidi, people saying well, you shouldn't have moved into a place where you couldn't swing the monthly payments.

Oh yeah, that's all your problem. Like you're basically being held up as some sort of symbol of fiscal irresponsibility or something, and that you should have done a better job vetting this person. So really, the onus was being viewed on you rather than a person who came in sort of case to joint systematically Grooms, You knew all the loopholes in New York tendency laws, used the child as a way to sort of almost act as a human shield and create sort of work around with law

enforcement who kept enabling her. But you, and to some degree Valentino reviewed as the foolish bad people. How does that feel? Because I know I'm not you, and I was enraged when I read that. So what did that feel like for you? To be honest with you. I haven't read the comments for that reason, so that was very smart. I don't recommend it. No. I had a few people say, oh, look at this name sebody screenshot. I was like, I'm not gonna But then you know a lot of people were like, you know, I think

the troller. They're going to find the negative in every story. But the people who really understand it, they say, how could this be? But they still realize this could happen to me once they really cure it and understand it. And this neighbor put together this go fund meat which was still up and it still helps us. We get

little things here and there, we give updates. But the comments on there have been incredible, those comments I have read, and those people who have who have helped us financially, they were like, oh my god, how can this be? How can this poor child, Oh my god, how can this woman use her own child? How can the systems

have failed? People who have responded all over the nation and even Europe, other countries, England, Germany and saying this is not your fault, this is a narcissist, this is a sociopath, this is blah blah blah every everything else and feeling for us and saying hang in there, we're

cheering you on. Fight the system. And one one comment in particular, this woman can riff was New York or California, but a metropolitan area said this is not your fault, says, I did everything by the book what everybody's telling you you should have done. I vetted the person, I got a background check, I checked the employer reference, I found the bank statements, secured a security deposit three months ahead this or that, and I still was looped. So it

doesn't matter if you yeah, no, it doesn't matter. Yeah. And so those comments have sustained my view of goodness of people in society and humanity that if we stick together, we can get through this. Well, what's so interesting about your situation is that I think any of us can see, especially during the pandemic and the economic times we're in, I think I can empathize with the tenant laws. I

also empathize with the small landlords. But here's the problem in a case like yours, In the cases any case similar to yours, race is this, which is, none of these laws are made to be able to work around narcissistic or psychopathic antagonistic people, right, So when it comes down to it, it's almost like a fishing net. The fishing net is designed to catch a certain kind of fish, but then sometimes the other species sort of sneaks in there.

So yeah, sure that the tendency laws largely protect the people they're supposed to protect. But then you've got somebody who learns how to game the system. And it's one thing to game the system, it's quite another to completely overtake another person's life. And because the people who make the laws, the people who enforce the laws do not understand antagonistic personality style of narcissism, any of it, there's absolutely no way to make any kind of allowances for that.

So then I asked this, Heidi, what's your living situation right now? Where are things at for you? A little over a year ago, I had a friend who I am now staying with, who is older and was having a surgery and middle of pandemic where nobody wanted anybody in their homes, said can you help me out for a couple of days? And I'm helping her, she's helping me. Fortunately, Valentina has her mother's place that she's been trying to

took care of her affairs. As I mentioned, her mother was murdered and keep in her apartment, and so she wanted on her mother's memory by trying to keep the apartment, but having immigrated from the Soviet Union and not having all of her documents, and so why don't you stay there? Because the Grift is going to be out with the warrant before the pandemic rather than send you back to finish.

And then she got stuck there, so she's being she has at least a place to stay there, but of course the war has created and everybody's why is she still stay there? That's crazy? Well, where she going to be if she comes back? I'm stable to stay at this place. My friend who's sleeping on the couch because she can't walk up her loft bed here which I'm sitting right next to. There's no way val could stay here. Also, we don't have money to get another apartment and also

try to keep our apartment. We're behind her rears with the co op trying to manage that. Okay, yeah, she should leave war torn air, but where she gonna go? So that begs the question, who's in your apartment? The grifter and her daughter and so the grifter is still

in your apartment. So we are now in July of two thousand twenty two, and she is still in your apartment three years anniversary, three years and counting, and nothing in a system, a person who has learned how to completely manipulate a system, and in essence, you've both been run out of your house. Valentina is trapped in a country right now that is in a war. You are

staying with a friend. But I think that the blast zone around this is absolutely remarkable that one entitled person that learned how to game a system has resulted in two people who came about their homes struggles, scrimped and saved to have it have an ess been kicked out of their own home because once again it seems that the narcissists always win. It's absolutely remarkable because I got to tell you, I think I was holding out for a happy ending, and you're saying, and we're moving back,

and she's there's still there. And as I mentioned, our last fifteenth court date was May fourth, and we are now two and a half months past that, where the judge is still not ruled whether she will lift the e rep stay and the judge says, you need to be moving out, but my hands are tied because of the e Rep. S Day, and I think she wants to lift it, but it would be a precedent in Manhattan.

And here these legislators are, They're they're trying to get good cause eviction law passed, and all sorts of things that would make it even harder to evict somebody who shouldn't be in a home. And as I went to it earlier, I basically blamed the city. I blamed the state at this point because I forgot to mention my activist lawyer, one would look like we were going to

lose the lockout case. He crafted a federal suit against the judge, had judges in New York and the grifter, even though we knew we wouldn't getting m from the grifter. And that's how the New York Post originally got the story. The first press. We didn't go to the press press came to us because they saw this federal case, and they basically said, our position was my activist lawyer's position was the state and city has confiscated our home without

due process. Essentially, your story is fascinating, hiding I must going to go back for just one moment with something you said when I asked you whether you really thought of the grifters behavior as narcissistic, and you said, well, her ex husband saw it that way, her ex roommates saw it that way. You actually though, we're still thinking about her backstory and how did she get to this place.

But let's face it, she's making choices, and many people have difficult backstories and they don't steal apartments because that's really what she did. Ultimately, the systems have failed. New York has face iled, NYPD has failed, New York housing authorities have failed. But at the end of the day, the perpetrator is the grifter, you know. That's where the responsibility lies. And whatever her backstory is is her back story,

and that doesn't explain away this behavior. Because she's crafty enough to turn it on for the judge, to turn it on when she needs to, so she is very skilled. She knows what right and wrong look like because she turns it on and off at will. So this is not somebody who is wandering around completely confused and psychotic and dazed. Since the person knows exactly what she is doing. She knows exactly what she's doing. This is one of the ultimate cases of injustice, and we know injustice really

can make healing so much harder. I think it's one thing if you sat here and it told me I've moved back into my apartment in the village and it's gonna take a minute to pay it off, and I'd say, Okay, they went through a nighttmare, they're back at their home. Valentine's back. Instead, what you're giving me is Valentina's mother has been murdered. She is in Ukraine, trapped by a

pandemic and then by a war. You can't get into your home, and the court system is doing nothing to help you with your situation, and the grifters still lives in your apartment. There are so many injustices here that I can't even stack them all up. So injustice impedes healing. It's almost it can feel really challenging to heal when there is so much injustice to be able to feel whole again. So how though, how can we support you? How can we support you? Well? Thank you for that.

Having these platforms to to get out the message is great, So, you know, having those continued opportunities people who are out there listening, just hear the story for what it is and not pass judgment and figure out what can I do in that and what can they do in their community.

So they may live in another city, other state in the country, I'm sure they have similar situations there, and get out and listen, vote all those kinds of things, because that will help me knowing that going through having gone through all this is helping to affect change, not only here in New York City but elsewhere. And you can go to my go fund me page. I think it's help help a neighbor in the West Village, something like that. But if you google Nightmare, share the New

York magazine the article that everything will come up. You know, we continue to try to pay off our debt and and just sharing the story that's the biggest thing. And look for the law at least a New York City to be crafted and roommate law and vote for it. Maybe get in your community because especially with the pandemic now, people this is happening all over. People are just staying and taking advantage of the loopholes. Well again, thank you

so much. Like I said, I'm very grateful. Yeah, thank you. So here are my takeaways after my conversation with High Number one self compassion is a key tool in coping with narcissistic abuse and prevent ourselves from falling into self blame. Heidi did a lot of the right things, and systems are limited in how much information we can get, especially if somebody is using different names and the like. Heidi did her due diligence, but due diligence doesn't quite work

with a toxic person. Continuing to beat ourselves up after a narcissistic person takes advantage of us just prolongs the abuse. When we think we are getting to know someone, which is what she thought. Sadly, sometimes they're just manipulating us. Second, don't let the two faces of narcissism trick you. In this story, the grifter was able to show a polite and composed face to a judge, be able to be manipulative and abusive in private when she wanted her way.

The two faces are a signature of narcissism and drive the confusion of these relationships. I'm about to give you a pessimistic viewpoint, but sometimes you need to generalize from the bad moments in a relationship and don't let the good moments leave you feeling that you are reading a toxic situation wrong. Our next takeaway is that sometimes narcissistic

and toxic abuse is bigger than just one relationship. These are sometimes people that take advantage of systems and are enabled by policies and authorities that clearly do not understand the impact of these personality styles. One way to see more people who are harmed by narcissistic abuse get justice is to try to create just systems and how can we do that? That means voting, contacting your representatives, and pushing back on policies that seem designed to enable narcissistic

people rather than protect people from their manipulation and machiavellianism. Finally, move slowly and carefully in any new relationship, especially relationships that could raise potential legal vulnerabilities, like a roommate. Until you get to know someone, keep your cards close to your chest. It may be an abundance of caution, but it may also protect you early in the game and give you enough time to really assess a situation and determine if it's safe or if you need to get out.

Thank you to all of you for asking your questions. We got a question from someone I want to read and answer. Someone writes, I wanted to check if you're planning to explore the topics of abuse of power, cognitive narcissism, spiritual bypassing, and other similar phenomena within the new age or self development community as Unfortunately, those types of practices are displayed by different coaches or spiritual gurus whose profiles

continue to pop up on different social media channels. I happened to fall prey to someone who posed to work as a qualified and well known hypnotherapist. I contacted him after I was gas lit and eventually very badly bullied by a group of women in a new work setting, after I had decided to change jobs and found a new position in a corporation located in the city of London.

Thank you so much for this, because spiritual bypassing, spiritual abuse and some of the abuses that occur at the hands of people who identify as gurus are incredibly important issues. As we explore narcissistic abuse, many people will say, you know, I've not gotten into an intimate relationship or even have a family relationship like this, and yet tremendous harm came to me in one of these so called spiritual spaces.

I promise you we will definitely be addressing many of these topics and upcoming episodes, And as always, I really appreciate you listening to this podcast and appreciate your questions and your feedback. A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valan Jethrow, Ellen Rakaton and Dr Romeney de Vassila. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones,

associate producer Mara Dela Rosa, and consultant Kelly Embling. And finally, thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnaghy and Calvin Bailiff. Two