576 - In Praise of Indirect Communication: Is Directness Actually Superior?

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We just have to look at the broader cultural context of where we grew up, what our situation was at home, the people around us, all of those things. And that's something to be aware of regardless of like if you are neurotypical or neurodivergent.

And so I think it's just a a great thing to remind ourselves of that regardless of who you are, we do things differently. All of us do. And so there should be more like kindness and understanding towards that, as opposed to just thinking that one way is right. in any cultural context or in any microculture of, you know, non monogamy, for example. Welcome to the Multi-Amery Podcast. I'm Jace. I'm Emily. And I'm Dedeker.

We believe in looking to the future of relationships, not maintaining the status quo of the past. Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous, swinging, casually dating, or if you just do relationships differently, we see you and we're here for you.

On this episode of the Multi Emery Podcast, we're talking about direct and indirect communication. In the non monogamy community especially, direct communication is lauded as a virtue, yet the actual story isn't that simple. So what does the research say on these two types of communicators and how different cultures might shape the way in which we communicate?

Is indirect communication actually superior? Or is it always the best option to say exactly what you mean? Stick around to the end as we're gonna get into all of that in this episode. And if you're interested in learning about our fundamental communication tools that we reference on this show all the time, check out our book, Multi-Amory, Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers our most used communication tools for all types of relationships.

You can find links to buy it at multiamory dot com slash book or wherever fine books are sold.

So I wanna start off with a little story just to set the stage here. From way back in 2007, do you two remember or know about this thing called med? And, uh, Filter. I had no idea what it was. No yeah. Is this something that goes in cigarettes? Like Reddit before Reddit. Yeah, I guess before Instagram. Yeah, two thousand seven was when the first iPhone came out. I thought that was too much.

No, two thousand seven, I promise. I had one, and I know exactly where I was when I got it. Yes. Okay. Presumably in an hour. Yes. Proto Reddit.

thing out there where people could post questions and talk about like, what is it that I should be doing here essentially and get feedback on it. And so A person posted that they were really frustrated that their friend kept hinting that they wanted to stay over and they kept talking about wanting to stay over, talking about, you know, can I come over and like stay at your house for the weekend kind of thing.

But essentially saying that they wanted to stay over. And the person who was a poster couldn't figure out how to say no to this person. And their wife also like really wanted to save face. And so a lot of the commentary out there was like Just say no. Just Just tell them I don't want you to say. But the other half said that, you know, that person was being rude by even asking or even like implying that they wanted to stay over. And so it was

Yeah, exactly. So it was kind of this back and forth between these two camps of you do need to save face, you need to basically say things like, Oh, I'm busy that weekend or Drop some of your own hints also. Exactly. You do not want them to stay right versus this camp that just says, Let's be direct and let's absolutely say no, I'm sorry, like I'm not available or I would prefer it if you stopped asking, essentially.

So there is this thing of people are out there, they're acting in good faith, presumably, but they end up in this sort of communication chaos of I don't know how to tell you no. I think on this show, and I think generally when it comes to non-monogamy, many people are really big proponents of

direct communication. And I think much of what we have discussed on this show and many of our tools are about directly communicating with the people around us. When you talk about like the Triforce of Communication, for example. That's an example of meta communication and sort of preempting your discussion, for example, with What is it that you want me to do in my communication with you when you are telling me about a thing that is challenging, for instance?

How do you want me to respond? And so I think that often that is an example of direct communication. And that it can be helpful in many ways to directly communicate when there are multiple people involved, multiple partners. But the reality of this situation is some people just don't like to communicate that way. And there are a lot of reasons for this. There are cultural reasons, there are potentially neurodivergent or just maybe families tend to be not direct and everything is kind of

said softly and with context clues, but you sort of have to infer a meaning as opposed to actually knowing. And so I guess just to start off with, did the two of you know where you fall on that spectrum? I think I know where I fall and I think I probably know where the two of you fall. But I'd like to know, like from your family of origin, for instance.

what was the situation that you had growing up in terms of the communication that you had with your family and your peers and has that evolved and continued in your lives today?

I mean mine's mine's changed drastically. Like I definitely think I I grew up in more of a Yeah, more of that you kind of hint or suggest with the hope that then the person offers that, but then if they don't, then everyone's kind of saved face by no one having to say no to anyone and no one having to have had no said to them. Right. That I I think that was more the culture that I grew up in. I don't think it was an extreme. I think some people are on a farther extreme of that end, but that

I'd say more where I started. And then I think later, uh especially again, getting into the whole non-monogamy thing and this idea of being much more direct in our communication, I think also tied a little bit to trying to get over some of the shame that comes from asking for what you want in romantic relationships, but also I think just in general, kind of that trying to get over some of the fear of someone saying no to you, whether that's a friend or a coworker or whatever.

So I I found that doing that, I was like, Okay, yeah, this makes it much more sense. It's much more honest, it's much more direct. But I did find there were certain situations where after the fact realizing that that directly stating what you want can feel like now that person's in a position where they can't say no or they're put in a more uncomfortable place.

of trying to say no. And so I feel like where I've come to now is more often I still prefer more direct, but it's like in the direct asking or like stating what it is you want. Trying to find ways to make it really easy for the other person to say no if they want to. And that both of you can save face, like almost pre giving them excuses so that they can just go, yeah, that one. Right. And be like, oh, you're right.

I am busy tomorrow. Like I have to get up early, like you said. Like you're kinda providing them with excuses with this sort of

I guess we're back to a little bit implicit of like, because I gave you that one, if you choose to use it, I know that I will accept it. I've kind of agreed. I accept that that's a valid excuse I expect you might have. And so Anyway, so I've kinda come from this like less direct to more direct now some version of direct but with this sort of implication of I wanna make it really easy for you to say no. So that when you say yes, it's

clear that you actually wanted to say yes, that I haven't now like forced you into a weird situation.

I have a hard time thinking about my family of origin. I feel like I grew up in a real like Tower of Babel when it comes to communication. How so? Well, something I'm reflecting on is that I think we tend to flatten direct and indirect communication. into certain stereotypes, right? So it's like when I think about indirect communicators, I think about families where we don't talk about emotions, we're very polite, like we keep things very surface level. We're not comfortable going to

more personal, deeper topics, right? And then the assumption that then direct communicators, maybe they come from a family of origin where, yeah, we speak what we mean and we're not afraid to speak our mind and share what's really going on underneath and what we really want. And I do think that those trends can be true, but when I think about the family I grew up in, as I'm like, no, I think I grew up in a family of very loud, very emotional, indirect communicators.

Wow. So that's like a whole other kind of on the spectrum of communication and Yeah. versus direct. Yeah, like you said, one doesn't necessarily equal the other. You can be emotional but also indirect and unemotional and direct. Yeah. Yeah. My dad's side of the family is the very classic, you know, New England roots. We don't talk about very deep, intense personal topics. We stray away from anything that might be vulnerable or embarrassing. We we try to

soften a lot and be more circuitous when asking for a favor and things like that. Like that's very much my dad's side of the family and my mom's side of the family is the more confusing one of like very loud Emotional people who will stamp their feet, but then you might still be left being like, What but what do you want? What do you actually want? I don't know what you want.

Right. Yeah. And I and I think that thinking about how that influenced my communication, especially when I was a kid, is I think there was like this rising spectrum of the more risky a topic feels, the more indirect. I have to go because of being afraid of like emotional blowback or the reaction or things like that. Like Jace was saying, for me, this has changed a lot.

As well, as I've gotten older and I've learned to bring down some of my defenses around certain things, and I've learned, I guess, I don't know, maybe simpler ways of communicating or be more compassionate, or maybe if I'm finding myself having a hard time expressing something or expressing what I want, like maybe I think I have more of an instinct to start to explore.

what's going on there for me? Am I ashamed of something? Am I embarrassed? Am I worried about something? Am I anxious? Right? And kind of trying to tend to that. First.

But I don't know, it's still like I think the softening still sneaks in there sometimes. And then I'm sure we'll get to this later in the episode, but then like also spending a good chunk of the year in Japan, the most indirect, like the biggest collection of indirect communicators in one country in the world also really has baked my noodle as far as changing the ways that I have to communicate with people around me.

Yeah, but but that's I think that's actually relevant, although we probably shouldn't get too far into just talking about Japanese communication because that's a little too niche for this topic. But I do think it's it's really interesting that over the last

whatever ten, eleven years of learning Japanese and trying to understand this better, of thinking it was a lot more subtle than it actually is. And it's just that the social scripts are different. And so to us they may seem subtle, but to a Japanese person it's clear it's Very explicit. Yeah. Right. And and so I think there's also that interesting piece to this. And I think this especially comes up with people who are more neurodivergent, where it's less about

Oh, I can just feel it out. And instead it's like I need to learn what are the patterns, like what are the expectations, what are the scripts that are followed, what are the the kind of rules to this communication. And that that's not always consistent, right? For us the Japan one seems really confusing and has taken a long time to try to learn and it's still a work in progress.

But to think about all the different subcommunities like you were talking about, Emily, that's extra hard there too. Of like what are the rules in this context? That it is a complicated thing to figure out. And I I honestly think in a way, the people who

feel like they're just really good at understanding that. It may just be because they're in one particular communication style and are oblivious to when they're outside of that, but they just plow ahead with their way of doing things and don't realize

that. So I do think it was an interesting thing where like a certain amount of kind of humility or willingness to accept that maybe I'm not always communicating as well as I think I am can be actually really helpful if your goal is to communicate well.

Yeah, that's a really good point. I have dealt with this recently with my partner who his dad is Latin from El Salvador, and then they're also from New England. They're from New York. So yeah, hearing you say that, Dediger. I think is very interesting because I didn't realize but Latin American culture is very high context, which means that meaning is really embedded in relationships, in history, in tone, in gesture, and like shared cultural knowledge and also in silence.

And so this overriding goal is maintaining harmony and saving face. and indirect communicators seek to avoid conflict. They don't want tension or uncomfortable situations. And so this is associated with a lot of homogeneous cultures like Japan. Or China or Korea, so places that, you know, all three of us have been in a lot. But also Latin America, which surprised me. I didn't realize that.

Even though my father is Mexican, I just didn't get to hang out with him much or know him very much and so I wasn't around that. But when I talked about this with my partner, he was like, Oh yeah. Absolutely. Like Latin American culture is super indirect. And I didn't realize that. Because I think in my head I thought that it would be more direct, but it's not.

So that's what high context communication is versus low context communication where the meaning is primarily in words themselves and messages are much more explicit and direct. And don't require the listener to read between the lines as much. And this is more associated with like individualistic culture. Heterogeneous cultures like the US or Germany or any like Scandinavian cultures or Australia.

Yeah, a lot of cultures that have been subject to a lot of immigration patterns. Yeah. Right. And a lot of cultural mixing and that makes sense that then you can't just assume that everyone's coming in with the same cultural values. with the same turns of phrase even, right, that you have to start to be more explicit and rely on specifically a verbalized shared language in order to get your meaning across.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think it must be really interesting and something that we can talk about a little bit more when you are part of multiple cultures, when at home, for instance, all of your family and siblings and parents

only speak one language and therefore you are very immersed in that culture. But then when you go out into the rest of your life and into the world, you might have to take different context clues and deal with a culture that is very different than the one in which you grew up. Totally, exactly. Code switching, very much. And it's important to note that these categories aren't totally separate. They might take aspects of other cultural communication abilities and strengths into account.

And cultural contexts aren't absolutely high or low. You know, a comparison between cultures may find communication differences to a greater or a lesser degree depending on where you live, what your upbringing was like, etcetera. Right. Like if you grew up in a family that was particularly direct, even if your sort of immediate culture in your city or something was less direct, that could also bias it a little bit.

I actually have a relevant story to this'cause I I was working with a client of mine who was Japanese actually, and because of like spending a good chunk of time in Japan and learning the language, right? It's like I try I try as much as possible to bring as much cultural competency as I can when I'm working with Japanese clients specifically. And it is around the direct communication thing, right? You know, the way that I might

advise an American client to have a difficult conversation is very different than the way I might advise a Japanese client. And even this particular client who was from a different part of Japan, even when I was still trying to kind of soften my advice and kind of take a different approach, he was even like,

I don't know, I think that might be an Osaka thing. You Osaka people are much more like open and direct with these things. And I was like, Yeah, even within Japan, these like little subtle nuances of like what's more acceptable as far as how you communicate.

Something that that's kind of funny, a little bit like that, is do y'all remember the craze that was the show Terrace House? Okay. The real world. Yeah, a bunch of young hot people living in a house, but like they still leave and go to their normal jobs, right? And like sometimes date either inside the house or outside the house. But yeah, it was just like that slice of life style reality show. Right. Like there's not a competition. They're just there. Women. Right. It's just their their lives.

And this was kind of this sensation within the US at the time. And went this would have been twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, something like that, close to ten years ago now, I guess. But it was this big deal because Watching it, everyone's so nice to each other. No one comes in and is like, I'm not here to make friends, like none of that stuff that we're used to on our reality shows.

And instead they're all like really polite, they're all really kind, like their conflicts are over things that seem so minor, like putting your towel up nicely on the rack, like that kind of stuff. That sounds...

Lovely. It was lovely, yeah. Yeah. Well what's funny is I was talking to a Japanese person about that show and about how I I find it really interesting'cause it's also really good language practice'cause it's very like everyday conversations that are happening as opposed to action drama, whatever.

But I mentioned about how everyone's, you know, just so nice and polite. And she was like, Right, but like all the drama underneath that. Wow. Right. Like to her watching the show was like what there's a lot of drama on that show. A lot of Subtle stuff. And I was like, I missed all of that. And it was this big eye-opening moment for me of like, I just don't know this language, meaning like.

the cultural language, that it is clear. They're not even being subtle really. They're being clear, just not in a way that I understand right now. And to think that we experience that to a lesser extent within our own more adjacent cultures too is is a I guess an eye opening thing to realize.

Yeah. When I was researching this, the concept of and I'm gonna butcher the studiger, it's reading the air. Oh yeah, cool. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there it is. And the Korean noonshi. So it's this concept of situational communication and that people can read nonverbal and situational cues and are aware of the thoughts, feelings, and needs of the people around them. So that kind of sounds like exactly what you're speaking about, Jace. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Although let me tell you, okay, like'cause I don't want to set up a false dichotomy and I I slip into this sometimes too, is that it's very easy for me to think that like, oh yeah, Japan is the indirect ones and as an American I'm the direct one, right? When if you've ever been an American and hung out with a Dutch person You're gonna learn actually how indirect you are as an American. One hundred percent because I've worked I've worked with a lot of Dutch people and Yes.

Almost every time I I feel like I'm like slapped across the head, like wow. Right. I find working with Germans the same thing. We're just like, gosh, okay, wow, you just really tell me how it is, huh? Totally. My partner lived in the Netherlands for four years and his friend just came from the Netherlands to hang out with us for a couple of days. And yeah, they're super, super direct. And it's kind of funny.

But also like refreshing to me because I find that I'm a pretty direct person as well. And so I think again, that's one of those things where you can't take it personally because you realize like, okay, this is normal.

And I didn't realize this, but in China, they communicate no through a range of phrases and facial expressions and gestures and silence and deferral. And so that goal is to remain polite and save face for everyone. And again, I've spent a lot of time in China and a lot of time in Hong Kong, and I had no idea that that was going on. Of course. And I don't speak the language, but that's very interesting.

Well, I think that's an interesting segue kind of back to your question before, right? Of if you are subtly implying that you want something and I guess the hope there from that person would be I'm communicating this subtly in such a way that it's still clear enough to the person receiving my message that like this is what I want.

And I guess the thing that may be breaking down in this communication that seems like it's going on is they wanna say no, but they don't know how. And to say directly no to a question that wasn't asked. is hard. Yeah. And so there's a little bit of this like, I don't know how to say no in that language is what's going on in that situation. Really what's going on is is like not understanding each other's language. And I'm actually curious. I don't know what the answer would be there.

But I'm curious if you have known people who do communicate more indirectly where there was kind of a way to say no without saying it. Like I feel like for me, if I'm trying to think of anything analogous to this. I can think of a particular friend who we had to kind of learn this communication with each other over several years of knowing each other, but was where if he would imply a thing that I could answer with something about

my busyness or like what I had going on the next day or something I had to do later that night and then he would understand that meant, sorry, I can't go out or I can't hang out or something like that. But it it kind of took us a while to get there at first. When you say it took us a while, like was there any meta communication happening? No, never directly. We've had to figure out our dance.

We just had to figure out the dance. Yeah. And I think that's is kinda weird now that I'm thinking back on it. Like, yeah, why didn't we just have a meta communication about that? But I think that's the thing, is if someone's doing indirect communication

They're not setting you up to think they're welcome to meta communicating and talking about how do I subtly say no to you? Yeah. Like that feels weird in that case. But your thing about Chinese makes a lot of sense. And in Japanese it's the same thing, right? Like the simple version is if someone asks you if you want to do something, like, Oh, do you want to go get lunch? And they say, that's a little that means no. That's very

Japanese person, it's not vague at all. It is just saying absolutely not. Like it's so That's interesting. And I found that's actually backfired for me'cause I'll sometimes be like, Oh hm, that's a little tricky, but I might be able to do that but as soon as I've said that that might be a little tricky, they're like, Oh oh, so so sorry. Sorry, never mind. So And you're like, Whoops. Wow. So with these friends in in the I keep wanting to call it Metasploit, but that's not it. Filter bomb?

Mm. Yeah. You almost were there. But yeah, it was I think it's a little bit of that. It's like what's the way to say no to this person? And it's hard to know without knowing how that person communicates. Like how would they say no to you if you implied you wanted something? See, I think that at least the example that's coming to mind most recently for me was it was in a past romantic relationship and where I feel like someone was dancing around like a particular escalation they were hoping for.

as kind of like the next step of escalation. But they were like really dancing around it a lot. You know, a lot of implication. There wasn't any of the Hey, let's sit down and like talk about where we see this heading or what we want or I just want to tell you I'm interested in this, right? Which I get is risky. I totally get. That's emotionally risky. Yeah. So like no fault to this person for dancing around it.

But the way that I responded was I r had to reach a point of finally just being like, Okay, I'm just gonna say, listen, I think I'm picking up on this hint that you're dropping that this is something you that you would like. And if that is the case, that that's something that you would like, here's my response to that. And so

And how did that go down? Like how was that received? Yeah, that's really interesting.'Cause that's something that I didn't even get that much into, but when it comes to like very specific relationship asks stuff and then also the fear of being told no and the fear on the other person's side of having to maybe say no. And then those two things potentially in conflict is very scary.

Thinking back on it, I think that if I was firing on all cylinders and being the best communicator possible, I probably would have paused. And been like, hey, I think that I'm noticing this and I and you've said this thing and you said this thing and you said this thing and I think I'm interpreting that to mean that this is what you want. Is that correct? And then I would have shut my mouth and let them And let them speak.

Whether or not that was correct or not. Now I will say I did get it right. I was correct in my assumption. But I sort of delivered it in like I think this is what you want, and if this is what you want, this is my response to it. I don't think I can offer that or whatever it was that I said, right? So yeah. So this whole thing about whether being indirect or direct is easier to say no to is making me think about

Again, this this story that you shared, Emily, is this person is implying it. And I think I get the sense that the question asker was also saying they were implying, I'm busy, I've got stuff tomorrow, I But the person who was subtly implying they want to stay over wasn't taking no for an answer. Whether they didn't understand it or they didn't want to accept that answer is a different thing. And that's where I think we we can also conflate the two. Cause some people direct feels like

Like if I'm direct, that also means I'm gonna bully them into doing what I want. And then I think this person is indirectly bullying, perhaps, and that we don't often talk about that as much. But an example of direct bullying I've found is there was a a person who wanted to do a collaboration with multiamory. This was years ago, I'm not gonna name names, but you know, he had a conversation about what This is like during the pandemic, right? Yeah.

Yeah. It was during the pandemic. It was you know, it's sort of a a a a swinging related thing. And I was like, Okay, it seems sort of interesting, but when I talked to him, it was very clearly As in they were a swinging content creator. Like they wanted to collaborate with us to create something. They didn't it's not like they wanted to swing with us. Right, you're right. Good clarification. Different negotiation. Right.

Maybe they did. I we didn't get there. But no, this was like a a collaboration on like events and promotion and stuff like that. And I got the sense of I I don't think this is right for our audience. This doesn't this doesn't fit with

our vibe, not because it's swinging, but just the way they were going about it. And I was kinda like, Yeah, I don't think that's gonna work. And he pushed back and kind of doubled down. I'm like, no, I think that, you know, this would be a good fit and here's why. And I was like, no, I really don't think that's

that's right for our audience and here's why. And then he doubled down again. And then more directly I was like, nope, sorry, this isn't this isn't a good fit for us. And he kept doubling down. Wow. And what's funny is after that fact I was like, huh. Is this how you are at swinging parties when a woman says no she doesn't want to sleep with you? Yes. I have a feeling you are. Yes. But I think that's an example of a direct pushiness. Yeah.

But I think this question is about an indirect pushiness. And I think that's also possible. So I think you could be polite or rude in both these situations as the asker here.

I want to clarify because I'm looking back at the actual post, the friend continuously self-invited themselves to stay with them. And then the poster was constantly vague or just making up vague excuses and trying to be pretty indirect. But that wasn't really working and so they need a better solution. Okay. So it's a little different. Yeah.

It's a little different, but like some of the respondents said things like, say you're fostering a ferret in the spare bedroom and the door has to remain shut. Um, stuff like that. And then of course, like the more straightforward one that you just say no. But I do think that that could have happened in a different scenario, that both people are being indirect.

I I've experienced that kind of indirect bullying. And I've probably been an indirect bully in the past too. Again, before I'cause I started more indirect, became more direct and realized that neither was quite the answer I was looking for. in terms of how to be not only a good communicator that's good meaning accurate communicator, but also good as in polite and kind and a good team player in communication. And that's a different category there too.

Jace, I did want to ask because you also spent a lot of time in a different place, which was Russia, how was that being over there and and dealing with that type of communication? I think that there's other cultures that do a similar thing, is just there's not a lot of warmth that a person will give you until they really mean it. Versus us in the US, especially on the West Coast.

are really smiley and inviting and welcoming. Like if we work in customer service or even just a normal person, you're gonna smile, y you know, you'll be friendly. Not New York. If you're sort of ultimately like, eh, no. But in Russia is like an extreme of that. It's like a shopkeeper is just like what? That's it. That kind of very direct. They do actually help you. They just don't give that friendly vibe, which was really off putting to me at first.

But eventually once I got used to it, it was this like, oh no, actually you're on average more helpful than a lot of these very friendly customer support people and like shopkeepers and stuff in the US who are really friendly, but then basically say no to everything you ask. And so it was this weird difference there. Yeah, when I used to be in the service industry and then waited on anyone who was Slavic or from Russia or Ukraine or anywhere along those lines

I would walk up to a table and be smiling and they would not smile at all and just be like very stone faced, I guess. But they generally were pretty polite and fine and good customers. It just was That that sort of I'm smiling at you, you smile back at me didn't happen. Yeah. Correct. Which was surprising at first. There were situations where Americans would get themselves into trouble in Russia because of that.

Yes. One of those was like if we would go out to clubs and stuff like that, like with the other students who were doing the foreign exchange thing that I was doing at the time or just friends that I knew when I went back afterward to do nonprofit work. that they would be smiling at the men around who wanted to dance with them or whatever, just as being polite, normal, civil people. And that meant in that culture, I'm interested in you. I'm very interested in you.

I ran into that when I was in Turkey. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Again, just in like service situations, right? Like going up to the freaking like simit cellar on the street and I'm just like gonna smile at him'cause I'm just like that's what I'm used to. Like, hey, how's it going? Like one simit please and he was like, Oh hello. I'm off my shift in two hours. You wanna go out? Yeah. And so I had to be the bad guy in a few situations. Goodness.

clubs were like, then this guy won't leave these women alone and they're clearly uncomfortable with this. But they're still smiling because they're being polite American women. And I had to be the one to pull the guy aside and be like, look, man they're not interested in you. And he's like, no, no, they are. I'm like, trust me, like they're not. And and trying to communicate that was hard because he's like, every other sign is telling me yes.

So it's hard for me to believe you just on the fact that you're part of their friend group. Um and so it was this tricky situation there. And anyway, so just yeah, just another example of it's not that one was communicating well and the other wasn't. They were just speaking different nonverbal languages. Absolutely.

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All right. I want to talk about this bias towards directness and maybe why that's not necessarily the right thing. All the time. We talked about this bias a little bit in terms of like non-monogamy, but there's also, of course, this Western slash kind of American bias that we have. where we think that indirect communication is not as good in many ways as direct communication. And there's sort of this pervasive distrust of indirectness at times.

And maybe, you know, some people saying that directness is more logical and it's more aligned with people in situations of power. because if you are a powerful individual, then you can be direct and explicit in your communication. And I think that sometimes direct people also will see those who are indirect as maybe passive aggressive. Or weak even or manipulative or vague, deceptive, all of those things, which all feel to me like kind of negative terms.

Huh. Well I think I think it's interesting that yeah, it makes sense that there would be this trend towards if you are more powerful. And I imagine that we could make the argument that this could go whether you're powerful politically or financially or just within your little microcosm of your household, if you're like a decision maker or something like that that

You are in a position where if you ask for something directly, the conditions are more favorable for you to be able to get it, perhaps, without consequence. Yeah. And therefore, maybe being direct is less of an emotional risk.

for you personally. Again, I don't want to put any moral implication on it that that means that that person is bad, but I guess trying to zoom out and see the big picture about how certain conditions could just make it more favorable for you to be direct instead of needing to soften hedge. The indirect. Yeah.

Yeah, it it also makes me go back to the whole when you say direct in this context and I don't know how people interpret that, but when you say direct, do you also mean kind of like I'm telling you what I want with the expectation you're just gonna do it? You're gonna say yes. Or is it direct, but leaving it open for you to say no? And I think that also varies with the power level too, right? Ironically, I think that the more power you have, the more easy you should make it to say no to you.

I agree. That's not usually how that goes. Well, exactly. I mean, in my head this goes to this sort of like American ideal CEO in power that has absolute power over everyone and everything within a company, for instance. and that everyone else involved just sort of has to be subservient towards them and

doesn't necessarily get to say no because they're fearful of their job or they're fearful of any other number of things happening to them within that community and context. So while I think many Americans and many Western people say that that's like a great thing to aspire to become. I think also there's a lot of challenges with that for the reasons that you just said.

And again, not to say that this is bad if this is the way in which you communicate, but there are some challenges with that for sure. So I want to talk about indirectness and what it can actually do really well. in many cases, indirectness can preserve relationships. I think that's usually the goal, right? It's like I want to avoid conflict and preserve our closeness, whether you say yes or not to the thing I'm asking, I guess.

Absolutely. I think it can protect dignity, which it seems like in Japanese culture and probably Chinese culture, that's very much a thing as well that it is trying to do. You know, trying to maintain harmony, trying to save face. And in higher context culture, people develop deep and often unconscious understandings of what is expected, which is exactly what you were talking about.

There's also a sense of kind of building trust over a long period of time because you're getting to know sort of what's underneath the surface within an individual. as opposed to just like being super direct, like I say what I mean, which is great, but it's not necessarily allowing for as much like nuance and all of those things that that we've talked about in terms of the subtleties of indirectness that can happen and that can kind of build

understanding a person at sort of their core and all of the nuances of their communication as opposed to just like they say what they mean, that's it. I know that that's always what I'm going to get with this person. Yeah, it's it's interesting to think about that too, in terms of if you start with stating really clearly what it is you want or maybe what it is you think about something.

Yeah. You've stated that and then it's almost like a secondary step would be elaborating on why you want that thing and how you feel about it and kind of the other context versus the indirect route usually starts with Here's my feelings and my thoughts about this and then kind of indirectly builds up to implying that I would then want this or I'd think this because of it.

And so it yeah, it is interesting that they're kind of starting from different pieces of information, maybe prioritizing the importance of one over the other. Like is the reason and the feeling more important or is the the result of this is what I think or what I want more important? There is a Canadian cognitive psychologist and psycholinguist named Steven Pinker, who has done some Oh yeah, Pinker. We've we've referenced Pinker before on this show.

Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. He's done work on indirect speech, and he talks about the plausible deniability as social lubricant. Mm. Yeah. Uh yeah. So true. Yeah, his argument is that indirect requests allow for plausible deniability. So a cooperative listener can accept, but an uncooperative one cannot react adversarily. So I guess like exactly what you were talking about, Jace, there. It's not manipulation, it's social grace.

Right. Like both parties can save face. You can just be like, Oh, well, I'm gonna take off and it's like okay, cool and it's like I never asked you to hang out later. You never said no, we're all good. Yeah. Nobody is upset in any way. Ja. Another linguist named Deborah Tannin said that indirectness is universal. Indirectness is a fundamental element in human communication. We all use indirect communication strategies at times and in certain circumstances.

And we may mean more than we say and we gather meaning from others beyond the words that they use. So even if we are direct in most of our communication, there's always going to be indirect things that we have to look at and think about.

and hope that did I get this correctly here? Am I inferring correctly? I mean, even Dedeker, what you were talking about, that somebody in your life who you were dating was being fairly subtle, not straight out saying what it is that they wanted, and you over time were inferring, okay, I think that this is what you mean, and you had to address it at some point, but the you know, picking up on context clues from that standpoint.

Well what makes this so tricky, I think, especially in the context of a romantic relationship is the I think the line gets blurred between I'm trying to communicate something about my wants to you indirectly. That's like one end of the spectrum, but that's on the same spectrum with just I'm just Doing a temperature check.

Yeah. Right. Like I'm just kind of like dropping in an idea or dropping in something in a very circuitous way, not to jump straight to, oh, I hope that they pick up on the hint and give me what I want, but literally just to be like, I just want to see how they respond to this. idea of I don't know. Like

getting married someday or respond to this idea of like cohabiting or that that was not what the situation was. But yeah, I think this is something that we do all the time, even in work situations too, right? Of like

that it may not be straight at this point of I'm dropping in all these hints and hoping that you pick up on them so that I can get what I want. It's like I'm starting way back at like step negative fifty just to try to start doing some of that reading of the room and and temperature checking. Yeah. And I I think that's that's interesting too, that I think in asking these questions when we ask people about direct or indirect, is it that I'm directly or indirectly asking for something, or is it

I'm directly or indirectly asking for a temperature check, or is it I'm actively or indirectly trying to convince you of something? I think that's also another angle that we haven't even really looked at of Yeah. By being indirect, maybe I feel like I can nudge you closer to something that you might say no to if I just asked you directly.

Yeah, I mean there are pros and cons and potentially like nefarious situations that you can get in on either end. And I do think we should examine briefly when these two styles collide and then how to deal with it and how to bridge that gap. Because I do think that there are times when maybe you're a very direct communicator, your partner is not. and those two things come to a head and objectively like neither is wrong necessarily, but I do think that they can create a clash in perspectives.

I know for instance a couple of weeks ago this came up in my relationship where I was going to a conference and my partner was going to the same conference. And my partner wanted to stay with his friend and I was trying to weigh, well, can I stay with that person too or do I need to figure out my own accommodations?

And I'd never met this friend, but I was like, I'm your girlfriend, it's probably chill. And he was like, I don't really wanna ask because I feel like if I ask, he's going to feel as though, yeah, I have to let her stay, even though he doesn't know who you are. We don't know like Where are we gonna be at all times? Are you gonna be alone with them? Is that gonna be weird? And he's like, I don't even wanna ask them because if I do, I feel like they're gonna feel as though they need to say yes.

Even the act of asking is gonna be putting too much pressure on them to say.

I've now forced them. Which to me was like just ask. You know, I was like, come on. And I remember talking about. Just ask, give him an out. Exactly. Like it's I remember speaking to the two of you about this and you brought this up, Dedeker, about well, this feels classic ask versus guest culture that to him it it is rude to ask because then he's gonna feel as though he can't say no.

Whereas to me I'm like, say no, it's fine. You know, let's just put it out there and hear whether or not it's okay. And if you say no, that's fine with me. But some people don't operate that way. Well and it it also raises all these interesting questions of is this how the friend communicates or is that

just how your boyfriend communicates, right? It's like hard to know there. And then the other one is now that we're having this conversation today, maybe traveling back in time, I would have been like, what if you indirectly implied that that might be nice? Right, like bring up in conversation. My girlfriend's coming out of the game. My girlfriend's coming with me. I don't think Emily can do that. No, not you, him. He'd have to do Yeah, maybe. You're right. Some 4D chest.

Yes. Right, exactly. If that's the language you're gonna speak, then that's the language we'll speak, right? Of like just mention the fact that I'm coming and that I'm trying to figure out where to stay. I might be staying with a friend of mine in his hotel room, implying that they'd be like, Oh, why doesn't she stay with us? That's silly for her to do that. Maybe that could have been an option. Okay, but no, that would drive me nuts. Like if yeah, if I was in the waiting room. This person.

I know. No, but I mean like if I was in Emily's position Hmm. I know that would drive me nuts. Yes. As you know. Because I uh like the whole time it'd be like, Okay, yes, but I n I just know in my pocket we have a more effective medicine that we could use here. I guess, I know. Why don't we just use it? But what but what if it's not, right? What if that person does communicate the same way and to ask that directly would be to put them in a bind where they can't say no?

They're allergic to that medicine, Dudeker. That's the thing though. I did hang out with this person, this friend of my boyfriend's, and I felt like if I had stayed there, it would have been super chill. Oh. Right. I am a direct communicator and my partner is less of that. And this has come up from time to time, especially when dealing with other people in his life, and I'm also there. There is like a clash. And now again, nobody's wrong, even though I felt like I was right. But they feel wrong.

Yeah. But but I am seeing like this other way in which people kind of deal with the potential of I need to save face here or I need to give my friend an out. And by just like saying nothing or not even putting that question on the table, like that's the out that I'm giving my friend. I just I don't even want to go there.

So I think it it it would have been helpful for me if I'm looking back at the situation again, like you said, Dedeker, if I can go back in time and and know what I know now. What I would have liked to have done is have a little bit of self-awareness around the entire situation, know where I fall on the spectrum of indirect versus direct and where my partner falls on that spectrum. And then try to meta communicate better so

Talk about our communication styles, talk about I sense here that you don't want to ask him about this and that you would prefer me to have my own accommodations. Am I correct here? And then not take that necessarily personally. In other instances, we've talked about the triforce of communication, of course, and that might be a really good thing for you to do when you're dealing with direct versus indirect communication.

Cause your partner may very much just want you to know what it is that they're thinking or what it is that they want. And you might not be that clued in on it. And so if you are direct with them, just like what kind of communication do you want from me here? Do you want to just share a story? Do you want me to cuddle you and love you and say poor baby? Or do you want advice and help? That's really helpful in some of these scenarios. And always have some curiosity instead of judgment.

So this is just like a cross cultural encounter potentially. And I'm talking about not cultures across, you know, the world, but even just cultures and our own microcultures of the ways in which we grow up. It's not necessarily a character flaw, even though I felt like I was right. It's not necessarily that I was right. It's just a difference. Well I think that's a key barrier. So I do think when it comes to this, because

our ways of communicating feel so ingrained and we've had to work so hard to figure out what works for us that it feels like I've figured out the right answer now. And when someone is so different, it's like you couldn't possibly be right. I could tolerate a little difference. yeah but that's So different. Do you know how many hours of a podcast I've recorded about communication? But for anyone, right? Like how many years I've spent figuring this out? I focus my whole freaking life on this.

Yeah, no totaling. that idea though of like staying staying curious and maybe trying to figure out how to stay collaborative. I feel like that would be my advice to you and and your boyfriend Emily is like Maybe there is a way to collaborate on that. To be like, okay, you I think I've identified now. Here's something about how you communicate. How can we make that work for both of us? Of how can I make sure to help you save face in the way you want to?

but also still communicate to you what it is that I want or get you to communicate with your friends on my behalf or whatever it is, right? I do think that's interesting to kind of get curious about it and explore, hey, how can we make this work for us rather than just trying to decide who's right. Totally. And I think being sensitive but clear and then also gentle but assertive and not avoidant or rigid, all of those things are really good.

In that specific scenario or any scenarios that may happen, dear listener. Before we move on to some interesting insights, we're going to take a quick break to talk about our sponsors again for this show. Thank you to all of them for supporting us. Please do use our promo codes and our links in the show description. That does really help us out a lot.

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I did want to discuss non monogamy regarding all of this because again, I think that a lot of people in the non monogamous community will generally try to be very explicit in their communication. But I do think that there can be a challenge sometimes where partners who do not communicate in this very explicit way can be marginalized.

And there can be this sense that the relationship requires this very like radical verbal directness to function well. But that might be marginalizing people who are more introverted or who have these sort of high context cultures or again who are neurodivergent or who process emotions slowly or differently than those who just go out and like say what they feel and what they think at all times.

And so I do think that in terms of non monogamy, especially when you're getting into more relationships, this is really something to think about. and to try not to alienate people who just communicate differently than you do, like we were talking about in the last section. to be curious about rather than angry or upset because a person is not doing something exactly the way that you are. Right.

I did want to touch briefly on neurodivergence a bit in terms of this ask versus guess culture, because again, this intersects a lot with our non monogamous culture as well. There was a study done in March of 2023 called A Conceptual Framework for Understanding the Cultural and Contextual Factors on Autism Across the Globe. And this got into discussing autism around the world and how these cultural cues are very different for people not in Western societies. So again

Mm. We can still fall victim to this assuming oh, this is how it works everywhere, it's the same. Yeah. Yeah, they found in China a delay in speech is often interpreted as a good sign. There is a saying that a child that speaks late will be more intelligent than its peers in the future. And so even if speech delay is recognized, cultural beliefs may affect the interpretation of this delay and may affect if and when help is sought. Oh yeah, that is interesting.

And then in Western culture, like lack of eye contact is a common symptom of deficits in nonverbal communication, but again In Chinese culture, making direct eye contact with adults is considered impolite, especially for kids. And so this like nonverbal communication is very different for people in in these cultures than, you know, our Western cultures where that's seen as a bad thing.

Yeah, it's and it's the same in Japan. I I don't know about the kids thing, but I know it's a meme online that Japanese people get freaked out by how much Western people want to make eye contact. Yeah, they're like, Oh my god, please stop. Wow, that's really interesting. I I love it because I I don't love making eye contact except for that. I'm not always great at it. No one expects that from me.

So it's like the ways that we look at neurodivergence from our particular Western American lens, the things that we look at and say, like, Oh, that's like maybe not very functional communication or this is a way these people communicate differently that we need to adjust to. That's just like one particular set of adapting to communicating with someone who's neurodivergent that may look like a very different set of strategies. in different cultures. It doesn't look the same around the world.

Totally. And, you know, many autistic people, especially in our Western cultures, are like more natural, explicit communicators and they prefer direct communication, but sometimes they have these more low context cultures around them. And so that is also in many ways learned behavior. And I think that, yeah, we just have to look at the broader cultural context of where we grew up.

what our situation was at home, the people around us, all of those things. And that's something to be aware of regardless of like if you are neurotypical or neurodivergent. And so I think it it's just a a great thing to remind ourselves of that regardless of who you are, we do things differently. All of us do. And so there should be more like kindness and understanding towards that.

as opposed to just thinking that one way is right in any cultural context or in any microculture of, you know, non-monogamy, for example.

I I think this is so fascinating. I was I was recently unrelated to this. looking at dyslexia and what that looks like in other languages and how it shows up very differently. And there are actually multiple types of dyslexia depending on how that language functions, like a kanji based language like Chinese or Japanese. It's just such a cool example of how the world is a lot bigger than we can think sometimes and And our brains are all just different. Yeah, exactly.

I love that. I just have five quick practical tools for you. We talked about some of these already, but Try to identify your default style and then also be honest about where it comes from. Is this your family? Is this your culture? Is this, you know, your neurology? Is it trauma perhaps?

Is it that you learned from a past relationship that you have to act a certain way and now that's the way that you are in most relationships? Are there things that can move and change and shift? Or is that the way that feels best for you? And if that is, then meta communicate that style to your partners and your loved ones before hard conversations happen, especially across style differences.

try to resist this idea that direct or indirect is superior. The goal is understanding, not conformity to just one way of thinking. And then in nonmonogamous relationships, be very explicit in discussing your communication style as part of the relationship conversation, not just about like your boundaries and your agreements, but how is it that you would like to be communicated with

across most things, across the ways in which you discuss your emotions and what it is that you want to do on a weekly or daily basis with this person. Try to see how these types of communication patterns fit within that as well. And then if you are in cross style relationships where one person is direct and one person is indirect, try to be curious.

what are they trying to protect or offer me with their communication? Is a much better question than like, why won't they just say what they mean? Try to get underneath the surface there. What is their goal rather than just Why won't they do the thing that I want them to do?

And finally, we have a question for you all that's going to be on our Instagram stories. And that's just, are you a direct communicator or an indirect communicator? How about your partners? How does this show up in your relationships?

And the best place to share your thoughts with other listeners is in the episode discussion channel in our Discord server, or you can post in our private Facebook group. You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to multiamory.com slash join. In addition, you can share with us publicly on Instagram at multiamory underscore podcast. Multiamory is created and produced by Jace Lindgren, Dedeker Winston, and me, Emily Matlack.

Our production assistant is Carson Collins. Our theme song is Forms I Know I Did by Josh and Onand from the Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode's page on multiamory.com.