Welcome to Nature Guys, the podcast that connects you to the exciting natural world right in your own neighborhood. I'm Bob, a long-time nature lover. Last year, Beth came home all excited. because she had just attended a presentation by Dani Frivola, the research ecologist at Cincinnati Nature Center. Beth said I should invite Dani on the show to share innovative research that she was doing.
Thanks to Beth, I made sure to attend a couple of programs that Danny led. Beth, of course, was right. Danny's combination of knowledge and enthusiasm. is perfect for nature, guys. Dani, welcome to Nature Guys. Hey, thank you so much for having me. I've never done a podcast before, so this is really fun and exciting. Well, I'm sure this is the beginning of a long podcasting career. This is so exciting to have you on.
And I wanted to start at the very beginning of your story. How did you get connected to nature way back in the day? It's a long story. My dad is a high school science teacher. And as a kid, he always had all kinds of critters in his classroom and at home and just always encouraged us to be really comfortable with wildlife.
I wouldn't say he was necessarily somebody that goes hiking or camping a lot, but when you're just constantly encouraged to be immersed in nature, you just kind of grow up with it being second nature. We had a lot of... A lot of woods behind our house, so I was oftentimes just running around, getting dirty, getting scratched up, hanging out with the trees. And I would say that started all of it, all the passion for it. Yeah, that's wonderful. I think one of the...
Real problems today is a lot of kids don't have those experiences. They don't have the chance to do those kinds of things. Right. Partly out of... fear by their parents or whatever, but they just don't get a chance to get out and just kind of muck around in nature. So it's great that you did. And it's almost impossible to find somebody who's connected to nature that didn't have that kind of experience.
So going forward in your nature life, any mentors come to mind that kind of helped you down the road? Yeah, definitely. So like I said, my dad definitely sparked my interest in the outdoors and playing with animals and just being outside. So I knew when I went into college to get my degree, I knew I wanted to do something science-based. I actually started doing science education and then really quickly realized that I'd rather hang out with the trees than hang out with the people.
So I went to Northern Kentucky University to get my bachelor's in science. And about a year into my degree, I came across this program called the UR STEM program that Northern Kentucky is a part of. And I think UC is as well, where they encourage young. sophomores and freshmen that are in science degrees to do research and it's paid and that mainly because people in science fields drop out so quickly they don't stay in the science program so this was kind of an enticing
way to stay connected into the field. So I started doing research through that program when I was a freshman. When I worked with Dr. Lindsay Walters at Northern Kentucky University, I was studying ornithology and animal behavior. And she was... an incredible mentor, always trying to expose us to every step of the scientific process from
literature review to field work to publishing. When I graduated from Northern Kentucky University, I had been to maybe half a dozen different conferences, one of which was international, and I had even published. So just being exposed to that whole process, I think is really what kind of... Made me realize, okay, this research thing, this science thing, I want to do this. I can do this.
If you were a bird, would you say that you would be a bird that lives in the same area that does not migrate? Or would you say you would be maybe a migratory species? 100% migratory. I'm not very good at staying in one place very long. Okay. And so we're going to fast forward through some of your migrations. Let's just say that you did some migrating, right? I've done lots of migrating. You've done lots of migrating. Yeah.
But then at some point, you migrated to Cincinnati Nature Center about three years ago? Yes, that is correct. So how'd that happen? Yeah, so it's a long migration. So when I graduated from Northern Kentucky University, I moved to Columbus to go to Ohio State University where I got my master's with Steve Hovick.
I studied invasion biology and wetland ecology there. After graduating from there, I kind of took a hiatus from the academic world and did a backpacking trip through the Pacific Northwest. Did that for about a month, about 100 miles. After that, moved to Hawaii for about four months where I worked with the Forest Service. After living there, moved back to Cincinnati. This is where my family's from and where my husband's family's from. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find a job.
So I started volunteering actually with the nature center and it ended up being one of the best things that happened. What were you doing when you volunteered? All kinds of stuff. So I mainly was helping Jake Saberna with the native plant propagation program. Did a lot of that. I did a little bit of. land management and i helped out with some of the prescribed burns so i was there for about four months four or five months and then i got a job opportunity in montana
So I moved to Montana. Migrating. Migrating once again. I don't know that there's any bird that migrates in the directions you go. Probably not. At least not from Cincinnati. Right. So I migrated to Montana for about five months where I worked with... of Land Management. While I was volunteering at the Nature Center, I was told about a potential job opportunity.
And I was sent the application while I was living in Montana, applied and was given the job. So moved back to Cincinnati and I've been at the nature center since about 2019. So about three years. Okay. So what was this job that you did? Yes. So the Nature Center actually got this really cool grant. It was a three-year grant to the Schmidt-Lubb family to support women in STEM.
So I was fortunate enough to be the recipient of that grant, and I was on that grant for about two years. While I was paid through the grant, I did a lot of land management, all kinds of things from invasive species to... prescribed burns again and everything in between. But slowly...
Maybe after about a year, I started to help out pretty significantly with the community science program. The Nature Center supports all kinds of different community science projects. And I started to oversee and coordinate and make tweaks to about five of them. And after that, it was kind of just a snowball effect where I started working to improve these projects while also developing a research program with Corey Christopher, the Director of Conservation.
We just developed a really cool research project in addition to coordinating community science. So before we talk about the research problems, these projects. So was there bluebirds? Was that one of your projects? So bluebird monitoring is one of our community science projects. It's probably one of the ones I could say people get most excited about.
People love bluebirds. People do love bluebirds. And I don't blame them. They're beautiful. They've had a really interesting conservation story. We probably have about 30. 30 volunteers that help just for the Bluebird program. So it's one of our ones with the most interest for sure. Wow. And then there's Monarchs. Were you working on Monarchs too? That's been a big initiative in the nature center. So we have a couple different butterfly specific.
monitoring programs. One, butterfly monitoring program. And then the second one is monarch larvae monitoring. So that's a program I oversee and coordinate. And that one does have quite a bit of interest too. We probably have about 15 volunteers that help with that. And that's just to kind of get a general idea of when monarchs are starting to reproduce here, when we're starting to see caterpillars and the progression of that. So then you're not busy enough. So you get involved in...
developing a research project, right? Yes. So what's the story with the research project? Yeah, so... Once I started kind of taking over the community science, it was just kind of a natural transgression to start developing research projects for the Nature Center.
And the research projects that we really were interested in were ones that focus on land management, particularly ones that explore new management practices or just to ensure we are doing the best practices we can to enhance biodiversity. project that's taken up a lot of my time is focused on oak regeneration.
And that project came about because our natural land manager, Olivia Espinosa, was interested in doing prescribed burns within our forest, which we have never done. We do them within our prairies, and we've gotten really good at it, and we're ready to kind of expand. But before doing that, we wanted to see if our forest even needed that type of disturbance. And if it did, why it needed it. So that's when this project focused on oaks came tool.
And oaks have been kind of a theme on Nature Guys a bit, too. I interviewed Doug Colomy last year. He wrote a book called The Nature of Oaks. Yes. Which takes you through. It's kind of cool because it takes you through month by month life. in and around an oak tree, which is quite amazing. Bill and I did a podcast looking right out here at this beautiful northern red oak. And Bill and I did a podcast on that tree years ago. And I thought...
Well, we kind of covered it, you know, but no, we didn't cover it. Doug has just got so much information and that's really, I highly recommend that book for people who are interested in learning about. why oaks are so important to our ecosystem. Yeah, 100%. I really like that book because, like you said, it goes month by month. So you can really see the full story of an oak. I mean, a lot of people know oaks are tall. They just seem like a wise tree. They live old.
Or live a long time. But this, it really takes it step by step where you can see what every day is like as an oak tree. Yeah. So this project then. Yes. So like I said, the project is really, was focused on management practices. Once we started diving into this story, we realized that our forest, and not just the forest at the Nature Center, but throughout the region, the Midwest, and...
more eastward, a lot of our forests, instead of being oak dominant, are becoming much more maple dominant. And whenever I talk about this, I really like to emphasize that maples are not a bad guy. They are native trees. They have lots of benefits. do oaks, right? Of course, there's maple sugar, right? Yes, that's true. The Nature Center has a big program on maple sugaring, and that's become kind of a big thing in the Cincinnati area. That wasn't true.
Years ago. So I think a lot of people are like my neighbors. Yeah. They tap their...
Maple trees. Yeah. They come around and give us a little bottle of syrup. How cool. Yeah. It's such a great connector. And you're right. There's nothing wrong with maples. Right. They're very cool. Maples are great. They're native. We want maples. But what we don't want to happen... is all of the maples to outnumber and replace all of our oak trees we don't want to lose our oak trees oaks are incredible for all kinds of reasons but one of the most
noteworthy reason is that they support a ton of wildlife. Oaks support over 500 different species of butterflies and moths. Their acorns sustain all kinds of mammals and birds throughout the wintertime. So if we lose that,
we're going to lose a ton of wildlife as well. So this project was really focused on what we can do to make sure that we have healthy oak forest for generations to come. And we explored a couple different explanations for why we may be seeing fewer oaks in the forest we see today versus what we had seen historically. And one potential explanation is loss or less fires in our woodlands in this particular region than we have seen historically.
Oaks are thought to be more fire tolerant than maples because they've got really thick bark and they've got a pretty extensive root system, whereas maples have really thin bark and shallow roots. So fire would be a type of disturbance that could kind of keep maples in check.
where they would knock them back when they got too big and really open the canopy and more sunlight that would allow oaks to germinate and really thrive. So it's thought that without that type of disturbance, that is one explanation for why we are seeing more maples. and fewer oaks and also when i talk about this i i really like to be careful or try to be careful and saying or not saying that maples are out competing oaks we're not having an issue with competition here what's happening is that
a lot of situations are now present that are just more beneficial for maples versus oaks. So fire being one of those potential explanations. So we've explored at the Nature Center a couple different explanations. Fire is the one that people always jump to, so there's been a lot of work on that. So we wanted to do something new. And one explanation we were trying to explore was the role drought. was playing in Oak Regeneration
So, historically, droughts were actually much more significant and much more frequent than we have today, which is kind of hard to believe because it seems like every year we have some type of drought. But if you go back 500, 600 years, the droughts we were having were significant. more intense and more often. Really? And what we're seeing now is actually the exact opposite. So when we see fewer droughts, we're actually seeing more rain events and we're seeing more amounts of rain as well.
So we're having less severe droughts and more intense rain, which is more beneficial for maples because they like those cooler and moister conditions, whereas oaks prefer those drier, sunnier conditions. So we were interested in seeing if drought is the explanation for what we're seeing in our forest. And we are also interested in seeing the role invasive species play. So invasive species are everywhere, you know, not just here regionally, but throughout the U.S. And one that's really common...
also mainly in this region, is honeysuckle. I'm sure everybody is familiar with honeysuckle, but one thing that's kind of interesting about honeysuckle is that it possesses these... compounds that kind of act as toxins. And those are called allelopathic compounds. And what they essentially do is these compounds could get emitted in the soil, either through the roots or through leaves decomposing.
And it essentially acts as like a barrier. Unless you are a honeysuckle, you can't grow within this parameter. So it's essentially forming like a honeysuckle clique. If you're not one of us, you can't hang out with us. We were interested in how that may be affecting Oak Ridge. And it would make sense that those allelopathic compounds would influence both maples and oaks.
But because honeysuckle also has a really dense canopy, that shade is going to be more detrimental to oaks than maples because oaks like dry, sunny conditions. So that shade, in addition to the allelopathic compounds, may provide a greater disadvantage to oaks.
So we were interested in exploring all of these different explanations to figure out how we can promote oaks for future generations. Very cool. Yeah. It's been about two, two and a half years in the making, and we're starting to wrap it up. We're starting to find some cool things. What are these cool things? Yes. I kind of left you on a cliffhanger there. Yeah, you did. Is this to be continued? Part two? Yes, maybe. So we're not completely finished yet. But what we have found so far...
is that the allelopathic compounds are having a greater impact than drought. The allelopathic compounds led to fewer oaks surviving in our experiment, and it also led to shorter oaks. So that suggests that for management, that we need to focus on honeysuckle removal.
And at the Nature Center, we do a ton of honeysuckle removal. We spend a lot of time and a lot of energy and a lot of money on just removing honeysuckle. But this could suggest that we really need to prioritize areas that have old oaks in them. So that when the acorns fall, we can get rid of that honeysuckle and the acorns have a better chance of germinating. However, what we found actually was that oaks actually did worse in our drought conditions than what we had expected.
So if we go in and remove all the honeysuckle and open up the canopy, what could happen actually is that it actually dries out the soil more, which could actually have a negative impact on the oak regeneration. So what we're actually looking at right now is how shade influences oak regeneration. So once we get our results from this particular study... That will inform how we proceed with land management at the Nature Center. Let's go back in a little bit to something that happened.
Okay. During this project. And I think you may know what it was. What would you guess that I'm talking about? My predators. We had predators for our project. What were they interested in in your project? Oh, my acorns. Your acorns. Oh, my acorns. Describe that briefly. Paint a picture of that. This project was in a hoop house, and this hoop house was in an area that is deer fenced in.
So we particularly did the experiment here so that we could keep out rabbits and squirrels and deer from eating our acorns. So being predators that you would normally have in the environment. So we took all of these precautions to make sure that the acorns could really grow and we could really explore how drought and honeysuckle are influencing germination.
However, where there's a will, there's a way. And mice have found their way to my acorns. And we've taken all kinds of precautions. As soon as we saw mice were becoming an issue, we installed like aluminum. on our tables so that they couldn't grab onto anything and climb up into the pods.
You know, we did everything you could think of. We put cayenne pepper on the tables. We put them in the pots. But they found a way. And there was one day we came in and we noticed that the mice had... eaten or destroyed probably about 50%. or 55% of the pots. And how many pots, more or less? For this part, we had 240 pots planted. So I just imagine that one little mouse happened to find their way into the soup house and then just had a...
heck of a good time. Went home and told all of his buddies, all of his siblings, and then there was just this huge party where everybody came in and just decided to destroy my experiment. And what makes it even worse, in my opinion, is that we oftentimes found the acorns throughout the nursery. So they weren't even eating them. They were just taking them and running away and just...
purposefully, I'm sure, trying to destroy my experiment. Why do you think they were doing that? That's interesting. The acorns, well, I mean, just like we talked about in the beginning for benefits of oaks. Acorns are a high fat, high protein, high carbohydrate food source that a lot of animals really need to survive the wintertime.
And we planted these in February. So when, you know, towards the end of winter, when all of the berries have started to, you know, no more berries, the acorns that were... that fell in the fall have already been eaten so food is becoming really scarce So then all of a sudden they find these really healthy, fat-looking acorns, and they're just 10 out of 10 excited. And they made sure that they stocked up for sure. So where were they putting them? Did you track them? Just everywhere. Yeah.
Everywhere. They couldn't find one solid gash. They were just dispersed throughout the nursery. Sometimes they just dug them up and left them by the pot. So just... Just taking them out for the fun of it. Not even eating them. Yeah. So that was a battle.
To say one of the volunteers that helped with this project put up a trail cam because we lost so many acorns. We refused to believe it was mice. We were thinking a raccoon got in, something got in because there was no way that a mouse could take out a hundred different pots. But these videos, man, there's just little mice running across the table carrying these acorns that are bigger than their head. Man, they...
I'm glad I made some mice happy, but they did not make me very happy. I can imagine, but they are cute, aren't they? The videos are so cute. They are cute. It makes it really hard to be upset because, like I said, the acorns are larger than their heads, and you just see them carrying them around, scurrying across the table really fast.
fast and then bloop just right off the table and off they go yeah well this is uh some of the unintended things that happen right i try to think of it as if we did this experiment without these barriers there are going to be things that eat the acorns anyway. So this is just a natural thing that happens to acorns. Acorns are sought after. So that's another factor that is kind of influencing oak regeneration is that there are so many things that eat the seeds of them.
And it's gotten particularly worse over the years because we've lost the chestnut, which was another nut-producing tree. So when you take away one food source... all the wildlife is going to go to the other. More and more things are eating them, so they're having a harder time from that front as well. That's really interesting. And this is ongoing. Sometimes one thing leads to another, right? And as you said, really the goal at the nature center
is to use the research in the management practices. Yes, exactly. So isn't this a... A refreshing concept. It is. That we actually look at something before we decide to take action. Because sometimes in nature, what we think might be going on isn't actually what's going on. And your results have been somewhat...
Yeah. Mystifying in some ways, right? And so then you kind of tweak these things and move into another area, all the while using it to help management practices to nature. It's really amazing. And so you're going to be presenting. You had a conference talking about your initial findings. Yes. And then this will be an ongoing...
project going forward. So we're talking about episode two here. Yes, stay tuned. I think we have to stay tuned to find out what went on in episode two. But you, of course... Being the migratory species that you are, it's... It's well past your migratory time. It is. Normally, I stay at a place for about five months. Five months. But you stayed at the Nature Center for almost three years. Tells you how cool the Nature Center is. Yeah. I mean, that's great. That's really fantastic.
Fantastic, and I think it speaks well, certainly, for the Nature Center and the support you had there. You know, we've touched on this a couple times, but... The volunteers. Oh my gosh, yes. I didn't know that until today that you started as a volunteer. But totally, when I met you at the Nature Center the day that I came out, you were so appreciative. of the volunteers.
You just can't run projects like this without them. Unless you've got a million dollars to throw at a project and hire people, but you can't do that. And not only that, even if you did have those kind of resources, Danny, what is so neat is to see all those people engage. in the project. I worked on the project. And what are they doing? They're going home.
Just like the mice. Yes. And they're telling their friends. And they're planting oak trees. They're planting oak trees. They're planting oak trees. They're telling the story to their friends. So it's spreading. And they're so excited. Like you were saying, I'm so appreciative of the volunteers. I could not have done this project without. them. They donate so much of their time, so much of their...
efforts towards this project. And some people have been doing this project since the beginning, so for over two years. But I think what's also really exciting about it is just seeing how passionate they are. I mean, the volunteers refer to their oak trees or these oak trees as their babies. They have their favorite ones. So I imagine these mice were. Oh, yeah. It didn't break just my heart. It broke a lot of hearts.
But yes, the volunteers that help with this project in particular are incredible. This project went on throughout the wintertime, and the oaks still need to be watered in the wintertime. And because we're interested in drought, we really have to...
be cognizant of how much water they're getting. So we actually measure it out using graduated cylinders every single week. So there's volunteers in 15 degree weather who are putting their hands in buckets of water to measure out the exact volumes we need. And distributing that to 200 pots. They work harder than me on this project. I'm very thankful for them. Well, I think this is a great story. And you did a lecture last week that I attended. And...
As I was leaving, there were a couple people talking to each other, and they said, Oh my gosh, Danny's leaving. It's very sad, but I'm very glad. She's moving on to something exciting, but she left us so much here that people will continue. So you have planted... some seeds at the Nature Center and encourage the volunteers and the research project, which will continue on after you're gone. What can be a better legacy? At your elderly age, right? Yeah, it's very special to know that I can...
physically step away from this project, but there are people that are still passionate enough to help me carry it on when I start my next chapter. And so this next chapter of the migratory bird, you know, it is funny that you're looking right back behind me and I can't see it, but our hummingbird feeder. Yes.
Hummingbird may be your signature bird. Maybe. I like that. That's a pretty good migratory bird, right? Yes. They're small. They move a lot. They move a lot. And they sometimes get blown off course. Yes. Very true. So, you know, well, not off course. They just end up in some... We're unusual. Yeah. Where are you getting blown to now? So I am moving back to Montana.
Montana has a very special place in my heart for all kinds of different reasons. Actually, when I was in graduate school was the first time I took a trip to Montana. And I took a solo trip to get a break from my thesis work. And it was the first solo trip I took. And I've thought about it every day since. It's been about four years now. And then, like I said before, I was able to live there for about five months before working at the nature center. And it's just such a...
a special and wild and pristine place. And a job opportunity popped up that I am really excited to take advantage of. So I'll be working at Flathead Lake Biological Station doing some really cool work. work with some really cool people. And even though it's not oak trees, I think it'll be a lot of fun. That's great. I mean, I am so happy for you. It's really...
It's been very challenging to step away from the Nature Center and this particular project. The Nature Center is some of the best people I've ever worked with. Like you said, that's... the longest job I've had besides my thesis work. I've been here for three years now, but this is a fun opportunity that I'm excited to take advantage of. It's been so exciting to talk to you today. Thank you, Bob. It's been so much fun. This really has.
This is going to be a challenge for you, but I'm going to see if you can do it. Okay, let's do it. Most people cannot. Okay. But we have a tagline at the end of Nature Guys. Okay. So it's step outside and stay a while. Okay. So what we'll do is we'll end on that because that's really what it's all about. We want people to... Step outside. The world is too big to stay inside. That's exactly right. So this is Bob for Nature Guys saying, until next time, we hope you will.
Step outside and stay a while.