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Y'all.
This is episode fifty six of Native Lampod. I am so so grateful to be joined by my friends and co hosts Tiffany Cross and Andrew Gillim. I'm Angela Rye and today we got a lot to talk about. So what are we getting into today, y'all? Freedom is on the line for me. That's all things I want to talk about. I want to hear what you guys got, Andrew, what do you have? Well, Andrew's on mute, so I'll hop in. I don't know why Andrew mutes, but I'm gonna.
I want to talk about there were there were twelve men since September of this year who set themselves a blaze in protests to conditions in their prison. So I want to talk about the state of prisons in this country.
Wow. Well, Trump continues to transition transition and as he takes aim at DOJ Department of Justice in the YEA, I'd like for us to charogate the history of the FBI and it's historic violence toward black folks, and where we put that today.
Well, speaking of the justice system, I want to talk about Joe Biden pardoning Hunter Biden and who else should be on that list. As you all have seen, he has the lowest pardon record since Richard Nixon. So I want to talk about that, and if there's time, I also want to talk about Mitch McConnell's surprise or not so surprising hypocrisy on judicial appointments. So that's what we got. Let's get into it. So pardons has been the topic of conversation everywhere, and of course we're going to talk
about it right here at Native Lampid. We're going to start with this question.
Hey, Native Lampod Kimberly Archie, I'm just wondering, can Biden step down and appoint Kamawan president for the next sixty days where she can pardon Hunter Biden and flip some tables over legislatively while she's president.
Imagine her being the person to transition the powerful position to forty seven. Actually she would be forty seven and he would be forty eight, which would really mess up all of his merch.
Think about that, but I like that, petty, Okay, So I like that, Petty, I want to talk about Joe Biden, who has said repeatedly he would not pardon Hunter Biden.
He has now pardoned Hunter Biden. And so my focus group question is not being in public. My focus group question is do y'all think he's wrong for that?
I don't.
I'm just curious to know that. And then I want to get into who else should be pardoned.
I don't think he's wrong for that.
I think any parent would have pardoned their children if in the same position. You know, I would pardon you guys. I would pardon your parents. I would pardon your kids if I had the power of the pen to do that. I wouldn't fall no matter what side of the divide this is. I would understand any parent pardoning their child. But I think the subtext here is what they were accusing Hunter Biden of was some bullshit. At the end of the day, like this was you know, political theater
put on by the Republican Party. It is not analogous to the Mueller report or you know, the the impeachment hearings. Like this was a very it was a witch hunt, and so I don't really I think putting a lot of this emphasis on Hunter Biden's pardon. Quite frankly, somebody tweet I can't remember who it was. It was like the executive director appointer. I think somebody tweeted and said no matter how you feel or posted, I should say,
because it wasn't on Twitter. But no matter how you feel about the Hunter Biden story, it certainly is not the biggest story this week. And I just think that's a big part of it. Like, why are we even talking about, Yeah, he pardoned his son. Anybody's gonna do that, Like, Okay, he did it. Next, let's think about all of the craziness coming out of the Trump administration. But in the echo chambers, all you heard about was this Hunter Biden pardon. So no, I don't think he was wrong at all.
Let me ask you this, because there are folks who are feeling somewhat frustrated because when they have sought pardons for people who are equally deserving, this administration has been silent. One of them is a case that we're very familiar with. The close to is our friend Marilyn Moseby. And my biggest gripe here is not that he that he pardoned Hunter Biden again, tip to your point, I would have
agreed and done the same thing. It is the fact that the same prosecutor who was attached to and prosecuted and was on a witch hunt against Maryland is the same prosecutor who was a science of the Hunter Biden case. This man's name is Leo Wise. Y'all should look him up. We talked about on the podcast prior Before I go down my rabbit hole, Andrew, I want to hear where you're at on this.
Can I before you answer, Andrew, can I ask Angela a quick question? Because we love you know Maryland obviously you know we know her personally, but what does because she didn't serve prison time, So if you can just remind us what is her current punishment I guess, and why a pardon matters for her.
So, Marilyn Moseby is currently on house arrest. She is someone who is in the car Storo system. Still, she has to check in with a probation officer, she has to follow a curfew. She has a job offer that you know, she was really excited about that she's not been able to take because it requires some travel. Her law license is still on the line. The forfeiture of her property. The properties that she purchased still on the line.
She had to sell one, there's another one that is potentially in jeopardy because of this conviction, and so there is so much on the line. Just because you didn't actually go to jail doesn't mean that you're not in the carceral system. And I will tell you, guys, the other thing that is a little troubling for me, And this is where I, like many of the others who are frustrated by Joe Biden's hypocrisy on this. It's not
that he said he wouldn't. I don't know why he said that he wouldn't, to begin with, pardon Hunter Biden. But what they did say at the White House in our conversations is that they would not get involved before the full trial was over, before the sentencing of Marilyn Moseby, they would not get involved. Guess who hasn't been sentenced, Biden, Hunter Biden. Yeah, So I just need to understand what it is if you say, well, you know, we will
get involved, but y'all didn't turn into part and application. Okay, we turn it in part and application where we wouldn't get involved. But y'all, she hasn't been sent yet. Okay, now she's been sentenced. What is the hold up now? Because it's the same person. In fact, the same argument that Joe Biden used in his statement about why he wanted to pardon Hunter. Biden is because of selective prosecution. That is what we argued in the Maryland Mosby case.
It's the exact same thing. And so my lawyer in mind, exactly it's the same unit. Right, there are folks right now choquit lamonba who is who's being targeted by this same Department of Justice, same agents that were involved in Andrew's case. Over and over again. It's the same thing.
And so.
Yes, black mayor surprise, surprise, So we keep going through this same thing. And Marilyn Mosby is an example of a larger issue with the justice or the injustice system and the carceral system. It has to be fixed. And if Joe Biden, who is responsible for authoring the crime bill, cannot see the issue here, he's already said, you know, we're gonna parden some marijuana offenses, all of them, all nonviolent drug offenses. Period. Do you know forty four percent
of those incarcerated federal prison are drug related offenses. Pardon these folks. Some of this is the vestige of your work, and it can't just apply to your son. You can't just have compassion in your heart for your son who struggle with addiction. There are many people who struggle with addiction, who have lied on applications or who stole because of their addiction. You have to have compassion for all these people.
Yeah. Yeah, when you mentioned the drug system and almost half the prison population and being there as a result of we all should say in direct credit to the United States government, who is in part, quite a great part responsible for much of the infiltration of drugs into this country, the introduction of it into our communities, very specifically,
and those are facts and non fiction. The other consequence, partly of Maryland's the penalties that she faces, the jobs that she'll never be able to apply for, and many of which in the federal government, which because of a federal finding of guilt you're automatically disqualified from.
Now.
Of course, that does not apply to the presidency of the United States. You all know which I want to spend my time, all right, you know, right at this very second. But y'all the I'm of course not upset with the President for the partning here, partly because it is the President, in fact, the reason why Hunter was charged in the first place. Had he been Hunter Smith,
this would never have been a charge Leo Wise. The only other case is to your point givity, where in this gun charge was ever bought before in that district was once before, and it was summarily dismissed by the prosecutor. They chose to drop it and not move forward. Yet in this case, they decided to go after this man after a possession of a weapon for twenty four hours
while active addiction. While most of us who know people who have been addicted, I have and others I know you are very much so in denial about being an addiction, and so part of that question and answering that question is a person being able to even recognize that they are in active addiction when they take in action, take a step. Most people in an addiction are the last ones to see it and are the last to admit
that they have a problem. My biggest issue, and Angela and you hinted at this, is that this is not a new occurrence and our understanding from a public policy standpoint, which the President is chief at that you have to understand that it's not just in your relationship to a person under which you understand the circumstances of an injustice. You ought to be able to recognize an injustice on
his face when it happens. And selective prosecution going after individuals because of the positions they hold and who they may be related to, not because of an offensive they've created, is problematic, period. And so he's got what forty some of our days, y'all. I want to see what the pardon list looks like as he rushes to a close.
But I want to hold my biggest beef for the Democrats who are out here on television talking about how this, you know, the action by Joe Biden is offensive, and they're clutching pearls and they're, you know, losing their head over this action. And we just gifted Donald Trump something. Well, guess what all the things you think you gifted Donald Trump he was accusing us of in the first place.
He was already accusing of the president of running a partial justice department that went after Republicans and and and stayed off Democrats. They were already saying he's the most corrupt president in the history of this country. So why is it that our beef with Biden has to be in proximity to what Trump and his supporters and Republicans are going to say, think, and do for Democrats later
they should be time out for this. I'm so sick of Democrats being the establishment to uphold the standard rails, but never ever ever seeking to question and interrogate those rails of government that quite frankly, have overstepped. And that's why I want to talk about the D D o jpiece because I think it's it's been that way for a very long time.
I think they're trying to appease people, you know, like they're they're there. They're trying to appease this base of voters. And it's like, guys, if you haven't learned anything from the last election, the people who you're trying to appease left you. They are not coming back, right, They're not coming back. So instead of trying to appease and walk this middle of the road, especially when it comes to criminal justice, which has disproportionately harmed us, all you do
is become political roadkill. When you walk in the middle of the road. What if you led with with your conscious the conviction and courage of your beliefs, and spoke to real life policy. Maybe, just maybe you can inspire a new base of voters. Because you know who did that, Donald Trump, low propensity, first time voters, helped put him in office. There is a whole bunch of other people who just sat on the couch to have an opportunity.
You have an opportunity to tap into those people and speak about these things.
And when you were about to say something.
Yeah, I was just gonna say. You know, the thing that's frustrating to me is we keep saying, like I remember being on Capitol Hill and hearing actually one of the contenders who I don't think should become DNC chair, Ram Emanuel say to a member of Congress who is from a battleground state, he told him to vote his conscience. And I think that what's missing here is there is this idea that you know, you have to do the
right thing. He was willing to sacrifice his son. Nobody asked you to sacrifice your son, Like what would everybody else do or want to do or encourage you to do. But also, don't forget about the least of these this this pardon power should not be reserved for the privileged few. Otherwise, what does make you different from Donald Trump?
Right?
If Jared Kushner's father could get pardoned and after that pardon become the ambassador to France and everybody who is proximate to the part and power because of what we're hearing, we're hearing allegations that people pay for these pardons under the Trump administration. What makes people any different? Does your last name have to be Biden to receive a pardon?
Because what about Kim Gardner? Kim Gardner had to take a plea deal, arguably because she couldn't pay for a defense Andrew, you know how much it costs five dollars a five thousand dollars reimbursement office. Who she is? I'm going to write, like from her office a prosecutor who like Marilyn Moseby, modeled her office after Kamala Harris in
Saint Louis. Five thousand dollars reimbursement that the ethics attorney said, millions caused you to run that case against Kim Gardner, and she took the plea because there was no way out for her. They were suffocating her and they made it seem like it was going to be private. They issued a press release. These are just a couple of the names that we can mention. I know there are so many other.
About the apologies. What about the folks that they drug like myself through the mud after being in my emails, my cell phone, my life, my bank account, my children's business for eight years and bought a case with no evidence.
Yeah, none.
The financial impact that it has on you, Andrew that you talk about saying.
The emotional right now, y'all, I'll work for the rest of my life to pay a million dollars off. But it takes on you and legal fees, but the toll that it takes on you to have had to stand subject of everything you've tried to do and be upright in so doing because you feel it, you believe it, you're doing it for the right reason. These folks snatch away from you like they're just turning on the fucking lamplight. That's right, with no apology, no redress. No, I'm sorry
for what we did. We got it wrong.
And that's the point as we go to break and get ready to talk about what else is wrong with that goddamn Department of Justice going down to the FBI. We'll get into that on the other side of this break, But yes, they not Sorry Andrew, that's the truth.
That's real.
So, y'all, our last you know segment really just put me even more deeply in this place about Tiffany You're comment about Andrew's reference to speak your con about your conscience, and then your reference to you know, folks getting up there and just speak the truth and see if you can't reach voters by just saying a thing is a thing. Well, to me, y'all, I think Donald Trump is accomplishing this
as well as it relates to the Department of Justice. Now, of course, I can't stand the folks he's appointing over there, don't know the the man he's trying to put over the FBI certainly a disruptor, there's no doubt, but also himself got some issues. But y'all, any of us who could sit here with a straight face and say that they're are not deep seated issues in the Department of Justice and in the Federal Bureau of Investigations, which reports up through the Attorney General, we would be lying to
ourselves as a community of blacks period. If we go back to the FBI's founding and the war on the freedom and Liberation movement largely sparked in California and Northern California and spread all throughout the country and the world as we fought for our freedom. The list of terrorists that they kept, domestic terrorists that they kept, which was largely held by black folks, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X.
Stokely, Carmiel, John Lewis was on the no fly list. Andrew of course come on like on the no fly list after two thousand like fighting when I worked on the Homeland Security Committee, they had to get him off the no fly list.
So, in other words, the violence continue until this day, islence against our community perpetrated by the federal government visa v. The Federal Bureau of Investigations. These are the same people you talked about, the mayor of Jackson, Choquay you talked. I tell you my example, same agents who are not going into communities to snuff out crime. They're not going into situations where crime is being committed, and they're trying to do the business of problem solving to get a
problematic individual, person, entity, whatever, out of the way. No, no, no, no, no no. They're going in creating crimes, perpetuating these things, and then in their best effort, attempting you to be complicit. And even when you do the right thing and say no, it's too late. You're caught in their web. They have invested too much money, They've got to bring charges, and they got to look good at the end of the day.
And the problem is is that, y'all, this has been happening not only to our movement leaders, but think about I'll just give you one example here in Florida, Florida, the highest number of blacks we had representing us in Congress and any one particular point in time is three at the highlight four And do you know of those four, three of them had FBI investigations and the consideration or
actual charges bought against them as leaders. And so my point is is, and we see this through your example, Angela and the cases that you've bought out, they are intentioned on going after our people, shutting us down. Whether we follow the law and do right or whether like other individuals, we make mistakes. They are committed to our public assassinations. Maybe not in literal form, but very much so.
In our ability to contribute and exactly and in some cases very much so little, and we all know what you're talking about there, but their commitment to it is so deep, so ingrained, that in my opinion, Donald Trump would not be in the ro if his even though it may be motivated by, you know, very individual and personal reasons, we know enough from our experience as black folks in this country that this is not an agency
out to do in wholesale good by all people. In some cases, it is to perpetuate the worst and then put it on us to take us out the game.
I even this is such a go ahead. I think this is such a good point and part of like, I literally was watching something yesterday. I can't remem if I said this to you guys or not, but there was a Russian outlet talking about how good it was that Donald Trump was getting ready to dismantle the FBI, and I found myself in this really interesting predicament. I just want to be honest, like very interesting predicament, which is he's going to try to just try the garment wall.
Actually I don't really like the FBI like that, right is the one that I want to fight. And the reason for that is, you guys, we laugh about this all the time, but it's true. I'll be on the phone with my dad sometimes, who is an activist whose parents received a death threat phone calls just for him trying to get the street name changed after Martin Luther
King from Empire Way and in Seattle. And he always will tell us like, maybe don't say that, you know, they tapping a phone, Like we have been conditioned to believe these things. And I got to tell you, I don't bit my trust nobody working in the Jay Edgar Hoover Building at all, you know, Like, and I think
we have to be honest with this. So I'm trying to think and what the thing that gives me comfort is what the Congressional black HAWKUS founders used to say, which is there are no permanent friends, no permanent enemies, just permanent interests. So what are some of the things when we look at like we've looked at all of Donald Trump's appointments. We continue to dig through that as we talk about these each week on the podcast. Tip
was like, you should just forget it. It's late by the time He's appointing so many people they would draw but here's the thing. If we are able to wrestle with what we would actually be in favor of and be honest about it, because there are things that Donald Trump could do that I could support, including recentering and refocusing the FBI and stuff that matters. I don't know the cash, but tell is the dude to do that.
I'm gonna be honest with y'all. I think he ends up using it to target us more in the spirit of j Edgar Hoover, right, But if he was to say, you know what, there are people like Moumea and Asada and folks who have been targeted by these agencies that they need to be pardoned, they need a second look. There are people who we've already named, some elected officials who Donald Trump would normally brand his political enemies. If you were to say, welly I know it's been weaponized
because I too experienced that. Y'all know. He said he was a victim of the system, So I was going with that for me. You know, all of these things are there some places where because of our oppression systemically systemically, so in this country, we could align with our permanent interests, and I think this is one of them. I if they do the right thing now that if it's so damn big, I don't even know why we going down this road, but I gotta be honest with y'all. That's
what I was thinking Washington. I was like, what these Russians say is something that I actually agree with on this.
I want to pick up on Andrew's point about the FBI surveillance was because I think, you know when you say things like that, like, yes, co Intel pro is something that a lot of people know. But long before co Intel Pro, in ninth the Red Scare of nineteen nineteen, the FBI was targeting black people. Then they were so concerned at that America was treating black people so shitty that they would align with the foreign adversary. So the FBI was more concerned with black people than they were
with foreign medaling itself. Then you cut to one hundred years later, a century later, not quite, but ninety eight years later, in twenty seventeen, the reporting came out that the FBI had another watch list of black identity extremists.
And some of our friends were on this list. Black Lives Matter were on this list.
So I think it's really dangerous and some of our luminaries throughout history have been on the FBI list. Cash Battel is the person who Donald Trump has tapped to take over the FBI. Of course, right now it's FBI Director Chris Ray. Donald Trump can't just tap people. This person has to be appointed or approved by the Senate and he you would also have to fire Chris Ray. And the term for these directors write our ten years, so they could go across administrations. That is the whole
point that they're not supposed to be political. I just want to tell the viewers a little bit about Cash Betel. He is a forty year old extremist. He is a lawyer with very little government experience. He was tapped by this trumpet, minished and rose rapidly there. Now, you guys know how many loyals well out of New Jersey eventually out of Florida. Yeah, but you guys know how many loyalists surround Donald Trump. That's how you get to rise
in that administration by being loyal to him. Among the loyalists, Cash Betel was considered the most loyal. Why that should be frightening is he doesn't he's not an expert on a lot and what might he be willing to do to appease his boss. One of the people, Mark Milly, who was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time, had to pull him aside and say, do not break the law in order to appease Donald Trump, because life behind bars isn't great. He was raised Hindu parents,
grew up in East Africa. They were Reagan Republicans. He was only a handful of people of color in his class. Well, once he went to law school. That's when he went to Florida. Like you said, Andrew and was a public defender, so was doing good work, and people saw him get radicalized and he became more to the right, more to the right, and then he startedizing off his government experience, selling wine scarves, tank tops, ridiculousness, I mean, making a
mockery of government. He worked a security consultant for the Qatar government during the twenty two twenty twenty two five Foot Cup. He is willing to do anything he has said, and had I had time, I would have pulled this down. He has said we will go after the media criminally or civilly. He has been one of the loudest people who says he wants to expose the deep state within
the halls of the FBI. Imagine what somebody liked this, with access to all types of information with security clearance, could do in order to weaponize his position to appease a political infant like Donald Trump. This is something we have to pay attention to.
I want to on his hitness absolutely the top absolutely lists of people he wanted to go after. I agree. I mean, I think the person Tiffany, to your point, which we have to interrogate obviously, is is woefully wrong and unqualified and all that other stuff. But I tell you another thing, and institutionalists who believes that all systems and structures of our government are beyond reproach is also
a bad idea. I don't know who that person is, and I don't think Donald Trump probably has the capacity to a point somebody qualified for these kinds of positions. But the institutional list, which unfortunately it feels to me like the party, the Democratic Party itself, is molding increasingly into sort of the standard bearers for the status quo.
The institution is itself. And yes, there are parts of the institution that must be stabilized for the for the the frankly well being of the American people and our interaction with the global community. But then there are other parts of this system, FBI being one of them. The Department of Justice, you know, in part and in some cases almost in full, very little exception, have done tremendous violence, have had rules and laws propagated off of the activities
that they have observed us to do. And that is the only reason why certain things have become illegal. Federally have created sentencing guidelines perpetuated off of not the horrendous nature of a crime, but the nature of the person who has done that crime. To me, that's ass backwards,
that's discriminatory, it's wrong. It ought to be leveled. And if the Democratic Party can't stand up and look at a thing and call it exactly what it is, they can't hope to gain any credibility with the American voter who sees these things every day. They see it, perpetuate it. They see y'all drop the charges against Donald Trump across all federal counts after he becomes the nomination the president
to be. And you don't think people are saying, well, that looks political to me now, But yet you you crying about Hunter Bideny, Well, let.
Me let what's on this point. I'm so glad you brought it up because I forgot to bring it up when we were talking about pardons. We have a clip from Joe Manchon that I want to run as we go to break. Let's talk about it on the other side. Let's hit that clip.
Nick as a.
Father, I don't know if a father that wouldn't have done the same thing. What I would have done differently, in my recommendation as a counselor, would have been, why don't you go ahead and pardon Donald Trump for all his charges and make it you know, it had gone down a lot more balanced, if you will.
Welcome back everybody. I just wanted to say really quickly about Joe Manchin. His an independent senator from West Virginia. Bug Joe Manchin, Okay, Like this guy has been such a problem in the Senate. Nobody even ask your opinion on this, and I just I think that is part.
Of the problem. It is their side of the divide can express.
Empathy only when it's people who look like them. They can express empathy only when it's something that impacts their lives. Specifically, how many times have you seen a right wing Republican senator or elected official who's very anti LGBTQ until their child comes out as a member of the community, and then all of a sudden, you have all this compassion. And I think that's the difference between a lot of us and a lot of them. It don't have to impact me. I'm not that self centered for me to
express empathy and understanding to somebody else. Joe Manson is a part of a bigger problem, a bigger political problem. But I'm really I'm on strike from the US government.
I just feel like.
They don't even deserve my attention right now. In January, I'll be back, but right now I'm on strike from engaging the US government the job when having something to say on Joe Manchin or can I talk about prisons?
You can be on strike from Joe Manchin. But I know you too well. You know that when we don't pay attention awaypen, I'm paying attention community almost. I know That's what I'm saying. You're not on strike. Well, there are wars who violating us.
Here's the thing that I thought was important about this and why I was glad you brought this up. Andrew was talking about Democrats being the standard bearers for like right institution, doing the right thing, protecting institutions. Andrew, you one of them. We got in a whole ass.
But there are certain guardrails that must exist. But then there are ones that have real implication, like whether or not I serve time. Yes, but also so I did a crime that I'm being accuted consecuted for.
But also inviting a terrorist into the oval to have a transitionation now well, I mean almost, especially when he's getting told welcome back by the President. But here's the thing. So when you say to the American people, this man is a threat to democracy, and now you have Democrats because it wasn't just Joe Mansion who I love, somebody who I love. Congressman Clyburn was on air last night also suggest that Joe Manchin was quote onto something about
this pardon for Donald Trump. And my concern is that you cannot speak out of both sides of your mouth and expect for people not to see the blatant hypocrisy here. If Donald Trump commits eighty eight felonies ninety one, but you know, some of those were dropped, as we know, and now he gets he's considered to be pardoned. They're look hearkening back into history when this happened under another administration.
Richard Nixon is the person who comes to mind, right, this is not politics or business as usual, and so it's very very concerning to see that they would have this conversation at all, like why are you talking about pardoning this man? Those all of the charges have already everything's been postponed. Jack Smith had to postpone the case. So the fact that they're now considering a pardon of Donald Trump when they're again so many people's freedom is
hanging in the balance, is so disturbing to me. And TIF, I know you have something on freedom. This all shows about liberation today and I'm not talking about liberating Donald Trump.
Well, I want to quote Tip again before we go to this prison piece, which I'm incredibly interested in as well, And that is her point around roadkill, around rocking down the center of the goddamn road. That is what you get with Joe Manchin and I love you, brother Cliburne. But any sympathy in that direction is a bad Eyedea. It is a bad idea because let me tell you this much that MF. En all lock her up right right?
When his first time around, do you think for a moment they would not have gone full tilt to ward prosecuting and persecuting their political enemies. Now we're not that, I get it, but I know this much. We don't provide cover. You don't give shelter to the terrorists, to the domestic terrorists who is trying to destroy everything and everybody who's not him and those who are not in
his circle. And that's my real problem with allyship with Trump is that I am always confused around whether or not they are learning the right lesson from his prosecution. What he learned was that he's got sympathy with black folk,
and that was that was the lesson. No, sir, no, what you should have learned is that there are some laws that are directly targeted toward certain people who are then admonished, prosecuted, drug through the mud for things that quite frankly, are irrelevant and if you ask the American people, that wouldn't care two shits about. And that's the problem when you create laws around who commits them versus something being bad for society, period, that's it.
But the whole probly the entire show has been teeing up this point that I want to make around prisons. Right now, there are I want to give this information before you here, right now, there are four hundred and sixty five thousand, two hundred black inmates in state or federal prison.
I'm sorry.
That was that as of at the end of twenty eighteen. That's according to Brookings. Now this year, since September fifteenth, at least twelve black men incarcerated at Red Onion State Prison. This is in West Virginia. I'm sorry, why is County Virginia. They have set themselves on fire in response to degrading and inhumane conditions at prison. I want you this is from a documentary that HBO did. I want you to take a listen to why one of the men is even in prison. And this is not a discussion. I
want to be crystal clear. This is not a discussion around who should be in prison or who should not be in prison. This is a discussion around the conditions that hundreds of thousands of black people and all people. But I'm just focused on black folks because we are disproportionately represented, are facing every day in prison. Take a listen to Mike Kelly, who is an inmate at red Onion State Prison.
My name is Michael Kelly. I originally Consage, Los Angeles. I don't know nobody out here. I don't have no family, no friends out here.
I don't know a.
Soul in Virginia. I came out here to Virginia to drop somebody off, and I commended a couple of robberies, and the courts in Virginia gave me thirty eight years for two RM robberies. If I would have known that, I would have got thirty eight years for two armed robberies. Like I would have never done it, you know what I mean, Because would have been like, holy shit, I'm not flint throw on my life away with thirty eight years for two armed robberies. That's crazy, that sounds nuts.
But I didn't know how serious it was out here in Virginia. In California, i'd have got like eight years and not have been that, you know. But I didn't know how serious it was, and I didn't know how serious a society took that.
Now that's one inmate there, and again we're not talking about his crime, but I do think it's important to point out that white, privileged, wealthy people get to make mistakes and fail and are absolved from a very harsh, punishing criminal justice system when it comes to the rest of us. When you look at baill reform, when you look at people who are held in jails until their trial, who are appointed overcrowded public defenders, this is all a
problem in the system. Now, the twelve black men who set themselves on fire, imagine how dire conditions have to.
Be for you to set yourself on fire.
This is from a podcast hosted by Malika BALaw that Arizona, Al Jazeera English, and she spoke with Noel han Rana, who is a legal director for Redwo Justice Fund, and she's the co director of something called Prison Radio where you can actually hear what it's like form men in prison. Take a listen to how she describes the conditions at Red State Onion Prison. At Red Onion State Prison.
We've had reports over the last number of years. Actually, one of our main correspondents, Kevin Rashid Johnson, has been reporting from Red Onion State Prison for over a decade.
Prisoners treated worse than dogs.
Britain Is such as Curtis care who put.
A whole resistance, but was mored by two dolls than beaten by guards.
The conditions there are deplorable.
Twenty eighteen.
And as a results, and they take.
Many people from our inner cities and move them to this very remote location that has almost exclusively white staff rural county, where the prisoners are almost exclusively people of color.
Okay, deplorable conditions.
What are we talking here?
We're talking dogs used on prisoners to intimidate, threaten, and bite them. We're talking about spitting in people's food. We're talking about no respect for people's religious tradition. They cannot kneel to pray, They have their religious materials such as the Qur'an or their Bibles destroyed in front of them. They are brutalized, they are covered in caps mace. They are left to not be able to be taken care of in terms of getting the mace off of them.
They are beaten, They are denied access to their families, to phone calls, to reaching the outside world.
So why this matters today? And this is crucially important to people who voted for Donald Trump over a STEMI check. One of Projects five's most significant proposals will terminate the use of consent decrees.
We've talked a bit about that.
These are legal mechanisms that the federal government ensures that state and local jurisdictions comply with constitutional law. For black folks, specifically, consent degrees are crucially important because it can compel prison in jail systems or police departments to remedy systemic violations or breaking the law. Project twenty twenty five will require the Department of Justice to again pursue mandatory minimum sentences. It erroneously claims that the more people you let out
of jail, the higher the crime goes up. We have not seen that happen. There's no data to support that, and they're citing catastrophic increases in crime.
Again, no data supports that.
Project twenty twenty five will establish an extremely punitive approach to justice, and it's calling on the dj to do everything possible to execute anyone currently on death row. So all the people which I've talked about on this show before and how dispportunate we are represented on death row, they're going to press them to do that. And this is despite stark racial disparities among black folks in Florida,
your neck of the Woods and Drew. In twenty twenty, the Santas signed into a law a bill that allows people to be convicted and sentenced to death without a unanimous jury.
With only eight.
People on the jury finding you guilty, that is enough to send you to the death right. So you think about if you got that one black person on a jury, their vote is now they're rendered powerless. This is federal prisons and red Onion State Prison is a microcosm for
all how all prisons operate. You when it comes to jails, black people made up almost half the state jail population, even though we're only thirteen percent of the US population that was in two thousand and all of these laws that we talked about, the First Step Act has not been enough because black adults were still in prison in twenty twenty at five times the rate.
For white folks.
So I just you know, the administration is moving so quickly it's hard to keep up with these things. This is something that is going to be relevant for a while. This is evergreen in the sense that we all I don't want to forget about people in prison again. There I'm not being an apologist for problematic people who've committed crimes who've murdered, people who've raped, people who've drugged people.
All of those are legitimate problems. But the way that we treat these men in prison and women women in prison, it does not rehabilitate anyone. It is not reforming anyone, and it's not being helpful to society. It is a drain on taxpayer resources. But most importantly, it's a disgrace to humanity.
So if I love that you, I mean I obviously the topic is degrading, but it's real. It is exactly what is happening. And I appreciated you invoking the word rehabilit rehabate, rehabilitive, because prison is to serve two purposes, one punitive so that you pay for the crime and it be such that it is dissuading to people outside to do it again, and the others rehability. I don'tabilitative, well, but in the context of the sentence, really rehability.
I didn't know that was.
To be honest, rehabilitative isn't the work.
Is it rehability rehabilitative.
Comment? I'm either way. It's meanted to help rehability an individual, so that once the punitive part of your sentence is over the time you must spend there that you're able to move back into society and play a functioning role. Well, guess what happens when you decide to extract a person from the community in which they know that they love, that they will be given any reason in the world to want to do right by so that it can be returned to when you extract them and get them
all the way across the country. And this happens by the way they shift inmates with it or within the prison system to worse ones within the prison system, sometimes away from their family as as as as part of you knows back.
A lot of the guards are members of white supremacist societies and gained.
You don't have to call back the layer too far to see why it is that so many of these law enforcement and incarceration agencies are almost all stocked with white folks. And while they're almost always put in very rural, sequestered areas of states where the population that surrounds them the workforce that then obviously works there are all homogeneous,
almost all of them being white. But the part about removing people from their family, this is the cruel and unusual part of it because if you're trying to get somebody to understand what they did wrong and then get to a place where they can then make a commitment to do right by whom by this society. No, they want to do right by their children, but their mother, by their wives and husbands and girlfriends. That's what you
want to do right. But when you starve the humanity out of a person by starving them from the people who love them and whom they love, when you don't allow them to be in communication with them, and when they are in communication the rates are socking high on
the phones that working people can't even do it right. So, if we have international laws about how it is we deal with prisoners of war, people who are coming for our lives, our land, that your punishment can't be cool and unusual, and their whole set of standards on the which they must be treated, how is it that right here in this country we don't have a standard against crul and unusual, that you can be as cruel and unusually cruel with your tactics as possible to bring people
to heal and have it on.
Paper, right, Yes, we have it on paper, but it's not applied, you know, it's yeah.
Again and it's on paper to to to bring someone to heal in a system of justice in this case is these are punished sights. These are you you you f with the right one today.
And it's not rehabilitative.
Rehabilitative rehability is not. But the word is rehabilitative.
Is that what we learned?
That's okayabilitated? Thank you whoever gave us that. We got that part of it.
Now.
I want to quick shout out expect.
People to return to a community when you've taken all of the humanity, when you stripped it and starved them of any remnant of what it feels like to be treated like a normal, regular human. I just want to what happens to be in.
Shout out the Virginia Legislative Black Caucus because they are looking into the accusations about the Red Onion State Prison. So if any member of the Virginia Virginia State Legislature Legislative Black Caucus, if you're listening, we would love a video update from you guys, what you find out, what actions need to be taken, how we can be supportive then anybody out there really, because like I said, this
is a microcosm. And for if, for some by some miracle, if someone is incarcerated listening to this, I just want to say, you were not forgotten about. We honor and remember that you exist just as a human being, independent of your crime. And I'm not excusing anyone's behavior or
excusing anything alleged. Right, Well, well, some people have been convicted and even but even that doesn't mean they're still Yes, but even for the guy who said, yes, I committed these armed robberies, like I don't think he should be held to that for thirty eight years of his life. And to your point, and even how law enforcements slowed their ranks, it was because it wasn't to keep America safe. It was to keep white communities safe from black people.
They said, you can, Yeah, you could beat a negro, you could shoot a negro, you could murder one. You just got to be wearing a badge when you do it. And that that has helped expand lawns don't even need to be wearing a bad exactly exactly.
Well, but the system was correct. Stem came out of vigilanzi just we're a little overtime for a break. But I do want to just on this point around sentencing the armed robbery, the gentleman that committed the armed robberies that he talked about. He lolo sent these statistics from
the United States Sentencing Commission. The average sentence for robbery offenses and fiscal year twenty twenty three was one hundred and eleven months months, which is approximately nine point two five years longer than murder in a lot of that's right. At twenty seventeen USSC report found that black mail offenders received sentences on averages nineteen point one percent longer than
similarly situated white male offenders. So the thing that we are hoping for is one that the Virginia State Legislative Black Caucus reaches out to us with the video that you guys can email your videos to hello at Native lampod dot com. And also we would love to come yeah and bear witness to what's happening in that prison and like lift up the stories of the folks Tiff has talked about today as well as many others who are not yet heard.
So we thank you, Angela to those lawmakers to not be cowed by the organized industry of the prison industrial complex and the police and the and the and the patrol unions to not be cowed by those people, to push through for what's righteous, what's righteous, and what's right right.
And so with that, we are going to righteously take a break.
Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome.
So one of the things that I think we have to talk about is we've contemplated the full justice system today. Whether we're talking about the federal state level, it's important to and Tiff brought u juries. We also got to talk about judges. And one of the things that we've seen happen in Congress is the blatant hypocrisy that exists
when it comes time to appoint these judges. So recently there are a couple of democratically appointed judges who've said that now that Donald Trump is out in office, hey, you know what that retirement I was thinking about, I ain't gonna be able to do it. And my outgoing Minority Leader McConnell, who is still in he mad age these people who he thinks are older, too old to be judges anymore. His old ass had this to say
about in chief right, about them not stepping down. Now that the twenty twenty four election results are in let's roll that clip.
Looking to our history, only two judges have ever ever unretired after a presidential election, one Democrat in twenty oh four and one Republican in twenty oh nine. But now, in just a matter of weeks, Democrats have already met that all time record. It's hard to conclude that this is anything other than open partisanship. They roll the dice. They're a Democrat who replaced them, and now they won't. They're changing their plans keep a Republican from doing it.
It's a brazen admission, and the incoming administration would be wise to explore all available recusal options with these judges because it's clear now that they have a political finger on the scale.
This sentime right, I know, right, and I wish it was but in twenty sixteen, So this is of course just this week. But in twenty sixteen, eleven months before the twenty sixteen election, Mitch McConnell had this to say about Obama's decision to nominate Merrit Garland for the Supreme Court vacancy.
Miss President, the next justice could fundamentally alter the direction of the Supreme Court and have a profound impact on our country. So of course, of course the American people should have a say in the Court's direction. It is a president's constitutional right to nominate a Supreme Court justice, and it is the Senate's constitutional right to act as a check on a president and withhold its consent.
So, of course, if eleven months is way too close to an election to appoint someone to the Supreme Court in twenty sixteen, certainly when Mitch McConnell, who's now eighty two years old, and it's pushing for people's retirement except for his own. Certainly, certainly in twenty twenty, when there were only six weeks left, he would not want Donald Trump to appoint anyone to the Supreme Court.
Let's roll that clip.
On Saturday evening, President Trump announced his nominee for the Supreme Court, Judge Amy Conye Barrett of the US Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit. I had the opportunity to meet with Judge Barrett earlier today. I left our discussion even more convinced that President Trump is nominated exactly the kind of outstanding person whom the American people deserve to have on their highest court.
Okay, So I just you know, I'm surprised, right, because miss McConnell said eleven months was way too close to an election. So then it's six weeks.
He's like, well, well, six weeks is a.
Perfect time to appoint a conservative justice. And now he said, these democratically appointed judges, I don't know why they won't retire anymore. And at that point, you know, and they said that they weren't going to return. He mores about the same point as them. Amy coy Barrett nomination. I'm trying to understand what's happening.
Well, all this proves, as you know, Angela and Tiffany, Mitch McConnell is not only a hypocrite, but the greatest thief in American history, you know, the one that stole a Supreme Court justice. See eleven months before Obama was the American people should have a choice, that was his line. Well, they did have a choice. They elected a president for four years, and he gets to act as president all the way up until those four years are up. That's
how he goes. But he's a great thief. He's a great com man and the thief.
That's it.
I just want to remind people that Mitch McConnell is a direct descendant of people who enslaved black folks.
Is you sure he not the one?
I mean what I'm saying, you know, like he says he's in his eighties, but evidence would argue otherwise. And is he is retiring finally or stepping down as a majority leader? But every time I see him, I still be in the Senate. Yeah, I just I That's what
I was No, no, I would listen to. I was just gonna say when I saw my retirement earlier, I've cleared that he's yeah, he's yeah, but he's no longer the majority leader because we have seen him have several health issues on camera where he literally freezes like the internet does here sometimes.
So he on baby, yeah, we got we got more topics. But I do know that I think we might be surprised by this dude and how he votes these next two years. And I hope surprised in a good way. But we'll see surprised.
Who's surprising you?
I think I think we may all up saying the man ain't gonna be leader, and he's looking down the door, and and he probably didn't run for re election.
He's stillist.
But when you say surprise theory is what specifically you mean? Do you think he might go to the last I get more conservatives, Like, what do you mean.
For inst all? I don't know that it's on the spectrum of of conservative versus liberal. That's not the surprise. I think the matrix is going to be on craziest versus just crazy as it relates to some appointments. So the craziest might not get through on certain things, but crazy still going to So he.
Might support HEAs but he might not support but exactly. Okay, I think you you can.
See that and some of the Republicans, But when you're deciding between Freddy and Jason, you know, I kind of feel like.
The craziest and crazy it's still crazy is going in period. Just know that's the low bar.
Okay, well we got such it's such a low bar. We in hell, so I wanted to speaking of not being in hell. We have an angel among us are one of our producers, Lolo, who was just a gods ending during our tour, and of course all the time
she liked to fact us up check us. While I was googling, she was sending rehabilitative Andrew and I just want to shout her out her birth She just celebrated her birthday and instead of getting loved on and getting all the gifts, Lolo went to be a gift to some other people that she shared a video of her experience with us, and we want to share it with y'all.
Hey Lolo, Hey NLP found.
My name is Lolo.
I'm one of the producers with the show.
Now.
Usually I'm behind the scenes, but today I wanted to do something a little different and share a unique experience that I had. And so in November, just like many of you all, I was feeling a lot of despair and I'm like, dang, it's my birthday. Move. So I decided to travel overseas and go to different countries and volunteer. I went to Bangladesh, I went to Sri Lanka. I went to Jordan and amongst some other places where I got to just kind of explore. And with that I
met so many different people. I was able to experience so many different cultures. My point to all of this is when experiencing those cultures, it really made me feel empowered. I say that because I met so many different people, like women who had no opportunity of being able to own anything because.
That was how it was in their country.
I met people who had no rights, who had no ability to be able to advocate or say anything without being oppressed in their country. And I think about the different ways that we can play a part in policymaking and government in our community. There's so many different avenues and how often sometimes we take that for granted, something as simple as just going to vote. And so I wanted to share this experience, but I also wanted to pose a question with you all about how are you
activating in your power in twenty twenty five. I don't believe that you have to be the next Martin Luther King, but what I will say is we can't just rely on the Angela Rise, the Tiffany Crosses, the Andrew Gillums to be the leaders and the advocate and the voice for us. It's exhausting, but we all have a small role that we can play and really uplifting our community.
So what are you going to do?
How are you going to act in your power in twenty twenty five? I love that?
And Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday. For the rest of the year. Belolo you know, I'm mad a tale about you having a camera up vertically when you know that we got to record the video. But it was just so good and I love that she's always she was committed to love it. But I'm mad about that.
Well, I think, Angela, you know this how black women and our Black women group chat, like we talk about our exhaustion. And I was working the other day and I'll tell y'all, a young woman came up to me and you know, asked, are you Tiffany Cross? And I said yes, and she said, I love Native Land and thank you all for the work that you're doing. And she was there doing some work. She worked for a group Mama Lobby or they basically they helped elect mothers
to office. And so I was poking on on their website. But they were doing this whole retreat and I was telling her, like, you didn't know that black women were on strike. You don't have to do anything this month, but you can rest and relaxed. And she said, you don't wanna take the last two weeks. But after this election,
like we had to get right back to it. So just shout out to all all everybody who's doing something and you know, I just the work that black women do and the way that we are quick to organize and mobilize. So I think it's really awesome that Lolo in that space said I want to give back. I want to focus on other people, and I wish that more of us would do.
That well on there, and you know, that's in service.
It sounds like that's tips called a action.
I din't mean it to be, but.
There's black women. We all strike and then we'll serve you in a little.
Bit and well hopefully when you serve, when you come back around to service, which, by the way, I still debate whether or not black women are out of service. It's just not a luxury. But I will say this much that when we are in service, first be in service to yourself and then through that service, allow yourself to still be served. It's uplifting. It gives me joy. I want to, you know, plan and do for the next And I would just say, there was a listener
question Angela that we passed around. You passed around a couple of weeks ago with a young woman who had an idea about how we can share the load during this administration versus sort of putting it all on just a few of us to sort of track what's happening in this administration. I would love for us to play that maybe next episode and let it be.
An admonishment Thanksgiving.
Oh yeah, Thanksgiving?
Okay, but I missed it? Can we do it one in this one when people?
Maybe?
But that's your call to action?
Action is running video again?
No?
But also we got a request for our viewers. We need you all to tell us your favorite episodes. Yes, that's our collective call action.
Yeah is tag team? This is so.
But we we got caught up with lolo.
But yes, we needed We want to hear from you guys, give us your favorite episodes of Native Land.
It doesn't have to be a whole episode.
You tell us a segment that we did, a story, we told the policy, we uncovered something, we unpacked, a beef like whatever.
It is like, we want to hear from you. What was your favorite moment? So how can they.
Ael part two of that is run that back?
You can do that they should d m us. I would love we love the videos. We'd like to feel connected with y'all because we don't always get to be in person. And while we love the shoutouts that y'all will run up to us in the store or whatever and say you love NLP. We love that too, But please sending your videos to Instagram, stay your name and where you're from, or you can also email us at
hello at native lampod dot com. I'm gonna donate my call to action to my brother and friend, assembly Member Isaac Bryan out of the California State Assembly because he dropped a very important piece of legislation this week. And there's some things that the nl PEP fam can do because Lolo told us we got to still get to work to even though you on strike, you ain't gonna be on strike for this. Well, let's route a clip.
I'm assembly Member Isaac Bryan from California's fifty fifth Assembly district that's Cuver City, Mid City, the West Side, Lamart Park, the Crashop Corridor, and Ladare Eyes. And this week I introduced AB seven. What assimbly Bill seven would do is allow for colleges and universities in California to prioritize applicants who are a descendant of a chatteling slaved person in
this country. The reason I introduced this piece of legislation is because we've seen the attacks on affirmative action going back decades, including Proposition two nine here in California, and we've seen the incoming administration and their plans to gut DEI. In fact, we live at a time right now where diversity, equity, and inclusion are not only demonized as bad words, but on the verge of being criminalized, and we've got to
do something about it. Meanwhile, while all this is in place, legacy admissions are still going on all across the country. If you're related to a major donor, you often have a backdoor inside track and the admissions decision. If you are the relative of somebody who went to a prestigious university, you often have an inside, back door advantage in the admission's decision process. So if we're rewarding legacies of privilege, I think we you also have a conversation about legacies
of harm in this country. It's not about undue advantage. It's about an equal and earned opportunity. That's why I introduced AB seven.
Bless you, I love this.
My call to action as a result of that is, please make sure you go read up on that that bill is giving me so much joy because this white women who benefited from affirmative action. That's another podcast for another day, but I'm gonna tell y'all right now, that made me feel happy when you see folks like Isaac doing the work in spite of the opposition that they're facing, in spite of everybody coming up against us. Walmart On down saying we don't need your DEI and we don't
need y'all. I live for an Isaac Bryan saying, actually, you do need us, and I'm gonna show you how much you need us. It's time for us to get our just due. So shout out to you, Shout out to all of our listeners. As always, we want to remind everyone to please leave us a review and subscribe to Native lamppod. We're available on off platforms and YouTube. New episodes dropped every single Thursday, with the special mini pod every Monday. Please don't forget to follow us on
social media, but most of ull send your comments. We are Angela Raie, Tiffany Cross, and Andrew Gillam and there are six hundred and ninety eight days until the midterm elections. Welcome home, y'all, Alcome home.
Guy's a question before we go, what we talking about on the mini pods.
Morning Slee. Thank you for joining the Natives attentional with the info and all of the latest rock gulum and cross connective to the statements that you leave on our socials. Thank you sincerely for the patients reason for your choice is clear, so grateful and took to execute roads. Thank you for serve, defend and protect the truth even in paste.
Well.
Welcome home to all of the Natives, We thank you.
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