Healing from Infidelity and Narcissistic Abuse w/ Kiersten Hathcock

The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I Heart Media, or their employees. You know, I'm listening to him and he's saying, I have I found you finally. I have been looking everywhere for you, all around the world, and I finally found you. And I'm gonna tell the other woman that I found you, and she's going to

be so happy for me. I again, red flags were not going off, which is a sign of where I was emotionally and who was driving the bus in my psyche. Sometimes people have a life that for a while seems all figured out along marriage, children, and then over time the usual stuff may come up in a marriage, financial and employment woes, stress, and with more time what a

person thinks is working well finally shows its cracks. Kirsten hathcock story is a unique journey through reinventing herself and starting a business in which she had no background, being on the cusp of a major deal, and then losing it and realizing some things about her childhood that were transformative. Into the middle of this storm came something that swept

her away and changed her life forever. Kirsten's story had numerous ups and downs that we're not even be able to begin to get into here, and that are spelled out in her book Little Voices. But today we're going to talk about her marriage and what happened. A reminder that toxic relationships can come up when we least expect them. Kirsten, welcome. It is so nice to have you here on Navigating Narcissism. I'm very very happy to see you here to have

the opportunity to talk because I read your book. So your book was really I mean again to anyone listening, if you're looking for a book with twists and turns, this is your book is called Little Voices, and you can get more information on that obviously in the show notes. Again, so many twists and turns, and because it's so complicated, I'd say to everyone, if you want to read the whole story, go read the book. You need to get her book. We're going to take on a piece of

it that's most relevant to the story. Let's start with you. Your family, your marriage. Tell us about you and your relationship with your husband, Scott in those early days. So I am. I just turned forty nine, so I'm out in my age. I grew up in Ohio. My dad's a football coach, my mom's a teacher. I grew up in a very grounded family and just you know, a grounded environment, very Ohio, and I had pretty much this idyllic childhood, or so I thought. Went off to college,

ended up actually meeting my husband after college. We met in a bar, which is really classy right in Charlotte, North Carolina, and we hit it off and ended up getting engaged after four months. I believe I was twenty three when we got married. He was twenty five. We were what I would definitely feel was happily married for

eighteen years. And at that eighteen year mark, several things happened. One, I started to recover memories of childhood sexual abuse that I endured as a kid, and I didn't even necessarily believe that that was a thing that I could recover, But there was a lot of proof that led me to understand that this indeed happened to me when I was between ages of three and six. So that eighteen year mark in our marriage and then that piece of

information coming to a head, it changed things. It changed things for me, And I think, you know, I've always been a people pleaser. I've always been. I think it's pretty common for childhood abuse survivors to please because we're programmed to do that. And I think it was the first time in my life where I really kind of sat down and went, you know what, this isn't all roses. I don't feel right about everything. And that was in two thousand fourteen, which was our eighteen year anniversary. So

happy eighteen years, yeah, yeah, happy. And then you were having experiences within yourself and things inside you were changing. How was that unfolding in the marriage, because it sounds like that was then leading to some more difficult times in your marriage. Absolutely, like I said, I was a pleaser. So for most of our Mayor Scott, who was a wonderful man, absolutely adore him, but you know, he would say, hey, let's eat outside, and I would not think do I

want to eat outside? I would just say sure, absolutely. That was my pet answer for everything. So at that point, I think what what it was most interesting is I'm dealing with this, you know, memory of childhood sexual abuse and kind of dealing with healing and going to therapy

and seeing you know, psychologists and in different therapists. But I'm also I'm also kind of not feeling like I'm myself anymore, because when you go into that and you're you're kind of looking back and saying, well, who am I really? I didn't even remember that, Like what what about my life? Am I also still now missing? And there it was interesting because I noticed that I started to get kind of irritated with my husband. Things just didn't feel right anymore. I was tired of being the pleaser.

I was tired of feeling like I was carrying the weight of the relationship. We had been through a lot of layoffs, a lot of financial ups and downs, and because I'm a doer, a fixer, I would just jump right in and try and fix, to the point where I even built a furniture company out of our garage that ended up on shirt take. So yeah, you know that's the level at which I fixed things. So you started that furniture business. Was that in response to an

actual financial need within your family? Yes, it was absolutely so. We had moved around a lot because my husband and I were both in the entertainment side, but we were on the advertising side and the marketing side, and in order to move up you typically had to move to another city. But we're also talking about two thousand and eight, two thousand and four tough times. Well, it was not Scott's fault that we went through so many layoffs on

his side. I was still the one sort of picking things up on my end to say, Okay, we need to pay the gas bill, how can I figure out how to do this? And I had left my job to stay home with the kids, and I was doing marketing work. I was always at work from home mom, but I had to step it up in a bigger way. So you can see how much of a fixer I was throughout. Can I ask you, did you have a background in carpentry? What did that look like? I was building it? And no, I do not have a background

in carpentry. Or design. I didn't even have any money to do this, but I had my intuition and for some reason, I was very much in tune with that quiet little voice inside of me. And everyone else around me said, you're crazy, Like why do you want to build Why do you think you can build kids furniture? Well, I'm gonna try. And that's exactly what I did, and I did not expect it to take off the way that it did. I needed to bring in more income than what I was actually bringing in at the time

while staying home with the kids. And that was the answer for me, was to build furniture in our garage. I don't want to go and found a tangent here, and I have to tell you I had to listeners. I had sort of the glimpse in because I've already read her book to read more about this. But it is such an interesting part of your story, right because it would be you know, to not even like it was like cupcakes out of your kitchen, which I must

of us gonna follow a recipe. This was furniture, right, and I I mean so this concept of being a fixer to not lost on me in some ways. Going how to use tools as a form of fixing too, but that you would take on something. Let's face it, Kirsten, there's something almost masculinized about furniture building. We don't think of women as doing it, though they're incredibly skilled, you know, wood workers out there of all genders, but it's not our sort of our our kind of stereotypical vision of it.

And here you were going to your garage. Not only it's not like you're making furniture for the house to save money. You're making it that it was good enough to sell. And then it went to the next level, which I think would be I'm gonna say quirky, but that's not meant to minimize it, because it's just to me,

it's like what you did, what was your furniture? So the furniture star it's selling in l a if if somebody must to see prototype of it and said, I've seen pictures of it, I get why people wanted to buy it. But still a lot of people make things in their garage and even when they are good, they don't sell them. They don't sell them right exactly. But then you took it to this whole new level and can you sort of let people know what that is and how that all happened, because that was like a

big thing. It was a big thing. Yes, Um, So I spent pretty much every day covered and sawdust in and out of the garage all day long, shuttling kids back and forth to school. And I did that for about three years prior to going on Chark Tank. And it was during that time period where you know, I built the first one and it actually resembled my grandmother's

old split top record player. And so all of the sudden bloggers out of New York and different design areas of the world started saying, Hey, there's a mom in a garage and Burbank, California, and she's making these things. And one of them even ended up in an international design book. So you know, I felt like they're some validation, yes, in the design aspect of you know, what I was doing. You know, I think I was in such a fight or flight state because I was in fear when I

was doing it. So I just had to keep going and keep growing it. So I went on Shark Tank in two thousand and ten is when I actually filmed, and it aired in two thousand and eleven, and I ended up with two offers and the second offer with Robert. Actually he was the second offer, Mr Wonderful. If you ever watched the show, he's the one who offered first, and then Robert Herschebek offered after him, and his offer was better, so I took it. I ended up not

getting that deal. After we stopped filming, he basically said, I think you're still a little bit too small. Why don't you come back in a year or so. And you know, that was devastating because we were really counting on that. We were at a point where Scott had lost his job again and we needed to make that happen. And so I cried, honestly, sat down and I cried in my kitchen and then I just thought, you know what,

I can do this? Yeah, so I think, you know, growing up in the Midwest and having the parents I have, who are just amazing people, they taught me to work hard. They taught me to just keep going and you know, believe in myself. And I did believe in myself, especially at that point. So about a year later I ended

up getting an actual deal. An Angel investor came to me because he watched the episode on Hulu, and he said, did that deal go through, and I told him it didn't, and he offered more money and I gave away less equity. So I haven't really Yeah, I have a great ending to that story. Okay, so a lot of things were happening in your marriage. I'm gonna go back now, I'm going to switch gears again. A lot of things are

happening in your marriage. Eighteen years, kids, but job loss on and off, which was the story of a lot of folks at that time too. It was a tough time and it still is, and that's a strain on the marriage. You having your own sort of psychological revelations in yourself, and you're also building this business, which is putting you in a position of going from the parent who was at home caring for kids to becoming a primary breadwinner. Right. That's a lot of trance, it is.

It's a lot. When I started to actually go into the industry, that's when things got really interesting. I was being courted by a company called Stanley Furniture, and they said, you know what, we love what you're doing, and we want to hire you on as a spokesperson, and we'd like to also take on your line and will expand it into you know, all kinds of different items for kids.

So they offered me a job. They offered me the spokesperson job, and then I was about to sign the licensing deal, which we were projecting five million in sales at that point, right, so you know, I really am feeling like, oh my gosh, finally, yeah, you know, and we're gonna We're gonna get to this point. And I was supposed to fly down to high Point, North Carolina, which is where all of the big trade show action

goes on in the furniture industry. So I fly in and the plane stops, and I turned my phone on and it's just ding ding ding ding ding, and I'm seeing multiple messages from Scott and so naturally I got worried, thinking, maybe, you know, something had happened with ourids or whatnot. And when I finally got him, he said, did you look at the press release that just came out? No, no,

I'm here. You know, I'm working for Stanley. I'm actually gonna be meeting with h G t V and all of these different people while I'm here at this trade show. He said, curious, I'm so sorry. They shut down they shut down their youth division. So I literally get off the plane and I lose my job. I lose my licensing deal. My husband had already lost his job at that point, and he had taken a job one of the only jobs that we could get in Flagstaff, Arizona.

At that time, you know, he was making a quarter of what he had made before. So it wasn't just oh my gosh, I can't believe this failed. Now I have to go find something else. It was I don't know how we're going to eat next. And then you know, you couple that with everything that was already kind of you know, going on within the marriage and me sort of realizing there was a lot of codependency. I felt

like I was always carrying the world. And I end up at high point and friends gathered around me, and one of those friends happened to be this very charismatic man by the name of Tony, and Tony was a good friend of two of my friends, and he said, you know what, Kirsten, I'm going to help you. I think what you were doing is amazing. He just propped me up, and that's what I needed. So in that moment you said that your friends surrounded you. These were

friends like you knew, like from the furniture industry. So when you were traveling to high Point, you had already been working with Stanley, like they had been producing your furniture. They had had a children's furniture division, so that was you were the spokesperson, like that was already happening. And then you take this flight. This press release comes out coincidentally while you're on the flight. You get off the plane having already worked with stan So Stanley chooses not

to tell you this before putting out a press release. Yes, because they said that they're publicly traded, so they couldn't give away that. And for nation to me, I was hired. I had a salary position as a spokesperson. The only thing that they wanted me to do with regards to the licensing deal was to get there and then sign the deal. And I think it had taken eight months to get this thing where I was about to sign it. And so yeah, you know, I'm gonna just say something

on the decide because it's intriging. I never even thought about this in your story, but when you're me, you see the narcissistic stuff everywhere. There's something very bit tre REIALI about you know, for eight months you were strung along. They knew this was happening eight months ago. You don't just close a division of a publicly traded company overnight. Maybe they knew three months before, we don't know, but this was not something they learned in twenty four hours.

And they strung you along, and you were going there ostensibly to sign something. They knew that, and nothing was said. You know, it's interesting just from a straight if you will, business workplace, corporate narcissistic peace. It has that flare as though it was only their interest. And here is and this is why I think so many people get harmed by the kind of unempathic business policies that are out there that what might seem like nothing to them. We're

closing a division, there won't be the licensing deal. Is a family's financial future, is a family's dinner on the table? That right there, to me is interesting how this lack of empathy sneaks up in all these different parts of our lives and we don't even frame it as such. So you now get to high point, you're devastating, You're in an absolutely vulnerable position. You see, friends, that's comforting

this person. Tony comes in, who is in this vulnerable moment, saying we can figure this out, we can fix this. That must have felt very empowering, emboldening and comforting at exactly that point in your life to hear that, Yeah, it was. It was just what I needed. And I had met him prior, you know, when I was starting to get to know him. It was it was all virtual. I knew these two women that were friends of mine,

and I really liked them a lot. I was, you know, I had gotten to know them over the last six months. One of them worked with me at Stanley and they said, Oh, you're gonna love this guy. He's great. We have to introduce you when you come down to high Point. So I had actually already met him because we connected on Facebook and and he loved my designs and he wanted to actually partner with me, maybe do another kid's line. So he absolutely swooped in and said all the right things.

And in a moment where I'm just crumbling, I really felt like everything was pulled out, you know, from beneath me. So what happened then? So I'm at high Point. I'm supposed to be there for five days I'm at high point. I'm shocked because I'm going about my business. I'm meeting with other people. I knew my job was to day there and just try and get another deal and try and get another job. I could have gone back home, which was offered to me, and I said, no, I

have no choice. I need to be here. So I was taking meetings. I was running around in between Tony and my other two girlfriends were you know, hey, let's let's have a drink tonight. I know you probably you know you could use it. Let's have dinner. Tony was asking me to have dinner with him as well on his own. And what was interesting about that is I recognized it immediately as feeling and appropriate. I had had multiple dinners and business lunches with a lot of executives

over the years. That was nothing new. But there was something about the way he asked to have dinner with me. So I actually said no. I said I would meet him, you know, over in the showroom. And then the next night the group of us, all of us were going out for dinner. He surprised me, in addition to being very flattering and in trying to be like, hey, I'll help you, however I can. He also confessed to me that he had a crush on me, but it wasn't

It wasn't in those terms. He literally said, I just think you were the most precious soul, and I love all the volunteer work you do on the side, I love everything about you. Literally said, I'm going to be over here loving you from the side, and I know that this my You know, if this is uncomfortable, I will not go to dinner with the group. And again pleas er Kirson. Oh no, it's not uncomfortable at all. No, no, no, not at all, not at all. Also, that felt good.

It was the antithesis of what I was dealing with, you know, in my real life. So it was interesting because he came on full court press. There were a lot of back and forth. He was texting me to look beautiful. I wish I could hold your hand, things that you don't say in a normal relationship or normal friendship.

But I was not in my right mind. I was It was a perfect storm of all of this stuff that I had dealt with in childhood, and then all of the things that had been bubbling up in the marriage coming together at one point and I just fell head over heels in love with head over heels. What's so interesting about what you're saying about Tony is that charming, charismatic? Your friends knew him. Did you know you were married? Yeah? He said, listen, I know I have no shot. I

have no shot, So he knows you're married. He does this combination of asking me to dinner. You're beautiful. I have a crush on you, but I understand if you don't want me to come. So that mishmash is confusing. But like you said, you're also acknowledging this was a vulnerable, confusing time for you. Unpacked that for us, you fell head over heels in love. Can you sort of lay that out in terms of the time frame over which that happened, what that looked like, Where did it all

happen so we can understand that. So it happened faster than anything should happen. I will say that, and I know that's a marker for narcissistic abuse. Things happened very very quickly. It happened over a literally one week time period, and I think I had it was almost like a break, you know, almost a mental break that I had where I was so tired of always trying to fix everything for everyone. And it was really the first time in my life where I just said, you know what, I

don't care. This feels good and I I mean, I was head to toe chills when I met him. We felt like we'd known each other forever. He's using soul mate language, and it didn't take much, you know, because the minute he looks at me and he says, are you happy? And nobody'd ever really asked me that, And what could I say, as I'm feeling drawn to him, Well, no, I'm actually not happy in my marriage right now or

in my life. And so I ended up leaving about seven days later from that market, and I kept pushing my flight back. So then my husband, of course is saying are you okay? Is everything okay? And at one point he's highly in two of it as well, and at one point he said, are you having an affair? And I felt horrible, absolutely horrible. I don't want to hurt him, love him to pieces, you know, and I thought I'll deal with it when I get back. Right now, I just want to live in the high of this

feels like a drug. But I felt like I was a teenager almost. It was really interesting. I was, you know, sixteen, and I was out with the Rebel, and that's that's where I was, you know, in my mind and my body. You know, He's crying as we're leaving, leaving each other, and he was heading back home, and I'm in tears, and you know, am I ever going to see him again? And oh my god, how do I how I can't let that feeling go? How am I going to do this?

So I got back on that plane and I flew home, and for the first week I just tried to act like nothing happened and he was just a business acquaintance if I mentioned his name, But that's also not who I am. I have always been very transparent when I feel like I need to be, you know, like that. I did not want to do this to Scott, so I said, finally to him, can we talk? I want out. I'm I'm done, and you're right. I did have an affair.

So within two weeks of knowing Tony, I fell head over heels and then left basically said to my husband, I want out. My session with Kirsten will continue after this break, Okay, I want to understand the time frame here, fly to high Point, to trade show land, get the terrible news, meet with friends, meet Tony. And in this next week, it goes from him telling you you're beautiful, join me for dinner. You even say no, but then

you finally do spend more time with him. And in a one week period, this infatuation developed for you, right, and you fell in love. And then you push off your flight, you go back to home, you go back to flag Staff, and you must have stayed in touch with Tony. Yes that whole week, right, Yes, absolutely, that whole week. But you know, now that I was back in Flagstaff, I'm dealing with real life stuff again, the fact that I had lost my job. You know, what are we gonna do? So I was in that fix

it mode again. Yet I was also talking to him and texting him quite a bit, and he was, you know, he was asking like, when are you going to talk to him? When are you going to tell him? He was telling me that, you know, he and his wife they would be divorced, but they couldn't afford it, so they're just living together for the kids. You know, he was talking about another woman that he had even fallen in love with, who was overseas, and it's crazy to

me that none of that was a red flag. At the moment, you know, I'm listening to him and he's saying, I found you finally. I have been looking everywhere for you, all around the world, and I finally found you. And I'm going to tell the other woman that I found you, and she's going to be so happy for me. Again. No, like red flags were not going off, which is a sign of where I was emotionally and who was driving the bus in my psyche right, because these were beyond

red flags. This is like somebody poured ten gallons of red paint. Yes, I have marched a long time ago. Yes, So may I ask how did your husband react? He was so upset, obviously, you know, so upset, so surprised. From the outside, for eighteen years, people would say, you guys are such a great couple. Gosh, you're just the

perfect couple. I wish we could be like you. But really what was happening behind the scenes is you know, I was pleasing all the time, and I was feeling really suffocated because Scott just felt like his world was complete if it was just me, So not only am I you know, fixing things on all fronts and in the garage and fixing financials. But I'm also his everything.

And so what was interesting about it when I came back the feeling I had, I didn't want to lose the feeling I had with Tony, but I also had this feeling of just please let me go, Please let me go, just just let me go, like I needed to just run. So you tell Scott you're feeling done? And what may I ask just what happened at that point? Did you move out? Did you know? I think we couldn't afford to, And I think he was just kind of like, what, oh my, Like what do you talk?

Because we get a long We know, we really didn't fight. There was a lot of respect between both of us still, and I really truly had so much love for him, like I wanted him to find someone like I had. That was where my head was at that point. We couldn't do anything financially, so we just lived in the same house. I ended up moving into the guest room. And we were also advised by therapists not to tell our kids, who were middle school in high school, not to talk to them yet, you know, give it six

months at least, which was good advice. So I just said, you know, my backs hurting or you know, we just kind of made things up because we never fought. The kids really didn't see anything different, you know, they didn't see us hugging or anything like that, really, but they just didn't see anything different. But at this point, Scott knows how you feel, and so are you now maintaining this relationship with Tony even though you're living in the

same house. Scott knows that you're sort of mentally out. You've told him like, I'm not in this with you anymore, but we're living in the same house. Now at this point, are you maintaining this relationship with Tony and what does that look like? Yes? But it was all virtual and so he was on the other side of the country. I was out here out west. He and I talked constantly, which was not something I was used to in my life.

I was not used to constantly checking in with someone and constantly texting, which looking back now, of course that's a big red flag as well, but that's exactly what he wanted. So he was checking in on me constantly. I was checking on him. Scott was starting to date other people, just to sort of move forward, you know, I think he I think maybe around the four month mark.

Tony and I also had to travel together because not only was he helping me rebuild MyD mom, but he was also working on building his line of furniture, and so we took those opportunities to travel to different cities, you know, whether it was a trade show or just meetings in general. So we did have time together, but most of our relationship was long distance. Okay, So how did the relationship unfold? So you had a lot of long distance, a lot of texting every so often, this

travel for business. So what happened? So from the time I met him to the four month mark, he was absolutely the perfect man. If I hold you know, could have just written up who I thought I would be with in my life, it would be him. Until we're at a trade show and he says, here, do you know you have a lot of eye contact with men? Do you notice that, like as we're walking down the halls. I mean, I'm just I'm just noticing it. I know.

I love that you're so hash. I just love that you're so welcoming of people and so warm, and but I do know that about yourself, and I grew up in a household where we do look at you know, I can take constructive criticism and I can go, huh, maybe I do and I have no idea. Maybe I am making Google eyes and I have no idea I'm doing it. So I sort of just immediately went in

and started looking at myself. But he wouldn't let it go, and any time we would talk about it and I would try and defend myself, it would turn into a two hour fight. And I was not used to that. I was like, my head was spinning around, like I don't even know why this is a thing, Like I don't know why, A, you're feeling insecure about this, but B I look people in the eye because that's how I was raised. That's what you do. It's a respect thing. And it would just it would just melt into chaos.

And I started to very quickly realize that the only way to fix it was to apologize. And so he was a very effectively grooming me by making that that how we operated, and I just fell, you know, I fell right into that hole. In toxic relationships, jealousy is a constant feature, however, and Kirsten story instead of him rendering himself vulnerable and sharing his own insecurities, he instead

pathologizes her and her eye contact. In other relationships, it may be criticisms about people who smiled at other people or comments about how the person dresses. While jealousy is a universal human emotion, gas lighting and control are not normal and over time qualify as abuse. This is one example him sort of you're making eye contact. It's isolation. I mean, that's what that is, right, So he's making

that comment. It would turn into chaos. You would apologize and probably, I'm guessing stop making eye contact with anyone. Either Was this the only example or were there other patterns of behavior that we're starting to make you doubt the quality of the relationship with Tony. Yes, there were many, but I didn't want to believe it, and I was still you know, I think I was still so addicted to what the rush of what I had been feeling when I was around him and with him. He was

constantly monitoring who was writing to me on Facebook. Oh, I saw this guy liked your picture. Who is he? Has he written to you privately? And that would always end up in a fight. Even if I said, oh, that's my friend from high school. He's funny. Yeah, he was like, oh, I didn't know you left Scott, and man, that would be yeah, you should have told me first, you know, kind of as a joke, this man I hadn't seen in twenty five years. And then he would

hang up on me. You know. It was a lot of hanging up, and then I'm noticing that I'm calling him back for more, and then I'm starting to shame myself. Oh my god, who wants to be yelled at like this? Like why am I calling him back? I don't even understand why I'm doing that. I would not put up with this, you know, at the lumber yard. I would not put up with this in any other part of my life because I was raised to be a very strong woman with feminist ideals and I don't take that.

Yet I was taking it, and not not only was I taking it, I was actually just rolling over and saying, Okay, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. So I felt like, oh my gosh, I'm just doing everything I can that then get back to that moment of the high Yet for most of the time, I you know, three quarters of the time, we were in that state where he was either starting to devalue me or it was just full on chaos. How many months was the relationship like this?

I mean, how many months this relationship last? I guess question three years? Three years like this? Three years? That's a lot of stress. That's a lot during those three years? Were you always together? I mean like you just kept putting okay? So what happened? That was the other piece? You know, I we ended up breaking up I think around seven times, which you know, I know from writing my book is an average that it takes for someone

to get out of an abusive relationship. I just kept getting pulled back in and pulled back in, and I kept feeling, first of all, I kept shaming myself because I kept feeling like I'm not strong enough. Why am I not strong enough? I don't understand this. I would never take this kind of abuse from anyone else. He even acted like he was going to run over me. At one point, domestic violence calls. Cops were coming to

our door asking are you okay? Because the neighbors were worried that he was going to, you know, get physical with me, and I could even feel it was going that way, but I just kept giving him more leeway, and eventually I couldn't take it anymore. I had to have that drug again. You know, I had to be in contact with him, even even in the hard times. I think I was getting that hit, you know, of of dopamine and serotonin, and I didn't know that that was a thing. So I'm feeling out of control. I'm

shaming myself. I'm also like, well, I made my bed, I'm going to have to lie in it. This is what I did. I did this to myself. So it was really all of that was coming down on me. The time period where we finally, you know, got to that point because he was reeling me back in. It was after the seventh time we're talking three years later, he was moved back east. He had been working out

west for a little while. He was moved back east, which was a gift, and in that you know, he was still doing all the same stuff that he would normally do and try and reel me back in. But at this point, you know, he's saying, I'm waiting for you, if only you'll grow up. He was a little older than me, so he's also saying, you know, I think this is your maturity level. I'm waiting for you, but it's your work to do so. Again, I'm feeling very ashamed out of nowhere. One day he's actually sending me

pictures and saying, I'm waiting for you. I love you so much. I get a ding on my computer and it's a woman from back East and she said, I don't know if I should be reaching out to you or not, but I I found you basically because I had been vocal about one of our our fights and our relationship. I finally got to that point, and so I had written about it on my blog and she said, I found you. And I was with him last month

and I said, wait, um with him? With him? With him? Yeah, us, we were together and he wooed me and he used these songs and he said these things, and it was all exactly the same. I couldn't believe it. And it was at that point that I really truly felt like someone took the heroin needle out of my arm, because I needed to have this in front of me. And so I, being, you know, someone who relies on empirical research and I'm very data driven, I said, would you

mind sharing with me? You know, your match dot com communication and so she said, yeah, well, absolutely so. She sent screenshots and I couldn't believe it. What I was reading was was the stuff of a predator. Do you felt like he did to her exactly what he did

to you? Yes, yes, absolutely. It's an interesting question to me because the things he had done during the relationship the three years you were together, were unforgivable, you know, the name calling, the isolation, on and on and on, and all perfectly good reasons to end of relation and chip, right, what was it about this new person rolling up? You know, met him match dot com, so on and so forth. As you you put it, it's the heroine needle coming out of the arm. What was it about this? Why

was it this that finally opened your eyes? And not the three years of really what was abuse? Right? Absolutely so, I feel very strongly two things collided here. One it was proof that what he was saying to me was not true, because I think, you know, in the beginning, I was very much groomed to believe he was a good guy, to believe what he was saying, and he was really really convincing, and my entire life I pretty much just took people at face value in a way.

What Kirsen is talking about here is something that actually turns the gas light off. She had enough red flags to literally paint the town red. But sometimes it takes something from the outside, a piece of information that tells us that our intuition was right, that there is not something wrong with us, that we did see something. Unfortunately, by the time something like this turns up so much harm may have occurred. If you say you're going to do something, you do it. That is how I was raised.

That is my Midwestern you know value, and that's what I extended to him as well. And this was different. This was a full on you know, I am absolutely having an affair on this side, and I'm not just waiting for you, Kirsten. I actually have multiple women. The other piece of it, I believe was at the time, and I know we've talked about how my story is

is a little even more complicated. At the time, you know, my intuitive gifts lend to working with cops, and I was actually working on a few cases that involved children who had been killed by predators, pedophiles, and so I would really information that I would hear and see. So my intuition was very strong, and it was at that moment that I went, oh my god, this is what this? Oh my god. We okay. So I'm a childhood sexual

abuse survivor. I'm working with cops on cases that involve kids have been killed by predators pedophiles, and now I've fallen them. I fell in love with a predator? Are you kidding me? Like the full it was the full circle realization that just almost knocked the wind out of me. It's a lot. There's that moment in these relationships. The statistic is that you know, people will attempt to leave an abusive relationship seven times on average before they go.

Some people it's fifteen, some people it's two. And some people get killed before they can actually finally leave. And so that you know that number seven has its power in the sense of what it speaks to is that cycle of being devalued, discarded, hoovered, and the hoover ing is the sucking back end the things that they know that they can say to you to get you back in. And that's going to be different for everyone. What kind

of thing needs to be said? Does a play off, for example, and you're being a fixer some in some cases it plays on empathy, In some cases it plays on guilt. It's a different hoovering game that's sucking back in based on every relationship. When you were with Tony, when you were in that three year relationship, did the two of you talk about a future like a marriage and the whole thing together? You did, Yes, we did. And that was from day one. That was day one,

you know. He was saying, I want to come out to you know, Flagstaff, and we'll have a house that's big enough for all of our kids. And we were just plodding forward like this is we found each other. Thank goodness, we found each other and we're soul mates and this is what we're gonna do. And what I also thought was interesting is about a year and a half in that would shift and then I would be blamed for well, why wouldn't you want to come to the East coast? Because I said to him, like, my

kids are my kids are? I cannot leave the West. I cannot leave. I can travel, but I cannot leave in the minute there was an opportunity on the business front to be closer to a manufacturer than He used that and said to me, well, I can't believe I would do this for you, but you wouldn't do that for me. Yeah. Yeah, that's a classic manipulation And the only thing I can say, you know, my intuition was definitely working during the you know that time period, but

it was working in a different way. And I think because my head couldn't hear and it couldn't wrap itself around what was happening to me, and my heart certainly couldn't as well. My physical intuition was on fire. So what I also started to notice is that in that moment where he's trying to get me to come and live part time across the country, I'm starting to have

kick in the gut feelings. I'm starting to get a vibration on my right hip that said don't do this, don't do this, don't do this, and that that was thank goodness for that, because innately I knew if I got over there, I was going to be isolate did and I would have no money to get back. And we're talking about my kids. What you're describing, the confusion,

the knowing, the not knowing, hard head body. I know a lot of people feel like I there was something wrong with me, and I think that what we've learned now about what narcissistic abuse and antagonistic abuse looks like is there's actually nothing wrong with you because there are Like you said, you were giving the ratio of seventy percent of the time. It was this chaos that meant

at the time it was actually good. And when things are sometimes good and good in a way that's exactly the way we want them to be good, that becomes like a magic eraser. And even though that stuff doesn't get forgotten, you could buy another two weeks, one month, three months out of that. And this is the paradox of anyone who's surviving these relationships. If the person was behaving like seven every day, most people would burn out

on this. If they were behaving like this in front of other people, other people would take you aside and say, are you okay that ability to be charming and charismatic in front of the right people, in front of your friends. I mean, after all, he won over those mutual friends you had thought he was terrific, And then give you what you need and exactly the moment you need. It is enough to keep you in the game. And so really you're sort of living this relationship weeks months at

a time. But I mean the fact of the matter is cres In. Some people, these weeks, months at a time can add up to thirty, forty fifty year relationships. So when we come back, I really want to talk about the end of your relationship with Tony, how that all ended, how you got yourself out of it. Before I get to that, I mean to ask you a question, Creson. I know it's going to be difficult, and so take a minute if you don't want to answer, to understand it.

But it was something that struck me when I read the book. People listening to this podcast, they're gonna hear you were you were unfaithful. Okay, you were unfaithful, And a lot of folks will listen to this present company, included, have been significantly betrayed in relationships, and there's often this sense of, well, Kirsten, you did the bad thing. You you were unfaithful, and we're seeing as the story is rolling out. It's complicated, but it's devastating to have that

happened to you. You You start, you've learned this now we see in the relationship with Tony had happened to you? What did it feel like? I think that my bigger question to you then, is what did it feel like to share in something as public as a book that you betrayed your husband? You know, it was a one week affair, but people are going to say, you know, that's a matter of semantics. Whether someone chees for a week, a day or twenty years, you still betrayed the trust

of someone who trusted you. What did it feel to take that part of your story and share it not just a therapist office o with a close friend, but with the entire world. Can you share that with us? Because like, I know, I know some listeners are imagining I'm sort of looking a little sideways at this podcast saying she did do this, and they might even be taking a karmic stance on this, you know, I mean, I'm being I'm being brutally honest. So what did if

you like to share this with the world? And also for Scott, what did it feel like? It was? It was very scary to be honest with you, and I knew, you know, I I know I will get backlash for it. I also know that I'm not alone. And what was interesting when I did come out because the thing that I felt when I was finally kind of recovering myself again. After I had gotten out and understood really who I had been with for three years. All I knew is that in order to move forward, I just had to

completely come clean. I have to just air it all out there, and that was something that was hard to do. I remember tearing up because I love Scott, I love our kids. I was not looking to get out of my marriage. When I'm at Tony. I knew that there were some things that were wrong with it, and it's just not in my nature. So I remember there were tears falling when I actually published it. I published a blog post that was called I had an Affair. I was like, I just have to I just have to

do this now. Of course, Tony on his side is slandering me horribly in the industry, and so I thought, well, I have nothing to lose. I need to do this. So I did. So many people came forward, so many people, and it wasn't you know, just the women that came forward that had been in relationships with Tony all over the world. It was women who in men who have said I had an affair. This is what I did too, And I'm so ashamed, and I don't you know, I'm never going to come out and talk about it, but

thank you for talking about it. And then on Scott's end, you know, thank god he is. I mean, I just absolutely adore him. We've been back together since two thousands seventeen, which is that's the best part of the book. It's a love story. I'm really lucky and that he is who he is. And you know, I we look at those three years as you know, obviously I was healing from the childhood wounds, right, so I you know, I had a chance to stand up to abuse that I

couldn't stand up to as a kid. Because Tony pretty much replicated my uncle, like they're kind of the same person, so he hadn't under Scott had an understanding of what was happening there. He was still hurt and he didn't want to go through it and he didn't want to see me go through it. But he took a different road and instead of, you know, what we do in society most of the time is say, well, she's bad and he's good, and we had a lot of friends

do that. I lost a lot of friends instead of, Wow, what happened in that first eighteen years of that marriage. You know, and looking at, well, when these types of things happen, unless you're dealing with a serial while narcissist, basically, you know, somebody's having multiple affairs. There's something going on in that marriage, and that's you know, that was the thing that he understood. So he took it and he internalized it and said, you know, during those three years,

he started reading a lot of books. He started, you know, looking internally at oh my gosh, okay, how can I be a better person? How could I be a better husband, How can I be a better dad? Oh my gosh my, you know, I've put so much on Kirsten and started to realize that. He openly talks about how he finally realized he had like Peter Pan syndrome. So I was running around pleasing and fixing everything while he was just running around having fun, you know and obviously very caring person,

great dad, all of that. But he grew up and he admits that, and I think that's the key. You know, we both we had these conversations after we got back together and we would just lay there and he would tell me, oh, yeah, I had this one date. It was crazy and you know, like this holy cow and it's just so weird to be with other people after, you know, we've been together for so long, and then and I would slowly reveal the depth of the abuse because I hit a lot of that from him too.

You know, he knew I was being abused, but he had no idea the depth of it. And so you know, I think, and just bearing both of us, bearing our souls, we could we could come back together even stronger because of it. Thank you for sharing that and answering that, because I know that that's a tough question, and I really appreciate you sort of giving context to that. We

will be right back with this conversation with Kirston. So, Kirsten, it's three years of a very toxic relationship and made i'm sure much harder by having to co parent your children. I'd imagine by now you've obviously during the relationship you moved out from Scott so you had your own place. But it's not it's not easy to co parent, even with a healthy, healthy co parent, which is you sounds

like you had in Scott. Yes, you're in this abusive, toxic relationship, breaking up, making up, long distance, all this stuff. Three years in you find out that there have been other women in one in particular, reaches out to you, shares with you what happened on match dot com, and that feels like the end to you, the end of the rush, as it were, what happens at that point

three years in when you decide, yeah, I'm done. So at that point, you know, I felt like I was starting to get Kirsten back, and thankfully Scott was there with me, like I've got you, I'll hold your hand. He wasn't pushed me. There was no expectation of us getting back together at that point, but he was there

as a friend. And I had a lot of people that were surrounding me, and folks who were really scared for me because they thought, you know, I was going to die and I would have died in that relationship, whether it be by his hand or my own. I had lost so much weight. I was smoking two packs of cigarettes just to deal with all of with all of the stress, and my hair was falling out. I was having heart issues. I was a disaster. So after I finally was able to get out, he of course

was trying to combat it. Tony was on his end and he was lashing out because I finally put my foot down. I felt so much shame from all of it. I felt like, God, I had it all together, you know, and then look what I did, so much shame to be in that situation and what it was. What struck me and why I advocate so strongly for abuse survivors now as well, is that while the judge granted the restraining order, he also was fairly shaming. What did he say? He said, why, uh, why did you get into this?

And you do realize that this is not going to protract you, right and every you know, his tone was condescending. Everything about him felt like he was saying, oh, stupid girl. It was interesting to be in that place, and I knew I needed to do it alone, so I did it alone. That was really it was really hard. And I also had one tiny moment which I think, you know, I now look back at as trauma bonding, where I actually felt bad for Tony. I had a moment which

then made me feel even more shame. And yet it's so normal. I mean, you nailed it, That's exactly what it is. And the trauma bonding, there is this sense of guilt and responsibility for this person and pity and for many survivors and they finally get themselves over that wall and say I'm out, you know, which is you know, absolutely super human an effort once they get out. That reaction of pity is so universal among survivors of these toxic relationships that I can't make enough emphasis on that.

But it's interesting. You've got a restraining order, you know, And I want to come back to that, because a lot of people who have been in these relationships can't get them. Were the nature of his threats such that that it felt like it was a there was a potential threat to of harm, to property, to that kind of thing, so that he was articulating like I'm gonna I'm gonna get you, I'm gonna harm you. I'm going

to come to this or that place where you're at. Yes, Yes, And you know, i'd known that he had been violent before later found out. He's a wall puncher, right like he knows, he knows just how much to push it. He's a hothead, he is, he has road rage. And I was the only person thus far in his life that I could tell who stood up to him, and so I knew that I was at greater risk most likely it wouldn't be you know, surprising at all if he were driving across the country all night long and

you know, showing up at my apartment. And what was interesting about that is after I get the restraining order, my husband and I we actually lived in the same apartment complex at the time, and we found out and this is when we had already decided we were going to get back together and we were supporting each other, and so we went to the management of the apartment complex and we explained the situation, and the woman was just incredibly incredibly supportive, like more like to the point

where I it was intuitively thinking she's been through this. And I said, well, okay, great, so we can we can move in together into the same apartment, which would be Scott's apartment for the time being, because I could technically get out of my lease because I had a restraining order protective order, so they allow that to happen. For any of you listening out there, please know that. So I ended up moving up to Scott's. But what she said to me right before we signed that paperwork

is I'm glad you're doing this. I was in an abusive relationship and my boyfriend he out into my apartment, and I happened to be on the first floor just like she was, and he got in somehow and hid under her bed and then attacked her in the middle of the night. And so she understood first person the type of risk that I had taken, just even publicly standing up to him. So that was nice to have.

You know, those sort of angels right that are around you that you don't even realize, like, wow, I can't believe that she was in that same position, absolutely, because you know what you're experiencing as a phenomenon that has been termed post separation abuse, which is an escalation and abuse at the point that the relationship is called done and typically called done by the person enduring the abuse, and and then everything escalates and can actually be quite

quite dangerous at that point. What the judge did that shaming. It's such a common thing that happens, not just by judges and other people in positions of power, but even ordinary people, or even people should know better, like therapists, who will just take the stance of like what were you thinking, why did you get into this? Why did

you put up with us? And yet you know it's sort of trauma one oh one, and to understand and why somebody nodding would get into this and stay in this, which is why it speaks to the whole need for education. But the other thing that judge said shaming, though it was, it was also sadly right, which is this is not going to protect you. You know. I think that's the agony of restraining orders that in the majority of cases

they escalate the likelihood of violence. All it does is it it creates the ability to get law enforcement involvement for things that usually wouldn't require a response, like somebody has come within a hundred feet of you. But the fact of the matter is for many people because in restraining order is something that has to be formally served to someone that agitates them, because these are people who don't like being told no. And you also brought up a couple of patterns. He was a wall puncher, he

was a hothead, he was a road rage. What I'm not hearing about is violence towards you. There's no violence. He was did not hit you. But wall puncher is

Actually it's an interesting term. I haven't heard anyone say it, but obviously I don't know people punching walls, but that wall puncher, road rage, hothead kind of phenomenology, that right there is sort of signature of these toxic relationships and that wall punching and Hovens may maybe more, which is not just not that she wants people to want people to sadly, but sad people find that people find that they can't do until they until they I have often

sold people watch how somebody drives, Watch how they behave on the road, because that right there is giving you a whole ton of information. And if it happens early enough, that should really be your sign to get out that because that really speaks to an entitlement and a lack of empathy. You you get the restraining order, you move back in with Scott. Did it end at that point? Did his behavior end at that point? No, it didn't.

He would reach out in different subtle ways, and even the police detective that I was working with and flagstaff said he's not going to stop just because you have this restraining order. He will find other ways. And so what I thought was interesting is that I hadn't planned or hadn't even thought through that he would have fake profiles on Facebook, which I should have that seems like that's, you know, an easy thing to deduce, right that that

he would do this. But he was literally crafting fake profiles, one of a man and one of a woman, and I'm sure there are many more. And those people would reach out to me and they would say, you're really embarrassing yourself. I can't believe you're talking about this stuff publicly and things like that. So, you know, initially you get the gut punch feeling, and then you're like, what, why, why? Who is this? Who is this person? So then Detective

Kirsten goes in and starts looking, Okay, where are they from? Oh, well, that's weird. They're they're supposedly married, but one lives in New Jersey and the other lives in Florida. So all of those red flags were going off for me finally, and I was understanding that, oh my gosh, he's violating

the restraining order just by doing this. Wrecked correct. But unfortunately, because it is Facebook, that's a really difficult thing to get them to hand over IP information and they did not, so there was nothing I could do on that end. But you know, I think it's pretty common and I'm sure you know all your years of work like that. It kept going up until a couple of years ago. I know he was still shaming friends and and different

people that he would find out we're supporting me. It sounds like that, And I will never ever soft pedal these these threats and these these messages that come in these online spaces. They're very triggering, they're very affecting, they're very upsetting. So to me, that's ongoing abuse. So that went on and has that now really abated and slow? Okay, so he's he's likely moved on to a new target.

I mean, that's really what ends up happening. They get new supply from a new target, and there's probably yeah, yeah, okay. So then you and Scott had already started working towards getting back together because you've moved into his upstairs unit. So what happened at that point that was a lot

for everyone to witness. And so what happened to all of it, to your to your marriage, to your furniture business, and above all else to you, Well, you know what what was interesting about those three years that I was in that abuse. No matter what I tried, even on the business side, it wasn't working. Nothing would grow it was as if, you know, the soil was just dried, cracked,

you know, awful. I was not in a place where anything could grow, and that's one of the things I noticed that as soon as I got out, I went immediately to see one therapist and another psychologist. I did a lot of inner child healing work. I remember, you know, when Scott and I got back together, he was so wonderful and he understood, he understood, and he obviously, like I mentioned before, he saw what it was that he

wanted to work on on his end. We both had a very frank conversation and said our marriage can't be what it was for the first eight in years, like we were both codependent, you know. Obviously he understood that a lot of what I had gone through how to do with this revelation of childhood sexual abuse. But he had healing to do too. So once we had that ground on which to stand, it was just easy and loving and I didn't feel suffocated. I did still have

triggers from the abuse, which I thought was interesting. I remember going out for dinner with Scott and we went to an Italian restaurant, and I don't think we had formally gotten back together. At that point, we were just sort of we were doing things together, you know, caring for each other and supporting each other. So we went out for dinner and I sit down in the booth and I sat down so that I couldn't see the door. And I sat there and I looked at Scott and

I said, oh my god, I'm doing it. He said, what are you talking about? I said, I just realized, And you're not even You're not him, obviously, but I am purposely like I was groomed to not want to sit where I could see the door, because multiple times in the relationship with Tony, if we were at a restaurant and the door swung open and a man came in and I maybe the light hit my eye and I looked up to see he would say, why aren't you paying attention to me? Are you? Are you looking

at him? Why are you looking at him? So it became another one of those things I did, keep her head down, turn your ringer off on your phone. If Scott texted too much, he was texting me too much, and and Tony would get mad if he was not text texting enough. Then Scott and I weren't good co parents. Like I could not win on any level. So those triggers I found that it took about a year for

those to subside. You know, it's funny you say that, is that I think that there's a stance that people take, especially after they've been through really a malignantly narcissistically abusive relationship like you'd been, is sort of that head down. You know, there's a defeat posture of person takes and all those microadjustments. Take the seat that doesn't look at the door, keep your head down, don't make eye contact, even how people dress, goes through the world, all of that.

It changes people in many, many, almost imperceptible ways. But you then you notice it and it hurts you recognize that this isn't just the simplest getting out of the relationship. That many of these scars come out in our feelings and in our behaviors for a long time afterwards. So is the furniture business still going? It is? Yes, it is okay. You know, everything started to blossom, to be honest with you, fully fascinating a week. A week into me thinking okay, now I'm going to try and resurrect

mod mom. A licensing partner emailed me and said we would love to partner with you. I just noticed that things were starting to come together again in ways that they hadn't before. Curis if I had a dollar for every time a survivor told me like things didn't work, things didn't work, this relationship goes away, whatever it might be. It's not even just an intimate relationship. It could be a family relationship, workplace narcissistic relationship. In your case, it

was kind of both. There's both workplace and intimate relationship. Then once I start lifting these sort of toxic blockages, things just started to flow. And I do I do sometimes wonder if it's sort of this kar mcdarmic block where it's like, no, this is not you know, it's not it's not your time. We have to get you out of this situation, and then that energy will flow, because I see this blockage for people all the time, and then they get out of it and they're sort

of devastated by what they've just been through. But there's a clarity of vision that has come back before you got back with Scott, because you kind of went right back in with Scott. Did you feel like you had a chance to even heal or even begin to heal before you got back what Scott did. The healing happened while you were with Scott, did all That's that's a

great question. I'm glad you brought that up. So I actually I think there were probably four months or so that I made sure he understood, like I just I need to heal me right now. I can't even think about like what we're gonna do here. I could tell that he wanted to get back together, but he also knew that because of our past relationship, and I felt suffocated that he was definitely trying to be careful about that. I felt like I definitely healed while I was by myself,

but also while I was with Scott. I have always been such an independent person and felt like I could take care of myself, you know, and made things happen. And just like I got this, I got this, And it was the first time I remember when Scott and I did get back together, I just wanted to cuddle. And as a childhood sexual abuse revivor and and probably many that are out there listening, no, I'm not that

I'm not a cuddly person. Earlier on, when you know, the memories were coming back, and I was with Scott. I was having panic attacks during sex, and I was trying to kind of figure out why am I having panic attacks? You know, why is this happening? So I have always been I've always been wired to yeah, hug and then back off because of the childhood stuff. And all I wanted to do was cuddle. I just like needed that safety, that security, and he provided that he

knew I needed it too. So I feel like it was actually, you know, to answer your question, it was both. It was while I was alone, it was while I was doing a lot of intensive therapy work, and then it was also with him. Okay, So I mean again, it's like you said, I think in some ways you framed it well. You said that this is a love story and a convoluted, twisted, difficult love story. But the strong love stories are often quite messy. So I want to do ask this, Yes, how Scott doing? Is Scott? Okay?

Because Scott went through something too, it was a different journey than yours. But you know a reminder that there are other sort of fellow travelers on these stories with us. How is he doing? He's great? Yeah, he obviously went through a lot too, and I have tried to be very cognizant of that as well, and he's very open. Like the way that this works now in our relationship is we're very open. Whereas before he said do you

want to go do something? I had to be trained by my therapist to actually literally say to myself, do I want to go do that? Instead of just give the pet appeasing answer. So I worked on that side of things, and so I would speak up, And now he speaks up and he doesn't have triggers much anymore.

But in the first year, because we got back together in two thousand and seventeen, I remember in the first year, if I would get a text on my phone and I looked at it, I could kind of see him bristol a little bit because he's having his own triggers

from the time that we had together. So we both just try and be really open with each other and really supportive and understanding, and you know, the most important thing to both of us is our family and being able to come back together and to support the kids in their journey too. We've been very open with them, and I have always been open with them, but it also required sitting there and letting them say I can't believe you brought that guy into our life. Mom, I'm

so angry at you. And I said, I know, honey, I am so sorry. If I could do this over again, you please know that you know it would never be this way. I'm so glad you're holding space for your children's anger, because that was something that was going through my mind. Is your children must have been so angry because you disrupted their lives and brought a dangerous person

into their lives. And I know that this is such a complicated space for survivors who may have actually many many people and in some stories different than yours, where their their their spouse was the narcissistic person, and the shame and the self blame and the guilt about having this child be stuck with the narcissistic parents is something

that will stick with them all their lives. But even in a situation like yours, where there may have been a relationship that the person went on to have after, you know, for whatever reason, and to be able to hold space for your children's anger, which is actually going to play out in waves, probably for the rest of their lives, and that's that's that's not an easy thing. But your role is to hold space for that anger

as we're coming to an end. Where can people find you and what do you want people to take from your story? So people can find me at kirston halfcock dot com that's probably the easiest or mod mom Furniture dot com either one. Again, Thank you your your stories again so compelling in so many ways that the toxic relationship what the human heart can survive. Though. You know, people can find you at your website. They can find

your book Little Voices. You can read the entire story there and they can really get understand all the nuances of which there are many in this story. Thank you. I am so blessed to know you and I just want you to know that Thank you, Kirston, I really appreciate it. Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Kirston. First, Infatuation is fun. It's dopamine meets the fairy tale, the preoccupation day dreaming, text messages and believing you are in

something special and in your own happiness cocoon. Lots of things block us from seeing red flags, but infatuation is a big one, and it's so challenging because it feels so good. I don't even know how to teach people on how to stay on top of red flags when they are infatuated. It's like teaching people how to do their homework during their birthday party. But it's crucial that all of us regularly check in with ourselves, no matter

how happy we are. For my next takeaway, infidelity is complicated, and Kirsten was aware of what her behavior did to her husband. There are differences between narcissistic infidelity, where there is entitlement and blaming and little self reflection, and infidelity that happens for a person who, for a range of reasons,

drift away from their relationships. The world isn't so simple as all cheating is bad cheating, and many relationships can come back after what I can only term non toxic cheating, but it does hurt the person who is betrayed nonetheless, and the relationship that emerges from the breach of trust may even be stronger than the one before, but it will never be the same. For my next takeaway, Survivors

are so often shamed in numerous situations. They are asked, why did you stay, why did you get into this in the first place, What were you thinking? If stakeholders ranging from judges to therapists two cops could understand basic elements of trauma, bonding and trauma, the why of these relationships would seem elementary. However, even the fear of being shamed by these systems can lead survivors to not seek help.

Finding safe, non shaming, non judgmental spaces is critical to healing and finding your voice when you are in a toxic relationship. For my next take way, post separation abuse is real and something we have discussed on this podcast before. In an antagonistic and toxic relationship, the period after a break off is often the most dangerous. Stalking, menacing, showing up places, and even overt threats are not unusual and are a manifestation of the control scene in these relationships.

Working with therapists who understand domestic violence and intimate partner abuse, domestic violence programs, and other advocacy are essential at these times. Kirsten had some angels along the way, such as her apartment manager, but not all survivors will have that do not hesitate to seek out help and resources. Resources will also be available in the show notes. A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valan Jeth

Ellen Rakaton and Dr Rominey Dr Vassila. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Mara Dela Rosa and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnaghe and Calvin Bailiff