Bikram Yoga and the Abuse of Power w/ Mandeep Kaur Sandhu

The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I heart Media or their employees. I don't think so before become anybody has set up such a big impact and this yoga has given the newest so much employment to the students. So that's how he misuses data, hard their

money and their dedication. There low about yoga. Dozens of folks going through dozens of yoga poses led by a charismatic speedo clad guru in a one five degree room. What could go wrong? Well, apparently a lot. And such is the story of Bickrum Yoga, a yoga brand founded by Bickrum Chowdhry that his followers believed was life changing. Unfortunately, as often happens, when a person starts calling themselves a guru, things got really toxic, really fast. Chowdery style was contemptuous,

gas lighting, dismissive, and at times megalomaniacal. Teacher trainings were notoriously brutal, but people swore by the yoga, claiming it healed what was ailing them, making Chowdhry a very wealthy and powerful man. Over the years, numerous women came forth with allegations of sexual impropriety and abuse. Insiders within the organization enabled him, and ultimately, in two thousand and sixteen, a culmination of lawsuits and ongoing accusations lad him to

flee the United States. People came to bick Rom yoga from a place of trust, belief, commitment to healing, and devotion to their guru slash teacher. Sadly, these are the perfect conditions under which an unempathic, grandiose, entitled and charismatic man can take advantage of people who want to believe. We'd like to begin monthy is if you could just tell us a little bit about your life in India and your start in pursuing yoga, Because I know you you practice a very devoted way. So how did that

all begin for you. First of all, thank you so much for having me there. And it's a nice opportunity for me to be there with you. So I started my yoga journey in a very early age and during my graduation because I have done my master in Physical education from Haryana. So we have a subject yoga. So it depends on which sports we took to pursue it in the future. I started in two thousand one my yoga journey and that's how I you know, showing all shorts,

my interest and my whoby tool. It's like more of sports for me is more important than doing something else sitting at home. Okay, So that's how the yoga comes in my life. And so it's been like almost maybe more than twenty years. I'm doing yoga. That's great, I mean, it's amazing. What a funny journey. Right, But there's doing yoga and there's doing yoga. You really do it, you're in it. What made yoga more of a passion for you?

I started as a company, you know, as a sport in my yoga life in my graduation, but when I left after competing, I have competed many times in India a championship inter college into university. I have achieved so many gold medals in I got seven gold medals in inter university, five to six gold medals into college. So that's how I start loving yoga. But somehow, what happens in India, You study and then you got married. You know, you finished your studies. When you get mad, that's the

end basically, And that same thing happened with me. I've been so many things and then I got married. But unfortunate in my life, I lost my husband car accident. Oh I'm so sorry. Yeah, my son was only two. I was a mother on that time and he passed away. Oh my goodness, you're a new mother now. My son was only two months on that time. Oh you're a new mama for two months old baby, and your husband

died in a car accident. I am, I am so sorry. Yeah, so you continued yoga now on that time, I was left with the emptiness, gone through so much stress and the depression. It's not only like you lost somebody, as you lost everybody around you, even you're in lass, even your neighbors or they surround you and they start giving you the advice, which is don't need it on that

time that Peter was very tricky for me. Like I started as a teacher as a yoga teacher in the one school on that time, a job so that I can support myself and my son and to take care of myself basically, and there was a very less money on that time. So but what I was doing it, I was just so much depression and so much pressure in my head. I will not be able to cope up. Then I started like, no, this is not going to happen.

Then I choose to compete again as a state level or as a national championship because that's what I was before to get mad. So then I thought, you, okay, this is my last chance. Let me try one more time. I competed at the state level, I won the gold medal, then completed the national in the gold medal. Yeah, and then I entered into the international championship. That's how the journeys started one by one. That's how I went to US to participate the international championship. There was a vision

that's a big deal. That's a really it's a huge deal to me. A national champion in a country of a billion people already is huge in and of itself, but then to go to the international competition is quite remarkable, and especially in the wake of having gone through such a difficult time. And this is an American podcast, I don't know that our listeners necessarily will appreciate the context of marriage and family in India and the meanings around it.

And to be a young woman who has lost her husband is it's a very complicated space, I mean within laws, especially when there's a child involved, and so as much as that would be extraordinarily stressful and grief filled in the United States, it's at an entirely different level in India that carries so much more sort of cultural heaviness to it too. So your journey is all the more remarkable for the barriers you came through. And it sounds like at that point competitive yoga was part of your

process of of going through grief. Now in this extraordinary journey, you've come to the International Yoga Championship in the United States, and it was at that point your routine at those international championships caught the attention of Big Rum child Ry. Could you take a moment here and just educate us on exactly what big Rum yoga is. He never invented the postures. He just invented the heat. So he took

the postures from his group. Is a book already. It is in the documentary where they said this all the postures he chooses in the making a series, all our posts taught by his guru in their Calcutta the studio. So he took the postures and he invented. He put the dialogues in it, and that's how we started teaching yoga. So that's he says, in the name of hot yoga. Okay. So it's combining a series of yoga poses from us in a yoga in a in a certain sequence and

adding the heat. But the post has always existed, always, always, all the postures what drew you to backround. So there is a big change to shift my yoga journey to like normal yoga to hot yoga, basically because Big Round is known for a hot yoga classes in the US. When I entered into US, so I was having so many problems physically or mentally or emotionally. I was not fit for that. Pushing myself, I was weak. I was showing I'm strong on that time, but from inside I

was weak. I was very big to you know, to take the step ahead. I was going through some skin issues after having a baby. I don't know what happened. I got a skin issues after the delivery. I was having a skin problem. So when I entered into the US and I just did my first class over there hot yoga, I have seen the changes into my skin. And I was taking medication every three days before and when I started doing hot yoga, it was like a five to six days rest. I didn't took any medication.

That was the first sign for me. I thought, okay, maybe this yoga can treat me physically first and maybe mentally later on. I took Courage for the first class was the worst class for me by I never thought this type of yoga is going to be around. I was thinking, like, people are crazy. Why they're doing yoga? I know how room? Why why they're sweating so much? In India is totally different. We do yoga in open parks. We do yoga, you know, with lots of big spaces.

There's nobody's troubling you. But over there, there was like a heated room and there was a packed room. There's no door open, there's no windows open, and everybody is there just doing for the nine timbers class. I did the first class and I almost like touch the death first class, and it took me so much power to go back in the second class. But I think medically it really helped me to choose Bickram yoga and then the normal yoga because I was getting medicated benefit from

hot yoga. Did you come to the United States and take the hot yoga classes before you met Backroom at the International Championship? So you met him first. I met him first because we were there as a competitor as India president, so we were there only for ten days. In the US. They said that if you want to do what they announced, if you want to do hot yogas, so there's a hot yoga class in the evening to all the competitors around the world. We're coming to compete,

So we decided to go there. So I understand why the hot yoga itself was so compelling to you. Was there anything about big Room Childery himself as a human being that made him compelling to you, that drew you towards him as a person. So when I first saw bick Room during the championship, so he was sitting down judging everybody, and I mean, like you know, so we are the competitors. So we were practicing and here and

there with the teams and everything. So I first saw him and I met him and I finished my routine on the stage. I finished my performance and then when I stepped down, he came to me and he said, you're really good. You know it. To focus more on your alignments and don't focus only on the flexibility part. Focus on the strength and the standina do ahtoga classes. Get it done. Then I said, okay, thank you so much.

So for me on that time, if somebody is giving you, why is as a teacher, as a gurgle has the championship and competing with on that time. So for me in India, guru is everything. We respect our guru too much. Any time there is a teacher or a so called guru where there is an anticipation of devotion or adoration,

there can be a really slippery slope. It creates a problematic power imbalance, and it can also harm the ability to be discerning if a person feels that they can never critically evaluate or disapprove of a guru's inappropriate behavior. The danger of obligatory obedience or devotion can be a set up for a very dangerous relationship. Every teacher who taught us still today even starting two tho. All the teachers and we have so much respect for them, and

for me it was changing my life. Who's going to change my life? If I was saying so, it's like, okay, we respect all the groups on that time, that was my mentality to while seeing him like okay, I should respect him as a girl, should give my gratitude to him. Talk to me about that mindset Monday, because I think that's an important issue here that you say we respect our groups too much? Right, what do you think is the risk in that? Basically it is all about your

mental status, how much you trust your own thoughts. We know the line as a guru that we can only take that much from the person until an honless it is healthy for us or it is good for us. But if you think it now, he's going to he's getting maybe which I don't need it, and he's trying to give me that. I might take my step back on that time and I will say I don't need this. I am here to learn from you the yoga. If you're going to teach me something else more than yoga.

I'm not going to take that part. Okay. I was in the need of who can push me physically mentally to make me more stronger than anybody else. I'm going to be video. But if you're going to push me down, taking the name of the yoga and break me more into million pieces, I'm not going to take that thing, I might say. And on that time, do you feel like you did that? Do you feel like you tried to push you down and break you into a million? Many times that was a journey for my teacher training,

not on men. I was there as a competitor. As a competitor. When I was there, it was so much helping or so much You're from India. I'm from India, so Indian helps Indian, you know. And when Bacom tried to break you down, like you said, if you try a guru should not do that. But when he did, was your initial impulse then to walk away to say I don't want this. When I went to the teacher training program, when I signed the paper, I was standing

with the two other people. There was one Indian teacher who actually pushed me to come out from my trauma and start doing something with my life. So he was also with me, and so he finished the class and he came to me and he told he didn't came to me. He told somebody else that is that goal know how to do massage. And I said, yes, I'm a professional therapist. And then it's okay, bring it over.

He's just bring it immediately. He put the towel down in the office and he lied on in the office with the people are standing outside, and I went inside. He said, okay, take the oil, let's do it. And I was like, okay, first of all, this is not the right place to do it. You can you can't just slide down on the floor and start making somebody to I'm not ready for it. I didn't came for the massage. It was all going in my head and I'll not be able to express my feelings because I

don't know how to do it. There was no English words for me to say it. So I was like, okay, let's do your job. When they let's start, and I start massaging it like half an hour, it goes to one hour. My hands started feeling numb, my fingers was feeling numb, and I don't know how to say, I'm getting tired now, I can't do it anyway. And he was just just lie down, not even talking, not even saying anything. And then I said, can I go? He said, okay, okay,

go go. So that's my wife first interaction as a student on that time. But I didn't feel really good about that. Maybe as a profession maybe I say yes to it, but not as a teacher, training as a trainer, as a training program. So that was not my priority. If I want to do massages, there's enough massages in I can do it, and I can from the patients. I can run my show. But that was not my passion.

My passion was yoga. When a powerful, manipulative person takes advantage of multiple vulnerabilities, as we see happening with Man Deep, she is far from home. She sometimes just didn't know the right words to communicate with in English. She was indoctrinated to respect the Guru no matter what. When an inappropriate ask like give me a massage is made, people can feel almost dissociated and go along with it. But it's as though the nervous system freezes up a bit

and a person just goes along. It's not as though they're really consenting to it. This can set up a deeply uncomfortable precedent in a toxic relationship, especially when there's a power difference, and can also leave a person in a situation like this blaming themselves for going along. Also, other people looking at the situation from the outside may also fall into the usual aiming rhetoric of well, you're

the one who agreed to do the massage. After that experience, though, when he laid down and asked you to give a massage, it's not what you had signed up to do. It wasn't part of the course. How did you feel about the course at that point? It was kind of like, you know, maybe maybe that was only once in a once time and maybe not going to happen again during the program. I think it's the end for me. It was the end only one, and that's the end. Now

my yoga journey starts. So I never thought that it's going to happen again and again and again and again. That was not my thought. And secondly, it's lots of money I have invested, you know, and I'm far away from my house. Yes, that's my last two chance, you know for me, there was no twice for me, there was no option. I have to finish the training. I have to prove myself that this is the only large

chance you can do it. Yeah, there's something you said that's so interesting to me because in your case, it was literal monthy. At the time, you didn't feel you knew English as well. So when this initially was starting to happen, you said, I literally didn't have the words in English to express my feeling for what was happening.

That was literal right. But so many people in that same situation, viewing the yoga teacher, especially someone like Big Rummas as powerful and as a guru and as a teacher, they may have had perfect command of English, but also felt that they did not have the words to describe what was happening at that moment because there was so much conflict inside of them. This is supposed to my guru, But this man is asking me to do something so inappropriate. What do I do? You know? What am I feeling?

And it's a confusing feeling. And for you, you literally felt I didn't have the word. But I think anybody in your situation would not have known what to do. But I think I have the right answer for that. It isn't my words. He is India and he has built up such a big empire in us on that time. He has such a good impact in front of people. He changed I don't know how many thousand lives only

by teaching yoga. So he has a power, he has the money, he has a good product in the hand, and he's so good into playing games through the mind. He can change the next person mine and when you played them like whatever I am saying, whatever I am doing is right. I don't think so. Before become anybody has set up such a big impact as a yoga and this yoga has given in us so much employment to the students. It's a health cluss money is It's

like a physical and the mental benefit together. So that's how he misuses their effort, their money and their dedication, their love about yoga and who is giving them. So I think he kind of trapped everybody's mind that whatever is gonna if you're gonna say massage me, massage me, calm my hair, they start calming his hair, Press my legs. They started press his legs. Indian guru never does that. I know it. I'm from India. Being a girl maybe man.

You can't say that there is a gender like men can do massages to men, you know, touches his feet or massaging his feet, but Indian Guru never let any women touch their feet or massages their hair. What I just my question and I saw like people like students climbing calmbing his hair. The question like why they're doing that did never happen in India? Why everybody is following this routine teaching yoga, practicing, making a speech, inspiring people is good, but this is not what guru is. Guru

signature is what full cloths from top to bottom. Yeah, it sounds like though he was abusing his power. He had this big impacts the money, so he was abusing that power and really showing people have the power. You're sitting here, you're combing my hair, You're you're massaging my legs. That's a show of power, and that's an abusive power, quite frankly abusive power. So big from himself become Childery

is such a strong personality. But at the end of the day, he founded this system of yoga called bicker of yoga. So you not only came, you did the international competition now you're going to go to his teacher training. What did you hope would come from the teacher training? Did you intend to want it and go back to India and then do the hot yoga classes in India? Definitely yes, because my plan was that only if I do the teacher training program, maybe I'll start working somewhere,

or maybe I opened my own studio in India. I can't start or yoga classes because nobody was on that time known to hotel in India. Now not even a single studio that I'm interesting. Something that's come up in the way that many people talk about Big Rum is that he's very charismatic, you know, very big character, big presence, almost like a performer. Did you have that experience of him, Yes, during the teacher training program, So he basically I think charactor.

I don't know. He kind of attention seecret. He wants everybody attention so much. You can also become like me, You can also like me. Yes, yeah, Well he was promised. It was a promise that you could have this life, this success. I think that was very much how he was he was approaching it. He shows the dreams to everybody, Yes, exactly. He shows the dreams to people. I agree. My session with Mondy will continue after this break. What was the

teacher training like? Because I've read and listened to many reports about it, and people have described the teacher training is having very strict rules and very strict requirements, and these were very long days for some nine ten weeks, and they weren't allowed to use the bathroom, and they had to stay up very late in the night, and people were getting sick. Did you have an experience like that as you went through the training, Yes, definitely. That

was the first training hour. I felt that my life goes up up and down. So for me, it depends how strong you are. Okay, the first thing, I don't say that I was the one who was strong enough to handle that program. I made myself. So for me, whatever comes in front of me, I'm going to cross. It doesn't matter what happened. It doesn't matter how many times have false stick, doesn't matter, how many times I feel tired, doesn't matter, how many times I have buked,

doesn't matter. So for me, everything was just behind my bath. I want to put grabbed in front of me and throw it back. It's like that. I don't care. I don't care. Let's do it. Let's finish this nine week. Let's finish this nine week. The documentary titled bick Rum Yogi Guru Predator lays out the grueling nature of the

yoga teacher training and month Deep had this experience as well. Certainly, intensity may be a part of any kind of physically demanding training program, but when that gets coupled with deprivation and control, for example, not being permitted to use a bathroom and being mocked for wanting to do so, or being subjected to sleep deprivation, that's when we veer into very toxic territory and the narcissistic and culti space of boundary violations and breaking people down in the name of

obedience to a program and its leader. Mund Deep herself talks about valuing the discipline that this process required, but also acknowledged it's too much. Intensity is fine, but dehumanization is not for me. It was not going in the challe and the challenge was for learning English, learning the dialogues, giving the dialogues in front of four people and practicing at the same time, and that was a challenge for me.

And then the rest of the practice. So like It's like how you say that I love the discipline, but sometimes it's like over just too much. It's too much, and the too much is not good for everybody. I don't think it's good for anybody. Yeah, yeah, nobody, but those who were hanging there was no nothing left. Maybe they can survive, but the rest of the them, they think I'm dying. Oh this that, and I can say that it could be people are like that, you know,

maybe one percent. I like that. Okay, I don't give a damn about it. How long? This is so man deep? Now I want to talk to you a little bit more about the process of grooming and the process of abuse that happened through getting to know the system of Big Rum Yoga and Big Rum himself and going through this training program. You know, again, the way this program

was is it really pushed people to a limit. Like I said, the isolation many of you are far from home, restricting even the most basic bodily functions like using the bathroom is I know a lot of it was about strength, but what did it feel like at the time? You know how, I guess my question would be, how did you think about it or even rationalize that this is

how this program was organized. So I think it is designed in such a way to hold the people mind, so make sure they don't think anything else, only the yoga. Only that you are stuck for the night mixed with us. You can't go out, you can't think about anything else. You have to do it. So there was a certain things we just designed in such a way. And nobody has a choice because everybody signed the paper and everybody

invested the money into it. But a few people will come up and say that I don't want to do give me my money back, right. Ultimately, the fact is Monday, when people hear stories like this, they say, Okay, you're in a room, it's very hot. They're pushing you. He's even insulting people. He's making fun of what they look like and making insulting their body and saying you can't go to the bathroom. A lot of people will say I'm going to leave. I'm walking out of this room.

And what you're saying is somebody who was there. You've invested all this money, you actually believe in this. You see a bigger career coming out of this. And I would argue you're sitting in one hundred and four degrees temperature. You're not thinking straight if you're that hot. Right, That's what happened in the teacher training program. Everybody minds us stuck or not only not to just say no, it was like OK, yes, yes, yes, there is no time

for s know that you have to do it. So everything is built up very slowly and gently to change their mental system, to change their mentality. What the thing? How you think you're supposed to be like that. You're supposed to be behaved. If you're a trainer, you're supposed to do massage, you're supposed to go on his hair or I don't think so. Even a single lady came up and said, I don't want to do this. I

didn't came from here for this. So that's how everybody got black mail somehow or maybe block mentally blocked, like they want to say it, but they are not able to say it right. And I also think that there is that sense of he has elevated himself to such a position of people want to be close to him. You say, oh, he's the leader, he's the guru, he's the teacher. When that person selects you, come brush my hair, come massage my legs. Unfortunately as part of a grooming process.

It's a part of a process of a person feeling special in that moment. Exactly, there's a four student and he picks up only goals four to five girls, and those four to five girls thinks, Oh, maybe I'm good in yoga, or maybe I'm doing very good in dialogues, or maybe I can be a good teacher. I can teach in his studio. So everybody's thinking that they're doing something good. That's how that's why maybe he's calling you. But there's always you can understand why this if you

want to prove yourself in yoga. Like when I went for one massage before the championship, then I went for my second. When he called me during the night, it was like almost two o'clock, two o'clock in the night, like they start from seven am, finish at eight o'clock, nine o'clock, go home and do the dinner at the hotels where you're staying. And being a vegetarian. For me, I was in a Las Vegas no Vegetatian food. I have to just survive on the cheese pizza, cheese pizza

every single day. I had the cheese pizza in goodness. So he invited you to his room at two in the morning. Yeah, so he called somebody called that girl called the goal. So they called me like when they can you come over to Vicram suit like I said, it's two o'clock, like, yes, become it's calling you, like okay, And I never asked any other question. I went over there and I don't know, maybe he wants to talk

to me. And he said, okay, take the bottle, come here, and I'd like, I didn't care for that for the massage two o'clock in the morning, and then I was in shock. On that time. I was like, seriously, I just finished, like I have to sleep, I have a class. But I didn't say anything to him that was in my head. Yeah, there are two things that are jumping out here. First, let's talk about sleep control and abusive

relationships and something we actually don't talk about enough. Sleep is as essential as food or water, and controlling that or interrupting that is a part of coercive control dynamics as well. Now, in this case, it appears that not only was Bickram so entitled that he believed that waking someone up at who am while they were sleeping simply for his pleasure in his massage was not an issue.

It also speaks to a massive lack of empathy. His behavior reflects his willingness to view mun deep as basically being in his service. He actually fell asleep during the massage, and it appears that he never even took note of or considered that this is a human being who has been woken up to do this. It's the middle of the night. That means she's not sleeping and she has a class in the morning. That complete lack of recognition of her personhood or the need of another person is

a signature of a toxic, narcissistic person. I was confused, what's going on? Maybe maybe second time I started massaging, everybody was outside, he was inside, and then I was massaging. He slept one hour, and he slept and I was still there. And then I thought he was gonna say monthy plus go now you can go, Now you can go. But he didn't even bother to say me, I'm sleepy, you can go, mane. And when I was trying to

move my head, just press my feet. Yeah, I pressed my toes, And then at the end I said, I have a class in the morning. Seven, Can I leave? Oh yeah, sorry, sorry, I forgot So I left the room and I was like half sleepy, half full tired. This happened gradually, and so he didn't ask anything in the first massage, he didn't ask anything in the second massage. He didn't said anything on the third. So it was like process. He was building up to make sure that

I should feel comfortable going over that. Okay, I have to only do this is my job, and you to do massa, you have to do like classes, you have to do teaching, the learning. This is It was like building up in my head. Okay, this is also part of the job. Now you're not only learning here, you also Okay, that's okay, keep doing it, Mondy, you don't

have a choice. Let's do it then. Yeah, I think I gave up one period of time, like maybe my first, second, third week or something after like finishing two weeks or third week. He called me again. So that's how I say this is not right. Something is there. I was not feeling good about it. The first feeling of the bad when he told me, and he was sitting on the sofa. The daughter was sitting next to him in his lap. Imagine the situation. The daughter is sitting on

the lab. I entered in the room. The two teacher was sitting on the other sofa. Four teachers are sitting somewhere else, and he told me sit on the sofa. I sat on the sofa. He lift his leg and put on my lap and he said, oh press. I felt like I am not servant. Your daughter is sitting on your lap. Ask your daughter to massage your feet. She has a right to do it, not me. Emotionally and psychologists somewhere inside, I was feeling very very low,

you know, like using as a servant. You know, that's the time I felt what I'm doing, Why I'm here and so many people are looking at me and I massaging his feet? This is something I would then know that's not right, You're doing wrong. That's the first time I felt like that was a wrong decision to come to the teacher training. I didn't sign up for this.

You want to sign my feet. I can amost aidle my father's feet, I canmost side my mother field, I can massage, feed and on money right here, man Deep says she made the wrong decision to come to the teacher training. That sounds like self blaming language. She made the decision to come to the teacher training in the

service of her career. Is that a wrong decision? What was wrong was that the so called guru teacher was using his power to subjugate someone who came to the training in good faith, someone who was thousands of miles from home. When we pathologize our decisions, I shouldn't have done this, I shouldn't have done that, what we miss is that in toxic relationships, we often make decisions in good faith based on the assumption that the other person

is going to behave appropriately. The problem in these circumstances is the toxic person's behavior, not your decision to do something that made sense personally or professionally. I do sign up for this, so that's the time it broke my heart. No, there's so much you have to see and feel what's going on to understand the things. That's the point where I felt like, okay, that's something is not right and did discontinue that. You kept getting called to do these

massages repeatedly during the training period. Yes, after third, fourth massage, third massage, when I this hapn't the incident. I told you so. After a couple of plays, he called me again. He never called directly. He always tells somebody else to call yes, yes, So like, okay, come over what he's calling you? So I thought it's become a routine for me on that time. Do the massage, do the yoga, do the treat of training program, massage, and go home

sileep for two hours, get back again. That was like I was following, like keep doing it. And then I started massaging him and he told me like I was rubbing a legs and the massaging and doing this, and he grabbed my hand and he put my hand on his private part and then I lift my hand. I was in a shock. I respect you as a group. I can't do this. I was already on the edge on that frustration level massaging too many times and the time when he told me like, oh, I'm calling you,

not for the massage, I'm calling for this. Yeah, this is supposed to we have to do, you know. So I thought like, now I can't do this. You're my guru. I'm so sorry. Can I leave? And he said it's okay, I say nobody. I rushed entered my room and I started so sorry. I said, the only thing. It came in my head, what are you doing here Monday? And the one thing only came in my head is my son face. I said, I'm not I'm so far away. I lost my husband, my son is far away from me.

I invested so much of my power, so much my strength, so much my money, and I'm here only for this. What what should I do now? And then I called the guy who who bring me to the teacher training program. Yes, yes, I called him. I told him I want to meet you right now. He said, what happened? I want to meet you right now? Can you meet? Yes? It was a night. I went to his room and I hugged him and I told him this, what happened. Why he's

telling me to do it? Why he's thinking I'm that type of girl who can do I can't do this. I didn't sign up for this. And then he said, like when they maybe some misunderstanding or maybe you miss judge the prodect. I never just I know what is this? Somebody will tell me to do the messages private part. I know what is happening. I'm not that down good

for you. Maybe I'll not be able to express my feelings in English or whatever, but I surely know what is wrong, what is right, and this is wrong, this is not right. Then he asked me, like, now, what are you gonna do. I was in the middle of the training. I said, listen, I want to leave. I don't want to do this program. I don't I didn't sign up for this. I want my money because I have earned for it. I don't have the Pope show anymore. Like I don't want my money back. I want to

go right now. And he told me, okay, when they you know, let's talk in the morning. And I said, I'm not going to talk to him. I don't want to see his face. He said, okay, talk to his family member. Then I go, whom should I talk? Wife? No, I'm not going to talk to wife. I don't know what is happening. It's not appropriate. Then okay, the niece left, who was taking care of the teacher training program. So I said, okay, I'm going to talk to the knee.

So the next morning, when I wasn't going for the class, I called his knees and I told very clearly, listen, this happened to me last night. I am here only to larn yoga. Please, I just want to go back to give me my money back, please, that's my brand question. And then she told me, no, you know, I believe something this understanding happened. When they don't worry, I'll talk to the No, no, not need to talk to anybody.

You just get my money back. That I'm not interested anymore to this strict training program and let me talk to him. Okay, talk to him then let me know. Then I don't know what happened. She talked to him or whatever. Then she came in the afternoon and told me, like, what's want to talk to you? Like, no, I don't want to talk to anybody when they listen. He didn't want to talk to you, And I said, I'm not interested. So once again, here we are with the necessary ingredient

for every toxic leader, for every narcissist, the enabler. Now, not only has mun Deep shared that the teacher who told her about the class told her that what happened between her and Bickram was a misunderstanding. Now Bickram's niece, who works for the program, is saying the same thing. Narcissistic systems are shaming, gas lighting, and denying systems framing something is just being a misunderstanding is a classical gambit not just by abusers, but by the people who enable them.

The challenges that the enablers are not always as charismatic or charming in that same way as the toxic leaders, but in many ways they can do just as much harm because they will often blame the person who was abused or harmed in the name of self interest or because of their own trauma, bonds to the toxic leader,

or very likely both of those things are happening. I sat all the way back behind before I was sitting in the front next to his chair, the boss chair on that day, I said all the way back his lecture was going on. He finished the lecture. There was a twenty minutes break on that time, and he went outside. I was not putting attention to listening. His lectures not interesting in training. I lost my track at that time, and he went outside. He waited for me. I don't

know what I was doing. I maybe in the head that when he's going to come to me and talk to me, I'm not going to talk to anybody. I'm done. He went outside. He came before before starting his lecture. He came back all the way down. He sat next to me on the chair and he told me when they I'm really sorry if you felt something like that, but that was not my intention. You continue with your teacher training program. Don't leave. It is good for you.

You need this, you invested the money, You're good in yoga, you're a very good goal you're hard working girl. I don't want you to leave everything in the middle. Finish your teacher training program and it's not gonna happen again. And really saw it for that, and he left after saying all the source. And then I talked to the the guy again, my friend, that this happened, and he said,

it's okay. Maybe some misunderstanding happen or maybe whatever. Why you want to leave, why you want to your money back. You finish the teacher training already in the halfway, you know. And I said, give me some time. I'll think about it and maybe then after, you know, in the evening, I thought, like, okay, if he said sorry, maybe he need it's okay. If somebody says sorry forgive, that's fine. And that's how I continued my teacher training after that.

Beware the toxic apology. It's likely that the enablers who were focused on damage control, protecting the leader, and protecting the brand, told him that this behavior is not okay, not because it hurt mun Deep, not because it was a violation of trust, not because it was abuse, but most likely because it would be bad for the Big Room empire. So his apology, like many narcissistic apologies, was a non apology, and what month Deep shared here is

a classical toxic maneuver. He says, it was not my intention, and before that, she recalls him saying, I'm sorry if you felt something like that. Those are not apologies. There is no taking of responsibility, no awareness that harm was done, Nope, and does leave one wondering what then was your intention? And waking up a person in the middle of the night asking her to massage you and then putting her hand on your penis kind of leaves you wondering, right,

what the hell was your intention? My session about Big rom Yoga will continue after this break, so that was not the end. Then what happened? I didn't knew all this during my teacher trading. After that this was going on behind my back. After a couple of days break, their families start going calling me for the massages. Yeah, I don't want to say anybody's name. One lady came for the massage, invited me. Then the second lady came invited me for the massage. I don't know why. I

don't know how. I think they was trying to prove that because he's not the only one who's taking massages, there are women too, you should feel comfortable and he's not doing anything wrong, so we we all are into that. I don't know what was the propaganda. So I massaged one lady, the checking lady. It was all fine. I was comfortable doing that, which okay because I was calculating in my head, what's going on, what's going on? What happened next? And after three to four massages, then my

teacher training gets over. Then it was fine. After that, he was not harassing me physically anymore. Here we are seeing an attempt at normalizing the abuse. It speaks to how entrenched his family was in maintaining the toxic system. By requesting her to come massage women, they were attempting, most likely to neutralize his behavior. In this fashion, enablers can become co conspirators and co perpetrators. I think there was so much things were going on behind my back.

I felt like I was left over in the teacher training. So I finished my teacher training and I got my certificate and I left us. I was in a contact with family and the big room also at that time. It's like a never ending process, like he tried to prove that he never did anything wrong to me, but I know it was wrong. And I got to know

all this. Then I got a mail from one of the nurses who worked Elizabeth Mainfield messaged me like written everything like mandep, is something happened with you in the teacher training program and physical abuse or something. And I heard the first case when somebody filed a complaint against Wigram that he's actually harassed the first case. So maybe I contacted Elizabeth or she connected with me, so I

have no yeah, yeah, I understand. Yeah. So she asked that question something happened within the teacher training program because I think there is something muddy behind it, And I said, why you're asking me this question? So she told me, like, when you were in the teacher training program, the girls came to me and they told me like stay away

from the mandeep. She is bad mouth girl. She is a lesbian, she touches girls in the wrong way, She's not mentally healthy, and they're trying to prove that I am maybe I'm not a good goal. And I told Elizabeth, listen, this is not because I was bad or something. It was because they knew if when they can come up and told his family member that he did this to me, so she can spread the word all the teacher training,

all the training is around. Okay, So any of you out there listening who are a narcissistic abuse savvy, you already know what this is. A classical smear campaign. Any time a person communicates with an abuser or about an abuser to their enablers, you can set a clock by their willingness to recruit those flying monkeys, those people willing to do their bidding and spread untruths about you. I have to tell you, Mundy, I so much respect for

you at the beginning of this. My respect for you now knows no bounds to be in a situation like you were, with the amount of difference in power that he had in that situation, and you did to have him abuse you the way he did for you, refusing to say I'm not going to sit with this man and hear this to know the something bad happen, to not be talked out of it. With all these people saying,

maybe it's a misunderstanding, maybe it's a misunderstanding. You're a very rare woman, because most people this experience, when your entire reality is being doubted, it's called gas lighting. Most people crumble under that and doubt themselves. And then when you add onto that this next thing that happened, of people now accusing you of all kinds of things, we call that a smear campaign that often breaks people, and

that didn't break you is really it is. It's quite remarkable in the face of the grooming and the abuse that you experienced, because it's absolutely awful, and in this circumstance where you actually thought you'd be safe practicing yoga, learning from a guru. I'm so grateful for your story Monthly, because many survivors things in that moment, can we actually stand our ground? And in your case, you did. You said I'm not going to sit there and I'm not

going to be talked out of this. You did finally talk with him and he said sorry, and you wanted to believe that. And while it didn't happen again, what happened after that? Exactly? That was the biggest shock of my life because the moment I heard that statement from the one girl who actually put it against the wise. When I read her statement, what he did, this is my action like Monday, this is the same thing happened with you. And he repeated the same word, same actions

to the next coming girls. And I have no idea how many goals he has used before my training or after my training correct, And I was like, thank god I was not part of his ship. He has to be punished, he has to say sorry about his actions. So let's talk about that idea of punishment. Do you feel that he's had to face consequences that he has had to face the punishment? He escaped, right, he did escaped, But what I think maybe he escaped physically, but mentally

he is spoiled, he's dead. Mentally. He made such a big empire. He puts so much hard work into this yoga, He put his soul to make this business so big. When people have so much respect and love for you, and when everything is ruined because of your actions, that's the biggest downfall for that man. And mentally he has already punished, but physically he's not. No, No, I mean I I agree with you in part. I think that he is not able to come here to the United

States live his lavish life. That there's been a downfall. People are changing the names of the studios Hot Yoga, they're not putting his name on them anymore. And while he does travel around much of the world as a free man and gets to keep teaching, and I shuddered to think, may still also be harming other people. Nobody looks him with respect anymore. You're right, right, yes, So what does punishment for a narcissist really look like? Very often we do not see criminal or even civil penalties.

But mon Deep nailed it when she said, basically he lost face and in essence he lost narcissistic supply. And perhaps that is the ultimate punishment for a narcissistic or toxic person. What else he has on not what India, we say that if you don't have money, it's okay, If you don't have power, it's okay. But if everybody respected, that's everything you can live on that. And he lost

the respect, he's a dead man for us. Yeah, And so knowing that and Obviously it's not a full consequence, right, there were not you know, people were financially harmed, people were physically harmed. There's no consequence for that. It's more of an existential punishment he's faced. So tell me, do you still believe in your Of course I do. I believe yoga before when I started, I believed more when I come over from my all the problems, I still

believe it because it is not for me anymore. It is for the rest of the people who are practicing yoga, because I change my life, and I don't know how many womans are facing the same problems physically, mentally or whatever. So it is for me. You know, every time I stand on the stage and teach, I felt, maybe I can change this person life. That doesn't matter how but I can't even put a one seed into that dead body, and maybe it can grow slowly and gradually. So that's

the only one thing for me. I still teach, still practice, not for others, for myself because I want to be happy, I want to feel good, I want to be feel healthy. I don't want stress in my life. I don't want depression in my life anymore. So whenever I'm doing. I'm doing for myself and for others. These are my takeaways from my conversation with Mondy first monthy story is a reminder about that most toxic of apologies, I'm sorry you

feel that way. If someone comes at you with that, your narcissist alarms should be blaring because that's not an apology, it's a questioning about how you're feeling. There is no taking of responsibility and no awareness that you were harmed. In our next takeaway, as a world, we need to stop putting faith in charismatic gurus or other grandiose folks who behave badly under the mantle of healing. There is no yoga pose in the world, no healing mantra that

would ever excuse abusive, contemptuous behavior. Sadly that charismatic, grandiose healer types are hucksters that have been around since the dawn of time. It requires everyone to stop worshiping the so called spiritual gurus and recognize that any healing we do is about us. Next, the power of someone like a biquum is something we see with many people with

narcissistic personalities. They are confusing and they are really confusing when it gets mixed in with something like a form of yoga that people really value that they are able to use to start a business and have their own

lucrative yoga practice as well. The dissonance between the magic of the yoga, the training, and the livelihood that comes from that being groomed in the setting to agree to his inappropriate request for massages makes it all but impossible for a person in a situation like this one to be discerning and to set boundaries. This story had an additional wrinkle. These trainings were expensive, and for many students, including month Deep, the idea of walking away from that

much money was not realistic. And many toxic relationships are made more harmful because people make deals with themselves. They say to themselves, let me just get through this period of time, or in this case, let me just get through this training and then I can get out of this situation. But the problem is that continuing to participate in a toxic relationship or situation like this takes a toll on a person. It may feel as simple as

let me just finish the training and everything will be fine. However, often it won't be fine because the abuse harms you and stays with you. I've said this before and I will say it again. A toxic leader can only do their damage with enablers, So don't underestimate the power of the enablers. Even if a person is not toxic but keeps rationalizing the problematic behavior in a system, Oh maybe it's all a misunderstanding that can actually really harm other people.

Don't be an enabler and be cautious with the enablers that you encounter. They may have seemed like your friend or ally until you call out the toxic behavior of a narcissist in your midst Thank you to all of you for sending in the questions and listening to navigating narcissism. In this next question, someone asks, what is your advice to a therapist or mental health care professional who has

married into a narcissistic family system. You know, it's interesting that this person saying it's either a therapist or mental health care professional, it's gonna be the same advice to

anyone who marries into a narcissistic family system. However, I do think there's something tricky when it's a therapist or a mental health professional who marry who marries into such a system a. You're gonna be a lot more aware of some of these toxic patterns, but you're going to have no more of a magic wand to fix this in any of us. That's that's the fact, is that mental health care professional wizard, um, you know, sort of special forest fairy doesn't matter. You're not gonna be able

to fix this. But here's the difference. One piece of advice I'd say is very important for somebody who has that background as a therapist or a mental health care professional, is that they may start using you as a free shrink, such as the entitlement of narcissistic family systems. So be

careful of that and ensure you set boundaries. The second pieces, and it's not clear to me from your question, but let's say the person you married is not narcissistic, but the members of their family are kind of be a soft touch here. What you don't want to do is just sort of go right up into your partner's face and say your your your husband, wife's spouse. Don't roll up into their face and say, yo, your family is

a bunch of narcissists. That's a lot. But what you do want to do is be very aware of how your partner perhaps is affected by their family, because if you can see that they're regularly being hurt or disrespected, you may very well be the first time that your spouse or partner is hearing a voice telling them, yeah, the way they're treating you isn't okay. That validation can really be important to the connective tissue of your relationship.

Where this gets really problematic and potentially tricky is if the person you married is not seeing that the patterns in their family are toxic. Then again, I will tell you make it about the patterns. Don't say how can you not see that your father is a narcissist, but instead to say, I just want to come in and talk to you about some of these patterns that your father is showing. You may very well find out that your spouse is justifying or rationalizing that might be evidence

of their long standing trauma bonds. But you, with your training as a therapist, hopefully we'll be able to then say, you know, let me frame this is why this isn't healthy, or also use it as a jumping off place to the boundaries that you need to set, because you could do in a very supportive way be able to educate a spouse or partner about why these patterns are unhealthy, how they're affecting you, and together as a couple ideally be able to set boundaries with this system. Marrying into

a narcissistic family system can also have bigger implications. For example, if you have your own children, then these are going to be your kid's grandparents, aunts and uncles. As a result, you want to have these conversations before those kinds of things happen, ideally, so the proper boundaries can be set early and you're not having to sort of build the

airplane in the sky. I think in some ways when it comes to narcissistic relationships, being a therapist or a mental health professional of any kind is both a blessing and a curse. In a way, you can see the patterns for what they are, but in another some ways where I think we feel even more helpless because we know there's other things we can take on. But also you may also have to absorb that radical acceptance of

h yeah, yeah, what have I gotten myself into. I may love this person I married, but damn this is going to be along hard ride with their family, So good luck with that. A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valon Jethrow, Ellen Rakaton and Dr Rominey Drvassla. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Maria Dela Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnihe and Calvin Bailiff